Talk:List of first ladies of the United States

Clinton Dates?

According to the article, both Bill Clinton's wife and daughter were first ladies for his entire term. Is this correct? 206.53.196.113 (talk) 21:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Chelsea Clinton stood in for her mother occassionally when Mrs. Clinton could not attend something. As far as I know that happened for his entire term, just as Tricia Nixon stood in for Mrs. Pat Nixon for some Nixon administration events. Happyme22 (talk) 22:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I missed the part at the top of that table that said the people in that table acted as first ladies when the first lady couldn't. 206.53.197.24 (talk) 19:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Michelle Obama

User:Sugarcubez has suggested in this edit that there are personal motives behind Michelle Obama not being included on this list, namely that I don't like her. That quite an accusation to make, Sugercubez, when I've never expressed my opinion of Mrs. Obama on Wikipedia. In fact, the reason why I oppose Obama being included is simply because she is not first lady!! The introduction, literally the second sentence, in the article reads: "The first list includes only those persons who are recognized by the National First Ladies Library as a First Lady of the United States." Michelle Obama is not first lady, therefore she cannot possibly have been recognized by the NFLL as being one. Your motive behind favoring inclusion seems to be that it is "rude" to not include her name. That is not an encyclopedic reason rather it is your personal opinion and that holds no weight here. Laura Bush is still the first lady and will be until January 20, 2009. On that date at 12:00 noon EST, we can add Mrs. Obama to this list. --Happyme22 (talk) 18:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Sugarcubez made rude and unfounded comments, but Michelle Obama should be listed here. This same edit war was at List of Presidents of the United States whether to list Barack Obama, and the article is now fully protected. Consensus has been reached at Talk:List of Presidents of the United States to list Obama as the President-Elect separate from the main list. There is a clear distinction that Obama is not president yet, but he will be. This consensus has been applied with the same style to List of Vice Presidents of the United States. This article must be consistent with the others, and I believe that not listing Michelle Obama is a serious omission; the casual reader wants to see her listed, even if she is not First Lady yet. Reywas92^Talk 21:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Martha Jefferson

Why aren't Martha Jefferson Randolph, Emily Donelson, Sarah Yorke Jackson, Angelica Singleton Van Buren, Jane Irwin Harrison, Priscilla Cooper Tyler, Harriet Lane, Mary Arthur McElroy, Rose Cleveland, Mary Harrison McKee listed with the others? The non-spouses should get their own subsection. Dimadick (talk) 06:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I presume that is because the list that was added was completely uncited. Get some citations and then come on back. Happyme22 (talk) 23:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

this is not....

This is not a list of first ladies, it is a list of wives. It is fine to have a list of wives, but call it that. And here we should have only first ladies, which would include women chosen to serve in the role when a spouse was not available. Kingturtle (talk) 16:50, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

As the article says, According to the White House and the National First Ladies' Library, there have been forty-five First Ladies and forty-six First Ladyships. These other women chosen to serve in the role cannot be verified by reliably sources, while the White House and First Ladies' library, are RSes. Adding anyone else is likely to be WP:OR Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 16:59, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe there could be a 2nd chart of "Mistresses of the White House." It is a shame for these women to be footnotes. Kingturtle (talk) 17:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The confusion lies in that Mary Arthur McElroy is included on the Template:US First Ladies. Kingturtle (talk) 17:51, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Which Hillary portrait to use?

I've reverted the use of her Secretary of State portrait: File:Secretary Clinton 8x10 2400 1.jpg, since that comes well after her time as First Lady. Unfortunately, her official Simmie Knox First Lady portrait image was deleted some time ago, on grounds of not public domain, no fair use. That leaves either her official portrait as Senator, or one done in 1992, just before she became First Lady. I've chosen the 1992 one, since it's closer to the 'look' that she had during much of her time in that position. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:55, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the 1992 picture, because the picture shows her time as First Lady. miranda 19:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Portraits not Photographs

Anyone agree or disagree? I think that instead of photos, we have the official portraits (apart from Michelle Obama who hasn't got one!)

-Willwal Sunday 2nd Feb @ 7:25am —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:25, 2 February 2009 (UTC).

She has one now. miranda 19:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Correction of run-on.

Until Harriet Lane, the title "First Lady" was not used officially; And was not used at all before Dolley Madison, and even in her case it was only used in her eulogy. - someone would like to volunteer? miranda 19:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Martha Washington, and Anna Harrison never entered the White House.

George Washinngton was President before the White House was biult, and William Henry Harrison died before Anna Harrison could get to the White House. This needs to be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Perryparkhistory (talk • contribs) 12:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

List of First Ladies of the United States by longevity added to this article

I added the information from the above article into this one according to the result of a debate on that article. Since nothing had happened in half a year I thought it was about time to take action. I'm not sure, of course, if what I did was exactly what was intended but it certainly was a start. ;) --Krawunsel (talk) 22:55, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the information from the article for now. This is a WP:Featured list, and we must take precautions not to add stuff that would cause it to violate the WP:Featured list criteria. List of First Ladies of the United States by longevity is completely unsourced, and despite a notice at the top saying that AFD consensus was to merge it with this one, I don't actually see any sign of such at the AFD -- rather, it was a suggestion by one person that was not agreed upon by anyone else who took part in the discussion.

Most of the comments at the AFD was that the information was not encyclopedic, and to simply copy-pasta the tables doesn't make it any more encyclopedic, it just makes this article less encyclopedic. However, there may be valid reasons for adding birth date, death date, and age-at-entering-White House columns based on the AFD comments, but that should be discussed here, not on the talk page or AFD discussion of a different article. Matthewedwards :  Chat  03:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, there was a decision to do just what I did, so there's no sense in you removing the information again, even if you pelt me with ever so much stuff why it "shouldn't be done". Maybe you should first have read the debate I referred to. Anyway, the information is not "unsourced" but you can derive all of it from the respective articles on the Presidential spouses - if you don't find the task too tedious. And isn't blanking half a page usually referred to as vandalism? --Krawunsel (talk) 14:35, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I did read the debate you referred to. I didn't read a suggestion from anybody in the entire debate about merging the pages. The closest thing to that was the closing admin, User:Stifle, referring to User:Fiftytwo thirty about the "main list". Whether he meant this page or not is unclear. There is certainly no clear decision, and no consensus. Even if Stifle did mean merge, especially 10 months later, it doesn't mean that decision is set in stone.

I suggest you read Wikipedia:Verifiability thoroughly. It describes Wikipedia's Policy of referencing and citations. You may find it enlightening. With regards to your outrageous claim that the originating page isn't unsourced, then please show me the references. You can't. There aren't any. Yes, I find the task of visiting 49 other articles to verify the information here to be too tedious, and WP:CIRCULAR says I don't have to. It appears that you find it tedious too, though, for WP:PROVEIT says that the burden for adding references to any information added to an article lies with the person who added it, and if that isn't done it can be removed at any time. You shouldn't just dump loads of junk on articles and expect others to chase around after you cleaning up your mess. Currently the article is indeed "unsourced".

Wikipedia:Vandalism. That's another article you should read. The first line reads "Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia." So in answer to your question, no, removing unsourced material is not considered "vandalism" and you shouldn't toss accusations of it around, as that is a violation of our Wikipedia:Civility policy.

Finally, please follow the rules of Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. You boldly added the info. I reverted and began a discussion. Until that is resolved, please don't re-add it a third time. If necessary, we can ask for a Third opinion or open a RfC. Matthewedwards :  Chat  20:50, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Just to note, I did previously offer a compromise of adding date of birth and death columns to the table here, although I don't see why it's really necessary; as has been said at the AfD, their longevity isn't really that important. Matthewedwards :  Chat  21:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Independent view: if absolutely necessary, add birth and death dates. However, the most significant dates are (a) when they became first lady and (b) when the stopped being first lady. Of course, if first ladies have died in "office" it's significant, but the whole premise of a list of people married to the US President by longevity is flawed, no-one cares who lived the longest, they care who served the longest, who served with whom, and other more notable details. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:33, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Longevity of the First Lady is trivia IMO.—Chris!_c/t 21:23, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Van Buren & Arthur

Van Buren's wife & Arthur's wife died before their husbands became President. Why are they listed? GoodDay (talk) 21:42, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

I came here to ask the same question. It doesn't make sense. In the First Ladies coin issue from the U.S. Mint, they aren't included. --Coemgenus (talk) 22:33, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I've removed Martha Jefferson, Rachel Jackson, Hannah Van Buren & Ellen Arthur from the list. They never were US First Ladies. GoodDay (talk) 03:41, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

That's not how the White House or the National First Ladies' Library see it. I believe they should be added back. Mikehillman (talk) 17:54, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Helen Bones

Woodrow Wilson's cousin, Helen Bones, served as the First Lady during the period between the death of his first wife and his marriage to his second wife. Anyone know why she isn't included on the list? MK2 23 August 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.233.209 (talk) 19:13, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Sort appears broken

For each column except the first one. — MrDolomite • Talk 11:59, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The sort feature was just added by 108.41.131.117 (talk · contribs) on December 7 — and it never worked. It will take somebody who knows more about wikitables than I do to sort it out or get rid of it.  Glenfarclas  (talk) 23:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Sort works now. —Mikehillman (talk) 19:46, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Comments from WP:TFL review

Michelle Obama

The First Ladies of the United States are the women who have served as the hostess of the White House. The position is traditionally filled by the wife of the president of the United States, but, on occasion, the title has been applied to women who were not presidents’ wives, such as when the president was a bachelor or widower. She has her own staff, including the White House Social Secretary, the Chief of Staff, the Press Secretary, the Chief Floral Designer, and the Executive Chef. The Office of the First Lady is also in charge of all social and ceremonial events of the White House, and is a branch of the Executive Office of the President. Following Barack Obama's inauguration on January 20, 2009, his wife, Michelle Obama (pictured), became the forty-sixth official First Lady, succeeding Laura Bush, wife of former President George W. Bush. The first First Lady of the US was Martha Washington, married to George Washington. (Full list...)

Neelix (talk) 20:44, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment - major issue with sorting: DOB column not sorting at all. Date of marriage sorting all over the place. I wonder if that triple colspan for "First Lady" is messing it all up? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It's quite likely that that's the case. The tables were not sortable when it was promoted; in fact, sorting was only introduced in December 2011, almost 3 years after it was promoted. Matthewedwards :  Chat  02:55, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I've fixed the sorting. The triple colspan was a problem, but it was far from the only problem. Mikehillman (talk) 19:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment

• As the FLC nominator I'm not sure how proud of this page I still am at this point. There are definitely things I don't like about it now. The Lede sets out the scope of the article well: The First Ladies when they were First Ladies. Not before, not after, just during. Now, things that shouldn't have been added have been, and things that have been removed shouldn't have been. Not without discussion, at least.:

1. The images originally used were nearly all taken from either the White House or National First Ladies' Library, or were official portraits, and had all been checked. The majority have now been replaced, with no independent image check conducted.
2. The original columns were the #, photo and First Lady's name; date of marriage; President; Date of White House entry; and date they left. They've been renamed and added to since then, in part because of this AFD and this talk page discussion.

1. The date of entry/left White House columns were renamed to "Tenure began/ended" because not all were actually in the White House. That's fine.
2. Adding "husband" in parentheses to the "President" column is factually incorrect as many were not married to the President.
3. Their DOB is not important within the scope of this article. Their DOB had nothing to do with them becoming First Ladies and even if sortability worked, it wouldn't tell us how old they were when they became the First Lady. That is more relevant.
4. Their length of retirement is not important and not within the scope of the article. They were granted this position because of their husband/brother/whatever being voted into a specific position, not because of anything related specifically to them. Their tenure ended only because their husbands job ended, and the end of their retirement is based on what? The date they died, or the date they found another job? We don't know.
5. Date of Death. Only 3 or 4 died while they were still First Lady. They have been pointed out specifically in footnotes. What purpose does the DOD column serve for the 40 other women?

1. For heavens' sake, even the List of Presidents doesn't have a DOB, length of retirement or DOD.
2. Sortability is messed up on a number of columns that are date dependent.

I oppose this being on the Main Page in this state, and if the R in FLRC stood for "Review" rather than "Removal", I would have nominated this page there some time ago. These additions really needed discussing. Matthewedwards :  Chat  02:55, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Sortability is fixed, and it now contains the same columns as List of Presidents of the United States by age, plus "Date of marriage". Mikehillman (talk) 19:51, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Elizabeth Monroe

The link to her page is going to Andrew Johnson's wife. I would fix it, but I have no idea how to do this. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.231.34 (talk) 03:24, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Question

In the event of a woman becoming President of the United States, what would happen to this article? Would it need to be renamed to include the first First Gentleman? V_oBEDD 12:44, 18 February 2014 (UTC)