Talk:Madonna

Jesus Luz

You could add that Jesus Luz is a Brazillian model and the two met in a photo shoot for W magazine, when Madonna was in Brazil during her Sticky and Sweet Tour.

Middle name Veronica

Just wondered where her second middle name Veronica came from, is appears to not be a birth name according to the article. It says also known as.... I've read her name in other places before with and without Veronica, but with no explaination. Carlwev (talk) 18:22, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Criticism section

To see why this does not generally lead to wp:BALANCE consider if the article began with "Madonna is a much criticized singer..." and went downhill from there... then, a single section titled something like "positive reviews" where anything good was allowed to be posted.

The criticisms should be in the bits of the article to which they relate, with their sources, in very general.- sinneed (talk) 05:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Especially if the criticism section is like the one recently inserted. It was poorly sourced, and didn't actually lend much understanding to the nature and context of the criticisms, just that some people don't rate her and she's pissed off the vatican. It's much better to have the criticisms in the sections that they correspond to.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 08:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

That said, the Legacy section is curiously absent of criticism of her overall musical value and ability, when such criticism exists. Perhaps someone wants to put the stuff by Joni Mitchell etc. somewhere in there? At the moment "she bestrides the cultural world like a colossus" wouldn't be out of place in the text as it stands.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 08:43, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

This article reads more like a fan page than an objective article about the subject. That Joni Mitchell quotation, for instance, absolutely needs to stay. If you want to incorporate it into other parts of the article, that is fine. But simply deleting all of the material in the "Criticism" sesction is actually a form of vandalism, since other people put a lot of work into documenting this with valid references. Boab (talk) 14:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Please see wp:criticism. That should answer your querries. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 14:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The word "criticism" should not have an exclusively negative connotation, and yet its application in this context is entirely negative. Criticism can be positive, negative and all the shades in between, but the section only discussed negative things. It's a carefully chosen shopping list of complaints thrown randomly into one section where they do not connect to the main part of the article. It creates imbalance because it allows for anything negative, whether important or trivial, to be inserted, and I would be just as concerned if we had a section called "Praise". Some of the points are worthwhile. For example, Joni Mitchell's comment is valuable. On the other hand, "Other popular entertainers like Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, and Mariah Carey[citation needed] have expressed disapproval of her artistic abilities, disdain, or criticism against her image and work." is rubbish. It's not cited and it's vague. They disapprove? Madonna probably disapproves of them too. Why do they disapprove? What do they say? It has no value at all. The comments about the Pope and the Vatican are fine, but they are already in the article, in an abbreviated form. It's just repeating what is already stated twice in the article. Then there is "However,she is a keen sports woman herself and often works out in the gym and does training runs, and is believed to have run several times in the British 10K,a central London charity race held near to where she owns a large house." It has nothing to do with any kind of critical commentary. Copying and pasting content that has been intentionally removed is never a good idea, because it returns the bad and the good,and it dismisses the intention of the editors who chose to remove it. It's unfair to call removal of the section a kind of vandalism. I could say the same about returning it, but name-calling is not going to help anybody. The amount of time other editors put into creating it is not relevant. The only consideration is the value of material itself. Why not identify the important parts and integrate them into the article? Rossrs (talk) 14:58, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Boab, I think you need reminding to act in good faith. First of all, your edit note says no reasons were given for removing what you put in, when this was simply not true. You were directed to the talk page in the edit summary removing your edits to see the reasons for doing so. Secondly, it's been stated already buy a couple of us where criticisms should be placed; no one has said they shouldn't be in the article at all. Please don't imply that people have said this. Criticisms simply need to be put in those sections that the criticisms apply to. For example, the vatican's complaints apply to specific tours, while Joni Mitchell's complaints perhaps apply to her legacy. (although I haven't checked the context/year where Joni Mitchell made her comments, but it's worth doing so in case we misrepresent Mitchell's view of Madonna now.) As I stated above, I agree that parts of the article read too much like fandom. The solution is to make them read more neutrally, not to add in a "who hates Madonna" addendum at the end. Please feel free to add (properly sourced) criticisms throughout the article. I hope it's clear now that there is a consensus that this is the way to balance the article.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I have to point out the legacy section starts off with "Rodger Streitmatter reported in his book Sex Sells! (2004) that "from the moment Madonna burst onto the nation's radar screen in the mid-1980s, she did everything in her power to shock the public, and her efforts paid off".[200] He further commented, "The reigning Queen of Pop thrived on the criticism, and continued, throughout the decade, to reiterate the most fundamental of her issues by consistently celebrating women's sexual power." It may not be in depth, but it can always be expanded. Madonna has made her criticisms a large part of her public persona. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 01:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

That's clearly a quote in support of Madonna. It's an example of why the article feels a little unencyclopaedic. The trick is to keep the liveliness of that kind of material without what for at least the non-Madonna fans here is an overall impression of gush.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:47, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

My point is that even with legitimate criticism of her talent, she turned around and use them to support her public persona - Most notably her religious and sexual themes. The musical style section should discuss her singing/songwriting criticisms while the legacy could discuss how her negative publicity actually did end up working to her advantage. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 06:53, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Sory, but Wikipedia is not the place to buff up someone's image. In no way should an article be deliberately structured to show someone in either a good or a bad light. You might need to revisit WP:NPOV, in particular WP:STRUCTURE.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:11, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

You've taken what I've said completely out of context. I'm not trying to "puff up" Madonna's image: rather I am making a point that its a fact of academic/critical commentary that she did that herself by using negative publicity in order to make herself look like a rebel and therefore appealing to non-conformers. An example:

In embracing pop discourse, rather than rock, Madonna's eroticized images expose images as artifice and play on the negative connotations attached to women. Some of the controversy Madonna generates has to do with her pop reproduction of the lowest form of aesthetic culture, her commercialism, and the presumably formulaic, and trivial pop music she produces. It is, however, largely because she plays on "people's idea of what is humiliating to women" that Madonna has become a controversial figure in academic and popular discourse. Madonna enters the cultural scene following both the 1970s Women's Liberation movement and the 1980s industrialization of academic feminism and provokes debates about not just "postmodernism" but "postfeminism" as well.

—A. Metz, Carol Benson, The Madonna Companion P. 276

You can look though my entire editing history to see that I adhere strictly to WP:NPOV, especially when its concerns WP:BLP. That includes acknowledging what is verifiable. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 10:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Having managed to unpick the information in the legacy section, I now see what you were trying to say, and apologise for being so direct. I still disagree with it as something encyclopaedic to say -at least in the way you've been phrasing it. The quotation you cite does not mean that she has turned criticism around to her benefit; it is that she has used paradoxes and contradictions within feminism and within the commodifying processes of pop music to her advantage. Turning a criticism to a benefit would be making herself, for example, stronger by using criticism of Body of Evidence. What the quotation mentions is controversy, not criticism as such. The way you've phrased it, it sounds like she's been knocked down and got back up again to fight, which I think is a misrepresentation of the sources you quote.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying and your concerns Vsevolod, but what Book is saying is correct in this case. Her criticisms were infact turned aorund to suit herself, and that's not fancruft or Undue balance on the article's part. This is what happened. Book knows about this very well and his point is well-justified. And the article doesnot "buff" up Madonna's image. It reflects on it from the critics point of view only. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 07:51, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Hold on. I think I've identified what's wrong with the legacy section. It's structured according to sources, (rather like - sorry - a first year undergrad essay), and not according to topics/ideas. This is why to the non-Madonnaite it looks like a jumble of praise, while to fans (who have this information structured in their heads) it all just appears true. It needs to be organised into different themes (not with headings, the paragraphing can do the work). Success (measured by numbers), influence on younger female artists, femininist/post-feminist icon, the nature of her reinventions and so on. At the moment the first paragraph begins with a comparison to Bowie, goes through her shock tactics, her business acumen and ends with what it should start with, the Rolling Stone quote. Other material relating to each of these topics is spread over the next few paragraphs. It's really important to organise these analytical sections, as otherwise it's very difficult for people outside the Madonnaverse to edit it for quality and help it back to good article status. I can make a start, to show what I mean, if there are no objections. I promise not to take anything out, unless I can't find a place for it, in which case I'll bring it here.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 08:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes you can start. What you proposed definitely sounds good and promising. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 08:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

OK. I've taken out the Cross reference to the Queen of pop in the mid-1980s, as this is legacy, not beginning of career. I took out the stuff about Madonna Studies considering her role as a commodity; it should go back in somewhere, but expanded. That plant is still in, but I'd seriously recommend taking it out from legacy. It's not what she's notable for. Perhaps someone could put it where it would fit better.

The main thing to say now is that it's clear where material is lacking - her business achievements and more sourcing on her reinvention. So right now it may look a little worse than before, I believe it's in a better position to be improved.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 09:29, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Lead

I don't think Rosanna Arquette's BAFTA belongs in the lead. The lead should focus on Madonna. Rossrs (talk) 22:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I've taken it out. I just want to get rid of the impression that people appreciating her appearance in Desperately Seeking Susan was somehow an important step on her way to stardom; she was already famous enough for it to overwhelm the film's other publicity.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 00:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

What you did Vsevolod looks fine, however you undid one change of mine previously. That was simply inserting an unsourced fact in the lead regarding the billing. I tried searching for this fact in books and websites, but couldnot find anyting reliable. :( --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

It's the section on the movie that needs expanding and refs, but in a short while I'll have time to add those. Look on google books for DSS Madonna and "vehicle", and it comes up.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Refs are in now. I think I was probably unjustified originally to write that Madonna had higher billing (sources are not clear on this), but I've linked to a (very RS) ref that is one of many that note the film became seen as a vehicle for Madonna. The Arquette supporting actress BAFTA is odd given Arquette's main role, but I can't find an RS that makes the link between the vehicularity of the film and Arquette's effective demotion; making the link would be WP:OR#SYNTH. (I actually took it from the Desperately Seeking Susan article presuming it was sourced somewhere, if anyone feels like tidying that up.) I found a couple of oblique references to tension between Arquette and Madonna; if anyone can source more (especially if it was more than just a personality clash, but studio politics), it could go in.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

No need of adding tensions btw Madonna and Arquette. This will be completely undue emphasis. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 11:10, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why a brief mention is completely undue (do you mean "probably"?). I actually don't have access to information about it; the snippets I could get out of google books suggested that it might be due to the issue of Madonna's fame overwhelming the coverage of what was originally Arquette's film - which is arguably on topic. As I said, I couldn't get into the books in depth on line, so I asked if others knew more.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

No I believe it will be undue only. Its probably for the film article but not for the bio. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 03:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you know the details about it? As I said, I can't get access to references to it. It would be easier to discuss if the information were out in the open. (I don't dispute that you may be entirely right about UNDUE...)VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 03:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent)Actually I read about it in the biography of Madonna by Taraborrelli. But now that page has become locked for me in Google. The problem was that Madonna, then a new actress, was being given the same billing in the movie as Arquette, who was senior to her (in acting terms). Also, the wardrobe and wacky sense that the character of Susan portrayed was Madonna's own sense of style. The director decided to incorporate her ideas rather than Arquette's. Hence this led to the tension. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

How about this then, if we can confirm the source: "She also appeared in the comedy Desperately Seeking Susan, a film which introduced the song "Into the Groove," her first number-one single in the United Kingdom.[32] Although not the lead actress for the film, her profile was such that the movie widely became seen (and marketed) as a Madonna vehicle[33], reportedly creating tensions with her co-star Rosanna Arquette [citation]. The film received a nomination...."VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Looks good, but I can't access the page number in google. I'll try to ask a friend of mine who has the actual book. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:27, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - much appreciated. Also thanks for the clear up after my cut and paste job. btw, for future refereence, as I said in the edit summary, The Times is not NYT, but what is sometimes called in your neck of the woods in America "The London Times".VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Remedios Varo

This article features a painting by Remedios Varo, and the tag below this images uses the male pronoun "his." Varo was a female painter. Will someone with editing privileges please fix this error? Thank you in advance. 68.174.95.3 (talk) 02:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for pointing this out. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Criticism material removed

The criticism material here cannot be removed. The context in which Joni Mitchell speaking is very clear. If you want to move this into the legacy section, then that is fine. However, it is a form of vandalism to simply erase anything that is not positive, especially when the article is already very biased in the positive direction. The Joni Mitchell statement MUST stay if this article is to be considered neutral. Boab (talk) 19:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

No. Removing sourced material when supported by reasons is NOT "a form of vandalism", so please don't continue with that attitude. You've now added it three times, despite the continuing discussion in the section above. Some of what you have added is useful, a lot of it is garbage, and the discussion above goes into further detail. It is not up to other editors to wade through what you have added and pick out the useful bits and merge them into the article, if you're not prepared to spend any time more than what it takes to copy and paste an edit. It is being discussed, and nobody has presented the view that anything that is not positive is to be removed. There is support for the Joni Mitchell statement. Let the discussion lead to a conclusion, and be patient. The material has been gone from the article for 2 years you say. It's not urgent that it be put back right at this moment. Rossrs (talk) 22:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

In many cases they [criticism sections] are necessary, and in many cases they are not necessary. And I agree with the view expressed by others that often, they are a symptom of bad writing. That is, it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms.

— Jimbo Wales

When an article concerns the biography of a living person, its bad taste to simply group random criticisms together because the article becomes a WP:ATTACKPAGE. If you would like to be proactive with the information you are attempting to input, place the information in its proper context, along side the relevant information and time period or section of the article. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 00:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Right, the Joni Mitchell quote is now in, in clearly the most obvious place, contextualised to show it's not just Madonna she's having a go at. As a note, WP:ATTACKPAGE doesn't apply here, as one criticism section does not make an attack page. The reasons for not having stand alone criticism sections are not to protect BLP in and of themselves, it is that they can, it is said, lead to bad writing and act as magnets for all kinds of POV activity (there is an oppositing view that criticism sections make POV pushing easier to manage). It is not the case that criticism sections are against the rules; the strong trend is not to have them. Personally I quite like them if they're well structured, because I think it's easier then for several people to edit the same article. However, clearly the consensus here and on popstar pages in general is not to have separate sections but to integrate them. On the other hand, Boab really should not accuse people of vandalism when his edits were removed because they were against consensus on how to put criticism in. Editing persistently against consensus is disruptive. Boab, if you agree that the criticisms do not have to be in one block, but entered throughout the article where appropriate, then edit the article like that. And please read other people's comments here more carefully.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 03:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Boab, you cannot accuse people randomly of vandalism like this when there is a clear consensus of putting the material in the article in your prescribed form. Either read WP:CONSENSUS and WP:AGF or leave it! However, Vsevolod has put the material in a very decent form, by inserting it as part of the prose, rather than a separate section which would have indeed become an attack page for anyone not editing under NPOV. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Lead section organisation

Just a thought - wouldn't it be nice for the leading section to be organised according to the various notable things about her - music, films and business each put together? At the moment the lead is a bit chronological; the mention of her filmwork gives undue weight to Evita and her film success; in reality her film career has been a little more patchy than that (of the three areas she's notable for, it's clearly the least successful). The main text tells the story chronologically VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually thats how the main biography is organised. Hence the LEAD repeats that. Also amongst all her films, Evita was the most successful. Well, successful by a huge margin compared to all her other films. Hence it is the only most notable film achievement and is put in the lead. I believe its fine as it is and Undue weightage has not been given. Let's see what other editors have to say. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I prefer chronological order over anything else. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 06:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Legolas, I see what you're saying, but her status as an actress is not defined by her role in Evita, which was a musical, after all. Using "most successful" has its merits, but I think if we over-use that criteria in biographies, we're basically writing hagiography. Desperately Seeking Susan and Body of Evidence are also notable (first was part of her original rise to fame, the second typical of her over-the-top sex themes of the early 1990s as well as a notable stinker of a film, nominated for six razzies and on Roger Ebert's list of most hated films. The lead can say something like "Her film career has been more uneven. Starting with the comedy Desperately Seeking Susan (1985), it has consisted of highs (a Golden Globe for her role as Evita Peron in Evita) and lows (the universally panned erotic thriller Body of Evidence) as well as the commercially successful tour documentary In Bed with Madonna..." This seems balanced to me.

Bookkeeper, if you like chronological, how about each section of the lead being chronological? Having it all chronological actually makes it difficult to get a quick understanding of who Madonna is.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced about the change. What you have suggested is already there in the lead in chronological order. And whether musical or not, Evita has been the sole film for which her reception in the acting world has been appreciated. Although I must note that most reviewers stated that Madonna actually did what she does best "sing and dance". I prefer the chronology in this case. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Again, appreciated and notable, while they are often related, are not the same things. What I and some other editors have said about the tone not feeling neutral perhaps comes down to this distinction.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm only adding it here because of the previous POV talk about her film roles. At the moment it says that "Her provocative imagery continued with the erotic thrillers Body of Evidence...[which] contained scenes of S&M and bondage hence was poorly received by critics." It seems to have been panned because it was a bad film, not because of the subject matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.98.17 (talk) 09:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

As per bookkeeper's suggestion on my talkpage, I'm sandboxing an alternative lead to show you my ideas. I'll show you all when it's ready.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Article size/section size

I'm becoming concerned about the size of the article. Granted, there is a lot to say about Madonna and a large article is not by any means a bad thing, but the recent additions to the Musical Style and Legacy section are beginning to feel bloated, rather than comprehensive. The information and subject matter is excellent, but it seems to run on endlessly.

For instance, in the Musical Style and influence section, I just added one paragraph on the analysis of her talent but then we have 5 paragraphs covering her influence. To be balanced, we should have either 2 or 3 paragraphs on each subject for grand total of either 5 or 6 with an even distribution of both style and influence. Same problem in the expanded legacy, a lot of useful information, but the section itself seems overloaded. There is a need for better brevity of the information given. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 05:58, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't see much problem with the information except that, maybe a little re-structuring can be done. Which I believe can lead to briefing up the information. Lets do this at Talk:Madonna (entertainer)/Influence untill a consensus is reached. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

New Material added to balance out Legacy section

HI, I added some new material (all of which is carefully cited) to help balance out the Legacy section. It is important to mention that many people have questioned whether Madonna is really that talented. By the way, I am actually a fan. I just want to make the article more neutral in tone. Boab (talk) 18:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm moved the information to the Musical Style section. Critical Analysis is somewhat different than a legacy. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 01:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I had to remove all of your additions. You gave poor quality sources and beyond that the links to these did not actually work. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 02:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The links work for me. Given that there's been dispute about this, I think it was a little too bold to go removing all of the material without discussing it first, especially as Boab has done exactly what we requested he do. I'd have tried to find links that work, which is the best good faith thing to do. The Courtney Love material backs up Joni Mitchell, which is important. Lily Allen's quote is perhaps less notable, and possibly not relevant (Lily Allen's statement is arguably more about Lily Allen than Madonna). I'm looking into the other ones now.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Here's what I'll do. The Courtney Love material should go in, as it triangulates with Joni Mitchell. Both elements should really go in the legacy section as "not being that good, but selling well" is not an element of musical style. Where it is now it just doesn't fit. The Meryl Streep link (all that was wrong was formatting) actually says that Streep denies criticising Madonna, so it shouldn't be there. Lily Allen's quote I think is simply not relevant (sorry Boab). All it's really saying, I feel, is "I'm young, and I think young people would rather buy my records than hers."VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

As for sourcing, Bookkeeper was right that the sources were not the best - so I've resourced the Courtney Love quote to NME. As I said in the edit summary, it would be nice to have some good quote from the Madonna side about these criticisms. The reply to Joni Mitchell by a spokesman isn't really illuminating - just saying that well, Madge loves Joni anyway.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Contact Music, as well as the other sources provided would not be considered WP:RS. If we are going to be using direct quotes from people, we should have exemplary sources. Moreover, I can respect Joni Mitchell's position, but that is because she has been considered "the worlds greatest female songwriter" and one of the worlds greatest songwriters regardless of gender. Courtney Love on the other hand mouths off at every pop star at every opportunity almost as much as Morrissey does. With the wealth of information available on Madonna, I'd rather we use academic and professional musical critics who can give us a much more objective point of view, rather than listing a buch of contemporary rivals who don't like her. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 02:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Courtney Love is notable, though, and I've mentioned that it's part of a feud. It also says pretty much the same as Joni Mitchell, which is why it's relevant - it shows that it's not just Joni Mitchell that thinks these things. I've also changed the Courtney Love sourcing to NME, which is RS musical press. I really would like to say again - if the sourcing's bad for a quote, then find another source rather than delete. Googling a quotation is very easy; to get RS use Google News Archives or Google Books.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I use google books, scholar and news, as well as Proquest database on a daily basis. However, just because a quote exists, does not mean I'm going to agree it belongs in the article. I really would like to say again, I'd rather we use academic and professional musical critics who can give us a much more objective point of view, rather than listing a bunch of contemporary rivals who don't like her.The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 02:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I completely disagree with Vsevolod. In no way is Courtney Love notable regarding commentary or criticism of a person's work or life. I agree that Joni Mitchell is notable, but Courtney Love has been saying same things about each and every pop star that there is. I find these additions more tabloidy than ever before. And yes, untill and unless a RS comes for the quotes, that one should be deleted, rather than keep. (sorry vsevolod) I agree with Book that any critical response should come from scholars and notable authors, rather than people form the same field. Of course they will bad-mouth and criticise each other! How, in the Good Lord's name, can that ever be notable? --Legolas ^(talk2me) 03:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Is the NME not a notable source?VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 03:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Random section break 1

(Outdent)NME barely passes as RS. However, even if a hard-fast RS is found, like Billboard for eq, we have to ask the question "Is it notable"? I find it as a BIG non-notable incident. People from the same field do bitch about each other continuously. I find any addition like this to be tabloidy and completely unencyclopedic. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

You are joking. The NME is one of the principle music newspapers in the UK. Anyway, I've put in a similar quote from Michael Jackson sourced in a book published by Chicago University Press. Please don't cry UNDUE on me; having only Joni Mitchell listed as saying the things that she said is actually non-neutral, by representing her opinion as unique. As another RS says "I am of the opinion, shared by many, that Madonna can neither dance nor sing." http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/germaine-greer-the-genius-of-madonna-409826.html.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I had to revert your change. As I have said before, anyone within the same field of work, criticising one another, fails notability. Joni Mitchell's credibility comes as a songwriter first, and then as a musician. Hence not the same field. And please stop being hasty when there is a consensus against addition like this. I can ask you to stop crying UNBALANCED to me then. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Germaine Greer's quotes can definitely go in the article as she is highly reputed and notable. I read the article and although it appears to be more in favour, but Greer's quotes are valuable.--Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) NME is a highly reliable source (one of the worlds best actually regarding the music industry) - that point, however, is not what I am contesting. My point is that as an encyclopedia, and with an access to widely revered academic studies on Madonna, quotes from other entertainers are highly unnecessary. I'm 100% certain professional music critics (such as any who may have reviewed her albums at NME) and academic scholars have expressed the same sentiments as Michell, and no doubt with a much more in depth analysis. Critical representation should be our Primary use, and if absolutely necessary, followed by a single statment such as, "these opinions have been shared by other artists such as Mitchell, Jackson, Love, Morrissey (continued laundry list of whoever has talked shit about Madonna)" etc. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 04:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you Book, however, except for that part about adding if "absolutely necessary, followed by a single statment such as, "these opinions have been shared by other artists such as Mitchell, Jackson, Love, Morrissey (continued laundry list of whoever has talked shit about Madonna)" etc. As I have said before, people working within the same field, competing with each other, will always talk shit about each other. How can that be encyclopedic and NPOV? There is enough material I expect that scholars and books will have which can definitely balance out the legacy section, without these additions as Vsevolod insists. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

To Legolas: First of all, there is no consensus against Michael Jackson's opinions - or even against Courtney Love's. Boab and I have argued for their inclusion, bookkeeper and your good self have not. I have accepted, in the spirit of co-operation, that Courtney Love's quote doesn't go in. Note that the argument put forward was that she attacks everybody and is not a good quote source because of it. This is not true of Michael Jackson. Secondly, I can find nothing in WP:N that goes against the inclusion of Michael Jackson's views. Thirdly, read what I put at the top. "However her ability to overcome her own musical limits has been criticised by other musicians." In effect you are arguing that no criticism of a person by their peers can ever be considered notable - unless it's Joni Mitchell. Surely you can see that position is untenable.

Bookkeeper - the quotes put in are addressing a specific point - that her business sense is the key to her success, more than her talent. I find your argument that we should have a list of all and sundry a bit odd, because surely that defeats the point of avoiding the usual whining of people like Love and Morissey.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I have explained before also that Mitchell's creduibility comes as the greatest female songwriter, not as a singer or infact, as musician. That cannot be considered as a peer for Madonna. I am not against adding any negative comments or anything, I'm just against adding quotes from simlar artists like Madonna, because for me, the credibility of their comments are dubious and can be a retort also to the fact that Madonna's business sense had overpowered them. Hence an outsider of that group and his/her quote and comment is highly welcomed, as you have pointed out, the article by Greer is really useful. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Random section break 2

(outdent) should we ask someone not involved to resolve this? (ie. WP:RfC) We're not even agreeing on what policy is.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 04:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

(yet another edit conflict) For the record, I'm against using any quotes from peers, Mitchell or otherwise. My stance is to only use scholarly analysis. However, given that there is an obvious desire to mention quotes from other entertainers, I believe they should be given less weight by simply acknowledging their sentiments have already been expressed by professional critics in a single statement, rather than saying "well mitchell said this, love said that and jackson said this." esp considering all there statements are essentially repetitions of one another. As I mentioned in an earlier section, my other primary concern for this article is brevity, pro or con. Everything that has been said about Madonna does not need to be said in one article. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 04:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No response yet on the idea of an RfC, but in any case, how's this for a neutral RfC description of our dispute?: Editors in dispute over the appropriate use and weighting of quotations and opinions from other artistes in a paragraph of the legacy section.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Since its only three of us discussing, lets give a chance to other contributors of BLPs, especially this one to voice their opinion. If we don't reach a conclusion then also, we can try RfC. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

OK. I really think we need others here - we're in danger of edit warring or one side "winning" through attrition, which is not healthy. I can't see much common ground without someone producing a source that meets my desire to give the point what I believe is due articulation and back-up, and your wishes on the nature of sourcing. I don't find the Germaine Greer reference as helpful as the Jackson one. Apart from saying that certain opinions are widely held (which is what I think removes UNDUE worries), which can be RS as a matter of GG's integrity as a notable academic and commentator, I would not rate her article in detail as so notable as it's a little outside her specialism. Anyway, is there a place to invite people over to comment? VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Greer's credibility has always been established as a feminist writer and socio-critic. Hence the article from Independent is notable enough in its content, according to my POV. I have already asked others to comment on this. LEt's see what they have to say. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• I left a note at the Wiki Music Project here. That should give us enough responses without having to open a full RfC. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 07:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I said earlier that I thought there was value in Joni Mitchell's comment, but reading this discussion, I'm now doubtful. Bookkeeper makes an excellent point, I believe, in suggesting "scholarly analysis" and I would extend that to perhaps include people who have some direct connection or relevance to Madonna. If Michael Jackson is commenting on his association with Madonna, that would be more relevant in my opinion than him making a broad comment that does not relate to their association. Somebody who is as high-profile as Madonna is going to be the subject of the full range of comments from the gushing fans to the harshest of critics. I don't think that attempting to represent that range of commentary with an equal number of quotations for either side is necessarily going to create a balance. On the contrary, I think it encourages selectively seeking out negative comments regardless of their relevance. The comments of Mitchell and Love could both be no more than sour grapes - we don't really know. I also wonder if Mitchell's comment is given greater weight because of her stature as a musician. What if the exact same sentence had been said by someone else? The words and the attitude would be the same, but would they be less meaningful if they'd been said by Britney instead of Joni? I think Mitchell has been chosen, not because she is the right person to be speaking, but because we want a negative comment and she has obliged us by providing a particularly strong one. It looks a little like we're saying that we have X number of positive comments so to balance them we need X number of negative comments, and I don't think that is the solution. I'm all for balance but I don't think this is it.

On the other hand, I would consider Germaine Greer to be a suitable person to speak from a certain perspective. I strongly disagree that Greer is speaking from outside her specialism. Her field of expertise is certainly not specifically music or musicians, but she is eminently notable for her discussion on feminism, humanism, society, gender roles and culture/popular culture. Madonna notably fits into discussion of any of these topics. If Greer was giving an album review, I would say don't listen to her, but she's probably better qualified than many to talk about a notable person from a broader point of view, and that is what she is doing. I think that to say her comments about Madonna are negative would be to miss her main point : she says "She can't sing and she can't dance" BUT she follows that with a "But..." and looking at the entire article, Greer expresses more approval than disapproval and more admiration than contempt. It's a negative phrase that is actually used to strengthen a positive comment and to take it out of context, Greer's meaning is changed. I think this shows how easy it is to manipulate quotes, whether intentionally or unintentionally, to convey a particular impression. Whether there is anything of huge value in Greer's article is another story. I don't see a single quote that encapsulates her viewpoint. Rossrs (talk) 14:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Also... do we need to mention David Bowie? His name is just thrown in there. Rossrs (talk) 14:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your commments. I think it is not because of looking for negative opinions (although that's how I and others came across it) that the point about Madonna not being successful because of her individual talent (but instead an eye for a good team or business sense) should be included. It appears to be a commonly held perception. It is this point that I feel Greer is not best suited as a source. She can be RS for how widespread an opinion is, but I'd be unhappy for her to be a source detailing the precise nature of the opinion of some in the music industry. Her specialism is feminist theory and literature; she gets TV work commenting on anything, which muddies the waters on what her real expertise is.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 00:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Well done Rossrs, what I have been trying to say. Although I do support Mitchell's quote because of what it exactly says and what Vsevold wants in the article, that Madonna's expertise and popularity came more of hiring and dealing with the right people. At this point of time I'm completely against adding anything other than scholarly attributions regarding this issue. No comments by fellow artists and, as pointed out by Rossrs, sour grapes. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:08, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we're wandering into confusion here. In many other areas, peer comments by established, succesful peers would count as useful. There is no evidence that Joni Mitchell systematically criticsed her peers through professional envy, nor Michael Jackson. That is, it is a presumption that I cannot find in policy, that popstars are more inevitably bitchy than other artists. Some might be (for example, Courtney Love), but that's true of music critics too.

For me there are two ways of looking at this article. One is exploit sources to represent what we believe is a fair representation of Madonna (which is what we've all been doing), or the second is be strict with sources (and a fair number of books cited here are, as is the nature of publishing industry, little short of hagiography), and as a result, have an article about a third of the size we have now. How many of the Madonna books have been peer-reviewed for neutrality? How many of the writers have an established track record of fact verification?VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 18:39, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

As an illustration of the problem: editors here have rejected the quotation I inserted from Michael Jackson, even though it was sourced to a book that passes RS as much as any other book here. That is, an RS source thought Jackson's quote worth mentioning because it's more than simple bitching rivalry, but a contrast between Jackson's respect for Prince and his attitude towards Madonna. What editors here are doing is passing judgement on the decisions by RS authors to make certain material notable. That is OR, and not allowed. Either the source is RS and we have to take their judgements seriously, or it's not RS.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 19:11, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't define original research at all. WP:OR: Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions. In evaluating the sources we have available, we are still using published sources, not making up our own evaluation of Madonna. We can't use every reliable source for a single biography, that's just commons sense. Editors have to make choices on the sources they use for every article on wikipedia. There is nothing bias about reserving the article for critical commentary rather than using the opinions of rivals, as long as the information/evaluation results in a NPOV evaluation. You're implying we're trying to avoid Madonna being criticized - we're not, the list of books and quotes I left below which offers plenty of criticism proves that. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 01:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

(afterthought) I'd be perfectly fine not using published biographies/autobiographies of Madonna. As I've stated numerous times, the wealth of information on her means we can exclude anything that isn't a third party source. All it takes is a little grunt work. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 03:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

As a note, it's OR because it involves picking and choosing material in a way that constitutes a new analysis of existing sources - in effect respecting everything in the book as usable except the author's reasons for referring to MJ's comments about Madonna. It's a kind of POV apparently backed up with RS, in effect, OR. Remember that the paragraph began (something like) "Madonna's success in overcoming her musical limitations has been criticised by some notable people working within the music industry." The quotations were not about whether or not she's good, but that many notable people have made the same specific comment.

I've no interest in going to the wall over this. However, it does seem that every time negative comments from figures that are not boo-hiss people (i.e. not the Catholic Church) appear, they get challenged or removed. I suspect this has been going on for some time. A good example of the biased coverage is the one sentence description of Body of Evidence, a film that is famously bad and did a fair bit of damage to her image, followed by a sentence of a straight to video film, for which she personally received a mildly positive review (mentioned) in an otherwise negative review (not mentioned). She herself said it was "shit and I hate it" (not mentioned) and which she killed as a cinema release (not mentioned). That whole section only seems to hint occasionally at the major career problems she was going through, but that is how the period is defined in terms of her life. These sections are not randomly drawn. The Kabbalah material, of course, mysteriously disappeared into the html netherworld and had to be recovered. Her stoking controversy and thereby generate publicity by annoying the Catholic Church was described as "responding well to criticism". The coverage of Madonna's adoptions has a biased approach to coverage of the human rights protests against the move (only mentioning them as an irritant for the father). And now trying to get in material from people saying "she can't sing or dance much" is proving awfully difficult. I think everyone here is trying to act in good faith, but as an outsider to Madonna (pop music in general, in fact), this article does not seem balanced, and it seems to gloss over or minimise anything critical of her. I think there has been a systematic unconscious POV mindframe applied for a while in this article. I am far from the only editor who has mentioned this.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

In no way it constitutes WP:OR. What you are actually saying is add every damn thing that anybody has ever said about the person, then that way the article is balanced. You are simply crying your eyes out just because MJ's comment have been removed? Then again you are saying that involved editors are acting in good faith but they are applying their POV. All me and Bookkeeper has said that not to include quotes from people of same field, but a scholarly approach. And Book is already looking for material that can help us. Could you please stop the accusations for a little while and see whether involved editors actually work out something? I am losing my GF in you now. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 05:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

For you to note, Body of Evidence is already there in the article. Her provocative imagery continued with the erotic thrillers Body of Evidence and Dangerous Game. The first film contained scenes of S&M and bondage hence was poorly received by critics. Dangerous Game was released straight-to-video in North America but received some good reviews for Madonna's performance. The New York Times described that "She submits impressively to the emotions raging furiously around her." How much more do you want to give in the bio? Don't you think that will be way too much WP:UNDUE. The article makes it clear that it was a combination of Sex, Erotica and these two films that made the damage to her image, not singularly. Hence any overemphasis cannot be given to any of the topics. Again, this is already pointed out in the LEAD that they were poorly received from contemporaries and liberals. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 05:55, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Your reaction is symptomatic of the problem. You don't see the bias. What would I do? First of all I'd drop a long mention of Dangerous Game as wholly undue and instead lengthen the entry on Body of Evidence. Perhaps you can explain why should a straight to video film take up more space (including only positive aspects of a trashed film) than a genuine low moment which received far more coverage. I'd also shorten and make neutral the material on the Malawi adoptions. As for your statement "What you are actually saying is add every damn thing that anybody has ever said about the person, then that way the article is balanced". I used the word "notable", (and have shown that I do not consider to be anybody to be notable) and I was suggesting it be limited to one, repeated refrain about Madonna's career, a refrain whose frequency has been attested to (but not very snappily expressed) by Germaine Greer. The point I am making is that people are applying far higher standards of RS, UNDUE and NOTE to negative statements than they are to positive, and that this results in POV. I would make some of these changes myself, but at the moment I'm losing faith in the process. Your caricaturing of my position doesn't help things.

I'm also an outsider to Madonna, and its difficult because this isn't an article about subject matter, its a biography of a living person. Before, the article was pretty much arranged as "good stuff about madonna" and "bad stuff about madonna" which isn't helpful to the reader without proper context. As we saw with this recent addition/removal to the legacy section, there was poor sourcing and unqualified representation. Of all articles on wikipedia, biographies of living people should be the most difficult, because

• Criticism and praise: Criticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to particular viewpoints, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one. The views of a tiny minority have no place in the article. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation is broadly neutral; in particular, subsection headings should reflect important areas to the subject's notability.

As I've been saying all along, if we want criticism, they should be qualified. Its not enough just to say we should have some and then throw in any we find. There should always be careful consideration. And considering all the information I've already provided, isn't it somewhat silly to continue this circular argument, when you, I or any other editor on this talk page could have reasonably already written a comprehensive and neutral Legacy section using the 5 books and 2 PDF articles written by third party sources not attached to Madonna's camp? There is enough information there to make this entire argument a moot point. I've mentioned several times brevity should be a focal point of this article as well, pro or con. That mean trimming down a lot of the positive overkill in the article as well. I think we already have enough information to do that. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 06:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

So long as praise is also subject to the same criteria and qualifications. For example, Bono's quote supporting Madonna's adoption fails the same tests (undue, bias, notability, non-RS) that have been applied to Jacko and Joni. I don't mean that in a pointy way. If you look back at the discussion on this talk page, the reasons for not including those critical comments have shifted every time previous objections were met. It's difficult to edit according to consensus if the groundrules keep shifting. I'm happy to go along with your ideas on sources to use so long as the principles are applied consistently.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:59, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. My consistent standard has been only to use academic or scholarly sources, if that means weeding out sources on praise that appear to be below the threshold, so be it. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 07:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Random break in legacy section

Bookkeeper has just posted some very interesting sources on my talk page. Here's his post in full:

I've been browsing google books and I came across Understanding Popular Music By Roy Shuker. The first paragraph on page 128 touches on the difference between talent and calculated manufacturing and mentions this is a commonly held criticism. Similarly Battleground: women, gender and sexuality‎ - Page 321 talks about Madonna using sex to exploit producers in order to become successful and points to a rolling stone article calling her an "unqualified" success. The last paragraph on page 18 and on to page 19 of Music, space and place: popular music and cultural identity talks about Madonna and her success based on her production teams. There is also a quote in Popular Music: The rock era By Simon Frith on page 403 that shoots squarely at Madonna. These are the types of critiques I'm looking for. User:Bookkeeperoftheoccult07:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

There is some excellent stuff in there. In particular we can add more to the Madonna reinventing herself section; I was personally unhappy at only having one source of that. Let's all have a nose around and see what we can find. I still think that the specific nature of the resentment expressed by other artists should be reflected in the text; if Joni and Jacko say much the same thing, it seems notable.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 08:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

There's some really good stuff in those books which we can surely use in the Legacy section to balance it out. Let's create a draft of it in Talk:Madonna (entertainer)/Legacy before moving it to the main article. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 08:48, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Some google scholar searches:

• Madonna–Strategy on the Dance Floor by European School of Management and Technology.

• Madonna: Icon of Postmodernity by Jock McGregor. Christian perspective.

• Popular music and society By Brian Longhurst

I'll add more as I find them. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 05:00, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Catholic Highschool Found

I was messing around with sitesearch on one of those classmates directories, and found here catholic school:

Hallows, she graduated in 1976, it says.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.123.17.33 (talk) 05:50, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

records sold worldwide.

OK, that 200 million albums worldwide is well dated! she sold way more than that! I summed up that the total studio albums sold + compilations is 200 million. But what about the singles? It's gotta at least 100 million, which brings up a total of 300 mil. Don't ask me for sources, I don't know where to find them, all I'm saying is that the sources used for the 200 mil are dated! We need newer ones.--12345abcxyz20082009 (talk) 20:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

HER single, "You must love me" ?

The Academy Award went to Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice (I believe) for adding the song to the movie. It was NOT a Madonna single. She merely performed it at the Academy Awards. She was not nominated for anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.38.111.142 (talk) 08:36, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Nobody said that Madonna was nominated for an award but it only mentions that the song won the academy award. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 08:47, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually the IP is right. Academy Awards and Golden Globes for Best Original Song are only given to the songwriters, not the performers. Mentioning this gives Madonna undue credit. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 17:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree. However, I believe the line is not saying that Madonna won an awrad or was nominated. It simply states that the song went on to win the award. "You must Love Me" was most definitely a Madonna single. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Which I also agree too, however, the very nature of the award is especially created - solely - for the writers, not the performer. It is undue weight to mention the awards, as Madonna - solely as performer - has nothing to do with them. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 04:09, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Ohh k. I get what you meant. I'll remove the line. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

You Must Love Me IS a Madonna single; her likeness and name DO appear on the CD single. Sooner Or Later is not a Madonna single but a Madonna song that featured on her I'm Breathless soundtrack album.

Both songs earned their writers Academy Awards. The article does mention the Sooner Or Later win. It doesn't make sense not to inform readers of the You Must Love Me win. Readers won't necessarily take the time to read the individual Sooner Or Later and You Must Love Me articles and they deserve to have that important information.

The article currently says: "It also featured her eighth US number-one single, "Vogue", and her first Academy Award-winning song "Sooner or Later".

The Madonna article should just say: "It also featured her eighth US number-one single, "Vogue", and "Sooner or Later", a song that earned Stephen Sondheim an Academy Award for Best Original Song in 1991."

The article currently says: "The soundtrack album contained three of her singles including "You Must Love Me" and Don't Cry For Me Argentina".

It should say: "The soundtrack album contained three of her singles including "You Must Love Me", song that earned Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice an Academy Award in 1997 and Don't Cry For Me Argentina".

I'm tempted to make the changes but I fear an edit war... I thought no one owns an article here. But it seems only a few are allowed to make changes. Do I have the authority to make changes or must the changes be made by someone else?

Israell (talk) 21:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

That sounds fine. So long as it is made clear Madonna herself did not earn the awards. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 23:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Madonna and gypsys

In Romania, Madonna was booed over a speech about gypsys: http://omg.yahoo.com/news/madonna-booed-in-bucharest-for-defending-gypsies/26947?nc

Should this be added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.114.235 (talk) 01:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

This seems more appropriate for the Tour article. Madonna has been facing and making controversial comments forever, this is not an exception. --Legolas ^(talk2me) 04:13, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

QUEEN OF POP

There should be something in the introduction saying that Madonna is the "Queen of Pop" with sources and stuff, cause she is! If Michael, Elvis, or Tina get their honorific titles in their introductions, Madonna should have hers too! There may be others claiming other artists are the Queen of Pop, but Madonna is the true Queen of Pop by far more sources and career achievements. Even type "queen of pop" in google or other search engines and links for Madonna will out number other artists! Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trytry66 (talk • contribs) 07:58, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Source

The article said: Writer-author Santiago Fouz-Hernández, in his book Madonna's Drowned Worlds has commented that female pop performers such as Britney Spears, Destiny's Child, Jennifer Lopez, Kylie Minogue, Pink and most recently Lady Gaga How can he wrote about Lady Gaga in a 2004 book. 190.233.8.10 (talk) 03:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)