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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mrs. Jan Cola (talk | contribs) at 01:09, 29 April 2017 (→‎Wikitribune, US Net Neutrality repeal and EU Copyright Reform: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

    Wikitribune

    See plan: www.wikitribune.com. Wikid77 (talk) 22:47, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi Jimbo. Saw this about Wikitribune. Sounds interesting, and here's to success. So is this going to be related to Wikipedia in any? Functional or organizational, or even cross-pollination of any sort? Also wondering what this might mean for WikiNews. Herostratus (talk) 01:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Note how a major weakness of Wikipedia has been the restriction against "investigative journalism" as against going to the scene and interviewing the participants. While WP has the benefit of being "encyclopedic" (all-encompassing), beyond the shallow limit of focus on simply what's new, the WP editors are not allowed to interview participants to get answers to the big gaps in coverage of a recent topic. Hopefully, Wikitribune could quickly answer those questions by interviewing key people or analysing primary sources to give quotable conclusions as answers to fill gaps in WP's coverage of a topic. -Wikid77 (talk) 02:58, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    That is a feature, not a bug. Resolute 13:52, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Of this encyclopedia, not a feature of news gathering in general. Now news gathering has lots of bugs of its own, but let's not pretend that the same model works everywhere. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:59, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course. But I was clearly responding to the complaint about how unfair it is that we don't allow original research on Wikipedia. Resolute 15:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I ran into it here. I'll wish you luck as well. Smallbones(smalltalk) 01:13, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    And the BBC linked to https://www.wikitribune.com/
    This does remind me of a suggestion I gave to you several months ago - that news media should have a delayed CC-BY-SA license, say delayed by a week or a month. There would obviously be a benefit to Wikipedia, but I think it would have a benefit to the Wikitribune as well. Knowing that more info can very easily be imported from the WTrib after a short period, WPedia editors will likely quote WTrib and cite it as one of their first choices of sources, so (after a period to see if it establishes itself as a reliable source) there will be lots of cites and links to the WTrib in WPedia. I hope that fits in with your business plan. Smallbones(smalltalk) 02:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I like the concept of a delayed CC-BY-SA license. The delay is a detail, albeit important - I'd lean toward a month.--S Philbrick(Talk) 02:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    WikiTribune is CC-BY licensed prose,[1] compatible with Wikinews's CC-BY v2.5 license,[2] which means that WikiTribune-prose-content is *already* compatible for direct import into enWiki as I understand it.... Scroll down to the adapter's chart;[3] enWiki is CC-BY-SA v3 or v4 (plus a bit of GFDL sometimes and some fair use imagefiles and quotations and such). So there is no need for WikiTribune content to be proprietary-and-then-CC-BY-SA-after-a-delay, because it is already libre-licensed CC-BY from the beginning — provide attribution via a hyperlink to www.wikitribune.com, and properly note you are copying therefrom in your edit-summary, and you can put the WikiTribune bodyprose directly into an enWiki article (WP:COMPLIC). The more 'interesting' question is whether, like CC-0 Wikidata, there will be an attempt to pull Wikipedia.org-based prose into WikiTribune news-pieces, since I don't think the licenses permit such actions? But then, I also don't think the licenses permit Wikidata to pull what they do from Wikipedia :-) 47.222.203.135 (talk) 00:57, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd be interested to know how Wikitribune differs from WikiNews, which I think most people would accept has been a failure. Prioryman (talk) 03:08, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    The primary difference seems to be that they're actually employing people to write articles. Jc86035 (talk) Use {{re|Jc86035}}
    to reply to me     13:58, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Not sure where to report this, but at the bottom of the "wikitribune.com" page, it says "info@wikitirbune.com", which is improperly spelled. Master of Time (talk) 03:38, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Yeah, I think that will be fixed momentarily.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Hi everyone! I'll post more later - still pretty swamped and I was up late last night for the launch. To answer some quick questions - Wikitribune will be licensed CC-BY so that it is compatible with Wikinews, and so I hope that will be helpful for them. It will involve a staff of paid journalists working side-by-side with community members in a way that, as is the nature of these things, will have to worked out socially over time. Some of the news reports have made it seem like journalists would write and community members can suggest edits, but obviously I'm more radical than that. I think the best translation of how I see the 'controls' mechanism into MediaWiki language is 'flagged revisions' - i.e. anyone can edit, but trusted community members (who might or might not be staff, it doesn't matter) approve. Wikitribune is completely independent of everything else - a new thing I'm starting. As such, in general in the future, questions about it will be best suited for somewhere there. (Just as I hardly ever answer questions about Wikia here.) But obviously it's good to talk about it here as well for now. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    One science writer wrote the following: "Any effort to fight fake news is noble and should be applauded. But, if Mr. Wales believes his new venture will be the solution to fake news, it will fall short for at least four reasons." (italics in original)
    —Wavelength (talk) 12:50, 25 April 2017 (UTC) and 15:03, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    WOW !!!'Very cool, Jimbo. All the best wishes. Nocturnalnow/Alzheimer's victim

    Why .com and not .org? (I realize it doesn't intrinsically make much of a difference, but the perception of the site would be somewhat different.) Jc86035 (talk) Use {{re|Jc86035}}
    to reply to me     13:58, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    This is very interesting, and seems like it has a lot of potential. I know there are many specifics that haven't yet been worked out, but I look forward to learning more and potentially getting involved. A few questions jump immediately to mind. Starting with the easiest one:

    1. I'm assuming the presentation of the site will not be via wiki. Will it be edited as a wiki before being published?
    2. Over time, tensions can emerge in volunteer communities when a small group of people do similar work to everyone else but are paid for it. It sounds like, in this case, it's not the same as paying someone to edit Wikipedia alongside volunteers, but rather paying someone to do the bulk of the work, so it may not be an issue. Nonetheless, there will almost certainly be journalists, writers, other professionals, and amateurs who dedicate extensive time to this project without pay, and tensions will almost certainly emerge. Have these dynamics between paid and unpaid contributors been the subject of much discussion yet, or will they be worked out between the journalists and volunteers themselves without structural/central intervention?
    3. The site is supported by donors, like Wikipedia, but with Wikitribune people who donate have some power. According to The Guardian, "Those who donate will become supporters, who in turn will have a say in which subjects and story threads the site focuses on." The selection of what to cover is an awfully big part of the journalistic process. What is to prevent an interest group from donating many small amounts from multiple accounts in order to influence news coverage/selection? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:00, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Rhododendrites I think Jimbo addresses one of your questions here ..."paid journalists working side-by-side with community members in a way that, as is the nature of these things, will have to worked out socially over time". Nocturnalnow/Alzheimer's victim
    Another error - near the top of the page it says "Supporting Wikitribune means ensuring that that journalists only write articles based on facts that they can verify." That's one "that" too many. 51.140.123.26 (talk) 14:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fantastic!!! Its about fuckin' time that the public gets to see and judge for themselves the credibility of the actual sources of the most important information and news that comes our way. Many of the "so called" journalists who work for establishment media have been able to throw out any kind of bullshit and pro- or anti- personal, corporate, or governmental spin/propaganda and justify it with "our sources tell us" or "my sources tell me" or "off the record sources confirm" or "sources suggest" or "my military sources say its likely" or even "anonymous sources reveal" and an entire book of other similar "hide the source" phraseology when they publish their biased bullshit. As far as Woodward and Bernstein go, who gives a flyin' fuck what they think...they had one good story 45 years ago and have not done a fuckin' thing since except blatantly puff up or degrade various politicians with their personal opinions and write a bunch of biographies, imo.Nocturnalnow/Alzheimer's victim
    @Nocturnalnow:. Well, quite; thanks for that. — O Fortuna semper crescis, aut decrescis 15:08, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Somewhat along the lines of what Rhododendrites asked. How are you going to stop the Banc De Binarys and Burger Kings of the world from inserting their whoppers and putting in hidden advertisements? It looks like the journalists would in many cases have the final say on publishing so it should be easier in WTrib than in WPedia. But it's best to get these things straight at the beginning. How are you going to stop hidden ads? Smallbones(smalltalk) 14:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Like others here, I also saw the Guardian article, and showed it to my husband, who is a journalist. His response was, "... but, how will that work? Like, if I was writing for them, would random people be able to edit my article? Change the facts? Rearrange the presentation? I wouldn't like that and I don't think any professional journalist would." ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 14:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    That's cool, take note of Jimbo's use of the word "radical" above.. status quo and radical are maybe mutually exclusive. Nocturnalnow/Alzheimer's victim
    My own take on this, is that the Watergate scandal and others would never have been exposed today because news papers can no no longer afford investigative reporters. Good investigative reporter got a good salary and generous expenses in order to for them to have resources and time to dig up the truth. In this modern age of the internet, much news is free thus starving newspapers of the revenue required for this work. Result, news publishing has to resort to printing much faux news to in order to sell copy ( after all the have to make a living). Next: How does good journalist go about digging up the truth? They in essence ask John and Jane Doe. Wikitribune provides a route whereby that J & J's of this World (the people who know) can provide information about malfeasance directly; which as a spin off, provides the Checks & Balances to keep our society on on an even keel. Of course in theory this idea will never work but it might in practice. Aspro (talk) 14:48, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Aspro, great critical thinking comment and reasoning, but I think this idea is an absolute slam dunk winner in theory as well as in practice. The people are literally starving for a source of news and information that they can trust and trace back to its origin, just like we can now trace back where a Tuna was caught from a number on the can. I think the millennials especially will have Jimbo's new creation as their "go to app" for news. This is the best news(pun) for humanity I've seen since I can't remember when. Nocturnalnow/Alzheimer's victim
    Thankyou for those kind words Nocturnalnow/Alzheimer's victim. Am sure also, that many will see a mountain of issues preventing this project sailing forth. Yet to quote Linus Torvalds: "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow” Aspro (talk) 19:14, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    My impression was that Wikinews wasn't killed from the bottom, but from the top, by having stories rejected until the contributors lost interest. So Wikitribune might or might not go the same way, depending - deletionists will kill Wiki-anything if given the chance.
    I think a great opportunity for Wikitribune would be if they would actually let Wikipedia or other volunteers do proofreading and more advanced fact checking, at least where it comes to scientific issues. I think we have to go with volunteers--my distinct impression is that the very last professional proofreader and/or factchecker in the entire mainstream media probably took early retirement in the 90s... Wnt (talk) 21:14, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Help?

    Hello Jimbo. Read the Guardian story – very interesting venture. Would be glad to help (retired print journalist with 30-odd years' experience; active on WP since '04). Sca (talk) 15:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Great - can you send me an email? I'd love to talk. Actually, I'll try to send you an email now.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:07, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Reliability

    Hi Jimbo. Would you say a goal of Wikitribune is to have a reliability level such that we could source Wikipedia articles from Wikitribune? Mr Ernie (talk) 15:47, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, for sure. I mean, we accept all manner of - in my view - questionable tabloid newspapers as sources, at least in limited ways. If we can't meet at least that kind of minimal level of credibility, the whole exercise is a bit pointless.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:22, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Good question. Even WP is not regarded as a RS for citations in other WP articles. But if Wikitribune comes to be read, analyzed and quoted by other sources, then I think we may be permitted to quote from those independent source – In line with existing WP guidelines. We can not allow a positive feed-back system, like when a microphone picks up its own audio from a speaker and produces a howl. Aspro (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Interview on Wikinews

    Jimmy, when this is close to launch, would you be interested in talking about it at Wikinews? Thanks. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, totally.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:22, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    'Community members'

    Jimbo I'm curious to know what you mean by "community members," whether that has been hashed out or determined. Who selects them. Who they are. Chiefly whether they will be anonymous. Anonymity is great for Wikipedia but it spawns all kinds of abuses, and if you don't watch out you'll become a conduit for fake news, corporate spin, and all kinds of garbage. Also I am not quite clear as to how this differs from conventional journalism, which utilizes laypeople as sources and tipsters. It is, however, the function of journalists to write and report the news. How will this differ? Are you opening up the process to laypeople? How will you do that? If I were a journalist, why would I want to participate in a process in which amateurs are an integral part of the process? What would I gain? Wouldn't it impede my work to have to cope with meddling by untrained, potentially biased people? Just idly curious. Coretheapple (talk) 21:13, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    A lot of questions! Let me try to say a few words to answer a few of them, and I apologize if I overlook something.
    As this is a ground up new venture there are a lot of open questions, and as is my usual style, I'll be open to dialogue about it. However, my instinct is that anonymity is not consistent with quality journalism. Anonymous sources can be legitimate - with a lot of caution and caveats. But for the actual journalists (whether staff or volunteer) to be completely anonymous strikes me as problematic.
    I do envision opening up the process to "laypeople" yes. If you are a journalist, why would you want to participate? Well, the flood of job applications I got today (my assistant is bewildered as to how we are going to respectfully process them all) suggests that lots of journalists are not officious jerks who would refuse to work well with thoughtful community members. :) Seriously, the view that community members are primarily best described by words like "meddling", "untrained", "biased" seems contrary to my long experience. Yeah, some are like that, but the great ones aren't. What I would expect is that a lot of people who do not want to pursue journalism as a career (perhaps sadly because the payscale is much lower than it should be) would like to help out with it, to lend expertise in the process, etc. Maybe I'm wrong but I think great people will want to be community members, and great people will want to have jobs assisting and working with them. Time will tell.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:22, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Think that the World Wide Web has turned out to be destructive technology to the existing news publishers. It has wipped the carpet from under their feet, leaving us with mostly faux news and churnalism. JW's proposal looks as if we can move into the 21st Century technological age and bring back factual news reporting of yester year at the same time. Aspro (talk) 00:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Jimbo this is an interesting venture, I'm not trying to be a sourpuss, but I wonder how this system is going to work with hot-button issues. I've found that "hot button issues" on Wikipedia can include pretty much anything. But right now I would put my finger on all the ones that you see in arbcom. Israe/Palestine is an example. One person's bias in that area is another person's truth. There are narratives, there are various ways of viewing any given subject. But yes, in that or any given field you will get plenty of applications. What you want to consider (to paraphrase Groucho Marx) is "would I want to hire people who would want to join this club?" Coretheapple (talk) 00:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Сonflict of interest (Wikinews vs. Wikitribune)

    I see a very serious conflict of interests. This harms Wikimedia projects and our community. In my opinion, you must leave any positions associated with the Wikimedia Foundation. Thank you. --sasha (krassotkin) 08:18, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    I don't see this at all. Imagine you thought that Commons admins were much too strict in their interpretation of copyright law and decided to form a new website NPCommons where people could upload freely licensed photos that would not be allowed on Commons. Would founding this website, which could be considered to be competing with Commons disqualify you from doing anything on Commons, Wikipedia, or WMF? I don't think that most people would answer "yes". I certainly don't see any rules about the matter.
    I would imagine that Jimbo has already talked to the ED and Board about this to see if they have any objections. My guess (and all of this is just guessing) is that they said "no, of course not." The free culture movement is all about freedom and does not require an exclusive oath of fealty to a single project that you work on. Smallbones(smalltalk) 14:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I can see a possible conflict or perhaps the appearance of one if this news project is structured as a nonprofit, and if there is a conflict related to fundraising for that project vs. fundraising for this one. Coretheapple (talk) 18:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    The interesting question is whether the Wikimedia Foundation has developed enough talent to not need Jimbo. I don't think it has, besides, we have nothing to gain and lots to lose by losing Jimbo. As far as fundraising goes, for whatever reason, we are on an amazing uptrend which shows no signs of stopping anytime soon...plus I think WikiTribune will pick up a lot of donations from totally different demographics. Everything is beautiful:) Nocturnalnow/Alzheimer's victim
    • Come to think of it I do see a potentially serious conflict, but only if succeeds. If it does, it could bleed off experienced and valued volunteers from the "mother ship," Wikipedia. But again, only if it succeeds and only if it provides volunteers with the same experience, such as it is, as editing Wikipedia. The same.... I dunno. Why do I edit Wikipedia? It's a question I've been asking myself a lot lately. Coretheapple (talk) 22:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Most likely Wikitribune creates synergy at wikilinks: Imagine all the details published (or snippets quoted) back into Wikipedia from reports written by Wikitribune. Meanwhile, if Wikitribune provides a missing-facts investigation for Wikipedia, then many Wikipedians would be eager to format and proofread Wikitribune reports which answer those missing facts, then cite results back into WP pages while updating for the new information. Imagine getting answers for age-old mysteries or events where the specific details have been unclear for too long. As a result, many related wikilink pages will get updated in a positive synergy between Wikitribune and WP. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:37, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • The OP is total nonsense without even an attempted justification. Bluster rarely works at Wikipedia. Johnuniq (talk) 01:01, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Objective interviews by Wikitribune

    The fake news could be refuted by interviews conducted by Wikitribune reporters. For example, perhaps an interview with former Secretary Hillary Clinton could refute the email controversy by explaining how emails were actually handled, as one reader concluded there was no way the U.S. State Department was run by private server with only 2,100 sensitive emails, so ask, "How many coworkers handled classified emails on behalf of the Secretary because 2,100 emails is nothing over a 4-year term?". Likewise, other in-depth interviews by Wikitribune journalists could refute other fake-news stories during the last few years. The goal of an interview would be to explain key questions, rather than pile-on the faked hype. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:51/22:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Original research by request

    Beyond fake news, I think a major benefit could be provided as missing-fact requests from Wikipedia editors, such as re-check coroner's records to report time-of-death, or timespan, or likely 2nd cause of death in high-profile cases, such as Kurt Cobain and explain heroin levels in forensic toxicology. Another example might be distance between crime scenes in 1888 with Jack the Ripper or re-check records for familial DNA or relevant blood types at the time. Other requests might be to report simple facts, such as height or line size of the Uffington White Horse or similar, if such facts are not already in reliable sources. There could easily be 1,000 requests about a thousand major topics, not just ho-hum political squabbles but rather facts about major mysteries or events spanning hundreds of years, perhaps part-time tasks for archaeologists. We've never had the chance to ask, "How deep does the nilometer reach on Elephantine Island at Aswan, Egypt(?)" and get documented results by journalists (with contacts who can swim underwater and check). Wikid77 (talk) 16:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:35, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Perhaps allow quarterly support

    In the U.S. some large property taxes are paid quarterly (4 times per year), such as 4×$700, to spread the cost but not so tedious as 12 monthly payments. Meanwhile, many overspend at Xmas into January, and so 4 support payments as Feb/May/Aug/Nov could be ideal to total $200 to $1,000 annually for enthusiastic members (and level the income stream), during the first years of Wikitribune. Set aside extra monies to handle unexpected problems during the "maiden voyage" of the new project. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:37, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    The Daily Mail chimes in

    Here is what the DM has to say about Wikitribune today.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm definitely happy about that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I saw the article, in particular the part "He made 18 changes, cutting references to 'Bomis Babes' and replacing the word 'pornography' with softer terms such as 'glamour photography'", while over in the sidebar on the Mail's website, I can see "Millie Mackintosh shows off her toned abs in a crop top and scarlet trouser suit as she enjoys date night with beau Hugo Taylor"[4], "Slimline Vicky Pattison flaunts her fantastic figure and toned stomach in a bright pink bikini"[5] and "Explicit drama Versailles continues to shock as Anna Brewster strips off for a bath... and takes part in a sadomasochistic sex scene"[6]. Jeez, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. And then of course there's "Enemies of the People" and "Crush the saboteurs"..... (for the avoidance of doubt, I did not participate in the Mail ban and do not especially agree with it) Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:25, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead." David Farragut: Battle of Mobil Bay, Aug. 5, 1864 Nocturnalnow/Alzheimer's victim
    Hi Jimmy, was there any truth to their statement he was behind a PR stunt in which Wikipedia, the world's sixth-most-popular website, decided the Daily Mail is too 'unreliable' to be included on its site. Kudos if you were, but I didn't spot you in the discussion. Is this another example of the Daily Mail making stuff up? ϢereSpielChequers 18:08, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I had the same question. I didn't participate in that discussion either so maybe I masterminded it? By the way, they're doing a bang-up job of showing how reliable they are. Coretheapple (talk) 18:30, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't sense any sour grapes in their tone. Nope. Not them. High journalistic standards and stuff. Ravensfire (talk) 19:01, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Sarcasm aside, I have to say that I hadn't followed the Daily Mail affair at all, and reading this article was all the evidence I needed that the RfC was correct. One can raise legitimate questions about this project. We're doing so right here. The Daily Mail didn't raise a single one, and instead published a polemic that it didn't even label as opinion! Coretheapple (talk) 21:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Nonprofit status and libel insurance

    I'm not seeing any indication as to whether this would be nonprofit. Did I miss something? Is Jimbo setting up a 501C3 in the US? This is based in London, according to the Wikipedia article, which raises another issue: libel laws. Will this venture have libel insurance? Libel laws are strict in the UK. I'm assuming that this Wikitribune will be a "publisher" (unlike Wikipedia).

    Frankly I can't quite fathom why someone would contribute to a venture without a clear understanding as to whether contributions are deductible. Like I said, maybe I missed that. If so, it should be reflected in the Wikipedia article, which is silent on the subject except for a "see also" to the article on nonprofit journalism. And if it's a for-profit venture, why should I contribute to someone else's business?

    I'm also puzzled as to why this is based in London at all, considering the libel law situation over there. Coretheapple (talk) 14:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    I live in London, so we're based in London. I'm setting up a US subsidiary and of course in the future we'll want to look at the details of the best location for legal status.
    On the second question, I want to present this to you in another way because I think you're making a very common conceptual error. Suppose a news site was subscription only. To get access, you have to pay. That's obviously perfectly normal and I think you'd see that as normal. Suppose then as well, the newspaper said, oh right, well, look - if you choose not to pay, that's ok, we'll let you have access for free. But we won't be able to hire as many journalists that way, but I hope you can pay. Many people will pay anyway, because they want to fund good journalism and because they want that journalism to be widely read (that is to say, a paywall is a negative thing even for people who are paying). The way you were looking at it, dropping the paywall suddenly means "contributing to someone else's business" in a weird way, rather than "paying for a company to do something I want them to do, which is write good stuff and share it with the world."--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:35, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    With all due respect I don't think I'm making a conceptual error. All nonprofit sites (such as ProPublica) have the very business model you articulate. The difference is that ProPublica is clearly nonprofit, whereas your status is hazy. (I believe that under IRS rules, present contributors' contributions would not be deductible unless you have already filed a 501C3 application). Coretheapple (talk) 14:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I don't think anything is hazy. This is a normal limited company, publicly disclosed in the normal way. And it isn't even a US organization at all (yet), so this has nothing to do with the IRS.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    In other words, what you seem to be offering is the same as ProPublica except without much initial capitalization, and with it not necessarily nonprofit, meaning that contributions are not deductible at the present time, and in fact this may be a for-profit business going forward. Coretheapple (talk) 14:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    .... jut to clarify: I don't mean what you are offering is editorially the same. You have readers playing a much higher visibility role, though I'm not clear on how those readers are selected or self-selected. Coretheapple (talk) 15:44, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Coretheapple, FWIW I think this is a bad idea which will crash and burn, but I see nothing untoward about the business model here. "For-profit company soliciting voluntary contributions" is a perfectly acceptable business model in journalism—the highest-profile example is probably The Guardian. ‑ Iridescent 16:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh I wasn't trying to imply that there was anything shady about the business model, just trying to understand it. Jimbo has clarified its tax status above (not nonprofit under US law). The Guardian has a dedicated readership but even so I don't believe it has done that well lately, having discharged much of its US staff. What Jimbo is banking on here, I gather, is that the reader-participation model will spur contributions and buzz. It may. But nonprofit tax status would help. Also the libel insurance issue is something to consider. Come to think of it, this Wikitribune might be close enough to Wikipedia in public purpose to be considered eligible for Wikipedia to contribute to it, if it was a nonprofit. Not advocating it, just mentioning the possibility. And no, I don't think that's a good use of Wikipedia assets. Will it crash and burn? Too early to say. Coretheapple (talk) 16:55, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Returning to ProPublica for a moment: I haven't checked the 990s and it is too early to say for sure, but I believe it has done very well financially. I believe its content is free-licensed too. Coretheapple (talk) 17:00, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Libel laws are more of a problem for tabloids. If the news you bring is mainly about things like X having an affair with Y, then you're going to be much more vulnerable to being sued by X and losing in court, than a story about, say, how a drug company has faked research leading to a drug that has unacceptable side effects being sold. In such a case you'll have evaluated a lot of evidence from many independent sources to back up any claims in the story. You can then stick to hard evidence and still have a good news story that is in the public interest. The drug company will not sue if their lawyers can see that they'll lose in court
    Another issue is that tabloid-style news reports have made inroads in the more serious media (like e.g. BBC) to some degree because news has become more commercial, there is need to attract readers. For the serious news outlets this mainly affects the choice of topics. Some popular issue will be reported on more frequently than justified by its news value, because it has some "entertainment value". During the US presidential campaign, a lot of the reports about Trump were due to this effect, and Trump successfully exploited this effect (and no surprise then that there were a few libel cases due to excessive reporting about Trump and his wife). In general this tends to shift the focus away from relevant but perhaps boring facts toward people who are involved in such facts, because our brains are geared toward finding personal issues more interesting. Sometimes this is actually justified but in many cases it's the wrong way to get to the bottom of things (and often exploited by distractors). Count Iblis (talk) 21:59, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I think business stories are actually a major field of operations in libel law, certainly in the U.S. In Britain, Canada and Australia, the laws are far more pro-plaintiff. It seems only prudent to have libel insurance. Remember too that the idea here is to have volunteers working alongside professionals in the writing and editing process. That doesn't help. Coretheapple (talk) 22:16, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Here's a useful article on the subject of British libel law.[7] Remember too the recent movie "Denial," about the libel case that David Irving brought, in England, against an American writer. That movie seemed pretty accurate. It showed how hard it was for libel defendants in Britain. Coretheapple (talk) 22:20, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Ian Hislop

    Hi Jimbo. Firstly, best of luck with this, it sounds interesting and potentially a cool blending of wiki and traditional journalism. Now, a possibly slightly crazy idea, but have you considered reaching out to Ian Hislop regarding this project? Obviously his well known journalism is somewhat different to your goals here, but he has been extremely vocal about problems with the traditional media (e.g. his appearance before the Leveson Inquiry). You're in London, his business is in London, it might just be worth seeing if he fancies lunch/dinner/a pint sometime? If nothing else, he could certainly give you some expert advice on the above libel concerns. Murph9000 (talk) 22:29, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Oooh, interesting. Would be fun to meet him anyway. :-) I'll look into it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:17, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Russian government and control of the Internet

    "OpenEconomy has learned of three potential ways the [Russian] authorities might begin to 'restore order' to the Internet in the coming years."

    —Wavelength (talk) 21:34, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Our ability to control what the KGB does in Russia has long been limited. Our foremost duty is to remain true to ourselves. If Russia sees clear to ban Wikipedia because we have something in it they don't want talked about, let them! The world might be safer if their nuclear engineers are a little less educated. Yet Wikipedia's model encourages subversion - the free and open archive practically begs to be smuggled over the Wall once it is rebuilt. So let them do that also. Meanwhile, let's not forget that the first part of Putin's idea (data retention) is a plague that did not begin in Russia. We should fight that where we know the language and profess an ability to influence the government, knowing the heroes and the villains here are both international in nature. Wnt (talk) 00:17, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @Putin, @KGB: WP:NOTCENSORED. If that means you choose to harm the ordinary people of your nation, by denying them access to knowledge resources, so be it. Also, @Putin: maybe you know better from your days in the KGB, but I'm pretty certain that the ARPANET was a DARPA project for DoD, and not some secret CIA plot to chip away at the Soviet Union. Murph9000 (talk) 01:05, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    But then Alexandra Elbakyan has stolen all the scientific knowledge in the World and brought it to Russia from where she distributes it to everyone on the planet. Count Iblis (talk) 07:19, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Count Iblis, interestingly, to me, her lede includes a comparison by Ars Technica to Aaron Swartz, who, imo, was a young man with amazing potential and perhaps, too much idealism, who was, imo, targeted by mean-spirited creeps who hounded him to his death with nowhere near the consideration given to him by the same creeps that they gave/give to political and Wall Street criminals, but I have no opinion concerning Alexandra Elbakyan herself as I know nothing about her or her history, however, her Blp certainly could use a lot more content if she is as important as you say. However, for clarification purposes only, are you saying that both "stealing all the scientific knowledge in the world" and "distributes it to everyone on the planet." are both bad things individually or just in concert? I mean, assuming she stole it all, would it be better if she had not distributed it? Nocturnalnow/Alzheimer's victim
    What she did was not bad as I've pointed out here but, of course, Elsevier has a different opinion. Legally, it is theft, but I guess it's a mistake to apply the concept of property to scientific knowledge. Count Iblis (talk) 21:07, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Count Iblis,thanks very much. Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:36, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Jimbo Wikitribune on CBC NOW

    Coming up at on the money show http://www.cbc.ca/player/news/TV%20Shows/On%20the%20Money

    Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:38, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    So, the Wikitribune segment was great. Jimbo was great. You can see it yourself tomorrow here. Its near the end of the hour long show.Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:16, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

    Wikitribune, US Net Neutrality repeal and EU Copyright Reform

    Good job on your Wikitribune Jimbo, but the Internet is under threat. Ajit Pai is threatening to get rid of strong net neutrality rules in the United States and a vote is scheduled for May 18, while in the European Union, the Parliament is debating copyright rules that would create new ancillary copyrights for press publishers and would create a mandatory censorship machine, affecting Wikipedia, which MEP Julia Reda says that Wikipedia could be required to employ robots to filter copyrighted content, and it won't even recognise fair use, like for example, an image of Miles "Tails" Prower could be deleted by SEGA under new EU copyright rules from Wikipedia, affecting not just the EU, but worldwide. YouTube has a content recognition technology and it doesn't recognise fair use. The new EU copyright reform could remove safe harbours. This is like the EU brought back SOPA, which Wikipedia blacked out against five years ago. -Mrs. Jan Cola (talk), 01:08, 29 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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