Talk:Havana syndrome

Short description

@Slatersteven "Anomalous health incidents" does not give any more information than the title, and I don't see any problem in my preferred version. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

But this is what they were. Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

And what I wrote is what it is, with the added benefit of disambiguation, a primary purpose for short descriptions. When an average reader searches and sees the short description "Anomalous health incidents", they're not going to know that it was a former name or anything about the syndrome other than the fact that it is related to health (duh). Being a former name is not a criterion for short descriptions, and I don't see why it should be. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Did you read the article, not all the incidents were over seas (for a start). Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Your suggestion is problematic for the reason that families of officials have also claimed symptoms. Also, people in the United States, including at the White House, have claimed symptoms. Rp2006 (talk) 16:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah. Well, wouldn't adding a "mostly" solve that? Aaron Liu (talk) 16:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

New section summarizing explanations that have been speculated?

Kudos for all editors that have worked on this article in the past ... lots of good information & sourcing. However, it appears to be lacking a key section: a summary list of the explanations for Havana Syndrome that have been hypothesized over the years. For comparison, the MH 370 article has the section Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370#Speculated_causes_of_disappearance.

Some speculated/hypothesized explanations for Havana Syndrome (from the article's existing sources) include:

* Stress (of working overseas, under surveillance);  PTSD
* EM attack from hostile adversary (microwaves, etc)
* Crickets
* Toxins or pesticides
* Psychogenic (hysteria, psychosomatic, etc).

Providing such a section would be very useful to readers. The tricky part would be not duplicating all the detailed text already in the other sections (esp the Research/Study section). So maybe the best approach would be to keep the proposed new "speculated/hypothesized explanations" section terse and leave the details (as-is) in other sections.

Thoughts? Noleander (talk) 23:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm starting to add the new section (proposed above). The goal is to keep it terse: just a summary. All pre-existing content & cites int eh article are not changed. The "Criticism of media coverage" section was merged into the new "Speculated causes" section initially. I'm trying to decide if that is best or not. If anyone has any suggestions please post a note here. Noleander (talk) 19:29, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I like it in general. Made a change to one subsection I thought gave the wrong idea. Rp2006 (talk) 18:03, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Also... Not at all sure there SHOULD be a crickets section here, as it is an outlier... No one thought the sound CAUSED the ailments. Gonna try a slight re-org to better handle this issue. Let me know what you think. Rp2006 (talk) 18:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to review the changes and making some additional improvements. I'm not sure I understand how the psychogenic section is now organized though ...it now it looks like there's five various types of psychogenic causes such as financial incentives. that's not quite right... those five subsections are just aspects of the the single psychogenic cause. Noleander (talk) 20:48, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe "non-physical" is better? 22:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC) Rp2006 (talk) 22:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

What do you think of the latest mods to the section (to make header statements prior to the sub-sections)? Rp2006 (talk) 22:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Current sections are still not quite sensible... the way I see it, "Psychogenic" is a single cause. The subsections (media, etc) are simply details about _why_ the Psychogenic cause was not (and is not still?) widely publicized by the CIA & State dept.

I'll make an edit to the section headers & levels (no content or text change) to show what I'm talking about, and you can check it out. Noleander (talk) 23:27, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I made the change to the section depth. I also added a transition sentence so the nature of the four subsections under Psychogenic section is clearer to readers, viz: Commentators have suggested several reasons why the psychogenic hypothesis was not widely embraced in the early years of Havana Syndrome, including political motivations, financial incentives, and media sensationalism. Noleander (talk) 23:34, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Looking good! Rp2006 (talk) 04:02, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

What does financial incentives have to do with psychogenic medical effects? Motives for faking an illness are not related to psychogenic illness. This whole section on psychogenic needs to be redone. If you want a section on people faking illness for personal gain, you need a high quality source, which probably doesn't exist. 2605:59C8:33D2:D310:85BF:3BD4:18B1:81B6 (talk) 03:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The content there seems in line with their citations -- which seem fine as sources to back up the claims, especially the book on the subject. I did not write the financial part, but it seems accurate to me. And regarding your question re. what are the financial incentives: certainly lawyers who have taken on clients suing governments have an incentive to NOT admit their clients' injuries were not from attacks. Rp2006 (talk) 20:12, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Bias on this page

There is clear evidence of bias on this page, towards the idea that psychogenic factors caused this Syndrome, and away from the extensive studies that have demonstrated the plausibility of electromagnetic (pulsed radiofrequency) and acoustic (ultrasound) energy as causes of some cases. The findings of the 2020 NASEM report are misportrayed, and the work of the IC Experts Panel is largely ignored (https://media.salon.com/pdf/22-cv-674%20Final%20Response%20Package.pdf). The many flaws of the 2024 NIH publications in JAMA are also ignored (https://jamanetwork-com.laneproxy.stanford.edu/journals/jama/fullarticle/2816534). Psychosocial factors cannot explain the subset of cases with acute onset audio-vestibular signs and symptoms and strong location-dependence. David657293457056 (talk) 01:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

What reliable WP:MEDRS sources on this are we missing. Your stanford link does not work. Bon courage (talk) 04:56, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

I have no dog in this fight, and I'm coming to this article fresh (a week ago). I've read thru summaries of nearly all the sources, and I think they are all fairly represented in this article. In particular, all sources that suggest EM/Sound attacks are included in the article, in several places ("Location" section; "Causes" section; and "Chronology of Studies" section).

The impression I get from reading the sources is that the early studies (2017 to 2022) were a bit limited; but as the years have gone by, larger and more thorough (and more dispassionate) studies have shown no evidence of hostile powers attacks. In particular: the sources say there is no known EM/sonic attack that could ONLY produce H.S. symptoms. In my assessment, the article, as it stands to day, is not biased.

If you suggest that EM/Sonic should be more prominently mentioned in the article, it would be best to produce a WP:MEDRS source from after mid 2022 that endorses EM/Sonic causes (and is not from the Miami or UPenn Drs that have conflicts of interest). Noleander (talk) 14:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

In any case, this phrase seems to be copy-pasted multiple times: "Some commentators have suggested that the psychogenic hypothesis was downplayed". Some cleanup is needed here. Han-Kwang (t) 09:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Pretty much all of the parts discussing what commentators have said should probably go. Commentators are generally not reliable sources. Any meaningful contribution to the attempts to explain HS should be better cited, and better supported. 2605:59C8:33D2:D310:85BF:3BD4:18B1:81B6 (talk) 01:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

On most issues, you can find commentators saying just about anything. 2605:59C8:33D2:D310:85BF:3BD4:18B1:81B6 (talk) 01:48, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

And often commentators are politically motivated. 2605:59C8:33D2:D310:85BF:3BD4:18B1:81B6 (talk) 01:49, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Psychosocial factors can do a lot of things. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 18:53, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Microwave transmission

Microwave transmission is commonly used in civilian communications. Wave interference from two or more transmitters, or just reflections from buildings, can give rise to large changes in intensity over small areas. There is also this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26556835/92.24.225.104 which mentions something similar in the 1970s. (talk) 92.24.225.104 (talk) 14:39, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and all that information about EM radiation was considered by the various studies that focused on H.S. And the results of those H.S. studies are already mentioned in this article. Noleander (talk) 14:45, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Adding the new investigative report?

I am not an editor, nor do I have any experience editing or adding articles. Nevertheless, this article seems pertinent to this case, it may even have cracked it wide open.

Unraveling Havana Syndrome: New evidence links the GRU's assassination Unit 29155 to mysterious attacks on Americans, at home and abroad (theins.press)

If anyone wants to pick it up, please be my guest. If not, in a few days, I might add this somewhere, after I read some rules and howto on editing. Thanks P.s: I think 60 minutes also has a documentary, recently released, about this ValmirM1986 (talk) 01:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

This is now widely reported:

https://theins.ru/en/politics/270425

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNRpw6DWN0M

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/havana-syndrome-culprit-investigation-new-evidence-60-minutes-transcript/

https://www.axios.com/2024/04/01/havana-syndrome-evidence-investigation-russia-60-minutes FailedMusician (talk) 01:43, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a WP:MEDRS article. None of these are WP:MEDRS-quality sources. Loki (talk) 05:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't really think so. Clearly not all of the material in this article is biomedical information about the supposed disease, and discussions about Russia's GRU Unit 29155 would be included in that. Endwise (talk) 05:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Is it really a WP:MEDRS article though? Or is it an espionage article? — Red XIV ^(talk) 06:31, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree. An entire article cannot be “MEDRS”. MEDRS only relates to WP:BMI. Other pieces of information such as the “espionage” part of the story are not covered by MEDRS and regular sourcing is sufficient. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 09:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Object to inclusion. This is just weak newsy junk. Would need some decent/respectable WP:SECONDARY coverage to be due, especially given the fringe/science aspect to this stuff. Bon courage (talk) 09:22, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The passage you keep reverting includes several reliable sources (all present in WP:RSP)

Here is one more.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68706317.amp

your opinion does not give you the right to revert all other editors as you please.

I’ll let you self revert @Bon courage. Then we can add the BBC source if you need more. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 09:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Is CBS not a respectable perennial source? What's fringe about it? — THORNFIELD HALL ^(Talk) 09:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Reliability is not the issues, NPOV is. What makes this stuff due? Show me some WP:SECONDARY coverage, not just primary reportage. Bon courage (talk) 10:55, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is a MEDRS article as it talks about medical conditions. Slatersteven (talk) 10:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

And a WP:FRINGE one too. When RS says this "syndrome" probably doesn't exist we really should not be giving rolling coverage to whatever latest credulous clickbait silliness is in the news. It's like reporting Bigfoot sightings. Wikipedia needs to be a bit better than that. Bon courage (talk) 11:07, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Ray Cats don't exist and yet I was greeted with them on the DYK section when I opened up the homepage. Are they or Patterson-Gimlin film not more fringe than the credible Havana information I added? — THORNFIELD HALL ^(Talk) 03:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Its clear that Ray Cats aren't real in the article and in the DYK (which was an april fools DYK) LegalSmeagolian (talk) 18:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The investigation in question is not WP:MEDRS. ChaseK (talk) 16:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose inclusion of this 60 minutes information. Very sensational, and not a great source. In light of the history of the syndrome (where there's lots of concrete medical studies) this sort of speculative ramblings by a for-profit media organization doesn't belong in the article. Noleander (talk) 11:13, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The first mention of this joint investigation on the page used The Insider as the source (for some reason it was completely rewritten and removed by @Thornfield Hall), which is known for its investigations of various Russian government's operations (see Poisoning of Alexei Navalny as the prime example). If that is still not sufficient (the presence of the source in WP:RSP being taken as one and only mark of credibility for a media outlet), a link to Der Spiegel can be used – although I have no subscription to it, so I can't check what is written inside. TinyClayMan (talk) 11:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Err, that's the piece the opens "He was tall, certainly taller than Joy’s neighbors ...". Can we have some serious suggestions for sources please? Bon courage (talk) 11:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The Insider has worked with Bellingcat, which has been cited as valuable by the United States Intelligence Community. You are an absolute nobody to call it 'unserious', and you had no problem with absolutely worthless sources like 'GeopoliticalEconomy'. Running dog59 (talk) 22:55, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

It was because we both submitted our edits simultaneously causing that weird edit conflict prompt, and I went with the more detailed of the two. — THORNFIELD HALL ^(Talk) 22:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed sensational. However, given that it is speculation as an attack by hostile power that appears to be gathering widespread attention and has also garnered some official political response, is that worthy of some mention in the wiki article?

The passage already in the article: "However, the most recent and detailed studies, published in 2023 and 2024, have not found any evidence of such hostile attacks, and have not discovered any electromagnetic energy that could produce symptoms consistent with symptoms of Havana syndrome." still stands to balance the claims from this latest investigation out well, I think. Edittlealittle (talk) 11:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

It would be worth coverage if some high-quality source takes a overview and analyses the coverage in a WP:FRIND manner. But mostly what we have is WP:NEWSPRIMARY. Let's wait; in a few months or year some decent sourcing may emerge, Bon courage (talk) 11:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Support including this. It's significant enough of a development that both the Director of National Intelligence and the Russian Government have responded. Both of these facts have been reported by WP:RELIABLE. Wikipedia need not describe these the claims as true or false, only quote the relevant claims and responses. ChaseK (talk) 16:10, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Should this website be added to the external links section from the report? Addressing Anomalous Health Incidents (AHIs) | Go Forward with Advanced Echelon LLC Indexcard88 (talk) 17:55, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Support covering this investigation in the article. Wikipedia should be based on WP:RELIABLE sources. Nothing else. This investigation was conducted by several high profile investigative journalists (such as Christo Grozev from Bellingcat) who are specialised in Russian investigations. It has been widely reported by WP:SECONDARY sources of the highest quality (all in the WP:RSP perennial list):

• [1] Russian military intelligence unit may be linked to 'Havana syndrome', Insider reports - Reuters
• [2] Havana syndrome: Report links mystery illness to Russian intelligence unit - BBC
• [3] ‘Havana syndrome’ linked to Russian unit, media investigation suggests - The Guardian
• [4] Havana Syndrome investigation links Russia to mysterious brain injuries - The Telegraph
• [5] Havana Syndrome linked to Russian military agency GRU, investigation indicates - Politico
• etc. etc.

It is so significant that the Russian Government has officially responded:

• [6] "Kremlin dismisses report Russia behind 'Havana Syndrome'" Reuters

This is an extremely significant development. Not including this in the article and pretending it never happened makes our coverage of the topic woefully incomplete. Obviously no conclusive statement and no biomedical claim should be made in accordance with WP:MEDRS. We should just say that this investigation exists and what their conclusion is ("Russian involvement is likely"). {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 15:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

It's just news churn. Where are the decent WP:SECONDARY sources you claim exist? Bon courage (talk) 16:02, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

All the sources linked above are WP:SECONDARY and of high quality being all WP:RSP outlets. The WP:PRIMARY sources here are CBS, The Insider (= Christo Grozev) and Der Spiegel who also are of high quality. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 16:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Their just re-reporting the news, with none of the in-depth analysis, expertise, commentary and synthesis that characterize secondary sources. WP:NEWSPRIMARY in other words.

More generally, it's evident this article has descended again into being a fringe of FRINGE POV, with a tonne of primary sourcing spliced together by editors here. I have raised a query at WP:FT/N and put some tags in. Let's see if some heavy cutting can get this article back to some encyclopedic and due. Bon courage (talk) 16:25, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

First of all I think you might be interpreting WP:NEWSPRIMARY incorrectly. Those sources are all secondary in this context. Secondarily, those reliable outlets do not publish anything without "in-depth analysis, expertise, commentary and synthesis". That is what serious reliable outlets such as the BBC, The Guardian, Reuters etc. do before publishing an article and within their coverage. And that's what Wikipedia is built on. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 16:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and that "analysis" is "According to", 3 media outlets, dismissed by Russia and which the US intelligence community has said is unlikely. In essence "this story exists, we can't verot any of it". Slatersteven (talk) 16:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

All those sources believe the report to be credible enough to report on it. That is significant. And even the Kremlin has considered it substantial enough to immediately reply to it officially. That is highly significant. Also: neither Russia nor the US intelligence community are WP:INDEPENDENT sources on this topic. So we should be extremely careful in blindly following their statements. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 16:52, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

No, they think its newsworthy enough, why is wp:or. Slatersteven (talk) 16:57, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

At this point the page history looks like an edit war between @Bon courage and everyone else, because some sources are not sources enough. While I agree that all those Guardian, Politico, Reuters and the like's retellings of the investigation are on the same level of "sourceness" as the investigation itself (published originally in 60 Minutes, The Insider and Der Spiegel), I disagree that they are primary sources. In the context of the article (Havana syndrome) they are all secondary, because they do not make an initial report on the event – they are an aftermath analysis and an investigation of it. TinyClayMan (talk) 17:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Secondary sources on Wikipedia are described in WP:SECONDARY. They are not not secondary because of editor say-so. We would really need some authoritative, quality overview of this. Not just news churn. Bon courage (talk) 17:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

What you're asking for is beyond what the policy requires. We would need an "authoritative, quality overview" to assert that the claims are true or false. We do not need such a source to simply quote the claim, evidence, and responses by the Director of National Intelligence and Russian Government. ChaseK (talk) 19:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Lets look at this another way, If Havana Syndrome is real, and IF RS say it is real...this (to me) is the heart of this issue, for this report to be not wp:undue Havana Syndrome has to be accept as a single, identifiable medical complaint. As (as far as I know) this is not the case, and it has not been proven to be real, thus accusing anyone of it is saying it is real by the back door, which is why I say this fails, MEDERS, as these are not medical sources making (in effect) an indirect medical diagnosis (as if it is not real, buy definition Russia did not do it). Slatersteven (talk) 17:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support Surprised this is being debated. Wikipedia doesn’t decide what is important or true, we merely report on what reliable sources state. Multiple reliable sources have reported on this issue. To not include their commentary is itself biased. BootsED (talk) 17:38, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, agree, but let's not sensationalize it to read as if the 60 Minutes report is conclusive proof and now represents the mainstream POV on the topic. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:21, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Certainly... no one was arguing for that. ChaseK (talk) 18:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

So what is the suggested text? Slatersteven (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support inclusion. Suggested text:

In April 2024, 60 Minutes, Der Spiegel and The Insider published a joint investigation which alleges that the Russian GRU Unit 29155 is connected to cases of Havana syndrome. Among the core findings were that senior members of the unit received awards and political promotions for work related to the development of "non-lethal acoustic weapons"; and that members of the unit have been geolocated to places around the world just before or at the time of reported incidents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GreenC (talk • contribs)

Highly conditional weak support I think it is likely due mentioning a claim was made. But I think any claims must be clearly identified as to source, treated as what they are: claims made by a media company, not medical consensus and, this is the most critical part *must not exceed due coverage* - this is already more WP:RECENTISM than I am comfortable with for one rather unconvincing claim. Please remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claim that Russia created some invisible energy weapon that seems to defy how rf frequencies affect bodied is most certainly extraordinary - as such it is imperative we do not treat these claims as definitive or even especially evidentiary.Simonm223 (talk) 00:45, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The hyperbole isn't necessary. There is nothing extraordinary about invisible EM radiation, and experts such as James Lin, have claimed that rf frequencies could produce the effects that the victims experienced.

Assuming reported accounts are reli-

able, the microwave auditory effect

provides a scientific explanation for the

Havana Syndrome [4], [5]. Pulsed mi-

crowaves can create an acoustic wave

inside the head [6], [7], [14]. It is plausible

that the loud buzzing, burst of sound,

or pressure waves could have been co-

vertly delivered using a beam of high-

power pulsed microwave radiation rather

than blasting the subjects with conven-

tional sonic sources. Microwave hearing

doesn’t go through the ear; it goes di-

rectly from the brain tissue to the cochlea.

Absorption of short pulses of microwave

energy by brain tissues creates a rapid

expansion of brain matter and launches

an acoustic wave of pressure (sound

wave) that travels inside the head to

the inner ear cochlea [7], [14]. The short

high-power microwave pulses do not

generate noticeable amounts of heat in

the brain tissues."

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=9557212

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect 2605:59C8:33D2:D310:85BF:3BD4:18B1:81B6 (talk) 03:03, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

... "The U.S. National Academies of Sciences,

Engineering, and Medicine released its

report [8] examining the plausible causes

of the described illnesses and makes the

point that “among the mechanisms the

study committee considered, the most

plausible mechanism to explain these

cases, especially in individuals with dis-

tinct early symptoms, appears to be di-

rected, pulsed RF (microwave) energy.”

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=9557212 2605:59C8:33D2:D310:85BF:3BD4:18B1:81B6 (talk) 03:21, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

"As early as 2018, some scientists, including physicist Peter Zimmerman, bioengineers Kenneth R. Foster, and Andrei G. Pakhomov, and UCLA neurologist Robert Baloh, said that the microwave hypothesis was implausible; Baloh called the National Academies conclusion "science fiction".[114][115][116]" Simonm223 (talk) 10:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The source above by Special:Contributions/2605:59C8:33D2:D310:85BF:3BD4:18B1:81B6 is more up to date (Nov, 2021), published by the IEEE and written by Professor Emeritus James C. Lin at the University of Illinois Chicago and Life Fellow at the IEEE [7] {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 10:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

When someone is called "professor" without a field, always google what they are professing in, because it is highly likely that the field is omitted because they are actually not qualified for the statements they are making. And indeed: Lin is an electrical engineer and not qualified for medical subjects. The physicist-bioengineer-neurologist team is preferable. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:20, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Did you read his bio before writing this? He is "Head for the Bioengineering Department" at the University of Illinois. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/author/37278769800 His research is in "Biomedical instrumentation", "Electromagnetic Engineering for Biology and Medicine" and "Bioelectromagnetics". https://ece.uic.edu/profiles/james-lin-phd/ So he is precisely a "physicist-bioengineer-neurologist" and extremely qualified to comment on this subject. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 11:31, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Your portrayal is factually incorrect and biased. It's not your role to decide what scientific assessments are preferable and twist the narrative towards your preference. This is an encyclopedia. 2605:59C8:33D2:D310:64B8:2468:2C84:3EC0 (talk) 19:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Even if we accept this, it is not a large enough part of the article to go in the lede and is not significant enough to be mentioned more than once. Slatersteven (talk) 11:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

"If we accept this"? There is overwhelming support. We clearly have consensus to include this in the article. If you oppose it write a full oppose comment and lets see if others agree and the consensus changes but please stop reverting the article as you did here, here and here. Multiple editors have already inserted and edited that text and it is extremely basic and factual. I will restore the mention in the body but not in the lead for the moment. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 11:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion is not equivalent to endorsement. Please keep in mind I support including mention of this report. I don't support undue mention and I don't support treating it as anything more than a claim or accusation. The evidence offered in that document included things like the presence of a member of that espionage unit in a locale seven years prior to the first reported incident. The entire report is highly circumstantial. The question of how we weigh Lin's academic opinion compared to others is a separate matter that should be governed per WP:MEDRS Simonm223 (talk) 11:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

You mean seven years prior to what was previously the first reported incident, as they now report a previously unreported incident. Machinarium (talk) 12:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

It's indeed not up to us to decide what is correct or not, so let's just lay out all reported evidence and let readers decide for themselves. No need to present anything as conclusive. I personally think this article right now relies too heavily on evidence of absence, even though it is well-documented that medical conditions such as post-concussive syndrome can hardly be diagnosed with modern brain scans. The new findings suggest there is a pattern of Russian secret service presence in some of the reported incident locations, and that all of those that suffered were U.S. government workers who worked on Russian dossiers / members of their household. Russian / Soviet secret services have previously been implicated in innovative poisonings such as with nerve agents, cyanide gas, and polonium. Yet, what kind of weapon could cause 'anomalous health incidents' is undetermined. It would anyway not be something revolutionary as such weapon would be less destructive than poison or a handgun. Machinarium (talk) 12:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Meanwhile, responding to the new reports, the Pentagon has confirmed that there was another 'anomalous health incident' at the 2023 NATO summit. Machinarium (talk) 12:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not actually to us to lay out all reported evidence rather it is up to us to report what is WP:DUE about an issue to ensure a reliably sourced and neutral article. I would also caution you that some of your comments about other, non-Havana Syndrome, things that may have been done by either Russia or the Soviet Union and the problems with diagnosis of other, non Havana Syndrome, conditions borders on WP:NOTFORUM. Simonm223 (talk) 12:09, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree with @Simonm223. There is an ongoing debate at all levels on this topic (scientific/diplomatic/intelligence). There are some prevailing theories but nothing is settled yet. We must be very cautious and precise in saying who claims what exactly and with due WP:WEIGHT. Nothing seems definitive at the moment. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:12, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

That does not appear to be Simonm223's stance when he's simply deleting any mention of the new findings. Machinarium (talk) 12:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Please review the edit log. I have not deleted any "new findings" - the only thing I deleted was a long section of unsourced conspiracy theory regarding covert replacement of embassy staff. I also adjusted some wording to be more neutral. In general I would prefer, if at all possible, to have a light touch here. However I do think there is an evident scientific consensus, based on what is known about the interaction between the human body and RF frequency radiation, that microwave weapons are highly unlikely. Treating it otherwise would require extraordinary evidence governed by WP:MEDRS. Simonm223 (talk) 12:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

You are focusing on one possible hypothesis on what kind of weapon it could have been even though nobody is conclusive about that. The new documents also mentions it could have been ultrasound for example. This remains a mystery even for them. Machinarium (talk) 12:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

This remains a mystery even to them, is precisely why we should cleave to WP:MEDRS - journalists can propose all kinds of wild suggestions and be mystified by them. We should stick to neurologists, physicists, epidemiologists and the like. Simonm223 (talk) 12:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not just a medical encyclopedia. If there are widely reported security service operations going on that remain part mystery it can still be covered. I also suggest you read about the actual new evidence[8] because it goes way further than just 'wild suggestions'. Machinarium (talk)

I did, in fact, read it before I posted a single thing on this page. I found it highly circumstantial, derived from weak correlation, and of low evidentiary value. Wherever possible an encyclopedia should prefer academic sources over media sources. Simonm223 (talk) 12:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Circumstantial evidence can still be evidence. And there's also a proposed clear pattern of the victims all working on Russian dossiers. There are no academic sources on Russian secret service operations, just on attempts to find traces of brain damage which was already known to be a very difficult task when it comes to concussion-like damage. I think we should be similarly careful not to dismiss a murder when a body hasn't been found and no autopsy could be conducted, for example. Machinarium (talk) 12:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree. The science (in RS) is pretty settled. That various politicians & pundits are getting excited is not very important. It would be like saying "ooh, politicians have lots of views on climate change; we must respectfully record them!" Bon courage (talk) 12:19, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Science isn't settled here, and the new findings are not by politicians. Machinarium (talk) 12:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide a source for the claim that "microwave weapons are highly unlikely" and that it is settled scientific consensus? The sources above seem to directly contradict that claim and come from authoritative sources (e.g. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9759429) {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:23, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Microwave weapons are an area of active research in the field of directed energy weapons (see for example this U.S. Navy page DIRECTED ENERGY WEAPONS: HIGH POWER MICROWAVES) so I'm not sure what "settled science" we are referring to here. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:28, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The question is not whether microwave weapons exist but whether they operate in a way consistent with the reported symptoms of Havana Syndrome. Like, if somebody said, "he was shot with a gun and that's why he died of cancer" I'd be suspicious of the claim that a gunshot caused cancer. That doesn't mean guns don't exist. Simonm223 (talk) 12:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Sure but it definitely doesn't appear to be settled science that Havana Syndrome like symptoms are confirmed not to be related to microwave weapons. Or do you have a sufficiently high level source claiming that and are able to prove that it is "settled science"? The source I linked above explicitly states the contrary The results presented in Tables 1 and 2 showed that high-power microwave pulse exposure can generate substantial acoustic pressures in the brain that may not only produce sound sensations but also have implications for neuropathological consequences such as traumatic brain injury. and concludes: Assuming the reported symptoms and accounts are consistent, the microwave auditory effect provides a scientific explanation for Havana Syndrome. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9759429 {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

The issue is that, per many JAMA and CDC sources, there was no evidence of traumatic brain injury. Simonm223 (talk) 12:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

There is also no evidence that these people suffered instead from psychogenic illness, mass hysteria, etc.; conditions that won't show up on modern brain scans either.Machinarium (talk) 13:29, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a different point though. I don't believe anyone has claimed that it is impossible for microwave weapons to cause injuries and similar symptoms as those described. The fact that some studies (e.g. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2816533) have not been able to find statistically significant symptoms is another issue. And that is not definitive proof of anything and not settled science per WP:MEDRS (Case selection bias is the most obvious potential red flag for those studies). Those studies are WP:PRIMARY and the research is still ongoing. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 13:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

All the more reason to be careful not to give too much credence to low-quality sources such as journalistic reports built upon speculation and coincidence. Simonm223 (talk) 13:10, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

That it's just 'coincidence' is just your opinion, others see clear patterns and a motive. Machinarium (talk) 13:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes we need to be very careful about what we say and not say. If anything we should remove most medical claims from this page (e.g. the JAMA studies) as they are not WP:MEDRS sources but based on WP:PRIMARY exploratory studies. Everything is still being researched here. No definitive medical claims can be made until we have WP:MEDRS sources which we currently do not have (Or do we?). On the contrary: the 60 minutes report as far as it relates to non biomedical claims WP:BMI can and should be included. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 15:45, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, and it is troubling how these scientific studies are being misrepresented by editors seeking to use Wikipedia to promote their favorite theory.

The scientific results should be presented as is, without third party conclusions by non-experts inserted. The results should be presented including both what the findings were and what the limitations of the study were. And the research articles themselves should be cited rather than news articles that also misrepresented the results and put a spin on them. 2605:59C8:33D2:D310:64B8:2468:2C84:3EC0 (talk) 19:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Please read wp:lede it is a summery of important parts of OUR article, one line is not important (nor is one paragraph). Also even if everyone agree that WE should say this, they have not all agreed to how we should say it (and the only suggested text is not the one that was added), nor where it was placed (after all this is only a media report, so at best we would have one line, there and nowhere else. So yes we clearly need an RFC, laying out the text that the proposer wants to add. Slatersteven (talk) 13:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• I am concerned by an increasing edit war on this page (see page edit history) A reminder, Wikipedia does not decide what is true or false. Wikipedia does not decide what is important or not important. Wikipedia merely reports on what reliable sources on a topic claim. Multiple reliable sources have brought up this report. It doesn’t matter if one disagrees with it. Such information must be added to the page else this is a clear violation and example of editorial bias. This is not a MEDRS article and this claim should not be used to remove content one personally disagrees with. Claims should always state who made the claim, especially for a topic like this one where the facts are classified or unknown. BootsED (talk) 15:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment on content not users, please. Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. Removed specific mention of users in my above post. BootsED (talk) 15:20, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Again I'd also ask you to please review the edit summary of the page. I have not, in fact, engaged in edit warring. In fact the only piece I've put more than one revert on I did so by reverting myself in light of talk-page discussion. Please be more careful not just with specific names but with characterization of edits. My concern on the article talk page for WP:DUE, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:RECENTISM, WP:FRINGE and WP:MEDRS has been linked to very careful editing of the source and general recommendations of caution. Simonm223 (talk) 15:30, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

No offense intended. I should not have named specific names. However, after looking at the edit history of this page, the outlines of a general edit war are appearing. I do see a potential argument to be made for WP:RECENTISM and WP:NOTNEWS. However, I do believe that this is WP:DUE through the abundance of RS that cover this story. I do not believe WP:FRINGE applies here, and WP:MEDRS definitely does not apply here as described in much better detail in prior posts. BootsED (talk) 15:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Most of the sources are merely expressing that the original claim was made. I've never opposed a mention of the report. I've simply been concerned that it doesn't get bloated beyond, "journalists made claims." Simonm223 (talk) 15:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I definitely agree with you there. There should simply be one or two mentions of this report in the relevant locations within this page that start with, “A March 2024 report by…” followed by “claimed that…”. BootsED (talk) 15:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't actually have any objection to that. Simonm223 (talk) 15:58, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

We clearly have consensus on this. The article currently includes a similar sentence: "In March 2024, a joint investigation by 60 Minutes, The Insider and Der Spiegel claimed that the Russians had perpetrated the attacks through state agency GRU Unit 29155 using directed energy weapons." I would close this discussion at this point and let everyone edit the article normally. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 18:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

References

Odd sentence in summar

Whenever I red a sentence like this it is always a tell - this article is biased to convince people no foreign actor is involved.

“Some studies indicated that foreign actors were not responsible for most cases.”

“Numerous studies and investigations have been unable to determine a cause” would be a much more descriptive sentence. Allaheadfull (talk) 12:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Pesticides

I read the Dalhousie study that proposed pesticides as a cause. I'm curious why that was removed per WP:OR - I reverted but am open to discussion if there's subsequent information I'm not privy to. Simonm223 (talk) 13:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry which study? We would need WP:MEDRS for any suggestion of causal health effects of a particular type, and also so far as I can see none of these sources support the "Some scientists have suggested ..." idea, which is OR. And why add scribd.com sources to Wikipedia? Bon courage (talk) 13:10, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Geez I didn't see the URL. I'll see if I can dig up the dal study again. Will self-revert in the meantime. Simonm223 (talk) 13:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I found this URL via Archive.org - it looks like the original was pulled down subsequent to me reading it.

[9] Simonm223 (talk) 15:11, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:MEDRS

Half of this article is a violation of WP:MEDRS and should be deleted as no appropriate sources exist yet given the early research on this topic. We cannot make any biomedical claims WP:BMI by sourcing it to newspapers and WP:PRIMARY sources/studies.

For example this reversion by @Simonm223 reintroduces some of those claims. All of the sources in those paragraphs are not WP:MEDRS compliant:

• "In March 2024, the National Institutes of Health published two medical studies evaluating people reporting Havana syndrome symptoms, and found no evidence of brain injury, irregular blood biomarkers, or vocational impairment." this is WP:BMI and Source 1 and Source 2 are newspapers reporting on WP:PRIMARY studies
• "But according to David Relman, these findings do not exclude that a weapon could have injured the government workers, as "the most sophisticated brain scans can miss a subtle brain injury, especially if the brain has had time to heal"." this is WP:BMI and Source 1 is a newspaper reporting on a WP:PRIMARY source Source 2

What should we do? Thoughts? {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 19:33, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Reintroduced is a slightly pointed way of saying I followed WP:BRD - I understand primary sources aren't ideal but they're a heck of a lot better than unscientific journalistic speculation and spooky stories about magic guns that don't leave any wounds. Simonm223 (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Seconded. Especially when some users wish to interpret them in a way contrary to their findings. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 19:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I would also ask whether review articles exist - because without those we may want to consider taking this to AfD as impossible to make neutral. Without the biomedical end this becomes a repository of conspiracy theories. Simonm223 (talk) 19:45, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

IMHO, The major issue here is SHOULD this article fall under MEDRS rules? Making that determination assumes the symptoms are physical and caused by weapon attacks, as opposed to possibly being the reframing of (real and imaginary) illness caused by other factors, as the MPI hypothesis asserts. As the US gov't investigating agencies have found no evidence of the former, including the report issued by the gov'ts NIH report, I see no reason to make the MEDRS assumption here. Rp2006 (talk) 19:56, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Whatever standard we apply to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_chemical_sensitivity should apply here. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 20:02, 2 April 2024 (UTC)