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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wickifrank (talk | contribs) at 21:08, 27 June 2019 (→‎Representative Democracy?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Good articleUnited States has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Did You KnowOn this day... Article milestones
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December 15, 2005Good article nomineeListed
May 7, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
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May 18, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
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Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on February 3, 2015.
The text of the entry was: Did you know [...] that the United States accounts for 37% of all global military spending?
On this day... A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on July 4, 2008.
Current status: Good article

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America > United States ???

What?! I have a "Music Trivia Game" on Facebook. Today's question, #446, was "Who wrote the song, 'America'?" The answer on the game card was Dr. Samuel Francis Smith (which probably nobody is going to know), but somebody answered "Paul Simon". This surprised me, though after a few seconds I supposed that yes, Simon would have enough nerve to use that title. So I went to Wikipedia to look for info on this song before replying to the person who gave the "wrong" answer, entered "America" and... wound up at "United States"! Excuse me, but "America" should surely lead to a disambiguation page, with the USA, songs, seventies rock band (love that "Today's the Day"!), etc. I'm pretty sure this must have come up here before, possibly several times with possible strong disagreement – so what's the word on this? Who on earth would insist on "America"'s directing here? How on earth was consensus reached on this (if it was)? Thanks. –Roy McCoy (talk) 17:44, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

America has a disambiguation page America (disambiguation) linked to at the top of the article, this then gives you a link to America (Simon & Garfunkel song). Just some up loads of discussion in English the term America is a common name for the United States hence the redirect to here. MilborneOne (talk) 18:02, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of terms are common names for lots of things, but that doesn't necessarily justify a redirect such as this one. I'm a seventy-year-old US citizen, so I don't need to be informed that "America" is a common name for the United States. Where's the indication of consensus? Discussion can be continued in any event, and a new consensus can be established if necessary (and if possible, of course). If this keeps coming up, it's for a reason. I suppose it's likely that this page is occupied by one or a couple of America > United States enthusiasts, in which case, if anyone opposed to this is (still) around, they should chime in now. I'll check for possible discussion at the "America" talk page before closing here, and... it redirects to here. That's weird, but indicates that this is the place for related discussion. Thanks. –Roy McCoy (talk) 18:24, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing to fix here. This sort of redirect situation is very common in WP. "X" is a very common name for "Y", so WP has "X" redirect to "Y" to help the most readers; the fact that "X" is sometimes used for other things dosen't change its primary use; we have an "X (disambiguation)" page for those other things, which is noted at top of "Y". --A D Monroe III(talk) 19:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Once again I'm being spoken to as if I had no idea what I'm talking about. I haven't personally dealt with redirects up to this point, rather than questioning one at... I can't even remember... uh... High Noon? It was some western... yes, The Searchers. I thought that should go to a disambiguation page too, not considering it all that obvious that the film trumped the Merseybeat group to the degree implied (love that "Needles and Pins-ah"!). Both, after all, were from a past era, and both are still remembered today. But anyway I know what a redirect is. And "America", aside from having more than merely occasional other uses, isn't even unitary as regards geography: there are six other Americas listed on the disambiguity page, and this doesn't include another one I'm aware of in Santiago de Cuba. A D Monroe III says there's nothing to fix. I say there is. That's a difference of opinion. But MilborneOne is apparently also of the America > United States camp, and no one else has come in on my side here, and the America > United States camp apparently won the last war on this, and I have no intention of devoting any significant amount of attention to it – so I suppose it will stand as it is (erroneously, in my opinion and that of others). I suspect, however, that a Google search will indicate that "America", aside from being somewhat controversial and offensive, is not equivalent to the other terms redirecting to this page. I'll do this now. Number of finds:
"citizen of the United States of America" – 3,220,000
"citizen of the United States" -"citizen of the United States of America" – 14,000,000
"citizen of the US" – 7,560,000
"citizen of the USA" – 1,610,000
(Note the first find here: "Mexicans and Canadians are Americans, and some of them object strenuously to equating 'American' to 'citizen of the USA'.")
And now let's try:
"citizen of America" – 6,650,000
That's more than I expected for "America" and so the Google search didn't bear me out as anticipated, though there's still a 4-to-1 preponderance of the US variants and "the United States" alone is more than twice as common as "America" here. The redirect is questionable regardless, any assertion to the contrary notwithstanding, but I don't intend to challenge it further in the absence of any other immediate opposition here. –Roy McCoy (talk) 22:27, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We all understand that this, as most things on WP, has absolutely nothing to do with editors' opinions (nor Google searches), but only about what the RSs say. If they overwhelming use "America" to mean "US", then WP follows them; indeed, it must follow them, as any encyclopedia, by definition, reflects the most common well-sourced information as it currently stands without any attempt to ever "correct" it. Other wikis exist to do just that, but not WP. --A D Monroe III(talk) 17:03, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There are purportedly reliable sources that are actually reliable and others that are not, and I would hope we all understood this also. But what are the purportedly reliable sources in this case? Have they actually been documented (they may well have), or is it just an "everybody knows that" kind of thing? The New Oxford American Dictionary in my Mac defines America primarily as "a landmass in the western hemisphere that consists of the continents of North and South America joined by the Isthmus of Panama", with "used as a name for the United States" appended below in second place. This is only the first source I have at hand and the one most immediately accessible to me, but I'm sure it's not the only one with such a primary definition of the term in question (which is and remains in question, if not actively here), and it strongly suggests the preferability of a disambiguation page rather than an immediate jump to this one. –Roy McCoy (talk) 17:25, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There are also ways of measuring traffic patterns that are used in evidence of what people are looking for, as in determining that most people who type in "New York" are looking for the city not the state. Perhaps there has been a pushback by Oxford against US-centric definitions of terms. My copy of Fowler's Modern English Usage says that the use of "America" for "United States" is a matter of laziness rather than arrogance and that people should accept it, analogously as they accept "English" to mean a resident of Great Britain. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:15, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But I don't accept that! As a matter of fact, I've never even heard of it. Scots have always been Scottish, in my experience. I don't have experience with Welshpeople, but I now see they're not good with this either. By the way, I think it's the Brazilians who protest "America/n" for the US and US American, more than the Canadians and Mexicans as suggested by the Google find above. I myself favor "Usonia/n". –Roy McCoy (talk) 00:54, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, it's been widely debated. The term "USonian" is also something of an ideological cause. It's interesting that French Wikipedia had a long debate about the French equivalent of "USonian," which failed. (The official term remains "American.") The Hispanic world has a different history and usage of the term "America" than the English-speaking and French-speaking realms. You have to accept that they are not the same. Mason.Jones (talk) 23:39, 29 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can say I favor a different term – I don't have any problem with that – but don't misquote me. I wrote "Usonian", not "USonian". And this can be said to be a linguistic and not merely ideological preference, with Oxford openly approving the alternative term. I don't think it matters at all whether I conceal my opinion on this or not, but you're right at least in that there are things in languages that I don't like but nonetheless have to put up with, like flammable/inflammable, identical written forms for present and past tenses of "to read", etc. I'm still quite amazed, however, at your casual support for the contention that "English" means also "Welsh" and "Scottish". That, at least, still remains quite debatable, the granted lack of practical perspective for "Usonia/n" notwithstanding. The vastly preferable term is clearly "British", and in no way is "English" worthy of acceptance. –Roy McCoy (talk) 01:12, 30 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Whether Oxford approves the term isn't relevant. Actually, all French dictionaries "approve" of the alternate French term(s) as well, but that doesn't mean many French-speakers wish to use them. Your preference is a minority viewpoint, and one that English Wikipedia is unlikely to adopt soon. Mason.Jones (talk) 03:12, 30 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Noted! Thank you. Could you or someone else please explain to me what's been going on with Od Mishehu, by the way? I can't make it out. –Roy McCoy (talk) 03:22, 30 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"America" redirects to this page because this is the page most readers are looking for when they type in "America." That is in accordance with Wikipedia:Redirect. The redirect is not telling people what the term America should refer to. TFD (talk) 05:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2019

. PaulGrasu' (talk) 13:43, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. aboideautalk 13:44, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-foundation dates in infobox?

I noticed that listed on the infoboxes of many countries' articles are dates that long predate the foundation of the contemporary state, such as the dates of earliest human settlement and formation of predecessor state(s). Examples of this can be seen on the article infoboxes of Ukraine, Montenegro, Serbia, South Africa, the United Kingdom, and South Korea. Thus, I was wondering if we should do something similar here. Add references to earliest Native American settlement, formation of English/British colonies, things of that sort. An example can be something like "Settled by humans 12,000 BC", or some other things along those lines. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 09:08, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree...Note that United Kingdom is listed as 1535 (a rather useless date) France = Baptism of Clovis I in 496--also rather useless. Germany as 1871 [corresponds to 1776 for USA]. Let's just drop that very confusing factoid since the RS do not have a consensus. Rjensen (talk) 11:09, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Great seal (reversed)

What does that great seal (reversed) mean? What do you mean reversed? Pizzasuperman (talk) 15:04, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Reverse, not reversed. It means the back of the seal, the front is the obverse. Great Seal of the United States has more info. --Golbez (talk) 16:07, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)You must be referring to the infobox caption, which reads Great Seal (reverse), not "reversed", which would require a correction. "Obverse" and "reverse" are terms that usually signify the "heads" and "tails" of a coin. For the US seal, the design of the reverse is only specified, not a part of the seal as used in practice. See Great Seal of the United States. Dhtwiki (talk) 16:13, 25 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Representative Democracy?

Following the Supreme Court decision on gerrymandering on June 27 2019 I deleted the reference to the USA being a representative democracy as the decision clearly states that it not need be so under the Constitution. My deletion was reverted with the suggestion that we need a discussion. So be it. I invite discussion. What are the grounds for describing the USA as a representative democracy? It clearly was not one before the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and it is not clear that it is now if a) A president can be elected with many fewer votes than another Candidate, and b) Congress and other legislative bodies (example the Wisconsin Senate and Assembly) can be elected with large majorities that do not reflect political opinion within the collective electorate.

I deliberately did not attempt to provide an alternative description. Some international indexes have used the term "flawed democracy" but I am not sure that their standing is sufficient for Wikipedia so I left it blank. It is my contention that the person who reverted my post has effectively expressed an opinion which may not stand up to close examination.Wickifrank (talk) 16:33, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Representative democracy simply means that people with voting rights elect officials to represent them, and (unlike a direct democracy) do not themselves participate in the decision making. It does not mean that the political system is fair or that everyone has voting rights. One of the key criticisms on representative decocracies is that they are themselves a form of oligarchy:

  • "In his book Political Parties, written in 1911, Robert Michels argues that most representative systems deteriorate towards an oligarchy or particracy. This is known as the iron law of oligarchy.[1]"
  • "A drawback to this type of government is that elected officials are not required to fulfill promises made before their election and are able to promote their own self-interests once elected, providing an incohesive system of governance."[2]
  • "Legislators are also under scrutiny as the system of majority-won legislators voting for issues for the large group of people fosters inequality among the marginalized."[3] Dimadick (talk) 17:26, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was going to say something similar but not nearly as well researched. Dhtwiki (talk) 17:57, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Zur Soziologie des Parteiwesens in der modernen Demokratie. Untersuchungen über die oligarchischen Tendenzen des Gruppenlebens (1911, 1925; 1970). Translated as Sociologia del partito politico nella democrazia moderna : studi sulle tendenze oligarchiche degli aggregati politici, from the German original by Dr. Alfredo Polledro, revised and expanded (1912). Translated, from the Italian, by Eden and Cedar Paul as Political Parties: A Sociological Study of the Oligarchical Tendencies of Modern Democracy (Hearst's International Library Co., 1915; Free Press, 1949; Dover Publications, 1959); republished with an introduction by Seymour Martin Lipset (Crowell-Collier, 1962; Transaction Publishers, 1999, ISBN 0-7658-0469-7); translated in French by S. Jankélévitch, Les partis politiques. Essai sur les tendances oligarchiques des démocraties, Brussels, Editions de l'Université de Bruxelles, 2009 (ISBN 978-2-8004-1443-0).
  2. ^ Sørensen, Eva (2015). "Enhancing policy innovation by redesigning representative democracy". American Political Science Review – via ebscohost.[permanent dead link]
  3. ^ Thaa, Winfried (2016). "Issues and images – new sources of inequality in current representative democracy". Critical Review of International Social & Political Philosophy. 19 (3).

The phrase used in the article is " It is a representative democracy, "in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law" ". This expressly refers to "Majority Rule" . The SCOTUS ruling is that this need not be the outcome of an election in the USA and that a minority ruling over a majority is acceptable even when it is the consequence of a decision made by that very minority. I do not think the description can be allowed to stand any more than one describing the moon as being made of blue cheese.Wickifrank (talk) 21:08, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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