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While Dante's birthdate is conjectural, it should perhaps be mentioned that, as emphatically stated by himself ("O glorïose stelle, o lume pregno di gran virtù, dal quale io riconosco tutto, qual che si sia, il mio ingegno"), Dante was born under the sign of the Twins. Mind that the dates corresponding to astrological signs have changed in time, partly due to the adoption of the Gregorian calendar (e.g. Leonardo, born on April 15, was a Taurus). L'omo del batocio (talk) 10:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In English: Thou hadst not thrust thy finger in the fire/And drawn it out again, before I saw/'the sign that follows Taurus, and was in it./O glorious stars, O light impregnated/with mighty virtue, from which I acknowledge/All of my genius, whatsoe'er it be. Paradise, XXIII. 79.32.5.216 (talk) 20:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
is considered one of the last and greatest literary statements produced during the Middle Ages.
I would propose to write something different.
Linking Dante to middle age appears very limited, the influenceo of Dante in any time is enourmous and it goes beyond middle ages..
The wiki italian article is exagerated (saying that Divine commedy is the greatest litetrature work ever), but the French seems a good one..
From the French Wiki article:
Dante est le premier grand poète de langue italienne et son livre La Divine Comédie est considéré comme l'un des grands chefs-d’œuvre de la littérature universelle.
=Dante is the first great italian poet and its work La Divina Commedia is considered as one of the great masterpiece of the universal literature.
I propose to put this at the beginning..
The italian article doesn't say that is the greatest literature work ever (and even if, it should not be exagerated in my opinion; have you read the Commedia?); it just say that is the greatest work according to Borges, Milton, Leopardi opinion.
The 'See Also' section claims that three Radiohead albums allude to Dante. How and where? I've listened to all three albums and found nothing.
Before changing text, I'd enjoy some other opinions about.I think that he was a cery educated man he did all that he could in his life he contributed to writing and we are thankful for it
Really, AFAIK Dante is not usually considered in relationship with Renaissance, but better with "Dolce Stil Novo", a form of italian poetry with Petrarca, Guinizzelli and others.
Could someone verify this point, please, and see whether it would be advisable to correct statement?
Also, in Italy Dante is not generally considered a master of objectivity (his Hell is crowded with political enemies), so "His own views were independent and fiercely patriotic" could perhaps be better expressed as "His own views were not independent and fiercely partisan"
"... he established that the Italian language was suitable for the highest sort of expression ... "
This was stated centuries after, a posteriori, when Tuscan dialect already had become the main structure for italian, that simply did not exist at that time nor it was foreseen (there was no idea of Italy as a united country or single nation). Tuscan was elected as the main structure for italian also because of the dimensions of the whole of Dante's work (not only the Commedia), but a relevant role was played by the influence of Pisa's power and of many important tuscan people in Rome (like Michelangelo and several popes).
To say that "there was no idea of Italy" before of its unification seems really to be a very fashon idea; this is written in almost every page of en.wiki. But is simply false. And maybe also offensive. Somebody should read what an author wrote before writting articles about him. Dante the same, in La Divina Commedia, in the book Inferno, in the Canto I, line 100-111, wrote about his hope in an unification of Italy. The same Dante in De Vulgari Eloquentia wrote about the importance of create a standard language for Italy and so, afther a great work of research and classification he created the language in which he wrote La Divina Commedia, that was not Tuscan but Italian (so called since he so callad it). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.59.146.64 (talk) 01:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]
I think you might be on to something here. Dante had a far more Medieval mindset than a Renaissance one. His only real connection with the early Renaissance is that it was occurring around him -- he was off doing his own thing extending and modifying Medieval thought. I simply don't know enough about Dante or Italian history to respond to your other points -- although they seem to be good ones. Go ahead and make the modifications you think are necessary. If the primary author of this page disagrees then you can further discuss this later (although my feeling is that he/she will be greatful for your contributions). maveric149
I'm not happy with the idea that Dante invented love poetry (as the text suggests): Sappho and Catullus come immediately to mind, as well as the troubadours.
Also, this text seems out of balance, being more on fine points of Florentine history, which probably should be moved to the page on Florence, than on Dante's works.
Nonetheless, in the meantime I've done a bit of copyediting, and translated a few things into common English terms instead of Italian. --Vicki Rosenzweig
EB gives Dante's birthday in the range May 15 - June 15, instead of the range in the Wikipedia. Does anyone know if this results from differences in calculations of the astrological signs in different years? Can anyone confirm when Gemini was in 1265? --Dante Alighieri 20:21 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)
The current link to Vita Nuova is not to an article about Dante's poem. Andres 23:04, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I was also a bit discontent about the sweeping generalizations in the article ("all" Florentines being involved in politics, or sources saying that he had been to Paris). Although I corrected the ones I knew about, some may still remain. Also, the details concerning his life are--in my opinion--lacking. I added some (the diplomatic mission to Venice, for example), but others need to be added. (Boniface VIII being the pope that caused his exile, his ties to the old nobility, etc.). Moreover, the information about his works (even though they are in other articles) is lacking in my opinion. Although dwarfed by the Comedy, the vast importance of La Vita Nuova, De vulgari eloquentia, and Convivio are lost in this article. Information about his other poems and the Dante apocrypha (Il Fiore, for example) could also be useful.
Alighieri is not a list name. Shouldn't this article be at simply Dante? johnk 05:11, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
There have been other notable people known as Dante, an example being Dante Gabriel Rossetti. Surely, therefore, Dante should be a disambigation page, if anything? JKnight
Nonsense. If you say Dante you mean, well, Dante, however many other people there may be who have the name "Dante" in some part of their name. johnk 06:47, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That is, perhaps, too much of a generalization. The reason I mentioned Dante Gabriel Rossetti was because I often hear of him being referred to as simply Dante, too. So whilst Dante might always be taken as Dante Alighieri in relation to literature, it is not the same for art in my experience. Perhaps an alternate uses link, as seen on Homer might be a compromise? (As pointed out by HamYoyo). JKnight
I agree. Homer isn't a disambiguation page, but it leads to one, obviously for Homer Simpson. But it doesn't matter, as there's a redirection from Dante to Dante Alighieri.--[[User:HamYoyo|HamYoyo(Talk)]] 10:43, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)
(Late comment) Note that Homer is a poor example, because Homer doesn't have a last name to put him on; the only other option would be something awkward like "Homer (poet)", which is obviously unnecessary due to his fame. A better comparison is that Napoleon redirects to Napoleon I of France, which links to Napoleon (disambiguation) at its top. In the same way, this page should be kept at Dante Alighieri for clarity, Dante should redirect here because he's by far the most well-known Dante and is commonly known by that name alone, and Dante (disambiguation) should be linked to at the top because there are many other noteworthy Dantes too, even though none of them are noteworthy enough to force us to have Dante be the disambiguation page (and noteworthiness is the standard we must pay close attention to here, not "how often they are referred to as 'Dante' rather than their full name"). -Silence21:36, 5 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
(Mis)attributed quotation
Probably the most attributed quotation to Dante is the one from a JFK speech: "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality", or some variation on that. However, that quotation is not in any English translation of the Divine Comedy that I've read, or else I just missed it. I have not, however, read his other writings. Can anyone source the quotation?
The reason I'm so skeptical is that Dante's arrangement of Hell does not follow any simple-minded gradation of punishment: there is no "hottest" place in hell, and the worst punishment, the ninth circle, is in fact a cold place where the lost souls are buried in the ice.
If the quotation is bogus, its misattribution would itself be a worthwhile addition to the article. Ellsworth 21:55, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
OK, I found it. It appears that Kennedy simply misunderstood the text, or more likely, had never actually read the Inferno himself. Here's a good page on the misattribution http://www.bartleby.com/73/1211.html.
It's also inaccurate. Those who maintain their neutrality are in the vestibule of hell, not the hottest place.Carlo20:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There was something that said like "early sexcapades and family showdowns" as the title of the section. why would this be?
What is wrong with Friulian?
I notice that someone's repeated attempts to put external links to Dante translations in Friulian are always quickly deleted.
I have no bias for or against Friulian (I didn't even know what it is until I looked it up today), but I'm not sure why the deletions keep happening. It seems innocuous enough -- being a branch of an Italianate language, so it sounds arguably related to Dante, especially in as minor a place as an external link. Since the article already includes such trivia as video game characters with the name Dante, then why the objection to a serious translation into an Italian dialect?
I don't see any external links to a Friulian version of any of Dante's works, (which might be useful if they exist). All I've seen is this: Friulian translation of the Commmedia., and this Dante in the Friulian language add to the "External links" section, neither of which is an external link, they simply mention a supposed translation(s) and a link to our article on the language which makes no mention of Dante. Paul August☎21:35, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There was a mention of Dante in that article, which I removed: it was a bunch of external links to a commercial bookseller with some Italian description.
There's no mention of this work in the article but a Google search indicates that it was "a scholastic treatise on physics".
Could someone who knows more about this add it to the article as it seems like it would add an extra dimension to the man we think of now as purely a poet. --Spondoolicks15:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See if anyone removes it. But the quote that graces the front page, and is also in the list of quotations, is apocryphal. Those who maintain their neutrality are in the vestibule of hell, not the "hottest places." And the deepest places in hell are ice, not fire, anyway. Carlo12:56, 14 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This user has added similar requests to link to biographies hosted on the same site to about 50 different articles. Although I believe that these requests were made in good faith, adding the links to all of the articles would be spamming. In addition, the biographies tend to be not very insightful and/or minimally informative, and the webpages contain Google AdSense links.
A fuller explanation of my own opinion on these links can be found here, if anyone wishes to read it.
please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead. This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article. a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt. thanks. --He:ah?20:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but how did the tradition evolve differently for this particular person? How did the "tradition" arise to treat him differently than just about anyone else? Zaklog19:35, 2 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It might have something to do with the fact that in his time and place, surnames were uncommon - in fact Dante's had been recently added, having come from his father, Alighiero. So perhaps it was standard THEN to refer to people by the first name, which was usually the ONLY name.
Okay, this answer actually makes some kind of sense. Thank you, whoever you are. Now that you mention it, this reminds me of a silly mistake in The Da Vinci Code. The appelation "Da Vinci" is a modern designation. No one in Leonardo's own time would have called him that. Zaklog19:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The comments here about the prevalence of surnames is correct.
In the Middle Ages and early Renaissance Europe, ordinary people were usually known by their Baptismal name, and only used an additional name if it was necessary.
If their Christian name was relatively uncommon, like Michelangelo, then no-one ever used their surname and to an art Historian, using the name Michelangelo Buonarotti sounds like a bit of a wank by someone pretending to be knowledgeable. Caravaggio's name was also Michelangelo, so he is known almost exclusively by the name of his place of origin.
In the case of Leonardo, he lived on a hillside near a tiny hamlet, where he had no need of two names. When he moved to the small town of Vinci, at age 5, he would have been Leonardo di ser Piero (Leonardo the son of Messer Piero). It wasn't until he moved to a city that he needed to be distinguished as Leonardo from Vinci. "Da Vinci" was not his name, and it was ignorant of Dan Brown to use it as such. Michelangelo, on the other hand, was nobility, and had a string of half a dozen names to chose from, but didn't really need them, bbecause he so distinguished the one name. It is interesting that van Gogh chose to just sign himself "Vincent' in the manner of the Renaissance painters. Another case here is Piero. Piero is a dead ordiary name, and it would take an awful lot to make it stick out in the memory. So the owner of it had to chose where to call himself Piero d'Arezzo, Piero dei Monterchi or what? His name reflected his status. Piero della Francesca. Piero, the bastard child of Francesca... and that was the name he made famous.
In England, in the late Middle Ages, people often assumed names associated with their professions- Smith, Fletcher, Fuller, Tailor, Weaver, Dyer, Wood, Lock, Wright, Baker, Cowan. This also happened in Italy- a famous name being Tintoretto.
This being the English wikipedia, I should think there'd be room for an article on the history of translations of Dante's work, especially of course the Commedia,into English, with some references to the often intense scholarly arguments such translations have created. Is there such an article yet? --Christofurio14:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See Also
If this page were to follow the style of many other similar pages then the See Also section would be works directly related to him and his works. There should really be a section titled Uses In Popular Culture which would cover things like the band Sepultura, video games and Radiohead. KevinCarmody15:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not much is said about Dante's thought in this article as it currently stands. It is commonly thought that the Comedy renounces the 'Averroism' of Monarchy and thus returns to the orthodoxy of the Catholic Church. This has been disputed by several scholars: Gilson, Dante the Philosopher, and Fortin, Dissent and Philosophy in the Middle Ages: Dante and His Precursors, and also in a recent book by Gregory B. Stone, Dante's Pluralism and the Islamic Philosophy of Religion. Obviously, in any expansion the more accepted traditional reading should be given pride of place but I would hope that it would be agreed that minority viewpoints should be mentioned too. There is also an online article - http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/tud.htm - by Paul A. Cantor that can serve as a brief introduction to this line of thought. Pomonomo200317:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Boniface quickly sent away the other representatives and asked Dante alone to remain in Rome. At the same time (November 1, 1301) Charles de Valois was entering Florence with Black Guelfs, who in the next six days destroyed everything and killed most of their enemies. A new government was installed of Black Guelfs, and Messer Cante dei Gabrielli di Gubbio was appointed Podestà of Florence. Dante was condemned to exile for two years, and to pay a large sum of money. The poet was still in Rome, where the Pope had "suggested" he stay, and was therefore considered an absconder. He could not pay his fine and was finally condemned to perpetual exile. If he were ever caught by Florentine soldiers, he would have been summarily executed."
I found a mistake in this passage: it says here that Dante could not pay his fine, but I think that it might be wrong to say that he 'could not'. Dante Alighieri could have payed his fine if he wanted to; the reason he didn't is because he couldn't see how he had wronged anyone. Dante thought himself to be innocent in this matter. I think that 'he could not' should be changed to 'he refused to'.
Also, I think there should be some mention of how they took control of most of Dante's assets after condemning him to perpetual exile. Maybe it is obvious to some that when one is condemned to perpetual exile that one's assets would be taken control of, as there is no use for most personal possessions while in perpetual exile, but I still find it an important fact that needs to be placed in the passage above.
I hope that my suggestions were helpful in fixing this article, and I second the motion to create a related article for translations of La Divina Commedia. I have a translation of the Comedy by Leon Stephens, who I noticed isn't mentioned anywhere in wikipedia. Leon Stephens has also done many other important translations, and I feel that there should be mention of him somewhere in the article titled 'Translation', if not in this article.
The article has both. Either seems fine, but consistency is important. I propose "Guelph" since that's what's used in the linked article. Evan Donovan20:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I like "Guelph." Although that "ph" looks really Greek instead of Latinate. And, if that's the name of the main Guelphian ("Guelphian"?) article, that seems right. Carlo21:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Dante wrote the Comedy in his regional dialect. By creating a poem of epic structure and philosophic purpose, he established that the Italian language was suitable for the highest sort of expression, and simultaneously established the Tuscan dialect as the standard for Italian"
Has the author of the page even read just a line of what Dante had written?
1) La Divina Commedia han NOT been wtitten in Tuscan.
2) Tuscan is NOT the standard for Italian.
3) Like it's written in "De Vulgari Eloquentia", Dante didn't like so much his native dialect.
4) Dante is famous because he created a new language (like many other men of his time were tring to) which has to be a Koiné for the Italian people. This language is now classified as an Italoromance language; and it has been strongly influenced by Tuscan and Sicilian, but it also taken some stuctures and words from Latin and all the dialects of Italy. Dante called this language Italian, and so is today known. This is the language in wich Dante wrote La Divina Commedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.59.200.1 (talk) 03:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]
I live in Italy, and have studied Dante Alighieri extensively. Whoever wrote the above comment doesn't understand history, because Dante DID write the Divine Comedy in the vernacular Tuscan dialect, and the reason Italian is the language it is today comes from the Divine Comedy having been the first book published in Italy, even before the Bible. Dante loved his native dialect enough to choose it over Latin. If I am wrong, then it's a sad day for Italian public school systems...it would be like the Americans not knowing about George Washington.ovisbalat16:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad that you haved studied Dante Alighieri extensively. If this is real you can easily see that the language in which the Commedia has been written is not Tuscan but is a language based upon Tuscan but influenced by Sicilian and all other dielects of Italy. This is also what it is teached in all italian schools (and that everyone can see just reading the Commedia). Thank you for saying that I don't understand history, you're very kind (and even if, what does it concern?). The reason he choose to not write his main work in Latin is well explaned in De Vulgari Eloquentia. About how the Lingua Volgare had to be is also explained. He choose to create his litterary language upon Tuscan because that was the dialect that at that time had the main written litterature and in the previous century has been the erudite language of most of the italian courts. But becose he didn't like it (he found it imprecise and cacophonic, has he wrote in De Vulgari Eloquentia) he decided to mixed it to the other dialecs of Italy, expetially which of them had a great litterary experience as Sicilian.
Durante
It's only a not confirmed scholars' hypothesis, that his full name was "Durante". I think the first word in this article should be "Dante", not "Durante". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.60.179.29 (talk) 23:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]
I agree that the first word in this article should be Dante. Durante should be mentioned as his probable given name. Durante is actually the name of the author of "Il Fiore", a poem which is attributed to young Dante by some scholars (I would say most these days). Gianfranco Contini's masterly entry "Il Fiore" in "Enciclopedia Dantesca" is available online (alas, in Italian). By the way, "Il Fiore" draws heavily on the Roman de la Rose, that inspired Chaucer too. L'omo del batocio (talk) 10:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Repetitiveness
The problem with this article is much less its content as its lack of proper structure. We have bits of biography here and bits there, and the same information is presented in different paragraphs, in the manner of backtracking. --Aaron Walden23:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dante as a comic
On the "List of comedians" page, Dante (1970-) is listed. Okay I understand that it's not the same Dante, but as the comedian doesn't have his own page and the link on the list page comes here, shouldn't that be changed? If this is the wrong place to put it, sorry, but I'm not a wikipedian.
81.187.6.20111:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Waiblingen "family"?
The article states "These [the Guelphs and the Ghibellines] factions fashioned their names after those of opposing factions of German Imperial politics, centered around the noble families the Welfs (Guelfs or Guelphs) and Waiblingen (Ghibellines), but adapting their meaning to the Italian political arena." On other hand, according to the article Guelphs and Ghibellines: "Guelph (often spelled Guelf, plural Guelfi) is most probably an Italian form of Welf, the family of the dukes of Bavaria (including the namesake Welf, as well as Henry the Lion). The Welfs were said to have used the name as a rallying cry during the Battle of Weinsberg in 1140, in which the rival Hohenstaufens of Swabia (led by Conrad III) used Waiblingen, the name of a castle, as their cry. Waiblingen, at the time pronounced and spelled somewhat like "Wibellingen", became subsequently Ghibellino in Italian." Thus there is no Waiblingen family, "Wailblingen" is the name of castle.
Did Dante write his Inferno ( and Purgatorio and Paradiso for that matter) in Italian or some kind of old, closer to Latin Italian? I realize at this time ( the 1400s) English was a great deal different then then it was now. Was this true for Italian as well? If so, the intro and wherever else it says it was written in Italian should be changed to something indicating that the Italian it was composed in is different than modern Italian. - Christopher22:30, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No - it was Italian. While there is some difference, it is nothing LIKE the difference between (say) Chaucer and modern English. The Italian language has changed far less than the English language. Carlo23:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, surely it is Italian and has nothing to do with Latin, but actually it is quite different from modern Italian. In fact, no average Italian could ever understand the general meaning of a piece of the Commedia without sidenotes. --89.97.35.70 (talk) 22:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such thing as an average Italian. :D . Anyways, the above claim is not accurate. It largely depends on the piece. The Paradiso is widely considered the most "difficult" to understand, partly because Dante's language becomes more complex there, partly because of its massive theological content .L'omo del batocio (talk) 12:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the above message. Many Italians know pieces of Divina Commedia by heart, out of passion, not for professional purposes. This shows that even today large parts of the poem can be understood without footnotes.--Broletto (talk) 15:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My Italian instructor cited 'Inferno' as the standard for modern Italian. She was quite adamant about this and was also a native speaker from Rome. There are obviously commonly used words in Italian today that were not in Dante but if there is any confusion on the part of native speakers with regard to Dante it is due to idiosyncrasies of structural formation used today, not the actual vocabulary. DavidMSA (talk) 05:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let me give an example. In the sixth Canto of Paradise Dante writes "Poscia che Costantin l'aquila volse / contr'al corso del ciel, ch'ella seguio / dietro a l'antico che Lavina tolse,/ cento e cent'anni e più l'uccel di Dio / ne lo stremo d'Europa si ritenne". Now, any literate Italian with a decent knowlegde of English (or viceversa) will be able to translate the above roughly as follows "After Constantin turned the Eagle / against the course of the sky that it followed / behind the ancient who took Lavinia / hundred and hundred years and more the bird of God / remained on Europe's border". However, unless the reader is truly erudite, he will need to peruse to the footnotes to get the meaning of the above verses, Constantin being the Roman emperor who moved the capital of the Empire (here represented by the eagle, which for Dante symbolizes also divine justice) eastwards to Constantinople, which would later become the capital of the Byzantine empire (the Roman Empire of the East, as Italians still call it), on the extreme boundary of Europe, while the "ancient who took Lavinia" is Aeneas, the Trojan prince and mythical father of Rome, who married Lavinia, daughter of king Latinus, after travelling westwards to Latium. May my clumsy remarks provide a glimpse of the marvelous plurality of semantic layers in the Comedy. L'omo del batocio (talk) 20:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Citations necessary?
Is it really necessary to call into question such claims as whether Dante is considered the greatest writer in Italian? I mean, I know that people are skeptical of making such broad statements, but isn't that pretty much a given? Let's remove the "citations necessary" things; if absolutely necessary, we can add a qualifier such as "Dante is frequently considered..." etc.. (Eeesh00:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC))[reply]
Minor changes
While I understand the laudable impulse to standardize lexical choices, I'm sure we agree that the consequences ought to be as accurate or more so, not less accurate than the original. "Lombra sua torna ch'era dipartita" is not actually the "rest" of a line, it is the continuation of the previous line in the next line -- it is the "rest" of the sentence, but the continuation of the line. So I have reverted "rest" to "continuation."
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that "missing" implies the loss of something that was once present or the omission of something that should be present. Neither applies to the intentional abbreviation of the sentence on the tomb. I've reverted "missing" to "absent." Perhaps "omitted" would work, except that the implied agency complicates the purpose.
I have reverted "returns to" to "returns among" to retain the sense that Dante gives that Virgil very much belongs among this group who give him such a warm welcome. I suppose old expressions like "return among the quick" may seem remote or out-of-date, but surely they remain part of our linguistic capacity as native English speakers.Robcuny03:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Inferno in PDF
I tried to add link to post on my blog, where I posted Inferno in PDF format. The bot removed the link based on the fact it links to wordpress.com. Since I don't have my own site, I posted the file on my blog.
The link was as follows (in "Divine Comedy online" section):
Hello, I have the entire text online of The New Life by Dante Alighieri translated by Charles Eliot Norton, with several essays of his that follow the translation on elfinspell.com.
I am aware of the nofollow rule and offer this information to add a valuable resource for Dante materials.
Norton helped form the Dante Society in America.
It appears that I can't add the link myself. Susan Rhoads (talk) 14:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)Susan Rhoads[reply]
A link to a translation of an individual work should probably be placed in the article about the work itself, not in the author's biographical article. I suggest you add the link in La Vita Nuova, where a different translation is already linked. Deor (talk) 15:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Deor. I was told that I could not put in the link myself because of conflict of interest and to bring it up here instead and let neutral editors decide if it is appropriate.Susan Rhoads (talk) 16:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)Susan Rhoads[reply]
OK, I've added a link to La Vita Nuova. Wikipedia editors (including myself) get a bit twitchy when they see someone suddenly start to insert links to the same site into multiple articles in quick succession. It's best to ask on the talk pages, to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest. (One should also check that an article doesn't already contain a link to the same public-domain translation hosted at a different Web site. There's no need for multiple links to the same text.) Deor (talk) 17:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can understand that. Thanks, Deor. Once I finally got up the nerve to try to figure out how to contribute anything to Wiki, I did it all at once, having taken the plunge. It makes it more difficult that I have to do this on every talk page of every article that might benefit from some of the content that's on my site. Its easy to sympathize with the editors' postions. However, the great amount of time spent in asking on every page before linking is a problem at my end, too, even when I know the resource is often a very useful one. There is a lot of Dante related material on my site inc. Villani's Chronicle of Italy, in the only English translation, based on Dante's works, too, but adding one link was hard enough! Since I hand type all the texts, I feel guilty every time I am doing something else besides re-proofing the ones that are there (typos spontaneously generate, you know) or adding more books. Susan Rhoads (talk) 18:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)Susan Rhoads.[reply]
Making Sense of del Castagno Fresco
When I zoom in to look at the del Castagno fresco I notice that it is titled, "Dantes Di Alegier's Floretini" and not Dante Alighieri. I don't really know what to make of this, does anyone have any citable source to explain this? DavidMSA (talk) 06:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There’s a lot of conflicting info in the article about his date of birth. The infobox gives a bald "14 May 1265". This is gainsaid by the lead para – "between 14 May and 13 June". That in turn is gainsaid by the first para of Life, which puts it "between 21 May and 21 June". And finally, there’s a 4th version in note 1 – "probably in the end of May".
What’s a reader to make of all that? Gemini does occur between 21 May and 21 June (roughly; the dates can vary year by year), but that’s only true under the Gregorian calendar, which Dante didn’t use because it was created in 1582, over 300 years after he was born. The relevant period in 1265, under the Julian calendar, was about 11 May to 11 June. So that’s a 5th version. But to take this much further gets us into the area of original research. It's very important for our credibility to be consistent in everything we say; if various pieces of evidence contradict each together, they should all appear in the same place so that readers are in a position to form their own conclusions. Currently, looking at different parts of the article in isolation will send readers down the garden path with less than full information. Can we put all these bits of data together, and since we should not be guessing a date, can we say in the lead something like “mid-May to mid-June 1265”, with a link to the notes. We definitely have to get rid of the precise date "14 May 1265" from the infobox, because that is only one of at least 30 possible dates. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware of the verifiability issue. If I was not, I would have already redirected the page I am so certain. As I explain, there are few sources for primary uses of words. Google is not definitive, I agree, but helpful. Usually this has to be done via consensus, which was achieved once before in 2004 (see above).
That Dante is known as Dante has similar problems for "proof," but "The Dante Society" and "Dante's Inferno" refer to the poet, showing a general support for this.
A question for you, do you have evidence that the other items on the list are more likely to be the target people are looking for? (John User:Jwytalk) 01:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, here's a reasonably definitive argument: Last month, Dante redirected to Dante Alighieri. If they were not looking for the poet, they would click on the hatnote. Roughly 15% did. To me, 85% means its a primary topic (see http://stats.grok.se/en/200811/). (John User:Jwytalk) 02:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(undent)
Yes, Dante was viewed roughly 1000 times a day, Dante (disambiguation) 150. With some exceptions, most people will get to the dab page only if they are at the Dante Alighieri page and click the hat note. So 850 of the 1000 people that entered Dante were happy they were got to the poets page. 150 were looking for something else. (John User:Jwytalk) 02:44, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I believe that's because it remained as a redirect for years. DBZ is a similar case. For a long time, it targeted Dragon Ball Z but now it's a disambiguation page (there was no source for 'DBZ' to be the primary topic for 'Dragon Ball Z', therefore, no precedence in moving the dab to DBZ (disambiguation)). Anyway, in order to solve this, find a reliable reference to support your findings. A series of graphs, estimations, etc., is not what one would call reliable would they? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 03:08, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The criteria is "When there is a well-known primary topic for an ambiguous term, name or phrase, much more used than any other topic covered in Wikipedia to which the same word(s) may also refer (significantly more commonly searched for and read than other meanings), then that term or phrase should either be used for the title of the article on that topic or redirect to that article." (WP:PRIMARYTOPIC). The statistics are the actual usage of Wikipedia and strongly support the poet as a primary target. We don't often have such strong statistics for this. Its not "definitive," but should provide a good basis for consensus. Anyone else have an opinion? (John User:Jwytalk) 03:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cleaning up and "reducing prolixity"
It seems to me that the recent edits by Mhazard9 are introducing disimprovements of the wording of the article more than they are improving it. For example,
Changing "The exact date of Dante's birth is unknown, although it is generally believed to be around 1265" to "Dante Alighieri’s birth is, approximately, the year 1265"
Changing "Dante claimed that his family descended from the ancient Romans" to "Dante Alighieri’s family claimed descent from Ancient Rome"
Changing "While the vision of Hell, the Inferno, is vivid for modern readers, the theological niceties presented in the other books require a certain amount of patience and knowledge to appreciate" to "To the contemporary reader, his vision of the Inferno is vivid, the theological niceties presented in the other books require intellectual patience and historical knowledge to appreciate"
I'd suggest that Mhazard9 make his/her edits more judiciously (and fewer at a time), showing some recognition that mashing parts of short sentences together into longer ones, eliminating transitional words, and using ambiguous terms such as contemporary can alter the sense of the text as well as reduce prolixity. I'd also suggest that s/he make an effort to avoid solecisms like the run-on in the third example cited above, along with the various others introduced in the edits. For now, I'm reverting the edits; when I have more time, I'll try separating the wheat from the chaff and reintroducing the former to the article. Deor (talk) 22:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Defaultsort
Works of reference (Britannica, Webster's Biographical Dictionary) invariably list the fellow among the D’s, not the A’s. Do we really want to emphasize our uniqueness in this way? Deor (talk) 12:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry I felt this was too much to bear considering the ridiculous academic work supporting the consideration. I feel it'd be a clutter upon the article if it needed several citations there. Just my opinion, of course if one insists on it I cannot do anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.50.78.61 (talk) 07:58, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Inline citation
the article lacks inline citation so i started adding some from the beginning of the article, if anyone can help he is welcome.
please note that the same reference used twice makes more that one entry at the bottom of the article, how can i fix that?Mephiston999 (talk) 11:59, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the article could use more references, but citing potted online biographies and tertiary sources like the online Britannica is not the way to go; we need scholarly sources for this information. I've therefore removed the ones you added. (For guidance in citing the same source multiple times, see WP:Referencing for beginners#Same ref used twice or more.) Deor (talk) 13:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please explain where I should find the reference for all the info in the article? is there a website I can check on? Can i use my school textbooks?Mephiston999 (talk) 17:14, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
WORKS
i think that the works section is far too short considering he is one of the most famous poets and writers of human history. I was planning on translating this section from the italian one which is very well organised and divided into subsections for each work he wrote. who thinks this is a good idea?Mephiston999 (talk) 09:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dante's Racism
I was thinking a criticism section would be appropriate at the end of the article to cover Dante's anti-Semitism as found in his work. All agreed? Teetotaler 6 September, 2009
23:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)