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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by KazanElia (talk | contribs) at 22:03, 28 February 2014 (→Consequent WP:RM 2014). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

POV template needs to be balanced

This template should be split into two different templates:

  1. A template which would cover subjects related to Palestinian nationalism
  2. A template which would cover the region of Palestine.

For anyone whom do not understand why this is necessary - try to imagine how you would feel if a similar template called "The region of Palestine and Jewish nationalism" would be added at the bottom of the same pages this template has been added to. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 19:43, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The template doesn't directly cover nationalism at the moment, so we can change the title if you like. To answer your question, I would welcome such other templates being put on relevant pages - there are a few of them which cover the topics you suggested: e.g. Template:Israel topics. This is a much needed navbox to cover all the topics related to Palestine. The concept of Palestine is complex and this template is intended to help users navigate a an easily confusing group of topics. Splitting it up will only ensure the confusion continues. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:58, 30 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Name change

Have changed the name of the template as per TheCuriousGnome above. Template name is now consistent with other similar templates (have added category). Given the complexity of the term "Palestine" (as evidenced by non-stop wikipedia debates by editors with differing viewpoints), this template attempts to appropriately covers all the common interpretations of the name to group the key articles covering every viewpoint. Oncenawhile (talk) 14:11, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Total remake

I invested a lot of work today on creating these two templates:

  1. Template:Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian people - covers the topics related to the Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian people (this template)
  2. Template:Historic region of Palestine topics - covers the topics related to the historical region of Palestine

I also renamed the template's name to a less confusing and more neutral name which specifies in more clarity the scoop of each subject matter

Hope you will appreciate my edits. Peace. TheCuriousGnome (talk) 06:19, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You behaviour is totally unacceptable. This is not how wikipedia works - consensus must be found before blanking whole articles and replacing them with your own version. Unfortunately I do not have time to find out what rules you broke with your behaviour right now - hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I can point it out.
Please note that I appreciate your work, and you should appreciate that of others. I am not going to try to remove your templates (at least not without proper discussion), and you should not try to remove the existing template unless you can find a proper consensus - an outcome I believe is highly unlikely (I have put it back here Template:Palestine topics). They can happily coexist as they help the reader in different ways. Oncenawhile (talk) 07:56, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merger

Moved to Template talk:Palestine topics § Proposed merger

Requested move 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Miniapolis 20:27, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Template:Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian people → Template:Palestinian territories topics otherwise to "Template:[Something] topics" – To match other "[Territory name] topics" template names in Category:Country and territory topics templates and its subcategories. CsDix (talk) 01:16, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Oppose - the topics are mostly related to PNA, some to State of Palestine, others to West Bank and Gaza; in any case this is not something which can be defined as Palestinian territories. What are Palestinian territories? - Occupied territories in 1967? Occupied areas today? Palestinian-controlled territories today? totally unclear.Greyshark09 (talk) 06:50, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Palestinian Authority defines "Palestinian territories" as "Liberated Palestinian territories", meaning those they currently control (areas A+B of WB, GS controlled by Hamas); international community related to Palestinian territories as "Palestinian-controlled territories", more or less in accordance with the Palestinian Authority stance.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:11, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, the PNA and international community conceders Area C and east Jerusalem to be part of the Palestinian territories. This template is about the Palestinian territories (including entities associated with the Palestinian territories such as the Palestinian National Authority and the State of Palestine) and the Palestinian people. We most certainly can define the Palestinian territories as the Palestinian territories. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I mean I'm thinking of Palestinian territories in the sense described in the Wikipedia article called Palestinian territories: "The Palestinian territories ... comprise the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip." So, the PNA would be one of the topics addressed within a "Palestinian territories topics" template. CsDix (talk) 10:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, should have read the request more carefully. Yes, it would be best to move as proposed. --BDD (talk) 17:35, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • COMMENT - you can't change the opening proposal on the fly, during the discussion - it makes it unclear who supports/opposes what. Initially the proposal was to move to "Palestinian territories and Palestinian people", now it's different from that. And that change was not announced here. There is no problem with the actual move to be to a different target from what was proposed (if, for example, all responds were "oppose, but I think XXXX will be better", then it gets moved to XXXX despite the opening proposal being for YYYY). My opinion is that "and Palestinian people" should remain, because this is an unique case and not some "general [territories] something template" (or whatever you call it). If that is removed, then some of the wikilinks in the template may have to be removed. Japinderum (talk) 07:06, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - i agree in general that it should be <X topics>, i disagree with the "Palestinian territories", which can refer to "occupied palestinian territories", "palestinian controlled territories" or "liberated palestinian territories (Hamas designation for Gaza). I think it should be kept "Palestinian National Authority topics", while another template soon should be created named "State of Palestine topics" in accordance with the recent change of status in UN and the following title change of Palestine in all UN institutions.Greyshark09 (talk) 20:23, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Theoretically they can be made distinct, but knowing what happens to edits about such topics in other articles it's dubious this can be actually achieved. Recent title change in the UN, however diplomatically important, is irrelevant to almost all wikilinks currently in the template, so that's not a good reason to make changes there. State of Palestine currently only claims, but doesn't have any control over the Palestinian territories - so what Oncenawhile proposes can be made only with big caution, that realistically won't be adhered to when editing in this politically-loaded topic. Japinderum (talk) 09:01, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You keep asserting that "Palestinian territories" is a vague and dubious term. I won't bother to repeat everything I said at Talk:Palestinian_territories#Considered_by_whom but, the long standing lead of Palestinian territories has described the PT as consisting of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and if there were any real dispute over that, the lead definition would have dawn far far more controversy, and would have done so a long time ago. the overwhelming majority of RS describe the PT as consisting of the west Bank and Gaza Strip [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]. You're previously assertions that PT can commonly refer to just Area's A and and B of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was rejected.
The Palestinian Territories consists of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, there may be valid reasons for a split, but PT being vague is not one of them. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 10:09, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
@Emmette, your above comment is a kind of loose and incorrect, because it was your proposal which was rejected - [12]. Don't try to make it the other way around (as i remember you even apologized for that incident).Greyshark09 (talk) 18:20, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Irreverent. The objection was to your assertion about the meaning of the term "Palestinian territories", it clearly states "[Greyshark09's] claim that the Pt term today is widely implemented not to the entire WB and GS, but specifically to the areas under PNA control is completely unsupported and easily refuted." Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:48, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What is irreverent?Greyshark09 (talk) 22:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Greysharks proposal isn't piratical, only two articles here are about the SOP (State of Palestine and International recognition of the State of Palestine) there's nothing to split. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:24, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are quiet several articles on SoP and more on "Palestine" which actually relate to SoP.Greyshark09 (talk) 14:21, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Only a few about SoP (All pages with titles containing State of Palestine), and if the PLO wants th keep celebrating the UN vote by blurring the lines between the SOP and PNA, it wouldn't be piratical for them to have separate infoboxes. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 14:36, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Of course my proposal is not piratical (piracy?)Greyshark09 (talk) 22:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - reminder - to date (2012) a Palestinian state still does not have sovereignty over the entire Palestinian territories. These types of templates (the state templates) should only contain the information related to the official governmental body and not information related to other non governmental organizations operating in the Gaza strip and the West Bank or information relating to the Jewish/Israeli settlements/organizations in the West Bank. When a final peace agreement would be reached between the Palestinian Authority and the State of Israel which would put an end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the PNA would become the official body governing a Palestinian sovereign state which will extend over MOST or ALL of the Palestinian territories (depending on the final agreement reached), therefore, in my opinion it would definitely be more correct to either use the name "Palestinian Authority" OR "Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian people". TheCuriousGnome (talk) 14:08, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will ask your clarification - do you agree to name this template "Palestinian National Authority topics", and perhaps in the future (when relevant) create another template "State of Palestine topics" (per my suggestion above)?Greyshark09 (talk) 18:14, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It will take some time to build a list of articles, but it is inevitable. UNICEF also changes the Palestinian designation to "State of Palestine" [13].Greyshark09 (talk) 22:07, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Government, Security, and Politics sections deal with mostly with the Palestinian National Authority, but otherwise this template deals mostly with the Palestinian territories and to a lesser extent the Palestinian people. How about renaming this but with no prejudge against spiting a Palestinian National Authority template off from this one? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 02:50, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought about your oppose some more and I'm confused. How would naming this to "Palestinian Territories" cause it to include non governmental organizations? All the other Category:Country and territory topics templates use the name of their respective Countries or territories yet they don't have non governmental organizations listed.
  • Comment I just made a change to the template. I added "PNA" to links that deal with the PNA rather then the Palestinian territories or people in general. This, aside from making it more organized and making it clearer as to what these articles deal with, might also serve as a compromise for some of the arguments to split this, especially Oncenawhile's, and might address TheCuriousGnome's concerns. In the process I had to replace "Palestinian National Authority" with "Palestinian territories" in the header, because otherwise the "PNA"'s I added would be confusing, but most of these articles deal with the Palestinian territories or people in general rather then the PNA specifically anyway. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:02, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • That change was reverted not because of an objection but because of no consensus. The discussion had gotten rather stuck so I was trying to implement a possible comprise using WP:BRD. If there would have been objections the objector would have reverted and then the objection could have been discussed, and if no one objected to it we would have had a new consensus, but the "no consensus" revert sabotaged that. Anyway here's my version, anyone object to it. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 10:28, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Or this version which includes "Palestinian National Authority" in the herder. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 10:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Onceanawhile never said opposed the move, he said that he supported splitting the template. Your oppose is based on the fringe view that "Palestinian territories" is a vauge and dubious ther, which has been rejected by 6 editors (including me). That leaves one valid oppose.Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 22:18, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You sound desperately obsessed over-excited, which doesn't help you.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:24, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I should have said "your assertion" instead of "fringe view" that was a bit uncivil of me, but "You sound desperately obsessed, which doesn't help you" is a blatant personal attack, how could you possibly think that it was an appropriate or constrictive thing to say? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, i should have said "overexcited" instead of "obsessed". But considering our long relationship, i felt much more friendly with yourself to use some slang words.Greyshark09 (talk) 07:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"You sound desperately over-excited, which doesn't help you." is still a personal attack, inappropriate, and unconstructive. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:46, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Don't think so.Greyshark09 (talk) 08:04, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "everything now converges into SoP" - quite untrue if in everything you include PLO or oPt. Only some PNA institutions may merge into SoP, it still not clear what/how/when. The "Palestinian territories" continue to be under Israel occupation, so there are many separate articles about them, distinct from the political-related SoP and PNA. Japinderum (talk) 11:40, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is a clearly political template.Greyshark09 (talk) 12:03, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a Country and territory topics templates, it's scope is most certainty not limited to politics and government. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 12:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The political template is {{Politics of Palestine}}, this is a country/territory topics template, so it should have the name of a territory, not an administrative origination. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 11:40, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Consequent WP:RM 2014

Template:Palestinian National Authority and the Palestinian people → template:State of Palestine topics – Per outcome of previous discussion and in order to be in line with "template:state topics", but not to overlap template:Palestinian diaspora, it is proposed to rename this one to template:State of Palestine topics. Relisted. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:13, 20 February 2014 (UTC) GreyShark (dibra) 19:22, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Relisting comment: There were a lot of participants in the previous RM discussion, but not many this time. I hope that a relisting will bring more input, to give a better chance that the outcome will represent a broad-enough consensus to be stable.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:13, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have listed this discussion on WP:CENT. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are fully entitled to your view, and I am sure we all respect your opinion, but do be aware that your comment above is far more WP:POV than any proposal on this page. The bland and unqualified statement "there is no Palestinian State" simply won't hold water in an encyclopaedia that has a State of Palestine article, or in a world where the great majority (70%) of the world's nations recognise the existence of the state you deny. With respect, what we need here is legitimate discussion, leading to consensus, not more personal POV. Timothy Titus Talk To TT 15:50, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Except that it's not. Part of it relates to the State of Palestine (including the link to State of Palestine) but a good portion of the template relates to history, culture and media which would be covered regardless of the political recognition given the the SoP. There's nothing wrong with a template that specifically covers the politics and functionality of the SoP but this template isn't it. This relates to Palestine topics in general, which is why Template:Palestine topics is a good title. Stalwart111 05:56, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The other benefit, of course, is that it allows Template:State of Palestine to be kept free for a template specifically related to the State of Palestine and directly related topics. Stalwart111 05:42, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose: While I acknowledge that "State of Palestine" has sufficient international backing that it doesn't violate NPOV, I think that "Palestine topics" is more NPOV and thus preferable. Strongly agree that current title is inaccurate and overly wordy. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 20:22, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your vote then is more of a weak support because you're just proposing Palestine topics, however Palestine wouldn't be as precise as State of Palestine. KazanElia (talk) 22:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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