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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Abdulruff (talk | contribs) at 06:44, 19 December 2013 (→‎Dr. Abdul Ruff Colachal: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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    WikiProject iconArticles for creation Project‑class
    WikiProject iconThis page is used for the administration of the Articles for Creation or Files for Upload processes and is therefore within the scope of WikiProject Articles for Creation. Please direct any queries to the discussion page.Articles for creationWikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creationTemplate:WikiProject Articles for creation (admin)AfC project pagesWikiProject icon
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      Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used

      Problem

      I'm having to decline or comment on every submission twice before the script actually does what it has to. What's happening? FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 18:17, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      @FoCuSandLeArN: What version are you using (develop, beta, gadget)? Theopolisme (talk) 19:48, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      The one enabled on settings. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 21:40, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Try disabling the gadget via settings, adding

      importScript('MediaWiki:Gadget-afchelper-beta.js'); // AFCH beta script [[MediaWiki:Gadget-afchelper-beta.js]]

      to your Special:MyPage/common.js page, and then bypassing your cache. Please let me know if this resolves the problem. Theopolisme (talk) 22:27, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      A simple log-off/in solved it. Bizarre...but thanks! FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      [[1]]

      Dear reviewers: The text on this page should really have been on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk page. I thought of moving it in among the archived discussions from last year. Is this a good idea, or is modifying the archive inappropriate? —Anne Delong (talk) 03:27, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Well, I guess the bot got it. —Anne Delong (talk) 01:22, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Ronald Reagan Airport Buševo

      This appears to be a hoax - references don't mention it, and the coordinates are in the Adriatic Sea - but has not been submitted. I found it when looking at contributions of an IP range that appears to be only used for vandalism. Is it acceptable to decline before submission? Peter James (talk) 17:32, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Blatant hoaxes fall under the general criteria for speedy deletion. So I guess you could try CSD'ing it. Michaelzeng7 (talk) 22:29, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      It was deleted per CSD G3, as a blatant hoax. Northamerica1000(talk) 15:17, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Backlog drive - current lack of statistics.

      By now its probably rather obvious that the AFC backlog drive statistics aren't updated regularly - or not at all for that matter. The reason for this is that the code responsible for uploading the generated data to Wikipedia is consistently receiving an HTTP 503 as a response to the upload attempt. After initially assuming this was something temporal it would now seem that there is an underlying issue somewhere. The issue itself is actually quite problematic for a few reasons:

      • The upload code and any code calling this code hasn't been changed since the last drive, or in fact: At all for during the past few months.
      • At first glance AFCBuddy seems to be sending data properly - though the server persistently returns an error. If the same data is send to the API sandbox everything seems to work well though.
      • The 503 errors provide no detail at all. All it replies is that something goes awry, without a clue as to what that would be.

      Long story short: It may take some time to figure out what is happening, why this is happing and subsequently preventing it will happen. Hopefully i will have some time during the weekend to sit down and analyze what is going on. Note that the statistics themselves are correctly generated - in a worst case scenario i can upload them manually but I'd rather not do so as it is both tedious and time consuming work. Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 19:46, 4 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Could it be due to the change to HTTPS? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:53, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      I've been manually updating information and statistics at the December 2013 - January 2014 Backlog Elimination Drive page. Hopefully fixes can occur so this can resume with the script. Northamerica1000(talk) 15:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Please save yourself that hassle! AFCBuddy still generates the output for the various pages just fine, it just doesn't upload the results automatically. The worst case scenario would involve me opening several text files manually and subsequently copying their contents in an edit window. There is no need to track reviews manually since I actually have those at hand - and even if that would not be the case all of them can be retroactively generated at any point in time.
      Actually, I would advice against logging reviews manually. It is a waste of time since they are still generated automatically (Just not uploaded), and due to the many different formats currently used to log edits it might be possible that re-reviews cannot be correctly detected. Just ignore the stats entirely till we are past this weekend - ill look into the issue, and if for some reason fixing it turns out to be more complex i'll upload the generated results manually. Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 08:41, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      I think the problem is also being seen with twinkle and AFCH for those with the CSD log enabled. Rankersbo (talk) 13:21, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      No, sorry, red herring. I checked and that problem was my own settings. Rankersbo (talk) 06:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      User:Excirial: Thanks for looking into the matter. Automatic generation is sure easier than manual updating. Hopefully everything can be worked out to work smoothly. Thanks, Northamerica1000(talk) 05:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Slow down the G13 bot please

      There a re now 163 pages in the CSD cat. Too many for us to be expected to take a proper look at them and resucue any. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:00, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      With respect to Kudpung The bot hasn't nominated any pages in over 3 hours Special:Contributions/HasteurBot). It appears that the large glut of nominations is currently from JMHamo. Hasteur (talk) 18:05, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Well according to his contribs, he's nominating them at a rate of 3 or 4 a miute, so he must be using a scsript of some kind. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      No script used by me, but I will cease the nominations for the moment. JMHamo (talk) 18:38, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Probably best if you would just leave it to Hasteur and his bot. He knows how to pace the nominations so that we admins can cope with them and give them the attention they deserve before finally deleting them or rescuing them. . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      @Kudpung I find your comment very offensive, I am sorry if I am too efficient for the Admins. I am not new to Wikipedia and think that I (a real human being) can do a better job than a bot. I know the difference between a good article that should be moved to the Main space or one that should be deleted. Rather than discourage editors from clearing the huge backlog, you should be encouraging. I will slow down my nominations if you can not cope but I will not stop. JMHamo (talk) 19:30, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      I'm not in the slightest bit concerned whether you know what to tag or not - although the speed of it certzinly gives me pause. As deleting admin, even I can't review then that fast, and we just don't have the capacity to fight a new backlog that is the issue of another one. We don't know from the cat which are your carefully selected CSDs and which were produced by Hasteur's bot. The danger is, that there are some admins who will simply do a batch deletion when they see that number, and they won't get reviewed again at all. So lighten up a bit before you use expressions such as 'offensive' - we're all doing our best, and expressing concerns when appropriate. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:25, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Good luck with the other 29,943 then. Your attitude has lost a volunteer. JMHamo (talk) 20:29, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      JMHamo We've been growing this herd of potential nominations for 4 years. If you had slown down and looked at previous discussions, you would have seen that there was a agreed to consensus of how many the bot will nominate in a time frame and work with the Admins working the cleanout. Since the bot has started I think it's worked close to 20k nominations. We are making progress but there are other places you could focus your attention, such as the Category:G13 eligible AfC submissions to look for submissions that deserve annother chance, to the Category:AfC pending submissions by age which has 2k pages that are begging for an experienced editor to look over them to determine if they can be promoted to article space or if they still need work. Your combative and hostile demenor when asked for an accounting, suggest that you still don't understand the collaborative nature of wikipedia. Hasteur (talk) 20:37, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      No thanks. I'm out. I wish the project well. JMHamo (talk) 20:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      (Re to JMHamo)This is a shame, I think. In wikipedia we are told to assume good faith that is not to judge people too much by tone, so as (I presume) to accomodate people from different cultural and social backgrounds. But I think even so it would be, shall I say, productive to use a little bit of "sugar coating" in order to avoid incidents like this happening in the future. Starting a note on a user page with something like, "Hi there, thanks for your help at the AfC project. However..." comes across as advice that is more likely to be heeded than a bland statement of a mistake.
      Tact isn't pointless, or a form of lie, and valuing tact is not bad faith. Contrary to what is written above people who react badly to extreme tactlessness are not taking things too seriously. Rankersbo (talk) 09:14, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      (Re to Kudpung of 18:56) The nomination for g13 template has an indicator as to who did the nomination (which is popped open for admins). I would assume that the Admin is clicking into the page and can easily see who nominated the page during their "1 last review" before deletion. Hasteur (talk) 20:40, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      very true of course, but knowing that your bot was doing the tagging I have been generally concentrating on the actual content. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:50, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Kudpung, you're welcome for that feature. JMHamo, I've done a great number of G13 nominations as well (part of the reason for my updates to {{Db-g13}}, the AFCH, and my creation of {{User:Technical 13/Userboxes/G13}}. Generally, I try to keep the backlog to below 75-100 (the bot is throttled at 50 and admins have the option to poke it to make it pump out 50 more). I personally agree with you that humans can do a better job selected those fit for CSD and those fit for rescue, but there is no reason to get the queue over 100, ever... I hope you do reconsider giving up on this project, and instead simply slow down a little. Hrmmm... That kind of gives me an idea... Theopolisme, Hasteur, and mabdul, what do you think about a warning attached to the "Tag for G13" button that is given asking if the user is sure when the backlog is already say 80+? Technical 13 (talk) 22:44, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Technical 13: let us discuss this in another thread (on this page), but the idea sound not bad... ;-) mabdul 07:12, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Technical 13 The bot doesn't pump out 50 more if there's already 50 in the queue. User:HasteurBot/KickoffNom is designed to wake the bot up early and run the base nomination process that normally runs at the top of the hour. (i.e. If the admins exhaust the G13 nominations in 15 minutes past the hour, they can request another filling up to 50 at that page). I think it would be a good idea to have the G13 button Alert nag at 60 and full disable (without some clever poking around) at 80 pages in the G13 queue. Other than that I'd like to see Twinkle also implement the same type of logic so that it makes it that more difficult for lone wolf editors to go out and cause a ruccus. Hasteur (talk) 23:56, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      I have been leaving most of the ones that I check for the bot to nominate, but occasionally I nominate one that is completely useless, to prevent others from the trouble of checking it again. [[Kudpung กุดผึ้ง]], I don't know enough about how the deletion process works. Does a big backlog of G13 nominations cause a problem of some kind? —Anne Delong (talk) 01:20, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      All pages tagged for CSD are lited at Category:Candidates for speedy deletion, that's where I belive most admins who work through deletion work from. At any given time there are usually areound 50 or so candidates in the cat, but it depends very much on who is working and what time zone they are in. Obviously my time zone is the oppposite (12 hours ahead of the USA and 7 hours ahead of Europe) so I'm mostly active when others are sleeping. Among the CSDs there are some that need to be deleted very quickly, while perhaps others are not so urgent. If done properly, and allowing time for the pages to load, reviewing them, clicking the delete button and waiting for the 'Action completed' page, it can take up to a minute to delete a page and sometimes much longer if one comes across something unusual that requires further research. It's boring routine work and frankly I would rather be spending my time doing something else, but deletions are also what admins are expected to do. When I open that cat and see up to 160 tails in it, I think 'OMG!' and then get to work, and when I do, I'm usually the only one there. My greatest fear is that some admins do not thoroughly examine each page and I'm failrly sure that some do batch deletions when they see a lot of G13. What we really need is some input from DGG. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:41, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm in the situation of being too busy rescuing articles to talk much about how we should rescue them, which is the reason I haven't been commenting here much. I think the basic strategy behind the bot is rational, though I would adjust the parameters further in order to go more slowly. I've suggested that the possibility of letting individual nomination go faster than the bot does need change, and I'm glad Hasteur sees the problem also. The danger in this is not just the numbers, but in someone deciding to go out of sequence and thus confuse the process of systematic checking. As for my own practice, I do just as Anne does-- when I check, I just rescue, I only list for G13 in special cases (when I think there's a more important reason than G13, or I think that it's a field I know and can tell it isn't conceivably worth rescue but others might think it ambiguous.) I also sometimes put on an additional speedy tag to a G13 tag, even for something already in CAT:CSD, as a warning against accidental undeletion.
      I agree with Kudpung that many admins see to go thru the G13s much too rapidly, much more rapidly than they would ordinarily check speedys. For ordinary speedys, almost all of us are fairly deliberate, getting rid first of the G10s and G12s., and then going a few at a time, leaving any we're not sure about for someone else. (and when I nominate for speedy and nobody has deleted it 24 hours later, I conclude I may have been too quick to judge, and use another method.) But for the large number of G13s, almost everyone does it too quickly. Large amounts of backlog, or more exactly anything that looks like large amounts of backlog, tend to intimidate us into going too hastily--it's rather a reason for slowing down, and going carefully but thoroughly to avoid error. If I see 100, I'll clear maybe 10, and leave the rest to others, in order to avoid the tendency I know that I have of getting a little careless in such circumstances--in fact, looking back at my log, I have almost never deleted more than 10 articles at a time, for I learned soon after becoming an admin that I was capable of overdoing it. I urge those who go faster to consider whether they are actually as infallible as they think they are, as I once though I was.
      When I do check the G13 nomination, out of a batch of 50 G13s , I usually find one or sometimes two or three that should not be deleted, by which I mean that they might possibly have promise. Maybe once or twice a day I even find one ready immediately for mainspace, but anything even slightly dubious can be deferred until we've removed the 90 or 95% of undoubted junk. In other words, if it takes thinking, it shouldn't be deleted. That's supposed to be the rule we use for all speedies, actually.
      I once a day even try to check the deletion log. using intuition to find a few to review. Obviously my yield is lower, but I do generally find one a day to undelete. I make a list for what I want to work on later, but I expect that others will work on most of them, in the usual WP manner.
      I've noticed that humans in all sorts of things have a tendency to overspeed when they're getting near then end, trying to complete everything. I know I get quite impatient when I'm driving home, and have almost gotten there. And all sorts of really strange things get done in the last 5 minutes of a meeting. DGG ( talk ) 05:56, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      What level of pending candidates for deletion should human reviewers be aiming for? I tend to use the human eye to weed out the no hopers (school kids writing about their mates, two liners, and insubstantial drafts for articles that were created in mainspace independently to give 3 examples)- but often the buffer is over the 50 mark. I think admins should concentrate on clearing cats other than G13 and G2, and leave those cats backlogged before going for the G13 mountain, but I'm not about to wade in to the admin baord with my size 44s telling them that. Rankersbo (talk) 09:16, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      The Tip Threshold is 50. That's when the Category reports as a Backlog item on the Admin dashboard and the right side of {{User:Technical 13/Userboxes/G13}} turn into "Concern issues". If we're below the threshold and there's technically eligible G13 records available that haven't been picked up by the bot, then go ahead and make the nominations, otherwise it's only overloading the Admins unnecessarily. Hasteur (talk) 09:34, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Hmm... so the bot and the human checkers are using the same allowance then? Human's don't have more leeway. Then all things considered- the fact that the bot has caught up with the human team, and that the buffer is often full- I would support slowing down (reducing the frequency between checks), or even pausing the bot for a while. We were on about 80000 before the bot was created, and are down to less than 30000 from 48000 in the few weeks since it was restarted.
      A rest may now be in order, or (if it doesn't involve any beuorcarcy) a refocussing on articles smaller than, say half a kb? Rankersbo (talk) 09:59, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      We've had 2 rests already (October Backlog drive and 2nd week in november when I was on vacation). Re working the bot to only nominate pages that are under a arbitrary threshold size is going to be a very significant undertaking. And the burn down doesn't mean that we've deleted that many, it means that for one reason or another (deletion, editing, deferment, etc.) they're no longer eligible for G13. If I had to wager, I'd bet that the users were given a jolt to remind them and we'll see them show back up in around 6 months. Hasteur (talk) 14:02, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      One thing to consider when discussing the numbers is that as the months pass, more submissions become eligible and are added to the category, so if none were being deleted, the total would fairly quickly begin to rise again. In a couple of months, the early postponements will start to reappear on the list, and so when the backlog gets down to these, the rate of checking will slow down, since these should be on the average much better quality than the ones we are checking now. —Anne Delong (talk) 22:26, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      AFCH script and custom submitter

      I wanted to promote Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/PACT programming model as Parallelization contract. The author's user page has been changed from another account, with a claim that the other account belongs to the same person [2]. Believing the claim, I chose "custom submitter" in the script and gave the new account, Physikerwelt, as the submitter, rather than the original author, Schubi87. Unfortunately, when I chose "accept" in the script, the notice went to User talk:72.200.84.87, notifiying someone who had previously inserted an AfC submittion template [3] into the draft. —rybec 00:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Well the script always takes the oldest submitted template. mabdul 07:15, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Kafziel and his reviews

      Kafziel seems to be making especially troublesome reviews - he either accepts or deletes drafts - he doesn't "decline" them, just deletes them. Some of his deletions is especially problematic, for example deleting an article per a csd criteria in the article section. To game the system, he has sometimes "accepted" articles by moving them into mainspace and then immediately deleting them. Huon has left him a message on his talk page, but Kafziel has declined to change his reviews, citing that he is not a member of AfC, and thus does not need to follow their rules as it is not policy. User talk:Kafziel#Skimlinks may explain the rationale behind his actions, which is completely against consensus. I am at a loss of what to do, can someone help? Thanks! Darylgolden(talk) 01:27, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Always they reach for IAR without reading the preamble (If a rule prevents you from improving wikipedia, ignore it). I've asked Kafziel to explain themselves per the Administrator Actions clause. But I don't have access to the articles that they've been mucking with. Darylgolden if you disagree with Kafziel's actions, as an administrator, you could bring them to AN for review. Hasteur (talk) 04:59, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Is this the editor who tried to cut down the backlog by just accepting all the articles that were still in the system after 4 weeks? Rankersbo (talk) 06:57, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      This discussion has now moved to WP:AN/I at this thread. Bellerophon talk to me 15:25, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      The matter is now at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case and will probably be an open ArbCom case before long. (5 arbs have so far voted to accept the case, and none to decline.) I restored some of the deletions, and left a statement on the case request. Others may want to make a statement also, or later provide evidence. DES (talk) 20:09, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Suggestion re backlog

      My name is noticeably absent from those who do the heavy lifting with the reviews, so I'll understand that I may not have the qualifications to be making suggestions on process. In my defense, I do field a lot of OTRS questions, many of which relate to AFC, so I do see the process, and in ways that some of the regulars might not see. As is well-known, there is a backlog. Recruiting more volunteers would be an answer, but that isn't an easy sell. I did a fair amount of work at the predecessor to AfC, the Feedback forum, and frankly, it twas largely thankless work. So I can't really imagine an easy way to attract new editor to AfC in general. Of course, I could volunteer, but I'm struggling to find enough volunteers to help out at Wikipedia:WikiProject Basketball/Women's basketball. While I'm not ready to sign up as a general volunteer, if someone ran across an article related to women's basketball, I would be happy to get involved.


      That reminded me of something Anne Delong did, which I hope can be formalized? I don't remember where I saw it, but she posted a link to an AfC submission to a Wikiproject page. In short, rather than recruiting generalists for AfC, why not strong arm Wikiprojects into agreeing that they would review submissions in their area?

      I'm here because of an OTRS issue. After helping someone process permission, she asked when the submission about her might be done. My heart sank, because I knew the answer was not a short period of time. Then I decided to check with a specific editor, and if that failed, try the relevant Wikiproject. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the first request will work, but it reminded me again that it might make sense to reach out to Wikiprojects.

      In principle, the process is simple. Craft a plea directed at Wikiprojects, letting hem know how backlogged the process is and that many potential articles in their area of expertise are not getting the attention they deserve. They would be hard-pressed to turn you down, how can they argue that their main goal is articles about X, and turn down helping with articles about X? If they agree, someone can work out the details, but one approach would be to add a section to the main Wikiproject page for relevant submissions, then create a list for AfC volunteers, Then part of the triage could be to see if the draft fits in to any of the Wikiprojects who signed up, turn it over to them (with a name who can help with the review process,and then reviewers can concentrate on drafts who don't have a participating Wikiproject.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      I and a number of other Afc reviewers have been pointing out specific submissions to Wikiprojects, but this is a laborious process and many times there is no response. What's needed is a way to search only the current submissions for a specific keyword. I spent some time trying to figure this out and asked for help at VPT, but to no avail so far. The search engine won't pick up variations in the template (I think because it's transcluded, but it's been a while, so I may have the reason wrong), so it picks up all of the declined submissions with the current ones. Catscan picks up the category and the submission template, but doesn't have a keyword search. Google won't work because the submissions are NOINDEX. If Wikiproject members could do a keyword search on only the active submissions, then, for example, football enthusiasts could visit Afc, type in "football", and see if there were any current submissions of interest. It's not reasonable for editors from special interest groups to check thousands of submissions in cast five or six might be relevant; nor is is reasonable to ask them to check hundreds of submissions with a certain keyword, when most of them have already been declined. —Anne Delong (talk) 21:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Now I remember your VPT request; I'm not sure it sunk in at the time. My thinking is that it might be valuable to get buy-in from the Wikiproejct first. In theory, if you drop a submission relevant to them in their main page, someone should take a look at it, but sometimes we fall into the "someone else will do it". If one starts a discussion on the project talk page, and some member s agree they should be responsive, maybe there will be more action if an article is then added to a list. Anne, you probably have a good sense of typical categories - what might be a good pilot? I'm pretty sure your answer won't be women's basketball. Biographies is too general, but maybe something like bands or music or football?--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:13, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      OK, I have another idea, this one is better. You weren't able to get a software solution to the keyword identification, let's try a wetware solution. I assume there is some general information provided to editors who start articles. Why not tell them that, then current backlog is roughly x days, but can be reduced to y days if the article falls into one of the following categories? There's a bit of a cart and horse problem here, but if we got a few Wikiprojects to agree to do a review in, say 30 days, we could list the eligible categories. The problem might be if we start with only a couple categories, editors will be tempted to pick one, in hopes of a shorter review period. I think we can address that, but let's start by seeing if the general idea has any merit.--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      This idea has been suggested before (I'm sorry, I don't remember where), and should be technically feasible since the code for a list of Wikiprojects has already been added to the "accept" process in the Afc script. The problem is that not all Wikiprojects are active, and that we really can't promise anything because editors at Wikiprojects come and go and do what they like. A simple software solution, which maybe we could request from our helpful script developers, would be to add to all active submissions, at the time the Afc template is added, some small identifying text that the search engine could pick up (maybe AFC_SUBMISSION <!--do not delete this line--> or some such). Then when the submission was declined, this text could be removed. If this were done, a custom search would pick up only the active submissions when a person typed in a keyword, such as "opera" or "basketball", and we could ask interested Wikiprojects to post a custom-custom search including this keyword on their Wikiproject page so that a simple click would let them check for new interesting submissions. The only flaw I see is that the text might be deleted by submitters who don't follow instructions. —Anne Delong (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      It was proposed here by me, suggested by another editor, and I still very much support it - though there seemed to be little support last time. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Probably should have done my homework first. After posting, checked a few wikiprojects, and was surprised to see how inactive they are. Too bad.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:41, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Don't feel bad. It took me 15 minutes to find it, and I wrote it. I still believe the marjority of the counter arguments are not really reasonable, and solvable really easy (ask WikiProjects if they want to be notified, and ask, don't oblige reviewers and AfC creators to select possibly interested WikiProjects from the List(tm)). Demanding evidence of effectiveness before trying it out is beyond silly to me. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 20:01, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      That might be caused by sour grapes and grumpy old wikipedian syndrome though. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 20:02, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      In my mind there's nothing with poking some of the most active projects (like MILHIST/ROADS/Anime) and seeing if they're willing to take over the job of reviewing the submissions for their subject. Hasteur (talk) 20:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      I have been notifying a number of Wikiprojects about submissions in their area. The results are mixed, not only because of lack of response, but because sometimes there are people willing to give opinions but lacking in knowledge of how to use the review script or not wanting to go through all of the instructions. What would be most immediately helpful for these people would be an easy way for editors who don't want to learn the ropes at Afc, but have subject knowledge, is an easy way for them to use the Afc comment template to add their opinions about notability or source reliability at the top of the submissions. Then the usual reviewers could read the comments and be saved the time of going off to find someone knowledgeable. Of course, some Wikiprojects have members who know all about reviewing, and don't need this. —Anne Delong (talk) 20:43, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Now that the AfC helper script has been gadgetified and can be used in other namespace, I don't really see why even uninitiated Wikiproject members wouldn't be able to use it to add comments. Perhaps they just need the idea selling to them more. Bellerophon talk to me 00:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      A possible workflow could be to ask Wikiprojects if they would be interested in receiving notifications for AfC's, compile a list of interested wikiprojects, incorporate a step in the article wizard and review gadget where they can tick subjects it might fall under. The AfC should then be added to a category per subject, for example, a submitted draft would then end up in Category:AfC submissions for MILHIST and Category:AfC submissions for Anime I don't know what article would fall in these two categories, but I definitely would want to see it. As part of a review step, reviewers would be able to add and remove wikiproject categories. I remain of the opinion that this will definitely not be harmful, and is potentially very useful (though this is still to be proven). If it turns out to be useless, no harm done. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 09:54, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      I doubt if it would work. Of the 400 or so registered members at WP:WPSQCH for example, AFAIK I'm the only editor who systematically works on school articles other than the ones I created myself. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:51, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      As someone who wants to focus on particular topics, it's very frustrating not being able to distinguish between unreviewed submissions and rejected submissions. For example if I search for "football -redirect", there are about 1800 articles, most of which are low quality dead-end articles. There needs to be some way of categorising articles by genre - even if it is relatively broad. Hack (talk) 05:20, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      I'm asking a WikiProject about a related situation at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Psychology#A bombardment of new psychology articles at Articles for Creation - class project? - in particular, whether that Wikiproject would prefer acceptable-looking articles to be simply accepted by non-specialists and dropped into their Wikiproject category for remedial tidy-up, or whether they would like us to confer with them about acceptance on a case by case basis. Arthur goes shopping (talk) 14:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]


      Since the backlog is not organized by topic, soliciting the involvement of WikiProject members to help with the backlog would amount to an awareness campaign targeting all WikiProjects. This feels a bit like spam. I would suggest an awareness campaign targeted to the assessment departments of any WikiProject that has such a department. We can post an appeal to the assessment department's talk page. The starting point, if we want to pursue this idea, is to identify which WikiProjects have assessment departments. ~KvnG 18:21, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Categories for Deletion Notice

      I have proposed that Category:AfC pending submissions by age/21 days ago through Category:AfC pending submissions by age/28 days ago be nominated on the grounds that they are not being used nor are they procedurally being used. The nomination is at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 December 9#Category:AfC pending submissions by age/28 days ago. Please feel free to weigh in on the debate if you feel it is appropriate. Hasteur (talk) 22:51, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Articles like this

      Is there a simple way to move this back to AfC or NPP? If not, there should be. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 12:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      It is not patrolled, so it is in the NPP queue. As far as I can see, this article was never in AfC, so there is no way to move it "BACK" there. In any case, no one is ever required to use AfC, and any autoconfirmed user can move a draft out of AfC space. If that user is the original creator, i see no grounds for objecting to such a move (it might be a problem if another editor moves it when the creator wanted to use AfC). In theory anyone could move it INTO AfC space, but I would object to that strongly, unless the creator had requested it. DES (talk) 19:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      It didn't seem to be in the NPP queue because I didn't see the toolbox pop up. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 23:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      After my edit here I added various tags and marked it as patrolled. DES (talk) 00:39, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Proposal to add a new checkbox and button to the decline process at Afc

      Reviewers and others, please weigh in at:

      Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/Helper script#Proposal to add a new checkbox and button to the decline process at Afc

      Thanks —Anne Delong (talk) 19:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Dealing with duplicates

      It sometimes happens that when a reviewer starts to review a draft, s/he finds that it has been cut&paste-moved to article space already. Our decline reason of duplicate doesn't really handle this well, it is set up for the different case when the AfC submitter has duplicated a previously existing article. A history merge would be the ideal result, but that takes an admin and may be more trouble than it is worth, particularly if there is no other editor to credit. Should these be tagged for G6 (housekeeping) speedy deletes? or just declined and left until they are deleted as stale? Or should we seek some other way of handling them? I don't favor a cross-namespace redirect for such, as one poster on WT:CSD suggested. DES (talk) 22:16, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      This has to do with my previous post too. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 23:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      If the article in Afc space has a significant part of the article's history, you could ask for a history merge between the two articles. Then there would only be one article.
      If it's just a few diffs by the same author as the one who moved it, that's not necessary. If the article in mainspace is unsourced or spam, it may be deleted, so it's sometimes good to wait a few days and see what happens. If the article survives, then the old one can be deleted as a G6 (housekeeping). If the article is deleted, the editor may come back to improve the Afc version. —Anne Delong (talk) 00:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      A much bigger discussion on this topic is happening at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#G13. In the past I have declined on the basis of exists, but now I am suggesting that we redirect to the article space from the AFC one. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:03, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Draft namespace

      Suggest we start thinking about the changes that will be required to start using the new draft namespace when it is launched. (See mw:Draft namespace.) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:50, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      according to bugzilla, draft is now being tested at (http://en.wikipedia.beta.wmflabs.org). I jsut went there and it seems that IP users and new Beta logins cannot yet create drafts. Or if they can, I don't see how. DES (talk) 18:49, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Deleting AFC submissions that were later duplicated by main space entries

      I have had a couple of CSD nominations declined because an AFC submission has subsequently been duplicated by a main space article. Which criteria should I be using? Hack (talk) 03:11, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Hack What CSD rationalle are you using? Why are there duplications? Was it a copy paste move? IMO, I'd let the submission linger as a Decline because duplicate and let the eventual drogue of G13 clean it up so that the creator can be directed to the existing article. Hasteur (talk) 03:35, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Hello, Hack. If the article in Afc was by a different user from the mainspace one, the usual process is to decline it as a duplicate. The message suggests to the editor that he/she should instead work on the mainspace article. By leaving the article in Afc, the person has time to move any useful content and references to the mainspace article, which also transfers the attribution of their work to that document. The six months before G13 eligibility should give lots of time for that to happen. That's presuming, of course, that there isn't some other pressing problem such as blatant advertising, negative BLP, attack page, etc. I have had success in nominating some of these under G6 (housekeeping) if I can report that the submitter has been editing the mainspace article and that there was no useful content to be moved. Also, sometimes I have contacted the submitter and asked it it's okay to delete, and then use G7 (author requests deletion) —Anne Delong (talk) 03:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      This seems like a pointless exercise in bureaucracy. There are often speculative AFC submissions created on non-notable sports people. When they meet our requirements, an article is usually created in main space. It seems strange that you would leave a poor quality AFC submission when a better version already exists in main space. If I place a comment to the effect that there is already a main space article, the clock is reset for another six months. Hack (talk) 04:46, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Hack, are you saying that it is normal practice for a editor from a sports Wikiproject to see a poorly written or incomplete Afc submission, and then instead of improving it, deliberately write a different article about the same topic? Or am I misunderstanding your last post? —Anne Delong (talk) 05:08, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      No, usually the editors creating the main space articles are unaware there is an AFC submission for the same subject. I forget the article but there was a main space article created for a footballer after two separate AFC submissions had been created. Because generally AFC contributions tend to be of a lower standard, there was nothing salvageable from either AFC submission. Hack (talk) 05:15, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Hack, in those cases what I have been known to do is to simply add a redirect to the article on the top of the page. I leave everything else there so that the author can move any information that may not be in the article and it leaves the afc submission declined template on the page which allows it to still categorize when eligible for the G13 queue. That is the best that can be done because there is no (and likely never will be) {{Db-redundant}}. Technical 13 (talk) 13:17, 15 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      I redirect to the main article - normally these days I find the duplicate is because the author has got fed up with the backlog and gone straight to mainspace instead. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:13, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      If it's an article that was well developed in Afc, it should probably be put back together with a historymerge, especially if there is more than one editor involved. —Anne Delong (talk) 19:43, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Ready/Not ready

      Articles like this have popped up when I push the {{AFC button}}. Is there a problem with the button or a problem with the banners on these submissions? ~KvnG 03:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Kvng The problem is that there was a Pending submission template at the very bottom of the page that qualified the submission to be landed on. I cleaned the submission so that the draft banner would be removed and the AFC banner at the bottom would be moved to the top. Hasteur (talk) 04:37, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      I assume I should treat other articles in this state in the same way. ~KvnG 13:59, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      That would be good, unless you want to outright review the submission due to the fact that the clean actually is executed as well. Hasteur (talk) 14:37, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      I would definitely also be reviewing. Accept and reject scripts seems to clean this up somewhat. I mostly wanted to be sure that I was not reviewing articles that were not actually ready for review. I will trust that the button does the right thing and review any article that shows a pending banner anywhere (potentially in addition to other banners). ~KvnG 15:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Moving article to WT:AFC after it is declined breaks the link from the user page message

      There is a problem when an article submitted to AfC from a userspace page is moved to WT:Articles for creation after it has been declined, like this: the link from the userpage message that says "If you would like to continue working on the submission, you can find it at... " no longer works, see this version (I have fixed this one manually). I don't understand the complex syntax of the template, and I would have expected the redirect to simply pass one through to the new location, but the actual result after User:Hsanchez6/Virtuous Records was moved to Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Virtuous Records, was a redlink to Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Hsanchez6/Virtuous Records. JohnCD (talk) 15:53, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      That is a weird thing to have happened. It could happen if the page were to be first moved to Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Hsanchez6/Virtuous Records and then to Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Virtuous Records, and the intermediate redirect was then deleted; however, I am the one who moved the page, and I am 99% sure that I didn't do that (although my brain is slowly turning to jello from working the G13 backlog), so how that incorrect link arrived on the page is a mystery. —Anne Delong (talk) 19:57, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      The syntax of {{Afc decline}} was changed not that long ago to render the link to the submission differently. Like John, I have no idea how that new syntax works, but I'm sure one of the script devs does. Hopefully they will chime in here soon Bellerophon talk to me 20:12, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Okay, this looks like a problem with the old {{AFC submission/location}} template. Interestingly enough, the edit you linked was me removing its usage whenever possible, due to bugs like this ;) I'm pinging a user who I know has worked on the borked template in the past to investigate a temporary fix -- new versions of the script (from <4 months ago IIRC) use the {{subst:Afc_decline/sandbox|full=User:Hsanchez6/Virtuous Records}} syntax, which alleviates this problem. Theopolisme (talk) 22:09, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      • While I understand the frustration such an issue can cause, Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/ should be going away shortly. Once the move to Draft: is in progress, I'll be going through re-writing most of all of those templates I'm sure. As for this particular case, I believe it is mostly just an issue of moves and missing/changed redirects causing a gap someplace but I don't have much time to investigate right now... I hope this explanation helps and happy editing! Technical 13 (talk) 23:05, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Don't forget the really old stuff

      Backlog from 21 to 28 days ago is cleared! Don't forget the older stuff. ~KvnG 23:36, 17 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Emerging discussion re Draft: namespace

      Please see and join the emerging discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Drafts#Deletion_and_Draft: regarding part of the potential usage of the Draft: namespace. Fiddle Faddle 19:21, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      "And so it begins..." Bellerophon talk to me 23:28, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Proposal to move the AfC project to the new Drafts namespace

      Now that the new Drafts namespace is live, I feel that it would be best to have the AfC drafts there as well. What should be the way we go about doing this? Any general thoughts? Ramaksoud2000 (Talk to me) 23:33, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      To Do:
      1. Change the WP:AFCH to support the Draft Namespace
        1. Support moving the content page and the talk page over
        2. Support cleaning both pages
        3. Support banners
      2. Change various bots that handle the AFC space
        1. HasteurBot
        2. AFC bots
      3. Modify templates related to AfC to take the path given.
      4. Move a few submissions over to the draft namespace. Give the user an option to opt into the testing.
      Here's a bare minimum of items that need to be adressed Hasteur (talk) 00:58, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      Please add a link to the location of the documentation for the new drafts namespace so that we can understand its purpose before commenting. —Anne Delong (talk) 02:14, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      It can be found at Wikipedia:Drafts. Ramaksoud2000 (Talk to me) 02:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      For Mediawiki, it is at mw:Draft namespace. Ramaksoud2000 (Talk to me) 02:29, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Okay, having read that, three things come to mind:

      • (1) I have tried several times to get a consensus that all of the articles submitted for review should be in one place. So far no luck. Why would this be any different? There is no point in making a change unless we all do it together.
      • (2) If the articles will now have their own talk page, this is going to cause a lot of fragmentation of discussions. How will we decide when to post as a comment on the submission, when to post on the article talk page, and when to post on the user's talk page? Maybe Afc comments should all be placed on the talk page, with a note on the article "A comment from a reviewer has been added to this submission's talk page on (date)". Making sure that the new editors see the comments will be more complicated.
      • (3) The Draft namespace will not be just for articles under review. How do we keep them separate, or do we? —Anne Delong (talk) 02:45, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Indeed, like Anne says: this needs to happen all together. In addition, some of my thoughts:

      • I think comments should now go to Draft_talk, that makes sense to me. This will require really posting comments to the talk page, and, again like Anne says, some sort of talkback/what-have-you.
      • A master list of currently running AFC bots should be created
      • All documentation needs to be rewritten for the new namespace, ideally in some sort of subpage area

      Above all, this needs to be gradual -- otherwise everyone will be completely confused. Theopolisme (talk) 03:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      Dr. Abdul Ruff Colachal

      Dr. Abdul Ruff Colachal Dr. Abdul Ruff Colachal, a renounced columnist in world affairs Hr writes mainly in English in many newspapers and non-print media portals. He edits "Foreign Policy Issues and " International Opinion"

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