Talk:W. E. B. Du Bois

EDIT REQUEST: Major Flaw: DuBois is buried at his home in Accra, Ghana. The home is now the location of the W.E.B. Du Bois Memorial Centre for Pan-African Culture. (I was there yesterday.)Trinarina (talk) 20:44, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

a couple of crucial flaws: "subtler" thinking, and "father"...

the passage about dubois's "subtler" thinking has no place in the wiki. Dorr's paper is a poorly written piece of scholarship resting on the thesis that if we don't argue that DuBois was kind-of-a-racist, then we've stripped him of his agency. notably, most (or all) of Dorr's quotations of DuBois are cut short, stripped of context, and Dorr adds in his own editorial context to construct his argument. (for example: in one piece of his essay, for Dorr's argument to work, "spiritual ideals" must be thought by DuBois to be genetically endowed. if you refer to Dorr's essay, you will you see what i mean.) and, precisely that phenomenon has appeared in the wiki. notice how there is NO QUOTE given for the nonsense about the talented tenth and DuBois encouraging them to marry. we could just as well assume that he was afraid they'd commit themselves so strongly to public service that they wouldn't allow themselves the personal or spiritual pleasures of family life. can anybody really argue why interpretation is less appropriate than projecting "subtle hereditarian" ideas onto DuBois, using nothing but the vague unattributed reference to his encouragement of marriage?

the point is: no. so the whole thing has no place, unless somebody finds something of substance to contribute.

furthermore, the line "and indeed, is considered the father of African-American culture" makes an absurd claim. most importantly, for the purposes of the wiki, the following question must be raised: considered BY WHO? the passage is a very shoddy piece of journalizing; it's unattributed and sensational. but secondly, it's obvious to anyone who has read DuBois's work that he would never accept or agree with the description "the father of african-american culture." the effective entirety of Souls of Black Folk is a sociological study detailing the characteristics and nuances of black culture(s) in America. therefore it's completely nonsensical to consider him to somehow be the father or originator of "african-american culture." obviously he was a member of it and a scholar of it, not the "father" of it. that's an absurd and meaningless claim.

but i'm not going to waste my time changing the wiki when some self-appointed steward is going to retrieve and reinstate those severely flawed passages that are in serious need of remedy.

(additionally, the discussion or article were apparently completely erased recently by somebody at my IP address (or spoofed address?). i have to admit that by some really unfortunate mistake, i COULD POSSIBLY HAVE deleted it-- NOT ON PURPOSE. i'm on dial-up, and my computer has serious RAM/swapspace issues, so i deal with major lag and herky-jerkiness, and it seems plausible that i somehow accidentally highlighted the entire text-box and accidentally scrubbed it. because it doesn't seem likely that a vandal, from my same IP, would vandalize the article ON THE SAME DAY that i contributed to the discussion page... so i'm sorry if i'm somehow responsible.)128.119.132.42 22:25, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Du Bois or DuBois?

Sources differ. Google says DuBois, by a small but significant margin. --The Anome 11:34, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I just finished writing a research paper on W.E.B. Du Bois for a Southern politics class. Every single source I used for the paper listed his name as "W.E.B. Du Bois" --Naked Yoga 20:04, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The article now has it both ways -- clearly the worst answer for someone seeking clarification (as I was). Someone should decide and make it consistent.

--priceyeah

I wouldn't trust google on this one. It should be Du Bois, this is how it is spelled on most of the editions of his books on Amazon.com and all of the ones on Project Gutenberg as well as in the title of the Pullitzer prize winning biography of him. The W.E.B. Du Bois Boyhood Homesite is a National Historical Landmark. If there aren't any objections I'm going to change it. GabrielF 23:46, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

What is with the initials anyway? I mean, one would expect it to be "W. E. B. Dubois" not this "W.E.B. DuBois" or whatever it is. --Maru (talk) 06:16, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Well Romania has alternated spellings, too. Is it really important to haggle over the spelling of the name? "Du Bois" is pretty authoritative, but the wiki should probably mention something like "often seen written as "Dubois" and "DuBois"". that seems appropriate, and informative.128.119.132.42 22:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

On the principle that everyone has the right to spell their name how they want, there's no doubt that it is Du Bois. In the magazine he edited, and in his signature, it is clearly Du Bois. (unsigned)

---

The page spelled "DuBois" needs to be a redirect to this article, which should be titled "W.E.B. Du Bois". This would require a move. --Iggle 19:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Dew Boyce?

The pronunciation guide says Dew Boyce. I've always heard it with a voiced final consonant -- dew boyz. The sound file here confirms this. -- Rbellin|Talk 23:15, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That source actually gives the more uneducated-sounding /du:'bɔɪz/ rather than what you said: /dju:'bɔɪz/. However, if the man said it was pronounced /dju:'bɔɪs/, we should go with that. — Helpful Dave 11:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In my dialect of English, "dew" is pronounced IPA /du/, not IPA /dju/. Apologies for the confusion -- I should have written "doo" instead. (I do not believe anyone, ever, says /dju:'bɔɪz/, nor that WEB Du Bois intended this pronunciation by writing "Dew" himself as a guide.) -- Rbellin|Talk 03:02, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

OK, he should have written "doo" as well, if that's what he meant. I've no idea how he said it. I just know about English and French pronunciation. :) — Helpful Dave 07:53, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It should be Du Bois (doo bwoh)...where did this dew boyce start anyway?

It's the way he pronounced it. The "correct" or usual pronunciation of the name is irrelevant. Fan-1967 05:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

According to a source I used on a recent research paper on Du Bois, his name is pronounced "Due Boyss" with the stress on the second syllable. --Naked Yoga 20:03, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The link to the sound file provided by Rbellin, here, does not append an "s" or "z" sound to the "Bois" portion of the name, pronouncing it as "boy". Also, the source listed in the article states, "...Bois, as oi in voice. " I would assume that if it were pronounced "boyce" the quotation would read "as oice in voice"; or if it were pronounced "boyz" as currently stated in the article, a different word such as "boys" or "poise" would have been used as a comparison, and likewise would have included the "oys" or "oise", respectively. As neither case is true, I deduce this as a second source implying pronunciation as "boy" and not "boyce" or "boyz". Would anyone else like to confirm this logic and move for an edit? Elbreapoly (talk) 18:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Both the text and the sound file in the Bartleby link you provide include an /s/ sound at the end. As for the source listed in the article, people who are not linguists often give confusing explanations of pronunciations. His intent was presumably mainly to clarify the pronunciation of the vowels, which he thought of as the tricky bit, but he chose "voice" rather than, say, "boy" because of the rhyme. It seems to me that the evidence favors /s/ rather than the /z/ the article currently has. —KCinDC (talk) 05:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

recent edit

W.E.B. DuBois visited Communist China during the Great Leap Forward and never supported famine-related criticisms of the Great Leap. Another author visiting China during the Great Leap named Anna Louise Strong wrote a book titled When Serfs Stood Up in Tibet based on her experience. Both these authors, however, had been taken through Potemkin-village style tours of China, never travelling outside of the supervision of the authorities. Both DuBois and Strong's are infamous for their rose-coloured depiction of the unfortunate events of that era, famine and the invasion of Tibet.

Regarding this edit: This reverts changes I made to attempt NPOV on DuBois and China. I believe the paragraph it reintroduces (quoted above) is self-evidently biased (check out those adjectives: "rose-coloured", "Potemkin-village-style", "infamous"?) and needs to be NPOV-ed. In addition, Anna Louise Strong is irrelevant here: this is an article on DuBois. This edit also pointlessly reverts several apparently uncontroversial header changes, and the paragraph is badly formatted in any case (needs itals, invasion of Tibet is a non-functioning link, etc). I won't engage in a revert war, but I'm trying once more to fix this. -- Rbellin|Talk 22:49, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If by "fix" you mean pro-DuBois revisionism, understood. The man was a communist who visited communist china during the height of the red scare, and wrote rose-tinted depictions of what was both one of the worst man-made famines in human history, and one of the most obvious disasters of central planning and communist economics. I excused him somewhat, given his chaperoning, but his actions were reminiscent of Jane Fonda in Vietnam (well, not that bad, but you get my point). Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 23:12, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It is not the job of a Wikipedia article to make editorial value-judgments. Remember: articles must use a neutral point of view. That DuBois was a Communist at the end of his life is indisputable; but to write that his writing on China was "rose-tinted" and that the Great Leap Forward was an "obvious disaster" is pure POV. Anyway, arguments about the Great Leap Forward belong in that article, not here, as does Anna Louise Strong. Removing obvious bias is hardly "pro-DuBois revisionism". What this article badly needs is more content on DuBois's life and work, anyway; but this paragraph only hurts the article (and Wikipedia's reputation as a trustworthy source of information rather than partisanship). -- Rbellin|Talk 21:25, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It would seem that to be neutral in your eyes, ones statements must be completely lacking in substance and insight. If you have contrary information, I would be glad to hear it, and I am willing to accept different turns of phrase than "rose-tinted" and "obvious disaster", so long as they remain factually accurate. Mention of Anna Louise Strong is of value here, she shared a similar tour of China at about the same time. As far as POV, POV might have been calling DuBois a traitor to God, country, and humanity for his treasonous actions at that time. Instead, I chose to at least partially excuse him, by emphasizing his theoretical ignorance of the Chinese plight of that era. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 17:18, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'd say it's fair to call it a "disaster", though it wasn't "obvious" to all, so we might leave that out. — Helpful Dave 11:27, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Where does the term "Stalinist" appear in the article other than his kind words spoken at Stalin's death? nobs

FBI file

Removing the following text:

J. Edgar Hoover wrote a memo to the FBI on October 6, 1950 that while he is a "strong believer in free speech," a report of a speech made by DuBois seemed to be "subversive to a degree that makes [his] blood boil," and that he wishes the government "could squelch some of the people who are talking like this DuBois."

The letter in question was sent to Hoover, not written by him (page 43 of the FOIA PDF of DuBois's FBI file, linked at article bottom). The sender's name and address are redacted. It seems to me a bad idea for Wikipedia to report anonymous slanders which may well have been sent to the FBI by cranks or rivals, so I am removing the text. -- Rbellin|Talk 17:14, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

dispute

For the benefit of TDC, I'm posting here the text of the listing on RfC for this page and Pablo Neruda: "Were these historical figures actually "Stalinists"? If so, is this fact important enough to include in the introductions to these articles? Is it true that they actually performed the pro-Soviet activities listed in their articles? How much space should be devoted to such activities compared to the activities they are famous for to the general public?" Gamaliel 18:16, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well he was a communist during stalins regime. Maybe he is better classified a maoist? Sam Spade 19:16, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion both DuBois and Neruda can be called "Stalinists" only by enormously expanding the meaning of the word, to the point where (as Sam Spade has it above) a "Stalinist" is not an explicit backer of Stalin's policies and positions, but instead, by default, anyone who was a Communist or sympathetic to Communism, and not a Maoist or Trotskyist, during Stalin's time in power, and/or anyone who ever said a nice thing about Stalin. To use this broad a sense of the word is a tendentious distortion of its usual meaning. Therefore, my opinion is (a) that it makes little sense to call either one a Stalinist and (b) that their pro-Soviet positions are not the most significant points about either one, and should be treated only briefly in their articles. I have little taste for the partisan bickering and edit-warring which characterize most of the edits to this article, so I'm unwatching it and moving on to other topics. But it seems a shame to allow the kind of naked POV-pushing that might be expected on current politics spread into articles on major intellectual and artistic figures. Let's not waste more time re-fighting the Cold War when a better article on either DuBois or Neruda would be so easy to create. -- Rbellin|Talk 02:58, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

American?

It seems a little POV to me that Du Bois is constantly listed as American in this article, when he angrily renounced his citizenship and moved to Ghana, where he gained citizenship. That he was born and lived in the United States doesn't seem to really be applicable; we don't consider Albert Einstein's 54 years in Germany enough to categorize him German, nor do we consider Ayn Rand a Soviet. Calling Du Bois an American seems to me just a denial of his pointed objections to and renunciation of the United States. He should be listed as a Ghanaian, as he was legally classified when he died. Sarge Baldy 16:18, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

This seems silly to me. He is most known for his work in America. He only spent two years in Ghana. Britannica identifies him as American, as does every biographical database and reference work I've looked at. Gamaliel 01:09, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

What I meant to say in my edit summary was "calling him Ghanian in the intro creates a false impression". Of course the entry/article should mention this fact. Gamaliel 01:17, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, I never changed anything in the article, I wanted to put it up for debate in the talk page first since I was sure there'd be conflict as to the matter. Certainly I want people to recognize that he was born and lived much of his life in the United States, but he chose to become Ghanaian and did. I think the current wording makes both points fairly evident. Sarge Baldy 01:37, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

I don't like the newest version at all. Why does that point need to be segregated from his other descriptions? I don't see why it matters that it was "at the end of his life". "American-born" clarifies enough where he was originally from, and "naturalized Ghanaian" clarifies that he himself no longer regarded himself as American at the end of his lifetime. The current wording just makes it sound like he emigrated to Ghana to retire and die. Sarge Baldy 06:08, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

I added "African American" to the short bio, because I feel that info was missing (I came to that page not sure of whether he was or not, and the picture didn't really help). I don't think it conflicts with this dicussion on nationality since "African American" is more about ethnicity than nationality (if you want, at the end of his life he was a ghanian african american ^-^ ) Flammifer 09:07, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He didn't renounce his American citizenship when he became a Ghanian citizen. He couldn't get a U.S. passport, so the Ghanian dictator gave him dual citizenship.

So was he born in Ghana or Mass.?

The intro says he's a naturalized citizen, but then it says he was born in Mass... Which is it?

Naturalization means changing citizenship to that of a state you weren't born in. He was born in Massachusetts, but became a Ghanian citizen in 1963. Having been born in the U.S. and immigrated to Ghana, that makes him a naturalized citizen. Sarge Baldy 21:40, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

I added "at the age of 95" to the first paragraph. i think it helps put the fact into perspective, and won't allow to anyone to mistakenly think that he lived a significant portion of his life as a citizen of ghana, (and certainly not that he was born there.)128.119.132.42 22:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Education Controversy?

The page on Edward Bouchet states that Edward "..resigned in 1902 at the height of W.E.B. DuBois' controversy over industrial vs. collegiate education.". But I couldn't find anything about this controversy in the article on DuBois. Can anyone add something about this? -Feb 6, 2006

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 10:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

I disagree that the page should be moved. Nobody ever refers to the subject as "William Edward Burghardt Du Bois". He is alsways called "W.E.B. DuBois". We should certainly include the full name in the text, but the title should have the most common name. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people). -Will Beback 21:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

• Indeed. I agree. I mean, sometimes there is some question about just how common a person's name is, but he is almost universally referred to as W.E.B. DuBois (with minor variations in punctuation and capitalization). older ≠ wiser 02:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose the move. Article title should be the common name of the subject. The opening should contain the full name. --Tysto 04:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose the move for reason stated by Tysto. skywriter 11:57, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Revert reason

16:10, 19 May 2006 210.84.5.184 Current revision 210.84.5.184 (Talk)

+ *"[I]t takes extraordinary training and opportunity to make the average white man anything but a hog." [1]

The above text added by first time anonymous user 210.84.5.184 is now reverted because the text does not derive from a reputable source for quotations by the subject of this article.Skywriter 16:25, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

It does now. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 16:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Article title/body name spelling

Can someone please make consistent the spelling of the name in the article title and the article itself? Whether or not this has been beaten to death, they ought to be the same... (and I'm voting W.E.B. Du Bois) Outriggr 03:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It is properly Du Bois. However, some references use DuBois and can not be located without that spelling. Skywriter 03:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Not sure of your point. The redirects are in place for either spelling, so moving the article to W.E.B. Du Bois should present no problem... Outriggr 05:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Skywriter 15:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Clarification

"In an article published June 8, 1997 and titled "A New and Changed NAACP Magazine" by James Bock in The Baltimore Sun, the Crisis, under the stewardship of Du Bois, set the agenda for the fledgling NAACP."

I'm not sure what this sentence is trying to say; it seems to be missing a connective phrase somewhere. Was the article about how "Crisis" set the agenda for the NAACP? If so, there needs to be something like "according to" somewhere to make the relationship more clear. Gershwinrb 20:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

"set" is the verb or connector word. "established" might remove the ambiguity. Skywriter 21:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Then is that date right? Or was the subject of the article how Crisis established the NAACP's agenda. I don't mean to seem dense, but I'm honestly not seeing this one. Gershwinrb 01:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

started first department of sociology in US?

It says that W.E.B. Du Bois started the first department of sociology in the US but while reading up on the University of Chicago, I found that the same claim is attributed to that school. Specifcally, the page says "The university is also known for creating the first sociology department in the world, which later founded its own school of sociology." Could someone please find out which came first (Dubois's or chicago's) and correct the error?

Good question.

• UChi at http://sociology.uchicago.edu/ says it was "Founded in 1892 as the first sociology department in the United States". The article W.E.B. DuBois says he founded the dept of sociology at Atlanta U some time after his Ph.D (1896) and after teaching at two other institutions after that. So a re-write of the claim would be in order. See also Clark Atlanta University

Adding the space in Du Bois

I've gone through and added the space in Du Bois' name in the text of the article as well as in the references. I don't believe I made any changes in links--apologies if so and the links no longer work!

My company administers rights for the W.E.B. Du Bois Trust, and as his step-son David told me once, "The Doctor insisted upon the space!" and so, too, should Wiki.

On another note, Du Bois never actually renounced his citizenship. It was never his intention to do so (although rumours, probably started by his political enemies, continue to exist that he not only renounced his citizenship but did so "angrily"). There has been some recent evidence that the FBI took steps to revoke his citizenship, but that action (of which Du Bois was never made aware) didn't get very far and stopped, of course, with his death.

The above information was added 23:11, September 19, 2006 by Perm Dude - (Adding the space in Du Bois)

Darkened skin color

I think that his image has been manipulated to give his skin tone more darkness than nature imbued in him. People want to claim that the colored man with the Caucasian features was a " black," but he was not. GhostofSuperslum 12:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Buried history

The article features so many exclamations of the words "African American," "Black," and so on that they blur the descriptions of Mr. Du Bois. Someone should strip away those silly words. The article is named W.E.B. Du Bois, not Adjectives which are employed to describe them darkies. Other articles which describe men aren't slathered with the people's skin color. The article on Mao Tse Tung doesn't relentlessy call him a "yellow." GhostofSuperslum 13:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I have never seen the phrase "descendant of slaves" in any wikipedia article. I have never seen the phrase "descendant of slaveowners" in any wikipedia article. Why are people reluctant to utilize those phrases in Wikipedia? W.E.B. Du Bois looks like a typical American Negro who is a descendant of slaves and slaveowners (perhaps with some American Indian admixture). Where is he entombed? I'd like to see someone go out and sample his DNA to see what "race" or "ethnic group" he belonged in. I am not convinced that he was a black." GhostofSuperslum 14:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dubois and Pragmatism??

I don't know where to put this or how relevant this is, but I see that neither this page nor William James's page references any relationship between the two of them. Although my scope of knowledge in terms of the two of them is limited, one source I have been reading talks about a strong relationship between them two that had strong influences on Dubois's racial doctrines. I also don't know how popularly accepted this connection/influence is. The source is COLOR AND CULTURE by Ross Posnock. Perhaps the connection is noteworthy?

Childhood section

We just had an anonymous IP make a major change to what was a large section concerning Du Bois' childhood. I edited some of the grammar just for clarity, but I'm thinking the older one was better, though I can't tell if it's quoted from the book. I think we ought to edit from where Jarfingle had it and go from there. --Gpohara 03:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Ancestry

Having just signed up, and being hopeless at computer stuff, I don't know where or how to put this. Please forgive my ignorance! The article says that his great-grandfather James DuBois of Poughkeepsie was "a person of color." W. E. B. Du Bois makes it clear in his Autobiography that James DuBois was a white descendant of Jacques DuBois, a 17th century Huguenot settler in Kingston, NY. (Brother of Louis DuBois, a founder of New Paltz. See the DuBois Family Association web pages, which mention W. E. B. Du Bois.) The Autobiography also mentions that some of his DuBois cousins were "passing."Wikisirius 22:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You did just fine. If you want to edit the paragraph so that it doesn't describe James Du Bois as an "ethnically mixed free [person] of color," go ahead. Another editor may challenge you, so you might want to make a footnote with a reference to the page or section in the Autobiography. If you need any help, just ask. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 22:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Roxannelawson edits copied from other website

I googled a portion of Roxannelawson's edits and found a biography being copied word-for-word. I'm going to start reverting these unless an admin asks me otherwise. [2]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gpohara (talk • contribs) 03:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

Apologies for not signing.--Gpohara 03:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Another website with copied info. [3] --Gpohara 04:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm done reverting for 24 hours per WP:3RR. Request some admin assistance in getting this sorted out. Happy New Year all. --Gpohara 04:22, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The first quotation by David Levering Lewis in the section: American Historical Association is marked as needing a citation. It is from the same pdf source as the second quotation in that section. ChrisFAF 18:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Put the Spelling/Pronunciation Issue in the Article

I think it's appropriate that the matter of "'doo boyz' or 'du bwa,'" "'Du Bois' or DuBois'" be mentioned in the article. It's a common question people develop when learning about the man, and if there are reasonably "correct" answers out there (which there seem to be), they ought to be mentioned in an encyclopaedic article about him.

(Commando303)

You're right; there is some confusion about the correct pronunciation of Du Bois. The first sentence of the article identifies the correct pronunciation, which is the one used by Dr. Du Bois himself: William Edward Burghardt Du Bois (pronounced [dʊˈboɪz]). — Malik Shabazz | Talk 21:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The article says /duːˈbɔɪz/, but the source referenced says "My name is pronounced in the clear English fashion: Du with u as in Sue; Bois, as oi in voice." That doesn't directly say how to pronounce the "s", but the choice of "voice" as an example implies the correct pronunciation is /duːˈbɔɪs/ (with "boyce", not "boys"). —KCinDC (talk) 16:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

"Due Boys" it is. Please see this for more about the pronunciation. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 23:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Support for Japanese Imperialism?

If he truly supported Japan in its invasion of Manchuria on the basis of "race," then how is he any different from Marcus Garvey , who supported Tojo of Japan in his infamous Rape of Nanjing , and also in Tojo's usage of Korean women as "comfort women" ie raping prisoners, and using them as sex toys, by the Japanese army?JBDay 18:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Alfred Du Bois

According to the article, Alfred Du Bois was born in 1825 in "Santo Domingo, now Haiti and the Dominican Republic." But from 1820 to 1844 the entire island of Hispaniola was under Haitian rule (see History of Haiti), so Alfred Du Bois was born in Haiti, no matter what part of the island he was born in.

The statement in quotes above is attributed to the Lewis biography, which I haven't read, but it seems to contradict both the history of Haiti (as I have noted) and the quote from the autobiography that follows: "Of grandfather's life in Haiti from about 1821 to 1830, I know few details. From his 18th to his 27th year he formed acquaintanceships, earned a living, married and had a son, my father, Alfred, born in 1825. ... Also why he left Haiti in 1830 is not clear."

All the facts seem to indicate that Alfred Du Bois was born in Haiti, not "Santo Domingo." I'm going to change the article to say that, and if somebody can explain why Alfred Du Bois was not born in Haiti she/he can change it back. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 19:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it meant he was born in the city of Santo Domingo during the Haitian occupation of the Eastern portion of the island. Which would make him born in Santo Domingo, Haiti but is currently (and for most of history) part of the Dominican Republic/Santo Domingo. Karayan1103 (talk) 09:47, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Rivary with Garvey no where in article

What about the conflict between him and Garvey why isnt this in the article?--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 20:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Communist Party activist

I deleted the phrase "Communist Party activist" from the lede, and I wanted to explain why, because it was recently restored by an anonymous editor with the following edit summary:

For some reason this was edited out again; DuBois was a proud Communist at it is a disservice to his memory for him to be remembered otherwise.

Yes, Du Bois was a Communist, and I have no doubt that he was a proud Communist. But the question of his pride isn't the issue here. The issue is what belongs in the lede. The reasons why Du Bois is notable are that he was "an American civil rights activist, leader, Pan-Africanist, sociologist, educator, historian, writer, editor, poet, and scholar." He is not notable, nor is he remembered, for being a Communist.

WP:LEDE says that "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources."

In an article of nearly 40 paragraphs, only 3 of them discuss Du Bois' association with Communism, Communists, or alleged Communists. Only a single sentence refers to his joining the Communist Party at age 93. I don't think that makes his association with, or membership in, the Communist Party important enough to belong in the lede. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 23:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Eugenics and POV

The section on eugenics is being given undue weight. It is as long as the section on civil rights activism (which would be shorter without the images and navigation template) and longer than the section on criminology. Whatever Du Bois' views on eugenics, they were a footnote in his career. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, everyone remembers that Woodrow Wilson was an eugenicist at the same time as Du Bois.Why to place Du Bois' eugenics in the footnote?To be an eugenicist in 1910 and 1920 decades was so normal as to be an ecologist today.Agre22 (talk) 14:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)agre22

It is important to discuss Du Bois' views on eugenics for two reasons. For one, it goes against "common sense" that a prominent African-American intellectual would find any favor with eugenics whatsoever. Therefore, it is an interesting addition to the article. Also it is important, in that it offers another perspective on Du Bois' essential elitism. Furthermore, it broadens the reader's perspective on the surprisingly wide appeal of eugenics in the interwar period.Ostiaiii10 (talk) 06:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Ostiaiii10; this is an important topic today and his views are quite important. Note that Margaret Sanger enlisted many prominent black intellectuals in her birth control movement. Rjensen (talk) 06:45, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Eugenics

I put the section in on Eugenics because its absence created a large void in this article. On the whole, the article lacks comprehensiveness and fails to touch on many important points--his personal life (two wives, children, etc.), his conflict with Booker T. Washington and Marcus Garvey, his growing disillusionment with the US and his decision to move to Ghana, his political involvement, a real overview of his philosophy of race and equality, etc. The section on Eugenics is not too long, the rest of the article, including Civil Rights and Criminology are too short. I even added a short section to his education section, which I thought everyone knew about--there's even a play about his summer in 1888 in Minnesota working at a resort hotel with rich white southerners and European royalty. I'll try to expand some of this article to make to include much needed information about this important man. 63.87.116.131 (talk) 17:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)rosspz

Mural

I don't know how significant this would be to anyone who has never been to Great Barrington, MA, but a sa resident of the area, I think that the mural dedicated to Du Bois in Grat Barrington should be mentioned under "Legacy." -- Kimimaro216 (talk) 17:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Marxist

Du Bois was a Marxist. I think that should be included in the first paragraph where he is also described in multiple other ways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.190.19.24 (talk) 03:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

He was also an eugenicistAgre22 (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)agre22

Garvey conflict with dubois needs to be in here

While W. E. B. Du Bois expressed the Black Star Line was "original and promising," he also said: "Marcus Garvey is, without doubt, the most dangerous enemy of the Negro race in America and in the world. He is either a lunatic or a traitor." Du Bois was afraid that Garvey's extremism would undermine his efforts toward black rights.

Garvey suspected Du Bois was prejudiced against him because he was a Caribbean native with darker skin. Garvey called Du Bois "purely and simply a white man's nigger" and "a little Dutch, a little French, a little Negro ... a mulatto ... a monstrosity." This led to an acrimonious relationship between Garvey and the NAACP. Garvey accused Du Bois of paying conspirators to sabotage the Black Star Line to destroy his reputation. Du Bois was, nevertheless, a strong supporter of Pan-Africanism.

Garvey recognized the influence of the Ku Klux Klan, and in early 1922, he went to Atlanta, Georgia for a conference with KKK imperial giant Edward Young Clarke.

According to Garvey, "I regard the Klan, the Anglo-Saxon clubs and White American societies, as far as the Negro is concerned, as better friends of the race than all other groups of hypocritical whites put together. I like honesty and fair play. You may call me a Klansman if you will, but, potentially, every white man is a Klansman, as far as the Negro in competition with whites socially, economically and politically is concerned, and there is no use lying."

After Garvey's entente with the Ku Klux Klan, a number of African American leaders appealed to U.S. Attorney General Harry M. Daugherty to have Garvey incarcerated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.236.143 (talk • contribs) Hello my name is Alexus DeAndra Alford. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.15.67.253 (talk) 22:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

"Spill in Aisle 7"

While editing this article I seem to have messed up. I inadvertantly collected all the references together (after #15). Rather than make it worse I have asked for assistance, If you can repair, Please do! I believe it has to do with my misplacement of <"blockquote">--Buster7 (talk) 08:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Soumyasch....--Buster7 (talk) 12:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

From the introduction

Du Bois is described as a civil rights activist, public intellectual, Pan-Africanist, sociologist, educator, historian, educator, writer, editor, poet and scholar. This seems superfluous to me. Is it really necessary, and indeed NPOV, to describe Du Bois in one breath as a writer and a poet, or historian, educator and scholar? Surely this can be cut down to be a bit more concise. The introduction just seems too fawning for the NPOV requirement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.1.104.176 (talk) 17:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Family history

This section seems overlong, especially the description of Du Bois and his mother when he was a child. Could be made more concise.--Parkwells (talk) 01:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Black or black, White or white

We seem to have some lack of consistency (black/Black, white/White) . . . fixing it is beyond my capability - can someone straighten this out? - b betswiki (talk) 06:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

a little elucidation: usually this sort of thing is determined by the discipline into which the piece falls . . . . would this then be sociology? black/Black history? after that, one finds and follows the style guide for the most respected journal for that discipline (within the US, i would think, for this article), which of course might be a matter for debate . . . i have read from some of the better known journals in fields that into which this article might fall - and there is not consistency . . . . the first question would be 'which field?' . . . just arguing about that could take us a long time! b betswiki (talk) 23:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Name

I know, I know, it's pretty trivial, but seriously, why is this article at "W. E. B. Du Bois"? Does anyone, at all, ever, put spaces between multiple initials? I've never seen a name written in this style before. Surely "W.E.B. Du Bois" would a) look much nicer and b) be the most used form of the name. U-Mos (talk) 22:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Call for editors to collaborate on a new African history Wikiproject

All editors with a specific interest in African history are invited to help start a new African history Wikiproject. This is not a substitute for the Africa Wikiproject, but editors with a historian's perspective on African history articles (as opposed to a generalist interest in Africa) would collaborate on improving the historical quality of Wikipedia articles about Africa and African history. For more details click here or here here. —Preceding undated comment added 16:28, 11 August 2009 (UTC).

Edit request from 74.97.242.148, 15 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} du bois was 33 in 1900

74.97.242.148 (talk) 10:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done and thanks. But, please be more descriptive next time. --JokerXtreme (talk) 11:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes

This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:35, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

Jewish?

Was his "Dutch" ancestry Jewish? I have seen this claimed in some places. In some pictures, he looks quite a lot like Lenin, who was Jewish. He certainly doesn't look properly black, like Marcus Garvey for instance. - 90.212.77.135 (talk) 08:19, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

         The founders and originators of the NAACP are first and foremost Mary White Ovington who contacted people and called the first meeting in 1908 in rsponse to an article written by William English Wallings. Charles Edward Russell who could not attend the meeting in 1908 and Henry Moskowitz who substituted in Russells place at the initial meeting. Oswald Garison Villiard who on their request re-wrote the "The Call" was latter called a fifth founder by Ovington. A good source for the birth and origin of the NAACP is "Inheritors of the Spirit" a autobiography of Mary White Ovington by Carolyn Wedin and "The Walls Came Tumbling Down" a self-autobiography by Mary White Ovington. Dubois is not the founder of the NAACP he was one of a number of people who were asked to attend the initial meetings and was not the originator of the NAACP. He was chosen as Director of Publicity and Reasearch at the 1910 meeting but Ovington,Wallings, Villiard and John Milholland had to find an office and raise the money for his position. The name of the "Crisis" came from a favorite poem of Ovington by James Russell Lowell called "The Present Crisis." Dubois had repeated hostile personality conflicts with board menbers , chairmen, and exexutive secretaries over his role with the "Crisis" and the direction of the organization throughout his time with the NAACP until he was eventuslly driven out of the organization.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.43.210.124 (talk) 06:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC) 

African American

I think the introduction of the article should contain the fact that he was African-American. That is very important fact for understanding of the article. Currently, the introduction says nothing about his skin color, and the photo is black and white, so it's hard for someone who is not familiar with the subject to realize his African-American origin. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:01, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

purge

I have removed "Du Bois, apparently not believing reports of Stalin's purges and dismissing them as propaganda", as well as the addendum to "Khrushchev's 1956 'Cult of Personality' speech" that is "which seemed to further evidence Stalin's purges."

There is no citation that Du Bois did not believe in "Stalin's purges". As the western press was invited to the trials, and they were reported on everywhere from the Daily Worker to the New York Times, this completely inane uncited notion could only be put in by someone who is both completely ignorant of communism and history, yet committed to spreading their ignorant Cold Warrior propaganda imaginings to the world as fact on Wikipedia. Du Bois knew one of the people purged - Karl Radek - very well, and the notion that he was unaware of Radek, as well as others, being purged, is ridiculous. And of course, uncited, as nowhere else but Wikipedia could you hear such prattle. Ruy Lopez (talk) 11:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)