Talk:Napoleon

The Title

I propose that this article be moved to just 'Napoleon' as that is the name more commonly used (supported by a simple google test). I skimmed the archives and nothing about this was posted since the big revision (or i did not see it). Alek2407 (talk) 04:55, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree this would be a more suitable title heading for this page Johnkennedy58 (talk) 10:44, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with a change in title as this article may then be confused with others (eg Napolean III)Jpjacobs.00 (talk) 16:28, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Jpjacobs. There were numerous Napoleons, therefore to seperate them, this should remain Napoleon I. That would be like saying "Henry" instead of "Henry I". Differentiation is important. Vyselink (talk) 22:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Napoléon's Death

I have written a summary of the current state of knowledge on Napoléon’s death. This is at translation of the whole Swedish original except for a note on who translated a quote from French to Swedish. I have just divided it into three parts. The first one goes through the evidence and debunks counter-arguments. The second one describes chronologically what happened. The third deals with the question of responsibility. It is almost too long but the purpose of the original Swedish text had two purposes. One was to explain what Napoléon died from. The other was to debunk some misconceptions on Napoléon's time on Saint Helena. I have tried to came as close as possible to what I wanted to say without violating the rules for correct English. For safety's sake it has been proof-read by the Swedish sceptic Peter Olausson.

“Napoléon was poisoned to death. There are four evidences for this. The first is his symptoms during the five years he was ill. The least interrupted description comes from Louis Joseph Marchand. As the leading of the three valets he saw Napoléon almost every day. In his diary Louis wrote down what he witnessed on Saint Helena. It was amongst other things how the ex-emperor felt and which symptoms he had. His observations are confirmed by the testimony from Napoléon's good friend Henri Gratien Bertrand. Henri held a formal office but had no real tasks. One could well say that he got paid for keeping Napoléon company. In addition there are case records from the four physicians which examined Napoléon: Barry O'Meara, John Stokoe, Francesco Antommarchi and Archibald Arnott. The person they describe is NOT a cancer patient. Instead they describe a person who repeatedly have been poisoned by certain substances.
The second evidence is the state of the inner organs at the autopsy. Francesco was the most qualified person who was present. He found no tumour much less the metastases which would have been required to kill him. The assertion that he would have done so is based on a mistranslation. On the contrary his description of the inner organs matches exactly the poisoning that will be explained later. However, Francesco did not know this: he thought that Napoléon had died from hepatitis. The necessary knowledge simply did not exist yet.
The third evidence is the fact that the dead Napoléon did not decompose normally. Despite that he had not been intentionally mummified the body had barely decomposed at all in 19 years! It has been pointed out that a carcass can be preserved under certain circumstances. But those circumstances mean constant cold alternatively a very dry climate. No-one of the circumstances reined on the site where Napoléon was buried. The body was never in contact with the earth so chemical interaction with it is eliminated. The innermost coffin was airtight and of metal. If it had been heated up over a bonfire it would had stopped the decomposition. (The tin was invented so they knew that it worked but not how.) However, this could not have happened without people noticing. Furthermore, the dead man would have smelled like baked meat when the coffin was opened.
The forth evidence is the chemical analyses which have been made on hair samples from Napoléon. They have only tested samples which authenticity has been certified by those persons which originally got them from him. (It is thus not enough with hearsay.) On of them even wrote that he had taken the hair himself from the dead Napoléon's body! All the tested hair samples have the same colour and texture. It makes it likely that they came from the same person. Hair samples taken at different occasions have different arsenic contents. But it is always considerably higher than what is normal. It has been suggested that the arsenic is a contamination as a consequence of the hair being treated with arsenic preparations. It is impossible since the content is precisely as high in the in the middle of the hairs. Furthermore, the hairs taken after his death contained two other poisons too. The last 16 millimetres contained antimony and the last millimetre mercury as well. The measurements have been made by several scientists at different laboratories. Several different methods have been used. Please note that hairs do not suck up things faster than they grow. It makes it on the other hand possible to calculate exactly when the poisoning occurred.
Four of the measurements deviate from the pattern. All the four deviating results have been done with the same measurement equipment. Despite that he hair samples had been taken at different occasions they show the same arsenic content. It was in turn two and a half times as high as the highest of the other measurements. This ought to say something about how insensitive the measurement equipment is. People which claim that those measurements are reliable also assert that it was normal at the time. It is true that it is possible to get used to arsenic. But that it should hold for a whole population of 26 million is patently absurd. Some claim that people used to utilise arsenic to wash wine barrels and wine bottles. Why would they had utilised a well-known poison for that? Furthermore, Napoléon was moderate drinker. There were thus many people which drunk more wine than him. Others assert that Napoléon fell victim to his own arsenic abuse. Arsenic can really be abused. However, no contemporary testimonies suggest that he had such an addiction. The only thing he was addicted to was snuff. On the other hand it was the only unhealthy habit that we know he had.
That Napoléon died from cancer was first suggested by Charles Tristan de Montholon. It has turned out that he often lied. On Saint Helena he lied so much that he got the nickname ‘il bugiardo’ (‘the liar’ in Italian). Several times he asserted things that are against modern medical knowledge. Sometimes he even contradicted himself! It has been claimed that metastases from Napoléon are preserved at Royal College of Surgeons' museum. On the can with alcohol is a label saying that it is a gift from Barry O'Meara. Unfortunately the tissues in the can are lymphatic glands not metastases. There is not even any sensible reason to think that they come from Napoléon. Barry was not present at the autopsy since he had left the island three years earlier. If he had ever operated Napoléon we would have known it. That Napoléon's pants shrunk steadily in size has been taken as evidence that he had died from cancer. On that toxicologist Pascal Kintz – who did some of the chemical analyses – answered:

‘You don't decide that someone is suffering from cancer by measuring the size of his trousers.’

Napoléon did really lost much in weight before he died. But this was due to severe lack of appetite not due to cancer. Please note that stomach cancer is not hereditary. It was just supposed to be hereditary by people which had pre-scientific ideas of heredity. Many other diseases have been suggested as causes of Napoléon's death. In most cases they are based on certain symptoms not all or even most! Some are even based on symptoms which Charles has made up!
High arsenic contents have also been found in hair that was taken from Napoléon before 1816. Some claim that this must mean that he was not poisoned to death. They have not understood that it was a matter of sub-lethal arsenic poisoning. ‘Sub-lethal’ means potentially lethal but not necessary so. The poisoned may thus survive and recover eventually. It was what happened to Napoléon in 1805, 1812, 1813, 1814 and 1815. When he arrived to Saint Helena he had completely recovered from the last of them. People which recover from sub-lethal poisoning shows symptoms of chronic arsenic poisoning. Persons which missed the sub-lethal attacks have suggested alternative arsenic sources. Amongst other things one has suspected the wallpaper in Napoléon's bedroom and living-room. The wallpapers where coloured with Scheele's green. The walls where so damp that they grew mouldy and emitted vapour forms of arsenic. The problem is that the suspicious wallpapers where put up three years AFTER Napoléon fell ill. Furthermore, statistics points against a source in the environment. All in all twelve people where poisoned: six adult men, four adult women, a teenage boy and a little girl. Environmental poisoning affects children at first hand. There where at least three more children in the same house but they did not fell ill. On the other hand two of the affected women did not even live on the same address! Not counting Napoléon three persons died. It was his best friend Franceschi Cipriani, one of the women, ant the little girl. However, in Napoléon's case arsenic was not the ultimate poison as we will see.”

“When Napoléon delivered himself up to the Britons a few friends and servants voluntary followed him. Furthermore an old enemy turned up unexpected. It was Charles who offered to follow him anywhere. We don’t know why Napoléon accepted him. It may have been because he was so eager to follow him. It may also have been the prospect of having sex with his rather lose wife Albine Hélène. Yes, he did have sex with her! In June 1816 she had a daughter who was christened Hélène de Montholon. We still don’t know who her dad was.
Napoléon's employees and friends treated him as a ruling monarch as long as he lived. Britons which meet him personally spooked to him as a foreign monarch unless he had said that they did not need to. Officially he was called general Bonaparte at the beginning even lieutenant-general Bonaparte! For a start the party was kept on board a ship that was anchored outside England's coast. For security reasons Napoléon was not allowed to get ashore. During the time the British government discussed what they would do with him. General Arthur Wellesley (more famous as the duke of Wellington) recommended Saint Helen. It was easy to guard and had a pleasant climate. Arthur had visited the island himself when he was on the way home from India. That was the way it of cause got too. The party was transferred to an other ship with destination Saint Helena. 69 days later they where there. It was in October 1815. The Britons tried to make it as comfortable for Napoléon as possible. As long as it did not prevent them from guarding him, of cause. They tried to protect him at least as much as preventing attempted escape. The island was easily made escape-proof. The coasts consist of high, steep rocks. The British government kept track of everyone who went ashore or left the harbour. It was only one more place where it was considered possible to get down to the shore. Every ship who approached the place would be stopped by the British navy.
Napoléon would got to live in a mansion named Longwood House. But it had to be renovated and extended first. It took about two months. During the time Napoléon lived in a pavilion that was situated in the garden of a rich family's house. There he lived with five male followers. He liked to ride and work in Longwood House' garden. When his legs become too weak to allow riding he instead used to ride in his carriage. Indoors he could read, dictate, play billiards, chess and card games with Henri. Napoléon preferred outdoor activities. Had he decided to keep indoors he easily become bored.
The first quarter of 1816 Napoléon felt ill for a couple of days in the middle of each month. The followers noticed a general degeneration of his health even if he did not say anything. About the turn of the month April/May he fell ill again. He had been stricken by sub-lethal arsenic poisoning. Before he had recovered completely he was stricken one more time. So it continued year after year. No contemporary physician could tell what Napoléon suffered from. Therefore the repeated sub-lethal poisonings could continue for years. It took until the 1950ies until someone found out what Napoléon had suffered from. It become possible through the publication of Louis' diaries.
A little more than six weeks before Napoléon died the arsenic was partly replaced with antimony. Two days later Charles offered to nurse him during the nights. It was normally Jean Abram Noverraz' job. But he had suddenly fallen ill. The antimony resulted in violent vomiting. Eventually his stomach was so overworked that he stopped to vomit. Francesco and Archibald begun to worry about if he would survive. Charles wrongfully asserted that a certain mercury salt (calomel) once had saved Napoléon's life. Archibald agreed to give it a chance but not Francesco. Two other physicians where called in so that they could discuss the issue. All except Francesco let themselves to be subdued. Napoléon was given an enormous dose of the mercury salt. Earlier the same day he had been fooled to swallow a drink that was seasoned with bitter almonds. Potassium cyanide from the bitter almonds reacted with the acidity of the stomach and with the mercury salt. The result was other mercury salts, mercuric cyanide and free mercury. As a consequence of the poisoning Napoléon now laid helpless in his bed. Within 36 hours after he had swallowed the medicine he had lost his consciousness. After a little more than 48 hours he was dead. It was in the evening the 5th of May 1821. The following day an autopsy was performed on the dead man. Francesco had company of seven British physicians but it was he who held the scalpel. After the autopsy hair and beard-stubble was shaved off. A cast was made of the front half of the head together with parts of the neck and some of the chest. The dead man was washed and dressed. Eventually the body was laid in a coffin out of tin. The tin coffin was soldered close and placed in one of wood. It was placed in its turn in one of lead which was also soldered close. The lead coffin was placed in one more of wood. Napoléon was buried there on Saint Helena in a place that is called Sane Valley. There the Britons had built a gave vault out of stone. When Napoléon was dead and buried the followers could return to Europe.
In 1840 king Louis Philippe decided that Napoléon's coffin should be brought to France. A French ship was sent to Saint Helena. Several people which had known Napoléon where present when the grave was opened. When the innermost coffin was cut open they got the surprise of their lives. The dead man was almost intact! Everyone who remembered how Napoléon had looked recognised the dead man. The body's high arsenic content – combined with the two airtight coffins – had stopped almost all decomposition. The three innermost coffins where kept. They where placed in an additional one out of lead then in two more out of wood. (All wooden coffins where made of different woods.) Finally it was laid in a sarcophagus out of red porphyry in the Invalides in Paris. There he lies buried to this day.”

“There where two persons which could had poisoned Napoléon. One was Charles who was in charge of the wine cellar. The other was the valet Étienne Saint-Dennis. He was nicknamed Ali. No-one of the two had any good alibi. There are no real evidence against any of them but the indications against Charles are considerably more. Several times he said to people that a new attack was to be expected. Then he was usually right. Furthermore, he knew several months in advance which symptoms Napoléon would get. He wrote it in letters to his wife which he sent after she had left the island. In present tense he described things that had yet not occurred! 25 years later he wrote a book about his experiences on Saint Helena. His description differs radically from the other persons'. Certain parts are so artificial that they only add to the suspicions against him. Nothing suggests that Ali knew in advance what would happen to Napoléon. He did not come with any obviously exorbitant assertions either. Something Charles did several times in his book. Ali is also less likely for an other reason. Imagine that someone has poisoned an other man to death 19 years ago. He gets an invitation to be present when the victim's grave is opened. The victim will be shown to him an several others. Would he then accept? Ali was present on Saint Helena when Napoléon's grave was opened. Charles was the only invited one who was not present despite he would have been able.
Many others have been suspected for poisoning Napoléon. Here is a list of them:

§ Hudson Lowe was governor of Saint Helena. He had nothing to do with what Napoléon ate and drunk. He has been unfairly blamed for something that he could neither had done nor prevented.
§ Henri and his family where the only followers which did not live in Longwood House. (They lived in a house nearby.) It was only the last six weeks that he at all handled Napoléon's food and drink. He then helped to nurse Napoléon who had become so weak that he needed help 24 hours a day. It was always in daytime except for the last but one night. Until then Napoléon was worst in the nights when Charles nursed him.
§ Louis seem to have been the person who most nursed Napoléon. The problem with him is that he was one of the six adult men which had been stricken by sub-lethal arsenic poisoning. An assassin who poisons himself is too clumsy to avoid detection!
§ Abram has an excellent alibi. To the day six weeks before Napoléon died he was stricken by sub-lethal arsenic poisoning. He barely recovered in time to bid farewell to his dying ruler. By then Napoléon already laid unconscious.
§ Jean Baptiste Pierron was Longwood House' cook. He did not know which portion would be served to who. Consequentially he could not poison Napoléon without poisoning everyone who ate with him. People which ate with Napoléon rarely fell ill. On the contrary everyone had their own whine bottle which makes the one who was in charge of the wine cellar more suspicious. Sure, Jean served the desserts. But several times Napoléon become worse without eating any dessert.
§ The four physicians mentioned in the first paragraph have been accused for causing Napoléon's death. The problem is that Napoléon was ill even when no-one of them where there. Furthermore, he was sceptic to physicians. It was easy to count the times he swallowed any medicine at all.

Napoléon may have called Charles ‘the most faithful of the faithful’. However, he just become fooled by an unusually ingratiating hypocrite. It was how Charles got Napoléon's trust: though his constant ingratiation. Furthermore, Napoléon lived in the illusion that loyalty could be bought. It is hard to think that Charles could had nursed Napoléon – helped him with things he in fact needed help with – without feeling some kind of sympathy. He might had thought something like ‘I have to kill him but I can't let him suffer more than necessary’.
It is entirely possible that Charles acted on his own. In that case he was solely responsible for Napoléon's death. There is no evidence for any conspiracy. If Napoléon fell victim to any such there where two possible assignors. One was Charles' close friend and France' crown prince Charles Philippe de Capet. The crown prince was a well-known intriguer who advocated political assassinations. The other was Charles' adoptive dad Charles Louis de Sémonville. We know that Charles visited him shortly before he joined Napoléon. It is also possible that both where involved. The adoptive dad would then had conveyed a commission which he had got from the crown prince. Was there an assignor Charles would not have had any choice. Had he refused he would have been killed so that he could not reveal anything. Someone else had followed Napoléon with secret commission to poison him.”

I am not an expert, just an ordinary sceptic fascinated by Napoléon. But I DO have written sources to all my claims. Questioners will be answered to the best of my physical ability.

i didn't write above but am adding signature and date so it gets archived at some point, Tom B (talk) 13:42, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Tom B. I wrote this text a few months ago. The original Swedish text have changed somewhat since I wrote it. I now intend to make a translation of the latest version to English and e-mail it to a Peter Olausson asking him to proof-read it. As soon as I get time and an account on a web hosting service I will upload a PDF version to the web which I can link to from then on.

2010-05-15 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

I have now e-mailed Peter Olausson who said that he did not intend to proof-read my text. I have corrected one more factual error. As soon as I get time and energy I will do my best to check for linguistic errors. This summer I will register an account on a web hosting service and upload a PDF-version as previously stated.

2010-05-21 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

It is strange how you can read about arsenic, [Sb], [Hg], and the entertaining types of poisining. The only reason we know of these things, was the sceptisism a Swedish dentist had towards French Authorities. The French had spent 150 years advocating the Emporor was a cancer case. Why the effort to conceal the actual cause death of the Emporor.--85.164.220.173 (talk) 22:48, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

You have not realized that there is a large amount of evidence supporting the poisoning theory. The text I originally translated to English contains some smaller factual errors but the broad outlines are supported by so much evidence that they are unlikely to change fundamentally. There are two main arguments why Napoléon did not die from cancer. First, the professional pathologist who held the scalpel at the autopsy (Francesco Antommarchi) did not find a single tumour. Second, his symptoms as described by several contemporary eyewitnesses does not match cancer. Sten Forshufvud was not only a dentist but also a toxicologist. I was told this by Ben Weider who knew him personally. Ben was one of the world’s leading experts on Napoléon. More than 50 years ago he already doubted on the traditional explanation for Napoléon’s death. Knowing his habits and having basic knowledge of healthcare Ben suspected that Napoléon should have remained healthy well into middle age. Sten’s hypothesis that Napoléon was poisoned to death did not arise from any vague distrust of French authorities. Instead his suspicions started when he read the diaries of Louis Joseph Marchand which was published in 1955. Louis was not only Napoléon’s personal servant but also his good friend. During the last seven years of Napoléon’s life Louis met him almost every day. Louis kept diaries intended to be read by his family during his whole time on Saint Helena. All events seem equally important when they have just happened. Combined with Louis’ high degree of honesty these made his diaries the most comprehensive description of Napoléon’s symptoms during his five years of continuous illness. Louis’ description is confirmed by the sketchier eyewitness account of Henri Gratien Bertrand as well as those of the four physicians which examined Napoléon. Gaspard Gourgaud has also contributed with his written testimony. Please note that the descriptions by all these people roughly mach. The differences are no more than can be explained by human error and errors of communication. Francesco Antommarchi’s description of the dead Napoléon’s internal organs is also important. All these contemporary eyewitness accounts have to be interpreted in the light of modern medical knowledge. Although we will never know everything medical science during the years 1955 – 1985 was far more advanced than during the first three decades of the 19th century. A retrodiagnosis made during the last 55 years would be much more accurate than a diagnosis made by Napoléon’s contemporaries. Sten did not have formal qualifications as a historian but he was supported by Ben as well as David Geoffrey Chandler. As experts on Napoléon these where also aware that when his grave on Saint Helena was opened in 1840 the dead man was intact enough to be recognisable. The most sensible explanation for this is the body’s high arsenic content combined with the two airtight metal coffins.

During the last 50 year there have also been forensic evidence in the form of chemical analyses of hair samples from Napoléon. There have been at least 16 such analyses out of which 12 support the poisoning theory. The remaining four where all made by the same team of scientists which does not seem to be familiar with testing of hair samples several generations old. If so the incredibly high arsenic measurements they reported may be due to an outside contamination which they did not know that they had to remove. Their claim of such a high arsenic content being normal at the time is patently absurd considering just how toxic this element is. Furthermore, none else have measured any content mote than 40 percent as high. My point is that the statement of Napoléon being poisoned to death is not a crackpot idea but a scientific theory. This is what I have tried to explain all the time.

2010-08-27 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

The latest version of my summary can now be found here. A few factual errors have been corrected and two more paragraphs added. The first of these describe Napoléon's financial situation on Saint Helena. He had to hold on to his money but could still live a comfortable life. The second one outlines the progression of his illness and when the different physicians were with him. The language of the translation has also been improved. There are still some aberrations from English linguistic usage. But at least the expressions should be understandable. I wanted to do this five months ago. However, there was a lot which I had to write before this. These texts took much longer to write than I imagined. Creating a website and uploading 23.9 MB of files was also much more laborious and troublesome than I imagined. (The PDF I just linked to is 94 kB.) But now I eventually got it done. From now on I can refer tom this text – or a later version of it – every time the cause of Napoléon’s death is wrongfully stated. I am absolutely not an expert but I understand enough of how real experts think to explain to others why it is in a certain way and not the other way around. Something I find very entertaining.

2010-12-29 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Last words

Napoléon's last words are claimed to have been "France, armée, tête d'armée, Joséphine" ("France, army, head of the army, Joséphine."). Those famous last words where made up by Charles Tristan de Montholon. At the time he claimed them to have been uttered no-one else could hear any words or even recognisable languages sounds! They did hear a sound but it was more like a music instrument than a human voice. Today it is considered to have been due to gases from an over-pressurised stomach escaping trough his throat. As such there where no intention behind it. I am not sure which his real last words where but they may well have been “give me my chamber-pot”. I know that he said so several times – and barley anything else – the day before he died. By the evening he was no longer able to speak. By four a clock in the morning he had lost his consciousness. 14 hours later he was dead.

Does anyone have an idea about how the probable last words may have sounded in French? If so, feel free to tell me. But beware of Anglicisms! Please don't translate word-by-word unless it fits French linguistic usage. However, I do not claim that Napoléon spoke perfect French. This was certainly not the case due to his combination of dyslexia and having a minority language as his mother tongue. If there where any foreign influence on his last words it would have been from the Italian dialect which later defined itself as Corsican. Yes, this is the consequence of my definition of “language”.

2010-06-14 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Considering the fact that at the age of ten, in 1779, Napoléon Bonaparte was sent to France for his education in a very good college, and that he pursued his education in the best of military schools, I doubt that, even if he was not a good speller (few were at the time), and had a Corsican accent (most French people spoke with an accent from the province they came from), his French turned out to be heavily mixed with Italian and/or an Italian dialect (=Corsican). His last words are supposed to have been: « France, armée, Joséphine », the translation of which should not lend itself to problematic Anglicisms.

--Frania W. (talk) 20:36, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

At the age of ten it is usually too late to change mother tongue. It is also a well known fact to experts in the field that Napoléon did not speak with any intonation which would have suggested having French as his mother tongue. For example, Ben Weider once wrote that he had “the accent of a Corsican”. Dyslexia is an inborn flaw in the language ability. It can be retroactively diagnosed by finding out what kind of spelling errors the person did. However, this must be quite hard in Napoléon’s case since his handwriting was very hard to read. I think this was due to a combination of defiance in fine motor ability (common among dyslectics) and impatience. Although dyslexia makes it harder to learn a foreign language a dyslectic may well speak a foreign language fluently. The Swedish crown princess Victoria is live evidence of this. She is diagnosed as dyslectic yet speaks English fluently. Please note that influences between languages don’t have to consist of vocabulary. The French Napoléon spoke may well have had its linguistic usage more or less influenced by the Corsican dialect of Italian. His pronunciation may also have resembled the sound system of his mother tongue more than the one used by the majority of native speakers of French. But as long as people understood him this would not have been any problem.

Napoléon’s last two days in life is described in chapter 44 of Mitchell Press Limited’s 1978 edition of “Assassination at St Helena” by Sten Forshufvud and Ben Weider. This is where I got my assert that Napoléon’s famous last where made up by Charles Tristan de Montholon. The same chapter of this book also tells that from the evening of the 3rd of May and until he become mute he said barely anything else than “give me my chamber-pot”. So these may well have been his real last words. I was curious about how they may have sounded in the original French. I just wanted to dissuade people which are too bad at French to try to translate it back. If nobody who read this has read the original eyewitness accounts, that is.

2010-08-27 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.151.47 (talk) 19:16, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Error in text

Referring to the sentence: "Napoleon Bonaparte (French: Napoléon Bonaparte French pronunciation: [napoleɔ̃ bɔnɑpaʁt], Italian: Napoleone di Buonaparte; 15 August 1769 – 5 May 1821), was a military and political leader of France and Emperor of the French as Napoleon I, whose actions shaped European politics in the early 19th century."

Shouldn't it say whose actions shaped European politics in the early 18th century? Since he ruled during the early 18th century? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faraz1993 (talk • contribs) 01:17, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

No. Try reading the article on 19th century and perhaps you will understand. --R'n'B (call me Russ) 14:35, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Should the sentence say "... and Emporer of the French known as Napoleon I ..."? Lambtron (talk) 19:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Napoleon, Italian?

He is listed at List of Italians, I don't think it's right. Remove? Brutal Deluxe (talk) 17:41, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello, thanks i would take it to the talkpage for that article. I wouldn't say he was Italian in the sense that Italy didn't exist then. I notice from the article there seems to be quite a wide definition for 'italian' including many people from before Italy existed, cheers Tom B (talk) 23:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

As Tpbradbury pointed out, there was no Italy at the time of the birth of Napoleone di Buonaparte. The question should not be whether he was Italian, but Genoan.[1] But, whatever he was, he was not a "Gaulois"[2] !

--Frania W. (talk) 00:29, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Since I don't feel it would be right to call him Italian in this article, I'm going to remove the mention at List of Italians and ask for citations, since he's also in the list of French people. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Surely he wasn't Italian. Corsica was officially part of France, wasn't it?? Guard Chasseur (talk) 03:28, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Corsican is not only an Italian dialect, it is more Italian than any other because, whilst being based on Tuscan (Central Italy), it shares lots of phonetic features with Southern Italy and underwent heavy influences from Genoese, i.e. from Northern Italy. --Davide41 (talk) 13:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Talking about "Italians" in 1769 is an anachronism. Plus, Corsica became a part of France almost one year before Napoleon's birth, so he can't even be said to have been born a Genovese national. Thus, calling him "Italian" or "of Italian descent" is nothing short of a complete aberration. --Alexandru Demian (talk) 11:04, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Napoleon himself was Corsican, and as such his mother tongue was the Italian dialect spoken in Corsica. As a teenager he was admitted in a French military school, the other pupils laughed at him because of his heavy Italian accent. His mother tongue was not Corsican because his family, formerly known as Buonaparte, were minor Italian nobility coming from Tuscan stock of Lombard origin set in La Spezia. --Davide41 (talk) 13:36, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree, but matey at Talk:List of Italians is gonna be hard to convince. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 13:02, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I was wrong. After one last conversation with himself (!) on his userpage, he decided we are all wrong and has now left WP.Brutal Deluxe (talk) 22:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Source. ... And twenty-five years of teaching. --Davide41 (talk) 13:49, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmm..."Italian" isn't merely a nationality, but an ethnicity; we say without any controversy, for instance, that every pope from Clement VII to John Paul I was Italian, even though the first one born in the modern country of Italy was Pius XII. As to Napoleon, I'm not sure. His father's family was Corsican going back a long while, and I'm not sure whether one should consider Corsicans to be Italian; his mother's family, however, was originally Genoese. Members of the upper classes on Corsica, to which Napoleon's family certainly belonged, spoke Italian as their primary language. Napoleon was also himself King of Italy. I don't think it would be unreasonable to say Napoleon was Italian, but I don't think it would be unreasonable not to say that, either. john k (talk) 21:57, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

01. Original Italian: Napoleone Di Buonaparte

02. Casa Buonaparte :

• Giuseppe Maria Buonaparte ( Grandfather )
• Carlo Maria Buonaparte ( Father )
• Maria Letizia Ramolino ( Mother )
• Giuseppe Buonaparte ( Original Italian - Brother )
• Maria Anna Buonaparte ( Sister )
• Luciano Buonaparte ( Original Italian - Brother )
• Maria Anna Elisa Buonaparte ( Original Italian - Sister )
• Luigi Buonaparte ( Original Italian - Brother )
• Maria Paola Buonaparte ( Original Italian - Sister )
• Maria Annunziata Carolina Buonaparte ( Original Italian - Sister )
• Girolamo Buonaparte ( Original Italian - Brother )

03. Born to parents of Italian ancestry. Source: Napoleon I." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2010. Encyclopædia Britannica Online.

04. Carlo arranged for Napoléon's education in France. He entered a military school at Brienne-le-Château, a small town near Troyes, on May 15, 1779. Napoléon considered himself an outsider, not learning French until age 10; accusations of being a foreigner would dog him throughout his life, especially since he spoke French with an Italian accent. Source: Napoleon Bonaparte - Definition.

In short terms. He was born Italian but later on became a French Emperor.

[...] Napoleon Bonaparte is technically Italian. End. --Davide41 (talk) 16:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Other Sources:

01. New World Encyclopedia. " Napoleon Bonaparte".

02. World Book Encyclopedia. " Napoleon Bonaparte". --Davide41 (talk) 15:40, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

For what it may be worth in this discussion, here is RE Napoléon Bonaparte's "acte de naissance"[3]

• Analyse: Acte de naissance de Napoléon Bonaparte, en italien. Extrait des registres de l'état civil de la ville d'Ajaccio, déposé à la mairie le 9 juillet 1806, et sa traduction en français. Un feuillet présentant le contenu de ces actes a été joint au dossier.

• Noms de lieux: France ; Corse (France - région administrative); Corse (France - collectivité territoriale) -- ancien territoire gênois ; Ajaccio (Corse-du-Sud) ; Corse-du-Sud (Corse - département) ;

As transcribed from original, it says "ancien territoire gênois", not "ancien territoire italien".

Also, Italian wiki - I know one is not supposed to use wikipedia as "proof", but here it is anyway as you can look at its references:

• Napoleone Bonaparte nacque ad Ajaccio, in Corsica poco più di un anno dopo la stipula del Trattato di Versailles del 1768 con il quale la Repubblica di Genova[4] lasciava mano libera alla Francia in Corsica, che fu così invasa dalle armate di Luigi XV ed annessa al patrimonio personale del Re.

again, no mention of Italy.

--Frania W. (talk) 14:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Grands documents de l'histoire de France ; Florilège

Acte de naissance de Napoléon Bonaparte, en italien.

Extrait des registres de l'état civil de la ville d'Ajaccio, déposé à la mairie le 9 juillet 1806, et sa traduction en français. --Davide41 (talk) 15:51, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Perfect. Thanks Frania W. " It is not wrong. " " Issue closed " --Davide41 (talk) 15:51, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

So, according to Davide41's reasoning, anyone born in Sudak could also be considered Italian. Great. At a stretch we could say that Napoleon was Italic, but the Mediterranean islands do not seem to come under that umbrella term. The language used in his birth certificate is undoubtedly Italian, though. Thanks to Frania for linking such an interesting and valuable slice of history. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 15:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

?? Sudak ?? ( ! )

• While most Corsicans spoke the Corsican dialect at home, until the first half of the nineteenth-century Italian was the language most publicly spoken and written on the island ( Nine centuries ). Sudak ( ! ) --Davide41 (talk) 16:14, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Davide41, don't you understand that having your birth certificate in Italian does not mean that you are automatically Italian? Can I also remind you that it is customary to add new comments under the latest ones? Brutal Deluxe (talk) 16:10, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Minute, Davide41! My purpose was to show that the Republic of Genoa is mentioned & never Italy. Napoléon's birth certificate was written in Italian because that was the language spoken in Genoa. People born in French-speaking Belgium, Switzerland, Québec... are not French que je sache!

--Frania W. (talk) 16:29, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok. --Davide41 (talk) 16:35, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

To summarize: Napoléon Bonaparte was a Frenchman born in Corsica one year after Corsica became a part of France. Corsica had first been a part of the independent Republic of Genoa, which later became a part of Italy. Natives of Genoa spoke an Italian dialect. Corsicans speak Corsican, and now also French. Napoléon Bonaparte spoke French with a strong Corsican accent just as people from Marseille speak French with a strong accent from Provence, which does not make them less French (Bonjour, Fernandel!). When writing French, Napoléon Bonaparte made many mistakes, as Louis XIV did, and still do thousands of French baccalaureate candidates, which is no ground to take away their French citizenship.

In a nutshell: Voilà!

--Frania W. (talk) 17:16, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok. Pure French blood. --Davide41 (talk) 19:47, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

And so that of the kings of France, Nicolas Sarkozy and the undersigned.

--Frania W. (talk) 20:21, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

duc d'Enghien controversy

I think, to make the article more neutral, it should state that although the duc d'Enghien was allegedly not in the second Cadoudal, he had still verbally stated that "he had sworn implacable hatred against Bonaparte as well as the French; he would take every occasion to make war on them." (Cronin 1994, page 242). In addition, when questioned, Enghien stated that he had been received 4,200 guineas a year from Britain "in order to combat not France but a government to which his birth had made him hostile". "I asked Britain if I might serve in her armies, but she replied that that was impossible: I must wait on the Rhine, where I could have a part to play immediately, and I was in fact waiting."

I think that the text: "On the advice of Talleyrand, Napoleon ordered the kidnapping of the Duke of Enghien, in violation of neighbouring Baden's sovereignty. After a secret trial the Duke was executed, even though he had not been involved in the plot."

Should be replaced by: "On the advice of Talleyrand, Napoleon ordered the kidnapping of the Duke of Enghien, in violation of neighbouring Baden's sovereignty. After a secret trial the Duke was executed. Although not involved in the daggers conspiracy, he had stated his hostility to France and stated he received funds from Britain."

I'm not how sure that is in terms of neutrality, but the current text should perhaps try to bring out a more balanced view of a controversial action. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.43.19.17 (talk) 00:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

He specifically stated that he was not hostile to France, based on your quote. At any rate, the current language models that of most sources I have read. It should not be surprising that an exiled Bourbon would be hostile to Napoleon, nor is that generally a crime. john k (talk) 01:35, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

thanks John. 74, thanks very much for being constructive and bringing this suggestion to the talkpage. i think there are two problems with the rephrasing, firstly it removes the Mclynn ref and we'd normally want to keep that and then add any reference like Cronin. Secondly and more importantly, I think the rephrasing looks as though it is trying to excuse Napoleon's actions i.e. "he killed this guy but this guy had threatened France". From my reading, even a historian like Mclynn, who seems relatively sympathetic to Napoleon, singles this case out, out of many controversial actions, as definitely outrageous. As John k and Mclynn both say it was no secret that Enghien was hostile to the French regime but this didn't justify moving across the border to kidnap and then the nature of the trial. From my understanding Cronin is one of the most pro-Napoleon historians. i think any rephrasing would need to say something like that whilst Enghien, like all exiles was hostile to the French regime, the kidnapping and execution had no legal basis/was unjustified etc. Tom B (talk) 11:24, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Tom, thanks for the response. I will do more research on the controversy in terms of whether it had not legal basis or was unjustified. I still do not feel that the passage is neutral on the controversy, but perhaps my rephrasing is not neutral either. I still believe that the phrase should perhaps give light to both sides of the controversy, leaving the reader to decide what he/she thinks of it.

-Talon (forgot to sign my name, don't want to be known as 74 now!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.214.186.129 (talk) 22:22, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Battle of the Pyramids

Bonaparte article contradicts Battle of the Pyramids article, to which it links.

Bonaparte: General Bonaparte's forces were greatly outnumbered by the Mamluks' cavalry—20,000 against 60,000—but he formed hollow squares with supplies kept safely inside. Three hundred French and approximately six thousand Egyptians were killed.

Battle of the Pyramids: Chandler asserts that Napoleon's 25,000-strong army outnumbered Murad's 6,000 Mamluks and 15,000 infantry. Napoleon reported a loss of 29 killed and 260 wounded. Murad's losses were far heavier, perhaps as many as 3,000 of the irreplaceable Mamluk cavalry and unknown numbers of infantry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.53.76.109 (talk) 03:44, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

thanks very much, you've spotted a significant discrepancy, i've corrected the article Tom B (talk) 00:14, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Grammatical error?

The opening sentence says "Napoleon Bonaparte was [...] Emperor of the French as Napoleon I [...]". Shouldn't it say that he was "known as" Napoleon I? Or perhaps this is an unusual sentence structure that applies to titles? Lambtron (talk) 13:43, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be various conventions on titles here at Wikipedia, it might sound a bit odd but this might be how you describe people with titles, Tom B (talk) 10:08, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I think the "as Napoleon I" is more accurate as it really reflects his title in France more than his name. For instance, Barak Obama is the US Presidents name, but we say President Obama, not "the man known as President Obama".Vyselink (talk) 17:15, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Napoleonic Propaganda

I think there should be a section or perhaps a separate page on Napoleon's use of propaganda. Specifically with regard to his use of medallions.FREV2010 (talk) 17:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi Frev, there's a reference to his setting-up of newspapers in the article. In terms of going into detail on this, it maybe better to put a section in the Napoleonic Wars, or another, different article or indeed a new article on this. Philip Dwyer's biography on Napoleon has quite a lot on his propaganda, Tom B (talk) 09:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Religion?

Why isn´t there anything about his religion? What did he believe in? And please not some tipical answer like "whatever suited him". What was his religion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.149.133 (talk) 20:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

His religion is given in the infobox. --Frania W. (talk) 22:38, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Surname

Why is his surname a different spelling to his fathers'? MrTranscript (talk) 21:59, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

When Napoleon moved to France he changed his name from the Italian Buonoparte to the more French sounding Bonaparte Jpjacobs.00 (talk) 14:48, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The height problem

I am convinced that Napoléon was short compared to the average in his society. Contemporary eyewitness accounts describe him as either short or of average height. Portraits can be considered eyewitness accounts as well provided the artist really met the portrayed person shortly before or during the making of it. As with written testimonies we have to think about idealization. During the Empire style period (roughly 1790 – 1830) a special kind of beautification was also fashionable. It worked by depicting the distances between the person's chin, mouth and nose as shorter than they really where. Fortunately, different artists minimized these distances to the same degree and some did not do it at all. Especially skilled artists like Jacques-Louis David could even choose if they would use this type of beautification or not. I can usually tell if an artist used this kind of beautification because the distances the person's chin, mouth and nose appear disproportionately small. (Although there are people which have shorter between their noses and chins than between the lower end of their noses and a line drawn between the centre of their eyes these always have the same shape of face as Genevieve O'Reilly.) Consequentially, the most realistic portraits of Napoléon are those in which the exact distances between the features of the face match people alive today. There are at least five such portraits of him. Three of them depict him with the same shape of face. These can be found here, here and here. The last portrait can be used to estimate his height based on how much of his full length his head consists.

I started with Magnus Uggla who is said to be 168 centimetres (5 feet 6 in British measurements). From this photo I can tell that his head consists 1/7 of his height. As such his head is 24 centimetres (9 2/5 inches) tall. Based on this calculation it is possible to calculate someone’s height using either a photo or a realistic portrait of him or her standing in full-length. I have tried this with the following persons:

¤ Napoléon Joseph Charles Paul Bonaparte’s height was estimated from this photo. He was 7 1/4 “heads” tall which equals to 174 centimetres (5 feet 9).
¤ Charles Jean Baptiste Bernadotte had a relatively realistic full length portrait made of himself at the age of 47. From this painting I have estimated his height to 176 centimetres (5 feet 9). This is close to his historically recorded height of 178 centimetres (5 feet 10).
¤ Ian Holm’s height was estimated from a photo taken in connection with the shooting of the first Alien movie. His head consisted 2/7 of his height which means that he was 156 centimetres (5 feet 1) back then. Before I made this estimate I already knew from his body proportions that he was less than 160 centimetres (5 feet 3). However, he is so old by now that he has probably shrunken a few centimetres. But 156 centimetres would have been his height until he started to grow noticeably old.
¤ Napoléon III’s height has been estimated from a photo as well as a realistic portrait. In both cases his head consisted 1/7 of his height. As such he was 168 centimetres (5 feet 6).
¤ Elijah Wood was estimated to be 165 centimetres (5 feet 5) based on a full-length photo of him found in a Lord of the Rings merchandise book. This was later confirmed by a person who had met him personally.

Finally, I have tested this method on myself and my dad. Both estimates where made from a photo taken in an Ames room at the Escher Museum in Hague. My head consists 3/14 of my height which is consistent with my measured height of 162 centimetres (5 feet 4). My dad’s head consists only 2/15 of his height which was unexpected since I know him to be 180 centimetres (5 feet 11). However, if I calculate with a head of 26 centimetres (10 1/4 inches) the equation ends up with a height of 182 centimetres (6 feet). I was later confirmed that he does have a larger head than me. He has a cowboy hat which fits him perfectly but which is too large to me. Please note that if my method of estimating people’s height had been fundamentally flawed it would not have given consistently credible results. If Magnus Uggla had been less than 168 centimetres all estimates would have been taller than would be sensible. If he had been taller than that all estimates would have been shorter. If human head size varied wildly the estimates would have been inconsistently unreasonable. (Although human brain size varies considerably this does not correspond to any marked difference in head size.) I draw the conclusion that my method is rather reliable with an error margin of perhaps 2 centimetres (4/5 of an inch).

Let us apply my method of estimating heights to this portrait of Napoléon. The portrait shows him to have been approximately 5.7 “heads” tall. Yes, I did take into account that he is leaning forwards! With a head of 24 centimetres (9 2/5 inches) this equals to only 137 centimetres (4 feet 6). Napoléon may very well have had a large head. Yet even with a head of 26 centimetres (10 1/4 inches) he would have been no more than 148 centimetres (4 feet 10) tall. In order to calculate a height of 168 centimetres (5 feet 6) a 31 centimetres (one foot and 1/5 of an inch) head would be required. Such a head would definitely be pathologically large. His death mask shows no sign of such pathology.

In order to depict things realistically you need three abilities. First, you need a keen sense of the proportions of things. Second, you need a good fine motor ability. Third, you need a sufficient level of training in depiction. I have a keen sense of the proportions of things. But my motor ability is noticeably impaired and I don't have much training in artistic depiction. Fortunately, my high level of spatial intelligence helps me to judge if a depiction may be realistic or not.

It has been suggested that Napoléon seemed shorter than he was because he was seen together with his Imperial Guards which where at least 180 centimetres (5 feet 11). However, this “surrounded by tall men” argument does not work on me. Imagine that you see a man of average height at some distance with tall men standing around him. In such a situation I could well mistake him for shorter than he is. Then image that you walk up to him to shake hands (or any greeting ritual involving touch). If I would stand near enough to touch him I would never misjudge his height with as much as two or three decimetres (8 inches or a foot)! As such a good artist would not be fooled if he or she was physically close enough to touch him. There are four ways to make me change my mind about Napoléon's height:

¤ Explain to me why he would have been portrayed much shorter than perceived. The explanation has to be sensible. This means no reference to claimed desperation of his enemies (Napoléon had several weak points), no conspiracy talk, and no claims about the human mind which would not be accepted modern cognitive scientists.
¤ Tell me the normal range of variation regarding the height of the head in adult humans. The numbers has to be medically sensible. They also have to be in the metric system since my calculations are made in it. Then I can recalculate my estimates.
¤ Measure Napoléon's death mask and tell me how large it is. Many death masks are claimed to be that of Napoléon. To my knowledge the only authentic one is the death mask kept in Longwood House on Saint Helena. The reasoning behind its authenticity can be found [§ here]. As previously, the measurement has to be sensible and in the metric system. I will deduct half a centimetre (1/5 of an inch) to compensate for his open mouth. Then I can make a more accurate estimate.
¤ If his grave is ever opened, show me photos of his mummy. In his unintentionally mummified corpse turns out to have other body proportions than the portrait shows I will admit that it is misleading. But in such a case the drawing still needs a credible explanation.

Please note that I don't consider Napoléon to have been a dwarf. His body proportions don’t mach any type of dwarfism I know about. He did not suffer any of the ill health effects which follow from dwarfism either. In fact he was rarely ill as adult unless deliberately poisoned. People are not necessary dwarves just because they are less than 150 centimetres (4 feet 11). Think about it this way: your genes allow you to become a little more than 150 centimetres. However, due to malnutrition or severe infections or both you end up a little less than 150 centimetres. Does this mean that you are a dwarf? Absolutely not, since dwarfism is a hereditary condition. During an individual's lifetime genes don't change in response to the environment, they change either randomly or not at all! Even without those suppressive factors there is some overlapping in height between dwarves and non-dwarves. The world's shortest population is the Pygmies which has an overage height of only 144 centimetres (4 feet 9). Yet most Pygmies don't suffer from dwarfism in any pathological sense. No, I don't think Napoléon was a Pygmy either! (In my opinion such reasoning would constitute racism.) Napoléon and his younger brothers Lucien and Jérôme where most likely about the height of an average Pygmy. (Napoléon and Lucien where both thin while Jérôme was chubby.) But they looked like typical Europeans in all other ways. It is true that Napoléon – and probably his siblings – never had to starve. I see no reason to think that there was any larger deficiency in their diet either. However, they got their share of severe infections due to their filthiness during their upbringing. To the extant the three brothers are known to have bathed and washed themselves I think they acquired those habits no earlier than their late teens. By then they had not much left to grow before reaching their adult height or had already reached it. Non-dwarves of about the same height can still be found among Europeans today. But they are probably harder to find than blonde Corsicans.

2010-12-29 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.