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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sylvia Blossom (talk | contribs) at 21:45, 4 June 2013 (→‎Hip Hop Films: Edited my last paragraph in regards to CIA funding Crips & Bloods plus posted article link.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good article nomineeHip hop (culture) was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 25, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
April 16, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
Current status: Former good article nominee

Biased Phrasing

"Hip hop has mirrored the worst aspects of the mainstream (American) culture that it emerged from: materialism, sexism, an internalized racism, violence, vandalism and antipathy towards intellectualism."

It definitely worth pointing out these drawbacks; talking about hip hop without talking about materialism, violence, excess would be impossible. But the bias comes in when it's implied, without evidence, that these issues are merely reflections of "mainstream" American society. It seems to me that the thug life of Tupac Shakur is demonstrably NOT mainstream. Hip hop is in part about escapism, which is by definition not mainstream. Agh.niyya (talk) 14:07, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Duplications

The following paragraph has repeated twice in the article:

Though born in the United States, the reach of hip hop is global. Youth culture and opinion is meted out in both Israeli hip hop and Palestinian hip hop, while France, Germany, the U.K., Evan Mathews pants A.K.A. Africa (cause of his giant dick) and the Caribbean have long-established hip hop followings. According to the U.S. Department of State, hip hop is "now the center of a mega music and fashion industry around the world", that crosses social barriers and cuts across racial lines.[35] National Geographic recognizes hip hop as "the world's favorite youth culture" in which "just about every country on the planet seems to have developed its own local rap scene."[36] 79.74.128.62 (talk) 21:11, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from article

(to the editors)- i saw that you have erased my addition to this article. i am a Bboy from Jerusalem and to me hiphop is my whole life and i made it as such because i believe that through hiphop i will be able to bring positive change to the world. you cannot have an article about the hip hop culture without one word on it's values, it's goals, the mindset of those who practice the hiphop arts, and especially you cannot have a whole article about hiphop without one word about the CYPHERS. without cyphers there is no hiphop. so if my addition was not acedemic enough for this website, than please ask a more well known B-boy (Crumbs, Remind, Ken Swift, Crazy Legs, Born, Machine, ATA, anyone who you deem to be famous enough so that they can enter a quote here) because the B-boys nowadays are the ones who continue to live real hiphop and all that is written here has been written by people who are not a part of the culture. this is clear because there doesn't appear even one word as to what hip hop REALLY is and what it STANDS FOR.

Peace

Bboy Rethink, TRuClaN, Jerusalem

{Originally posted by 213.8.6.227 in article, moved by Apparition11|Complaints/Mistakes 20:07, 23 December 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Merger

I highly recommend that the article at Hip hop music be used as the basis for the new article, not the one currently located here. Since Hip Hop is mainly about the music, the music article should be the base. Zazaban (talk) 01:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I highly recommend the opposite; the hip hop music article has only 20 references while the hip hop article has 3 times as many. Hip hop music should be simply redirected.Cosprings (talk) 00:23, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the setup for the other article is much better. This article is basically not about a musical genre, but the subculture that surrounds a musical genre. If we keep this version will will have no article about the musical genre, but one about the subculture that surrounds it. That's extremely odd. Zazaban (talk) 05:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And that is the reason why the best solution is to have "Hip Hop" as a disambiguation page pointing to the various related articles, and one article title "Hip Hop (music)" and one titled "Hip Hop (culture)." Let's be clear--Hip Hop is a mess--an opinion-pushing one at that--number of citations notwithstanding (don't blame the messenger). One of many reasons that it is a mess, respectfully, is because when editors who believe (in good faith) that "there should only be one hip hop article" choose to delete or redirect hip hop-related articles, they find that there is a need to merge the relevant info from the page that they deleted. This balloons the article in size, and shows only one of the reasons that the article should be broken up, per WP:SPLIT. This is no more unusual than featured article Punk rock having split into Punk subculture and Punk ideologies, among others. -RoBoTamice 16:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, you've said all this before and I disagreed strongly with you then as I do now. First of all, don't do it just because that's the way punk did it. Second, No one wants to put "hip hop" into wikipedia and get directed to a disambiguation page, most newbies won't even understand what that is. They want to instantly be directed to an all-encompassing summary of the genre/culture. There should only be one article on hip hop, and not even a hip hop music article, because there already roots of hip hop, old school, new school and golden age articles. That's not one article, that's 4 historical periods plus the main article. The main article as it is is very well sourced, though a refimprove tag would definitely improve things. I am sure most people would agree with what I've just said.Cosprings (talk) 16:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My friend, the problem is that they didn't/don't agree with everything you just said. The "no ones" that you speak ofhave reached consensus several times on exactly the opposite tack. Your opinion on disambiguation pages is respected, but may reflect a misunderstanding of wikipolicy at Wikipedia:Disambiguation. There is no argument that the word "Hip Hop" reflects both a style of music and a subculture. However, the ongoing argument, of which your opinion is a part, centers on whether the music or culture is the primary topic (as you and Zazaban have engaged in above). Luckily for us, Wikipolicy addresses this situation at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC:

"If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".

Thoughts? -RoBoTamice 16:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion is not about which is primary, but whether or not hip hop music should exist at all. So that excerpt is not relevant. You want a disamg for only two articles? Just merge them and all efforts will be centralized, not defracted as would happen with two articles that basically cover the same things.Cosprings (talk) 16:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You certainly have a right to your opinion concerning relevance, as well as your opinion of what "no one" wants to read. Like some, you may feel that hip hop music and culture are "basically" the same thing, but others have a different take, and there is a logical argument to back that premise up. While you, among others, argue that they "cover the same things," the relevant material that is cut and pasted when the articles are joined balloon the article to the point that Wikipedia:SPLIT becomes relevant. Since you were "present" at the prior discussion, you already know that the purpose of a disambig page would be to centralize, not defract the the hip hop topics, to include music, culture, fashion, etc. Regarding your comments about the Punk Rock page...well, while I certainly appreciate the sentiment of "don't do it just because that's the way punk did it," Punk Rock is a Featured Article, while Hip Hop was a Featured Article, so maybe there is something that can be gleaned from that article after all. -RoBoTamice 20:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hip hop music was a featured article in January 2005 when it featured ZERO citations, only a list of a references. As it is now, hip hop is much better.Cosprings (talk) 23:26, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As stated before, your opinion is respected. -RoBoTamice 02:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why are we even arguing? Hip hop is the term used for a genre of music. It is also the word for the culture consisting of four elements (djing, mcing, bboying, and graffitti). Just make a disambiguation page. It is illogical to have one article for two seperate things.76.105.7.183 (talk) 06:09, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. -RoBoTamice 13:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, I don't trust IP addresses. This anonymous user should not be considered for voting. In any event, "hip hop genre" and the "rest" of hip hop are not the two different things, they are exactly the same thing. Cosprings (talk) 15:19, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you have reason to believe they are a sock, I suppose you could spark an investigation, although you should probably assume good faith, especially since they have a clear history of editing hip hop articles with no complaints or warnings (This isn't a vote, by the way). Again, your opinion is respected, even if it is disagreed with (or not in the majority, for that matter. -RoBoTamice 19:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robotam, if you respect my opinion, how can you disagree so steadfastly? And how can you facetiously assert that my opinion is "not in the majority"? How can you believe that anyone who types in "hip hop" into wk wants to a see a disambiguation page? How can you believe that hip hop music and hip hop culture are separate things? Do you ever hear about people who are hip hop music fans but not hip hop culture fans? It is absolutely absurd. They are exactly the same thing.Cosprings (talk) 19:25, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(1) Because, talk radio culture notwithstanding, editors can actually disagree, yet have the decency to respect the opinion of those on the other side of a discussion. (2) Not facetious at all. I would direct you to previous discussions you were involved in on the topic of a disambig page, where you were in the minority. Hey, it happens. (3) not trying to be "facetious" but...because, as above, they said so? (4) In the same way that I believe that New York City and New York State are seperate things. One being an element of the other does not make them the same. (3) All the time. Just like there were/are B-Boy dancers that don't like rap. The culture is based around the music, but is not solely comprised of the music, and that is why, in my opinion, your point of view is found wanting. -RoBoTamice 21:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"...Just like there were/are B-boy dancers that don't like rap..." And graffiti artists that don't like either. When we frame it like this it's merely anecdotal, but fact nonetheless. B-boy dancing and graffiti both predated rap and the hip-hop moniker, and this concept of a hip-hop culture was largely and solely invented by Afrika Bambatta (his motives are another topic altogether). Dancing and street art are so universal that for any one culture to appropriate either is inane at best and intellectually damaging at worst. I came to this page thinking about writing an addition about this very topic; "culture" is not a concrete thing and clearly not something that can be created or even observed in the present, it's a thing that historians look back on and deduce and even then it's an abstract science. In many (if not all?) wiki pages about various "cultures" both broad and specific there is information about what insiders believe defines the culture, what outside observers believe defines the culture, and the level of difficulty in anybody clearly defining the culture. (Consider the task of attempting to define what precisely "American culture" is, or the task of explaining the difference between a Tutsi and a Hutu, or the task of explaining what a "wigger" is: "A wigger is a white person that adopts black culture." "Ok, what parts of black culture?" "The person wears baggy clothes." "So wearing baggy clothes is part of black culture?" "Um.. Ok, the person listens to rap music." "Likwise, listening to rap music is a defining characteristic of black culture?" "Um... I think i'm in over my head.") I found it odd that the "hip-hop culture" page didn't address any of this and instead stated things so empirically and concretely. I'm a noob when it comes to actually editing and contributing to wikipedia so I figured I'd just post a response hear and see if I get any feedback. ----SoA (no account)

Capital H

It's spelled Hip Hop (We (Hip Hoppers) have been capitalizing the two words for years), this probably has something to do with the fact that they aren't just a couple of words they have a certain meaning (Hip = modern/relevant and Hop = movement) and placing the same emphasis on both words. Making it "Hip hop" would place more emphasis on relevance (modernness) and less on the movement itself so I'm pro capitalized "H"s. if you wanna suck a DONG!

Um...

What's with the lack of information regarding the millions of inner-city deaths that were the result of gang violence encouraged by this awful music?

Because there are no reliable sources backing up your claims? --Whip it! Now whip it good! 06:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think you have this confused with Gangsta Rap, and even then gangsta rap was about being real and telling the people about the streets, millions die due to their ignorance (gangs, drugs, money etc.) and even though it may seem like it, gangsta rap only put the worlds eyes into their world, no one died BECAUSE of gansta rap, dumb people died because of ignorance or just plain stupidity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.34.188.60 (talk) 05:32, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You mean gangsta rap not hip hop, hip hop is the old school stuff like Public Enemy, gangsta rap like Eazy-E and Eminem are more associated with violence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalfan72 (talk • contribs) 00:07, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Two articles

This and hip hop music need to be merged at some point. Most of the other article could be incorporated in the history section this one, maybe leading to a new History of hip hop article.Zazaban (talk) 00:04, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as the hip hop music article (as it stands right now) is basically already a History of hip hop article, then I agree with this. The history parts of hip hop music and hip hop could be made into History of hip hop and the few remaining bits of hip hop music could be merged into here. Ideally, eventually, there should be separate hip hop and hip hop music articles, but it's a big mess at the moment, so merging would be the best way to start sorting it out. Crateescape101 (talk) 22:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The best move right now would probably be just move hip hop music to History of hip hop, since that's basically what it is, and add non-history stuff (which, as far as I can tell, is nothing) to this article, and other such stuff, afterwards. Some of he stuff here could go there, for example.Zazaban (talk) 23:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. Crateescape101 (talk) 00:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Latino Americans

Ok, now this article is getting stupid. Latinos, or any other ethnicity that made contributions later does not constitute the "creation" of Hip hop. THe people that started the art form, and created it where Black African Americans, with Jamaican influences. No one is denying the contributions of other people, but I can clearly see the agenda of the people working on this article.

So I guess now your going to add Europeans to the list of people who created Hip hop because Eminem is a popular rapper now?


Here is a vid from the 40s of AFrican Americans breakdancing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zu0dmom4og

Somebody please come fix this article. If this article continues along these lines I am going to start a petition directed to wiki for its obvious racist undertones in any AFrican American articles.


—Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 17:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The involvement of Latino Americans in creating hip-hop is stated very clearly in the 2009 book "Foundation: B-boys, B-girls, And Hip-Hop Culture In New York" by Schloss, Joseph on Oxford University Press. It talks about the b-boy element of hip-hop and says -

"the early development of the dance took place among small groups of working class black and Latino teenagers... the dance developed in the context of an urban Latino environment... there were three basic stages to the development of the dance: the early rock dance of the '60s, which was Latino and citywide; Brooklyn rocking or uprocking, which was Latino and Brooklyn-based, and b-boying which is black and Latino and Bronx-based". Crateescape101 (talk) 23:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


In the documentary " The freshest Kids", The first latino b boy group called " The latin kings" state that hip hop, and breakdancing started out as an African American style then as it became less underground more people took to it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQAK0wbcwZc&feature=channel) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 03:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


An interview with "Crazy Legs" states himself how the latinos started breaking AFTER African Americans did. No one is denying their influence, but even one of the greatest bboys states this himself. "Davey D:I had a conversation with Kool Herc and he said there were some very distinct ways in which African Americans and Puerto Ricans approached b-boying. Could you shed some light on that?

Crazy Legs: I think the difference is when the brothas first started doing and it was at its infancy they weren't doing acrobatic moves. That didn't come into play until more Puerto Ricans got involved in the mid 70s. We then took the dance, evolved it and kept it alive. In '79 I was getting dissed. I would go into a dance and I would get dissed by a lot of brothas who would ask 'Why y'all still doing that dance? ThatÕs played out'. By 79, there were very few African American brothas that was doing thisÉ I one say one other thing. We always maintained the flava. It was like a changing of the guard and all we did was add more flava to something that already existed. We use to refer to it as Moreno style or Cocola style. That was just the slang back then. There were certain Top Rocks called Latin Rock"(http://www.daveyd.com/crazylegsinterview.html) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 04:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The book Foundation interviews many of the original b-boys, and it also includes quotes and info from "The Freshest Kids" documentary - using all the information, the author comes to the conclusion that Latinos were instrumental in creating breaking and hip-hop. Crateescape101 (talk) 13:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


That is only 1 book. No one is denying their influences, but the people who started it first were black Americans. Even the first Latino break dancers say this. If this wiki is supposed to put things in order than put the original founders seperate from everyone else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This 1 book quotes and references the people and documentaries you are talking about. The Freshest Kids is just 1 documentary, and Crazy Legs is only 1 b-boy. The book looks at all the evidence out there currently and has a section on the history. It is also the most current and most complete research into it. Crateescape101 (talk) 16:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


So this book overlooks the first black Djs who created the craft, and over looks the first b boys who created the craft first? Because of the first people who started , and created it were black, and its obvious the latinos joined after the culture wasn't underground anymore, why are they being put as creators of the culture? They participated, and evolved breakdancing YES, but started the culture? No. And if you watch that documentary, ALL of the original Latino crew state this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first founding people of the Music, and the art of b boying were black people. Latino contribution came later, and no one is belittling or denying it. But to say they are the creators of the music, b boying is an insult to myself, and black people. The first latino b boys called it " That moreno style" for a reason. If you look at all past documentaries, all of them clearly stated it was created, and started by black people. I'm not sure if this article needs to be reworded or have someone else organize, and write it, but the founding creators "black people" needs to be stated first.

Darkman1984 (talk) 17:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen the documentaries, and so has the author of that book - as I previously mentioned it quotes from numerous sources, including the Freshest Kids documentary.
You have cherry picked a couple of quotes from a small number of b-boys, but the book takes into account all the interviews and all the information. The rest of your argument is in your own words - wikipedia goes off verifiable citations.
I have given the citation that I used, which clearly contradicts what you are saying, and it takes into account the things you are quoting. Crateescape101 (talk) 19:03, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Darkman, you can't just put anything you want into the article, especially when it contradicts the citations. It's called original research. Zazaban (talk) 20:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now evidence of the dance forms are comming out and being posted on youtube. The lies on this page , and the obvious racist aims are becoming blatant. Black people have been doing these dance moves since the 40s. I posted the youtube link above, and there are many more sources along with that.

No one is denying other people contributions AFTER the creation. But the creation was from black people. Stop trying to add things into it. Fix this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 09:35, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Now evidence of the dance forms are comming out and being posted on youtube. The lies on this page , and the obvious racist aims are becoming blatant. Black people have been doing these dance moves since the 40s. I posted the youtube link above, and there are many more sources along with that." first off, Racist?plz stop that, this isnt racist. Secondly, look up rocking, uropcking, and toprocking, look up salsa, merengue, bachata and cumbia rhythms(you can bboy to those beats, well alot of them). Lastly look up the actual book hes talking about. Latinos were fundamental in creating Hip Hop, and bboying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.34.188.60 (talk) 05:42, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok since nobody can agree wether latinos helped create hip hop or not, then can there please ATLEST be sections for the Latino contributions, firsts, and later influence on every section?if not the just one big section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.108.210.90 (talk) 06:59, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Part of the issue here may be a clear misunderstanding of the demographics of the Bronx, particularly the relationship between African-American and Hispanic culture within the Bronx. Besides the fact that from the 60's forward, Hispanics have outnumbered African Americans in the Bronx, the evidence is clear, and cited, that both Hispanics and African Americans were present and instrumental at Hip hop's inception, and that Hip hop borrowed from not only Jamaican roots culture, but salsa & merengue as well. "Black people have been doing these dance moves since the 40's" is a logical fallacy, as (1) said dancers were not involved in Hip hop culture, and (2) Cubans, Puerto Ricans Asians and Russians were also doing dance moves that Hip hop borrowed from, in the 1940s and before. The ad hominem (and disengenious) cries of "racist," in the absence of such, are not helpful, unless one's goal is to not be taken seriously. There's enough stuff out here that is actually racist, without defining it as: "Someone I disagree with," or "someone with whom I may not get my way, even though I've likely been proven wrong." -RoBoTamice 18:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Latinos joined after the culture wasn't underground anymore" is simply a false statement. "DJ Disco Wiz" was active shortly after Herc, and is credited with creating Hip Hop's first mixed dub recording in 1977. Many MCs and DJs such as Prince Whipper Whip were simply assumed to be African American, in the same way Teena Marie was assumed to be non-white when she first recorded. -96.255.122.45 (talk) 03:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, first of all, some of you act like Latinos are a race. It is not considering the black population in Cuba, the indigenous population in Mexico and the white population in Argentina. Second, Hispanic means "of or pertaining to Spain." Hispanic people are people from the European nation of Spain, people that are inhabitants of the European nation of Spain, or people of Spanish descent ie. white people. Third, none of you have any proof that hip-hop dance borrowed from salsa and merengue (I bet none of you would admit salsa and merengue has African influences) because it's FALSE. Poplocking and other supposed hip-hop dances are NOT descended from or associated with any other group except black Americans. Did so-called "Latinos" made an impact on hip-hop? Yes. However, saying so-called "Latinos" contributed to its initial creation is false. Hip-hop was a black American creation with the help of a black Jamaican named Kool Herc. B-Machine (talk) 14:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Hispanic is also used by people in the United States who are of Hispanic American origin (Hispanic and Latino Americans). Cultural elements (Spanish names, the Spanish language, Spanish customs, etc.) and people known as Hispanic can also be found in other areas that were formerly part of the Spanish Empire, such as in Equatorial Guinea in Africa, or in the Spanish East Indies." -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

"In other words, there were three basic stages to the development of the dance: the early rock dance of the '60s, which was Latino and citywide; Brooklyn rocking or uprocking which was Latino and Brooklyn-based; and b-boying, which is Black and Latino and Bronx-based. Within this basic framework, it is not difficult to see how three constituencies-Brooklyn Latinos, Bronx Latinos, and African Americans-could have three totally different perspectives on the history. " -quoting Schloss http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_dance Respectfully still waiting on some verifiable, reliable cite to the contrary. -RoBoTamice 18:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Unbelievable. Like I said, if you're not from Spain or if you're not of Spanish descent, you're not Hispanic. Period. Do you hear people from Jamaica, the United States, and Barbados saying they're Anglo or British? No, unless one is of English descent. And there are a lot of people of indigenous descent like Mexicans of Aztec/Mayan descent who reject the Hispanic and Latino labels, rightfully so. Go to Youtube and type "not hispanic not latino" and you'll see for yourself.

As for your other paragraph, what exactly makes you think Schloss is correct? Early rock dance? Rock and roll music started in the 1930s and is a descendant of blues. There were plenty of rock dancing in those days. Despite what you think, nothing about that statement proves anything. I'll be back. B-Machine (talk) 14:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As a hip hop scholar, I find myself cringing at some of the comments here (there is no such dance as "poplocking"). Hip hop culture was clearly a result of the fusion of blacks and Latinos in the Bronx. In my opinion, Schloss gives a bit too much credit to Rocking as the origin of B-boying, but it is clear to everyone that rocking and mambo were two of the greatest influences on the dance itself. Both rocking and mambo were predominately done by Latinos, but a strong contingent of blacks also practiced these dances. Herc and other DJ's who used to spin in the park may not have done so as a direct result of the Mambo bands and drum circles that used to play in the park, but the music and dancing in open places was already a part of the culture in large part because of the Mambo bands. Those within the hip hop community credit Kool Herc's looping of breaks as the beginning of hip hop, and I'm fine with that. He came to the Bronx from Jamaica, and is of African descent. The article could say it originated by a single African American, and it would actually be less controversial. I agree, however, that it is more appropriate to ascribe hip hop's origin to a community. This community was made up of youth from both African and Latino descent. Of course, there were white and Asian innovators within the culture, but one cannot even talk about the creation of hip hop culture without mentioning the fusion of Latino and African-American communities. If there are any founders of hip hop reading this page, I would love to hear their thoughts about this. See "From Mambo to Hip Hop" by Henry Chalfant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyp4uakQfAY Schloss, Joseph G. Foundation: B-boys, B-girls and Hip-Hop Culture in New York. New York: Oxford University Press, 2009, particularly chapter 7. ~LG, Nov, 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ossum86 (talk • contribs) 08:03, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Beatboxing?

Now however important beatboxing is to hip hop, why is it one of the "pillars?" There are only 4 pillars, djing, mcing, breakdancing and graffiti. Its ridiculous that beatboxing is included in the list, especially with no citations, i think it should be deleted.

Killanator (talk)

Removed lines flagged with "citation needed"

I've removed the following lines, that have "citation needed" flag for 6 or more month and look like untrue:

  • The term "hip hop" also followed logically the previous African-American music culture of "Bebop".[citation needed]

--Appletangerine un (talk) 12:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

I removed the drivel about 'artistic commitments' and similar tripe from the lede. It is uncited, highly politicised, factually dubious, and was inserted seemingly randomly in the middle of a number of vandalism reverts, thus evading the normal detection process for weeding out gobbledygook of this sort. --86.177.180.159 (talk) 02:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rename article

I suggest that this article gets renamed "Hip hop culture". When people say "hip hop", they are normally talking about the music, not the culture. I suggest that when "hip hop" is searched, it should lead to the disambiguation page, which has links to both Hip hop culture and Hip hop music. Having this article, which is about hip hop culture, titled "Hip hop" alone is misleading as it would be to have the article about Punk subculture entitled simply "Punk". Matthew Fennell (talk) 23:22, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support..I think you should mention this at the Hip hop Wikiproject before any move happens though! they seem to have talk about it a bit..Buzzzsherman (talk) 23:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"'Support"' - I'd say go ahead and be bold. ClovisPt (talk) 23:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - when I first came to this article it took me some time to work out where the music was, this would help solve that problem.--SabreBD (talk) 06:43, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose - Hip-Hop music is a sub element of Hip-Hop culture... b-boying and graffiti came before the music. With Punk it's different because the music is the main thing and the culture is secondary, but in Hip-Hop it is the other way around, hence why Hip-Hop leads you to the page where all the elements can be found. Crateescape101 (talk) 09:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support and comment - B-boying and graffiti originated in inner-city urban culture, as did rapping and hip hop. Yonskii (talk) 23:58, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support I agree with your reasoning. // Gbern3 (talk) 07:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Suport"" While some may feel or be aware that "hip hop" is a reference to the culture, it needs to be explicit for those of us who don't understand that. Given that this article is for the international community (for those that can read English or have it translated anyway), it needs to be immediately apparent that this article is about the "culture" of hip hop SPECIFICALLY. It cannot be assumed that readers will know that. I personally found it confusing that there were two different articles, this one called "Hip Hop" and another called "Hip Hop Music". And I'm tired, reading with one eye closed, and skimming for key words, so it's easy to miss stuff.

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 18:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

MCing/rapping

Are MCing and rapping synonymous? Rapping is one way to be an MC, but toasting and generally chanting or yelling things into the mic to get the crowd going is MCing as well, having said that, writing elaborate verses to match a beat on a record isn't really MCing, is it? Dubstep, dancehall, jungle and dub are other examples of music styles that employ MCs, but they don't necessarily rap. Hip-hop has its roots in soundsystem culture as much as any type of underground UK dance music does and this is where the MC in hip-hop stems from as well (though rapping has different cultural origins). Sadly, many figures in hip-hop (especially rappers) have no clue what soundsystem culture is about, but I still believe it's important to make the distinction between MCing and rapping. They're not the same, outside and even within a hip-hop context. As the old saying goes, "A good MC knows when to shut up", this is something that doesn't apply to rapping.Seeofseaof (talk) 20:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For Gods sake - Samples

Hip Hop is ALL about samples. The article should at the very least have a section on Samples with the main famous samples eg Ohio Players The Funky Worm Eric Wright and 145th St Band (Eazy E's Father!) - NWA Express Your Self Kool and the Gang - Summer Madness Chic Good Times - Sugar Hill Gang Rapper's Delight OPP (naughty by nature) - ABC jackson 5 It Was a Good Day - by Ice Cube Isley Brothers Footsteps in the Dark Aerosmith - Walk this Way : Run DMC - Walk this Way

I could go on... Lets just stick to the good ones. For anybody who likes 'new' hip hop I suggest you listen to 99 problems by ICE T not Jay Z. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.79.119.164 (talk) 04:08, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Krumping

There is no mention of Krumping, I would consider it a hip-hop dance style? What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.4.69.182 (talk) 07:01, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Duplications

Uhhh... deet de de!!! hello, theres already one of these articles except BETTER. It's called "hip hop music. and the only diffrents about the 2 is that yours looks like it was typed by a ghetto-rat. No offense and some people do appreciate this article but you have to do a little snooping around before you strike, do you know what I mean. I'm suprised it hasent been deleted, but unfortunatley i dont have the power to do that at the moment. Make sure not to "duplicate" anymore articles or you will be blocked or possibly kicked off. MajorHawke (talk) 03:00, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Diversification: Delete or Rewrite

This section should be re-written to talk about the diversification of the sub-cultural philosophy and activities; how it diverges between American regions (LA, Mid-West, NY), between world regions (France, Japan, Brazil, Ect.), between class/income level, between races, and generations of participants. Even more in depth, would be to talk about how it has evolved in each of these sectors over time. This section as it is currently published seems to primarily focus on the diversification of hip hop music (MCing, and DJing) which is too focused for the purpose of the article. This article aims at the broader idea of hip hop and it's various elements and this section should aim to uphold that thesis. Even as the article stands, it appears non-neutral. There are numerous statements made which are not grounded with citation. Many of these same statements lack proper grammar and use loaded language to describe points which seem only vaguely related to the topic of "Diversification."

This section could also be useful for redirecting people to articles pertaining to gang culture, beatboxing, ect. Saveone (talk) 04:19, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

hip hop

people may not know but a successful rapper in ohio jcurt is becoming very well known he is changing hip hop as we speak —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.208.188.178 (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:nobody cares , WP:NOONECARES , WP:GARAGE Ald™ ¬_¬™ 19:02, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Meaning behind hip hop. Hip hop tells a story behind those lyrics. They mean more than words, they express anger, sadness, or happiness. It has been made loud and clear throughout hip hop that there has to be a change in society and we need to take part in it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coralnunez (talk • contribs) 01:44, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merging assistance

At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conscious hip hop the result was to merge Conscious hip hop into Hip hop. Merging it to this page in the styles section would give this minor genre undue weight. The same is true for Hip hop music. List of hip hop genres is formatted as a pure list and doesn't really have any place to put prose. Where should I move this content? Someone help me. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 04:40, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Rap music," not "hip hop music"

According to KRS One and Afrika Bambaataa, the word "hip hop" refers to the culture, not the music. This has been the definition since the late-1970s/early-1980s. The term "hip hop music" is incorrect, and KRS One has articulated this in many of his songs and lectures. However, this incorrect term is still used many times throughout the article. The correct term is "rap music," not "hip hop music." The term "hip hop," which, by the way, is correctly described in the lede, refers to the culture as a whole, which is made up of the four pillars -- MCing (aka "rapping"), DJing, breakdancing, and graffiti. "Rap music" is a musical expression of hip hop culture and typically combines one or two of the pillars (MCing, DJing, or both). (And more recently, as "rap music" has become more mainstream and is no longer reliant on turntable sampling alone, the term has come to include other aspects of professional music production that are required to create a modern rap track.) But despite the evolution of this genre of music, the terminology remains the same: the proper nomenclature is "rap music," not "hip hop music." Cheers, ask123 (talk) 19:45, 6 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


also according to KRS, it's spelled "Hiphop".72.184.233.201 (talk) 21:40, 8 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]


SupportThose within the hip hop community who study the history of the movement are very careful to distinguish between the two. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ossum86 (talk • contribs) 08:10, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, I'm not sure I buy that. Yes, pioneers and Golden Age figures like KRS-1 and Bambaataa, as well as academics, talk a lot about the four elements or "pillars" of hip-hop, but as for how the term "hip-hop" (or hiphop or hip hop) is actually used today by young people, it predominately refers to a style of music. It's a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist argument, so of course the old guys and the "scholars" will bang on about the four integral elements, while in the real world, the meaning of the term has shifted considerably. Do you really think most graffiti artists consider themselves hip-hop artists? While certain styles of graf art were, at least in the beginning, an outgrowth of the same cultural milieu as hip-hop music, that doesn't mean they necessarily have anything to do with hip-hop in 2013. If I illegally paint a picture of Ludwig van Beethoven on the side of a wall, is that hip-hop?

Bold text== Morris Heights ==

Morris Heights is historically a 55-61% Hispanic, 34-38% African-American community. Labeling either it or Sedgewick as solely "African-American" is clearly misleading, whether intentionally done so or not. -199.173.225.33 (talk) 13:45, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Morris Heights has (historically) one of the highest Hispanic populations in NYC: "While Hispanics are found in almost every neighborhood in the city, the greatest number of them live in the Bronx, particularly in Soundview, University Heights, Fordham, Bedford Park, Morris Heights, and Co-op City. [1]" Further, "In the Bronx, Hispanics accounted for nearly one-half of the borough's population. Black nonhispanics, the next largest group comprised 31 percent, and white nonhispanics were 15 percent. The substantial Hispanic presence includes the more established Puerto Rican population, Dominican immigrants who arrived in large numbers in the 1970s and 1980s, and myriad other Hispanic groups, ranging from Mexicans to a variety of Central and South American populations." In "The New Bronx," Denton Tarver notes, "As the residents left or were driven out, a new face of the Bronx emerged. Puerto Ricans were coming in record numbers during the 1950s (think West Side Story), and blacks from Harlem were moving north (think Colin Powell, the future general and politician). The South Bronx went from being two-thirds white in 1950 to being two-thirds black and Puerto Rican in 1960.[2]" Even if none of this were true, the assumption that Morris Heights was a majority African-American community would have nothing to do with the fact that Hip Hop, during the early 1970's began with the presence of both African-Americans and Hispanics. If you disagree with that, cite something more reliable than personal opinion. -RoBoTamice 13:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support--Robotam, you've done a lot of good research.

Commercialization

The first paragraph of this section is terrible, I think it should be completely removed. The meaning of the commercialization of hip-hop is that change has occurred over time in order to serve the economic interest of the industry. What a child, with no memory of pre-mass-market hip-hop, thinks about this is neither notable, relevant, or credible. The fact that the child then goes on to attribute violence in an impoverished community to music is outlandish, and purely a product of the ignorance the child has for the causes of violence, and perhaps the producer of the film too. The other paragraphs are very good and with statements attributed to notable authors. If someone who is a regular editor on this article agrees, please remove it; i think it is unsalvageable. I'm not going to remove it because it will just get reverted. The grammar is just as bad as the content. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.96.229.49 (talk) 14:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

we are 99% movement

the we are 99% movemnet is birthed from the Hip Hop movement. As one of the possible originals who coined the term, and helped organize the movement, I can personally be a witness to the 99% movement being birthed from the 5% and Hip Hop movement. I have sources but they are just personal blogs even named weare99percent that have been around much longer than OWS. Just thought it was a note of interest for the people that know what Hip Hop culture is really about. You started this! Dont let anyone say different cause I was/am there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.251.236.87 (talk) 19:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hip Hop Films

I edited the Hip-Hop Media section by contributing some films that illustrate the lifestyle from which hip-hop was born. "Boyz in the Hood", and "Menace to Society" were among these. I also labeled some movies that focus on the lives on individual rappers and hip-hop stars; such as, "Get Rich Or Die Tryin'", and "Notorious". If there are any other movies that illustrate the point of the Hip-Hop Media category, then please share! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bman8420 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend mentioning the movie "Bamboozled" by Spike Lee, which has it's own article on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboozled. It's a fictional movie about a racist white male who runs a TV studio; Mos Def is an actor in the film; the television studio has a live band program & Mos Def is part of an "underground militant rap group" who is upset about the program. See paragraph 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboozled Sylvia Blossom (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another one for the documentary category is "Hip-Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes (2006)" which takes a critical look at the misogyny in mainstream rap: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip-Hop:_Beyond_Beats_and_Rhymes . I must say though that the documentary doesn't mention the different kinds of rap and the history of hip hop; it sort of represents all of it as misogynistic, violent music. The film does talk however about how the majority of kids listening to the (gangsta rap) music are white suburban males; so it feeds them a stereotype of the black community in the U.S. that is extremely unhealthy & extremely simplistic. So it's easy to see how it could play into the fears that many white men have of black males. I think that might be a possibility that the film proposes ..... (a point that I personally find very plausible; nor do I trust the owners of the mainstream record company - but that can get into the area of "conspiracy theory", so certainly not an opinion worth mentioning, unless to note that a big name out there has proposed the same idea; & I think Spike Lee's movie Bamboozled kind of hints at that possibility, even though it's fictional & it's about a television network, not a recording studio, but there is the TV show about the live band program on there. I just can't remember if it's just the TV network wanting to make a lot of money or if on top of that he's wanting to portray black men in a very bad light, kind of like the old minstrel shows). Sylvia Blossom (talk) 16:10, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


"Has Black Music Souled Out? Capitalism, Commodification, Colonialism" is an article I found by Monique Charles. http://www.academia.edu/694687/Has_Black_Music_Souled_Out_Capitalism_Commodification_Colonialism

In regards to the subject I mentioned above, that the mainstream recording studios in the United States (mostly owned & controlled by white males) would want to put forth an exploitative image - that is to "create" an image of blackness for the public, I found a paper by a graduate student who studied that - and she especially studied the hip hop genre & her readings supported that thesis. You may want to take a look at this (see above). I noticed that someone mentioned "conscious" music as not being a large enough genre to warrant inclusion in this article, but it is important to note that the mainstream music industry solicits SPECIFIC music (in regards to lyrics & sound) that's "sellable" along with a certain image - especially for females (as in sexy as h*ll) - and not only that, but the industry may want to promote an image in society of Blacks (and Latinos for that matter) that are hyper-violent & hyper-sexual. Perhaps that's too make excuses for putting approximately 30% of black males in prison, for the racial profiling by police, as a scapegoat for increased street violence (someone to blame). Never mind that the CIA in the past (allegedly) planted drugs in certain neighborhoods and funded gang warfare between the crips and bloods (http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/cockburn-white.html; this is controversial & the theory was allegedly debunked) - never mind because that's all in the past (right?) and no one remembers that or somehow they didn't learn that in the public schools. Never mind that some people can hardly afford to eat & may lack shelter and may get into prostitution or drug selling to support themselves when unable to get a job in the competitive workforce and never-mind that the police will respond slowly, if at all, in some black and Latino neighborhoods. As for the young rappers who work for these industries, well they need money themselves to live, but then we're also being sold this idea that we should pursue wealth - an awesome car & gold jewelry - to get the ladies. This all still falls into the "opinion" area but in a discussion of the rap industry and mainstream vs. alternative music, it's really important to point out that there are academics out there who are critical and even suspicious of the music industry. Oh, and I just read that there's still an estimated 5000 KKK members in the U.S. today. And I honestly can't help from wondering what stocks in record labels any of them might own, or who they're friends with, and whatnot. Because I would imagine that some of them are wealthy and trying to protect their place of economic privilege in society..... Furthermore, there has been increasing consolidation of the media, so what happened to the anti-misogyny mainstream female rappers in the early 90s? Well, that would interfere will the overly successful sales of mainstream misogynistic rappers - which the public was devouring delightfully. People were loving that sh*t! So that last part is most definitely just my own opinion and not worth mentioning in the article, but mentioning that there are those in academia who are critical and suspicious of the music industry & a brief explanation of what they have to say, is important. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 18:06, 4 June 2013 (UTC)Sylvia Blossom (talk) 21:45, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

African American AND Hispanic American

This statement is supported by the three references given, as well as:

  • 'The origins of hip-hop and rap lie in 1970s New York African American and Latino/a dominant inner city areas as the Bronx, the Lower East Side, and Harlem' (Allatson 2007, p. 199)
  • 'Hip hop culture began in the 1970s in the Bronx among African-American, Latino and Carribean youth... ' (Turner 2003, p. Xxvi)

-Cntras (talk) 12:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Will you please give a complete citation for Turner, 2003? Nov 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ossum86 (talk • contribs) 08:31, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can we please stop reverting this as vandalism

The following sentences appear at the end of the "American Society" section:

  • Lindsay Calhoun proposes the idea that Eminem constructs his identity as a white male through hegemonic masculine dominance, whiteness, and heterosexuality. Since Eminem’s music articulates whiteness in a unique way and it intersects with hegemonic masculinity, it helps us understand how discursive strategies of whiteness and masculinity both adapt, change, and sustain themselves in both a contradictory way as well as a consistent way through cultural expressions such as rap music.

I've tried to remove this a couple of times. The first time it was tagged as vandalism and automatically reverted. The second it was reverted again because of "unexplained removal". The third, another vandalism bot (or maybe a person using a vandalism tool?) reverted it again. Read the passage as a whole. It describes how gangsta rap emerged and began to supplant social and politically conscious rap. Then this is just tacked on to the end, saying "Oh, by the way, Eminem (whose name had not been used prior) is white, male, and heterosexual, and he raps about being white, male, and heterosexual. In fact, he defines his identity as a white male through being white".

It does not fit with the passage at all. On top of that, it's incredibly verbose, uses nearly incoherent and meaningless language, and adds nothing to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.65.52.146 (talk) 04:16, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

gnōthi seauton

SFAIK, this subject is without any merit as a vehicle for self knowledge for populations that desperately need to reject the backwardness and ignorance it trumpets. If there is some sense in which hip hop actually has self knowledge, or real knowledge of human cultural attainments as an element of what it's about, please supply that with a reference and revert my change to the lede. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 03:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also suggest following change for the current last lede ¶ sentences: change "at its best"/"at its worst" to "supporters claim"/"detractors claim" and provide support. Current text indicates that it is an escape from poverty but doesn't say for whom. In fact by re-enforcing the culture that leads to poverty it helps lock people into same, except for those cashing in on the degradation of their communities. 72.228.190.243 (talk) 11:10, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Female Hip Hop Artists - International - Mainstream & Alternative - ARTICLE NEEDS MORE FEMALE NAMES - Please contribute Names & Information: 80s-Today

I see a few or maybe a couple of female hip hop artists listed in this article, but WHERE is Queen Latifah, MC Lyte, Missy Elliot, Monie Love, & girl groups TLC & Salt-N-Pepa, all who became quite popular in the 1990s?????????? Also, whenever female names are mentioned in the article, like M.I.A., the article should mention them as females, so that readers trying to find info on female hip hop artists/rappers can find them easily. It can't be assumed that people will automatically know who's who on this list. I mean "Queen" & "Missy" are general clues, although "Queen" also commonly refers to drag queens. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is suggested content for this article. Although there is a list of female rappers on wikipedia, I cannot find a page that discusses female contributions by decade & that examines female contributions in mainstream, underground/alternative, globally, & discussion of socially conscious/feminist/political artists. Those of you that know about the history of female hip hop artists, please write something about the decade & list any names you're aware of on this talk page. Especially anything that has been documented by historians specializing in Women's history! The lack of female emcees and contributions in this article is extremely sad.

Hey all, starting this section. There needs to be a separate section for female hip hop artists. Please contribute names of alternative & mainstream female hip hop artists from 80s-today from around the world, not so obscure as to be non-verifiable, but as long as they have a copyrighted album or appear on a copyrighted compilation (like an underground compilation for example) that should be fine. If they are PART of a hip hop group/collective, please list the name of the group. If anyone wants to say a paragraph about female hip hop artists for each decade or a specific decade (both about mainstream & alternative artists, feminist issues, political artists, etc.) with citations - go for it! I have listed them according to the DECADE when their recording careers as hip hop artists STARTED (whether singles or albums). Although some started as underground, I listed them under mainstream if they rose to prominence. Some artists fall under multiple genres. Res wasn't listed as a hip hop artist under her solo work but has been doing hip hop with Idle Warship since 2009, so I listed 2009 as the start date.

Female Hip Hop Artists

1980s

Mainstream:

  • MC Lyte (United States, 1988-x)
  • Monie Love (United Kingdom, 1989-x)
  • Roxanne Shanté (Career 1984-x); considered to be one of the pioneers in the emerging genre of hip hop, and the first female hip hop artist to gain widespread media attention in the United States.

Alternative:


1990s

Mainstream:

  • Da Brat (United States, 1992-x)
  • Lil' Kim (United States)
  • Lisa "Left Eye" Lopez
  • M.I.A. (United Kingdom, 2002-x)
  • Monie Love (United States)
  • Queen Latifah (United States)
  • Salt-N-Pepa (United States girl group)
  • Sugababes (United Kingdom)
  • TLC (United States)

Alternative:


2000-2009:

Mainstream:

Alternative:

2010s

Mainstream:

Alternative:

  • Baby Blue
  • Estelle (United Kingdom)
  • Lady Sovereign
  • Misha B (United Kindgom)
  • Notorious T (United Kingdom)
  • Res (of Idle Warship, 2009-x)
  • Rye Rye (Career 2012-present)
  • Shystie
  • Speech Debelle
  • Yo Majesty (United Kingdom)

Check on starting decade and nation for:

  • Bahamdia
  • Deadly Venoms
  • Eve
  • Foxy Brown
  • Heather B
  • J-Pop (Japan)
  • Jean Grea
  • Floetry
  • Nneka
  • Queen Pen
  • Rah Digga


Check on female rappers name for collective/groups + beginning date of recording career:

  • Digable Planets

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 23:20, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Sylvia Blossom (talk) 22:12, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Sylvia Blossom (talk) 17:35, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative & Underground Hip Hop Artists: Names to Consider Including in Article + Names That Have Been Added Already

LIST IS ALPHABETIZED. PLEASE ADD MORE NAMES!! Go ahead and edit the list; try to add them in alphabetical order. Names not already mentioned in the article can be considered for the article, for someone who wishes to add them & say something about them (with a citation of course). Although I created a separate section for female rappers, it is also appropriate for them to appear here as well.

This is not a complete list of alternative rappers already listed in the article. If you see some in the article mentioned that count as "alternative" or "underground" add them here.

Although some of these were relatively popular, some of them are noteworthy of the "Alternative" status due to socially conscious lyrics.

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:40, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey all - just started this. Feel free to contribute names. Please double check that you spelled names correctly so no one gets confused. I haven't had time to alphabetize yet. Go ahead if you like. Thanks!

Please list name of artist/group & approximate start date if known (like when they started performing under that name or when they first recorded singles or an album). Must have or be featured on a copyrighted & verifiable album, or be featured on some other dated document/program (like sampled by a DJ, written about in a review/journal/magazine/book, listed on a flyer that was copied in a newspaper or other resource, etc.). Although Wikipedia has certain requirements for "noteworthiness" of performers, there are exceptions that can be made if relevant to the article (whether they would be worthy of their own wikipedia page or not). So if they are very underground, BRIEFLY explain the relevance please. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 15:28, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry - I got confused - because there's two articles about hip hop on wikipedia; this one and "hip hop music" so earlier I had noticed the names of 3 or 4 very early female rappers listed, but I think it was on the other one. I'm tired, so I'll have to come back to look at these articles later and try to understand the difference between the two. At any rate, it's not okay to drop the names of NUMEROUS male rappers without also dropping the names of relevant/significant females for each topic. You would almost think these female rappers never existed looking at this article. I believe the other one also is inadequate, so I have to come back to BOTH of these when I'm less tired to make suggestions. In the meantime, anyone out there who has names they'd like to add to this list for CONSIDERATION, please do so. With underground acts, they must be verifiable, and you should really indicate their relevance to a specific topic in this article (like a rapper who discusses the commercialization of rap for example).

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 15:28, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Arrested Development
  • A Tribe Called Quest
  • Black Sheep
  • Blue Scholars
  • De La Soul
  • Digable Planet
  • Frank Ocean (of "Odd Future"; alternative; recently came out as bisexual)
  • G'Fellas
  • Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five
  • Idle Warship
  • Lady B (female, mentioned in other hip hop wikipedia article?)
  • MC Lyte
  • MC Sha Rock of “Funky Four Plus One” (female, mentioned in other hip hop wikipedia article?)
  • M.I.A. female; (mentioned in article already?)
  • Monie Love
  • Odd Squad
  • Peaches (female; feminist/sexually provocative lyrics/ was an English major)
  • Public Enemy
  • Q-Tip
  • Saul Williams (liberal; socially conscious rapper, covers a large variety of topics related to society, war, racism, money, power, etc. Saul Williams is educated; his lyrics are very intelligent, and he does question issues like commercialization and what-not).
  • Sonic Boom Six (Hip Hop-Punk-Ska)
  • The Jungle Brothers
  • The Sequence (all-female trio with Angie Stone)
  • Tu Pac
  • Yo Magesty (alternative; openly queer female trio)

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:45, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 23:35, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

80s & 90s Sections - ESSENTIAL NAMES to Add (Like Shanté, MC Lyte, Missy Elliot, Queen Latifah!!!!) - Hello???Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:11, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I CANNOT believe the absence of popular female rappers Shanté, MC Lyte, Missy Elliot, Queen Latifah, & Monie Love in this article - unless I am SOMEHOW just not seeing them! Groups TLC + Salt-N-Pepa were also quite popular & ESSENTIAL for this article. It would be nice to also mention a couple more underground female groups, but it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to have the above mentioned names!!! 

Sylvia Blossom (talk) 14:11, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, Shanté, MC Lyte, and Queen Latifah were three early female rappers who did respond to misogyny by mainstream male rappers (which was also present in much of the underground rap as well". Queen Latifah's song "U.N.I.T.Y." directly questioned the calling of women as "b*tches" & "hoes". This should be mentioned in the section that discusses misogyny in rap. Sylvia Blossom (talk) 15:00, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Growth of Alternative Hip Hop Music in Internet Age + Female Rappers (80s-today/globally) & the Cultural Relevance of Both

So I noticed that this (or was it the other article?) mentioned something about hip hop being "dead" as there has been a decline in the sales of [gangsta] rap. I'd have to strongly disagree with that statement as I feel it hasn't died, it's face has changed, with increases in conscious hip hop, and people marketed that stuff in the 80s (though some of that is still misogynistic to some degree though certainly not nearly as much as the gangsta rap). Gangsta Rap sent all that into the underground, and now more people want the alternative stuff and they can get it with the increase of indie labels and the increased promotion of the alternative musicians by those labels. It is important to point out the growth of alternative hip hop music in the 2000s as it is relevant to hip hop culture & culture in general. The article on "hip hop music" points this out, though they indicate that many of the consumers of alternative hip hop music are the "indie rock" types. Although this is mentioned in the other article, I think it's worth pointing out that hip hop isn't "dead" just changing as it is culturally relevant, particularly in regards to who it is that's accessing the alternative and underground music online, what kind of music they're looking for, who isn't, and how it affects the images and beliefs that people have today vs. Gangsta Rap's golden age. Of course, K-12 education has increased their teachings of multicultural studies over the last couple of decades, so that has also helped some young people to not learn as much racism growing up. Still it persists, but are many of the racists older? A professor of mine in African American Culture said that things will be better when the "old people die". No one wants their grandparents to pass away, but will racism decrease with the passing of time, or will poor economic times always factor in causing racism to go up and down with the economy?

I know that some of the stuff here is duplication of stuff in the other article, but how to keep the music and culture separate? You can't explain one without explaining the other. Discussing this with the writers & editors of the other article may be necessary - and this article should be heavier on the cultural stuff and lighter on the techniques (like beat boxing) except to briefly explain the cultural heritage that these techniques came out of. More important to the culture is the public image, what stuff has been mainstream and what is underground, what types of music came out of which cultural areas, and it's effect on the global culture. The other article should discuss the techniques in more detail.

There still needs to be more females listed through-out the article as they have been present from the early 80s to today, in the U.S. and globally, and are certainly part of the cultural heritage and legacy as well - whether they be feminist, rapping about relationships, sex, men, friends, or even women (there are some queer hip hop artists out there though generally alternative),politics, poverty, etc. and about the female global rappers, etc. - what are they responding too in their lyrics, what image do they present with, and what has their cultural impact been?

DO WE HAVE ANY FEMALE HIP HOP SCHOLARS OUT THERE? IF SO, PLEASE HELP! Sylvia Blossom (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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