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Introductions too long for mobile users

Hello
I came across this edit recently (I've discussed it with the OP already): It raises an interesting point, ie. whether the length of the introduction in some articles are too long for mobile phone users. If so, it is going to be a problem across the project. Has this issue been raised and discussed already somewhere? ( I couldn't see anything in the archive, but that doesn't mean much...)I know we have a size rule, which was possibly more relevant when computers had less capacity; is it time to re-visit that principle? Any thoughts? Xyl 54 (talk) 22:30, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Helping readers is one thing, but helping people who don't want to actually read anything is not our problem. Google already provides a condensed version. WP:LEAD is the relevant guideline. Johnuniq (talk) 22:34, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed - in fact many more leads are too short than too long. Editors should realize that the majority of readers never get beyond the lead, and don't finish long ones. Far too many seem to think readers dutifully read every word they write - they don't. Johnbod (talk) 22:43, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you (both) for replying. I'm not sure what you mean: The edit in question just split the introduction into a lead sentence and an outline section (which could be an elegant solution). I'm raising the issue because it does conflict with MOS:LEAD. And I'm asking if there's anyone already looking at problems mobile users may have; is there? Also, what is the condensed version you mentioned; I'm not familiar with it. Xyl 54 (talk) 22:51, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't elegant at at all - it reduced the lead to a single sentence, which isn't enough. If you just want that, stay on google. Johnbod (talk) 06:02, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnuniq:: So, what is this condensed version provided by google you've mentioned? Xyl 54 (talk) 23:43, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we should overly cater to mobile at the expense of desktop. WP:LEDE has pretty good explanations of what the size of the lede should be relative to the article, and I would think that on mobile, the lede should sufficiently summarize the article without having to expand any sections. The lede is NOT the same as a brief definition or explanation, which is what that change looks like. --Masem (t) 22:59, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's not to say that there aren't leads that are too long, there certainly are. Any article tagged with {{lead too long}} will be included at Category:Wikipedia introduction cleanup. Helping out there may be the the best way to address the OP's concern. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:26, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Comment - 1 November 2019 - Is WP:ANIME subordinate to other projects?

Is WP:ANIME subordinate to WP:TV, WP:FILM and WP:COMICS, and therefore should comply with the guidelines of the parent projects? --AussieLegend (✉) 14:57, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes (as nominator). There is no doubt that WP:ANIME is a valid sub-project and MOS:ANIME should be followed where aspects are strictly related to anime but WP:ANIME should be following MOS:TV, MOS:FILM and/or MOS:COMICS, and parts of the MOS superior to those where and when applicable, when it comes to things like article heirachy, structure etc. MOS:AM#Scope even says This manual of style applies to articles about anime, manga, and related topics, and is a topic-specific subset Manual of Style of the following Manuals of Style: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies (where applicable) and later also Editors should also keep in mind the guidelines suggested on WikiProject Television or WikiProject Films, as those seem to work well for episodic media, including manga. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:57, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, as per nomination, and as per my various comments on the subject over the preceding months. P.S. This also obviously applies to naming conventions as well, as one of the bigger issues lately has been trying to get WP:ANIME to conform to, for example, WP:NCTV. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:09, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
IJBall, the naming conventions issue was already settled. Are you asking to bring that up again for RFC? AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 19:18, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm saying I want WP:ANIME to actually follow the proper naming conventions. The WP:RM that spawned this RfC, and One Piece (anime), are two prime examples where WP:ANIME is still not following that RfC result. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:45, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's a non-issue. I'm sure a bold move to One Piece (TV series) wont cause any problems with any editor.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 20:50, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not subordinate - interconnected. That said, interconnected guidelines should not conflict... and if one gets out of sync with the others, it needs to be amended to bring it back in sync. Blueboar (talk) 15:19, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. WP:ANIME is a valid group, but it is more of a multi-project task force than a high-level WikiProject. Their MoS, while created in good-faith, is sadly an example of WP:CFORK. Almost (if not all) of their content is already covered by one of the 3 top-level WikiProjects AussieLegend has mentioned in the RfC question - TV, Film and Comics. Anything else is probably found in other related guidelines, and anything missing should be added to those guidelines. Forking those guidelines to create an Anime one has caused a lot of issues. When discussing guidelines and WikiProjects, one should remember that a more specific topic should not contradict the more general one. For example, WP:TVSHOW should supplement WP:NOTABILITY and not contradict it. This however has not been the case with the WP:ANIME project, as they have argued that they an anime TV series has different standards of notability. The same has happened with article structure (which don't follow MOS:TV), and naming conventions (while their MoS does follow, common practice does not; see also this, and this). Hopefully this RfC will help integrate Anime into the wider editorial community. --Gonnym (talk) 15:27, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The Question in the RfC presented is misleading. WP:ANIME doesn't break any of the MOS rules of WP:TV and WP:FILM or even WP:COMIC. The reason why this RfC is happening is because WP:ANIME structures their articles hierarchy differently (but still within WP:MOSTV and WP:MOSFILM guidelines).
WP:ANIME's process is to create article for the original media as the primary topic and continue to add information such as adaptations and supplementary media. To prevent making redundant, and low-quality articles, instead of spinning out an entire subject for a single media, WP:ANIME just spins out the lists portions and keep the original article as the main topic for size reasons. For example: Rising of the Shield Hero original media is the light novel with manga and anime adaptation. it has List of volumes and List of The Rising of the Shield Hero episodes. Making a Rising of the Shield Hero (anime)^ or Rising of the Shield Hero (manga)^ will make lower quality articles, and redundant information. WP:ANIME decides to keep them together until substantial information is found and they can be split. WP:ANIME isn't against TV series articles altogether. Here are example of anime adaptations that were spunned out from the original media: Fullmetal Alchemist (TV series), Sailor Moon (TV series), Bleach (TV series), and Dragon Ball (TV series) and Dragon Ball Z.
What AussieLegend, IJBall and Gonnym want to achieve by this RfC is to do a mass campaign to re-purpose List of Episodes into TV series articles for those that don't have a TV series article and only a "franchise" article. And they want to achieve this regardless of how low quality and redundant it is to the original main article it was attached to. The reason why i'm voting No is because WP:ANIME is more than just a different type of comic, TV series, and movie. All three are part of a unified industry in Japan. The primary, secondary, and tertiary sources all recognize this industry with manga and anime at the top of the pyramid. English Television, Films, and Comics although make adaptations they're not unified like Anime/Manga's industry. I also believe this will do more harm than good.
These three editors believe if the RfC goes in their favor, then that means these editors now have the consensus they need to make the changes they desire. Nothing in the RfC suggest anything substantial or specific of what they actually want to achieve. Just because i voted No doesn't mean these editors can't tackle this issue directly or be more specific with the RfC. It doesn't change the fact that WP:ANIME is still following MOS guidelines of their respected Wikiprojects too.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 16:03, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ANIME doesn't break any of the MOS rules of WP:TV and WP:FILM or even WP:COMIC - Your continuing insistence on repeating your false claims (and I'm saying this very gently) is really annoying. You've been shown numerous guidelines, talk discussions and actual links to specific instances where ANIME's practice goes against both MoS and naming conventions. Saying otherwise does not make it true.
Making a Rising of the Shield Hero (anime)^ or Rising of the Shield Hero (manga)^ will make lower quality articles, and redundant information. - Even in your examples you are oblivious to correct naming conventions. "(anime)" should not be used as disambiguation. I've even linked to the RfC one comment above yours.
WP:ANIME decides to keep them together until substantial information is found and they can be split - Wow. Again with your WP:OWNERSHIP claims.
And they want to achieve this regardless of how low quality and redundant it is to the original main article it was attached to - You are again ignorant to the actual facts. The current and bad examples of the List of episodes articles are in essence the TV series article, whether you admit it or not. They are also, in their current state, not high quality or good articles. Some also have redirects from the base name. Changing their name via WP:RM does not change that fact. Ni ether does re-purposing those articles as the actual main TV series article create bad articles. On the contrary, now instead of a incorrectly named, disorganized TV series article, you have the an actual TV series article. --Gonnym (talk) 16:22, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your continuing insistence on repeating your false claims (and I'm saying this very gently) is really annoying. You've been shown numerous guidelines, talk discussions and actual links to specific instances where ANIME's practice goes against both MoS and naming conventions. Saying otherwise does not make it true. All you have to do is quote an actual MOS that explicitly states "Episode lists can only be spun out from standalone TV series articles and not any other type of article". As of now, WP:MOSTV only clarifies it an be done from the main article. There is no MOS that says the franchise article can cover the TV series either.
Even in your examples you are oblivious to correct naming conventions. "(anime)" should not be used as disambiguation. I've even linked to the RfC one comment above yours. Comment disregarded due to incivility. moving onto next statement.
You are again ignorant to the actual facts. The current and bad examples of the List of episodes articles are in essence the TV series article, whether you admit it or not. No. i'm not ignorant to Facts. I'm only seeing personal opinions and personal interpretations from you. But WP:ANIME objectively did not go against any MOS. Even then, i rather use Common sense argument than Policy is law.
On the contrary, now instead of a incorrectly named, disorganized TV series article, you have the an actual TV series article. First time i hear you make this claim. But i think this is up to personal interpretation and opinion. If you say its a bad list and needs to be formatted to be a better list. Then i can understand. But trying to say a list is a incorrectly named, disorganized TV series article? I'm sorry, but you haven't given me enough time to accept an idea. To me, this is a stretch of an idea.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 17:29, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot about WP:BIO as well, of course. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 19:20, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interconnected, not subordinate. Quite frankly, this whole thing is mountain made out of a mole hill. Calidum 17:36, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not subordinate - interconnected - Just because they cover similar ground does not automatically make one subordinate. WikiProjects shouldn’t be subordinate to one another unless created that way by design. If there is any debate when you even have to ask the question, then the answer is no. (Full disclosure - I was notified of this discussion, but the person did not notify me of their stance prior, and I formulated this response before reading their stance.) Sergecross73 msg me 17:52, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not subordinate - interconnected: seconding off AngusWOOF's reasoning. Spinning off longer series into their own article is nice but it risks creating lower quality articles for short-running series. lullabying (talk) 17:54, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interconnected, not subordinate per AngusWOOF and Sergecross73. I would be interested in what prompted AussieLegend to make this RfC (links to previous discussions, etc.). In some ways, WP:ANIME has a far broader scope than WP:TV, WP:FILM, or WP:COMICS, covering content even beyond those three. If anything, it's subordinate to WP:JAPAN since everything within its scope would also fall under WP:JAPAN, and it already works well with WP:JAPAN. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:11, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interconnected, not subordinate. per above arguments raised by AngusWOOF, Sergecross73, and Nihonjoe. I would further argue that WP:ANIME's very existence reflects the fact that anime/manga topics often reflect a distinct union of the above-mentioned media categories, demanding a different treatment of hierarchy and structure than outlined by those overlapping WP's. — Goszei (talk) 20:22, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Except that you are using viewpoint this as a license to ignore all of the other WP's MOS's, which is not what the other editors are saying. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:08, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No MOS is being ignored. All MOS are being considered. At the moment the way WP:ANIME operates, it does not systematically go against WP:MOSTV. Its just a small faction of WP:TV who have their own personal philosophy on how an article should look like and desperately trying to attach it to an MOS. Please stop using MOS unless you find definitive proof that WP:ANIME breaking the MOS systematically.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 22:11, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
off-topic
Please stop attacking WP:TV editors. All of the editors you are attacking have had a lot more experience editing TV articles and articles in general than you've had in your time at Wikipedia. We all have extensive experience in creating and maintaining TV articles than you have in your time here. Your persistent attacks are disrespectful and bordering on being personal attacks. --AussieLegend (✉) 22:37, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If my comment is a personal attack, then IJBall, Gonnym, and yourself are guilty of it for far longer. You don't get to push another editor around and use WP:CIVIL when you've pushed them too far and lost patience with you. it doesn't matter how long you've been here, i wont allow that again. If you want to give me that warning you better give it to IJBall aswell.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk)
Sorry for butting in, but what do you mean by "personal attacks"? He seems to just be disagreeing with you and other editors and disliking the route that this RFC is heading, but none of his comments seem to come anywhere near WP:NPA levels. Namcokid47 (Contribs) 18:47, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No need to apologise, your participation in the discussion is more than welcome. At the RM discussion, in the discussion above this RfC and in the RfC itself he is constantly attacking TV editors and making the discussion a WP:ANIME vs WP:TV thing, when it is definitely not. While individual attacks may not strictly be personal attacks, the constant attacks are, at the very best, gross incivility to the point where they've crossed the line. --AussieLegend (✉) 00:04, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The pot calling the kettle black @AussieLegend:. editors from WP:TV have done the same thing and were the first to be hostile, you can see in user talk:Gonnym. I also provided an olive branch afterwards. So bringing up the RM now is pointless.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 06:27, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yet another uncivil comment. I don't know, nor do I care, what allegedly happened on someone's talk page. Looking at the RM discussion, which was my first involvement, the incivility started with your post which said "What you WP:TVSHOW editors fail to understand".[1] Regardless, someone being hostile to you is not an excuse to be hostile yourself. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:53, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interconnected, not subordinate - As per Angus the scope of Anime and Manga goes beyond just WP:TV. I agree with Joe when he says if anything that the subordinate project would be WP:JAPAN. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:15, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interconnected, not subordinate - As per above. Also, having read through most of the discussions all over the place in regards to this User:AussieLegend and the others appear to be set in stone on their opinion that WP:ANIME should be subordinate to the others and seem to be unable to accept that Anime, Manga, and Light Novels operate differently to western media and so need to be treated differently. There was also a discussion a few weeks ago in regards to the infobox used for TV Series vs the one used for anime series, which as far as I know ended without a consensus of any kind. During all of these discussions, it seemed like some users were unwilling to accept that people had different interpretations of the Manual of Style and other guidlines and that most of these can and do coexist.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 16:06, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mu Project guidelines are quite weak per WP:BURO and WP:OWN. Each case should therefore be judged on its merits and our global policies are what matters. Anything less than a firm policy is too loosey-goosey to require formal treaties and borders between projects. Andrew D. (talk) 16:39, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not subordinate - interconnected - I was requested to comment on this. To my understanding, the rationale is that WP:ANIME is interconnected with WP:JAPAN, WP:BOOKS, can also be interconnected with WP:BIO, WP:MUSIC, and WP:VG. Netherzone (talk) 14:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The question asked in this RFC is unfortunate. Let's put together what's wrong with it: Is WP:ANIME subordinate to WP:TV, WP:FILM and WP:COMICS This question is irrelevant to the problem. The project is clearly distinct from the others and moreover has its own participating editors. should comply with the guidelines of the parent projects? This question is also irrelevant. Those guidelines are none of TV's, FILM's, ANIME's, COMIC's, or any other WikiProjects's. They presently live in the manual of style, which means they are Wikipedia's. If there is a display of ownership here, that's one of them. WikiProjects don't get to own guidelines. If we are actually interested in the question of the guidelines in play, the correct answer is generally "the more general guideline takes precedence". Now, however, the disputes in question seem to have been localized to certain !rules, and from that aspect I think this RFC is asking the wrong question. So all-around, close this RFC and start ones to clear the !rules up that are causing pain and misery. --Izno (talk) 20:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    The question was specifically chosen after discussion at WT:TV and the RM that is languishing in limbo. It is entirely relevant to that discussion since it has been a factor in the discussion. Nobody is talking about ownership here, it's to do with which parts of the MOS should be followed since WP:ANIME editors seem to have their own interpretations of both MOS:ANIME and MOS:TV and where experienced editors have tried to explain how TV articles are created (per MOS:TV and general practice) these explanations have been outright rejected by WP:ANIME editors. For example, one editor claimed that because the MOS doesn't explicitly say that a TV series article is the main article for a TV series, then that doesn't have to be the case. I challenged the editor to find even one List of Episodes page out of 47,000+ where the main article was not a TV series article and he outright refused. WP:ANIME editors have even argued that MOS:TV should be rewritten to "improve it" (i.e. comply with what anime editors believe is right), ignoring the fact that MOS:TV, which is generally consistent with MOS:FILM, has to cater for many more articles than MOS:ANIME. The figures are about 47,000 TV, 134,000 film and 900 anime.
    the more general guideline takes precedence - I don't disagree with that at all. The problem is that anime editors don't seem to agree with you. --AussieLegend (✉) 00:40, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    If you believe that the two guidelines do not line up or are contradictory, you need to fix the guidelines, not ask an irrelevant question. You asserting it is relevant does not make it so (and I've already told you why the question is irrelevant).
    Those editors are just as experienced as you. You do not need to comment on their persons. Period. The whole endeavor, WP:TV's involvement especially, whiffs of WP:BATTLEGROUND. It's "us versus them". Knock it off. If you are as experienced as you proclaim, you would have moved on to fixing the problematic guidelines, not duking it out.
    As I said, this RFC should be closed either in favor of the now-obvious consensus or closed because the question asked doesn't lead to a meaningful answer to the problem you are actually dealing with. --Izno (talk) 00:47, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    If you believe that the two guidelines do not line up or are contradictory, you need to fix the guidelines - Again, this is not the issue. Despite what MOS:AM#Scope says, the anime editors don't seem to want to collaborate at all. MOS:TV has been updated in recent years after long discussions with many editors. While there may be some minor points that need fixing, specifically changing it to "mandate" that a TV series article and not a franchise article is the main article would likely be seen as instruction creep.
    Those editors are just as experienced as you. You do not need to comment on their persons. - Please read what I wrote: where experienced editors have tried to explain how TV articles are created (per MOS:TV and general practice) I was specifically talking about how editors experienced in TV articles, vs editors more experienced in anime aspects and less experienced in TV article aspects while talking about TV articles. This was not a criticism of their overall experience as you seem to think.
    you would have moved on to fixing the problematic guidelines - I don't think the guidelines are the problem though. --AussieLegend (✉) 02:20, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    That's because no MOS tries to have that much control on the hierarchy of the articles. They're just a guideline to help write better articles.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 15:14, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree, however it's also because there is an assumption that editors will use common sense. When you look at the MOS and it doesn't say that a TV series article is the main article, common sense dictates that you either ask at the MOS' talk page or at the talk page of the associated project, or you look through several TV articles (up to 47,000+) to determine the convention and follow that, not say "be blowed with how everyone else does it, I'm going to do it this way!" --AussieLegend (✉) 16:35, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I respectfully disagree that is an example of common sense. When you compare Anime articles to 47000+ other TV articles, it opens up the argument of what the differences are and why they're relevant. The crux of the matter is that there are group of editors have different shared philosophies. Some editors like you, IJBall, and Gonnym are more concerned about having more TV series despite the quality. Other editors dont want to make unnecessary splits and creating more low-quality articles to work on. I personally think WP:ANIME's philosophy creates more consistently better articles than WP:COMICS and WP:TV. They have more high-quality articles, but they don't have a consistent method to create GA more often.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 17:08, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
what the differences are and why they're relevant - As has been demonstrated to you several times, there is no difference in the examples we looked at in the RM.
Some editors like you, IJBall, and Gonnym are more concerned about having more TV series despite the quality. -That's completely disrespectful and it's complete garbage. Our intent is to ensure that all television articles to be consistent with each other. That's the main reason for having project MOSes.
Other editors dont want to make unnecessary splits and creating more low-quality articles to work on. - This is completely irrelevant. There were no splits necessary, that was the idea of some of the anime editors who suggested creating a separate TV series article when it wasn't at all necessary. As has also been explained to you repetedly, moving an article doesn't cause it to be of lower quality. In fact the article that IJBall demonstrated was of a higher quality LoE page. The number of times that it has been necessary to rebut the same silly claims is quite ridiculous. --AussieLegend (✉) 17:38, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to quote every sentence like before. I wasn't disrespectful, i said the truth. WP:ANIME does follow the MOS in question. The MOS doesn't control how the heirarchy and doesn't attempt to. The MOS is there to asssist editors on how the articles look like. When WP:ANIME does create dedicated TV series articles, it does follow the MOS. And if we want to use common sense debate in this discussion we have to acknowledge all of the points brought up. Several editors in this discussion already acknowledge Anime is a different medium that deserves to be treated different than the average English TV series. Multiple editors have also expressed that they don't want to create TV series articles if it means they are low-quality. What their standards are you have yet to ask. For me, if its not a B or GA class, there's no point. Some of you from WP:TV are satisfied with stubs and start class and openly defended them.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 18:03, 8 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Aussie, you keep saying the move from a list of episodes page to a TV series page doesn't change the quality, and while you are right, it does change the criteria. A List could be good as a list that seperates the episodes when there become too many for the main franchise page to neatly hold, but as a TV series page, it is then classified as a stub and has far stricter criteria and would simply lead to duplication of infomation across the franchise and TV series page. Or worse, it would lead to the franchise page lessening in quality because a load of its content is removed to another page where it isn't nessisary, thus creating two articles of far lower quality. And why do we need soooo much consistancy between pages when it comes as a determent to other aritcles? Or Should all biography pages have all of the bio detials split into ten year segments even when it doesn't fit?--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 22:20, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
while you are right, it does change the criteria - why does this even matter? Page moves occur all the time and nobody talks about the assessment process when it happens. It was demonstrated here that List of Toriko episodes is actually a TV series article mislabelled as a List of Episodes page.
as a TV series page, it is then classified as a stub - The anime editors keep saying this but that's not the case at all. As I've had to say far too many times, it would be at least start class based on the assessment criteria.
Or worse, it would lead to the franchise page lessening in quality because a load of its content is removed to another page - There is actually very little in the franchise page for that series anyway. Moving the article would not affect the franchise article.
why do we need soooo much consistancy between pages - Quite frankly, that's a silly question. Consistency is generally acknowledged to be a good thing. That's why we have the MOS, to guide editors in producing articles that are consistent.
Or Should all biography pages have all of the bio detials split into ten year segments even when it doesn't fit? - Nowhere does the MOS say that should happen. Consistency does not mean articles have to be identical. --AussieLegend (✉) 00:30, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The crux of the matter

  • If a question like this even comes up, it sounds like the guidelines used by projects are overly prescriptive (and of course the answer must then be "no"). WikiProjects are not hierarchical, and there is not the One True Way to do everything. Try to write good articles instead of enforcing more "consistency" than is appropriate. —Kusma (t·c) 22:54, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, part of the problem here is that the guidelines aren't prescriptive enough. Because MOS:TV does not explicitly say that the main article for a television series should be a TV series article, WP:ANIME has decided that franchise articles are main articles. However, this is not the case for any of the 46,000+ TV programs that Wikipedia covers. --AussieLegend (✉) 00:04, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not part of the problem, this is the core problem that you, Gonnym, and IJBall have. Its a conflict of philosophies, not guidelines. Despite this, i still recommend to use common sense. And in order to use common sense, we need context. What are the fundamental differences between Anime TV series and 46000+ TV programs you claim? I doubt that the 46000+ TV programs you mention are all part of multimedia franchises. Maybe 1000-1500 articles, but that is being generous. Here are other fundamental differences:
1) The average reader is looking for both anime and manga series.
2) The Japanese entertainment industry is co-dependent of each other and are created systematically. When the success of the original media rises, the industry demands an adaptation that is either a manga, anime, or light novel. 90% of the time Japanese franchises are made up of all three. Light novels have been trending this decade, but before it was mostly anime and manga. Unlike western franchises where it is not nearly a guarantee.
3) 90% of TV anime are adaptations are co-dependent to the manga or light novel.
4) 90% of the original media its adapting from is not notable on its own. This may be due to lack of reliable sources talking about it, or coverage.
5) If the original media is notable and can be a good-quality article on its own, the anime TV series may not be able to stand on its own as a good-quality article and is more beneficial to be left merged with the original media's page.
For all these reasons, it should be acceptable without question why WP:ANIME follows the current process.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 08:11, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
this is the core problem that you, Gonnym, and IJBall have - More incivility.
46000+ TV programs you claim - Actually, the number of TV series articles using {{Infobox television}} is 47,682 right now.[2] There may be some TV programs that don't use that infobox.
I doubt that the 46000+ TV programs you mention are all part of multimedia franchises. - They aren't, but that's not at all relevant. Whether or not they are part of a franchise, the TV series article is always the main article for a TV series, as already explained to you multiple times. Franchise articles are usually created later. For example, NCIS originally started with a single series. After other series were started, a franchise article was created to tie the franchise elements together but the individual series articles remain the main articles for each series. This is how it has always been done.
Maybe 1000-1500 articles - Where did you get that number from?
The Japanese entertainment industry - As has been explained to you previously, we're not talking about the Japanese entertainment industry.
For all these reasons, it should be acceptable without question why WP:ANIME follows the current process. - And yet it's not. Nothing you've written justifies stepping away from the article hierarchy that is standard for all TV programs. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:05, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel the need to respond anymore because i don't consider any of your points valid. I'm opting for common sense and common sense requires context. If you want to dismiss that context, its up to you and you are welcomed to do so. I presented my points and i trust other editors know the correct choice to make.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 11:58, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel the need to respond anymore because i don't consider any of your points valid. -- And therein lies the real problem. You constantly put forward unsupportable claims and irrelevancies and when they are debunked you either attack the other editor or ignore them while presenting no valid justification yourself. Case closed. --AussieLegend (✉)
Actually if you look above my comment, this is what you're doing. I've responded respectively and in detail in the past. you call it irrelevant, but other editors pointed out similar statements.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 20:37, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"No, it wasn't me it was you" - That's essentially your argument. If you look at the RM, the discussion that immediately preceded this RfC and this RfC, your claim is not supportable. --AussieLegend (✉) 00:24, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. that is my argument.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 00:26, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like this should be shut now

The consensus here is that the projects are interconnected but not subordinate, and this has become more of just a shouting match between AussieLegend and Blue Pumpkin Pie which ultimately isn't going to lead anywhere as both users are set in there ways. So I think its time to close the Request for Comment. What does everyone else think?--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 22:20, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I second this, a move discussion also closed recently with no consensus based on MOS:TV guidelines. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:24, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a case of being a shouting match. It's a case of having to rebut the same, often silly, claims (like moving an article will turn it into a stub) over and over because a couple of editors just don't get it. @Knowledgekid87: That's not how the RM closed. It was merely closed as no consensus. Neither MOS:ANIME or MOS:TV were mentioned in the closing comments. --AussieLegend (✉) 00:30, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
AussieLegend, you're blatantly forum shopping. If you notified WP:TV editors in the past for this discussion, why do you believe notifying them for WT:MOSTV#Article Heirarchy clarification? The majority of the editors disagree with treating the series the same. Why can't you just improve these articles yourself until there's enough information to create a good-quality article? Why do you believe your method is better?Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 02:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. Suggesting changes to the MOS to improve guidance for editors is NOT forum shopping. You yourself argued that MOS:TV doesn't explicitly say that a TV series article is the main article for a TV series, even though that should be common sense since 47,000+ articles do exactly that. Obviously, if editors misunderstand the MOS and simple conventions then we need to look at helping them to avoid any confusion. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I agree with Ditto51 on this that it needs to be shut down. However I will say that this has gotten way out of hand on both sides. We as editors should keep in mind why we edit and it isn't for ourselves it should be for our readers of Wikipedia. The whole RM and this discussion to me is pretty much about WP:TV vs WP:ANIME which it should not be. I advise everyone to take a step back and before proposing something like an RM first look at it through the eyes of a first time Wikipedia reader and see if it makes any common sense at all.
For example let's say a reader heard about Toriko from a group of friends that like anime and manga. This reader has no idea about anime and manga and is interested by what their friends have told him. This reader then takes to Google and searches for Toriko and sees our article in the #1 spot and clicks on it. Now this reader sees the links List of Toriko characters, List of Toriko chapters and List of Toriko episodes and decides not to click on them as the reader is afraid of potential spoilers. They read through the whole franchise article and feels they have a decent understanding of the franchise and feels its not for them.
Now let's rewind this example but first let's say the RM passed and List of Toriko episodes was renamed to Toriko (TV series). Begin example, first time reader searches for Toriko finds our franchise article at the #1 spot on Google clicks on it, avoids any list articles and sees List of Toriko characters and List of Toriko chapters however they see the link to Toriko (TV series). Now at this point our fresh, virgin Wikipedia reader will naturally (and using common sense) think this is an actual article and click on the link. However the reader will be upset to find that this is actually a full fledged list with the lead summarizing what he just read in the franchise article. The reader is upset and mad at Wikipedia and thinks the title was clickbait.
This is why I personally think in situations like this we shouldn't go renaming lists like List of Toriko episodes or List of Tokyo Ghoul episodes to Toriko (TV series) and Tokyo Ghoul (TV series) respectively. It should be common sense that the title reflect what the article is to avoid being perceived by casual and first time readers as misleading or clickbait names. If most of the article is a list then it should have list in the name. Unless someone is going to take the time and effort to reformat pages like List of Toriko chapters and List of Tokyo Ghoul episodes to match the style and formatting of articles like The Addams Family (1973 TV series) which is an article with an embedded list then they should keep their current names. Alucard 16❯❯❯ chat? 05:09, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The whole RM and this discussion to me is pretty much about WP:TV vs WP:ANIME which it should not be. - I completely agree and it was never meant that way. I won't go into too many specifics about what happened but the RM discussion was only ever meant to correct a problem with one article. The original discussion on this page was started by an editor who did not like the idea of moving the article and this RfC was started because no progress was being made. That the consensus is obviously that MOS:ANIME and MOS:TV are interconnected is fine with me. It demonstrates what has been said all along, i.e. that we have to collaborate. --AussieLegend (✉) 10:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Collaborate doesn't mean do things the same way though – it means work together to make the best pages possible, if that means doing a particular form of media differently, then that should be fine so long as the eventual articles are the best that they can be. Alucard 16 example pretty much sums up why people don't want to move the list of episode pages to TV series pages. And you call Blue's arguements silly and that you are sick of countering them. But I'm pretty sure Blue feels the same way about your Aussie. You are both just stating your points and refusing to budge so stop acting like you are above Blue because you are both doing the same thing, anyone who looks at this discussion can see that.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 21:08, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say or even suggest that collaborate means doing things the same way. Since the beginning the anime editors have refused attempts to collaborate. There was some discussion and apparently some animosity well before I ever got involved, which was this edit, yet I have been accused by those editors of being part of the earlier animosity even though I had no involvement. From my point of view, not being aware of the earlier issues, the first I saw was when Blue Pumpkin Pie's first response to me was What you WP:TVSHOW editors fail to understand. That's fairly aggressive and not at all conducive to collaboration but BPP has maintained that attitude from the beginning.
I'm pretty sure Blue feels the same way about your Aussie. - Maybe he does. The difference is that my responses have all been based on current practices and the MOS. BPP keeps restating silly things like moving an article will turn it into a stub when anyone can see that is not the case at all. He's done very little to actually help in this issue other than attempt to confuse the matter and he's even been called out in the past 24 hours for it at Talk:List of Toriko episodes. I can't say the same for the other anime editors. At least they now seem willing to collaborate. --AussieLegend (✉) 03:50, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Having looked at the Toriko page, I can see why you'd want to move that to a main TV series page because there is a lot of content on there that isn't indictive of a list (I haven't ever actually commented on this example spefically before, only in general based on my knowledge of anime pages I've seen, which didn't include the Toriko page). However, what you are arguing for at this point is an over arching change that would change some pages that are just a list of episodes where the main page is the franchise page, and in those cases it isn't benifical to seperate the pages, that is why people are so resistant to the blanket propsols to change the MOS to be overly controlling.--Ditto51 (My Talk Page) 09:57, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Help requested on drive page

Hello, I have created the NHLtoGA Drive which focuses on bringing all current NHL teams to Good Article status. Any tips on how I can improve the page, promote the drive, and be successful? Any tools I could use? Also, should I move it to WikiProject/Wikipedia space when I finish the page? Thank you. AmericanAir88(talk) 19:16, 1 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Publications query

Please look at my query about two Australian arts publications with similar names, and make suggestions on how they should be handled in Wikipedia. Bjenks (talk) 09:22, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

British only or wider definition for Built-up area (Highway Code)?

Built-up area has two very different meanings: one road related, and another one for things not related to the road.

The road related legal concept of Built-up area exists in countries members of the Vienna convention, including the United Kingdom. The road related concept of Built-up area also exists in non member countries, such as Ireland, South Africa, and Australia.

The Vienna convention provides a standard definition of road related concept of Built-up area but allows member nations to implement alternative definitions of it. UK (member), and Australia and Ireland (non members) use alternative definitions.

It looks like nowadays, within Built-up area (also named within urban area) is used for speed limit (for instance in Speed limits by country (column within town (wikipedia dialect for within Built-up area))), when previously (1968 convention) Built-up area was more focused on lightings.

Thus, I was wondering if Built-up area (Highway Code) should exclude non British countries, or deal with that concept only for United-Kingdom?

Please, talk it on Talk:Built-up_area_(Highway_Code)#British_Built-up_area_(Highway_Code)_vs_European_Built-up_area_(Highway_Code) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.208.32 (talk) 01:31, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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