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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 98.223.65.209 (talk) at 01:26, 11 August 2011 (→‎Death of Mark Duggan). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Death of Mark Duggan

(article moved several times since AfD began)

Death of Mark Duggan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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I am proposing this article for deletion because I don't think it really adds anything to the encyclopedia. I think it would be better if the page redirected to 2011 London riots 5 albert square (talk) 20:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The riots have the potential to become historic and notable. I see you acknowledge this by agreeing to have an article on the riots. In similar case, we have also subarticles on the persons who were somehow the case of the riots. Why do you wish to follow a different approach here? Tomeasy T C 20:51, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, the riots themselves have the potential to become notable. However I still don't see that there is anything covered in Mark Duggan's article that isn't or couldn't be covered in the London Riots article. My opinion is we only need the London Riots article here, it's them that's gaining notability because they're so widespread. Perhaps they could be merged then, like the Cumbria shootings and Derrick Bird were. --5 albert square (talk) 22:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Keep I hold that the riots themselves warrant inclusion, similarly to the article on Rodney King, who would not have been notable without the riots that followed his death abuse. Tomeasy T C 21:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What does this imply? Does it make him more notable? The only difference I see is that the LA riots are probably more notable? Duggan dead, King alive is not really an argument either way (in- or exclusion). Tomeasy T C 21:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Was I the first one who tried an article on this person? Have there already been AfD discussions on this? Tomeasy T C 20:55, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Please not the dab page Mark Duggan which probably receives quite some hits at the moment. Does it make sense to have an individual listed on a dab page but not wanting an article? That's how I came by it. Tomeasy T C 21:04, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK that is an argument which makes sense. Are we not to have articles on persons who are just known for one event? What if this one event is truly noteworthy?
I expect there will be a large amount of interest from our readers in the personal details of this individual. Tomeasy T C 21:24, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note that a redirect is probably not worthwhile - Mark Duggan is a dab page linking to the riot article and this has the title of "Tottenham riots". violet/riga [talk] 21:28, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As for disambiguation, all we need is a hat note at the top of the article about the footballer, saying something like, "For the taxi driver Mark Duggan whose death triggered violence, see 2011 London riots. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 21:38, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is certainly appropriate, in my opinion, to have an article on the worst riots in London in decades. It is appropriate to have a section in that article about the shooting that triggered the riots. That section should include a few sentences on the man who was killed. But our policies discourage separate biographical articles about otherwise non-notable people who get a brief flurry of press attention only because they were caught up in a notable event such as this shooting and the riots that followed. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 21:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I could live with this reasoning and decision. However, do you not think that many readers will look for personal information on this individual? If Mark Duggan gets many hits, would that not be reason to have such an article? Tomeasy T C 21:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We are here to build an encyclopedia with article on topics of enduring notability, rather than to satisfy short term curiosity. Wikipedia is not a tabloid newspaper - there are plenty of them around, even if a well-known one closed down recently. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 21:41, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So, we are here to build an encyclopedia? Did not know that. Thanks for the reminder. Nevertheless, I think that one can very well agree on the purpose of this project, while still having different positions on the inclusion of a certain topic. Tomeasy T C 21:52, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We can come to an agreement, or we can agree to disagree. I am not saying your opinion has no validity, but rather that I believe my opinion in this matter has a better basis in established policy and guidelines for this project than yours. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 21:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You may certainly believe that, but argument from authority isn't terribly convincing. Let's get back to the issue itself; it is whether this man, since he is notable only for one incident, is sufficiently notable to have a page. The policy on people notable for only one event does not indicate that all such articles should be deleted, it says it is "unclear", and gives the example of someone who is a small player in a large event, or a large player in a small event. Duggan is neither - he is the most-often cited cause of a large event. Whether he is actually the logical cause is not relevant; his death is famously cited as the cause.

We do not have crystal balls, but this event is the direct cause, but a separate event, from the 2011 England riots. As such, there is already independent notability established, for example the preliminary (and controversial) investigation on the part of the Independent Police Complaints Commission. All evidence points to this event being notable in itself, in particular, the long-term resolution of the investigation into this death will be a notable event, which will affect the views on the other notable event, the riots. If we are wrong, we can then in the future merge it into the riots, but based on the current evidence, not crystal ball predictions, I highly doubt this event is not notable enough for its own article.--Cerejota (talk) 19:38, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Definite delete. Person is not notable for anything other than being a drug dealer shot by police, hardly worthy of an encyclopedia article and even if there was some minor justification for it, it would be moved in the main riot article. --TBM10 (talk) 21:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I came to Wikipedia looking up his name rather than a nomenclature for the London/Tottenham riots that would be unguessable. It is also likely that there will be an enquiry (or two or three, knowing how these things play out) into his shooting, and that will all need somewhere to go. As further details emerge, it would be useful to have a place to put them. DavidFarmbrough (talk) 22:20, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
David - that is not necessary as his name will become a redirect if his article is deleted. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:04, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So.. basically, he isn't notable at this point and the article should be deleted? Cheers. Nevard (talk) 07:11, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per DavidFarmbrough's argument Ruby2010 comment! 22:35, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. We may very well come to a time when the subject of this article is more notable, and warrants a separate article (as is the case with Rodney King and Rodney King Riots -- you'll notice that second link is a redirect, a great little tool that I'm sure will be implemented if this article is deleted, which I hope will help alleviate the concerns of the person above who searched for the man not the riot.) As it is, everything in this article can fit just fine into the article on the riot. The mere possibility of there being more to add later does not seem like a valid reason to keep it now. Bobnorwal (talk) 22:45, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Please note that as the article currently stands the only information it includes that is not already adeptly covered by the main article is about his wife and kids. I'm tempted to delete it based on BLP.

violet/riga [talk] 22:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You do know what the L in BLP stands for? Joepnl (talk) 01:34, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This template must be substituted. WWGB (talk) 00:49, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, he is not notable, any more than any of the other "333 people who died in British police custody", according to the 2011 London riots, are notable. Being a putative (and dubious) victim does not make anyone notable, per se. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:04, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep under current title Death of Mark Duggan -- The legal fallout will almost certainly drag on for many years in various forms (as with many other comparable British incidents), with much media coverage along the way. Much more information will be released on the incident, beginning with certain forensic results promised within hours, so it seems pointless to delete the article right at this moment. The "2011 London riots" article is not the place to cover the details of Duggan's death (which happened several days before the riots began). AnonMoos (talk) 02:12, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment When this debate began, the article in question was a biography of the man who was killed. I recommended deleting it then. In only a few hours, it has been renamed several times, and is now evolving into an article about the circumstances of his death and the controversy about it. In other words, the article we were debating at the beginning has been fundamentally changed into something else. The two articles mentioned by AnonMoos above represent the direction this article should head if it is to be kept. It shouldn't be a WP:BIO1E - those two articles aren't. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect or Delete. Redirect to the riots article. If not, delete. Duggan was a non-notable person who got killed, so his chances of rising beyond WP:ONEEVENT are nil. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:39, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • To quote WP:ONEEVENT : "If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate." The event (major riots that have spread to at least two other cities) is significant. The subject (shooting of man by police is generally agreed to have sparked said riots) is a large role within the event. Therefore, this article should be kept. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 03:49, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for quoting something I didn't need quoted. I've read ONEEVENT, I don't agree with your interpretation. It even goes on to point out how individuals involved in an event often become a redirect to the article about the event, which is exactly what I'm saying to do. I don't see where this drug dealing gang member was notable on his own. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:29, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong. Duggan's death WAS NOT "causation for the 2011 London riots"; the peaceful protest regarding his shooting was hijacked by the thugs and rioters as an excuse to loot and destroy property. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:16, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Compare Blair Peach. Biscuittin (talk) 08:24, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Per User Biscuittin. Adrian (talk) 08:40, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep His death is a watershed incident in UK history. And surely more information regarding the circumstances of his death will emerge as time passes by. Astronomyinertia (talk) 09:31, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, the article is still WP:BLP1E by another name. Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:46, 9 August 2011 (UTC).[reply]
  • Definite delete Duggan's unfortunate death would probably have resulted in hardly a mention on Wikipedia had it not been for the subsequent riots. The contents of this article should be merged into 2011 London riots, with a redirect to that article. Davshul (talk) 10:13, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep WP:BLP1E states that "If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate.". In fact after reading this policy it seems to me this article is entirely appropriate given the huge magnitude of the event, and the apparently (at the moment) major role this person has played in said event. For example, Howard Brennan was not one of the central characters in that major event and is not notable for anything else, but he has a separate article and is cited in WP:BLP1E. C 1 (talk) 10:23, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep' WP:BLP1E allows articles on people notable for only one event if the event is very important and the person had a large role in it, and says that the indicator of importance is how persistent coverage of the event is in reliable sources. The riots resulting from his death are an important event and given the riots and the various investigations into the shooting there is likely to be lots of coverage for some time. Since BLP1E arguably doesn't apply anyway (the subject is dead) and since the article is about the person's death rather than the person I think the existence of this page as a seperate article can be justified. Hut 8.5 10:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep' His death is a significant incident in UK history. 20040302 (talk) 11:33, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. There is clearly a need for a seperate page to deal with this man's death and the circumstances around it, as well as adding on more information, as new details come to light. And especially if it is proven that he was murdered in cold blood. The even is significant enough in itself. We should not forget why we should be angry and even though I do not agree with rioting and burning buildings, they display how all of us feel. Milka5000 12:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.60.98.133 (talk) [reply]
  • Merge' to 2011 London riots. There is nothing that is keepable in this article for it to have its own article here, all of written there can be merged into that proposed merge article. Donnie Park (talk) 11:51, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect and merge Redirect it to the section in the 2011 London riots page [1], move some of the materials from here to there. Recreate the page in the future if more solid information come out.Zlqq2144 (Talk Contribs) 11:59, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm British and a long term Canadian. In three days our news vehicles(CTV and CBC) have not reported anything to do with the reasons for rioting except that the police shot someone. I looked up the images of rioting on Flickr.com, and found the victims' name. Searching the name Mark Duggan led to BBC news online and subsequently to the reason that Mark Duggan was shot, news of police misapprehension, and also to a humanizing description of the family relationships for the deceased (although the still born child is certainly family business and not ours). I agree with Tomeasy, that these aspects of societal malaise have fulminated into an event with the potential to become historic. In Criminology studies, researchers would look for stats on the reasons for violent rioters actions, and go for any aspect that suggests the exploitation of the victims' dilemma or of peaceful protest. News circuits do not express the idea that Duggan was a drug dealer, nor that he was a College student. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.44.180 (talk) 12:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This template must be substituted. WWGB (talk) 12:54, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Redirect and merge to 2011 London riots as thoroughly non-notable small time criminal. If he gets a page anyone killed by the police under any circumstances will merit their own page Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:04, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for now - revisit this question in six months when we have the perspective of time. There is no urgency to remove the article for now. There is notability here, the article is referenced, there is no need to remove it. When things have settled down a little, we'll know better whether this persons' death is truly worthy of a separate article or whether this was merely a footnote to a greater whole. When the rioting is over and some serious investigation into his death has been undertaken, we may decide whether there is continuing notability. SteveBaker (talk) 13:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge and redirect to 2011 London riots. Non notable alledged criminal and drug addict who shot by police. WP:BLP1E and WP:CRIME. Notability is not inherited from the riots. If a catalyst for the riots, then should be mentioned in that article. Does not have independent notability for his own article.--v/r - TP 13:23, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge and redirect to 2011 London riots. Louis Wu (talk) 13:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. As per TP, Anything relevent about the death can go in the 2011 London riots - the looting and riots have little to do with his Duggan anyway, I doubt many of them can even name him. He's just a dead criminal, and thus as a stand alone he is non-notable. The idea that in a few months he may still be spoken about is in violation of WP:Crystal. BulbaThor (talk) 14:52, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. As stated above, his only notability is re: the riots, and any information about him can go in the main article.--Chimino (talk) 14:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Please note that WP:BLP1E alone does not yet settle whether a separate article should exist about a person notable for one event -- the relevant criterion is significance of the event and significance of the person in question for the event. I argue that a) the event is obviously significant, and b) (the death of) Mark Duggan, at least according to our current knowledge, appears to be a major factor in causing/igniting the event; therefore keeping a separate article is justified.
Also note the similarity to Mohamed Bouazizi and his role in the Arab Spring -- like Mark Duggan he is notable only because of one event, his self-immolation, but his significance for the event and the overall significance of the event justified maintaining a separate article. Minvogt (talk) 15:05, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no similarity between Bouazizi and Duggan. Bouazizi died by his own hand in self-sacrifice; he was not a drug dealing, lowlife thug. To compare them is sickening. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 16:20, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You kind of miss the point: IMO they are (or appear to be) similar in their significance for an important event, i.e. they were the catalyst for something big that happened after their death. Perhaps I could have phrased it better, but I'm not sure if that would have made a difference for you, as you seem to have pretty strong opinions about this issue anyway ("...drug dealing, lowlife thug."). Minvogt (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. The IPCC has confirmed that there is no evidence that Duggan shot at the police. The death of Mark Duggan is a story that's going to run. ARK (talk) 17:38, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The above user has precisely two edits, both of which are demanding a merger of this article. I like to WP:AGF so I'm wondering if that user has perhaps forgetfully commented again on this AFD after accidentally logging out of their regular account? ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 20:01, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for now - for the time being, it seems easier to me to deal with the matters relating to this death in a separate article. It doesn't harm anyone or violate any of our policies, and it takes pressure off the main article. The long-term notability of Mark Duggan can be re-assessed after the riots have stopped and the story seems to have finished; if there turns out to be little more to say about him, I wouldn't object to a merge then. Robofish (talk) 00:04, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect and Merge into a section on the 2011 British Riots -that way people searching only his name will find the article on the rioting. The individual himself is not noteworthy as a petty criminal that drew-down on the police and lost -something that occurs daily. GenQuest (talk) 00:35, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I want to make clear that this is not a WP:CRYSTAL rationale, because it would hold true even if the rioting stops right now. The riots article is of a quite significant size already, is likely to grow unless all disorder stops now, and I would expect the aftermath to eventually add another 20-30% to its size. Furthermore, if this is merged into the riots article, I would expect the section on Duggan's death to grow dramatically as the facts of the case are unearthed. I'm on the fence as to whether the event itself was notable, but in practise this is a logical split to what is unquestionably going to become a very large article. —WFC— TFL notices 01:15, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely correct. WP:CRYSTAL applies to the tone of the article itself. We, as (hopefully) rational-minded, logical human beings can look at the riots and say "Yeah, this is fucking huge news and will be remembered and written about for quite some time and when the causes are brought up, Duggan's death will be mentioned". That isn't "a violation of WP:CRYSTAL", that's us making a reasonable prediction based on available evidence. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 01:36, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. —BabbaQ (talk) 10:04, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The volume of interest in this AfD alone proves that there is notability to this person,not only the event that followed this persons death.--BabbaQ (talk) 10:08, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, no it doesn't prove that at all. It just shows that a lot of people feel very passionately about the issue for some reason. Your Lord and Master (talk) 12:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article contains a substantial risk of serious prejudice in the event of any criminial case arising in connection with the death of Mark Duggan and should be deleted in its entirity — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.50.180.68 (talk) 13:14, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Completely untrue as long as WP:NPOV is adhered to. Please remember that Wikipedia is not censored. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 13:41, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Editor ARK in their comment above says: "This killing brings to the fore the long-running issue of alleged racism in the British police forces..." This is the first suggestion I have seen that Duggan was of a different race than the police who shot him. This puts a "different perspective" on the ensuing riots. Is there some hesitation to raise the point in 2011 England riots and in Death of Mark Duggan? Wanderer57 (talk) 13:17, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, because no reliable media has raised race as an issue. WWGB (talk) 13:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
"Community organizers, neighborhood residents and members of Parliament who represent the districts, including several who, like Mr. Duggan, were of Afro-Caribbean descent, have said, overwhelmingly, that his death, while providing the original trigger for the violence, has had little or nothing to do with the looting and arson." from today's New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/world/europe/11britain.html?smid=fb-nytimes&pagewanted=all (I'm just leaving this here as I don't have time to work on the articles.) Wanderer57 (talk) 14:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP under current title of Death of Mark Duggan - it is a notable event and it is in the public interest to keep it. Also, WP:STEAM --AndrewTindall (talk) 15:31, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Reginald Denny does have an article: Reginald_Denny incident. AdamSommerton (talk) 15:55, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or merge into 2011 England riots. I'm not so much opposed to it being merged into the larger article, but I wouldn't like it to just be redirected without the content being transferred as well. Mnmazur (talk)
  • KEEP - there are many arguments above that Duggan was not a worthy individual. That's really not the point. His death is controversial, and will lead to high-level public enquiries; particularly because it is the most-cited cause of the London Riots, but also because it was an organised public shooting by police of an unarmed man in a first-world country. There will be a lot of further coverage of his death and the subsequent enquiries. It is already known across the world, and is likely to be the subject of further front-page news stories and detailed investigative articles. To merge it into an already complicated article on the riots that his death sparked would make it harder to keep the facts of this notable incident in order.~~
  • Keep - this is an important and ongoing issue. If it's to be deleted, that discussion should take place after the dust has settled. Foobard (talk) 18:19, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. The proposed deletion seems to fit under WP:IDONTLIKEIT, but also because the topic is inherently notable (based on the number of references and the scale of the topic). 2.124.42.95 (talk) 18:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - as the direct cause of the 2011 England riots, but completely separate - as an event - from them, this article more that satisfies WP:GNG, and there is no reason for it to not exist. People need to kneejerk a little less, and read sources a little more. --Cerejota (talk) 19:31, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - If this article can be kept then so can this article. NorthernThunder (talk) 22:53, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The death of Mark Duggan, while being the initial spark that started the riots (and thus notable), should not be simply redirected to the 2011 England riots article. For one thing, one unfortunate killing of a civilian by a police force is hardly a precedence for widespread destruction (which isn't even particularly targeted at the police). As such, while this person's unfortunate death certainly deserves to be mentioned in the main riots article, it shouldn't go into excessive detail as not all of the information relating to Mark Duggan's death is relevant to that article. Rather, Mark Duggan's death is a separate event, which gets most of its notability from a subsequent event, but is notable nonetheless, and separating the two events across two articles is both the cleanest and the most informative way to put these recent events into article format. 81.82.98.2 (talk) 23:10, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's an excellent point. For example, Duggan's inquest will be important to the article about his death but totally irrelevant to the article about the riots. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹Speak 23:59, 10 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. The person was the initial point and still remains pivotal to the whole protests and riots. Other articles with similar situation have dedicated pages for characters/victims eg. Jeffrey Miller, so should this one. Deleting this will not help understanding the main article and a merge will only make an already big article bigger. --182.185.50.106 (talk) 00:14, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for God's sake. This is a dumb debate and was probably started by someone upset with the events over the past few days. END THIS. 98.223.65.209 (talk) 01:26, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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