Talk:The Holocaust

Edit request: German euthanasia ("Action T4") until August 1941, then Jewish genocide ("Holocaust")

Could a registered editor please replace the following confusing paragraph in the lead:

From 1941 to 1945, Jews were systematically murdered in one of the deadliest genocides in history, which was part of a broader aggregate of acts of oppression and killings of various ethnic and political groups in Europe by the Nazi regime.[7] Every arm of Germany's bureaucracy was involved in the logistics and the carrying out of the genocide. Other victims of Nazi crimes included ethnic Poles, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, other Slavs, Romanis, communists, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses and the mentally and physically disabled.[8][9]

with this chronological correction:

Prior to the Jewish genocide, mentally and physically disabled Germans and Austrians had been secretively murdered from 1939 until 1941 under the Action T4 programme. When Action T4 was halted in August 1941 under pressure from von Galen, the personnel and the techniques were soon re-deployed to Poland for implementing industrial-scale killings in mobile death vans, and for establishing extermination camps with gas chambers for the mass murder of Jews. Other victims after August 1941 included ethnic Poles, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, other Slavs, Sinti and Romani (gypsies), communists, homosexuals, and Jehovah's Witnesses.[8][9]

And on a completely different matter, could this careless and unsourced sentence please be removed:

"Germany's invasion of Poland in September 1939 increased the urgency of the "Jewish Question".

I am sure it was not the Wikipedia author's intention to sound like a Nazi, but unfortunately that is what it sounds like. Alternatively, please put the sentence in quotation marks and cite a source, to make completely clear that it is not a Wikipedia point of view. Thank you.

konzerne - beispiele

BMW - Quandt und die Göbbels Connection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpQpgd_EeWY

Opel General Motors - David James Mooney , Vergasungs-Lkw Opel Blitz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSflzubxN5g

Volkswagen - Gründung durch Adolf Hitler, vollständige Gründung und Kontrolle des Konzerns unter Adolf Hitler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc34hc8tXO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qd1GD9iXzo

Deutsche Bahn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVLc7TwlBcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTjAjMRIyOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5EGpR4we1c speditions-firma, kz deportationen

Siemens zug-bau-konzern, elektrische züge seit 1879, Betreiber des KZ Auschwitz-Aussenlager-Bobrek, strom-zaun von Auschwitz, baute die züge, mit denen kz-insassen deportiert wurden ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLZtOzHblA8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jptb4v1aBGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUikwfkxUyQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobrek_concentration_camp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPL1iq946Pg http://www.projektzeitlupe.de/de/ernadevries/essays/gfx/siemens.jpg http://www.projektzeitlupe.de/de/ernadevries/essays/pdf/Das%20Siemens-Lager%20in%20Ravensbrueck.pdf

BASF, Bayer, Agfa, Aventis-Sanofi, Höchst, Kodak, I.G. Farben - chemie-konzern, arznei-mittel-konzern, zyklon b hersteller, präparat be1039(mengele experimente) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQPHEh0SsoA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.G._Farben https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben#World_War_II_overview http://www.relay-of-life.org/images/speech_20071114/image12.jpg http://www.relay-of-life.org/images/speech_20071114/image15.jpg https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ig%20farben%20managers&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=ig%20farben%20managers&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk= http://www4ger.dr-rath-foundation.org/images/igmanagers%5B1%5D.jpe

Flick - Der Flick-Konzern ist an der Errichtung des KZ Auschwitz beteiligt gewesen ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO8vmMIdUxQ https://cover.archinform.net/m/9783570551431.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Friedrich_Flick_Nuremberg.JPG/220px-Friedrich_Flick_Nuremberg.JPG

Thyssen-Krupp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JefT_xV7MRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP5CWO0hWUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE5YbGJnr9U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8AdSHKywEU

Dr. Oetker - Gründer sind NSDAP Mitglieder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NzAjv76Z5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naSs7SxQqAI

Messerschmidt GmbH - wurde von Bölkow, später Airbus aufgekauft https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nNdDkyiANo

... Nasa - Raumfahrt-Konzern , Wernher von Braun, V2 Rakete https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELE1q1JzMKs

Daimler

Adidas Puma - gegründet bei der olympiade 1936 von adolf dassler und rudolf dassler, betreibt zwangsarbeits-lager in 3.welt gebieten ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4e2t0W2uIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i2ZUnBGLiQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EApi8iKZV9k

Metro Group AG - Gründer des Konzerns ist Dr. Beisheim , LSSAH Mitglied https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bESepvE3uvw

IBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOJwA6NGZTE https://ironboltbruce.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/ibm_holocaust.jpg?w=510 https://2012patriot.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/ibm-2.jpg?w=450&h=676 https://www.amazon.de/Holocaust-Verstrickung-Weltkonzerns-Verbrechen-Nazis/dp/3549071302/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1468002485&sr=8-2&keywords=edwin+black

Deutsche Bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bank#1933.E2.80.931945

Continentale AG Varta - Hersteller von Reifen im 2. wk, betreiber vom kz stöcken, kz limmer Standard Oil Monsanto Bertelsmann - Verbreiter von "Mein Kampf", auch nach 1945 hat der berstelsmann konzern "mein kampf" verbreitet, Bertelsmann besitzt die RTL-Group und verbreitet haus eigene Propaganda

Die Medien-Konzerne UFA

Wiesenhof - KZ ähnliche Massentierhaltung

Aventis Sanofi - kaufte den Zyklon-B-Konzern Höchst auf

Hugo Boss - HJ uniforms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_8A9R_cafQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb2dDP3ohGE

Chase National Bank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXh7HfEFhik

RWE, Vattenfall, Eon EnBW - lieferte den Strom für elektrische Zäune und Scheinwerfer in KZs http://www.kz-auschwitz.de/pix/photos/e_zaun09.jpg

OSRAM - Scheinwerfer in KZs

Telefunken - Hersteller von dem Propaganda-Radio, Die "Göbbels-Schnauze" genannt

Lufthansa

Arcor, Vodafone, Mannesmann http://www.gettyimages.de/detail/nachrichtenfoto/joseph-goebbels-29-10-1897-politician-nazi-party-nachrichtenfoto/548180151

AfD for Holocaust historian

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniel Romanovsky I started the original article and voted neutral on the AfD. The deleters actually have a good case based on WP policy, but something doesn't feel right. Thanks.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 15:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

The article ended up deleted.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 02:41, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Unsure if I agree with that close, based merely on Google scholar cites, which guidelines say we should be cautious about using. Irondome (talk) 14:37, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I agree. There is a deletion review process. I don't think I should initiate it since I wrote the article in the first place.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 15:38, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

By all means, User:Thoughtmonkey, please initiate a deletion review since it was you who wrote the article. There were eight "keep" !votes there, and only five "delete" !votes. Not exactly a snowball closure. Meanwhile, the article was entirely missing the fact that Danila [Daniel] Romanovsky was a a long-time Soviet dissident (refusenik in Russian) politically active under the Soviet system. Seminars on history of Jews were held in his Leningrad apartment in the 1980s. People like him were dying in staged car accidents. Please find out if there's a possibility of developing that part of his bio better this time.[1] Poeticbent talk 18:01, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I will go ahead and start the review.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2016 August 3 Thoughtmonkey (talk) 18:48, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Strongly agree with Poeticbent's additional points. 8-5 in addition do not a consensus make. A poor close imo. Irondome (talk) 19:40, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

In commenting on Jujutacular’s puzzling decision (to me) to delete the Romanovsky piece, I said that I would drop the issue and move on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jujutacular#top But I am going back on that decision to support Thoughtmonkey and Poeticbent as they are reiterating the points I made on Jujutacular’s talk page. I might add that as a member of a society which makes its decisions by consensus, I do not recognise Jujutacular’s idea of consensus which overrides a majority of votes. Furthermore, maybe the notability guidelines have a role (but even here not the only role) in deciding to create an article, but as I have already said, I am uncomfortable deleting a referenced article which contains useful info. Heavens know that I have come across many a WP article which seems to me trivial, but I have never thought that they should be deleted. That smacks of book burning. Joel Mc (talk) 09:34, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it has anything to do with hostility toward Mr Romanovsky, at least I hope not. It seems like the deletionists here are more into WP as a Who's Who for professors.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 19:28, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

• I merged the article here: The_Holocaust_in_Belarus#Interviews_of_witnesses. I hope that works out. Thoughtmonkey (talk) 20:05, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I am following the principle of "Let the Wookiee win". Thoughtmonkey (talk) 18:01, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

• I'm pleased, and surprised, that someone stepped up and reopened the AfD. It's still not decided.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 14:00, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Now closed as "no consensus", which means keep without hurting deletionists' feelings.Thoughtmonkey (talk) 04:08, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

More than 11 million?

Is the high estimate of 11 million based on Simon Wiesenthal's figure? I came across a calculation Roberto Muehlenkamp made where 14 million victims is another possible figure:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.at/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims-part-2.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8388:502:3D80:AC82:C466:B90C:A932 (talk) 16:21, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

That's a blog, and not an RS. ALL major historical studies put the figure between about 4.5 to 5.2 million. Nazi Germany was stopped before the already abominable death toll reached that level. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.169.37.15 (talk) 00:23, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Should it be called "The Holocaust"?

There were holocausts in Armenia in World War I and Ukraine in the 1930s. (IssacSterling (talk) 15:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC))

Those have different names entirely - Armenian Genocide and Holodomor. GAB^gab 15:53, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

They have been widely called the Armenian Holocaust and the Ukrainian Holocaust. (IssacSterling (talk) 15:57, 11 October 2016 (UTC))

This has been raised before in the past, consensus (both here and in academia) is that "The Holocaust" refers to the subject of this article. Check the archives. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:36, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Article focus

I don't think the article should focus on Jews as much as it does currently. Jews were a tragic and disproportionate portion of those killed in the holocaust, but I think the focus of the article should be on the broader (11 million) scope of the holocaust instead of a subset (6 million for purposes of inclusion and getting the complete picture. an example of how this would be implemented in practice would be as such. Where the article currently reads: "The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[3] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "the catastrophe"), was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about six million Jews.[4] The victims included 1.5 million children[5] and represented about two-thirds of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe.[6] Some definitions of the Holocaust include the additional five million non-Jewish victims of Nazi mass murders, bringing the total to about 11 million. Killings took place throughout Nazi Germany, German-occupied territories[7] and territories held by allies of Nazi Germany." I propose it should go more like: The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[3] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "the catastrophe"), was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about eleven million people.[relevant citation number] The victims included 1.5 million children[5], six million Jews[4], and represented about two-thirds of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe.[6] Some definitions of the Holocaust focus exclusively on the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust. Killings took place throughout Nazi Germany, German-occupied territories[7] and territories held by allies of Nazi Germany.

I will admit, the reason for my disposition towards the more complete, less Jew-focused version is due to personal experience, having personally never in my academic or personal life seen the Holocaust be used to refer exclusively to Jewish victims, it seems rather exclusionary to put such emphasis on them.