Talk:Electronic cigarette

RFC Are these sources the same?

RFC: Are these sources the same?
There has been removal of a referenced claim from the article.[1] During a move the claim "and there is relatively low risk to others from the vapor." was removed. The edit comments says "remove duplication". There is a talk page section on the topic found here.[2].

The sources in question, both agencies are part of the UK department of health NHS Smokefree site from the British National Health Service and the PHE Report from Public Health England.

Policies that control WP:VER WP:RS and WP:MEDRS AlbinoFerret 06:36, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Sorry not seeing what is wrong with this dif [3]? The content was just moved? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:02, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

A claim was removed, perhaps you missed that. But the specific question is are the sources the same. AlbinoFerret 23:25, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Please discuss below in the discussion section

Are the sources the same or different?

• Different sources They are clearly not the same source. They are from two different agencies with distinct url's. While they may say similar things the wording is not the same so one is not a copy of the other. AlbinoFerret 06:53, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
• Different sources,, clearly While the conclusions are the same, the wording is not, and it never hurts to have statements from multiple sources anyway, as long as they are high quality. And they certainly are in this case. LesVegas (talk) 17:12, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
• The websites are related. The UK NHS website says "Smokefree is a public health campaign initiated and supported by Public Health England, an executive agency of the Department of Health"[4] The NHS website was created by PHE. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

You should make up your mind whether it is related or not.--TMCk (talk) 19:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Should we then remove all the duplicative findings from the US government agencies like the CDC and FDA? Should we remove similar statements from different parts of the WHO? AlbinoFerret 19:40, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Thats unresponsive to the question, the question is are they the same, not are they similar. AlbinoFerret 22:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Does it matter? If it's the same claim supported by independent sources then we have two references at the end of the claim. Why waste time with an RfC if the only difference is either 1 or 2 references at the end of the same claim? CFCF 💌 📧 22:47, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• They look related to me You are welcome to make your case they are separate sources, as you have been all along Cloudjpk (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Thats unresponsive to the question, the question is are they the same, not are they similar. AlbinoFerret 22:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Different sources They base their views and opinions on the same background, and thus come to similar/same conclusion, just as many other such agencies and organizations do. Why should there be/is there a different standard between pro and contra organizations? --Kim D. Petersen 06:34, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• Different sources It doesn't matter that they reference the same study. These sources use multiple fact-checking tools and are independently reliable sources of information. --Iamozy (talk) 19:27, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Should we remove claims from the articles that cover the similar things regardless of who created the source?

This question is too broad. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• No We need a simple across the board rule. Instead of allowing editors to pick and choose what claims they want to add that are similar but remove others they disagree with. AlbinoFerret 19:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Of course the question is too broad. Editors apply judgment. Cloudjpk (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Idealy we shouldn't single cite individual statements/papers, but instead strive to summarize the literature with a nod towards notable outliers, as per Wikipedia's pillars. But since this isn't done in this article, which instead consists mainly from individually cherry-picked sentences from papers - then the answer is No. --Kim D. Petersen 06:38, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• No Doing anything else invites gaming. We need to be consistent and should never allow cherry picking to take place with regard to claims from articles that cover similar things like this. LesVegas (talk) 19:13, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

• Consolidate If two reliable sources agree on a statement, say that. But there's no need to state a single claim in two separate instances. --Iamozy (talk) 19:33, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Should we remove claims from the articles if they are from the same group or author and discuss similar things?

It would be better to provide a specific example. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

The pages are full of duplicative claims, read it. AlbinoFerret 19:12, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment This should be applied the same across the articles, regardless of the conclusions. We should not pick out things we disagree with to remove. AlbinoFerret 19:36, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Specifics needed here in my opinion. Cloudjpk (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Again in an ideal world, we shouldn't have an eye for individual papers/authors, but instead focus on what the weight of the literature tells us. Instead there should be summarization of what the literature in general says about particular subgroupings of particulars about the topic. So yes: we should, but currently we can't. --Kim D. Petersen 06:41, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• Comment MEDRS is already clear about this: editors should not reject high quality sources because of content or conclusions, but instead focus on the quality of the source. LesVegas (talk) 19:15, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Should we remove sourced claims if they are based on findings from other sources?

It depends on the claim and the sourcing. This is another vague question. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• No That allows gaming of the system and editors picking and choosing to remove things they disagree with. AlbinoFerret 19:13, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
• Confused about this question. But again, see my two other answers: We should summarize the literature - not focus on individual papers/authors. --Kim D. Petersen 06:43, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• Comment is there an example of this having occurred in the past? I too am confused about this question. LesVegas (talk) 19:17, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

No, LesVegas so far we have lots of duplicate findings and I cant remember any others having been removed. AlbinoFerret 23:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, every article and talk page should have some reasonable consistency. It's unfortunate that parameters like these need to be put in place to keep editors from removing duplications when an editor just feels like it, but I entirely think it's reasonable. I will say it again: duplications should never be used for multiple government agencies and should only be removed in cases of much lower source-status, such as systematic reviews all the way down to primary studies. But as a general rule, duplications don't need to be removed and I think only should be considered in cases of lower level sources. This was clearly not such a case. LesVegas (talk) 00:34, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

It seems that there is some confusion, British National Health Service is quite different from Public Health England. They are not the same agency. They are both agencies of the UK department of health. Just like in the US we have a Department of Health, and the FDA, CDC, ect. From the Public Health England wikipedia article

Public Health England (PHE) is an executive agency of the Department of Health in the United Kingdom that began operating on 1 April 2013. Its formation came as a result of reorganisation of the National Health Service (NHS) in England outlined in the Health and Social Care Act 2012. It took on the role of the Health Protection Agency, the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse and a number of other health bodies.[1]

AlbinoFerret 23:13, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, claims by the NIH are different from those by the FDA or CDC, for instance. Governmental bodies often have nuanced statements that differ slightly depending on context (and that's interesting and helpful) and even when they are exactly uniform, multiple such sources should still be used in tandem to illustrate consensus. LesVegas (talk) 19:21, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

• I have requested a close at WP:ANRFC listing this one and the related one below. AlbinoFerret 19:41, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Questions added after the start of the RfC above

Should we remove or keep the text? Is the text redundant or different? QuackGuru (talk) 23:39, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Should we remove text sourced to the UK NHS website if it is repetitive?

• Remove duplication. In 2015 a report commissioned by Public Health England concluded that e-cigarettes "release negligible levels of nicotine into ambient air with no identified health risks to bystanders".[99] They found that their safety won't be fully known for many years, and there is relatively low risk to others from the vapor.[97][5] The part "release negligible levels of nicotine into ambient air with no identified health risks to bystanders" and "there is relatively low risk to others from the vapor" is repetitive. They virtually mean the same thing but in different words. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
• No We dont do this with any other source that is in the articles. When multiple sources come to the same conclusion or are based on other sources they remain. I will add they only appear to be duplication because they were moved together from their orignal location in Harm reduction. AlbinoFerret 19:08, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Remove duplication Seems much the same source saying much the same thing. Of course it doesn't follow that all other sources are repetitive. When different sources come to the same conclusion, that's hardly the same as the same source saying the same thing twice. Cloudjpk (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• Loaded question - it implies that there is repetition. Rather invalidates the RfC. (defaults to No) --Kim D. Petersen 06:18, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• No There are many reasons for duplication or partial duplication of citation or external opinion. Duplication may be justified for example to indicate the range of opinions or support (say from different times, places, or schools), or to include citations of sources that overlap but are not identical. Removal should require individual justification, such as for when someone strings together half a dozen assorted citations to lend support to a contentious point, not merely because one editor thinks that one citation is on principle adequate, and two must accordingly be excessive. JonRichfield (talk) 08:19, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
• No I have looked at the text and it might be nice to rewrite it completely to make a non-redundant, stable, cogent, watertight document, but by the nature of the topic and situation that will not happen. The material is not unduly repetitive because its degree of repetition conveys some of the climate of opinion in different bodies concerned in the matter. It would be simplistic assume that a single reference to a single position of a single source amounts to the same as invoking more than one source in a matter open to opinion and position rather than undebatably rigid fact. If it were a matter instead of tediously quoting a long roster of sources, that would be another matter. JonRichfield (talk) 04:53, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
• No Different bodies even coming to the same conclusion illustrates consensus. Where I would suggest duplications should be removed are in lower level claims, such as systematic reviews, which often go either way, and are often cherry-picked by editors with a strong bias. But, no, consensus statements or statements by national health bodies, even if the statements are exactly the same, only further illustrate consensus about a claim and these are our best sources and should, in fact, be used liberally. LesVegas (talk) 19:35, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
• Per Petersen: "Loaded question - it implies that there is repetition. Rather invalidates the RfC. (defaults to No)". Not enough information has been presented to determine whether even a single citation is redundant, much less whether a whole swath of them are.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:40, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Should we remove repetitive text from the UK NHS website when there is another claim from the Public Health England website?

• Remove duplication. AlbinoFerret stated "By moving them together you created the problem you want to fix."[6] I came to the conclusion it is redundant text. "In 2015, the Public Health England released a report stating that e-cigarettes are estimated to be 95% less harmful than smoking,[84]" "The UK National Health Service stated in 2015 that e-cigarettes have approximately 5% of the risk of tobacco cigarettes.[86]" Wherever the text I highlighted in bold is placed it is still duplication. Both are from related UK organisations. The "Positions of medical organizations" section is meant to be a WP:SUMMARY. It is not a summary when the "approximately 5% of the risk of tobacco cigarettes" claim is not in the main article. It is WP:UNDUEWEIGHT to include both. QuackGuru (talk) 18:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. First you remove the part from the positions article and then you come here to say it doesn't belong here because it's not over there?--TMCk (talk) 19:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I initially added it but I came to the conclusion it was repetitive. QuackGuru (talk) 19:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

• No We dont do this with any other source that is in the articles. When multiple sources come to the same conclusion or are based on other sources they remain. AlbinoFerret 19:09, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

But are the two sources in question really multiple sources? Seems like much the same source. Perhaps I'm missing something here. Cloudjpk (talk) 22:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

The British National Health Service (NHS) is quite different from Public Health England (PHE). They are both agencies in the UK department of health. AlbinoFerret 23:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

That's the case you're welcome to make. Do they have different missions, funding, purposes, clientele, activities, staff? Would it be possible for them to come to different conclusions? And so on. It's a question of these sources; not a broad question of editing policy.Cloudjpk (talk) 01:42, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

The answer to these concerns is yes they are diffrent. Much like the FDA and CDC in the US. AlbinoFerret 01:51, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• Just as loaded a question. NHS != PHE according to (amongst others) QuackGuru, thus the two are not the same and statements similar but not same => No. --Kim D. Petersen 06:20, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• Remove duplication. The sources are similar if not identical; the conclusions are identical. Cloudjpk (talk) 06:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

• No, for the same reasons as AlbinoFerret above, plus what I said in the immediately previous sub-question. In any case, removing duplication may sound fine, but not when the duplication is relevant and functional. The articles we write are not permitted to be essays (OR and similar religious war cries) and we accordingly are compelled to limit ourselves to citations that might entail redundancy. JonRichfield (talk) 04:53, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
• No Repetitive text and repetitive claims possibly shouldn't be used if we have two similar claims from lower level systematic reviews, of which there are now many for E-cigs and vapors, but should always be done when it's high level governmental health authorities making claims, even when the claims happen to be identical, because that illustrates consensus amongst public health authorities analyzing meta-data. LesVegas (talk) 19:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Why not simply say that the conclusion is endorsed by the two separate sources? If you read the sources, both the statement that e-cigs have 5% the risk of normal cigs and have 95% less risk than normal cigs are just two way to state the same conclusion. Stating it two separate times with the wording slightly different implies that the two agencies conducted independent risk studies and came to the same conclusion. In reality, they both fact-checked and endorsed the same study. --Iamozy (talk) 19:52, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• No, they're difference sources, of the kind we need in order to establish the breadth with which the claim in question is made and supported. See WP:OVERCITE for a good rundown on when actual citation overkill is happening.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:40, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
• Consolidate When there are two reliable sources that agree on the same thing, we only state it once and cite the two sources. We don't say it twice two different ways. --Iamozy (talk)

Discussion for text

I started these new questions because the questions for the other RfC were too vague IMO. According to User:AlbinoFerret the conclusions are the same. Correct me if I am wrong. QuackGuru (talk) 23:39, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

So its ok when you add duplicative conclusions [7] but not others? AlbinoFerret 17:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I was in the process of improving the text. I removed the duplication and SYN. I did the same for this page. I recently removed a sentence that was redundant. Do you agree with removing the redundancy? User:AlbinoFerret, are you still claiming that adding redundant text improves the page? QuackGuru (talk) 19:27, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

The way you word that question "are you still claiming that adding redundant text improves the page?" is a linguistic trap that misrepresents all that I have said. That you have now removed some duplication is a good thing, remove a bunch more. I do not believe that the NHS is a duplication, and moving it caused any resemblance to duplication, The statement belongs in harm reduction and the deleted part restored. AlbinoFerret 00:35, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

The text is still redundant. QuackGuru (talk) 05:42, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Revert 19.11.15

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

@Johnbod: Smoking cessation: the article is stuffed with contradictory sentences one after the other - why pick on this one -- Might as well start somewhere. Are you happy for me to fix this stuff or would you prefer that I tagged all the contradictory sentences for you to fix?—S Marshall T/C 17:27, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

This text is already in the Harm reduction section. QuackGuru (talk) 20:36, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it is, but "Vaping may have potential in harm reduction compared to smoking.[12]" is. I'd be happy to move the disputed sentence to "Harm Reduction", removing the one I just quoted, but keeping the reference for the new text.

In general, where significant chunks of text are being addressed, I think new drafts (up to a para at a time say), should be proposed here for discussion. Johnbod (talk) 02:07, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

See Electronic cigarette#Harm_reduction. "As of 2014 promotion of vaping as a harm reduction aid is premature,[20] but in an effort to decrease tobacco related death and disease, e-cigarettes have a potential to be part of the harm reduction strategy.[21]"

"Vaping may have potential in harm reduction compared to smoking.[12]" This text is redundant. It can be deleted.

There is a summary of "Harm reduction" in the lede. QuackGuru (talk) 02:48, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

• Johnbod, the reason I fought that colossal Arbcom case was so that I would be allowed to change the article. No, I'm not going to submit my edits to a committee process before I make them. If you don't like what I write, change it. If you've given any specific and intelligible reasons for that revert, I haven't seen them yet, so perhaps you could point that out to me.—S Marshall T/C 08:47, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

• And then you revert me, as you just did. And then we end up here. We might as well do that from the start, and not sentence by sentence - that way of doing things is half the trouble with the article as it stands. Take it from someone with a lot more experience here than you, re-drafting section by section is the way to go in an article like this. Otherwise someone just rewrites your rewrites, and only 1-2 people can be bothered to follow the edit-history, and no-one except the author will bother to defend any version. Johnbod (talk) 09:00, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

• I don't recall reverting you, Johnbod. I recall reverting one edit of Blueraspberry's. I think you're confused about this, which is understandable given the volume of editing recently. I see that you don't want me to go through fixing the contradictions so I'll tag them for you to fix.—S Marshall T/C 11:07, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

• Probably. Please don't bother on my account - I'm unlikely to do anything about them that way. The article is full of contradictions because the sources are. The way to fix that is not just to remove things, but to redraft a balanced narrative that explains the issues and the different statements, and everybody editing the page directly at the same time won't achieve that. Johnbod (talk) 11:45, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
• "As of 2014, their usefulness in tobacco harm reduction is unclear,[20] but they have a potential to be part of the strategy to decrease tobacco related death and disease.[21]" This is the current text in the lede. It would be confusing to place both sources at the end of the sentence. Both sources do not verify the same text. Sources usually disagree on this topic but that does not mean there is anything to fix. I disagree with adding a tag. QuackGuru (talk) 18:59, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm disappointed, rather than hurt, to learn that scant decade or so of service and my paltry hundred-odd article creations aren't sufficient for me to edit the article without the supervision of more mature and experienced editors. In my callow youth and inexperience, I respectfully submit the following proposal to the editing committee for approval:-

New paragraph, headed Nicotine yield.

Smoking an average traditional cigarette yields between 0.5 and 1.5 mg of nicotine.(source). The amount of nicotine in a cloud of e-cigarette vapour is widely variable and estimates based on the studies available to date need to be treated with caution (same source). EU regulations cap the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid at a maximum of 20mg/mL. This is an arbitrary limit based on limited data (source).

This new paragraph would go somewhere around the "construction" section. It also belongs in our horrible, horrible fork called electronic cigarette aerosol (which amusingly fails to quantify the nicotine concentration in the vapour, although it certainly has a lot to say about the levels of formaldehyde, carcinogens and lead). If, that is, that's one of the forks that survives AfD.—S Marshall T/C 20:04, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

It's nonsense to compare an average traditional cigarette yields between 0.5 and 1.5 mg of nicotine with the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid! The tobacco of an traditional cigarette contains ca. 14mg nicotine (1.1-2.9% of dry weight of tobacco SOURCE: Click). You have to compare either the amount of nicotine in liquid and tobacco or the amount of nicotine absorbed from liquid and tobacco. You can't compare apples with pears - Mixing up things is misleading! BTW: The only thing that counts is the nicotine delivery respectively blood plasma concentration of nicotine.

• Effect of an electronic nicotine delivery device (e cigarette) on desire to smoke and withdrawal, user preferences and nicotine delivery: randomised cross-over trial.
• Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: comparison between first and new-generation devices. (Hint: Look at Fig. 4, Click me)--Merlin 1971 (talk) 11:07, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I like the idea S Marshall, go for it. AlbinoFerret 00:30, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry. That's a cogent point well made. I should have been less facetious and more careful; a lesson for me there. (My excuse is that I was stung). Let's try this:

Smoking an average traditional cigarette yields between 0.5 and 1.5 mg of nicotine.(source). The amount of nicotine in a cloud of e-cigarette vapour is widely variable and estimates based on the studies available to date need to be treated with caution (same source). Vapers tend to reach lower blood nicotine concentrations than smokers, particularly when the vapers are inexperienced or using earlier-generation devices (Nature source linked above). EU regulations cap the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid at a maximum of 20mg/mL, but this is an arbitrary limit based on limited data (source).

This would be a whole lot easier if other people could directly edit what I write, wouldn't it?—S Marshall T/C 00:36, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Better! Much better! :) How about a sentence that Vapers tend to reach the lower blood nicotine concentrations much slower than smokers?--Merlin 1971 (talk) 11:07, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I added the specific information about EU regulations to the construction page. For this page I added general information about the liquid concentrations. See "A cartridge may contain 0 to 20 mg of nicotine." If the other information is added to the construction section it should be added to the construction page body and lede. QuackGuru (talk) 01:47, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• No you don't, sunshine. We will not be going back to that old problem where I'm not allowed to change the article but when I start a talk page conversation QuackGuru pre-emptively makes changes before consensus is reached.—S Marshall T/C 02:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• @Merlin 1971: How about:-

  Smoking an average traditional cigarette yields between 0.5 and 1.5 mg of nicotine.(source). The amount of nicotine in a cloud of e-cigarette vapour is widely variable and estimates based on the studies available to date need to be treated with caution (same source). In practice vapers tend to reach lower blood nicotine concentrations than smokers, particularly when the vapers are inexperienced or using earlier-generation devices (nature source linked above). Tobacco smoke is absorbed into the bloodstream rapidly, and e-cigarette vapour is relatively slow in this regard (nature source linked above). EU regulations cap the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid at a maximum of 20mg/mL, but this is an arbitrary limit based on limited data (source). The nicotine concentration in an e-liquid is not a reliable guide to the amount of nicotine that reaches the bloodstream (source).

  Is the nicotine content of e-liquids regulated in the US?—S Marshall T/C 13:11, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• One minor thing: You'd need to drop the "in a cloud" (which is formed out of exhaled vapor) or replace it with (inhaled) aerosol. As for your question about US regulations, not yet.--TMCk (talk) 13:23, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• This article probably needs a glossary of technical vaping terms.—S Marshall T/C 14:43, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• Not e-cig specific. One wouldn't say "smoke cloud" either unless maybe when it is about second hand smoke.--TMCk (talk) 15:21, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• I would. I smoked for 25 years, and I used to talk about a cloud of smoke. Might be one of those American dialect things.—S Marshall T/C 15:54, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

A cloud is commonly a specific (usually) visible physical formation but we're getting off topic a bit (I guess).--TMCk (talk) 16:03, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• Next draft:-

  Nicotine yield

  Smoking a traditional cigarette yields between 0.5 and 1.5 mg of nicotine (source 1), but the nicotine content of the cigarette is only weakly correlated with the levels of nicotine in the smoker's bloodstream (source 2). Likewise the amount of nicotine in a puff of e-cigarette vapor is widely variable and estimates based on the studies currently published need to be treated with caution (source 2). In practice vapers tend to reach lower blood nicotine concentrations than smokers, particularly when the vapers are inexperienced or using earlier-generation devices (nature source linked above: source 3). Tobacco smoke is absorbed into the bloodstream rapidly, and e-cigarette vapor is relatively slow in this regard (source 3). EU regulations cap the concentration of nicotine in e-liquid at a maximum of 2% (20mg/mL), but this is an arbitrary ceiling based on limited data (source 4). In practice the nicotine concentration in an e-liquid is not a reliable guide to the amount of nicotine that reaches the bloodstream (source 5).

  Nearly there now?—S Marshall T/C 16:13, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• Looks good. Maybe add (now or later) common nicotine content besides (or instead) the EU specific regulation.--TMCk (talk) 16:31, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• The common nicotine content is in the article. See "A cartridge may contain 0 to 20 mg of nicotine.[79]" The specific info about EU regs is in the construction page. It is better to use common info on nicotine content. QuackGuru (talk) 16:49, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

• The common nicotine content of cartridges is not the common one for e-liquids in general. Maybe read "your" article on it?--TMCk (talk) 17:13, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Looks good to me. BTW: I like the way this open and productive discussion is developing!--Merlin 1971 (talk) 17:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Okay, if QuackGuru's is the only objection then please could someone pop that paragraph in below "construction" and above "health effects"? In a less fraught article I'd do that myself.—S Marshall T/C 17:57, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

And get reverted in one sweep or tiny little subtle edits? No no, it's all yours :) --TMCk (talk) 18:01, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

TMCk, you wrote "Looks good. Maybe add (now or later) common nicotine content besides (or instead) the EU specific regulation.--TMCk (talk) 16:31, 21 November 2015 (UTC)" Do you think EU specific regulation is too EU-centric? Would it be better to add a general claim instead? QuackGuru (talk) 18:05, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

I mean exactly what I said above.--TMCk (talk) 18:11, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Followup

Some of this should be worked into the Electronic cigarette aerosol article. I'm skeptical that the EU limit of 20 mg represents the upper limit of the range of concentrations in commonly available liquids, especially outside of the EU. That's too much coincidence to take seriously. In answer to a question toward the end, it'a not "EU-centric" to include info on the EU regs, though we would probably include other limits that have been enacted in large/influential jurisdictions. This kind of regulatory detail may be better at the aerosol article. Whether or not that will remain a separate article forever is an open question, but it is one for now, and should not be neglected, much less should the articles provide contradictory info or convey contradictory implications.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Were you canvassed here? AlbinoFerret 23:48, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

SMcCandlish's view is very welcome here. He's the kind of editor we need to attract to this topic.—S Marshall T/C 00:45, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I am not trying to drive anyone away, I just found it interesting that he showed up soon after QG posted on his talk page. AlbinoFerret 00:56, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Canvassed? No. I check in from time to time, though mostly was just observing while the RfArb was running. I was too late to get in on this RfC or whatever it was, because I've been super-busy with a server project, then Thanksgiving (the US version). I didn't even know the RfArb had closed, or that various clarifications and AE actions had been launched with regard to them, so it seemed wise to see what was going on after QG corrected me on the RfArb still being ongoing. I don't know why I wasn't notified of its closure. I found this RfC-thing after reviewing your ARCA request and QG's AE request (which I'm declining to get involved in). Had I known about it, I would have supported the editing direction it took and the outcome. I just think it leaves some issues open with regard to reams of detail being added here that more properly belong entirely in the aerosols article, copied to it, or mostly in it and summarized here. They should not WP:POVFORK even if some would like to see a merger (if anything, it just makes merging more difficult later).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. :) AlbinoFerret 03:44, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, I can produce sources that say that concentrations well in excess of 20mg are available. I haven't found a source that says exactly what range is available on general sale, unfortunately. Anyone got anything?—S Marshall T/C 00:49, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

6, 12, 18, 24 used to be the commonly sold strengths in the UK, as looking at any website would tell you, though with the new regulations coming a move to 12, 16, 20 seems to be happening. Much higher strengths are rarely seen in the UK, and designed for the tiny mix-your-own market, rather than actually using. I'd think 30 or 36 are the most anyone much would enjoy, though there's no accounting for Americans. Johnbod (talk) 04:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• I'm sure you're right about that. I don't think it would be a good idea to say so in the article without a source, though.—S Marshall T/C 11:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Are pp. 65-67 in the PHE Report what you want? I'm like a broken record suggesting people actually read the thing. Johnbod (talk) 13:07, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• That's ideal. Thank you!—S Marshall T/C 21:16, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Btw, I've just noticed that it seems the "EU upper limit" of 20mg only applies to unlicensed e-liquid. Medically-licensed products have no upper limit. I can see the logic, but it's still wierd. Johnbod (talk) 16:34, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

New article

See E-liquid. Do editors want to keep it or redirect it? I could expand it to include more information about the chemicals added to the liquid. QuackGuru (talk) 18:41, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

The article contains nothing but duplicative information from Construction and should be removed. Adding Safety information or other information from the articles to it would make it a coatrack and would duplicate information from that article. I know of no discussions of splitting off e-liquid from Construction and the pages creation without the same is a big problem. AlbinoFerret 19:10, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm inclined to keep it for now. It's obviously all just a copy now, but there is plenty of coverage of flavours (targeted at children or not), the market, strengths, regulation and so on that is far from fully covered at present in the other articles. But it needs to develop its own content. Johnbod (talk) 19:17, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

I think the section in Construction should be expanded first. There is a lot of room to expand it. At the moment it is unnecessary to have a separate. There may never be a need for a separate page. I don't have additional sources to expand the page. QuackGuru (talk) 19:25, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Johnbod, if its kept, I think we should remove the information from Construction. I never thought of eliquid as part of construction which imho should be more hardware related. Eliquid is more software. We could add a link to see also. AlbinoFerret 19:33, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

If anyone finds more sources please post them on the e-liquid talk page or help expand the page. It is a bit short. QuackGuru (talk) 18:33, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

• Obvious content fork of Electronic cigarette aerosol, to which it should be merged. And "e-liquid" is meaningless jargon to anyone who is not an electronic cigarette user (or who doesn't live right near a shop that specializes in them and uses this jargon in their window advertising). "E-juice" and "e-vapor" are the exact same topic, other than what state the material is in because it has or hasn't been used yet. We don't have separate articles on gasoline in a can and gasoline as it's being combusted in an engine, or beef as its being sliced for cooking and beef as it's coming out of the oven. "E-liquid" in the bottle is not a notable topic, as it doesn't do anything or have any effects. The aerosol is the notable topic, since it does and it's what all the research is about. In skimming E-liquid I cannot see a single thing in it that cannot be merged to Electronic cigarette aerosol, and doing so would make a notable improvement in said article. It could also merge in some other way [see below], though I think it's too much material to merge into the main Electronic cigarette article which is already getting unwieldy under WP:SUMMARY.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:48, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

  Better solution outlined at #differentsolution anchor in the "Discussion" section. Tl;dr: The aerosol article is actually redundant in its most important parts with the safety article; merging in that direction would leave only non-biomed info about the aerosol, which could be merged into the liquid article, and that article kept, with the aerosol one being the page that gets merged away. It's a cleaner way to get rid of one of the pages than merging from liquid to aerosol.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Merge The subjects are notable and can stand alone. There is room on WP for one small e-cig article WP:NOTPAPER AlbinoFerret 23:54, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
• Suport Merge. E-liquid is what is used to make the aerosol. Same topic. QuackGuru (talk) 01:06, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Opening a prolonged-discussion section so as not to WP:BLUDGEON.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• The material could be merged in some other way, e.g. to "Electronic cigarette liquid and aerosol", or even all into the main article at least for a while. The point is that we don't need vying articles for the same product as it is sitting on the shelf and being used. Even the pics are just examples of the marketing of what one puts into and gets out of the e-cig device. The more significant material from an encyclopedic standpoint is the composition and health information, but there's no reason to exclude the marketing information. There's just not a compelling reason for splitting that into a separate article. Imagine if we had, instead of Smokeless tobacco, "Smokeless tobacco pouches and snuff" to cover the packaging, and "Smokeless tobacco spit" to cover what comes out of that product and technically delivers the nicotine? The only reasons we have a separate Tobacco smoke article are a) there are separate articles on different forms of smoking, like cigars, cigarettes, pipes, hookas, and b) the amount of research material on tobacco smoke, both for smokers and secondarily, is huge, and there's also separate legislation on smoking as an activity (to keep smoke away from non-smokers) versus the regulation of sales of cigarettes, etc. To merge all of that into one article would not be feasible. We don't have that kind of situation here. We have a pretty large amount of material about e-cigs, large enough to support probably a split about chemical material (and its marketing and health effects) vs the device and its operation, just as we have separate articles on tobacco the material and various things like pipes and hookah and so on. I think there's some personality conflicts involved here. I've seen it alleged by various editors that Electronic cigarette aerosol is primarily the "owned" article of one editor, and see that editor claims that E-liquid is someone else's attempt to do likewise (and that some sockpuppetry has been involved). None of that seems relevant to whether we're producing good article content that is well organized. At this point, I'm starting to think it might be better to merge it all for a while into this article, sort it out, then work up a proper WP:SUMMARY split plan. However, I think the it would conclude in the end to split out the "stuff" from the "device" (particularly since there may be more devices than e-cigs in which the "stuff" can be used) and not have a pre-/post-use split in the "stuff" material.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:55, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

If it is not to be stand-alone I agree Electronic cigarette aerosol is the better place to put it, but since that term is surely far less well known than e-liquid (and most people still think it is "vapour") the name would certainly need changing. Actually there are dozens, if not hundreds, of very short articles relating to aspects of smoking, so that lengthy spiel backfires imo. Johnbod (talk) 04:04, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I'd be in favor of merging quite a few of those tobacco topics, too, but keep in mind that the volume of material involved about tobacco is about an order of magnitude larger, so many such merges wouldn't be doable. Another issue is that many of them are separate pages for long-term cultural reasons; a hookah isn't just some variant of a pipe, etc. There are no such consideration with a globally marketed product that's only been around a few years.

I don't quite see the rationale for merging both these e-cig–related pages to E-liquid. (This will be semi-long, too, because of the number of criteria in WP:AT.) It seems to be a WP:COMMONNAME argument, but that rubric applies to multiple names for the same topic (e.g. dipping tobacco vs. moist snuff, etc.), and is not always the logic that gets applied anyway ("dipping tobacco" is not actually the common name, but a WP:DESCRIPTDIS; there are so many names for that stuff that none of them are demonstrable to be the common one exception regionally, so a descriptive term was chosen; this problem is also why many plant species articles are at the scientific names instead of one of conflicting vernacular ones). Here we have multiple names for different states of the same subject material, which isn't quite the same thing as different names for the same subject. We only have articles on specific states of a material when they're independently notable of another state (Ice, Liquid nitrogen, Ground beef). There seems to be no notable use for "e-liquid" other than aerosolizing it. The most encyclopedic aspect of the topic is the aerosol, not what it looks like in cute packages people call "e-liquid" or "e-juice" (and for which the common name probably is the latter anyway). Cf. Incense; we don't have separate articles for the stick, cone, powder, resin, oil, etc. forms; the packaging isn't independently notable, the state of it in actual use as smoky stuff is the meat of the topic, and we secondarily cover how it is packaged and sold before use. The fact that so many people have been misled into thinking it's a vapor is a good reason to use the aerosol title, since this is an encyclopedia with an educational mission, and "vapor", like "juice", is a misnomer. Next, "e-liquid" is both jargon and an abbreviation, which we avoid in titles for severable reasons; we'd surely use "Electronic cigarette liquid" were the merge to run the other way, for WP:PRECISION and for WP:CONSISTENCY with the other articles in the series. It wouldn't present any WP:RECOGNIZABILITY problems (the RM to rename Electronic cigarette aerosol to use "vapor" concluded that as well with regard to that topic). It just would not be the most WP:CONCISE conceivable name, but that's the criterion we most often sacrifice in favor of the others (after commonness, when it does not quite address the full scope of the content).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:34, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

• Personally, I'm a lumper not a splitter. I think that the number of articles we have in this topic area is unnecessarily bloated and will definitely confuse the uninformed reader: see Category:Electronic cigarettes. I think that having separate articles on Safety of electronic cigarettes and Positions of medical organizations on electronic cigarettes can no longer be justified, since the disruption in the topic area has abated for the time being (I think it should now be possible to remove duplicative and superseded content even if it's sourced). I would be in favour of merging e-liquid and electronic cigarette aerosol. However, I also think this is the wrong place for the discussion and would recommend that it happens on the talk page of one of the articles to be merged.—S Marshall T/C 10:13, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Normally that would be SOP, but centralization works better in a topic like this, because all eyes on are this page, and hardly anyone's watchlisting the recent split-offs. Centralizing whether to merge these pages on the main page of the topic, especially when that page is one of the proposed targets of the merge, and both of aerosol and liquid pages have been suggested for merging back into this main articles, will reduce the chance of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS problems.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  12:37, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

I created the E-Liquid page. I must say that I am frustrated to have read two of the above editors opining that I am a sockpuppet. I am not. If there is a cliche of editors that OWN these page's content, I am unaware it and thus strategising to the same, seems not conducive. But regardless.

E-liquid is aerosolized as a matter of fact. And encyclopedia should make readers aware of popular confusion of terms, which are science based, but it should not adopt that definition for the sake of convenience. There is an electronic cigarette (or generations of same- by alternate names). There is the E-Liquid. And there is the is the aerosol. Each is unique and each has its own issues. I believe each should have its own page, though some smaller information should be inside of Electronic Cigarettes, and link to aerosol and E-liquid as the main areas. For example E-Liquid has concerns over manufacturing and regulations. Aerosol has concerns of impact to user and others. A car has fuel, and exhaust. There is a page called Vapor (inhalation) which is actually for TRUE vaporizers. E-Liquid is incorrectly grouped within that page, which I will want to move off. To do that I would reference E-Cigarettes, explain why they are aerosol and not vaporization very Briefly.....and then put signposts for the correct pages for that content. Thank you Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:16, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

@S Marshall and SMcCandlish electronic cigarette aerosol was improperly split off from Safety, as it sits now Aerosol is a POV fork/coatrack with nothing removed from Safety to aerosol, just copied. Safety needs a lot of work in organizing and c/e for readability and flow. I may have time tomorrow to start this and move a lot of the aerosol/vapor stuff from Saefty to aerosol and leave a summery on Safety and a link. But I also think that e-liquid is a strange fit anywhere. Perhaps leave it as it is until the split is correctly done for safety/aerosol because I have a feeling aerosol is going to grow considerably. Then perhaps split off e liquid from aerosol to shrink the page down after growing? AlbinoFerret 19:40, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Hmm. OK, well, that seems to provide a different possible solution: If the aerosol safety material were merged back into the safety article, that would leave A) what this stuff is, chemically, B) the technical process by which it becomes an aerosol from the liquid, and C) the marketing and other non-technical/non-biomed stuff. A and C appear to be material that could be merged into the liquid article, with C summarized in detail in the safety article. B probably belongs in the main article with the other material on on e-cig operation, and summarized at the liquid article. Both A and C would be summarized briefly in the main article. Then there's no need for the aerosol article, and the liquid article has a reason to exist, mostly to hold the non-biomed material. This would resolve the conflict between having redundant articles on two matter states of the same product, and consolidate the safety/health info in one main article, with the aerosol/vapor titles redirecting to it, and a hatnote disambiguating to the article on the "e-liquid" for people looking for non-biomed info on it. That would arguably be a "cleaner" result than moving safety into out of the safety article into the aerosol article. The core reason I supported moving the liquid info into the aero. article is that the aero. safety is the most important part of "the story" of the liquid/aerosol. But if that's ultimately the focus of the safety article, then that's taken care of and the aero. article is redundant.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:19, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The thing is, there wont be much to merge back to Safety, nothing was taken out of it, just copied over. But its probably a good idea to double check to make sure. If you look at Construction of electronic cigarettes, it has a pretty good section on the technical operation of the device. There was already a lot of it on the page when I started to organize the page and started to make it more readable, it really wasnt done any place else. To me Construction is in half way decient shape, and will get better now that there is no longer a brick wall. E-liquid was split off of Construction, but it didnt really fit there either. By the way, I was able to start a little on the organizing of safety. There is a lot of duplication. AlbinoFerret 03:47, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

PROPOSAL Merge e-liquid and electronic cigarette aerosol into one Called: E-Liquid and E-Liquid Aerosol (Vape)
I can see removing (Vape) but it does add clarification with a unique word, that is not Vapor. E-liquid is not vaporized by the dictionary definitions. However Vape is a new word.
Removal of Electronic Cigarette is good, because its more associate with one variety of "Vaping" equipment. E-Liquid is used in all forms of EC and later generations of Electronic cigarettes and MODs. E-Liquid is devices agnostic, while "Electronic Cigarette Aerosol" is not.
The aerosolization of E-Liquid makes the vapor constituents not changed very much. Radically different that combustion artifacts.
I think this proposal is OK, they are close enough to group to one. Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:46, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

See Merger discussion below Merge_Discussion - Sub articles Safety, Aerosol, and E-liquid AlbinoFerret 22:17, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Nicotine Concentrations

The page says concentrations range up to 36 mg/ml But it seems they range up to 54 mg/ml. Apparently this strength is not common, but it is sold. Is 54 mg/ml the upper end of the range? And what's an suitable source for this? (Above source merely by way of example) Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 22:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Not sure a blog is a good source for that. AlbinoFerret 23:39, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Saying "ranges commonly between 3 to 30 mg/ml" would be fine. ie Inserting "commonly" with a range. Strengths is very variable. And it depends on device usage. Some devices are higher volume, and thus lower nicotine is used. Much like a gear on a bicycle, you need to understand the back gear to know how much to pedal. Nicotine strength is only one factor in total delivery of nicotine to the user....with the others being type of device and frequency of use of the device. Big shovel vs 10 spades.Mystery Wolff (talk) 23:56, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed a blog is a poor source, which I mention only by way of example. Does anyone have a suitable source?

"Commonly" seems good. I think the article would be improved by giving both common and full ranges. E.g. here's the common range, here's what's on the market.

Is any product sold at higher concentrations than 54 ml/mg? Not for dilution but for actual use?

Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 00:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge, and the 54mg sounds like nicotine base for DIY e-liquid. AlbinoFerret 01:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. There's a bit on this higher up here, and a link to (you'll never guess) the PHE Report. Johnbod (talk) 01:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Please note I'm not getting into nicotine deliveries and usage variations and such, which I think is already covered on the page. I'm simply updating the range to what is sold.

It does seem 54 mg/ml is the top end of the range. E.g. White Cloud double extra strength cartridges and disposable e-cigarettes I haven't been able to find any higher. Is that indeed the highest concentration sold? Cloudjpk (talk) 21:49, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

54 mg/ml is at the very extreme end of e-liquids - and extremely rare. It is really makes sense/only used when talking cig-a-likes, since these deliver less nicotine to the bloodstream than later generation e-cigarettes. 54 mg/ml is, as mentioned above, not uncommon in DIY liquids though, where it is "mixed down"/diluted to the nicotine strength that the DIY'er requires. --Kim D. Petersen 02:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Completely anecdata but after searching through reputable suppliers I could only find oe that sold at 54 mg/ml and that is sold as a base to mix down. I can't find anywhere selling higher than 36mg/ml intending it to be vaped without dilution. Would be very interested to see the source of the 54mg/ml claim. That said 54 is quite weak to mix down from ,most people offering 72 or 100 as the bases. SPACKlick (talk) 03:41, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

It would be useful to someone looking to make 6mg DIY.AlbinoFerret 04:18, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Indeed it does seem 54 mg/ml is rare, but it is on the market. However I have yet to find anyone selling higher concentrations. Would it be safe to say 54 mg/ml is the top of the range sold today? Cloudjpk (talk) 20:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

With a lack of a worldwide upper limit by law it won't be safe to say, ever. What's the point other than curiosity?--TMCk (talk) 18:54, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Accuracy Cloudjpk (talk) 20:08, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I think the question is answered on range. I'm still looking for suitable sourcing. Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 20:13, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

See section above - PHE Report, as always. Johnbod (talk) 20:35, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? I don't see where this source provides the range. Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I give the pages above, to S Marshall. Try 65-70, from memory. Johnbod (talk) 13:28, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, not seeing it there, or anywhere in this source. This may not be a suitable source for the range. Is anyone aware of a good source? Cloudjpk (talk) 19:18, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

• Look again. Public Health England, pages 65-67, exactly as Johnbod said.—S Marshall T/C 19:39, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

E-liquid normally comes in 10ml bottles containing up to 360mg of nicotine.--TMCk (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

The simple math shows that 36mg nic. AlbinoFerret 19:47, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Exactly, which is why this isn't a suitable source for the full range. Does anyone have a suitable source for that? Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

It's the normal range or do you dispute the math???--TMCk (talk) 17:02, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

The math is fine, of course. The range sold is up to 54 mg/ml. Cloudjpk (talk) 17:30, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I think we need a RS for any range above 36mg, Cloudjpk do you have one? AlbinoFerret

That's my question. I'm looking for suitable sources that show the full range. Cloudjpk (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

They don't typically range that high. 6-36mg/ml is sold for consumption and 54mg/ml-100mg/ml is sold to be diluted. Where have you got this idea of 54mg/ml sold for consumption from?

example Cloudjpk (talk) 19:16, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

That source is overly commercial and doent have an editorial statement or a clear indicator even an editor. I dont think its reliable. AlbinoFerret 19:22, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Hence my question: does anyone have suitable sources for the full range. Thanks! Cloudjpk (talk) 19:25, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I dont have anything over 36mg. It appears none of the responders so far do. It may be up to you to find one if you want to go over 36mg. AlbinoFerret 19:28, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I want to improve the article with an accurate number for the range on the market. I appreciate help finding suitable sources. Cloudjpk (talk) 19:33, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I think you're supposed to check reliable sources to find out what the range is, not decide what the range is then look for a reliable source that agrees with you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.99.220 (talk) 20:02, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

ALERT, and Discussion for this Article moving forward past the ARB, and proper stewardship

This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding Electronic cigarette topic area, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

Background: This Article has been subject to edit wars, wikilawyering, playing of ARB panels, for some time, which has resulted in a Locked page in order to prevent all of these problems. Recently one prolific editor of this Article was topic Ban. During that ARB process assertions of sockpuppetry, NPOV and tagteaming have been pushed out, by editors who are associated with this Article.
The editor who was topic banned for 6m made many many edits, reverts both by UNDO, and incrementally. While I have frustrations with their process, and support the ARB, the assumption of Good Faith, and the process by which all of the current edits were sustained....it should be assumed that the current version is well sourced, and appropriate. That mean changes should be explained. I believe there are a lot of items that need changing. But it can not just be done under the banners of "wording".

I am well aware that there has been a tug of war for a long time on these pages, but that does not mean that Wikipedia guidelines should be abandoned. Perhaps those strategies were needed, but after the ARB decision, it time to go back to Process. Topic banning one editor can still leave the other half of the problem, if you assume partial good faith
Don't remove content without explaining it. It does not necessarily need to be in Talk. But it sure needs to be in the Edit comments.

Don't remove context and explain it by saying its a from of wordsmithing. Wordsmithing does not change the context of the citation.

If content or context is removed without explanation, (including explaining something else in the edit notes, instead of the changes) It is my belief its Vandalism and/or POV pushing.

If you are going to wordsmith existing sentences, try to batch them out for each category. Think them out, instead of a blur of changes which are grammatical problems. "These has been" is wrong "These have been" is correct. Singular "It has been" is correct.

Here are some examples of problem edits in my view. Sorry if they may be yours. I don't want your work wasted, I don't want to be required to revert. I realize bothering to post this could make my edits under more scrutiny....but as the ALERT above shows....everyone should be assuming it on this Article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693011615&oldid=693011196 Removes context of "smoking". The type of nicotine usage is critical to the topic. Without digging in, I would expect this edit to make the sentence no longer match the cite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693465623&oldid=693465457 no explanation on why a cited sentence is removed. Its bait and switch via the Edit description. I think its obvious this is a useful sentence to be included. I would listen to an argument why not....its just not given.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=689215178&oldid=689214324 Cutesy non specific Edit description that forces all other editors to need to look. This edit was not better, not needed, it can be argued successfully that it is....but the editor did not bother. If a change from electronic cigarette to e-Cigarette was desired, it can be done in TALK and then moved out in mass to the entire Article.

Last there is this one, that almost has a description, until you open it up and realize what was removed. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693464684&oldid=693422936 Removes DATES including effective date, Removes the REGULATOR NAMES, removed product definitions, Removes EU information, Remove USA specific information.

I do believe QuackGuru was a problematic editor, but I don't preclude he was being messed with. I began on this Article, just recently, and I see no reason to research or care about all the past shenanigans. So with all that said, feel free to ignore me, but don't ignore the Alert and the 5 Pillars. Mystery Wolff (talk) 08:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• I intend to go through the article fixing Quackguru's linguistic infelicities, and I fully intend to continue. By the time I'm done this article will be considerably shorter. I'd encourage you to go through my changes and revert any you dislike, as you have already been doing; I'll simply shrug, move on and fix the next problem. With QG gone, most of the work on this article is uncontroversial stuff that I don't need to discuss.

  When you say, it should be assumed that the current version is well sourced, and appropriate, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. This article is well-sourced, but a lot of its content is inappropriate. The mere fact that a sentence has a citation does not mean it belongs in Wikipedia and it definitely doesn't mean it belongs in this particular article. But I don't intend to argue with you about it for the time being: I'll try to take out the trash, and if you put it back then I'll simply take out the next lot.—S Marshall T/C 18:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with S Marshall here. And for that particular reason, i've decided to not comment on individual edits for a while. There are so much fluff and repetitions to fix, that priority should be in fixing prose before focusing on WP:WEIGHT and verification. If anything is blatantly wrong - then it should of course be fixed immediately, but these changes are not likely to make such. --Kim D. Petersen 02:30, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

So far S Marsall is doing a good job by what I have seen. This article has needed a cleanup for quite some time. If something really needs to stay, replace it. As S Marshall has pointed out there is much more to do and moving past those replacements to look at them later is a good plan. For those wanting to replace, make sure the source actually says what you are replacing. Misrepresented sources have crept into the article before, and double checking cant hurt.. AlbinoFerret 04:21, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Of the 4 edits above, I only have problems with the 4th. S Marshall's edit summaries are generally good on why he is doing something, though more on what he is doing would often be good. I'm also not following all the blizzard of edits closely (to which MW's reverts contribute). At some point we will need to move to discussing in more detail here, including drafts. Johnbod (talk) 11:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Johnbod: I am talking to the blistering rate of changes and them being mislabeled. You don't have the time to watch all these edits go in, and I do not either. But in just a few days, important information is being removed, just deleted. Important information. The term "STILL out of control" comes to mind Mystery Wolff (talk) 12:14, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

But you have not been able to produce very pursuasive examples of this. Johnbod (talk) 12:20, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693703109&oldid=693703019 This is an important study no reason to delete it

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693465623&oldid=693465457 This is an important point to make. The objective stated above is simply to cut down words. How is that of value, are we know Twitter?

You call it "the blizzard of edits" yourselfMystery Wolff (talk) 12:34, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

You already cited the 2nd one. The first needs better phrasing, not removal. It is indeed a key study. Johnbod (talk) 12:38, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

---

@Spartaz:,@EdJohnston:,@L235:,@Rhoark:,@Gamaliel:,@Lankiveil:,@DeltaQuad:,@NativeForeigner:@Seraphimblade:,@Doug Weller:@Euryalus:,@LFaraone:@Thryduulf:,@DGG:
This is a request for guidance or action regarding a series of cases that have been brought to your attention, which has resulted in multiple actions on this Article (and broadly defined). Admins, Clerks, and ARB boards have spoken to this
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#S_Marshall
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles/Evidence

To paraprash it all. (loosely) A set of interested sockpuppets and tag-teaming editors were found out of the UK (IP's sniffed and confirmed) and some UK editors banned. ARB warring between S Marsall and QuackGuru with various forms of support for S Marsall, and none for QuackGuru.....QuackGuru topic banned for 6 months. Lots of drama.

Todays Situation is that the floodgates of edits are open. While the ARBs handled one side of the problem, it has left the other, who is doing gross amounts of edits and says he has a vision for the article, and no matter what edits are reverted he will keep pounding them in. Already S Marsall, had gone about deleting important content, having it reverted, coming over here and making his statements you see above, and then doing the edits again.
You can read the above. So What did the ARBs do? It removed half of a power struggle by two editors who were not cooperating, both with opposite POVs and their edits looking that way....and left only one.
The ARBs left an imbalance and tacit approval of the other side of the Edit:WAR. So now a BLIZZARD OF EDITS are coming through from S Marsall. If they have to be reverted, he does not care, he will just come back the next day to do it again....and make the article where he wants it. HOW IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE EDITOR QUACKGURU that you just Banned.

Well to this other editor(me),its not any different. Its the same. Why I care....lots of time with cites and edits to get stuff in, and they they are just vaporized.
If this needs to go to another process, tell me, but at this point to the Admins pinged.....I suggest you need to reopen the previous ARB, look at what S Marsall has said what he is going to do, look at what his edits have been after QuackGuru....and take a vote....Is the ARB complete? Y or N. Was the problem Solved Y or N. Do we need to take more action before closing this Y or N. I think you have all the paperwork on your desks without any of it being clear off yet. I don't want to start a new process.
TLDR Dear ARB, read assertions already counter to the Alert, See ARB re-open, and reconfirm, nip in bud, close. Thank you. A rare Mystery Wolff (talk) 14:40, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

The difference? You are coming into this article as a new editor at a time when the article was on hold and all parties were on their best behaviour. The difference is, S Marshall is editing per WP:BRD an established way of editing. When he is reverted he leaves it be and goes to other areas of the page. Disruptive editors would have reverted again and edit warred in the change, S Marshall has not done that. The article is in drastic need of copy editing. I am sure he will discuss anything you need to discuss. Discussing every single edit is not required. I will also caution you on WP:OUTING, I suggest you read that page and possibly remove any identifying info quickly. AlbinoFerret 15:24, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

►AlbinoFerret, how can you assert that this article was on its best behavior by all parties? One editors was just topic banned, which is the only reason an ARB for S Marshall was closed, on top of hooliganism by editors that needed to be blocked after IP discovery was done. While you assert S Marshall is editing per WP:BRD you ignore that is not what is actually being done. AlbinoFerret: unless you are watching over each and every edit by S Marshall, I would suggest you not assert a proclamation of what another editor is doing, especially in a thread where it has already been shown he is "reverted again"...Whatever in the world are you talking about with WP:OUTING, are you are talking about the blogger from the UK, written up in the ARB? Be specific, or skip. Thank you Mystery Wolff (talk) 03:02, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Per BRD Be Bold in editing (looks like thats what S Marshell is doing) Revert (what you did) Discuss, talk about the edit instead of reverting a revert (again S Marshall did exactly that). That he decided that it wasnt worth the extra verbiage and went and edited something else in the article is ok, you have the information you wanted in the article. Looks like S Marshall is editing per BRD. BRD does not say to stop all other editing until new editors who have reverted you in other places are satisfied. This whole section seems rather WP:POINTy. AlbinoFerret 03:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Dear Arb, this is very premature! Johnbod (talk) 15:26, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe a trout for Mystery Wolf's battleground behavior on talk pages...--TMCk (talk) 15:36, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

If others agree with User:Mystery Wolff that there are too many changes and not enough discussion the logical response might be a month of full protection. That would at least force discussion but still allow changes via {{Edit protected}}. A statement above by S Marshall indicates he plans to go on making changes without waiting for consensus. If time is going to be wasted by reverting the same thing in and out multiple times then holding WP:RFCs might be worthwhile. (RfCs take time, but so do revert wars). An alternative to protection could be a voluntary agreement by several people to do more talking for each edit. EdJohnston (talk) 16:16, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

EdJohnston I dont think protection is needed. There is no edit warring going on. A couple of edits by S Marshall were reverted and he left them that way and went on to copy edit other things, standard BRD. Yes he said he was going to continue editing, not that he was going to focus and push edits he has done that are reverted. The vast majority of his edits are non controversial copy editing. I am sure when the copy editing is done more discussion will happen on the fine points. AlbinoFerret 16:29, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

(ec) Besides not agreeing with Wolff (and I can't imagine others fully do either), a lock down would bring improvements (like we had since the ARB closing) to a halt and is the last thing we need here. Certainly not by taking a new SPA's (so far) "assessment" for granted.--TMCk (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I really do not see that people agree with Mystery Wolff at this point in time. What is happening is a major textual overhaul of the article, which hopefully will result in a significant improvement in prose. Once that is done, i suspect that there will be discussions on sentences/paragraphs to ensure that everything is weighted in accordance to NPOV and is completely in sync with the underlying literature. --Kim D. Petersen 17:58, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

►EdJohnston I have not read the all full effects of Full Protection, but my first take, is that would do no harm, and would likely help. Thus I support it. You have had multiple ARBs on this page, and the last ARB concluded, it actions did not help, after all that analysis. CFCF was effected, and so too was some UK IPs that were blocked. Otherwise it did not effect a change. Then QuackGuru opens an ARB about a war with S Marshall. That is ended only because QuackGuru is topic banned. I don't see the reason to do this all over again, looking at the ARB that was a lot of work by a lot of people. I do read the comments above, are thinking everything is now fine an dandy, days after QuackGuru banned. I think the ARB board is evading their duties if they poll the interested parties in the Article and the ARBs, to determine what actions they will take. Its not a popularity contest with 4-5 active editors all of whom were aligned against a banned member who left the scene days ago. (with apologies to those who don't fit into this category) If a set of text only edits need to be put in, why not just do all those edits in one shot. Why over and over and over. I can tell you changes being called out as wording....are not just wording. They are removing context and content. There are other items below I will reply to as well. But I will says this....you already have an editor saying they will ignore consensus or building of, and if reverts happen they will just ignore them. To be bold for WP editing....ITS NOT DONE BY A THOUSAND CUTS OF INCREMENTAL EDITING Mystery Wolff (talk) 04:29, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

It would be helpful to present some diffs at WP:AE with an explanation of what is inappropriate about those particular edits. Based on your comments here all I know is that you do not like some edits by S Marshall. Gamaliel (talk) 16:33, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

AE is open to all, but it would be more effective to get proper discussions going here. Anyone who has been following the threads here for a week or more could have something useful to say. User:Mystery Wolff, per your talk page "..I want to make sure that I am on the same level playing field as everyone else". if you want to have a level playing field it might help if you would give us a hint of why you created your account on 19 November with apparently no prior Wikipedia edits but much knowledge of the arb case, just to edit regarding electronic cigarettes. EdJohnston (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with these two comments, and I'm not willing to reopen the Arb case arbitrarily. We also have DS (also extended DS for SPAs) in affect for E-cigs, and I'd rather see the community work it out here or on WP:AE before we go to another Arbitration case. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 03:25, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

►►► Amanda,EdJohnston,Gamaliel et al: I have listed 4 examples (1 duplicated and one regarding QuackGuru not counted), and gave the reasons above. Why these are either not BOLD, or destructive (NPOV, or simply taking out very valid information). 50% of the 4 were agreed to as being poor edits by others within this thread. I believe if you look at these edits you will see exactly what I am showing is at issue, and there are S Marshall has stated his goals. Considering case within the ARB was closed on S Marshall with the sole action as being the banning of QuackGuru, I would suggest that ARB did not finish. Others here are saying there is a blizzard of edits. That is not BOLD editing. The editor has stated they will ignore reverts, and continue. DOES THAT MEAN, that I get unlimited reverts to be on equal footing with S Marshall's novel method of changing this article? When S Marshal says the is "when he is done" the article will be much shorter....just what does that mean? When is he done? Why is to be shorter? Is there a list of all these edits by QuackGuru he will change? As already noted above bye EdJohnston and now again below, S Marshal has his own agenda. I would suggest to you S Marshall has asserted he is editing under a POV, and won't be detered now that his ARB was closed by the topic ban of the person that started it. PLEASE LOOK at this edit, because it is the one that bothers me the most, it is not unique for S Marshall. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693703109&oldid=693703019 I understand that study, they test was on Smokers who were NOT trying to quit. He claims he has sought concessions in the edit description, that not true. Again combine that with what S Marshall is saying how he will edit going forward. Mystery Wolff (talk) 04:59, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

• There's not much I need to respond to in Mystery Wolff's complaint, although I'd observe that pinging everyone in Arbcom on your 140th edit, sixteen days after you've made your account, is quite some going and your decision to put a huge text box called ALERT! on SMcCandlish's talk page might raise some eyebrows. I will respond to certain other editors. I'm grateful to AlbinoFerret for coming to my defence but my edits cannot fairly be characterised as "copyediting". I am excising text, and this includes excising sourced text. The content I am removing is inappropriate, but it does go considerably beyond copyediting. I am also editing rapidly. If there was a talk page consensus that I should slow down then I would certainly pay attention to that, but I see no such consensus here. I am also unconcerned about OUTING. I edit under my real name and I choose to display my full name, photograph, location, and date of birth on my userpage. I have nothing to hide.—S Marshall T/C 18:19, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

It may be more than simple c/e, but I think you are doing a good job so far. If anyone disagrees and reverts you, you dont edit war, but just move forward. AlbinoFerret 03:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the points above; if there are behavioural problems left over from the case, that WP:AE is the right place to go to put the discretionary sanctions into practice. Note that long rambling screeds, conspiracy theories, and bad faith usually aren't welcomed at said noticeboard. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 09:52, 5 December 2015 (UTC).

@Lankiveil:Let me, if you--will trying to summarize the situation, as I see it. (as best able in a NPOV)

1. Arb opened up June-ish with outcomes against CFCF and UK editors and IPs out of UK. QuackGuru given guidance.

2. 2nd ARB opened up by QuackGuru on S Marshall. As it was forming, Prior ARB makes QuackGuru banned, and then says the S Marshall ARB must close.

3. S Marshall is needed to be reverted, before a full edit war happens, its brought to talk. S Marshall states his goals in the text above.

4. All of the above is process failure. The ARB did not complete. It became assumed that QuackGuru was the only source of problem, even though the ARB never found that.

5.NEXT STEPS

6. Opening new ARBs and complaints are not going to help if the process is a circular racetrack, something needs to change.

7. Options:

8. Reopen the old Arb, and accept concerns from others on S Marshall. This is too user centered to be a full solution but better than current potion.

9. Go to full lock of the topic and broadly related. Unless you enjoy ARBs its going to need to happen because the FDA is about to end 6 years of attempting to regulate, they are going to release the final rule in weeks. (google FDA electronic cigarettes regulations in News or read http://thehill.com/regulation/261897-business-health-groups-jockey-to-shape-e-cig-rule ) THE POINT BEING, you probably want a full lock anyway, because its going to come fast a furious when the final rule drops and all the state groups start going.

10. I don't know how to open an ARB and I don't want to, if one is opened I can write a problem statement. (Same if an old one is re-opened)

Thanks Mystery Wolff (talk) 20:53, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

• Well, you've got a grievance about my editing; you've been told you can't express it here; but fair process says you've got to be able to express it somewhere. I have very little appetite for further arbitration about this, but if you really do want to begin an Arbitration Enforcement thread against me then the technical difficulty of opening one should not be allowed to stand in your way. So I'll offer to open an arbitration enforcement thread against myself on your behalf. Before I do: are you absolutely sure? You might want to ask for some advice from experienced, uninvolved editors before you answer. (Try using {{helpme}} on your talk page to attract their attention.)—S Marshall T/C 21:46, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

In all fairness I think Mystery Wolf should be aware of the WP:BOOMERANG. AlbinoFerret 22:14, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Straight into Quack's footsteps.--TMCk (talk) 23:07, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

►@S Marshall: I need to disabuse you of these notions.
1. I have listed out edits that I have concerns about, which were deleting information, without Edit summaries reflecting that, and then deleting valuable information which the effect of is IMO very detrimental.
2. You response to the above, was that you would continue to do so. You would not be deterred in any manner. That now that your ARB requests resulted in QuackGuru being suspended, you had an agenda to push into the article, and by the time you were done, the article would be much shorter. Anyone can see my concern when that is said on top of a general Alert on this page, which I even posted in this subsection.
3. No one has said to me "you've been told you can't express it here". There have been some non interested ARB members and admins, who have been very careful to not interject. They have asked for information, they have said they read some of the information. But they have not interacted.
4. My goal to alert them that his dialogue was going on was in order for them to TAKE ACTION on the ALERT, which enables their discretionary actions for this Page....WITHOUT A NEW ARB.....I am using the system. I am using the process. I am the guy on the factory floor who is hitting the STOP button because we have a process failure. I see no value to anyone that this create a new ARB, when the existing ones continue to hold discretion. HENCE THE ALERT
5. S Marshall I have been distinctly told THIS IS THE PROPER PLACE TO EXPRESS IT. I was told I MUST SAY IT HERE. I was told you are using the BOLD edit style which relies on BOLD edits and waiting for feedback through reverts. Was told that you are seeking REVERTS as your process control.
6. That then becomes something that the ARB must look at. Because you are doing many many edits. There is no way I can revert all of them to give you feedback, when there are 10+ a day. You are not bringing them up to anyone before hand. AND THE BIG ITEM. You said that even if you get Reverted, you will just go on to the next item.
7. You provide no explanation to why you made the changes that were reverted. You simply want to continue on and win by attrition. Its not trivial because you are blanking out items that other editors feel is important.
8. You can not use the BOLD system, when feedback is not sought. Otherwise you are just using 3RR as a gamed system. I don't think that is debatable. Why make an edit you won't stand up for. It gives the impression of "caught" but unrelenting.
9. Again when others and you say you are using the BOLD edit system---you say directly above: "I have very little appetite for further arbitration about this" that means you want 1/2 the BOLD systems with not of the controls it relies on.
10. S Marshall I asked you to explain your edits, you refused. If you want to help me, start there. I believe the ALERT given in this subsection enables the ARB to take discretionary actions. Right now, I think a full lockdown on the thread makes sense. The incremental cost to administrators will be fantastically reduced vs continuing ARBs, or vs letting tightly aligned and constant ARB participants from riding rough shot over anyone. Had you been just wordsmithing, it would be entirely different, but you are DELETING IMPORTANT STUDIES WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATION WHEN ASKED, PURELY REFUSING. The thing is I won't be around Monday or Thursday, or whenever of whatever week to monitor your "novel atypical BOLD edit" system enabled by successfully getting your flow control (QuackGuru) topic banned.

I have to proceed, because I simply won't put hours and hours of work finding medical citations that meet the criteria of inclusion....have them sit in the page for 2 weeks, to have them ripped out by you calling the deletion "nobody understand this". Sorry I just won't. And I am following ALL procedures as best able. Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:45, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

There are two errors in your 8 points Mystery Wolf.

1) The result of the August Arb didn't mention UK IP's and UK IP's it mentioned CFCF, QuackGuru and SPA's [[WP:ARBEC]

4) Both ARB's completed, the first with an extension of discretionary sanctions, the second with a boomerang on QuackGuru who didn't learn his lesson on the first ARB.

S Marshall has been pruning text in the wrong article, copyediting poorly written text and generally making edits that several of us have attempted barring QuackGuru's ownership of the article. If there are any specific edits you disagree with on this topic I'd recommend listing them on the talk page for discussion, it's perfectly possible anyone involved in this article over the last 6 months might be overzealous in their corrections so some mistakes may well creep in. If you spot one, point it out on the talk page but looking through the edits, in general they're improvements, undoing the damage already done. SPACKlick (talk) 03:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

►1. I'll assume the other points you find no error.

2. The ARBs I looked at in the evidence section all this on sockpuppets and IP addresses etc etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles/Evidence#Preliminary_statement_by_CFCF

3. Here again, why I know things, its because you ask me to look them up. Yes I am aware of the First Arb and the boomerang. HOWEVER now you have made me obligated because I am actually neutralPOV, to tell QuackGuru his 6M topic ban was outside of the decision of the first ARB. And I was a person who is very upset at QuackGuru. But fair is fair assumption of good faith is a responsibility. The ARB he was 6M topic ban said "Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor_conduct_in_e-cigs_articles#Enforcement_of_restrictions Sucks to be me here, but his violation already had determined a max sentence on it.

4. Yes I see the "copy editing" that S Marshall is doing, and its being done with poor Grammar. He begins sentences with THEY and THEIR, when its entirely not clear what the THEY is. He is removing the names and inserting THEY. I guess to fit into a twitter bar. S Marshall also has problems with tense. He edits to "They has been" or "It have been" its bad Grammar, its the basics. If I revert those, I can not revert the ones with big impact. And I don't want to be reverting anything. There is a saying. I would have written you a short letter but I did not have the time. He is not putting in the time to condense, or he is not skilled.

5. SPACKlick it just does not make sense to me, all this historical QuackGuru related stuff that needs to be flooded in. As an editor who did not see all of that, and see not documentation of this mass of changes that needs to happen, I am at a big disadvantage. Why not just put down all the stuff that needs to go in, stick it up on TALK, give it 4-7 days, and then after that move them en mass. All I can say is a hugely important study was removed with no explanation by S Marshall....its enough...considering the backdrop. Mystery Wolff (talk) 12:59, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Everything discussed should have a basis in PAG (policy and guidelines). Please find a policy or guideline that supports your arguments in the future. #5 please point out any policy or guideline that requires each edit to be discussed. AlbinoFerret 14:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret: You are mistaken. I was speaking to SPACKlick quote of "S Marshall has been pruning text in the wrong article, copyediting poorly written text and generally making edits that several of us have attempted barring QuackGuru's ownership of the article." You may be part of that group of editors with that POV, I am not. If I look at the ARBs, I see clusters which I would consider the editors in "the several of us" team. If there is some sort of master list of items, lets see it. The copy editing is changing the context and content of what the citation gives, to the point where the inserted material is being crafted in the POV of the Wiki-editor. The article is full out free for all mode, with a blizzard of edits under the banner of "now nobody is stopping "us". SPACKlick says it straight out. Now reverted the reverts that explained. The entire premise of the bold style of editing assumes that its a 1:1, not one vs tag-team. I will submit his, it should be entirely clear. Mystery Wolff (talk) 16:23, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Statement about regulation restored to Health effects section

[8] User:Doc James, care to explain why? P Walford (talk) 13:52, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

You mean why I fixed the ref? Or why I readded the details removed without discussion?Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:02, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

"As of 2014 electronic cigarettes had not been approved as a smoking cessation device by any government.ref name=WHOPosition2014/>" isn't really true, this being 2015. I'm not sure if any actual e-cig has been approved as medicine in any EU country, but in the UK the approvals process is being decided, subject to the final UK legislation implementing the directive. A consultation process on the regulations ended in September. If not here, this has been pointed out when removed from other articles. Johnbod (talk) 18:12, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

The details weren't removed. They were moved to the appropriate section -- Regulation. Why should the statement be in Health effects? P Walford (talk) 18:19, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like a regulation claim to me. AlbinoFerret 04:26, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Ah yes see that the statement was moved rather than removed.

Are they approved as a smoking cessation aid in the UK? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:58, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

The advice varies Electronic cigarettes are to be licensed and regulated as an aid to quit smoking from 2016, it has been announced. ... Some health professionals do not recommend them because they believe the potential for harm is significant.NHS news 2013 updated August 2015, Quit4Life is proud to be one of the first "e-cigarette friendly" NHS stop smoking services in the country. Whether you quit smoking using traditional medication or an e-cigarette, evidence shows that you have a much better chance of quitting... Quit4Life regional NHS program 2014 It seems to be left to individual doctors/practices until the full effects of the TPD come into effect in 2016 SPACKlick (talk) 07:23, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

So in other words not yet. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:22, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

It won't be "they", in the sense of all e-cigs, obviously, but individual models etc which have gone through the (massively expensive) process of approval as medicine. This process has not been finalized, partly because the final legislation has not been passed. But it won't be like Canada, where all devices must be approved but the authorities apparently have no intention of approving any. Where other EU countries bound by the TPD have got to I can't establish. Nonethless I think the TPD, which is passed and commits all the EU countries to similar regimes is enough to make the WHO statement misleading now, as phrased. It would not be more misleading to say "electronic cigarettes have been approved as a smoking cessation device by 26 governments". Johnbod (talk) 11:21, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

One electronic cigarette (voke inhaler) is approved as a smoking cessation aid (CLICK).--Merlin 1971 (talk) 13:08, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I know about that one, but it isn't an e-cig (see PHE report for example). The 40+ page PDF you link to does an astonishingly bad job at explaining what the product is and how it works, but it is clear from the last pages that no form of electricity is involved. Johnbod (talk) 13:17, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

This one however (e-voke) is an e-cigarette and has recently received a marketing authorisation in the UK - http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/par/documents/websiteresources/con616843.pdf 88.107.224.11 (talk) 16:14, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it is actually - the MHRA approval is as usual catastrophically unclear as to how it works, but this piece in the Torygraph distinguishes it from e-cigs, and it certainly doesn't work the same way as the ones described in this article. See the company's graphic. This uses the electric power to squirt a measured dose of nicotine-containing vapour into the user's mouth. It doesn't sound very attractive, & I can't see it selling well, unless it becomes prescribable. It was approved in September 2014 in fact, but doesn't seem to be on sale yet. Johnbod (talk) 17:32, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry but I don't agree. The Telegraph article (from last year) refers to a different product from the MA granted on 19 November 2015 that I linked to. Clearly that (the 45mg nicotine product) is not an e-cigarette. The more recent MHRA authorisation, for a 10/15mg electronic product, refers to the product previously being marketed as a non licenced Intellicig (a cigalike) and the description matches that of an e-cigarette. Even if it doesn't describe in detail how it works, the description is sufficient to deduce that it is an electronic inhaler commonly known as an e-cigarette. 88.107.224.11 (talk) 12:07, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Hmm. The PDF seems to bear no date, and there is nothing about it in the media that I can see. There are two mentions of "vaporiser" (American spelling) on page 8, so you might be right, but it is all very unclear. We can't use this as a source I think. Johnbod (talk) 14:56, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Here is another source (dated today). OK so it is the Daily Mail, but still :) 88.107.224.11 (talk) 15:39, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Now that is interesting, and what the graphic shows seems to be a conventional cigalike. Let's see how the story develops. Johnbod (talk) 15:46, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Im with you johnbod, waiting to see what sources appear is a good idea, we will need a better source than the Daily Mail if the UK did approve an e-cig. AlbinoFerret 16:25, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

I will point out, it lacks a battery in the images comparing it to e-cigs that I have found. Doesnt look like it uses heating to create the aerosol. AlbinoFerret 17:44, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

No, that seems to come pre-made and pressurized in the cartridge. Johnbod (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Nothing more than a regular inhaler in the form of a cigalike. Sells better. You can see it better here.--TMCk (talk) 17:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't sell at all yet. And you only get 20 "charges" per cartridge. Johnbod (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

OK... But there is another one: The "e-Voke" was approved a few weeks ago.--Merlin 1971 (talk) 17:22, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, see an inch or two back. This probably is significant, but clearer info is needed. The media have not really picked up on this, and they aren't on sale. But this certainly seems to justify cutting the sentence we began this section for. Johnbod (talk) 16:17, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Request for Full Protection --->via the ARB to exercising its defined Discretionary Powers reflected/asserted in the posted ALERT

The ALERT posted for this Article is being worked around. Described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Electronic_cigarette#ALERT.2C_and_Discussion_for_this_Article_moving_forward_past_the_ARB.2C_and_proper_stewardship

The outcome of the last 2 ARB was not a walk away, but to post notice of an ALERT. Editors are forcing in changes, tag teaming, POV pushing, and using the 3RR rule under the guise of BOLD editing to push in changes. They are a precise corollary to the recent editor that was topic banned. The above link describes it in detail. An editor has stated his editing style, is to put mass changes in and not object to reverts. 1. That is not BOLD editing. 2. Associated editors are already putting those edits in. Unless I am given an exemption to 3RR (which can not happen) Their stated POV will be supplanted into the article

Here is the link to a change removing a significant study. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Electronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693703109&oldid=693703019 This is a controlled study the examine what the outcomes would be for cessation with smokers who were selected because they did not have intention to quit smoking. It a very important study. ◄▬▬ This answers the question "why are you bothering"

As others have said on talk page a blizzard of edits are coming in. Because the ARB retained discretionary ability, and notices were posted of same, I am requesting that action take place. I am requesting at Full Protection of the article (for an undefined term). The FDA will soon be publishing new rules for Electronic Cigarettes at the start of they new year, so this is not going to get easier over time.

I do not believe I need to open up any ARBs, I believe this request is sufficient for the ARB to undertake its duties, which were posted in the Alert. The ARB established its duty to this Page through issuing an Alert, proclaiming their ongoing discressionary powers to the Article.
@Spartaz:,@EdJohnston:,@L235:,@Rhoark:,@Gamaliel:,@Lankiveil:,@DeltaQuad:,@NativeForeigner:@Seraphimblade:,@Doug Weller:@Euryalus:,@LFaraone:@Thryduulf:,@DGG: I am asking the ARB do so now. This is a consequence of the last ARBs. A new ARB is not needed. Full Protection (undefined length) is a reasonable solution, stands to save 100+ hours of ARB time, and will improve the article. Doing the same thing over and expecting the same result=NEW ARB. The ALERT was hurdled with glee. Thank you. Mystery Wolff (talk) 17:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

This needs to be requested at WP:RPP. Doug Weller (talk) 17:31, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

This was first raised as an option by EdJohnston on this page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AElectronic_cigarette&type=revision&diff=693744308&oldid=693739701 I believe that is the inevitable need/outcome, and that it can be done by the ARB per their own direction premised upon their own alert Alert. I have said same here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Request_for_Full_Protection_---.3Evia_the_ARB_to_exercising_its_defined_Discretionary_Powers_regarding_Electronic_Cigarettes

If nothing else they have first right of refusal to take it up. I believe that Full Protection needs to be done by the ARB itself. Mystery Wolff (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

And to be frank I don't think I have the WP:Competence to request Page Protection, outside of a plea for the ARB to use the discretion provided under their Alert. I am maxed out on my learning curve right here. Mystery Wolff (talk) 17:58, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

• Please do not fully protect this article. I believe that there is broad consensus in favour of giving this article a moderately drastic haircut, opposed only by this editor Mystery Wolff who seems to wish for this article to crystallise in its current, horribly-written form. I'm actually quite willing to listen to this editor but he's never tried to communicate with me personally. I would be grateful if an uninvolved sysop could take him in hand, calm him down, explain to him the purpose of User talk:S Marshall and discuss the reasons why it is considered courteous to be succinct and concise.—S Marshall T/C 18:22, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I also am against protection. No edit warring has happened. This latest section is a continuation of talk page disruption. I have opened a AE section on them.[9] AlbinoFerret 18:39, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I agree with both of the above. The article is in flux following several editors on self imposed pause during the ARB and the topic banning of a disruptive editor. If there are any issues with specific edits they should be reverted and raised on the talk page. There's been no edit warring of reverted edits, where there's been disagreement it's been reverted to original state and left be in all but one case where S Marshall made a grammar correcting edit and corrected the text to source. Mystery Wolff reverted it to a grammatically incorrect state and I undid the revert. Mystery Wolff has responded to that with this ARB alert rather than any discussion of the content of the edits, as he has with every disagreement so far. SPACKlick (talk) 20:00, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose There is a lot of clearing-up going on after the topic banning of QuackGuru. This is entirely to be expected, and won't last forever. No doubt some babies are being removed with the bathwater, but the best thing is to query these individually, or wait until the dust settles and then discuss what we have at that point. Mystery Wolff's strangely vague histrionics on talk, and pretty erratic edits to the article, are not especially helpful at this point. No need for protection. Johnbod (talk) 20:58, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm seeing a consensus against protection here and no reason not to follow it. @Mystery Wolff: I strongly recommend you take the advice of the experienced editors on this page and discuss the specific issues you have with the article, your current approach is disruptive and if you persist you may be facing a topic ban or other sanction. Thryduulf (talk) 23:26, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Aggregated Response to Comments: S Marshall, Fully Protection is not "no changes" I was a process suggested as an option for a month by @EdJohnston:, in this Articles Talk pages. I think the 1 month should not be a hard-coded timeframe, if the article goes that way. Full Protection just means that edits need to be created and passed through to admin to accomplish (I will read up on it more, but we are currently at semi-protection, and that is a poor Status Quo. S Marshall, when you say "moderately drastic haircut", this is the problem, and Admins should see it clearly, you don't hide it. You are reverting text, deleting studies, rewording the citations so they are YOURS, and NOT reflective of the source. I have listed SOME of them already, and you REFUSE to address them. And MOST RECENTLY have a tag-team approach to having other editors push in you BOLD edits. The BOLD editing style without any reponse to talk. I am sorry I am a bump in the road for the ol'gang who fell the terrible QuackGuru. But I am a researcher, and when you blow away study citations, and the text, that took hours to edit in. I do know there is a problem. It is a pure charade now, to say you are willing to listen. I was required to revert 2 of your edits, and you just laughed and moved, and said you would come back to it. Other edits you have other edits edit back in, without using the revert button. Gamed yes, listened to, not. Why not just describe the major haircut, BEFOREHAND. You have said you are a man on mission, and won't be deterred. I believe you.

AlbinoFerret, I have not read yet and won't have time until later tonight to read your complaint. But considering you have said that there is not Edit Warring. And I am saying I need to revert items, and poor edits are happening, and S Marshall is asserting a MAJOR HAIRCUT IS BEING DONE, and your only beef is that I have used the Talk page? That I am asking for Full Protection, after you went onto my talk page to say you would ENFORCE something on me? Hello? I am using proper process. I have worked in PRODUCTION SYSTEMS BEFORE. I am attempting to leave the production system, what the world sees, as clean as possible and trying to put in logical and changes. This major haircut...what is it?

SPACKlick, If there was some sort of self imposed hiatus from editing this article, SORRY I was not part of that team of editors agreeing on that. Its the usual members of the MULTIPLE ARBs that are complaining. I suppose the theory is you knock off an editor, and the tag-team runs rough shot over any other editors. How is what is happening otherwise? SPACKlick, I wrote on the edits, that I was replacing the content and the context of the articles, that was removed. CONTEXT was removed. And it was done in 3 sections. Please do not say I did not describe in my edit summary. I USE THE EDIT SUMMARY to communicate to other editors.

Johnbod, No need for protection? You thing Semi-Protection should go? Studies are being deleted, important ones. Babies as you say are leaving with the bathwater. Protect them before all of the previous efforts are white-washed to a POV group. Asking an admin to move in a set of changes is hardly as bad as the length of time for a 10 person ARB panel with 8 witnesses, and 4 litigants.

Thryduulf, With all due respect, please show me these experienced editors who have not been actively running this Article into the ground? I get a complaint on me from AlbinoFerret, for using the Talk pages? For not Edit Warring? To have a voice against a galvanized if not organized POV set of editors. If it was wording, if it was grammar, if it was briefity, I would be OK. MAKE NO MISTAKE. STUDIES ARE BEING DELETED THAT PASSED MUSTER FOR INCLUSION....just vaporized. CONTEXT AND CONTEXT OF CITES ARE BEING REFORMED.

A group of editors wants to do a drastic haircut, but they won't say what it going to look like, trust them, and when edits are reverted, they are not using the Bold process, they are working to team them in. WHY NOT EXPLAIN THE HAIRCUT FIRST...especially with S MARSHALL professed inflexibility to feedback in TALK. YES, look around, is there a problem with this approach Y or N. I know my talk page is being tagged and blasted for me to not edit this article. I am following the rules. And will continue to. Mystery Wolff (talk) 01:04, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion: Why not copy this article into draft space and work on changes there? Once finished revising the draft, all the changes can be reviewed at once rather than changing the active article at a rapid pace. Sizeofint (talk) 05:40, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I read your edit summary Mystery wolf, and I disagreed. There was no relevant context lost and the content more accurately reflected the cite. If you want to raise a specific issue, then as you have been told several times your best bet is to drop the stick, stop calling i the admins and start a discussion over the specifics you are having issues with. What relevant context do you eel was lost and why? What relevant content do you feel was lost and why? How does the edit less reflect the contents of the cite and why? Start a discussion section, even if it's a specific edit to elucidate a general principle. Some studies that are perfectly valid may well be deleted where the article already reflects there conclusions elsewhere. This article is not intended to be a list of every study but, in the relevant sections, a general summary of the consensus. SPACKlick (talk) 07:54, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• A few points, Mystery Wolff:-

1. The fact that other editors support my changes does not make us a tag team.
2. I have described my intentions on this talk page on a number of occasions previously, but this may have been before you started editing. I intend to rewrite this article so that it's accessible to a schoolchild -- a vulnerable person who's heard of e-cigarettes and is considering taking a puff. This is the kind of person who is likely to be turning to Wikipedia for information. Everyone else here has heard me say this.
3. At the moment the article is written for and accessible to people with college degrees who make decisions for a living.
4. No, I am not going to submit each of my changes to the Article Edit Approval Committee on the talk page before I make them. I fought a four month Arbcom case so that I wouldn't have to do that. It's needless and bureaucratic.
5. I do intend to discuss each controversial change on the talk page. The way I find out which changes are controversial is to try them and see if anyone reverts. This is normal behaviour on Wikipedia.
6. Yes, I removed a sourced sentence. It was incoherent and horribly-written. (Actually I tagged it, waited three days, and then removed it.) After I'd removed it, it was rewritten in decent, comprehensible English and put back. I have not objected. This is the normal editing process at work.

I hope this helps.—S Marshall T/C 08:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I think point #2 is probably going a little too far. It should probably be accessible to, say, high school students. For children, we have simple.wikipedia.org. A better alternative to #6 (a more "normal editing process") in most circumstances is to simply rewrite the sentence instead of deleting it. Other than those quibbles, that all sounds reasonable, and just what most of us do. I don't see any grounds for page protection (and this isn't the venue to request it anyway). There's a natural tension between SPACKlick's observation that we're not here to catalogue every possible source and its contents, and Wolff's concerns that sources and sourced material are being deleted. I think this can probably be handled on a case-by-case basis on the talk page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:42, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• By "schoolchild" I mean someone about the age of 14 or 15 -- the kind of age where people take up nicotine habits.—S Marshall T/C 22:21, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

S Marshall with your agenda, its more of a pamphlet that would be given out by an advocacy group, or a personal blog with an agenda. But that is not an encyclopedic entry. Your are re-purposing the Article to fit your form, function and your targeted audience. Mystery Wolff (talk) 08:01, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• Rubbish. The accusation that I'm turning the article into an advocacy pamphlet is bizarre and offensive, as most of your other allegations are. Yes, I am re-purposing the article, which currently reflects QuackGuru's agenda. Yes, I believe that it's largely pitched at the wrong level. On the rest of it: what kind of weird freak do you take me for?—S Marshall T/C 08:35, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Concerns of User:Mystery Wolff

Collapsed per the editor's agreement. EdJohnston (talk) 23:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am going to peel out from EdJohnston and answer and discuss this here, I do believe it is topical to the entire article, hence the new section. The comment by @EdJohnston: is AE is open to all, but it would be more effective to get proper discussions going here. Anyone who has been following the threads here for a week or more could have something useful to say. User:Mystery Wolff, per your talk page "..I want to make sure that I am on the same level playing field as everyone else". if you want to have a level playing field it might help if you would give us a hint of why you created your account on 19 November with apparently no prior Wikipedia edits but much knowledge of the arb case, just to edit regarding electronic cigarettes. EdJohnston (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC) This question by itself is a accusation of bad faith. Perhaps its is because of the prior action taken in the ARBs. I believe there is no obligation for each and every editor to state why the are participating in editing Wikipedia. Am I wrong? My knowledge of Wikipedia is directly related to how much reading of various WP:xyz jargon is posted. Wikipedia has a fairly extensive user manual, very large, and I read what I need to on a JIT basis. I have edited some other articles, not much, but I do have knowledge of Electronic Cigarettes, if all my edits are just reverted to nothing I may not edit much more, but I have no intention of only working on simply E-Cigs. I am aware there is a group of closely held editors of E-Cigs...and the ARBs of the POV wars are ample to review. I reviewed them. Upon starting to make edits I posted in Talk, and used all the process instructions. An interested editor SMcCandlish took exception to my comments, and specifically when I told him he was wrong in the Talk page. He is a long time user of Wikipedia and was flabbergasted to be told he was wrong on facts. He then put his own personal story of harm reduction in as proof of justification of an edit. When it was explained to him that his personal story was not correct SMcCandlish began an extensive canvasing campaign to organize a fraction against my editorship. My FEELING is I walked in a group of the good ol boys, not wanting to let new folk edit. I don't want this to be creative writing...so you can just read it here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Electronic_cigarette#Replacement_of_quitting_language_in_Harm_reduction And other talk subjects. Having concerns about QuackGuru edits I looked at his contributions and found him on SMcCandlish talk page, accusing me of being sock puppet. SMcCandlish happily entertained the conversation. I wrote on that page that I was not a sockpuppet...and you can see the conversation afterwards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SMcCandlish#E-liquid Right during that I get a Alert on my Talk page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mystery_Wolff#Alert I have to figure out what that's about. So I ask L235, who is very helpful, I have to read a lot more WikiInstructionPages. But in the end I never get an answer to my straight question. Why me? As it turns out I am being subjected to a rather nasty bit of organizing a fraction at me. I mean its not even close to interpretation IMHO. SMcCandlish attempted to link me to QuackGuru before the impending 6M topic ban in TALK, when that failed, he went over to the Clerk and started rumors and accusations about me. SMcCandlish ASSUMES BAD FAITH upon me, and then sells it HERE---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lankiveil#E-cigs EdJohnston, you should note how similar his jargon and exact terming is to your quote above. I say that simply as a measure of how effectively the system has been gamed. Lots of moves in the background. A real tight squad of organizing a faction that disrupts (or aims to disrupt) Wikipedia's fundamental decision-making process, which is based on building consensus. And in the Talk pages a SMcCandlish was trying to tag me with a topic ban. Lovely stuff. Nobody on Wikipedia needs to show their badges, make assertions of themselves in order to be valued, SMcCandlish SHOULD know that. Good faith is assumed, we work in an open system, we accept feedback. When my competence attacked even with WikiJargon, it quite an accusation, and SMcCandlish refused to back it up. Do I believe people have POV editing on this topic? I read all the names in the ARB, nothing has changed except for one. THE BOTTOMLINE: I have now felt the need to justify my existance, and done so. I am not a sock. I am an editor, who is currently working on this article, I have added a few bits on other articles, and created a page, where I go is not determined for Wikipedia, I however will edit properly on this article, and do in in an unbiased POV. The reason I have raised the ALERT, is because HOURS of my time was removed by simple edits without descriptions. I am watching S Marshall doing the exact same thing from his POV as QuackGuru did from his POV. To me its not different. If the ARB panel wants to go through the entire song and dance again so be it. S Marshall has put out his agenda, I have show 50% of the 4 samples I put up over the last 2 days bad in the minds of other editors. I through my hands up in the air with frustration....but I do not leave the room.Mystery Wolff (talk) 07:58, 5 December 2015 (UTC) Comment This is now the second or third section on this topic. It is now very WP:POINTy. Article talk pages are for discussion of article content for the purpose of improving the article, not for in depth discussions of other editors behaviour. You have been directed to places witch are appropriate a few times. If you feel it is necessary to continue please go there. AlbinoFerret 15:35, 5 December 2015 (UTC) ReplyAlbinoFerret: If you read the boxed quote, I was asked by an ARB member, in post with 3 other ARB members talking, to answer the question. The above is my answer. I know that you have been involved in many of those multiple ARB on this Article. I have read them after the fact. They are quite incredibly long. What I wrote above would be an introduction paragraph to an entire chapter. The thing is, the ARB has 8 members who all have to read the entire thing. @AlbinoFerret: you on the other hand don't have to read any of it. If the desire of the ARB is going to be an endless ping pong loop back into their committee, then so be it, but I will answer the question, where asked. You can simply skip to the next, they don't get to skip ARB. I was asked a question, after repeated accusations by SMcCandlish, and I replied in same forum I was asked, which is appropriate.. I also explained how it relates. I replied in same forum I was asked, which is appropriate. To you assertion of WP:POINTy • do explain why the subject meets inclusion criteria, providing reliable sources to support your assertion. • do participate in the discussion, basing your argument on policies and guidelines. • do explain on the article's talk page why you feel the material merits inclusion. • do explain why the use of the source in question was appropriate in that instance, or find a better source for the information. • do find a source for it, make the referencing clear if it was already present, or explain why the content in question shouldn't require a cited source. • do watch recent changes and fact-check anything that looks at all suspicious. • do express your concerns on the talk pages of articles • do opine that the guideline's purpose would remain clear even if half of the examples were deleted. How is it that I am not doing those items? I think actually I am. Have you read your cite? Mystery Wolff (talk) 17:57, 5 December 2015 (UTC) Yes, even the section headers are getting TLDR. Johnbod (talk) 17:22, 5 December 2015 (UTC) You don't have to read it if you find it too long. I do always tend to fill in the subject line. Because I hate opening items like "This needs attention" or "Gosh this now!". Feel free to skip, and hopefully the topic line will make that faster for you. Mystery Wolff (talk) 18:25, 5 December 2015 (UTC) Could an uninvolved sysop intervene here, please?—S Marshall T/C 18:38, 5 December 2015 (UTC) I second that call. While I would rather not, AE may be my next step as this disruption cant continue on the articles talk page. AlbinoFerret 18:45, 5 December 2015 (UTC) @AlbinoFerret: I am in receipt of your accusations, on my Talk page. I spent the time to list out the guidelines for you. And I am according myself to them. I am responding to a question from @EdJohnston: in a thread above which is talking about the blowback from ARB created by QuackGuru, which was closed out, uniquely by the topic ban of the requester, being QuackGuru. I answered a question to me from EdJohnston, I assumed it was necessary to respond. Which I have now done. If EdJohnston wants to archive out this section, fine. I won't be tagteamed. I won't edit Wikipedia if an associated cliche of POV biased editors canvas themselves and simply delete all my time and effort. @S Marshall: has made edits which are reverted for reasons he won't even try to dispute in the talk pages. That is not Bold editing. That is taking over an article and knowing that 3RR won't allow anyone to interject (10+ edits a day). Without raising the problem, I would need to assemble a team just to be able to respond. I am a editing by myself. I find myself in a well acquainted usual suspects to ARBs which have caused this Article to be locked. You can skip this topic, and let my response to EdJohnston be his to address. Please don't post threats to my talk page. Ping me in the article at question and I will be responsive. Please don't canvass any further. And please read the bullet points above. If I felt I was doing something wrong, I would not be public about it. I believe I am operating properly. Thank you Mystery Wolff (talk) 19:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC) User:Mystery Wolff, can you please wind this up? If this goes on much longer, it looks like you are disrupting the talk page. You write vaguely with lots of charges about other editors, and at great length. This kind of behavior brings you closer to enforcement of the discretionary sanctions. You could easily avoid this outcome if you could work patiently on drafting proposals for improving the content. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 19:59, 5 December 2015 (UTC) I will. Wikipedia affords me the entire paper-trail of canvassing, which I am uncertain is a good thing...but I do know it when I see it, a Tag-team is not hard to see also. If any experienced hands in Wikipedia have been seen editing in a style like mine, I would be surprised. So I hope the question on sockpuppet and "too familar with the rules" has been dispensed. There is a question by Lankiveil above which I will respond to above, which should serve to wind that one down too. This topic section I am find if you collapse. If I took your question as literal when it was supposed to be rhetorical-well its moot now--I am find if you collapse or archive this sub-subject, whichever is most appeasing. Mystery Wolff (talk) 20:29, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Grana2014

Like P Walford (talk · contribs), I too had noticed that this article contains an awful lot of references to Grana 2014 and I was meaning to begin a discussion about this myself. Do we feel it's getting too much weight?—S Marshall T/C 14:48, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, There's a lot of data being pulled from it. Some of that was questioned at the time (see farsalinos letter of response) and hasn't been borne out in susbsequent published work. We probably ought to go through where it's being used and see if the info is still relevant in subsequent studies. SPACKlick (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

There are 2 sources named Grana from 2014. 1 is the report for the Who, 2 is a primary source. I would think that the primary sources is not even suitable for the article. So far we have relied on secondary sources. If it remains any addition should be real small and attributed. AlbinoFerret 14:57, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

List of claims sourced to Grana & Glantz 2014. "E-cigarettes: a scientific review."

1) They are often cylindrical, but come in many variations. 2) their use may delay or deter quitting smoking. 3) E-cigarettes create vapor consisting of ultrafine particles. 4) The vapor contains similar chemicals to the e-liquid, together with tiny amounts of toxicants and heavy metals. (with Hajek 2014) 5) E-cigarette vapor contains fewer toxic substances than cigarette smoke. 6) is probably less harmful to users and bystanders. (With Hajek) 7) Less serious adverse effects include throat and mouth inflammation, vomiting, nausea, and cough. 8) Most US e-cigarette users still smoke traditional cigarettes. 9) Manufacturers have increased advertising, using marketing techniques like those used to sell cigarettes in the 1950s and 1960s. 10) E-cigarette users mostly keep smoking traditional cigarettes 11) Many young people who use e-cigarettes also smoke tobacco 12) Some young people who have tried an e-cigarette have never smoked tobacco, so ECs can be a starting point for nicotine use 13) Others use them to circumvent smoke-free laws and policies, or to cut back on cigarette smoking 14) and considerable variability between vaporizers and in quality of their liquid ingredients and thus the contents of the aerosol delivered to the user. (With Odum 2012 and O'Connor 2012) 15) Less serious adverse effects from e-cigarette use include throat and mouth inflammation, vomiting, nausea, and cough 16) [there is also risk from] ... fires caused by vaporizer malfunction 17) E-cigarette vapor contains fewer toxic substances ... [than cigarette smoke] 18) E-cigarettes create vapor that consists of ultrafine particles, with the majority of particles in the ultrafine range 19) The vapor has been found to contain flavors, propylene glycol, glycerin, nicotine, tiny amounts of toxicants, carcinogens, heavy metals, and metal nanoparticles, and other chemicals. (With Hajek) 20) while another 2014 review has found that in studies up to a third of young people who have ever vaped have never smoked tobacco 21) A 2014 review stated that tobacco and e-cigarette companies interact with consumers for their policy agenda. 22) The companies use websites, social media, and marketing to get consumers involved in opposing bills that include e-cigarettes in smoke-free laws. 23) This is similar to tobacco industry activity going back to the 1980s. 24) These approaches were used in Europe to minimize the EU Tobacco Product Directive in October 2013. 25) The legal status of e-cigarettes is currently pending in many countries 26) Some countries such Brazil, Singapore, the Seychelles, and Uruguay have banned e-cigarettes. 27) A 2014 review said, "the e-cigarette companies have been rapidly expanding using aggressive marketing messages similar to those used to promote cigarettes in the 1950s and 1960s" 28) While advertising of tobacco products is banned in most countries, television and radio e-cigarette advertising in some countries may be indirectly encouraging traditional cigarette smoking 29) There is no evidence that the cigarette brands are selling e-cigarettes as part of a plan to phase out traditional cigarettes, despite some claiming to want to cooperate in "harm reduction".

List of Claims sourced to Grana & Ling 2014. "Smoking revolution": a content analysis of electronic cigarette retail websites

1)A 2014 review found "Health-related and lifestyle appeals may also encourage initiation among young non-smokers, as they may convey that trying e-cigarettes is less risky and more socially appealing, which may ameliorate negative beliefs or concerns about nicotine addiction." 2)Marketing might appeal to young people as well as adults. (With Bauld 2014) 3)A 2014 analysis of the 2012 content of 59 single-brand electronic cigarette websites found that they often made unscientific health and smoking cessation claims, and 89% of them stated that the product can be used "anywhere", especially where smoking bans apply 4)The same study found "only a small percentage of sites had an age restriction, which was only to click a box to state that the user is over a certain age. This easily-circumvented age verification leaves open room for youth access and marketing exposure."

One is a reviiew, though not I think for the WHO - it cites the 2014 WHO report. It is used a lot. The other, little cited, is primary, but about advertising claims, which in itself is one of the aspects of the subject rather outside MEDRS' scope (and also one where the expertise of the medical authors may be questioned). No doubt it has been picked up by other reviews by now though. Johnbod (talk) 15:10, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I was referring to the second (primary) source. Its inclusion criteria severely limit its usefulness. PubMed says it has been cited 30 times, but only by one review -- Grana 2014. P Walford (talk) 15:41, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• Of the claims sourced to the second (primary) source, I think that claims #1, #2 and #4 are of the "sky is blue" level of obviousness. I feel they can be said in Wikipedia's voice, using this source as an inline citation, and without encumbering the text with in-text attribution. Claim #3 is not a major contribution to the sum of human knowledge and I feel the article could be improved by removing it.—S Marshall T/C 15:48, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree that 1, 2 and 4 are sufficiently supported claims to be in wikipedia's voice. 3 does contain relevant information but the delivery of that information could stand to be significantly trimmed in wordiness. SPACKlick (talk) 15:57, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• Looks like we have consensus then.—S Marshall T/C 18:22, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

26 hours since the question was raised is too short a time for that. A large part of the problem with this page has been that the number of edits and topics made keeping-up with it a task requiring considerable time daily. We need to stop this. Johnbod (talk) 02:44, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Merge Discussion - Sub articles Safety, Aerosol, and E-liquid

As per the discussion above I would like to start the moving/merging of these articles.

1. Move the Safety information from Aerosol to Safety (if it isnt already there).

2. Move the Aerosol section of Safety to Aerosol and replace it with a summery and link to Aersol.

3. Move the E-liquid information to Aerosol and create/rename Electronic cigarette aerosol‎ and e-liquid. Changing E-liquid to a redirect to the renamed Aerosol page.

Thoughts? Of course I support this. AlbinoFerret 15:09, 7 December 2015 (UTC) Pinging SMcCandlish and Mystery Wolff as they took part in the discussion above. AlbinoFerret

• I'm broadly in favour.—S Marshall T/C 18:12, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose I think it's fine as it is. We've heard much discussion of articles getting too long; a merge will make them longer. Cloudjpk (talk) 19:47, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support particularly with 1 and 2. I think 3 is a good idea now but I could see things coming out in research that lead to it being split again in the next 18 months. SPACKlick (talk) 20:39, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Since the e-liquid page will become a redirect, reversing that and making it a page is pretty easy. All the info will still be in history. AlbinoFerret 21:03, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, move and merge. There is no need to keep it as is for a reason that might or might not happen at some point in the future. Also, as discussed earlier, it makes sense to have liquid and aerosol combined and "safety" in the already existing "safety of" article.--TMCk (talk) 21:06, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree, and as it sits now Aerosol is a coatrack, nothing was moved over to Aerosol from Safety when the page was created, just copied. Nothing will be lost and we will end up with two nice sized articles and a redirect for e-liquid to move into if necessary in the future. I will be doing all the work in sandboxes and moving it all in two edits once everything is done so as not to disrupt the pages in case readers are reading it. AlbinoFerret 21:23, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support. This would improve the logic of the articles for our readers, and reduce the number of avenues of strife. Support #3, not just 1 & 2; while the proposed name is not the shortest possible name such an article could have it's the most WP:PRECISE, and is in keeping with WP:DESCRIPTDIS.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:29, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Although i agree with SPACKlick that e-liquid and aerosol will end up getting split again. But it should happen organically, so that once there is enough content to split, then it happens. --Kim D. Petersen 22:50, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• Same view as stated above, which seems inline: PROPOSAL Merge e-liquid and electronic cigarette aerosol into one Called: E-Liquid and E-Liquid Aerosol (Vape)
  

I can see removing (Vape) but it does add clarification with a unique word, that is not Vapor. E-liquid is not vaporized by the dictionary definitions. However Vape is a new word.

Removal of Electronic Cigarette is good, because its more associate with one variety of "Vaping" equipment. E-Liquid is used in all forms of EC and later generations of Electronic cigarettes and MODs. E-Liquid is devices agnostic, while "Electronic Cigarette Aerosol" is not.

The aerosolization of E-Liquid makes the vapor constituents not changed very much. Radically different that combustion artifacts. They are close enough to group to one.Mystery Wolff (talk) 07:11, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

The "other devices" you refer to are also e-cigarettes. Device neutrality isn't a concern. E-liquid is vaporised, by dictionary definition. The aerosol produced is a vapour, by dictionary definition. It's by technical definition that they're not. SPACKlick (talk) 10:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose There is simply no unclear benefit in merging the articles, as it will only cause two related topics to be inaccurately contained within one article. There is sufficient content for two separate articles, even in its current form. We do not merge articles in order to later split them when both clearly fulfill WP:NOTE. The current article titles are very clear as to what they refer to, a new title would not be. CFCF 💌 📧 19:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)Edit:CFCF 💌 📧 17:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

To clarify, my concern is that readers will not find the proposed article, or will be unsure as to what it covers. I'm also missing a proposed new article name. CFCF 💌 📧 19:47, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

There is no "new" article, simply a merging of two that already exist. E-liquid will become a redirect so anyone looking for e-liquid will be able to find it. If e-liquid grows, something that really hasnt happened, and at best those thinking it will are looking into the crystal ball, the redirect can be easily undone. Also e-liquid and the aerosol of e-cigs are pretty much made of the same things and so have at least that in common. Its a really bad fit elsewhere. AlbinoFerret 20:05, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I just don't think the new title is clear enough, as creating it would require pretty much two separate parts: first the aerosol section, then the e-liquid section. I might support it in case the title were in any way more clear – I do see the benefit of tying the topics together, but I'd be more supportive of moving everything to E-liquid and having aerosol as a section (and of course keeping a safety section with a {{main}}). See the policy for titles including WP:AND. CFCF 💌 📧 20:10, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:AND allows related topics with the use of the word and. The problem with moving it to e-liquid is that the majority of the information is about the aerosol and not e-liquid. AlbinoFerret 20:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

But the aerosol is E-liquid, is it not? It just strikes me as a far more natural division and a much easier one to build an article upon. If the alternative is to include "and" I support merging it there instead.

I think the reader stands to benefit, and it seems due to include information on the use/aerosolization in the main article on E-liquid CFCF 💌 📧 20:25, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Not necessarily the same, though they share some chemicals in common. There are some changes that happen during the aerosol process and there is information dealing with particles, and second and third hand exposure. That information is at least double the e-liquid stuff if not more. Also when I do the work others are probably going to want to make changes and bring more things to one or the other, thats fine, more power to them. They will be in the same article. So far what I see is a problem with the articles name when merged. This can be dealt with after the work is done if need be. I really dont care about the name or for it at the present name, and if anyone has a good suggestion for the name of the combined article I am all for working it out so the best name is found. At present we have a coatrack article, my goal is to make the page a true daughter page. AlbinoFerret 20:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't really understand what you mean by that. What is a coatrack aricle? Daughter pages should include summaries of main page topics and expand upon them, and any article on eliquid/aerosol must include information on the safety of their use. Your current draft User:AlbinoFerret/sandbox/ecig Aerosol has with the following removal of safety information [10], [11], [12] moved in the wrong direction. I cannot support a move/merge if the only reason for doing so is to remove safety information. CFCF 💌 📧 21:39, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

A WP:COATRACK is when an editor takes and copies things from one article to create another leaving the original article as it was to not focus on the topic but to create a page that is on another topic. Aerosol was not a daughter page with a movement of a section from Safety to aerosol and a summery put in its place. It simply duplicated what was on Safety, not fucused on Aerosol, but the Safety of Chemicals. So in effect we had two Safety articles with one having only information from the other. What I have done is move back the single claim from Aerosol that wasnt on Safety and the chart on chemicals to Safety, and broken out the Aerosol section to Aerosol. Nothing was removed from Wikipedia, but the claims that were Safety related should be on Safety. The claims that are on Aerosol should be on Aerosol. Granted some things will probably still need to be added. That I leave after the pages is done so others can add and edit. The sole point of this proposal is to create a true daughter page and not a coatrack. Are you in favor of keeping a coatrack? AlbinoFerret 21:53, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I think the issue here is that you remove all safety information, despite much of it being related. Most of the concerns with electronic cigarette use are also relevant when it comes to eliquid/aerosol, so there must be some amount of overlap between the articles, as well as a {{main}} tag to the safety article. While there is need for some trimming the current draft is not adequate in any way, and it feels deceptive that it was not mentioned here. We need to come to a consensus of what should be kept/discarded, and that needs to be done before any merge. This may require a RfC or at least strong consensus. CFCF 💌 📧 10:47, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Support There seems ample benefit in merging these articles, since they are closely related, and this should be done as long as organic transitions can be achieved (and I think they can). Multiple related topics should always be contained within one article, if it is possible to do so within a good amount of space (and you can here). There is, frankly, not enough content for separate articles. LesVegas (talk) 05:06, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Your entire argument falls on the fact that there is evidently enough content for separate articles, that is not the topic of the discussion. The discussion covers whether there is benefit in merging, not that there is insufficient coverage to justify two articles. CFCF 💌 📧 10:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Apparently you didn't read my argument all that well, especially the part where I said, "multiple related topics should always be contained within one article", "as long as organic transitions can be achieved" especially if we're combining near-stubs to form one extensive and cohesive article, which is how we should be doing things around here. The reader always stands to benefit from one article containing all the information on a related topic they might need, instead of never being aware of an article they're looking for even existing all because they're small separate articles floating around in cyber-Wikispace. LesVegas (talk) 14:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Have you looked at the articles? They are very far from stubs and are on markedly separate topics. Combining overlapping concepts or related topics in a single article at all times is an absurd statement – you can see policy for clarification: WP:PAGEDECIDE CFCF 💌 📧 19:22, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I said they were near-stubs. Aerosol is a near-stub. E-liquid is a near-stub. Yes I have looked at them. And many of the safety concerns are from aerosol and E-liquid anyway so combining these into safety is the most reasonable thing to do. LesVegas (talk) 23:51, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

That is just plain wrong, Electronic cigarette aerosol is 18,185 bytes [13], while E-liquid is 15,173 bytes [14]. If you believe the articles are stubs or even near-stubs, I would advise you to read WP:STUB. CFCF 💌 📧 08:02, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Taking into account the pictures and other formatting those may be the sizes CFCF, but sizes are of prose usually. But the readable prose of Aerosol is 7.3kb and E-liquid is 4.6kb. Stubs. AlbinoFerret 09:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You can't classify them as stubs on the basis of winning an argument, and Electronic cigarette aerosol is not classified as a stub [15], but as a start class article within multiple wikiprojects—the other article is not classified at all, but should similarly be a start-class article.
Generally 1.5kb is the limit for a stub article. These are either 3 or 5 times as large. The other potential cut-off mentioned at WP:STUB is 250 words, and the articles are:

• E-liquid — 707 words
• Electronic cigarette aerosol — 1069 words

Hence, I repeat—that argument is simply wrong. CFCF 💌 📧 17:17, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

In any event, they are small articles, nitpicking on calling it a stub or a small article isnt important. Combining them will put together two phases of basically the same thing together on one page making it easier for readers to easily find information on the different phases. AlbinoFerret 17:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Which I'm not arguing against, but if we combine them it must under a reasonable title, with a reasonable section on safety—and not under faulty premises. If the entire argument relies (As LesVegas's did) on a statement that just isn't true, then it should be disregarded. We can't just make stuff up/support crazy statements because it suits a particular point of view. CFCF 💌 📧 17:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Thats your opinion, I disagree. His opinion on putting together topics that are closely related is a good reason. That you disagree is evident. AlbinoFerret 18:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Smoking cessation

I present for your consideration a very, very drastic simplification of this section:-

Definitely not going to get consensus

Current text Proposed text As of 2014, research on the safety and efficacy of e-cigarette use for smoking cessation is limited. E-cigarettes have not been subject to the type of efficacy testing as nicotine replacement products. The evidence suggests that e-cigarettes can supply nicotine at concentrations that are enough to substitute for traditional cigarettes. A 2014 Cochrane review found limited evidence of a benefit as a smoking cessation aid from a small number of studies, which included two randomized controlled trials (RCT). A third RCT in 2014 found that in smokers who were "not interested" in quitting, after eight weeks of e-cigarette use 34% of those who used e-cigarettes had quit smoking in comparison with 0% of users who did not use e-cigarettes, with considerable reductions in smoking found in the e-cigarette group. A 2014 UK cross-sectional population survey of smokers who tried to stop without professional assistance, found that those who used e-cigarettes were more likely to stop smoking than those who used nicotine replacement products. While there are some reports of improved smoking cessation, especially with intensive e-cigarette users, there are also several studies showing a decline in cessation in dual users. The US Preventive Services Task Force found there is not enough evidence to recommend e-cigarettes for quitting smoking in adults. A 2015 review found that e-cigarettes for quitting smoking were generally similar to a placebo. The same review concluded that while they may have a benefit for decreasing cigarette use in smokers, they have a limited benefit in quitting smoking. A 2014 review found e-cigarettes may have some potential for reducing smoking. A 2015 review found that vaping was not associated with successful quitting, but there are reports of quitting smoking or reduction. Since smoking reduction may just be dual use, smoking reduction may not be a positive public health result. A 2015 review found that e-cigarette users had 20% higher cessation rates than users of nicotine replacement products, which suggested that factors other than nicotine replacement products may contribute to quitting smoking. A 2014 review found limited evidence that e-cigarettes do not seem to improve cessation rates compared to regulated FDA nicotine replacement products. Two 2014 reviews found no evidence that e-cigarettes are more effective than existing nicotine replacement products for smoking cessation. A 2014 review found they may be as effective, but not more, compared to nicotine patches for short-term smoking cessation. However, a randomized trial found 29% of e-cigarette users maintained e-cigarette use at 6 months while 8% for patch users, indicating that vaping may continue after other quit methods. A 2014 review found that e-cigarettes have not been proven to be better than regulated medication for smoking cessation. A 2014 review found four experimental studies and six cohort studies that indicated that electronic cigarettes reduced the desire to smoke and withdrawal symptoms. This review also noted that two cohort studies found that electronic cigarettes led to a reduction in the number of cigarettes smoked per day. Nicotine-containing e-cigarettes were associated with greater effectiveness for quitting smoking than e-cigarettes without nicotine. A 2014 review concluded that the adverse public health effects resulting from the widespread use of e-cigarettes could be significant, in part due to the possibility that they could undermine smoking cessation. This review therefore stated for their use to be limited to smokers who are unwilling or unable to quit. A 2014 review found that personal e-cigarette use may reduce overall health risk in comparison to traditional cigarettes. However, e-cigarettes could have a broad adverse effect for a population by expanding initiation and lowering cessation of smoking. If e-cigarettes are used to quit smoking, they could reduce harm even more if the tobacco user quit using both. Any residual risk of vaping should be weighed against the risk of continuing or returning to smoking, taking account of the low success rate of currently-approved smoking cessation medications. Some medical authorities recommend that e-cigarettes have a role in smoking cessation, and others disagree. The evidence is contradictory.(Lots of little numbers) Probably the most positive view of e-cigarettes' role is from Public Health England who recommend that stop-smoking practitioners should:- (1) advise clients who want to quit to try e-cigarettes if they are not succeeding with conventional NRT; and (2) advise clients who cannot or do not want to quit to switch to e-cigarettes to reduce smoking-related disease.(Little number) The least positive views are embodied in 2015 reviews from the United States which conclude that e-cigarettes are not associated with positive health outcomes, not associated with quitting and are no more effective than a placebo at cutting down.(Two little numbers)

Improvements welcome.—S Marshall T/C 20:29, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Much too short. This sort of simplification is far too drastic. It might go in the lead, or starting the section, or in a some sort of overview section, or in Smoking cessation or the Simple English Wiki, but won't do as the whole section for the main article here. With my Quack hat on, what's your source for "Probably the most positive view of e-cigarettes' role is ..."? I know you hanker after this sort of brutal simplicity, but I think people who read beyond the lead expect more. Johnbod (talk) 20:34, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree much to short. But I am sure there is a lot that can be removed from that section. Perhaps take it one paragraph at a time, numbering the sentences and see if anyone thinks they should stay or can propose a different text for it. AlbinoFerret 20:39, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

@Johnbod: Could I sell it to you on the basis that it's a better starting point for future development than the current turgid morass of contradictory statistics without introduction or conclusion? :D—S Marshall T/C 20:57, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I see it as the draft of a useful and necessary summary, which should go somewhere, but not to replace the whole section. Since that is written, one might even start a sub-article for the full lot, & keep some here. No one much will read it, but some will. With luck it will all be rather out of date in a year or two anyway. Johnbod (talk) 21:01, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• Okay. Second verse, same as the first, a little bit longer and a little bit worse:-

Current text

Proposed text

As of 2014, research on the safety and efficacy of e-cigarette use for smoking cessation is limited. E-cigarettes have not been subject to the type of efficacy testing as nicotine replacement products. The evidence suggests that e-cigarettes can supply nicotine at concentrations that are enough to substitute for traditional cigarettes. A 2014 Cochrane review found limited evidence of a benefit as a smoking cessation aid from a small number of studies, which included two randomized controlled trials (RCT). A third RCT in 2014 found that in smokers who were "not interested" in quitting, after eight weeks of e-cigarette use 34% of those who used e-cigarettes had quit smoking in comparison with 0% of users who did not use e-cigarettes, with considerable reductions in smoking found in the e-cigarette group. A 2014 UK cross-sectional population survey of smokers who tried to stop without professional assistance, found that those who used e-cigarettes were more likely to stop smoking than those who used nicotine replacement products. While there are some reports of improved smoking cessation, especially with intensive e-cigarette users, there are also several studies showing a decline in cessation in dual users. The US Preventive Services Task Force found there is not enough evidence to recommend e-cigarettes for quitting smoking in adults. A 2015 review found that e-cigarettes for quitting smoking were generally similar to a placebo. The same review concluded that while they may have a benefit for decreasing cigarette use in smokers, they have a limited benefit in quitting smoking. A 2014 review found e-cigarettes may have some potential for reducing smoking. A 2015 review found that vaping was not associated with successful quitting, but there are reports of quitting smoking or reduction. Since smoking reduction may just be dual use, smoking reduction may not be a positive public health result. A 2015 review found that e-cigarette users had 20% higher cessation rates than users of nicotine replacement products, which suggested that factors other than nicotine replacement products may contribute to quitting smoking. A 2014 review found limited evidence that e-cigarettes do not seem to improve cessation rates compared to regulated FDA nicotine replacement products. Two 2014 reviews found no evidence that e-cigarettes are more effective than existing nicotine replacement products for smoking cessation. A 2014 review found they may be as effective, but not more, compared to nicotine patches for short-term smoking cessation. However, a randomized trial found 29% of e-cigarette users maintained e-cigarette use at 6 months while 8% for patch users, indicating that vaping may continue after other quit methods. A 2014 review found that e-cigarettes have not been proven to be better than regulated medication for smoking cessation. A 2014 review found four experimental studies and six cohort studies that indicated that electronic cigarettes reduced the desire to smoke and withdrawal symptoms. This review also noted that two cohort studies found that electronic cigarettes led to a reduction in the number of cigarettes smoked per day. Nicotine-containing e-cigarettes were associated with greater effectiveness for quitting smoking than e-cigarettes without nicotine. A 2014 review concluded that the adverse public health effects resulting from the widespread use of e-cigarettes could be significant, in part due to the possibility that they could undermine smoking cessation. This review therefore stated for their use to be limited to smokers who are unwilling or unable to quit. A 2014 review found that personal e-cigarette use may reduce overall health risk in comparison to traditional cigarettes. However, e-cigarettes could have a broad adverse effect for a population by expanding initiation and lowering cessation of smoking. If e-cigarettes are used to quit smoking, they could reduce harm even more if the tobacco user quit using both. Any residual risk of vaping should be weighed against the risk of continuing or returning to smoking, taking account of the low success rate of currently-approved smoking cessation medications.

Some medical authorities recommend that e-cigarettes have a role in smoking cessation, and others disagree. The evidence is contradictory.(Lots of little numbers) Views of e-cigarettes' role range from on the one hand Public Health England, who recommend that stop-smoking practitioners should:- (1) advise clients who want to quit to try e-cigarettes if they are not succeeding with conventional NRT; and (2) advise clients who cannot or do not want to quit to switch to e-cigarettes to reduce smoking-related disease.(Little number) to, on the other hand, 2015 reviews from the United States which conclude that e-cigarettes are not associated with positive health outcomes, not associated with quitting and are no more effective than a placebo at cutting down.(Two little numbers) The case in favour One 2015 review found that e-cigarette users had 20% higher cessation rates than users of nicotine replacement products.(Little number) A 2014 review concluded that they were as effective as nicotine patches for quitting smoking over the short term,(Little number) and another 2014 review concluded that electronic cigarettes reduced withdrawal symptoms and mitigated the desire to smoke.(Little number) A 2014 review found that personal e-cigarette use may reduce overall health risk in comparison to traditional cigarettes.(Little number) (Any other key points I missed?) The case against E-cigarettes have not been subject to the same efficacy testing as nicotine replacement products.(Little number) Several authorities take the view that there is not enough evidence to recommend e-cigarettes for quitting smoking in adults,(Little number) and there are studies showing a decline in smoking cessation among dual users.(Little number) A 2014 review found that e-cigarettes do not seem to improve cessation rates compared to regulated nicotine replacement products.(Little number) Another trial found 29% of e-cigarette users were still vaping at 6 months, but only 8% of patch users still wore patches at 6 months.(Little number) (Any other key points I missed?)

Splitting the section into a case against and a case for is not productive, because it allows readers to very simply read what they like and ignore the rest, regardless of their position. Also I object to the removal of "research on the safety and efficacy of e-cigarette use for smoking cessation is limited." as well as not mentioning the Cochrane review. CFCF 💌 📧 21:42, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm certainly happy to put "research on the safety and efficacy etc." back in, and it probably belongs at the start of the first paragraph. The Cochrane review's conclusions are mentioned, but it's not described as a Cochrane review in the text. (I prefer this. Anyone who knows what a Cochrane review is or why it matters, will be reading Wikipedia articles with a very close eye on the references. They'll see that it's one.) I'm happy to divide the text up differently, but I do rather urge that we put in headings of some kind, because three paragraphs of unsorted statistics are deeply unedifying.—S Marshall T/C 21:55, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

• Strongly object to these destructive edits. They remove information, skew all attempts at NPOV. S Marshall has said he wants to do drastic changes. These then are those. There can be improvements, but simply knocking out and off all the viewpoints that contradict an editors POV, by definition removes the NPOV of the article. These edits do just that. When these are raised as drastic by the OP, its a clear sign. Drastic measures are not called for. As mentioned elsewhere on this TALK page, this is what I believe is the reason to put in Full Protection of this page. I will cite these, if the previous ARB does not pick it up at their own instigation. Mystery Wolff (talk) 22:23, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

An editor is not entitled to a POV or allowed to place their POV into an article. NPOV says we only reflect the POV found in sources. A subsection of that page WP:WEIGHT says that we add the POV of the sources in proportion to that found in reliable sources. AlbinoFerret 23:49, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I think there's an issue of style with the edit moving from the hyper condensed unrelated factoid style now to a style that's too conversational. I think, if the case for and case against sections were merged, then those two (current and proposed) side by side could form a productive starting point for discussion. You have removed the major issue I have with the section, reams of contradictory early form studies given no context or relation which is a positive. SPACKlick (talk) 09:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm looking for suggested headings.—S Marshall T/C 17:16, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Okay, with apologies to Johnbod for making lots of bytes of changes to this page, I think side-by-side comparisons are important. This is what we have at the moment:-

Current text

Proposed text

As of 2014, research on the safety and efficacy of e-cigarette use for smoking cessation is limited. E-cigarettes have not been subject to the type of efficacy testing as nicotine replacement products. The evidence suggests that e-cigarettes can supply nicotine at concentrations that are enough to substitute for traditional cigarettes. A 2014 Cochrane review found limited evidence of a benefit as a smoking cessation aid from a small number of studies, which included two randomized controlled trials (RCT). A third RCT in 2014 found that in smokers who were "not interested" in quitting, after eight weeks of e-cigarette use 34% of those who used e-cigarettes had quit smoking in comparison with 0% of users who did not use e-cigarettes, with considerable reductions in smoking found in the e-cigarette group. A 2014 UK cross-sectional population survey of smokers who tried to stop without professional assistance, found that those who used e-cigarettes were more likely to stop smoking than those who used nicotine replacement products. While there are some reports of improved smoking cessation, especially with intensive e-cigarette users, there are also several studies showing a decline in cessation in dual users. The US Preventive Services Task Force found there is not enough evidence to recommend e-cigarettes for quitting smoking in adults. A 2015 review found that e-cigarettes for quitting smoking were generally similar to a placebo. The same review concluded that while they may have a benefit for decreasing cigarette use in smokers, they have a limited benefit in quitting smoking. A 2014 review found e-cigarettes may have some potential for reducing smoking. A 2015 review found that vaping was not associated with successful quitting, but there are reports of quitting smoking or reduction. Since smoking reduction may just be dual use, smoking reduction may not be a positive public health result. A 2015 review found that e-cigarette users had 20% higher cessation rates than users of nicotine replacement products, which suggested that factors other than nicotine replacement products may contribute to quitting smoking. A 2014 review found limited evidence that e-cigarettes do not seem to improve cessation rates compared to regulated FDA nicotine replacement products. Two 2014 reviews found no evidence that e-cigarettes are more effective than existing nicotine replacement products for smoking cessation. A 2014 review found they may be as effective, but not more, compared to nicotine patches for short-term smoking cessation. However, a randomized trial found 29% of e-cigarette users maintained e-cigarette use at 6 months while 8% for patch users, indicating that vaping may continue after other quit methods. A 2014 review found that e-cigarettes have not been proven to be better than regulated medication for smoking cessation. A 2014 review found four experimental studies and six cohort studies that indicated that electronic cigarettes reduced the desire to smoke and withdrawal symptoms. This review also noted that two cohort studies found that electronic cigarettes led to a reduction in the number of cigarettes smoked per day. Nicotine-containing e-cigarettes were associated with greater effectiveness for quitting smoking than e-cigarettes without nicotine. A 2014 review concluded that the adverse public health effects resulting from the widespread use of e-cigarettes could be significant, in part due to the possibility that they could undermine smoking cessation. This review therefore stated for their use to be limited to smokers who are unwilling or unable to quit. A 2014 review found that personal e-cigarette use may reduce overall health risk in comparison to traditional cigarettes. However, e-cigarettes could have a broad adverse effect for a population by expanding initiation and lowering cessation of smoking. If e-cigarettes are used to quit smoking, they could reduce harm even more if the tobacco user quit using both. Any residual risk of vaping should be weighed against the risk of continuing or returning to smoking, taking account of the low success rate of currently-approved smoking cessation medications.

The available research on the safety and efficacy of e-cigarette use for smoking cessation is limited and the evidence is contradictory. Some medical authorities recommend that e-cigarettes have a role in smoking cessation, and others disagree. Views of e-cigarettes' role range from on the one hand Public Health England, who recommend that stop-smoking practitioners should:- (1) advise clients who want to quit to try e-cigarettes if they are not succeeding with conventional NRT; and (2) advise clients who cannot or do not want to quit to switch to e-cigarettes to reduce smoking-related disease to, on the other hand, 2015 reviews from the United States which conclude that e-cigarettes are not associated with positive health outcomes, not associated with quitting and are no more effective than a placebo at cutting down. Reviews in 2014 and 2015 found that e-cigarette users had 20% higher cessation rates than users of nicotine replacement products; that they were as effective as nicotine patches for quitting smoking over the short term; that they reduced withdrawal symptoms and mitigated the desire to smoke; and that personal e-cigarette use may reduce overall health risk in comparison to traditional cigarettes. However, e-cigarettes have not been subject to the same efficacy testing as nicotine replacement products. Several authorities take the view that there is not enough evidence to recommend e-cigarettes for quitting smoking in adults, and there are studies showing a decline in smoking cessation among dual users. A 2014 review found that e-cigarettes do not seem to improve cessation rates compared to regulated nicotine replacement products, and a trial found 29% of e-cigarette users were still vaping at 6 months, but only 8% of patch users still wore patches at 6 months.

Are there further comments or objections at all?—S Marshall T/C 19:53, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Vast improvement to readability. AlbinoFerret 20:14, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• This text singles out the only report with a positive analysis and mentions it by name, while completely neglecting to name the WHO, CDC, and Cochrane which have come to considerably different conclusions? While easier to read it is clearly not neutral, and polishing the prose must be done without tilting everything in favor of ecig use. CFCF 💌 📧 20:31, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm trying to achieve the same balance of pro-e-cig-ness vs anti-e-cig-ness in this section as the Cochrane Review, so it's probably appropriate for me to quote its conclusions in full. It says: There is evidence from two trials that ECs help smokers to stop smoking long-term compared with placebo ECs. However, the small number of trials, low event rates and wide confidence intervals around the estimates mean that our confidence in the result is rated ’low’ by GRADE standards. The lack of difference between the effect of ECs compared with nicotine patches found in one trial is uncertain for similar reasons. ECs appear to help smokers unable to stop smoking altogether to reduce their cigarette consumption when compared with placebo ECs and nicotine patches, but the above limitations also affect certainty in this finding. In addition, lack of biochemical assessment of the actual reduction in smoke intake further limits this evidence. No evidence emerged that short-term EC use is associated with health risk. The text I've proposed does achieve this and is tolerably NPOV. I'm happy to remove the mention of Public Health England if you feel it would help.—S Marshall T/C 21:25, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• Warnock's dilemma here.—S Marshall T/C 08:56, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The feedback has been given. I for one, am entirely against these edits because I think it removes valuable content arbitrarily. There is well cited information that you are seeking to remove. SM, you have said,"I have described my intentions on this talk page on a number of occasions previously, but this may have been before you started editing. I intend to rewrite this article so that it's accessible to a schoolchild -- a vulnerable person who's heard of e-cigarettes and is considering taking a puff. This is the kind of person who is likely to be turning to Wikipedia for information. I do not believe that is good stewardship of an Article. The changes proposed are drastic, and working off an old version of the section in question. If you want to craft this article specific readership and/or to deposit specific POV, I do believe that is counter-purpose to Wikipedia itself. If you want to present this approach to redoing the entire article, as entire proposal, you are free to do so. For this item here today the feedback is not consensus, and includes my strenuous objection to content recrafting. Hopefully this solves the Warnock query. Mystery Wolff (talk) 10:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Contradiction tags

What is the meaning of this "contradiction" tagging, S Marshall? Is this already explained somewhere? Mystery Wolff what do you see? Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:14, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

@Blue Rasberry: If I look at the new subtopic immediately above this, I would say that everything he tagged as contradictory, he intends to delete. I have not done a 1 for 1 comparison though. The edits being advocated for are incredibly destructive. I am very disappointed in the slant. Mystery Wolff (talk) 22:28, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

There are multiple reasons why tags are added to a page. A tag is an indication that something needs to be fixed. While the fix may include removing something, that is not always the case. They simply draw attention. AlbinoFerret 23:52, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I would say that it is pretty obvious that there is contradictions here. We have statements that A) e-cigs better than NRT at getting people to quit smoking B) as good as NRT at getting people to quit smoking. C) No better than a placebo at getting people to quit smoking. And finally D) Do not help people quit smoking at all. All of these cannot be true at the same time.... thus they must be representative of different views of the current evidence, which should be described in accordance to WP:WEIGHT. Instead of the way they are currently are, where no indication of quality of evidence, prevalence in the literature etc is done. --Kim D. Petersen 01:56, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• If you can read the current text entitled "Smoking cessation" and think it belongs in an encyclopaedia, then you should take up a different hobby. It's a product of QuackGuru's editing technique, which was: find a source, read a source, drop selected close paraphrases into the article, group them by topic, cite them carefully, and then relentlessly guard them against all change because everyone who wants to change the text is a bad-faith POV-pushing SPA. What this has led to is an article which consists of sentences that directly contradict each other, one after the other, and will leave many readers completely bewildered. The "Smoking cessation" section is not the only example, although it's probably the most egregious.—S Marshall T/C 08:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, the literature is full of contradictory claims or conclusions, especially those that seem contradictory in summary, but may be explained by different factors in the research, in ways too complicated (and controversial) to go into here. Quack's method was simply to heap up one-sentence summaries, not pointing out or attempting to explain the contradictions; this was one of the worst aspects of his style, leaving the reader completely confused. Instead we should, using sources, explain that contradictions exist, and point out some factors involved, where we can. But ultimately, as they say of Middle East politics, if you're not confused, you haven't understood things properly. I don't see justification for "I would say that everything he tagged as contradictory, he intends to delete", but certainly this should not happen. Johnbod (talk) 15:51, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• I agree that the section is poor, but the solution is not to tag every single statement with a contradiction tag. There is a discussion going on right now, and the tags only serve to confuse readers even more—lets just continue the discussion. CFCF 💌 📧 20:38, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• Good Lord, you MEDRS people really dislike tags, don't you? First QG, then Doc James, now you, all insistently removing tags from text which is clearly defective and appropriately labelled as such.—S Marshall T/C 21:30, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• I have replaced the tags, the issues were not fixed. Tags inform any editor who looks at the page, not just those who participate on the talk page. AlbinoFerret 21:42, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• Sources area allowed to contradict each other. It is common in a controversial area. What we do is simply state what the different sources say. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:34, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Doc James, AlbinoFerret, CFCF, S Marshall, and Mystery Wolff: I've been watching this page, and i've now seen 4 reverts over this subject guys. Sort it out, or i'll protect the page and or issue blocks. 3RR does not need to be broken for a block. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 09:48, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@DeltaQuad:The "heads up" with a ping is appreciated. I reverted the introduction these 10+ tags because it suggests to the reader that nothing is known, or that everything is controverted, and that was not the case. When that failed, I quickly gave up on reverting their introduction without 3RR. I am remain concerned about the likelihood of mass changes being put in, as described in the section above on smoking cessation. There is no consensus, and the edits are being put in for a targeted audience I do not believe an encyclopedic entry is supposed to cater to, or target audiences, as that is counter to the term "encyclopedic", Also the article has since been moved on from the old snapshot. Any direction on this would be welcome. I am about to post in that subsection. Thanks Mystery Wolff (talk) 09:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

• I actually make it 5. I put the tags in on 8 December. MysteryWolff removed them without fixing the issue (1), and I reverted him to put them back in (2). CFCF removed them on 12 December (3), but I think he would have been unaware of the previous reverts when he did so because they were a way down the page history. I hear what you say but this should not trigger CFCF's 1RR restrictions. The rapidity of improvements to the page since QuackGuru's topic ban should not make it impossible for CFCF to edit without checking hundreds of other edits line by line. CFCF has made genuine attempts to engage with my effort to resolve the contradictions above. AlbinoFerret put them back in (4) and then Doc James removed them again (5). I suggest that they stay out now; let's let the wookie win.  :)—S Marshall T/C 11:01, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• DeltaQuad This is another issue that may not have been brought up or discussed at arbcom. The page still has lots of issues. But tags are removed by medproject editors without the problems being solved, and have been in the past (NPOV tag). Giving answers like "*Sources area allowed to contradict each other." well yes, but not without context that explains why. As I explained in my revert, tags are to inform editors who may look at this page. Removing them without fixing the issue that they were placed to point out is counterproductive. AlbinoFerret 13:03, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

We often simply present the conclusions of sources that disagree with each other. I have added a summary "Reviews for electronic cigarettes as a smoking cessation have come to different conclusions." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:44, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I think simply presenting conclusions is one of the many problems with this page. The page is for the general reader. IMHO just tossing in conclusions one after another is something that will not improve readability or help them understand what they are reading. Its writing like a journal article not an encyclopedia article. AlbinoFerret 14:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• Doc James, I do wish you'd participated in the discussion immediately above this one instead of unilaterally adding that content.—S Marshall T/C 14:52, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Pointing out that there is a contradiction between sources is very important and a step in the right direction. Otherwise the reader is constatly asking "Is it me, or does that not make sense?". Johnbod (talk) 14:57, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Rate of editing to this page

Size of this page at the end of:

• Dec 10 - archiving, but only 7.3k added in the day
• Dec 9 326,291, a bit better!
• Dec 8 315,076 bytes
• Dec 7 287,879
• Dec 6 264,432
• Dec 5 246,068
• Dec 4 220,817
• Dec 3 203,227
• Dec 2 193,312
• Dec 1 188,732
• Nov 30 183,277

-The number of new sections is also accelerating, with slightly over 1 per day. We need to slow things down so people who don't want to spend a large chunk of time daily can follow the page and even contribute. Johnbod (talk) 03:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I think some of the larger days were skewed by new editor postings. AlbinoFerret 14:41, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• Also skewed by my side-by-side comparison way of proposing edits, though. A lot of those postings, by byte-count, was me.—S Marshall T/C 14:54, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Economics section

We have: "In the US, big tobacco has a significant share of the e-cigarette market, and they are the major producers."

- I added the "in the US" as both sources are US-only, and for example the PHE report does not say this for the UK (which I think they would have done, if they knew it to be true). The first source is from CNN, the second from an open-access paper by an MD, who references it to "21. Legacy Tobacco Documents Library. Legacy Tobacco Documents Library. San Francisco, CA: University of California San Francisco Library", which is, let's say, a tad vague. We report elsewhere in the section that Nillson can't track sales of independent manufacturers selling to vape shops, so whereas big baccy's sales of (mostly) cigalikes via mainstream retail are apparently dropping in 2015 (WSJ etc), the situation of the independent sector is less clear. It's questionable whether information to support the second claim exists in the public sphere, though no doubt industry insiders have more info which they will treat as commercially confidential.

At the least we need better sources to support anything we say on this. Johnbod (talk) 16:05, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Im taking a look for sources. This one [16] is ok but there isnt a lot of information, the nice thing is its from 2015. AlbinoFerret 16:23, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, the economics section is another one that needs a lot of work. I suggest:- (1) Move and redirect the current content of Vape shop to Economics of electronic cigarettes; (2) Paste the text currently in Electronic cigarette#Economics into that article; and then (3) Rewrite this section of the proper e-cig article as a couple of concise and intelligible paragraphs.—S Marshall T/C 19:36, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like a great plan. AlbinoFerret 20:07, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Since the Afd proposal for Vape shop, which was pretty similar, has just been heavily defeated, you can't exactly do that. I don't know we have enough material for a proper sub-articles, & I think we need more than a couple of paras here. Johnbod (talk) 04:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:DP and the subsection Deletion of articles if the page is kept "the page is kept and is again subject to normal editing, merging, or redirecting as appropriate." AlbinoFerret 05:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes "as appropriate", which doesn't mean flouting a clear and recent community decision. Johnbod (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Never said or intended to flout a community discussion. I just quoted it was subject to further editing, merger, and redirect. The community consensus is not to delete, not that it must stay in its present form, and nothing is planed to be deleted. But at this point we are no longer discussing deletion but merger. I am sure more discussions will need to happen. AlbinoFerret 18:13, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• I'm disappointed to say this, but I think that the situation is that editors want to keep Quack's forks, stupid though I think that is. We can ask again in five months in the hope that consensus will have changed by then. In the meantime I do suggest we use the forks as containers for the most horribly-written parts of this article, and the obviously missing fork is Economics of electronic cigarettes. We're not proposing to delete the text of vape shop, nor to turn vape shop into a redlink.—S Marshall T/C 08:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

They aren't actually WP:FORKs at all, but regular sub-articles, diffused to keep this one manageable, which I'm surprised you don't support. It doesn't help to use the term, which has a specific meaning here. The work was mostly done by Quack, but as I recall there were discussions here agreeing the changes beforehand. They seem appropriate to me. Most of the detail is already in the sub-articles, as it should be, but if not some can be added there. At the moment I don't see we have enough on Economics of electronic cigarettes for a sub-article. A lot of the most basic information seems to be unavailable. Johnbod (talk) 18:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Where in the articles can I find the summery and link to Vape shop showing where it was broken out? AlbinoFerret 18:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

• Well, Johnbod, my actual view is that a few well-chosen sub-articles would probably be a good idea but the easiest way to get there from here involves a little high explosive. I didn't say so during the deletion discussions because some of my fellow editors have an irritating way of saying "User thinks there should be an article with this title so just keep this one and adapt it" -- so I chose to present the case for completely deleting them.—S Marshall T/C 18:25, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The sources in the Economics section are weak, and about half of the statements in it are outdated, dubious, or misleading. Some others aren’t very informative. If adequate sources don’t exist, material should be deleted. However, to do so aggravates a problem that already exists. The most reliable sources in this area (and Marketing too) are about the involvement of the tobacco industry because the efforts of some prohibitionists to emphasise it and the publicity campaigns of the companies are more likely to be reported in mainstream sources. Currently the role of the many small operations is downplayed in the article. Big tobacco sells mostly first generation devices, and there’s no mention of manufacturers of later generation devices. A reader could get the impression that tobacco companies dominate the market. It’s unclear, or perhaps doubtful, that this is the case. Unfortunately, I don’t have any suggestions for improvement. P Walford (talk) 15:04, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, the financial media are well set up to report on large quoted companies selling to mainstream retailers, but very poorly set up to report on a bunch of rather tiny private businesses selling through the internet, small one-off specialist retailers and corner shops (UK term). Until it was removed this week (see a couple of sections back) our article did indeed flat-out say that "tobacco companies dominate the market". As I say there, I suspect nobody really knows whether this is the case in the US, where big baccy has placed the front line of its attempt to take over the sector - I think it is clear enough that it is not in the UK and Europe. Cigalikes can be treated as a cigarette-like product in terms of marketing and distribution, and use big baccy's existing skills, but later generation devices, with a one-off sale of kit followed by regular sales of e-juice that can come from any manufacturer, are very different. Maybe the car companies should have a go? Johnbod (talk) 15:35, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Interesting sources

I am looking for sources on marketing. In this section I will mention sources not in the article that may be interesting but dont fit the needs above.

• Patterns of Electronic Cigarette Use Among Adults in the United States
• The impact of price and tobacco control policies on the demand for electronic nicotine delivery systems
• Risk Beliefs and Preferences for E-Cigarettes

AlbinoFerret 16:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)