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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 202.78.236.6 (talk) at 17:59, 24 September 2020. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Liberal bias should be mentioned and can be sourced

https://web.stanford.edu/~ayurukog/cable_news.pdf

Page 3: A key source of variation in this exercise is MSNBC’s change in business strategy towards offering more liberal content.

Page 6: MSNBC changed its business strategy in the starting around 2006 to provide news with a more liberal slant, as detailed in Sanneh (2013), culminating in adopting the slogan “Lean Forward” in 2010.

Page 11: MSNBC closely tracks CNN initially, and then becomes consistently more liberal - though by much less than the gap between CNN and FNC - in the mid-2000’s.

Page 12: (Graph illustrates MSNBC's current left bias, comparable to that of Fox News' on the right. Fox News' conservative bias is already mentioned in the beginning of its Wikipedia page.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by AJKUSA (talk • contribs) 20:40, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism of MSNBC already has its own section. Why does it need to be in the lead? Why are you citing this academic paper(which seems to be original research)? 331dot (talk) 20:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ideological bias is mentioned in the beginning of Fox News' page. Both are major news media and are opposite in leaning but about equal in bias, as illustrated by the graph. I believe it is important to be neutral in how we allot allegations of bias, especially if both media are widely prevalent sources of information. Can you describe how the source counts as "original research"? It could be that I'm fairly new to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AJKUSA (talk • contribs) 20:56, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The source you give appears to be an academic paper- meaning it gives the findings of the author based on their own research. Did it appear in a peer-reviewed journal? It would be better if you had a source that analyzed what the paper said and reported on it- a secondary source. Wikipedia summarizes what independent reliable sources state about article subjects. There are many independent sources that discuss Fox News' political views. I would note that you aren't the first person to attempt to do this; you may find it helpful to review the talk page archives to see why the article is the way it is. Not saying what you want won't happen now- just why it hasn't happened until now. 331dot (talk) 21:01, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It appeared in American Economic Review. It has also been cited by Vox, Washington Post, and Bloomberg, each time to argue for Fox News' bias. The research itself doesn't seem biased, given that it reported on both political viewpoints and their equivalent media. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AJKUSA (talk • contribs) 21:16, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It’s a one word addition to the lead that is accurate so it should stay Dy3o2 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:12, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Protected page request the term 'liberal' is not part of the stable version of the lede nor have any reasonable arguments been put forward why it would be DUE for the lede; I would therefore request that the term be removed pending a conclusion from the discussion here. Newimpartial (talk) 14:35, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. The page was protected on the version (stable or otherwise) in which I encountered. El_C 14:38, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Could you revert the page to the version in which the "liberal" description is cited (my most recent revision)? Someone must have removed it before you protected the page. AJKUSA (talk) 14:51, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Please sign your comments. El_C 14:49, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for signing, appreciate it. El_C 14:52, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
El_C, your response to the two protected page requests you have received suggests some BIAS, no? Your rationale for retaining "liberal" was that it was part of the version you happened to protect, but then you added the citation that is (a) controversial per Talk and (b) not part of the version you happened to protect (nor the stable version). Inconsistent, at least. Newimpartial (talk) 15:38, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's no bias. As an aside, I have protected CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC for a week, all on the versions in which I encountered. Adding a previous reference to the current version, which seems to have been lost in the edit war, seems sensible enough for me. Please feel free to appeal my decision in any forum you see fit. El_C 15:41, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I know better than to try to appeal a WP:WRONGVERSION issue, but there is obvious FALSEBALANCE involved in protecting those three articles as if they represented similar cases - the RS don't treat them the same at all, as a rule. Newimpartial (talk) 15:49, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The three articles were protected (all on the versions in which I encountered) due to edit warring, which is disruptive to an article's stability. El_C 15:51, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All of this logic is faulty. For pages 3 and 6: 'more' doesn't mean 'is'. A tire is more foodlike than a tire iron, that doesn't make it food. For page 12 the gap is almost half as broad as the gap between Fox News. Those aren't comparable, if you want to label MSNBC as 'slightly liberal' then we can talk, but calling it outright liberal is not reasonable. Wigglewortz (talk) 13:42, 4 January 2020 (UTC)Mr. Wiggles.[reply]

And by "independent sources" you mean equally far left MSM outlets and publications who obviously don't call each other out on their bias, wikipedia is a far left propaganda source it's become a joke, that the alleged bias of Fox is in the lead but that of MSNBC is not is proof positive that wikipedia is not neutral or objective but is now run by left wing ideologues hence the locks on every subject that is even remotely political.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1006:b06a:bbab:0:4e:fc8:3f01 (talk)

Wikipedia does not claim to be free of bias. Any bias in independent reliable sources will be reflected in Wikipedia. This is not a secret. The "locks" on some articles are not to prevent any viewpoint, but to prevent disruption by editors of all types and views. 331dot (talk) 11:41, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MSNBC needs to have the same type of final lead as fox. Guitarguy2323 (talk) 23:54, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Liberal" in the lead?

Is American Economic Review article sufficient to support "liberal" label in lead?

I do not believe that cited AER article, which categorizes MSNBC for the purpose of a broad statistical analysis, is sufficient to support labeling MSNBC "liberal" in the lead. It is in the nature of such studies that categories are applied in a way that's unbiased on average, knowing that for any individual element of the sample, it will deviate from the defined norm. To support "liberal" in the lead, we would need a recent study of the activities of MSNBC and an evaluation of the components and an assignment of any labels to individual aspects or activities of its operations. The current reference appears to be a cherrypicked, UNDUE, mention of the tag "liberal" for our purposes. A more likely source for such a label would be an RS publication concerned specifically with media, journalism, or political affairs. SPECIFICO talk 17:41, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that it is necessary to stay politically neutral when talking about the biases of news media. For the sake of consistency, we should look at both sides (Fox News and MSNBC) and their page's reference(s) to supposed bias. The AER article was published relatively recently in 2017 and found results of bias on both sides, while looking at each company's history, impact, branding, and coverage. The two references supporting Fox News' "conservative" label were articles published in 2007 and 2010, respectively. Keep in mind also that the 2007 article solely focused on Fox News and its impact on voters, so I would also be concerned with it being neither recent nor focused in its research. I fail to see how the AER article was "cherrypicked," considering that its findings were used to argue for Fox News' conservative bias (a legitimate claim, mind you) in Vox, Washington Post, and Bloomberg. AJKUSA (talk) 18:58, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That really does not address the specific concerns I presented in my post above. SPECIFICO talk 20:04, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It does. For example, you point out that categories are applied in a way that seems unbiased. On page 12, a continuous graph plots the evident bias of Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC. It doesn't mention absolutes, although the graph clearly shows a similar, but opposite, bias between Fox News and MSNBC (CNN leans left of center). I fail to see how the article isn't focused, either. It mentions a variety of factors, including demographics, voting patterns, branding, and coverage. If the article was cherry-picked, one could assume that there would be a plurality of studies that prove the opposite, while maintaining a level of objectivity when looking at different media sources. AJKUSA (talk) 17:17, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I did not use the word "seems". Indeed I tried to make clear that I was using "unbiased" in the technical sense of a statistically unbiased estimate. You again replied in an unresponsive way, and you do not appear to understand the methodology or motivations of studies such as the one presented in the AER article. It's not up to you to order the world to do statistical studies on this or that so that a perfect abundance of sources can be scrutinized by WP editors. In fact it's typical of non-mainstream or fringe views that there are very few sources on any aspect of the subject. That's why it's easy for an editor to cherrypick one to support an off-kilter view. The opposite is the case: If MSNBC shows "liberal bias" it should be easy for you to find many mainstream RS citations to support such text in the article. See whether you can find any and report back. Until then, please drop the stick. SPECIFICO talk 18:33, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is quite unnecessary to state this in the lead, as we already covered in the earlier section above with user "Glassbones". This "new" user AJKUSA took all of 12 minutes from account creation to 1st edit, has edited nothing else but this article and talk page, and also has a curious habit of marking his edit-warring edits as "minor", but not his talk page edits, suggestive deliberateness. Let's no indulge a single-purpose account's antics, please. ValarianB (talk) 19:27, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The only reason I opened this thread is that I will not be the one who repeatedly reverts this UNDUE non-V content. This article is not widely followed. It's got many other problems as well. SPECIFICO talk 21:00, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I take issue with labeling this network liberal, as there is no universally agreed-on definition of liberalism based on my experience. It may mean one who upholds individual liberty (in the manner of classical liberalism or libertarianism), or as American jargon it may mean one who advocates both social freedom and social welfare or socialism, in which case it should be referred to as progressivism.
On the issue of labeling MSNBC as progressive, I will agree that one must find numerous independent high-quality sources, and a significant majority of them must say that it is progressive. Certainly a single source is not enough. At this point, it may be worth noting in the lead that its talk shows normally lean progressive, but if we can find numerous sources of which nearly all describe the news channel as being generally progressive just as there are numerous sources calling Fox News conservative, I see no reason why it should not be in the article's first paragraph. GaɱingFørFuɲ365 02:52, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, there are attempts to cram "liberal" into the lead, when there is little support from non-single purpose accounts on this page to do so. ValarianB (talk) 12:56, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Liberal" is an outstanding example of loaded language. This article about a TV news network is not the place for mincing fine distinctions between various definitions of liberalism. That it is a snarl word is beyond dispute; its emotional connotations are used to marginalize and disparage people seen as not sufficiently conservative/right-wing/authoritarian, recently plainly shown in Sen. McSally's tone of voice when dismissing a CNN reporter as a "liberal hack."
I recognize that this is a Wikipedia article's talk page, not a forum for political discussion. The paragraph above is offered to show that "liberal" has multiple definitions, and is too loaded to fit compactly into the lead section without a lot of clarifying text. Just plain Bill (talk) 14:29, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

New York Times, The Atlantic, and Politico proposed sources for "liberal"

I don't even think MSNBC itself makes any secret of the fact it is geared towards a liberal audience. Since I have now reliably sourced to multiple sources that wikipedia considers to be highly reputable, there is no reason not to include the fact that MSNBC is liberal. In fact, less well-known sources are used in the Fox News article as references for the conservative label.

--Rusf10 (talk) 15:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is not, and never has been, the point. Mainstream outlets leaning left/liberal/progressive is the normal, default state of the media, there is no cause or reason to state something so blindingly, stupidly obvious in the introduction of this article. It would be about as useful as changing the lead of Donald Trump to "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current white president of the United States". ValarianB (talk) 16:15, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's not how it works. The New York Times puts the word "liberal" in a headline, so if it was so obvious (as you claim) then why would they feel the need to inform their readers? (and why can't we inform our readers as well). I have provided multiple reliable sources that also lean left themselves, but they felt it was necessary to label MSNBC as liberal (which I interpret to mean they view it as more liberal than their own organizations). Also, please do not bring race into this discussion, I find it inappropriate.--Rusf10 (talk) 16:26, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid that is how it works. Headlines are meant to be sensationalist and eye-grabbing. The Wikipedia sources itself to content, not headlines. But again; not the point here. ValarianB (talk) 16:31, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is not just headlines, The Atlantic calls MSNBC "liberal alternative to CNN" and the "liberal-leaning network". Politico calls MSNBC "liberal answer to Fox News" and "the liberal network."--Rusf10 (talk) 16:45, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, in terms of the sources provided, the first two are "analysis" pieces, i.e. op-ed content, and any labels they use would require in-text attribution. The third source is mostly concerned with MSNBC's liberal audience, not its content, and certainly would not by itself justify the label being used in Wikivoice, much less in the lede. And all three sources date from 2012-2015, which would not justify the label being used in the present tense even if they represented a consensus of RS at the time (which they do not).
TL; DR - no, these sources do not support the proposed label. Newimpartial (talk) 16:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
[ec] Reaching back five to eight years to find sources for a current claim? OK... Also, the most recent one, that Politico article from 2015, said that the Chris Hayes show would "almost certainly be replaced." The last time I looked, he still has that 8PM slot pretty well sewed up. Stale inaccurate reporting is not a good look here. "Liberal" is still a snarl word used by the right to smear their opposition in January 2020. To be used with a NPOV, it will need to be cast with precision, needing more words than this article has room for. Just plain Bill (talk) 16:50, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So the sources are too old??? MSNBC was liberal, but now is not? That's ridiculous. However, I will provide so newer sources anyway:

All of these sources are recent and I intentionally avoided any sources that could possibly be described as conservative. What is clear is that MSNBC is widely recognized as liberal, even among publications that themselves also lean to the left.--Rusf10 (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How will you bring clarity to which of the various senses of "liberal" apply to MSNBC? How do you propose to defuse its thought-stopping emotional connotations? Just plain Bill (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(Edit conflict) Rusf, the first and third of your new sources are Op-eds, again, and the second one is an off-hand mention in Snopes, which is not even addressing the issue of MSNBC's political invitation in the posting. I feel as though I'm watching someone throw spaghetti against the wall; there is nothing near DUE, here.
You are aware that the last source you used is using the label liberal derisively, right? It's DISPROVING that they are liberal... and the second last is about how they're attacking a left wing candidate, that's again, disproving that they are left wing... and the first one now that I look at it is not seriously using the liberal lable to describe MSNBC, and continuously implies that it's not in fact liberal... Are you just lying, or did you have your brain's right lobe removed? Because you just gave us three cases of how MSNBC is NOT a liberal aparatus.Wigglewortz (talk) 07:07, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In any case, per WP:LEDE, we should be discussing these sources in relation to the treatment of MSNBC's politics in the body of the article, first, not as a second front in an edit war over the lede. Newimpartial (talk) 17:21, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You (and thus far only you, until the SPA's return) are simply casting a wide net out there and coming back with anyone & every google hit for "MSNBC liberal". There's no dispute that they are, the issue is that it isn't relevant or important enough to state it in the lead. The body of the article covers MSNBC's leanings already, that is sufficient. You act like information is being hidden or censored here, which is patently silly and untrue. ValarianB (talk) 17:28, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Surely, if Fox News is described as conservative in its lead with weaker sourcing, than it is appropriate to describe MSNBC as liberal. MSNBC's clearly has marketed itself as a liberal network and it should be mentioned in the lead.--Rusf10 (talk) 17:50, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You're simply repeating yourself now. The case for Fox News is far stronger, as it is sourced to scholarly sources, so you lose on that attempted point. Fox news is an outlier in media, which is why it is more fitting to describe what they are up-front as it is a far, far more remarked-upon situation. ValarianB (talk) 19:33, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Now, you're just moving the goal post. First, the complaint was this couldn't be reliably sourced, then it was the sources are too old, and now the sources don't count because they weren't written by scholars? But, there seems to be an unlimited amount of sources available that call MSNBC liberal, so here are some scholarly ones.
  • Exposure to Ideological News and Perceived Opinion Climate: Testing the Media Effects Component of Spiral-of-Silence in a Fragmented Media Landscape The International Journal of Press/Politics, 2014, Vol 19(1), written by Yariv Tsfati (PhD, Annenberg School for Communication, University of Pennsylvania)and Natalie Jomini Stroud (PhD, Annenberg School for Communication, University of Pennsylvania, 2006)- "Based on previous content analytic research, Fox News was classified as a conservative-leaning outlet and CNN and MSNBC as liberal-leaning outlets"
  • Sarah Sobieraj & Jeffrey M. Berry (Tufts University) (2011) From Incivility to Outrage: Political Discourse in Blogs, Talk Radio, and Cable News, Political Communication, 28:1, 19-41, DOI: 10.1080/10584609.2010.542360- "Since MSNBC shifted to a more distinctly liberal persona in its evening shows, the network's ratings have improved, and it now draws as many or more viewers than its CNN competitors" & "Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, and Keith Olbermann on the liberal MSNBC..."
  • Partisan Enclaves or Shared Media Experiences? A Network Approach to Understanding Citizens’ Political News Environments, Journal of Broadcasting & Electronic Media 60(2), 2016, pp. 248–268 by Brian E. Weeks(Ph.D., Ohio State University), Thomas B. Ksiazek(Ph.D., Northwestern University), & R. Lance Holbert(Ph.D., University of Wisconsin). "The semi-periphery includes several general interest outlets and the liberal partisan outlet, MSNBC",

If you need more sources, just let me know.--Rusf10 (talk) 23:01, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of these three scholarly sources, the first two do not clearly identify MSNBC as "liberal" in the authors' editorial voice. For the third source, there is the ambiguity I noted previously between the "liberal partisan" orientation of the network is of its viewers or its producers. So none of these really bear on the proposed change to the lede, and not many are even useful for the body IMO. Newimpartial (talk) 02:03, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"liberal partisan outlet" clearly refers to the network itself, there's no ambiguity. I've now provided 9 quality sources (and I can provide even more). You just don't want to accept the fact that it is a liberal network. Here's a challenge, find reliable sources that describe MSNBC as "centrist" or "moderate"--Rusf10 (talk) 05:52, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The term "liberal partisan outlet" is ambiguous-it could he by, for or releasing liberal partisans. And you have produced 9 sources, most of which are are Op-eds by dubious experts, and almost none of which refer to the network unambiguously as "liberal". Why don't you try to add sources to the relevant part of this article rather than engaging in a poorly sourced, one against many capture the flag operation on the lede.
The quality of sourcing for "centrist" or "moderate" might be relevant if we used the term to describe MSNBC in the article, in wikivoice. We don't... Newimpartial (talk) 12:46, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MSNBC is absolutely not liberal. Chuck Todd is a neoliberal and Chris Matthews is a crazy conservative boomer. Neither of these two would be hosts on prime time MSNBC if it was a "liberal" network. – numbermaniac 01:07, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of notable persons

I have removed this from the article pending discussion as to what it is trying to convey, the criteria for inclusion, and the names on it.

Notable personalities

Edit Request: HD Launch Date

The HD launch date is incorrect. Currently, the sentence reads:

On June 29, 2015, MSNBC launched a 1080i high-definition feed.

The date was actually June 29, 2009. [1]

There were also later launch dates on different providers, but all were in 2009. [2]

Bradisbell312 (talk) 02:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/msnbc-hd-to-debut-in-june_n_182657
  2. ^ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/msnbc-goes-hd-launches-dy_n_222167

Put Progressive in the Lead

MSNBC should have Progressive News Outlet if Fox is Conservative. Its blatantly obvious that they are Progressive and many outlets have described the people there as Progressive as well. Needs to have the same type of final lead as Fox.Guitarguy2323 (talk) 00:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's like saying the sky is blue or water is wet. Fox News is the outlier, which is why it is characterized as "conservative" in the opening. ValarianB (talk) 01:45, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

MSNBC is also the outlier. It basically is the mouthpiece of the DNC at least the other networks try to be unbiased. But Fox and MSNBC are outliers. MSNBC should be classified as "Progressive"Guitarguy2323 (talk) 19:51, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it could be mentioned in the article somewhere if there are enough referenced sources, but I don't agree to define the channel as leftist or progressive, let alone on the first line.Juangatti (talk) 20:40, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As someone pointed above main publications, NYT, Atlantic etc have called the Network Liberal or Progressive. Should be open and shut case. So Progressive in the leadGuitarguy2323 (talk) 21:34, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Have you reviewed the prior discussions on issues similar to your request? 331dot (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes and people don't like to be neutral so....Guitarguy2323 (talk) 02:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fair & Balanced

If Fox News is described as: "Fox News has been described as practicing biased reporting in favor of the Republican Party, the George W. Bush and Donald Trump administrations, and conservative causes while portraying the Democratic Party in a negative light."

MSDNC should be described in the same way: "MSDNC has been described as practicing biased reporting in favor of the Democratic Party, the Barack Obama and Joe Biden administration, and liberal causes while portraying the Republican Party in a negative light." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.215.190 (talk) 06:26, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your use of "MSDNC" suggests to me you aren't attempting to be a neutral party here. Wikipedia summarizes what independent reliable sources state, so please offer any sources you have that make the claim you do. 331dot (talk) 08:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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