Talk:Joe Biden

Current consensus

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01. Mention that Biden is the oldest president in lead. (Feb 2021)

02. Deleted non-consensus

No consensus on section about gaffes. (March 2021 - though closer said that proposer should file a new RfC with a clearer question).

03. The infobox is shortened. (Feb 2021)

04. The official 2021 White House portrait should be used as the lead image. (Jan 2021, March 2021)

05. The infobox caption is "Official portrait, 2021". (April 2021)

06. In the lead sentence, use "who is" as opposed to "serving as" when referring to Biden as the president. (July 2021)

07. In the lead sentence, use "46th and current" as opposed to just "46th" when referring to Biden as the president. (July 2021)

Mishandling of classified documents and poor memory

Biden has mishandled classified documents, but will not be prosecuted due to his poor memory. This should be added to the article.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/rcna96666

Mn06hithere227 (talk) 02:44, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

A partisan holdover from Trump's DoJ taking potshots because he couldn't find anything actionable is not news. Zaathras (talk) 03:01, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Please wait until all of this is documented in reliable sources. And be cognizant that this is a WP:BLP and refrain from making statements like: but will not be prosecuted due to his poor memory. when that is clearly not the actual rationale. WP:NODEADLINE O3000, Ret. (talk) 03:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Goldwater rules applies and this is bordering accusing him of dementia, do not add this or at least add a notice mentioning how this has been accused of partianship and the goldwater rule not being respected NotQualified (talk) 12:25, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

maybe i am mistaken however, i am also aware youre allowed to at least say someone is showing signs of a condition (as the 100+ medically trained psychologists have said trump is showing clear signs of rapid degenerating dementia) (not related at all to biden so dont add it) NotQualified (talk) 12:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Let the dust settle & don't rely on an individual's opinion in this matter, unless they're a neurologist. AFAIK, section 4 of the 25th amendment, isn't being considered for invocation. GoodDay (talk) 03:15, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

"could portray himself as an "elderly man with a poor memory"", so in fact not a clear cut as implied. Slatersteven (talk) 10:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm just seeing this now... I made an edit [1] over at the Public image of Joe Biden article. Perhaps due for here too. SmolBrane (talk) 17:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

It definitely seems notable now, at least briefly.

• New York Times states: Special Counsel Report Is Legal Exoneration but Political Nightmare for Biden.
• The Washington Post: Special counsel report paints scathing picture of Biden’s memory
• Axios: Special counsel details on Biden's memory lapses shock Congress
• Politico: Playbook: A day Biden world wishes it could forget

Definitely deserves mention. KlayCax (talk) 18:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Additional sources are appreciated. Whether this goes under 'public image' or the current presidency should be discussed. And whether it warrants its own subsection. We also need to integrate against the current content which states

During his presidency, several Republicans have criticized Biden's publicized gaffes as related to cognitive health issues due to his age, which Biden has repeatedly denied.

This has been quick+dirty editing on my part but I didn't see much about this being a partisan matter. SmolBrane (talk) 18:47, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for those additional sources. Mn06hithere227 (talk) 19:31, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Lets be clear the claim is "he could portray himself as an "elderly man with a poor memory"", not that that he is. If this is included we have to be accurate. Slatersteven (talk) 19:00, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

He also portrayed Biden has having poor memory.

• Page 9: “Mr. Biden’s memory was significantly limited, both during his recorded interviews with the ghostwriter in 2017, and in his interview with our office in 2023.”
• Page 208: “Mr. Biden’s memory also appeared to have significant limitations … Mr. Biden’s recorded conversations with [ghostwriter Mark] Zwonitzer from 2017 are often painfully slow, with Mr. Biden struggling to remember events and straining at times to read and relay his own notebook entries. In his interview with our office, Mr. Biden’s memory was worse. He did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended (‘if it was 2013 — when did I stop being Vice President?’), and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term began (‘in 2009, am I still Vice President?’).”
• Page 247: “For these jurors, Mr. Biden’s apparent lapses and failures in February and April will likely appear consistent with the diminished faculties and faulty memory he showed in Zwonitzer’s interview recordings and in our interview of him.”

(From link above.) KlayCax (talk) 19:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

We definitely need to include something about the Hur report. However, Hur concluded that he was "a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with poor memory." is not that. Hur does not have the medical qualifications to be commenting on Biden's memory. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I was about to ask where he got his medical degree. This is all quite odd. In such depositions, many people say "I don't recall" or other such in response to large numbers of questions without any concluding suggestion of poor memory. More time may present a clearer picture. An encyclopedia has an advantage over the press. The press are concerned over competition and must print immediately. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

We could say (assuming we agree its not undue) that "hur says that Biden had a poor memory". But the quoted lines do not line up with "an elderly man with a poor memory". Slatersteven (talk) 19:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Isn't this up to our secondary sources to determine for us? Do we have reliable sources saying that Hur or the report are unqualified for the assessment? It would appear DUEness outweighs a procedural objection on medical reliability here. SmolBrane (talk) 20:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

When multiple psychiatrists warned of a previous president's mental state, we questioned their qualifications, even though they were psychiatrists, due to the fact they hadn't interviewed him. And over the Goldwater Rule. Anyhow, we will follow RS once they have fully digested the report. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:29, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

If we were discussing Alzheimer's or dementia I would find this more persuasive. I'm not convinced 'memory problems' constitute a medical diagnosis. Will wait for further editors. SmolBrane (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Google memory problems and you get a slew of medical sites. Besides, it was linked to Biden's age, by a person with no medical qualifications. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

if you want to be clear the report states “Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury, AS HE DID DURING OUR INTERVIEW OF HIM, as a sympathetic, well meaning, elderly man with a poor memory”. The decision to not add the special counsel’s reasoning for not charging Joe Biden is laughable. I especially love that that he was found guilty by a Trump appointed holdover (not true), as if that validates Biden not being charged, but when it comes to explaining why he wasn’t charged it’s because it’s a vindictive Trump appointed holdover. You want to have it both ways. WhowinsIwins (talk) 05:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I find it peculiar that Hur includes speculation as to what Biden's "likely" defense might be, as a vehicle to include "a sympathetic, well meaning, elderly man with a poor memory." Hur was not a Trump holdover, but he is a Republican whom Trump appointed as a US attorney in 2018 and he resigned when Biden took office. Hur's inclusion of the "poor memory" content has echoes of when James Comey, a lifelong Republican at the time, announced in 2016 he would not recommend charges against Hillary, but then immediately cast aspersions upon her, which violated longstanding DOJ policy to avoid tarnishing the reputations of people who have not been indicted. If you can't indict 'em, smear 'em, especially when they're a presidential candidate against the leader of your party. soibangla (talk) 06:16, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like your assessment. We don’t rely on that here. Nice theory. Helpingtoclarify (talk) 02:46, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Poor memory: should we conclude that Ivanka Trump is becoming senile because she answered "I don't recall", "I don't know", and "I don't remember" numerous times when she was questioned as a witness in the civil fraud lawsuit against her father? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Any RS sources saying she has memory issues? There are DOZENS on Biden. Helpingtoclarify (talk) 02:44, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Biden confused the president of Egypt, with the president of Mexico. He also mentioned Mitterand as the current French president. I'm not suggesting any of these verbal mistakes be included? But it's becoming more difficult to exclude. GoodDay (talk) 19:19, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Even CNN is saying how the White House and Biden's allies are in panic mode following the release of documents mentioning Biden's mental health. I think it is worth mentioning the release of the documents in the article.

• Biden’s allies can’t agree on how to combat questions about his age and memory
• Biden tries to lay to rest age concerns, but may have exacerbated them And1987 (talk) 21:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

We can include mention of the report, but we aren't going to use news media's sensationalization of it. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:06, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Wow! That's a lot of responses. I would like to thank all of you for offering your opinions on whether or not this should be included. Also thank you for posting links to other sources. I will go along with whatever the talk page consensus ends up being. I think it's a great idea that some of you said this needs more time. Again, thank you for your comments Mn06hithere227 (talk) 19:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

What is this nonsense? Stop trying to suppress info and put this into the article please --FMSky (talk) 20:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

No one is trying to suppress the subject. Just trying to determine what the addition will look like. WP:AGF O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:08, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. We have no deadline as we strive to get it right the first time. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:19, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia is not censored (WP:NOTCENSORED) so please stop claiming that it is. Kasperquickly (talk) 11:17, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Classified documents/information. Here are the bottom lines from Glenn Kessler's analysis of the five specific sets of “documents discovered in the year-long investigation and whether Biden willfully retained national defense information or willfully disclosed it".

• Interviews with ghostwriter: "…the report concludes that the case would be weak, given the Reagan example and given that Biden generally appeared to be careful to not repeat classified information to someone not cleared to receive it".
• Afghanistan documents: "The report concludes it cannot claim that Biden willfully kept this information — and that it may no longer be that sensitive anymore.".
• Handwritten Thanksgiving memo: "The report concludes that Biden did not think this memo was classified and it probably was not."
• Classified materials found at Penn Biden Center and at the University of Delaware: The report exonerates Biden and blames staff error. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Fact check article from CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/09/politics/fact-check-biden-makes-three-false-claims-about-his-handling-of-classified-information/ Mn06hithere227 (talk) 17:30, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Follow the example of the Trump Talk page

Consensus #39: Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. The editors on the page have been adhering to the consensus, e.g., haven't mentioned Trump confusing Nicky Haley with Nancy Pelosi several times, mistaking E. Jean Carroll for his second wife Marla, accusing Biden of going to start World War II, claiming that his opponent in 2016 was Obama, etc. Hur and his subordinates are neither qualified nor were they tasked to evaluate Biden's memory or mental fitness for office. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Much as I dislike whataboutisms, this does have the germ of a valid point. In an election year we much go the extra mile to avoid bias. Slatersteven (talk) 14:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. GoodDay (talk) 16:45, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

It is a good standard and one we must apply to this page, much as we did to Trump's. The Goldwater rule, in effect. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:51, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Not constructive O3000, Ret. (talk)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Here is how this will likely proceed. @Muboshgu will watch suggested edits and cry foul citing various Wikipedia rules but will not actually make productive suggestions because she fights updates that don’t align with her view of the world. This topic of Joe Biden’s memory is SO CLEARLY a real topic that has broad discussion in RS for over a year. just search “joe Biden memory issues [name of source]. There are articles in CNN, The Hill, Nyt, WaPo. But for some reason this special prosecutor report made it acceptable to be discussed in the mainstream. Kind of like when John Stewart talked about the “outbreak of chocolaty goodness in Hershey, PA”. Helpingtoclarify (talk) 01:13, 10 February 2024 (UTC) Should I consider this a personal attack? I think I should. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:16, 10 February 2024 (UTC) Passes the Duck test. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:32, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

New York Times editorial board statement

This seems notable. KlayCax (talk) 03:33, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

The fact that this is even a discussion shows the state of this encyclopedia. There is not a single logical reason to not include it --FMSky (talk) 03:35, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, I'm guessing any mention of the US president's mental fitness to serve? will be based on whether or not section 4 of the 25th amendment has been invoked. AFAIK, the US vice president & a majority of the cabinet have no plans, to invoke. GoodDay (talk) 03:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Do we have policies that require us to wait for such an invocation? Due weight is the policy that overarches and our RSes are not pulling punches here. SmolBrane (talk) 03:50, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not certain (policy wise) what the bar/criteria for inclusion is. GoodDay (talk) 04:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Can you humor me and outline your uncertainty more clearly? You have an extraordinary edit count and I don't see the issue... I must be missing something. Your response is truly bewildering. SmolBrane (talk) 04:36, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I neither support or oppose what's being proposed. My experience tells me the bar will be high, to gain a consensus for inclusion. GoodDay (talk) 04:43, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

An OpEd is not notable. Zaathras (talk) 04:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

As ever, weight requires extensive ongoing coverage, so we have to wait. However, this is a country that elected Reagan, George W. Bush and Trump, so maybe mental acuity isn't a requirement for the office. TFD (talk) 06:35, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

There is not a single logical reason to not include it. It states "opinion" at the top of the cite. That makes it not RS. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:59, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

See above - We go by the Goldwater rule, for these situations. GoodDay (talk) 16:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Question

While I myself overwhelmingly agree that this "news" should *NOT* be added to this article, I am somewhat concerned about how this non-inclusion would be perceived by the simpler people, particularly right-wing people on the Internet, who would likely assume that we the Wikipedians are trying to censor information and this might end up damaging the Wikipedia's brand. Does anyone else here have the same concern about that? Kasperquickly (talk) 23:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Our overall goals branch from the WP:Five Pillars. There is nothing in our goals about satisfying the right-wing or left-wing. An advantage we have over a politician or news (or "news") source. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:00, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Why is the text below acceptable in the article on the document investigation but is not OK in Biden article??? It’s all sourced and this is such a mainstream discussion. Let’s just copy it here.

Concerns about Biden's age, memory, and mental acuity have been raised throughout Biden's term as president, especially heading into the 2024 presidential election. CNN, NBC, and The Guardian have described concerns regarding Biden's age and memory as his greatest political vulnerability. A NBC News poll conducted shortly before the release of Hur's report found that 76% of voters expressed major or moderate concerns about Biden's mental and physical health. Helpingtoclarify (talk) 01:56, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

An article about a specific topic is about the specific topic. A general biographical article cannot include everything related to a person who has had such a lengthy career, which is why there are many sub-articles about Biden. Inclusion here should look at if an item is likely to pass the WP:ten year test. The news cycle these days is such that everything is "breaking news", and most of it fades quickly away. This report calls for no prosecution and gives one Trump supporters' supposed view based on questions that appeared to have no rationale related to the subject of the deposition. Patience is always useful in such situations. O3000, Ret. (talk) 03:30, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

We can't please all of the people all of the time (after all how would this addition be perceived by left-wing people?). Nor can we please some of the people all of the time, what we can do is strive to please none of the people all of the time (as in we do not have this on Page X we will, not have it on page Y). Slatersteven (talk) 11:48, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Experts polling assessment of Biden

Should there be content on expert assessments of Biden? There are currently multiple public opinion polls listed, but none of experts. Biden is ranked as the 14th best president of all time (top third) per a poll of historians and presidential experts. (NYT) A 2022 Siena College Research Institute poll ranked him as the 19th greatest president of all time. (Boston Globe) KiharaNoukan (talk) 20:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

It would seem a little premature to be discussing historical rankings while still in office but who knows, how has the Wikipedia handled this before? When did such rankings first appear in the Donald Trump article? Zaathras (talk) 23:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I think we included them in the Trump article during his term, but I could be wrong. If historians think they have enough info to rank Biden amongst the other 45 presidents at this point, who are we to argue? I think we can find room to include it. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't think rankings were added to the lead until after Trumps presidency, but I don't know about the body. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ^talk 00:11, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be undue in the lead here, but can go in the body. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:24, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

No, any ranking should not be added until after his presidency ends. I would also question the validity of the rankings itself as Biden continues to have the lowest approval rating of any president in recorded US history, which showing him being ranked "14th" will generate a lot of controversy if added to his page. ZR1748 (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

1. General approval ratings are not at all relevant to the Siena College Research Institute.

2. Where did you see he has the lowest approval rankings in history? This is very difficult to believe.

3. We don't care about controversy.

4. Having said that, it would be good to wait. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Support waiting until after his first term because his presidency is still ongoing, and the results of the 2024 United States presidential election may influence his rankings.

I believe his low approval ratings since late 2021 to the present should be mentioned after his first term, but separately from historical/scholarly rankings of his presidency. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 03:24, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Biden DOES NOT have the lowest approval rating of any president in recorded US history. Saying he does is lying. Posting nonsense like that simply shows your own extremely biased position. It certainly won't convince anyone to not vote for him. This non-American knows that rankings of Presidents in the short term are always closely correlated with the party someone supports. Objectivity in such assessments is rare. HiLo48 (talk) 03:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

https://news.gallup.com/poll/547763/biden-ends-2023-job-approval.aspx --FMSky (talk) 13:44, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

History began in 1979? Wow, I took history classes decades before history existed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 14:01, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with the idea on Trump's article, I disagree with it for the same reason here, let's wait until, after his presidency. Slatersteven (talk) 12:50, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Ranking of presidents should be omitted from both Biden's & Trump's pages. Biden is still in office, while Trump has only been out of office for a short period of time & might return to office. GoodDay (talk) 17:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

tara reade defected to russia + veracity of her claims (or lack thereof)

‘To my Russian brothers and sisters, I’m sorry right now that American elites are choosing to have such an aggressive stance.’

i feel it's only fair at this point to mention russia has tried smearing biden before irrefutably and due to the inconsistencies in her accounts between just one year (in the article already) there is the extremely high possibility (but NOT guarantee) this is a smear campaign designed to discredit America and biden. i want there to be an editor's consensus on this because this is all highly contentious, but id feel like we'd be beyond remiss to not bring it up. if you read the quotes in the article you can draw you own impression on if you think they come off as scripted. the cia are also suspicious of this

'Several former U.S. intelligence officials told USA TODAY that they were puzzled by Reade's actions and public statements − and highly suspicious of them.'

while none of can definitively say, her accusation is not only inconsistent and timed in a way that makes no sense (biden has ran for election before and she claims he sa'd her in the 90s), why didnt they speak up then if they claim they did it because they didnt want joe to be president, but is also ringing of russian misinformation and her actions show as much. none of clinton's accuser or trump's accusers have ever be falsely arrested or died on suspicious circumstances (to my knowledge), her claims of feeling 'unsafe' have no historical merit to my knowledge. her claims are unfalsifiable by nature as well (however that is normal for claims this old).

look, i want to have consensus among us, regardless of your political opinions on the guy, on whether or not we have to add in some possible warnings. some of the stuff above i mentioned obviously she go in like her defecting or the cia's stance, but this is all just off. sorry if this comes off as editorialisation, thats why i am asking for consensus among all of you on how to approach this so we can have wisdom of the masses.

here are more verbatim quotes where you can judge for yourself

“You have U.S. and European citizens looking for safe haven here,” Reade added. “And luckily, the Kremlin is accommodating. So we're lucky.”

In the hours-long Tuesday conversation—which was live-streamed on Twitter that garnered about 500 viewers—Reade touched upon a litany of topics, ranging from Russia's ongoing war with Ukraine to her critiques of America's “terrible” roads. She asked Russian President Vladimir Putin for citizenship, although she denied any pre-existing ties to Russia. NotQualified (talk) 12:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Apology

I would like to apologize for having added the car accident photos back in December 2023. I take full responsibility for it, and it was a completely insensitive action on my part, especially for a biography of a living person. I will be more careful with any photos that I add from now on. I also would like to apologize for making this apology so late. I had to take some time off to come to terms with what I did, and it is not anyone else's fault but mine for taking the time off. FunnyMath (talk) 20:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

The reason nobody has replied is because nobody cares anymore. It wasn't a big deal then, and definitely is water under the bridge by now. I'll go ahead and say, on behalf of everyone, apology accepted. Now that you understand why adding those photos wasn't a popular idea, you shouldn't have any more issues. Happy editing. Philomathes2357 (talk) 23:20, 30 March 2024 (UTC)