Talk:List of topics characterized as pseudoscience

Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines on the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. Neutral point of view as applied to science: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience. Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Wikipedia aspires to be such a respected work. The four groupings found at WP:PSCI Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized. Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

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RfC: Is it okay for Wikipedia to make a distinction between scientific societies and skeptical societies as different "tiers" of sources?

Outside editors who wish to render reasoned opinions but avoid slogging through the bickering from the usual suspects (my own calm and impeccable rhetoric notwithstanding), here is a shiny new section for the express purpose. Regular editors here (broadly construed), please minimize your comments to #Outside opinions.

I intend to revert to this version above the objections of editors associated with alternative medicine. I understand their desire to try to distinguish between "scientific societies" and "skpetical societies", but the fact is that there isn't a reliable source which does this. Until such a source is found, any attempt to categorize a particular group as one or the other is essentially original research and is not allowed.

I expect the following editors of this page to object to this declaration:

• User:Jim Butler
• User:Levine2112
• User:Hgilbert
• User:Hans Adler

Aside from having offered no response to the above argument, these users are all heavily involved in the promotion of particular varieties of pseudoscience on Wikipedia and therefore we must not take their agreement to be a form of "consensus blocking" that was issued on the talk page last month.

ScienceApologist (talk) 07:23, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose

Not only was there no consensus for that version in the first place, I remind you that the WP:BURDEN is on you to provide an RS showing that lay skeptical societies are as reliable indicators of sci consensus as sci academies. So, where's that source?

(crickets)

And by the way, please stop the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT with your false assertion I and others offering "no response" to your proposal; there is lots of discussion in the section above; see diff of my comments.

Additionally, your comment regarding users "heavily involved in the promotion" of pseudoscience above massively violates WP:NPA. Show me some edits where I "promote pseudoscience": I mean, if I really am doing so, then by definition I'm massively violating NPOV, and I should have all kinds of skeptical editors reprimanding me. I've collaborated with many besides yourself, and they've had every opportunity to tell me where I'm at. So, let's find some other editors (besides the ban-decorated Mccready) objecting to my pseudoscience POV-pushing, shall we? Go ahead, I'll wait.

(crickets)

Gee, SA, isn't that odd that you can't produce the above evidence? It just might be that your interpretation is less mainstream than you assume. Frankly, your novel formulation that CSICOP is in the same league with the National Academies of Science strikes me as downright fringe. And certainly, your approach on WP has been so far from the collegial norm that you desperately need some sort of course correction. --Jim Butler (t) 09:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I have warned Jim Butler about his conflict of interest and have started a discussion about whether he should be advocating as he is in this article here. Please comment. ScienceApologist (talk) 10:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Got you mad, didn't I? Sorry. Your bullshit COI accusation won't fly, though. --Jim Butler (t) 11:02, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

There you have it. No merit in your accusation at all. Thanks for playing. Oh, and BTW, since your accusation is wrong, you're once again in violation of WP:NPA: "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream." --Jim Butler (t) 23:48, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

To answer his repetitive arguments: there is no reliable source which says the "scientific societies" "speak" for "scientific consensus" any more than there is a reliable source which says that the "skeptical societies" do. The issue is with separating the two categories of sources. Jim thinks we should separate them but it (apparently) is his own judgment as to what a "scientific consensus determining" group is and what isn't. This is why the argument stands unanswered. This article is engaging in original research. ScienceApologist (talk) 10:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Crickets are still chirping, SA. You can't produce the source I asked for, so you vainly try to shift the WP:BURDEN. Additionally, WP:PSCI says we shouldn't "categorize" or "characterize" topics as pseudoscience unless there is general agreement from the sci community. Perhaps the thing to do is ask on RSN whether lay "skeptical" groups are RS's for sci consensus (the kind we use here and here, and Eldereft will note the segregation of sources by reliability there). But I still think my original idea (I've been busy) of just asking ArbCom is better. Also, you can't produce any evidence that I'm editing tendentiously, either, as I predicted. But why let lack of evidence stop you from making unfounded COI accusations? All this silliness doesn't make you look too good in light of the pending ArbCom case regarding your chronically poor conduct. --Jim Butler (t) 11:02, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I think that those represent more a segregation by prominence of the source to those specific topics: a reader interested in Scientific opinion on climate change will probably find the IPCC and APS more relevant than various surveys; likewise a reader interested in scientific societies rejecting intelligent design. These articles deal with topics that have attracted enough outside notice that our most reliable sources are numerous enough to "crowd out" anything else. As I say below, I am open to considering stating in the text that entries are placed according to various reliable sources, but the comparison of a list of topics to a list of sources is imperfect. - Eldereft (cont.) 18:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

But the listing of sources reflects their reliability. Where we differ is that I don't accept these skeptical societies as reliable sources for sci consensus at all. We're talking about the demarcation problem. If a topic is "obviously" pseudoscientific, we don't need a source at all; if it's not obvious, we need a source meeting WP:PSCI, and we can't assume that the commentary of a non-RS skeptic group is a reliable harbinger of what an RS sci academy will say. (I don't think that skeptic groups belong on this list, as titled, at all, and have only accepted them in their own section as a compromise.) Does that seem like a fair description of our disagreement? regards, Jim Butler (t) 00:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Eldereft has it. The issue is that there are absolutely no sources which say that "skeptical organizations" are different from "scientific organizations". Nevertheless, our article makes that distinction. The onus is on the person wanting to keep that distinction to provide a source that distinguishes between the two. So far, this request has gone unanswered. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You're still shifting the burden of proof. What advocates of your position have consistently failed to provide is evidence, or compelling arguments, that skeptical advocacy groups are reliable sources for indicating the consensus of the scientific community. Good essay on that issue here by noted skeptic Stephen Novella, with little to support your position. Rigorousness is critical in evaluating such sources. --Jim Butler (t) 00:22, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Not only do you not substantively deal with the issue, you are continuing to grasp at flimsier and flimsier straws. The issue has been and always has been what makes the National Academies description of a subject as pseudoscience "scientific consensus" while when CSICOP describes a subject as pseudoscience it suddenly isn't scientific consensus. The only people making the determination are editors here who have obvious agendas. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

What makes the two groups different? Professionalism. And check it out: WP:MEDRS clearly says the formal scientific groups are more reliable. There's simply no question which group is more prestigious and more reliable; if you're a Professor, in which type of society's journals would you want to publish? Which will the tenure committee take seriously... and why? regards, --10:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

SA, your silence on this issue is deafening. The idea that we can't distinguish between these two groups is frankly ridiculous. This is a good time to remember "use common sense". --Backin72 (n.b.) 22:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

(undent) I think that Jim Butler has the right of it in his summation of the dispute - I think that a self-selected group of logically-minded persons may, after due consideration, reliably assert that a topic is pseudoscience. Obviously there are significant caveats here, but there is no fundamental difference between qualified individuals banding together on their own initiative as opposed to forming a committee under the auspices of a professional body. If our only source is 'some jokers with a website say X is pseudoscience', then that would probably not meet the RS bar. If, on the other hand, we have a source of the nature 'individuals with such-and-such qualifications have investigated Y and present these reasons for their assessment' then I would feel a lot more comfortable including Y on this list. We also, of course, need to fairly represent the source-weighted aggregate view - if newer and higher quality sources disagree with older and lower quality sources, the latter should be qualified by the former if the topic is not excluded from this list entirely. - Eldereft (cont.) 17:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Very belatedly: Eldereft, regarding your initial comments, I think you may seriously understimate the power of self-selection bias. Just increasing the ratio of people with a "grokking" mentality to a "debunking" one can lead to different conclusions. I really don't think we can take CSICOP as a (subsection of scientists + informed laypeople + one redoubtable magician). It's quite hard for me to imagine how self-selection bias can't make a huge difference --- just look at the difference in tone and content between science groups and skeptical groups (the epitome being quackwatch, at the far end of a spectrum). The latter are far more focused on debunking, jeering, caricaturing of opponents, triumphalism, all that kinda stuff. cheers, -Backin72 (n.b.) 10:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

That's the idea. We can describe who the various people who make up the societies are at the pages devoted to them. We can say what the societies are. But saying that the Astronomical Society of the Pacific is somehow better able to measure scientific consensus than the CSICOP is bald original research. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support This reorganization is long overdue, as dividing the list in this way needlessly inconveniences our readers by enforcing an artificial distinction. Regardless of the stated intent, the effect is to separate the topics according to whether or not they are infamous enough for a science body to notice and comment on them, or whether only adherents and people interested in pseudoscience have bothered. We still have WP:PARITY and all the usual reliable sources requirements, leaving no particular need for this organizational scheme. If people want more prominent attribution than references (at least most of which have quotes), we can discuss that separately or on a case-by-case basis. - Eldereft (cont.) 09:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

There were a couple of good edits this month, and I am presuming that they would be integrated after the proposed reversion. - Eldereft (cont.) 09:47, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I believe they already are (in particular, the addition of Melanin theory). ScienceApologist (talk) 10:10, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You are right - I was looking at the wrong version when I wrote that. - Eldereft (cont.) 10:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

• Reject The Wikipedia article on Scientific opinion on climate change, a similarly brisant topic, uses the clear formulation "scientific organizations of national or international standing" to refer exclusively to truly scientific groups; no advocacy groups on either side of the climate debate are included. Skeptical societies are clearly advocacy groups (single-issue, pre-determined point of view) rather than scientific organizations; their point is not open-mindedly to explore a topic (as a Metereological Society, e.g., would) but to advocate a fixed point of view. The distinction between scientific organizations and advocacy groups is not artificial; it is natural. hgilbert (talk) 11:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
  • The article you cite doesn't indicate how to segregate sources on this page. There is no way to getermine which scientific organizations are "open minded" and which aren't except to listen to people who think this way on this page.ScienceApologist (talk) 20:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Sorry: an organization with a mission to promote a certain idea is not, by definition, an open-minded (perhaps not, by definition, a scientific) organization. Scientific organizations aim to investigate areas, not to promote (or demote) ideas. The worth of ideas becomes apparent through objective research, not through advocacy. hgilbert (talk) 22:02, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
      • Cite? ScienceApologist (talk) 23:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Reminder

We have just been asked by an administrator to "try to take things slowly, listen to what other editors are saying, and work hard to treat everyone with respect and good faith". The above-suggested edit begins by suggesting we not listen to four editors (I am amongst these) and implying that they are not acting in good faith. This is not a good start. hgilbert (talk) 11:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if you think that my pointing out your particular connections to anthroposophy may cloud your judgment here is "not a good start". But my prediction was accurate, wasn't it? ScienceApologist (talk) 20:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

My interests no more need "cloud my judgment" than your interests (as an acknowledged skeptic) need cloud yours. The point is to deal civilly with those editors whose point of view differs from your own, accepting that someone representing a different point of view may nevertheless be representing a valid point of view. This is the proof that one's judgment remains unclouded. This is the opposite of saying: "look, this person is obviously misguided, as s/he represents the contrary view to my own." hgilbert (talk) 21:57, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Cite? ScienceApologist (talk) 02:21, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Arbcom: Skeptical groups not same as mainstream science

Well, this is a little bit interesting. From WP:Requests for arbitration/Paranormal: Arbcom distinguishes between mainstream science and skeptical groups. They're not the same thing. Link:

"In addition to mainstream science which generally ignores or does not consider the paranormal worthy of investigation, there is a scientific discipline of parapsychology which studies psychic phenomena in a serious scientific way, and popular culture concepts which have a following either in historical or contemporary popular culture, but are not taken seriously or investigated even by parapsychology. A fourth phenomenon is skeptical groups and individuals devoted to debunking." -- passed 8-0 at 03:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, it's apparent to Arbcom that the distinction is real. And that's in the context of paranormal phenomena, which are "generally considered pseudo". What of the demarcation problem? What of greyer areas, areas where the pseudoscience appellation is debatable: where Michael Shermer might bang out an article and later put a book of essays together, vetted by a board composed of a handful of friends? Can such sources be taken as indicating scientific consensus in the rigorous, methodical way that skeptic Stephen Novella lays it out? I would say: of course not! We can have the skeptic groups cited in WP, but not masquerading as scientific consensus. Gonna have to change the list title, it appears. Massive WEIGHT and RS problem otherwise. --Jim Butler (t) 13:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

If you can't find anything in peer-reviewed science magazines supporting your claim, then it's pseudoscience for the simple reason no one in science needs to be convinced that the pseudoscience is pseudoscience. You don't find the "2008 Review of Polywater" in Journal of Applied Chemistry for a reason: no one reading JAC would needs to be convinced that Polywater is pseudoscience and they leave it to skeptics group to do the debunking as the various ridiculous claims come up. Devoting efforts to this in peer-reviewed magazine would be a waste of time because as soon as you debunk something, and the pseudoscience advocate will spin it in a different way and say "Haha debunk this now suckers". The same applies to Cold fusion, and similar topics. In a nut-shell, what science magazine are doing is applying WP:Deny recognition to crackpot theories. Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 14:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

(belated) Excellent point, which is why marginal topics like acupuncture and chiropractic probably shouldn't be on this list (certainly not as it's titled now, without qualification). Scientists crank out hundreds of publications each year on these topics, cf. Pubmed. thanks, Backin72 (n.b.) 11:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Oddly enough, even if you can find support for an area in peer-reviewed science magazines, the topic may still end up listed in this article so long as any skeptic organization has made negative commentary about the topic. At the moment, any negative claim by any organization trumps any list of positive studies. Why? The sole criterion for this list is that somebody has made a negative claim. It thus violates WP:Undue weight in an extreme way. Relying on mainstream scientific organizations, which are by their nature unbiased, would solve this problem.

BTW, The inverse of the above statement - "If you can find something in peer-reviewed science magazines supporting your claim, then it's not pseudoscience"? - is clearly more plausible than the original. hgilbert (talk) 19:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not "any" negative claim. It's claims made by groups that are reliable sources for making the claim. If Joe Shmo writes a blogpost describing celestial mechanics as pseudoscience, that does not make it on our list. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

(belated) I definitely agree with hgilbert. The skeptic groups are not RS's trumping the scientific literature, per WP:MEDRS. The skeptic group stuff should be in a separate article, or else this one with a suitable title change (e.g., "List of Burglars Convicted in a Court of Law, and People Who According to Speculation Might Also Have Been Burglars". That's comparable to our situation here, and equally absurd.) --Backin72 (n.b.) 11:17, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious at this point that the appropriate course of action is to take each individual citation on a case-by-case basis. This blanket and vague deprecation of sources will get us nowhere. Cases are being made for individual pseudosciences below, and I think that's the direction the article should take. Trying to decide who is a "skeptical society" who is not RS and who is cannot be done in a tier approach. ScienceApologist (talk) 04:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Skeptical organisations

I have been following this discussion for a while, and I am mighty puzzled by it. As a member of the Australian Skeptics and of the Royal Australian Chemical Institute I am clear that I have belonged to organisations of a very different character. We seem to be quite clear about this on wikipedia with the first being in Category:Skeptic organisations while the second is in Category:Chemistry societies which is a sub-category of Category:Scientific societies. Do we need a source to categorise organisations in this way? It seems to be quite clear to me. --Bduke (Discussion) 23:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

The issue is whether one source or another is better for describing the scientific consensus that a certain subject is pseudoscientific. If you can find a reliable source which explains why an organization in the skeptical organizations category is not able to describe scientific consensus while an organization that is in category Chemistry societies, then at least we can make an argument that the attempt to demarcate based on "scientific consensus" is legitimate. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Or perhaps you could produce a source stating that skeptical-advocacy groups are just as reliable as scientific socities for our purposes. Why should the burden be on other editors to prove your preferred sources aren't good? Pretty clearly you have it backwards. --Jim Butler (t) 07:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I might have missed some verbiage, but I believe that the only statements asserting equivalence between the two types of society are in the way of being negative arguments; viz. because one group exists to promote science and another to counter pseudoscience, the latter are not reliable in the sense of WP:Reliable sources. Genuine scientific disagreements do not belong on this list, as such belong solidly under the purview of RACI, not AS. Examination of claims for glaring disagreement with commonly accepted reality (how odd it seems that none of my condensed matter physics textbooks mention how phonons and plasmons can cure gout, depression, and chronic Lyme disease), on the other hand, requires much less in the way of specialized training. Scientific societies are generally regarded as reliable for pretty much whatever they say, whereas skeptical societies are somewhat more limited. The disagreement is over whether this is a meaningful distinction for the purposes of this list. - Eldereft (cont.) 00:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

That's true, Eldereft; that's exactly the disagreement. My view is we don't want to think the skeptic groups are right; we want to know. Scientific academies are meritocracies that focus on research and occasionally advocacy; skeptical groups are open to anyone, self-selected, and are primarily about advocacy. The latter groups try to report and defend what the former are doing. It's like the difference between grad school and college, or even high school. Advocacy groups can be used as sources, but they don't meet WP:RS#Consensus as sources for scientific consensus (see discussion at present "Fringe Science" RFAR). They probably do often get the demarcation right, which makes for a nice, complete list. But with grey areas ("questionable science" and so on) I don't see how they're qualified to speak for the scientific community at large. They're simply not equipped, by virtue of membership and mission, to do so. That's why I argue that it's not kosher for us to report what they say, hoping they got it right. Wishful, synful thinking, as Jim Morrison might have said.

Anyway... I will get off my ass and request ArbCom to clarify this. If they won't do it as an extension of WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE, they may do it as part of the current case. regards, Jim Butler (t) 07:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

This paragraph looks to me like original research. I know plenty of skeptical societies (including some that are currently denigrated in this article) where the standards for making a public statement are higher than those of the National Academies. In fact, I would say that Jim's statement isn't really original "research" but more an original "hunch". It's fairly clear that Jim hasn't carefully researched what goes into the production of statements by the different organizations, their various levels of "qualification", their "equipment", their "membership", and their "missions" despite waxing eloquently about each in this paragraph. It is a shame when people don't carefully research the points upon which they opine, but until Wikipedia learns to manage the content-violators, we'll just have to put up with shoddy (or zero, in this case) research. ScienceApologist (talk) 09:10, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

By your logic, a paragraph asserting that the Boy Scout Handbook is different than an IOM report would be original research. By your standards, an editor could demand that we cite the Boy Scout Handbook unless another editor found an RS stating that the Boy Scout Handbook is not as reliable as the IOM. Quite clearly your fallacy is shifting the burden of proof. --Jim Butler (t) 10:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

If you wrote the statement "The Boy Scout Handbook is not as reliable as the IOM" somewhere in a Wikipedia article, then you absolutely must have a source for the statement. Them's the rules. ScienceApologist (talk) 11:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

That's obvious (and you'd need an even better source to assert that the two are equally reliable, per WP:REDFLAG). However, it doesn't refute the gist of my comments. We're debating reliable sources, and I'm showing via reductio ad absurdum why your logic is wrong. My preceding comments were pretty clear on that.

Explanation, if needed: I and others are arguing that X class of sources (skeptic advocacy groups) is not as reliable as Y class (sci academies). You're taking the position that I have the burden of showing, via an RS, that X is not as reliable as Y. I'm taking the position that the burden falls on you to show, via an RS or other convincing means, that X is as reliable as Y. In order to show where the burden really lies, I used an absurd example wherein I substituted the Boy Scout Handbook for X source. If we follow my logic, the burden is on you to show that the Boy Scout Handbook is an RS, and you won't be able to do so; the outcome is reasonable and the article remains sound. If we use your logic, we get an absurd outcome: we are allowed to cite the Boy Scout Handbook until someone can find a source specifically saying "The Boy Scout Handbook is not as reliable as the IOM in matters of scientific consensus."

This example shows where the burden lies in this matter, i.e., with those who assume that X and Y sources are functionally equivalent, and want to write the article accordingly. --Jim Butler (t) 18:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not clear what you call research. The Skeptical organisations I know and broadly support do not fit "where the standards for making a public statement are higher than those of the National Academies". I do not see evidence that you have researched this that well either. There is too much grandstanding on both sides her. --Bduke (Discussion) 10:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

When the Massachusetts Medical Society (which apparently qualifies as a "Skeptical society" on this page) makes a statement, they have a committee of literally nearly a dozen review the statement. When NAS makes a statement, they normally have two people review the statement. ScienceApologist (talk) 10:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The MMS would qualify as a first-tier, sci-consensus source last I checked. Could you please share sources for what you say regarding the review policies of these groups? --Jim Butler (t) 10:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

So why is it in the second tier? You just are making it up as you go along, it seems. If you read the NAS review on Parapsychology you can see exactly how they wrote the report. The MMS report on naturopathic medicine is linked in our article! ScienceApologist (talk) 11:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I've read the MMS source, but I'm not the one who put it in the second tier, so don't ask me why it ended up there; I just work here and don't own the friggin' place. I don't remember mention in the MMS report of the number of reviewers, and can't find it in the PDF; nor can I find any NAS review in the archives, unless it's there under the name of a specific academy. (Or maybe you're thinking of the NSF review?) Indulge my momentary lapse into denseness, please, and post an excerpt from MMS and a link to NAS (and an excerpt containing the info on reviewers, if it's not readily apparent). Thanks. --Jim Butler (t) 18:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

That would be my fault - I left Applied Kinesiology under the Health and medicine subsection when adding the MMS source. It seemed a natural place. I guess it can go in the other section, though if this RfC resolves the way I would prefer, the entry will already be in the correct place according to the remaining one organizational scheme. - Eldereft (cont.) 01:49, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I think this proves my point well. Trying to keep track of which organizations are which is essentially original research. Jim thinks that MMS is not a skeptical organization but rather a scientific organization. Okay, I guess he has a reliable source demarcating this? No? Okay. So let's get rid of the tiering: it's making tearing. ScienceApologist (talk) 03:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

We're allowed to use common sense. I don't have a reliable source demarcating sci academies from football clubs either, but that doesn't mean that we, as editors, ought to be teh stupid and equate them. Echoing User:Bduke, it's not too difficult to tell which is which. The question isn't whether we can tell such groups apart (we can, when we're not gaming and pretending to be dense), it's whether they are equally reliable on demarcation sci from pseudo. --Jim Butler (t) 10:33, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Compromise

I have an idea that might work. We can try a compromise. We can merge the sections together and distinguish each source by using a number after each entry. Ref number one() could be for consensus among the scientific community. The number 2() could be for skeptic organizations, and number 3() could be for researchers.

Example: *Crop circles

This is a list of fields of endeavor and concepts regarded as pseudoscientific by organizations within the international scientific community, by notable skeptical organizations, or researchers.

We can add citations to the first sentence of the article and describe each one in the reference and then add the citations to each entry and merge the sections together while each entry will still be distinguishable. QuackGuru (talk) 21:02, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Outside opinions

Please note that I have not read any of the discussion above, nor am I interested in the issue. I simply saw this quote when reviewing a revert: Quote: ...to try to distinguish between "scientific societies" and "skpetical societies", but the fact is that there isn't a reliable source which does this". I don't know if this will help any, but I found the following news article that documents the existence of "Skeptical societies", described as "a quickly-growing group of people to investigate various claims and debate their merits." Ariel♥Gold 02:20, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Also not read up on it, but skeptical societies are different and some attempt would be a good idea. Skeptical societies are similar to religious people who act to protect their current belief, they are biased in their reasoning. That is not to say that they are the only ones that are biased. Aether22 (talk) 11:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Here is the heart of the matter. What is true and what is not can only be established by one of 2 things. Either observation and experiment. Or logic. (with care not tp misapply logic)

The problem is that many want to base the understanding of reality on either authority or on their own limited experience (if I can't see it, it doesn't exist)

People believe that the latter can trump the former.

Some of these people are intelligent enough to twist rules of evidence until it agrees with their belief.

Now this is further compounded by people being told what to believe by the education system, religion, the media because if these systems become corrupt and dysfunctional then so will what is taught.

And Wikipedia is actually in much the same way corrupted because the majority of the people likely to edit it have been taught by some of these institutions.

What Wikipedia should do (time cube not withstanding) is to allow information where there is evidence and present both sides arguments rather than tell people "This is the truth" and instead give a neutral view giving both sides arguments.

For instance I would assume most here believe that energy cannot be created. But how do you know that it can't? If you insist that the universe follows your mathematical model and that there can't possibly be something you may be unaware of may I ask how you managed to prove a negative?

The simple fact is that we don't know everything and it is impossible to know that you now everything. (even God could not claim such) Math is pure and simple, 1+1 = 2, but the universe is not necessarily limited to expressing it's self based on a model man creates. note: I am not saying that the universe is irrational or can't have an accurate model created, just that not every model will be true and complete.

It is necessary for each man to weigh the evidence himself guided by evidence and reason and not by various social pressures. Aether22 (talk) 12:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that both of these suggestions dovetail well with trying to make a singular article rather than the "tiered system" we had before. This way we can deal with each instance on a case-by-case basis. ScienceApologist (talk) 04:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Based on the above discussion, I do not see consensus to conflate the two types of groups. The burden is on those who assert such a novel formulation (quite OR, really), and common sense has prevailed: no consensus to do so. We should continue to make the distinction; exactly how that plays out in titling and organization remains to be seen, but I'm optimistic that we'll be able to compromise. --Backin72 (n.b.) 22:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposals for a new article name

I would like to see some proposals for a new article name. Here are a few I thought of:

• List of pseudoscientific ideas
• List of pseudosciences
• List of subjects containing pseudoscience
• List of subjects containing pseudoscientific aspects

The idea is to get across to the reader that this will be a list that includes subjects that have pseudoscientific aspects to them. There are two competing ideals:

1. Wikipedia:NAME#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name
2. Wikipedia:NAME#Be precise when necessary

The question we need to ask ourselves is, "is precision necessary if we will come up with a name that is not easily recognizable/understandable"? It isn't going to be clean, but we need to have the discussion.

My feeling is that we should sacrifice precision in favor of recognition simply because we can write in the lead of the article what the inclusion criteria are.

Please comment.

ScienceApologist (talk) 20:03, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we should keep the current title but if it were changed I would look at List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific aspects. I don't see any good argument to change the current title. QuackGuru (talk) 20:15, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that there is a problem with the title, and putting wide disclaimers in the title might open it up to too much stuff being added, and create a long and unwieldy name. "List of PS and concepts considered PS by recognised authorities" is a bit long winded. I'd like to see Fyslee's suggestions but I can't find them... Verbal chat 20:37, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The last suggested title is the best of those offered, but it would still be better to have a title like the one suggested by Fyslee, "list of topics referred to as pseudoscience". Several of the things included in this article are not pseudosciences, although the title implies that they are. Hypnosis is indisputably real. Acupuncture has not been called a pseudoscience by a scientific authority, and researchers have concluded that it appears beneficial for certain conditions. Chiropractic spinal manipulation is not pseudoscientific when used for back pain. Some herbs used in Ayurveda are promising (PMID 15834238), the hygiene aspects are good (eg neti pots), and it included valid surgery. II | (t - c) 21:15, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The suggestion you offer makes me want to insert a {{by whom?}} tag. I don't believe that's going to be acceptable. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Where would you put the "by whoms"? Feel free to insert them if that's easier, and I'll answer. Glance up at the top of the page: only obvious and generally recognized pseudosciences should be characterized as such. This page includes several things which are not generally recognized as pseudoscience, but the page title categorizes them as such. Thus, the page does not comply with WP:PSCI. Wikipedia has never been about authoritatively stating as fact what a few editors and an organization such as CSICOP hold as their opinion. Controversial statements such as the ones made here should be attributed, and the page title should be one which does not authoritatively impose the pseudoscience category.

Additionally, this page should be used to broadly include questionable science which has been criticized as pseudoscience, rather than particular medical examples which SA dislikes. The social sciences (perhaps better called social studies) are often criticized as pseudoscience. For example, Serge Lang famously criticized Sam Huntingon, and an article in the Skeptical Inquirer argued that econometrics can be pseudoscience [1]. Basic axiomatic mathematical economics has been criticized as pseudoscience, as well. I wouldn't feel comfortable including these here because the title is so unequivocal. II | (t - c) 00:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

It's an inline request related to Template:Specify. In other words, the title is fundamentally problematic. ScienceApologist (talk) 01:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. The "referred to" will be answered in the article. Leaving the title fundamentally vague is necessary, since this article draws from a range of sources such as the Skeptical Inquirer, individual medical researchers, books, ect. There's no reason to restrict this to statements from societies, and if we did, we would have to delete a large swath of references. II | (t - c) 01:05, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't think that's reasonable. Can you point to any other article/list on Wikipedia similarly named? ScienceApologist (talk) 16:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

List of cults has been through a series of redirects, now points to List of groups referred to as cults in government documents. Obviously just "List of cults" had NPOV issues. There is no "list of terrorists", but there is, e.g., List of designated terrorist organizations, which is the closest analog to Fyslee's proposal I could find. --Backin72 (n.b.) 20:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

List of "designated" terrorists is similarly problematic, but I won't belabor the point here. The List of cults redirect is really good, but I don't think that it is similarly applied here. The academy recognizes explicitly the existence of deprecated pseudoscience while it denies the deprecation of New Religious Movements. List of new religious movements is closer to what this article is like. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, because "pseudoscience" is a pejorative, like "cult". That's why we can't characterize topics as PS unless our sourcing is rock-solid. --Backin72 (n.b.) 00:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that pseudoscience is necessarily pejorative. Unlike the term "cult" which is recognized as pejorative by the majority of mainstream sources, the term "pseudoscience" is applied to ideas without irony by the majority of mainstream sources who refer to it. Sure, there are a small minority of academics who dispute the validity/usefulness of the term. Likewise there are plenty of pseudoscientists who rant and rave about how unfair the term is. Nevertheless, I see a very clear distinction between "pseudoscience" and "cult" having studies both terms in incredible detail. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:25, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Let us grant, for the sake of argument, that what you say about the "academy" is true and important in the way you suggest it is; the problem is that WHO and the Royal Society represent that academy while CSICOP and the Skeptics society do not. In other words, you defeat your own argument due to the difference between the authority your argument requires (e.g. the academy/WHO) and the authority, or lack thereof, you actually rely upon (CSICOP).Landed little marsdon (talk) 00:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

And who told you that CSI and the Skeptics Society do not represent the academy? I think they do an admirable job of representing the academy. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:25, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I think Fyslee's suggestion is best.Landed little marsdon (talk) 22:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I like Fyslee's too, which was: List of topics referred to as pseudoscientific (or "as "pseudoscience", whatever). --Backin72 (n.b.) 23:28, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

List of pseudosciences fits perfectly. --TS 01:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Tony -- have you read WP:PSCI? What is your take on how that applies here? --Backin72 (n.b.) 20:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Ummm...one more time. There is a clear guidelinehelpful essay about titles for pseudoscience: the guidelines for lists:

• Avoid using the name of the list as a way to assert a certain POV. A "List of famous British people" asserts that the people in the list are famous. A better name could be the simpler "List of British people"; per WP:BIO, individuals will be listed only if they pass the Wikipedia:Notability test. Avoid using terms that are in dispute as the main descriptor for the list. For example, "List of pseudoscientists" may not be appropriate as the term itself is disputed. A better name in this case could be "List of people described as pseudoscientists".

Are we respecting Wikipedia guidelines here or not? hgilbert (talk) 01:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Hgilbert - There is not a "clear guideline", or at least that isn't it. That is an essay - and not a very good one (as I've told you the last two times you mentioned it. I'll WP:AGF that you missed my previous comment and aren't wilfully misrepresenting this, and suppose that you will strike and amend your comment). I would like Fyslee's, but I think it opens the page to being filled with so much junk that advocates can hide their pet theory amongst utter dross and make the article useless. Verbal chat 11:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, agree, we're certainly not bound by that essay. I think the point is a good one, though. Seems like a solid interpretation of NPOV. About Fyslee's idea: I think we should be able to agree on some criteria to keep the B.S. out (e.g., no "evolution", for obvious enough reasons). --Backin72 (n.b.) 20:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The appropriate guideline is WP:LISTS, but it doesn't seem very relevant to this discussion. Verbal chat 11:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Verbal: I did indeed miss your response to my second mention of this essay, and still can't find your response to the first mention - am I missing something or did you miscount? In any case, the essay is helpful, has been supported unanimously (as an essay) by a range of editors evaluating it, and clearly recommends a practice relevant to our considerations here. But, as you say, it is not a guideline. hgilbert (talk) 01:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, cool.... so, that said, is there anything we can take from it? I think the original point has good foundations in NPOV and VER. Granted, it was talking about BLP's ("List of Pseudoscientists" vs "List People Referred To As...", or whatever). But the basic point about nuance and WP:ASF (facts about opinions) is valid, because the term "pseudoscience" is a pejorative. That puts us a little bit closer to BLP's, where NPOV and VER still apply, "only more so", in effect. That was what the original intent of WP:PSCI was: to make sure we demarcate properly, and don't over- or under-reach. --Backin72 (n.b.) 04:59, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I really wish I could think of a good name. I see the problems with List of pseudosciences since, for example, all of traditional Chinese medicine is not "pseudoscience" (some of it is just plain old tradition). However, I think that many of the people advocating for a change in the list name to something with attribution in the title are trying to spoon feed the reader into doubting the veracity of the list. It looks like a ploy to me. Anyway, Tony Sidaway's suggestion is fine with me too. What's not okay is anything that is an unspecific attribution in the title. According to whom? Should not be the first question someone asks when arriving at this page. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:18, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Is "putative" a bad title word? I don't see how we're going to do it without some kind of qualifier indicating multiple sources. "List of Pseudosciences According To Scientists And Skeptics" doesn't feel quite right either. Since there are other lists (I cited them elsewhere) with language like Fyslee's version, that one still feels best to me. Over to you. --Backin72 (n.b.) 04:59, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

"Putative" is a little weird because it is an unnecessary qualifier as all designations are putative. See [2]. We don't have List of putative psychic abilities, we have List of psychic abilities. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that a simple "List of pseudosciences" would actually be better than trying to hedge it around with "have been considered as..." or "according to..." in the article title. Too vague, too much of a hostage to fortune, and likely to increase rather than decrease the amount of arguing about the inclusion or exclusion of X. It is a core principle of Wikipedia that it is a tertiary source that relies on reliable external sources, and therefore "according to reliable sources" is implicit in any WP title. When we have a list headed "pseudosciences" it is by wikipedia-definition the case that they are pseudosciences according to a reliable source. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 17:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Snal -- have you read the section of NPOV at WP:PSCI? It distinguishes among topics that should and shouldn't be called pseudoscience, based on what sources say. Here, we have a range of RS's, some that are definitive for scientific opinion, and others not -- such as the skeptical groups, which represent a significant view, but can't really considered RS's for majority scientific opinion. regards, Backin72 (n.b.) 20:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The guideline for lists is clear that lists should maintain NPOV. This list fails that by rejecting any source, however authoritative, that does not support the point of view that some thing is a pseudoscience. The problem with the article is therefore far more severe than having a misleading name. It seems in fact that having this type of one POV only list is expressly forbidden,Landed little marsdon (talk) 18:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you talking about the actual guideline or what hgilbert linked to? The title is descriptive and does not have a "POV", so that doesn't come up. What you seem to be asking for a "list of pseudosciences and not pseudosciences" which wont work. I don't think the title forces POV on anyone, so long as the actual entries are well references and in context, and the inclusion criteria is clear. Verbal chat 19:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The guideline. But you misunderstand. The title is a problem but much more serious is the exclusive focus on only positive PS identifications. This in effect means that, for example, one million scientists saying no can be excluded totally in favor of one magician saying yes. That's why it is not NPOV.Landed little marsdon (talk) 19:35, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Let's get away from these vague hypotheticals. I know of no case where one million scientists are being excluded in favor of one magician. That's a straw man argument. If you have a particular objection to anything included in this list, please let us know. However, these kind of arguments need to be avoided as they do not help us with the development of this article. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I think LLM does have a point in terms of our general inclusion criteria. One thing, for sure, is that we should certainly not include any topic that a majority of scientists don't think is pseudoscience, such as evolution, which has been widely called pseudoscience among creationists (which is more like 1 million scientists and 1,000 ministers). The other case is more problematic: what if one magician does call X pseudoscience, and 1 million scientists are, best guess, evenly split among "yes, maybe and no". Chiro and acu are exactly like that. LLM, point well-stated. --Backin72 (n.b.) 20:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Chiropractic and acupuncture are manifestly NOT like that. There are not 1 million scientists "evenly split". There is a general consensus that both of these practices contain explicitly pseudoscientific aspects. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

How do you know that, SA? I said I was "best guessing". Are you guessing too or do you have an RS that there is "general consensus"? --Backin72 (n.b.) 22:12, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Excellent sources have been provided by Fyslee and QG. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I assume you mean the sources used in the article, i.e., Keating, Barrett and CSICOP? Sorry, I don't think so. They're not even from the peer-reviewed literature. It's quite an OR stretch to assume what percentage of the sci community they speak for. WP has well-established sourcing guidelines, such as WP:MEDRS. None of those qualify. I don't mean to be unduly disparaging, but I find your assertion groundless. Happy to take this to RSN if we agree on the basics of the dispute. --Backin72 (n.b.) 00:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Appeal to peer-review is a bit weird. The sources are not claiming to dispute other peer-reviewed sources. The sources instead are claiming to dispute non-peer-reviewed sources. To that end, we invoke WP:PARITY. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

(e.c.)It is not true that the list rejects "any" source that does not support the point-of-view that some thing is a pseudoscience. For example, sources that criticize creation science also criticize certain creationists who label evolution "pseudoscience". You don't see evolution appearing on this page for good reason: no reliable source says it is pseudoscience and there are enough reliable sources which say it is not pseudoscience to warrant exclusion. Contrast that to anything else found on this page: the sources that try to argue that any subject on this page is not pseudoscience or does not contain pseudoscientific aspects are not as reliable as the sources which oppose them and we marginalize (sometimes to the point of exclusion) those poor sources. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

WHO doesn't call acu pseudoscience at all, and there is no reason to think they would. They say it's effective for all sorts of stuff. WHO is a more reliable source that CSICOP and Barrett. But there is an undue weight problem if we rely on the latter sources to classify TCM/acu as pseudoscience, when superior sources do not make the claim. TCM/Acu should be filed under "topics that some sources have called PS". And the list's title should reflect that the list contains both PS's and marginal subjects. At the edges of demarcation, being "pseudoscientific" is not an either/or thing. --Backin72 (n.b.) 22:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The WHO, though a wonderful organization, does not declare acupuncture to be "not a pseudoscience" simply by not pointing out that it is a pseudoscience. The efficacy of acupuncture (or lack thereof) is really irrelevant to whether it uses pseudoscientific argumentation. The classification is not as the entire endeavor as pseudoscience, the point is that much of its rationalizing is pseudoscientific. The claims of acupuncture rely mostly on magical thinking as a means to explore efficacy. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:03, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I understand the argument about "aspects" being pseudoscience. You are wrong in your last sentence, but that's no matter, since we just go with what RS's say and weight them properly. There is still an obvious editorial divide on whether skeptic orgs are just as reliable as mainstream sci orgs for demarcation. --Backin72 (n.b.) 01:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe. But above solid medical sources seem to have been excluded in favor of sources such as quackwatch, entirely on account of the type of "he said it so it's in" argument I object to in my last post. Landed little marsdon (talk) 20:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Go ahead and join the discussion above. I do not see "solid" medical sources being excluded at all. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Well it seems that there is an argument above about WHO and NIH versus CSICOP, and in the article the reliability of the NIH source is guestioned. There's also a long discussion about whether there is any difference between the Skeptics Society and the Royal Society!Landed little marsdon (talk) 22:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, we shouldn't be having a discussion about the discussion, we should actually have the discussion. The arguments for whether WHO/NIH are really "versus" CSICOP are interesting, but seem to me to be irrelevant. The "differences" between the Royal Society and the Skeptics Society are probably not that great when it comes to pseudoscience. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to gently object to your attempt to control discussion. It's OK, IMO, to talk about assumptions we are making and whether we are asking the right questions and making the right comparisons. LLM is quite right, IMO, that it's too facile to equate the Royal Society and Skeptics Society. I don't believe they're equally reliable for demarcation at all, due to self-selection bias: the Royal Society would have someone like User:Gleng in it; the Skeptics Society will have more people of, e.g., your worldview, and will therefore lack the moderating influence of a Gleng. Self-selection bias is operative, IOW; that's my criticism of the skeptic groups. And of course they often fail, e.g., WP:MEDRS. All in all, you have not made much of a case for their reliability other than simply asserting it. --Backin72 (n.b.) 01:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC

I'd be in favor of calling this article "List of pseudosciences" if (and only if) we limit it to include only those topics which have been labelled a pseudoscience by general scientific consensus or are an obvious pseudoscience. In essence, I see no reason why the inclusion criteria of this article should not mirror WP:PSCI precisely. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 04:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd tend to prefer a more open title and list, but I certainly agree that NPOV and VER demand that they have to be consistent with each other, whichever way it tips. cheers, Backin72 (n.b.) 04:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Early archive of RfC

Would anyone object to archiving this? It hasn't gotten any outside comments in awhile, and is taking up a lot of space on an already crowded page. Normally these RfCs are left open for 30 days and then a bot auto-archives them, but they can be archived sooner if no one objects. So, anyone have a preference? --Elonka 08:12, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Since much of the content is relevant to the current discussion, how about just putting a "hat" on it? -- Fyslee (talk) 08:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Purpose of retitling

I am not proposing a "retitle just to get around WP:PSCI," as Levine2112 says above. It has to do with the purpose of Wikipedia. We are supposed to document the sum total of human knowledge, as it is found in V & RS. Right now the current title is tied to the narrow limits of PSCI, but Wikipedia is supposed to be more than that. We are only allowed to categorize a limited number of subjects on a list of "pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts." That's the title, and the title must describe the contents of the article. If the contents don't match the title, the title should be changed, or the contents be fitted to the title, which means a radical reduction of article content.

Well, the real world has plenty of opinions about what is and isn't pseudoscience, and many of those opinions are published in V & RS, and if Wikipedia is to live up to its full function, those published opinions deserve a place. This is the logical place.

I find it rather ironic that SA, QG, and Levine2112 are all agreed that a title change isn't necessary, but that only Levine2112 is abiding by policy, albeit for the wrong reason - to keep out opinions from V & RS that he doesn't like. What a circus this is! Continual discussions about content and format, which is all pointless until the title matter is settled. -- Fyslee (talk) 06:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not opposed to including the opinions of notable skeptics and skeptic societies at Wikipedia. I am just opposed to including their opinions here. Why? Because their opinions don't meet the standards set forth by WP:PSCI for characterizing a subject as pseudoscience. That said, these persons' and groups' opinions about what they feel constitutes a pseudoscience are more than welcome at each of their respective articles. That way, their opinions are documented, PSCI is complied with, and the sum total of all human knowledge is further recorded on Wikipedia.

I love that I agree with SA and QG on the retitling issue. However, I don't think it is proper for you - Fyslee - to say that I want to abide by policy for the wrong reason. And what reason is that? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 07:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, then we are somewhat agreed, except that I think this is the logical place, which is why a title change is necessary. Since none of you are willing to change the title, and it's not NPOV, and the content isn't in harmony with WP:PSCI, will you start the deletion of content here that needs to go, so the content will be in harmony with the current title? -- Fyslee (talk) 07:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I honestly would love to do that. And at the same time, I can move items which don't comply with WP:PSCI to each of their respective source's Wikipedia article (if applicable) as a statement of the source's opinion of the subject. Now I am will to do this work, but do you feel as I do? That my work will likely be reverted? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 07:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I am feeling WP:BOLD and made my first attempt at such a deletion of content. To help with the transition of the skeptical groups' and individual skeptics' opinions to each of their respective articles (if applicable), I created this page as a worksheet. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 07:45, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

And as suspected, my boldness was immediately reverted. So per WP:BRD, I am now open to discussion. Shall we dance? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 07:47, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Per WP:BRD I reverted. Please make smaller individual edits and justify them here so that consensus can be reached. Discussion of each edit first would be best, I think. Verbal chat 07:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I feel that we can remove the "Topics which have been characterized as pseudoscientific but haven't been labelled so by any scientific consensus" section en masse because that is precisely the section which does not comply with WP:PSCI. So rather than going through the entire list one by one and justifying their removal with the exact same reasoning (that their presense in this article doesn't comply with WP:PSCI because the source given doesn't assert that the concept is an obvious pseudoscience nor one which as been deemed a pseudoscience by scientific consensus) perhaps it would easier for you (or anyone else) to pick out which entries you believe should stay in this article and why its continued presence will not violate WP:PSCI. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 07:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Which part of WP:PSCI and why? I'd like to see more input on this too from other involved editors before any more deletions. Verbal chat 07:59, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd say all of WP:PSCI. It's a short piece of policy after all. :-) Specifically, per that policy, we should only be including items in this list-article entitled "List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts" (which in essence characterizes all members of said list as a pseudoscience) that are either an "Obvious pseudoscience" or "Generally considered pseudoscience". The views of a skeptic or a skeptic society does not necessarily constitute the general views of the scientific community. I too would definitely like to hear some more input from both involved and uninvolved editors. But please let's stick to WP:PSCI as this is upon what this bold plan of action hinges. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 08:09, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

You have not explained which part of PSCI and why. Anyhow, editorial discretion is not part of PSCI. QuackGuru (talk) 17:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The consensus process needs to take place. I agree with Levine2112's edits, as long as we don't change the title, but I think a title change would be best, IOW it would be best to not delete anything, and just change the title. That discussion needs to be finished. Start an RfC on the matter. I have to run. -- Fyslee (talk) 08:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

You are aware editors disagree with the title change according to your edit summary. QuackGuru (talk) 17:26, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Appreciated. Yes, perhaps an RfC is the best next step. It should be worded to address the very context of this bold action - chiefly WP:PSCI and how the inclusion of non-obvious pseudosciences and non-generally considered pseudosciences in this article seemingly does not comply with this policy. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 08:09, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

As long as we use the current title, some of the content doesn't comply with policy. We need to change the title. That would take the least effort and preserve the hard work of many editors. We just need to bring the title into line with policy. -- Fyslee (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Which content specifically do you feel doesn't comply with policy under the current title? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 16:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

If we are to abide by policy, and I definitely believe we should, any content that doesn't fit the title, and thus the WP:PSCI criteria, should be deleted. Since I don't think that is the best solution, I think we should work for a title change that will allow the current content to remain, albeit possibly with some tweaking or change in format, especially with better attribution. -- Fyslee (talk) 01:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no problem with the title and the lead is a reflection of the body. The current lead is in line with the body. QuackGuru (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Straw man. We aren't talkig about the LEAD. It does match the body, but the title still doesn't match the entire contents. Change the title and we'll be on solid ground. Right now you are the best friend of fringe editors and I'm beginning to lose any AGF feelings about you. In fact I'm beginning to wonder if you aren't a plant who is attempting to not-so-subtly disrupt this process. Judging by your actions you might just be some banned extreme fringe editor. -- Fyslee (talk) 01:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Sure there is a problem with the title. It says that the list includes pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts. However, some of the entries are not obvious pseudosciences nor are they generally considered pseudosciences. This violates WP:PSCI, part of the NPOV Wikipedia pillar. Also consider WP:LISTV which says that we should avoid creating lists based on a value judgement of people or organizations. If we are listing things which are only purported to be pseudoscience by a skeptic or a skeptic group, then we are making a values judgement. It also says that per WP:NPOV, lists should generally only represent consensus opinion. Clearly if some concept is not generally considered to be a pseudoscience, then there is no consensus that the concept should be labelled as such. So again, there is no problem with the title if we remove all of the items which are no either generally considered to be pseudoscience or are not an obvious pseudoscience. That is why it has been proposed that we remove all of the items in conflict with WP:PSCI and preserve these opinions in the articles corresponding to the authors of said opinions. Retitling doesn't seem to be a viable solution because it is only an attempt to get around WP:PSCI, but in the end policy - especially one of our pillars - will trump such an effort. So let's just save ourselve the headache of the brewing brainstorm and make this article comply with WP:NPOV by moving ahead as suggested by myself and Fyslee above. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 19:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The entries are considered or characterized as pseudosciences according to the references presented. See WP:V. There is no conflict with PSCI when you have not shown there is any conflict. The lead is the inclusion criteria. QuackGuru (talk) 19:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The conflict is all around you, and it counts! -- Fyslee (talk) 03:19, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

If a good title is suggested, then fine, but I don't see any problems with WP:NPOV or WP:PSCI with the article. Verbal chat 19:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

How do you reconcile the presence of items which are not generally considered to be a pseudoscience in a list article named "List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts" given that WP:PSCI explicitly instructs us that we should not characterize such items as pseudosciences? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 19:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

As I explained before, researchers and not critics. This is not alleged when it is referenced. QuackGuru (talk) 20:53, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree that either title change (preferred option) or mass deletion of all non scientifically sourced entries is essential. As things stand the title doesn't match the content. Landed little marsdon (talk) 20:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Levine2112 does not agree with you. He does not want the title changed. QuackGuru (talk) 20:53, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Personally I don't think that there is a possible title change which will solve our policy dilemma. I certainly haven't read any suggested title changes which solve the issue. That's why I support mass deletion of all non scientifically sourced entries - the same solution which Landed little marson and Fyslee support (second to their preferred solution of title change). I am certainly open to changing my mind if a title change is presented which somehow satisfies the current policy issue.

I still have this question for anyone who thinks that the current article doesn't have a policy issue: How do you reconcile the presence of items which are not generally considered to be a pseudoscience in a list article named "List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts" given that WP:PSCI explicitly instructs us that we should not characterize such items as pseudosciences? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I have previously suggested List of topics referred to as pseudoscientific, and it has received support from several editors. That title makes it clear that WE as editors are not categorizing the content as PS. It is the sources who do so, which satisfies NPOV, WP:PSCI, and sourcing requirements. WP:PSCI governs editing, not sources. It tells US as editors that WE must not categorize some of the items currently in the list as PS, but if we change the title, we are simply including V & RS from the real world, which will make the list conform more fully to Wikipedia's goal of documenting all human knowledge that is published in V & RS. That's what I'd like to see. A list with a very narrow focus has limited usefulness. -- Fyslee (talk) 01:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Because the article correctly observes WP:PSCI by characterising PS correctly. The title isn't a problem, and the text is clear. Verbal chat 21:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Can you please expand your answer? I am unclear how "the article correctly observes WP:PSCI by characterising PS correctly." What does "characterising PS correctly" mean? How does the article characterize pseudoscience correctly? Is it characterized incorrectly somewhere else in Wikipedia? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The text of the article observes WP:PSCI, WP:NPOV, and WP:V. It is clear in the article what the sources and what parts of larger domains are charaterised as PS. If there is any part that isn't in a correct section or is mischaraterising the sources, then bring it up in a new section for discussion. You should probably read WP:BLP too, but I think you've been pointed to that already. Verbal chat 21:35, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I myself am often guitly of writing unclearly, so please take this with a grain of salt, but I am really unsure of what you are saying above. What I am saying is that PSCI tells us that items which are not generally considered to be a pseudoscience should not be characterized as such. Yet, in this list called "List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts", we have many entries included that are not generally considered to be a pseudoscience. This creates PSCI problem which can only be fixed by removing the offending content or by changing the title. I personally don't think that there is a title which can rightly satisfy the PSCI and still keep the entries that aren't generally considered pseudoscience. Anyhow, if you can make it plainly obvious to us how you are reconciling the presence of items which are not generally considered to be a pseudoscience in a list article named "List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts" given that WP:PSCI explicitly instructs us that we should not characterize such items as pseudosciences, I would greatly appreciate it. Sorry if I am being dense here, but I really don't understand your response to this question above. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

To QG, Levine agrees that as things stand the title doesn't match the content, and s/he agrees with (at least) one of the possible solutions; i.e. deletion of the problematic entries which lack sound enough sources to be included in a list of pseudoscience as opposed to a list of alleged pseudoscience. BTW QG, it's pretty bad form to just ignore the arguments of about five editors here and act as if we don't exist as you did when you removed the npov disputed tag. I would be grateful for some explanation of why you chose to simply disregard our comments in that way.Landed little marsdon (talk) 21:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

LLM, you'll just have to get used to that. That's his usual MO. Repeat himself and ignore intervening comments, or keep switching sides. -- Fyslee (talk) 01:58, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The proposal of List of topics referred to as pseudoscientific is a gross violation of WP:ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 03:29, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we should keep the current title but if there ever was a decision to change the title it could be something like: List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific aspects. QuackGuru (talk) 06:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

You have suggested that one before without getting any reaction, probably because it is not significantly different than the existing title, and it won't solve the problems our current title creates. This suggestion demonstrates the truth of an old adage: "There must be change to make an improvement, but there can be lots of change without improvement." This sounds like change for the sake of change, but it won't solve our problems, nor will it stop the edit warring and total waste of time discussing content and format. They are determined by the title, which must harmonize with the content without violating any policies or the ArbCom decision. -- Fyslee (talk) 06:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific characteristics is another option. QuackGuru (talk) 07:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The current situation

Here's the current situation:

1. The title is a characterization/categorization of the contents of the list, and it must abide by NPOV. Because of WP:PSCI, it must also match content in an even more strict manner, but it doesn't abide by either with this content.
2. With the current title, it is a violation of NPOV and WP:PSCI to include some of the current content. This title creates very narrow inclusion criteria, similar to WP:PSCI.
3. With a new title that creates broader inclusion criteria, all the current content can stay. Just source and attribute it properly.

When replying, please refer to the items by number. -- Fyslee (talk) 02:07, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with 1 and 2, but I don't think that's important. We can change the title, and perhaps if we list them out below, and allow people to add new suggestions, we can discuss them. My worry with relaxing the title is that the criteria in the article will be relaxed and then the page will be swamped with "X once called the photoelectric effect PS" and "QM is regarded PS by Y". If this concern can be addressed then I'll support a change, or if I'm mistaken about the criteria becoming too broad then please convince me! I'm not trying to be disruptive in my comments, I'm worried about this list becoming useless and sidelined - the content now is pretty rock solid, and I would like a title and criteria that keep it this way. Thanks, Verbal chat 10:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Title's must be NPOV and describe the contents of the article or list. I don't see how you can disagree with that. The current title is so narrow that it doesn't allow inclusion or mention of subjects mentioned in many V & RS that fall outside of the very narrow limits set by WP:PSCI. Our job and PSCI don't allow us to categorize any but a very few items as PS (narrow inclusion criteria), but Wikipedia's job is to document the real world discussion of this subject (broad inclusion criteria). We can make this list (using the current content) fulfill the larger goal by letting the sources speak and let the readers make up their own minds.

I can understand your concerns about relaxing inclusion criteria, but what I'm suggesting would not change the current inclusion criteria as described in the LEAD and body of the article. If we were to start getting additions that are POINT violations (which has happened in the past), we can deal with them. I have addressed that situation elsewhere on this page, or in the archives.

As to title suggestions, the one which has garnered the most support has been suggested several times, so you have seen it:

• List of topics referred to as pseudoscientific. Such a title is NPOV, has no categorization problems, and justifies keeping the current content.

With this title change, we can proceed to discuss content and formatting in an effective manner. Right now there is simply alot of stonewalling going on, and I'd hate to see three more or less skeptical editors get blocked or topic banned, but I'm going to support that if necessary. Then the supporters of quackery, pseudoscience and fringe ideas are going to win, simply because you don't show up to play the game. -- Fyslee (talk) 15:16, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I prefer the suggestion of "List of pseudosciences and questionable scientific concepts" given below, what do you think to that? If pushed I could support your title (I'm really not trying to be difficult) so long as the criteria are kept as they are in the body, like you say. Should there be an RfC or just a vote for a few suggested titles? Verbal chat 16:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I know you aren't "trying to be difficult". It's more likely that I haven't made myself clear, since both you and QG have made alternate suggestions that don't solve the root of the problem. This isn't a matter of what nice-sounding wording to choose, but to choose specific wording that makes it possible for the current content to stay. We are including concepts mentioned in V & RS that might not qualify as unquestioned PS, according to the WP:PSCI ruling. You and I and SA might well agree that the current content lists clearly PS crap, but that's our opinion (right as it is ;-). Unless we can satisfy the demands of the PSCI criteria, WE can't identify that part of the content by using a title that identifies ALL the content as unquestioned PS. We have chosen the title, therefore WE are categorizing the content, and we mustn't do that.

We need a title that is worded so as to allow the many notable opinions expressed in V & RS. That's why the words "referred to as" are included. That allows the currently included quotes and items that are "referred to as" PS by V & RS to remain. This fulfills Wikipedia's greater vision of documenting the real world and all human knowledge. Without such wording we haven't solved the problem. We keep the current content and LEAD as is. Right now an AfD could cost this list its life in toto. As long as we are discussing this issue, such an AfD could legitimately be staved off as a bad faith attempt, but it can't be staved off forever. Right now we have this huge elephant in the corner that is being ignored by some editors. The title clearly identifies ALL of the content as absolute and unquestioned "pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts." That's a very narrow inclusion criteria, with a great reduction in content as a result. Lots of content will be lost, and I'd be forced to support such deletions, much as I'd hate to do so. You and I might agree that the current content is absolute PS BS, but Wikipedia's job is not to take sides in the issue. Let the sources speak and let the readers decide. It will work out fine. It can't be a worse situation than we have now. By having NPOV, PSCI, and V & RS behind us, we can justify the current content. Right now NPOV and PSCI are against us, and the PS and fringe pushers have those strong cards in their hands. They can easily justify removal of their favorite PS delusions from the list.

If we can agree that a title change is necessary, I think an RfC as to which title would be fine.

I don't buy SA's argument below, as it's a non-issue. He's just stonewalling and hastening his demise here by this action. One more brick of evidence against him. (Please choose your allies carefully.) We can only include sourced content, which obviously answers the question of "By whom". -- Fyslee (talk) 04:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I totally object to the suggestion that we name the page "List of topics referred to as pseudoscientific" simply because the reader's first question will be to ask, "By whom?" A good title should not make a reader ask this question. The alternative is List of topics referred to as pseudoscientific by scientific and skeptical sources which at least does not suffer from that problem. That title, however, appears to be unnecessarily cumbersome to me. The attribution does not need to be in the title of the list, IMHO. We can simply put it in the lead. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Answered above. -- Fyslee (talk) 04:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

A modest suggestion

There is a lot of heat about this list. Personally I think this list should not exist and we leave it to separate articles and a category, but deletion has been proposed twice and was clearly not supported by consensus. The lead:-

"This is a list of fields of endeavor and concepts regarded or characterized as pseudoscientific by organizations within the international scientific community, by notable skeptical organizations, or by notable academics or researchers. The existence of such expressed opinions suffices for inclusion in this list, and therefore inclusion does not necessarily indicate that any given entry is in fact pseudoscience."

is quite clear and I do not think it is a breach of any policy or guideline. So let us take it seriously and for each entry in the list, clearly state which scientific organization, skeptical organization or academic has characterized the item as pseudoscientific. We could add a phrase like "This item was characterized by XX (and others) as pseudoscientific" followed by a reference. The items should not however be divided into sections on scientific organizations, skeptical organizations or academics, but listed alphabetically to avoid any POV or undue weight. We should not be battling here. We are just listing topics that have been labeled as pseudoscientific. It really does not matter who has so labeled the item as long as the labeling is notable; that is "who labeled it?" and "who noticed the labelling?". --Bduke (Discussion) 21:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

While WP:FRINGE#Particular attribution needs to be carefully avoided, but we can accommodate some of this idea, I think. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes I agree, if any particular entry is problematic please bring it up here for discussion. Verbal chat 21:59, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I asked this above, but perhaps it is better to also ask it here: How do you reconcile the presence of items which are not generally considered to be a pseudoscience in a list article named "List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts" given that WP:PSCI explicitly instructs us that we should not characterize such items as pseudosciences? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:55, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Because the name a good one for the article, and WP:PSCI concerns are irrelevant as the article text is clear and characterises things appropriately. As I said above. Please keep discussion to one thread. Verbal chat

I disagree that the title of the article is a "good one" since it creates a clear WP:PSCI violation by labelling items that are not generally considered pseudoscience as pseudoscience. I know that we attempt to remedy this violation with our lead text, but that really only puts a bandaid on a wound. And the suggestion about about proper attribution just places a bunch more tiny bandaids throughout the article. Wouldn't it be better to not have the wound (i.e. the policy violation) at all? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:09, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

If you have particular concerns about individual entries, please discuss them. The general discussion about the philosophy behind this article seems to be moribund. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Because I think we can strike all of the offending items wholesale. And since the argument for removing them will be exactly the same - The source given doesn't support that the item is generally considered a pseudoscience. Therefore, per WP:PSCI we should remove the item from this list. - why not just take care of the entire problem in one shot? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Your taking policy out of context. QuackGuru (talk) 22:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

And how am I doing that, pray tell? Please be specific. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:24, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Generally considered a pseudoscience is not the inclusion crieteria for this article. PSCI does not require an entry to be generally considered a pseudoscience to be on a list. QuackGuru (talk) 22:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

NPOV applies to all articles. PSCI certainly applies to this article. PSCI is the criteria for any article dealing with pseudoscience. A pillar of Wikipedia trumps any cleverly worded inclusion criteria we can invent in an attempt to circumvent said pillar. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

We are complying with said policy. Do you approve of the changes to the lead. QuackGuru (talk) 00:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

No. It is just a cleverly worded attempt to skirt around the requirements of WP:PSCI. Imagine including information about how Larry Sanger is a pederast in his respective Wikipedia article, but then rewriting the lead to say that not everything in the article is necessarily a fact. My guess is that you would still be in violation of BLP, even though you attempted to skirt around it with a cleverly written lead. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 01:58, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

You're forgetting that properly sourced negative information is not a BLP violation. It's a matter of sourcing. If properly sourced, there is no skirting around any policies. -- Fyslee (talk) 03:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Bduke makes a vital point when he says "we are just listing things that have been labeled as pseudoscientific". No! According to the title we are listing things which are in actual fact pseudosciences. This difference is key, and it is precisely the presentation of opinion in an article titled as if no entry was opinion that is the cause of all the problems. The fact that entries may only be opinion needs to be reflected in the title in some way. This or else the poorly sourced entries need to go.Landed little marsdon (talk) 22:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Precisely. Well stated! :-) -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:25, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Bduke's and also LLM's comment, except that we shouldn't get sidetracked by a discussion of the quality of the sources, since that is often based on editorial POV. We need to get the title to match the fact that "we are just listing things that have been labeled as pseudoscientific". Right now the title means we are "categorizing" all the content as PS, and that means we are in violation of WP:PSCI. A better title will solve that problem. -- Fyslee (talk) 02:18, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with the current title but List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific aspects is a consideration. QuackGuru (talk) 02:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Adding attribution to the title is weasel wording. Sourced text is sourced. Claiming the sourced text is poorly sourced is incorrect when it meets WP:V policy. QuackGuru (talk) 22:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I would add that it is the poor quality of the sources in some cases that means that the title needs to change. They are simply not reliable enough to go into an article with such a definitive title. Consider how the "List of Communists" would be misleading if many of the entries were sourced solely to one Joe McCarthy. All the caveats in the world could be added to the lead of that article but still the title would be unacceptable. Landed little marsdon (talk) 22:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The title of an article does not make a source unreliable. QuackGuru (talk) 22:58, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Nothing I said entailed that it did. I said the poor quality of many of the sources necessitates a change of title, in that the title promises something that many of the sources cannot deliver. That this is so is amply demonstrated by the long list of disclaimers in the lead.Landed little marsdon (talk) 23:08, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

You wrote: "I would add that it is the poor quality of the sources in some cases that means that the title needs to change."

No, we don't need to change the title. The sources comply with WP:V. QuackGuru (talk) 00:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

QG, just because a reliable source that complies with WP:V says something does not mean we have to present the view as fact either explicitly or implicitly. Given that the PS status of some entries is dubious, as shown by the presence of the disclaimers, the title is far too definitive and therefore implicitly supports the idea that such views are true. The title therefore needs to be changed so that the list no longer does this. I still haven't seen this point addressed let alone answered. Landed little marsdon (talk) 01:23, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

WP does not deal in truth. It reports what others say. We are not in the business of deciding whether something is pseudoscience. We are just reporting on what others say is pseudoscience, provided their statement is notable. --Bduke (Discussion) 01:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Would you be happy with an article entitled "List of Communists" that contained numerous entries sourced only to Joe McCarthy? Landed little marsdon (talk) 01:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

How about a "List of Sinners" and sources are only from the Catholic Church? But wait, we can fix it by changing the title! How about a "List of people whom some notable clergymen say are sinners"? My guess is that we would still have BLP violatons in such an article. In the same way, we would still have PSCI problems in this article no matter what we title it. We have to change content to be aligned with policy; not the title to attempt to skirt around policy. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 01:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Grrh! I make a modest suggestion to calm things down and within seconds you are at each others throats again. Is it any wonder that you are driving good editors away from WP. WP:PSCI uses the phrase "but generally should not be so characterized". This is just a list and the lead makes it very clear what is to be included. I do not think the actual words of the title matter and I think that phrase with "generally" in it is more likely to apply to a list than a category or an article. Pseudoscience is always controversial. We have to make some compromises, so please stop fighting and reach a compromise consensus. --Bduke (Discussion) 00:45, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

There already was a compromise. I and other editors made improvements to the lead. The new lead is the compromise. QuackGuru (talk) 00:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Well it is not working unless people agree to the title and how the lead translates in how the content is organized. --Bduke (Discussion) 01:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

There were a few new entries added to this list. Whenever the list improves a few editors attempt to delete the entries or try to rewrite the article. Read this edit summary: SA, QG, and Levine2112 are all agreed. Most editors agree with the current title. QuackGuru (talk) 02:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Bduke, your suggestion is okay except it doesn't address the inherit WP:PSCI problem that the title presents. Clear attribution is certainly a tad bit better than what we have now, but as I said, it only serves as mini-bandaid for a gaping, festering wound. Landed little marson has said best. This list has far too definitive of a title to contain items which have only been called pseudoscience some skeptic or skeptic group. PSCI prohibits us from doing this and I don't think that this qualifies for one of the times when it is "generally" okay to characterize (or rather mis-characterize) items. Furthermore, that phrasing comes from the section on "Questionable science". That would mean that we would have to go through and show that each of the entries in this list that are only supported by skeptic sources are actually "questionable sciences" and not "alternative theoretical formulations" or something else. That doesn't seem very realistic and will probably spurn yet another cycle of endless debates. So here are the two compromises: 1) We come up with a title to this article which doesn't assert that the items contained within are definitively pseudoscience or 2) We excise any entry which isn't generally considered pseudoscience; and we can preserve what we excise as statements of the skeptical source's opinion of the subject in the skeptical source's corresponding Wikipedia article (when applicable). Those are currently the only two conceivable compromises (even though I personally don't think #1 is possible). -- Levine2112 ^discuss 01:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I obviously support number 1, and I think it can work. We just need to give it a try, because it totally changes the ground rules that govern the list. Then the rules that govern will be V & RS, NPOV, and for a limited number of items WP:PSCI will apply. Right now we are excluding many V & RS that deal with the subject. -- Fyslee (talk) 02:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I personally don't think that such a title is possible, but I am always willing to read suggestions with a most open mind and readily be in the position of standing corrected. So if you want to present any suggested titles, please do so. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 02:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Already done above: List of topics referred to as pseudoscientific. Such a title has no categorization problems. -- Fyslee (talk) 03:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

"Questionable science" is for alleged pseudoscience. When is it referenced it is not an allegation. We are simply reporting what the sources are saying. We can include entries that are not generally considered pseudoscience. Editorial discretion is not standard Wikipedia policy. We should comply with PSCI. When we comply with PSCI we can include pseudosciences that are not generally pseudosciences. "Generally considered pseudosciences" is for categorizing as pseudoscience. A list is not a category. See WP:PSCI. QuackGuru (talk) 02:03, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

An allegation is an allegation, regardless of whether it is sourced or not. Just because many skeptics believe the allegation to be true is irrelevant here. We want to include such allegations from V & RS, since they are part of the real world we are documenting. Let readers make up their own minds as to the truthfulness of the allegations. -- Fyslee (talk) 02:40, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• "Questionable science" is for alleged pseudoscience. True.

• When is it referenced it is not an allegation. False. It is a referenced allegation.

• We are simply reporting what the sources are saying. True.

• We can include entries that are not generally considered pseudoscience. False. That causes a PSCI violation.

• Editorial discretion is not standard Wikipedia policy. False. Editors are people, not robots. Of course we are allowed to exercise editorial discretion, provided that we comply with policies and guidelines.

• We should comply with PSCI. True.

• When we comply with PSCI we can include pseudosciences that are not generally pseudosciences. False. This is a paradoxical statement. It's like saying, "When we comply with WP:CIVIL we can call people assholes." You can't call someone an asshole and still comply with CIVIL, just like you can't call non-generally considered pseudoscience a pseudoscience and still comply with PSCI.

• "Generally considered pseudosciences" is for categorizing as pseudoscience. True. But it is also for including information characterizing an item as a pseudoscience or to that effect. Read the whole policy please.

• A list is not a category. True. But a list does categorize items. I think you are confusion the Wikipedia term category with the English word "categorize".

-- Levine2112 ^discuss 02:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you are taking PSCI out of context and applying your own policy. Editorial discretion is not standard Wikipedia policy. QuackGuru (talk) 02:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

when an allegation is referenced it becomes a referenced allegation, and maybe even a verifiable and reliably sourced allegation, but it doesn't stop being an allegation just because it is referenced. The mere fact of it being referenced does not entitle us to present the content of the allegation as true in any way shape or form. At last the source of our disagreement is clear to me. Landed little marsdon (talk) 02:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

According to what policy sourced text is an allegation. QuackGuru (talk) 02:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Allegation or opinion, it makes no difference. We include well-sourced allegations and opinions all the time. In fact that's what we do here. When it's controversial, we also attribute it. Standard practice. -- Fyslee (talk) 03:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

An allegation is not an opinion. When it is controversial to an editor we don't attribute it. When there is no serious disagreement among reliable sources we assert it as fact. An opinion is treated as fact when no serious disagreement exists. See WP:ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 03:23, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

You've got it. Only a limited number of subjects that fit the PSCI criteria for PS can be categorized or labelled as PS by us without attribution. We can call them such anywhere at Wikipedia. The other items must be handled with care. -- Fyslee (talk) 02:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

A list is not the same as PS category. QuackGuru (talk) 02:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Nonsensical comment. Makes no sense. -- Fyslee (talk) 03:13, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

What QG is trying to say, I think, is that we should not try to make WP:PSCI the entire and sole basis for inclusion criteria on this list. Arbcom does not make content decisions (even when it does make content decisions). Instead, we should try to come to an editorial agreement. I think that the real issue should be one of sourcing, and, to bring the discussion back around, Bduke's suggestion in this regard is admirable. We do not need to worry about inclusion criteria if we are just careful enough with sourcing and discuss questionable list items as they come up individually. Trying to do a wholesale exclusion program is simply a non-starter for me, and I think for many of the others commenting on this list. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:39, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Potential ArbCom sanctions

Per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience, "Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict (defined as articles which relate to pseudoscience, broadly interpreted) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project.

Right now, this page is not under discretionary sanctions, but is under indefinite protection, because of the edit-warring and other disputes here.

As an administrator, I've been watching the discussions and the editing here for awhile, trying to determine what kind of discretionary sanctions might have the best chance at helping the discussions here to be more productive, so that we can get protection lifted and allow normal editing to resume. Before placing any sanctions though, I wanted to get input from the editors on this page, to see if anyone has any creative ideas for what might help. Potential options that I've been kicking around so far:

1. Stay hands off, hope that the editors here are able to work things out on their own, and only step in if things start spiralling out of control.
2. Strongly encourage everyone to follow Wikipedia:Dispute resolution procedures, such as to seek mediation
3. Place a revert restriction on the article, such as 1RR (one revert per editor per day/week) or 0RR (no reverts except for vandalism), which might help encourage everyone to try and find a compromise position on the article
4. Removing potential "stonewalling" editors from the talkpage for a certain amount of time, to see if that would help the other editors who are capable of working towards compromise, to try and hammer something out
5. Removing any single-purpose editors from the mix. Pretty much everyone here is an established editor, but a few of the editors here have become very single-minded on this one topic for quite some time. So a potential restriction could be placed that would only allow those editors who are working here and on other things as well (at least a 50-50 split) to be allowed to have a voice in the discussions, and any "single-minded" editors would be banned from the talkpage until they'd worked on some other articles for awhile, in order to try and regain some perspective.
6. (something else?) I'm open to suggestions.

Comments? --Elonka 05:58, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Settle retitling issue first. I see any continued discussion of content or format as a waste of time until we have reached a decision about retitling this list. Can we start there and focus on that issue alone? Once that is settled, other matters will have a chance of not being futile effort that just runs in circles.

I contend that the current title is not in harmony with the content of the article, as it effectively labels and categorizes the content as actual pseudoscience, which violates WP:PSCI. While it may be that, we as editors (we're the ones who choose the title) are not allowed to label or categorize some of the current content as PS because of the WP:PSCI ruling. The title isn't NPOV either. We need a title that will allow the current content to remain without violating any rules.

I have previously suggested List of topics referred to as pseudoscientific, and it has received support from several editors. That title makes it clear that WE as editors are not categorizing the content as PS. It is the sources who do so, which satisfies NPOV, WP:PSCI, and sourcing requirements. WP:PSCI governs editing, not sources. It tells US as editors that WE must not categorize some of the items currently in the list as PS, but if we change the title, we are simply including V & RS from the real world, which will make the list conform more fully to Wikipedia's goal of documenting all human knowledge that is published in V & RS. That's what I'd like to see. This list has such a very narrow focus that it has limited usefulness. Its usefulness would be much greater if it covered the whole topic as discussed in V & RS. ---- Fyslee (talk) 06:34, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I would ask an uninvolved administrator took interest, rather than one who has personal disputes with several involved editors and refers to them as a "tag team". I think this problem is due to a misreading of WP:PSCI and that if a good title is suggested then it can be changed. Verbal chat 07:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Elonka is an "involved admin" and has no standing here. I won't participate in her one-person ruling without the participation of an admin whom we can trust to be fair. She has blocked two editors, capriciously, both overturned immediately, starting with this falsely based statement. I'm requesting other help on the matter. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 16:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not involved here, as I have no preference on the article content, and have no personal conflict with any of the editors here: All of my actions have been as an administrator working with standard ArbCom enforcement issues. Just because an administrator imposes sanctions on someone, doesn't make them "involved" and incapable of continuing to act as an as administrator. Also, Orangemarlin, what are you talking about, with these blocks? I am unware of making any blocks related to this article, and of the other blocks I've made, I'm unaware of any that have been overturned. So could you please provide some details? Thanks, --Elonka 17:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe you are involved and I would view your taking any AE steps as an abuse of administrator tools. If you feel these steps are necessary, which I also don't, then ask someone else to do it. This is a distraction from the issue, and you will become the issue if you take AE steps - which will be disruptive. Please don't do this. Verbal chat 17:29, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what OrangeMarlin is complaining about. He's saying that he won't participate in moving forward here if Elonka "presides" over this article. Yet his own involvement in this article in the past year or so has essentially been fostering edit wars through tag team, blind reverts with absolutely no meaningful discussion on this page. (Just check the histories of the article and the discussion page and you will see that my observation is not unfounded whatsoever.) He's almost more uninvolved with this article than Elonka! It seems to me that he likes following Elonka around just to bait her and that seems to be what he is doing here. I'd say that given OrangeMarlin's obsession with Elonka that he is the one who shouldn't be participating here, but certainly not the other way around. Personally, I see no problem with Elonka bringing forth some peacekeeping restrictions here, even though I also believe that everyone here (except for perhaps one) has been doing a good job maintaining a civil level of discussion. We may have reached an impasse, but I certainly don't see anything getting too out of hand (other than the edit warring which the indef article lock has solved for the time being). I also think that we may be close to amicable compromise. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 17:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

As one of the most productive anti-pseudoscience editors around here, calling me anything but "you're a good faith editor" is ridiculous. Elonka throws around that pseudoscience arbcomm thing like its a tool to keep NPOV out of an article--no one else uses it. And given her treatment of User:ScienceApologist (yeah, you and SA need to get over it) and User:NJGW, I don't think she is uninvolved. And finally Levine, I do not follow Elonka around (however, the reverse is certainly not true). I do not edit her personal article. I do not contribute to her user talk page. I did not comment on her remarks regarding User:FT2, except where brought up by others, who also seem to share my feelings on this situation. I suggest you retract that bullshit personal attack immediately. Also, I believe that Elonka is abusing the arbcom ruling far beyond what has been actually stated. Maybe the new Arbcom, without FT2, will be able to clear up what powers Elonka, or any other admin, does or does not have with regards to the article. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The fact remain that you have had no meaningful participation in the article or on its discussion page. All one has to do is check the histories. Yet, once Elonka steps in, you show up to criticize her and say that you won't participate if she presides here. It is plainly obvious how you feel about her as an admin and an editor. All one has to do is read your user page. I'm asking you nicely not to bring your personal beef with Elonka to an article and discussion page which you are essentially uninvolved in. Thanks for the consideration. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 18:19, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like it might help, and certainly the article is currently uneditable in more ways than one. The correlation of editors here with Quackwatch and Chiropractic is pretty close to one - have similar restrictions worked over there? I sympathize with the above editors' reservations, but would like to point out that as of yet nobody else has volunteered to try to get this article restarted. - Eldereft (cont.) 18:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd also be greatly concerned about Elonka's "uninvolved" status here given this particular admin's history with a number of the involved parties. A truely uninvolved admin would be much preferable, and would gain far broader support from involved editors. Jefffire (talk) 18:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Folks, this is not about me (Elonka), this is about the article, so let's please stay focused. The topic of discussion is, "Might discretionary sanctions help this article?" These sanctions can be imposed by any uninvolved administrator. At the moment, I'm here, but any other administrator who wishes to help out here is welcome to do so. So far the only one who has, is SoWhy (talk · contribs), who just responded to Orangemarlin's request and placed indefinite protection on the article, without any further participation. Speaking for myself, I don't like indefinite protection, because it "throws the baby out with the bathwater" and prevents all edits, not just the warring ones. So I feel it would be preferable to lift protection, but do so in a limited fashion, with safeguards to keep the edit wars from just immediately starting up again. I could just make a decision such as "1RR" or choose to ban a few editors from the article on my own say-so, but I'm not doing that, I'm taking the time to actually ask if anyone here has any preference. When it comes right down to it though, whether the sanctions are placed by me or by some other administrator doesn't matter to me: What's important is stabilizing the article and trying to find a way through the dispute.

Getting back to the original question: Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not discretionary sanctions might help here (from any admin)? Or is everyone here confident that you'll be able to work things out on your own, without administrator assistance? --Elonka 18:48, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Progress is being made without "discretionary sanctions" so I don't think it is currently required. However, by you suggesting these sanctions and suggesting being in charge of them yourself you are making yourself the focus of the discussion, and if you went ahead that would probably overwhelm the talk page. Your involved status, while acting as some kind of judge on this article and talk page, would therefore be disruptive and detrimental to the project, and an abuse of admin tools. Other countless uninvolved admins would not cause the drama you undoubtedly would. Verbal chat 19:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

What sometimes happens in these kinds of fights: the referee gets beaten up, then the house security team is overwhelmed, the cops can't handle it, and calling the National Guard is to no avail because they're all on duty in Iraq right now-- maybe a UN peacekeeping force?. Good luck. ... Kenosis (talk) 19:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

<ri> At present there seems to be room to find a constructive way forward, and I've not noticed any warnings being handed out. If warnings are posted to any editors, it would be helpful if the admin doing so pointed that out on this page. Both Elonka and, given my comments below, myself are rather too involved in the area to be making any blocks, if conditions do deteriorate to the point of warnings being issued and ignored, a report to ANI for an outside admin to take action would be appropriate. . . dave souza, talk 20:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah, your name is currently on the list of uninvolved admins below, but if you would like to remove it, that's fine. For myself, I still have uninvolved status. Administrators who have already engaged in other ArbCom enforcement in a topic area, are not prohibited from continuing to engage in such enforcement. See WP:UNINVOLVED. As for the question about warnings, yes, some have been issued. Some warnings have been heeded, others just get deleted about as fast as they're posted.  ;) We could potentially setup an "admin log" page such as was done at Talk:Chiropractic/Admin log, though that might be overkill at this point. --Elonka 21:22, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah, you've added my name to the list under "uninvolved admins who wish to help manage the dispute ". The page is on my watchlist, and I'm willing to help to resolve the dispute in discussions, but as stated above I've no intention of using the tools, and given past disputes it's my opinion that you'd be well advised to ask an admin without your degree of personal involvement to carry out any actions if it reaches that stage. This procedure that you've initiated seems like overkill at this point and if anything is distracting attention from finding agreement on a way forward, but if you've diffs showing otherwise I'd be interested. Thanks, ndave souza, talk 22:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

it's quite obvious that uninvoled admins are what is neeeded (as Dave obliquely notes). Both Verbal and Kenosis raise valid points as well. It should also be noted that admin ≠ Geheimewikipolizei Amt, but rather an admin is to guide the process forward, ans sanctions would best be left as a matter of last resort, and not up to the previously univolved admin who is guiding the process. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 20:23, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Potential retitle

Given that the above is tl;dr, has anyone considered List of pseudosciences and questionable scientific concepts which would allow inclusion, and clear marking as suggested above, of "Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience" as defined by WP:PSCI. Obviously the list will still seem biased to some, for starters it has no mention of storkism :-/ . dave souza, talk 14:55, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

This is actually a title I could live with, so long as the criteria of the current article are kept (see my reasoning above). Thanks, and great suggestion, Verbal chat 15:04, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, "questionable" should be an adverb in which case the title would be List of pseudosciences and questionably scientific concepts. I'm intrigued, but not sold. I'm not sure what to make of "questionably scientific concepts". What is that supposed to mean? It sounds to me like "this subject is scientific, but it's questionably so" with emphasis on the idea that the subject is "scientific". That to me is a problematic connotation that I would like to avoid. Let's keep brainstorming, though. I like the sentiment from where this suggestion came. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:43, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I am willing to entertain this suggestion too. My first thought is that there must be a brightline division in the article so that it is clear to the reader which is the list of pseudosciences and which is the list of questionable scientific concepts. My second thought is that it may be hard to determine what exactly constitutes a "questionable scientific concept". I am not sure that this is a term readily used outside of Wikipedia. That said, ArbCom gave us a pretty decent definition. Essentially we are looking for concepts which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, but it is generally not considered so by the scientific community. And my third thought is: Why not just create two articles? One would be a "List of Pseudosciences" and the other a "List of Questionable Scientific Concepts". Or something to that effect. Each list would contain items based on the definitional criteria laid out for us in WP:PSCI. Seems simple enough, no? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 18:04, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I could live with this if necessary (absent Levine2112's novel interpretation), but I still think that Snalwibma said it best above (I made similar but less succinct points in the recent request to revisit arb.) - It is a core principle of Wikipedia that it is a tertiary source that relies on reliable external sources, and therefore "according to reliable sources" is implicit in any WP title. I would also not edit war over qualifying the title to include referred (purported and putative have more problems; described might be ok), though I find it awkward and a bit silly. Sorry, Fyslee - you make good points and are definitely trying to help, but that is how I see it. Both of these proposals carry the risk of giving the article a subtext of sources say, *wink*wink*, but we really mean that you should take this seriously, but so long as the entries themselves give neutral and properly weighted and contextualized descriptions, I do not think we would be wandering too far from the purpose of the encyclopedia. Still, the stylistically cleaner title without explicit qualification seems best. - Eldereft (cont.) 18:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Eldereft, how do you reconcile the presence of items which are not generally considered to be a pseudoscience in a list article named "List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts" given that WP:PSCI explicitly instructs us that we should not characterize such items as pseudosciences? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 19:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

You asked this question before and I already explained we are not violating that policy. QuackGuru (talk) 19:24, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

List of pseudosciences and characterized pseudoscientific concepts. QuackGuru (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

We could just stick according to reliable sources on the end? I still like Dave's suggestion too. Verbal chat 19:13, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I am going to blow everyone's minds and yet again agree with ScienceApologist. according to reliable sources should be implied in every article on Wikipedia as WP:RS is (or at least should be) a non-negotiable standard for inclusion in any article. That said, QuackGuru's suggestion of "List of pseudosciences and characterized pseudoscientific concepts" only works if there is a bright line division in the list that distinguished which ones are pseudoscience (presumably by scientific consensus) and which ones are just characterized as pseudoscience by some but certainly not by any scientific consensus. Otherwise, imagine an article entitled "List of child molestors and characterized child molesters" that didn't draw such a bright line distinction between the two categories in the article title. You'd have BLP issues up the yin-yang for sure, no? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 02:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I hate Wikipedia-referential titles/content. Of COURSE it's "according to reliable sources", but that shouldn't be in the title. Would we want to say "A neutral, verifiable list of pseudosciences according to reliable sources judged by editorial consensus"? I don't think so. Please don't let our discussions about how to write according to Wikipedia rules bleed into article content. Someone reading this page should not have to be aware of Wikipedia policies, guidelines, and arbcom rulings in order to understand our peculiar choice of terminology. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:28, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree with the grammatical concerns, I did think of questionably scientific topics but thought it best to keep close to the WP:PSCI definition which is headed "Questionable science" – no doubt a better variant can be found. Perhaps List of pseudosciences and concepts of questionable scientific validity. The idea that there's a bright line is dubious and in my opinion there's a continuum, which is why one article is appropriate. Some topics are the subject of genuine scientific research at the same time as involving pseudoscientific claims to a greater or lesser extent. So, we can subdivide each section using the PSCI criteria with sources, but be prepared to move topics if new sources become available. . dave souza, talk 19:34, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I would prefer that we try to stay far away from the WP:PSCI definition which is not meant to be used in the way people have been proposing at this page. In fact, I'm willing to go as far as to ask arbcom to vacate the decision since people seem to be so obsessed with it. It's a good guidepost, but it certainly isn't the voice of the gods. Arbcom did not magically solve the demarcation problem by a majority vote. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Appreciate your concerns, my intention would be that the definition would form a basis for including topics in the list and as a way of determining areas where the overwhelming scientific consensus is that they're pure pseudoscience, and mixed areas where there's genuine scientific research but inadequate validation and use by some proponents in a more or less pseudoscientific way. If the title gives that leeway, we can include all in a nuanced way instead of constraining the article to blatant pseudoscience. . dave souza, talk 20:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Not sure we can ever fully solve this problem as there are a number of real world (aka non-Wiki) debates re the definition of pseudoscience. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 21:02, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

The aim as I see it isn't to "fully resolve this problem", but to reach a workable solution that all parties can live with. Further discussion with that aim seems to me to be the best way forward. . dave souza, talk 22:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

List of regarded or characterized pseudoscientific concepts. QuackGuru (talk) 04:30, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

lol. How about List of putative pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts, or List of things-in-the-world that are asserted by reliable sources to be pseudoscientific. Frankly, I cannot think of a title that accurately conveys the content here which could reasonably function as a title. BTW, having been a long while since I checked in on this page, I'm impressed with the progress to-date w.r.t. trying to achieve respect for WP:V#Reliable_sources, WP:RS, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. For that alone, kudos to everyone involved over the past year or two, no matter what their positions on the numerous issues that inevitably come into play when one is dealing with a word ("pseudoscience") that from the getgo requires a judgment about what's science, what's not, what's in between, for what reason, in what respect, for whose purposes, for what readership, etc. etc. etc. ... Kenosis (talk) 05:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I can understand the "lol" when looking at such hyperbolic suggestions! You must not have seen the suggested List of topics referred to as pseudoscientific. It's actually shorter than our current title and describes our current content very precisely. -- Fyslee (talk) 06:59, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

If all "topics" within the list are agreed to consist of WP topics (i.e. articles), then indeed, why not? Speaking as just another WP user, that seems fair enough to me, Fyslee. I should think, or at least want to think, that WP's readership automatically assumes WP content is based only upon reliable sources-- silly me. ... Kenosis (talk) 07:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe using the word "subject" would make it clearer, since we're dealing with subjects, most of which are already described in articles, but if a V & RS has mentioned ... nah, I doubt anything not already mentioned would come up. Let's just try this alternative, since I think it is actually better. Thanks for triggering this:

• List of subjects referred to as pseudoscientific

The sourcing requirements are unchanged by this. The V & RS rules governing all of Wikipedia will apply here, not some special, local, temporary (since consensus can change), limited, twisted, POV version of how to select and choose sources. The rules that govern all of Wikipedia will apply here, which is what should have been happening all along, but wikilawyering has made a mockery of that, designed in such a manner as to keep certain subjects off the list. -- Fyslee (talk) 07:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

List of pseudosciences and associated pseudoscientific concepts. QuackGuru (talk) 07:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

In what manner does that suggestion (or any of your suggestions) solve anything? It just seems to be another wording without any new implications for content. It brings absolutely nothing new to the discussion, nor does it improve anything or bring us closer to a solution. Oh... I forgot...you see no problem, and therefore all this discussion doesn't even exist. -- Fyslee (talk) 07:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Fyslee, do please try to see the potential of this discussion rather than making assumptions about others. It strikes me that List of pseudosciences and associated concepts would be a possibility, as it removes any inference that everything on the list must be pseudoscientific, and indeed opens the way for a section on anti-pseudoscience positions or organisations such as Scientific skepticism if that were agreed on the talk page. Thus topics could be grouped within sections according to the weight of verification that they are pseudoscience, using WP:PSCI as a guide. . dave souza, talk 09:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

How about List of pseudosciences and concepts/ideas associated with pseudoscience? Take your pick if you'd rather use concept or idea. I'm not entirely happy (for example, skepticism is "associated" with pseudoscience, but it probably won't appear on this list), but we can make it clear that we mean concepts that have pseudoscience associated directly with them (as opposed to being antagonistic, or metaphysically connected, or being a philosophy-of-science critique of the subject, etc.) If we can have List of alleged UFO-related entities which has even worse "association" problems (are cows UFO-related since cattle mutilation is UFO-related?), surely we can have "ideas associated with pseudoscience". ScienceApologist (talk) 12:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I think List of pseudosciences and associated pseudoscientific concepts is the best option. I'm not sure about List of pseudosciences and concepts associated with pseudoscience. QuackGuru (talk) 17:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

They're almost synomymous but not quite, and each has it's strengths and weaknesses. The former may be too inclusive the latter too restrictive and open to squabbling. Request time to ponder. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 18:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, the title List of pseudosciences and characterized pseudoscientific concepts may work best. QuackGuru (talk) 18:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Or, for grammar reasons (yes, I'm a PITA about that) List of pseudosciences and concepts characterized as pseudoscientific &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 19:20, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

List of pseudosciences and concepts characterized as pseudoscientific

{{editprotected}} I have removed this editprotected request. If the page should be moved, follow the procedure at Wikipedia: Requested moves. Oren0 (talk) 05:38, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Request remove title tag and change the title of article to List of pseudosciences and concepts characterized as pseudoscientific. QuackGuru (talk) 21:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The above template is only supposed to be used to request uncontroversial changes. Given the obvious rejection of this title by numerous editors, as well as the support for other options expressed below, it is clear that this option has not achieved consensus and that the change would be highly controversial. This dismissal of multiple editors' opinions as if they didn't exist is similar to the attitude which prevailed previously when the disputed tag was edit warred out. It is hard to imagine how this will have anything but a negative impact on the collaborative spirit on this discussion page. I would therefore ask QG to retain his support for this option if he wishes but to withdraw his request to have the change implemented at this time. Landed little marsdon (talk) 04:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

There is support to change the title. If you continue to be difficult I will report you to ANI for an indef-ban. QuackGuru (talk) 04:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

One: don't strike through my comments. Two: I didn't say there was no support, I said there was support and dissent (i.e., no consensus and therefore not an uncontroversial change). Three: rather than threaten people with lifetime bans for asking you to have regard to the views of other editors, you might try to have regard to the views of other editors. So, I ask you once again: will you withdraw your request to have a non-consensus and controversial change made to the locked article at this time.Landed little marsdon (talk) 05:04, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support the new title. QuackGuru (talk) 19:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support the new title. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 22:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
• Object with caveats - I would only support such a title if 1) there was a bright line division of which concepts are generally considered pseudosciences and which ones are only characterized as pseudosciences (i.e. two seperate lists) and 2) if specific attribution was madatory for the latter list (i.e. Foo has been called pseudoscientific by Organization A and Researcher B). Otherwise, I see this title having the same WP:PSCI/WP:NPOV issues which we are trying to avoid. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment, sadly, there is not necessarily such a bright line in the real world. In these cases, the preponderance of the evidence (as per WP:NPOV) would serve. In addition, "characterised" offers plenty of leeway for those who support a specific, shall we say, discipline. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 23:28, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment - If it isn't clear to the reader which concepts are pseudoscience by scientific consensus and which ones have only been characterized as such without scientific consensus, then we will have failed WP:PSCI and hence WP:NPOV. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Comment So our readers are idiots, then? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 00:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
        • Comment. We are assuming that the average reader knows nothing about WP:PSCI and the editorial guidance it provides. It would be rather easy for a reader to getconfused about the pseudoscientific status of foo if it is listed with a mixed bag of items - some of which are obvious pseudosciences and some of which are only called such by a notable skeptic group. Do you really want to see psychoanalysis and phrenology right next to each other on the same list even when we know there is a bright line distinction between their status as a pseudoscience? Probably not. So since we have the guideline, we have the sources, and we have the ability to keep these two items in distinct and proper lists, why not? It helps the reader to understand it more clearly and it helps contributors know where to place new items. It truly is a win-win. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 00:52, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Agreed to an extent. Nonetheless, we're still going to have problems in deciding which goes in what category. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 00:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
      • • We won't have that problem at all if we shorten it to List of concepts characterized as pseudoscientific. -- Fyslee (talk) 07:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
      • If we use WP:PSCI as our basis for the inclusion criteria, I think we'll be alright. That said, the two article solution I proposed below draws the line in the sand a little deeper and takes care of any of the titling issue (i.e. a title which tries to account for two lists in one article rather than presenting the two lists in two separate articles with two distinct names). -- Levine2112 ^discuss 01:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Mind if I think on it a bit? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 01:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
      • Of course! I appreciate the consideration. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 01:20, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support Looks good. II | (t - c) 01:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support as second choice to the simpler title, below. - Eldereft (cont.) 12:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Nolo contendere This title may be marginally better, but practically invites a two-state solution. It is fine with me if consensus takes us this way, but just saying characterised or referred or whatever would seem to solve more problems (especially given Fyslee's parsing below). - Eldereft (cont.) 06:51, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
• Non support support "Characterized" is kind of weasel worded. But if all of the above like it, then I'll support it with my nose held. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support with the criteria for inclusion on the page remaining the same, while still not seeing the need for this change. I'd also prefer characterised was spelt correctly (attempt to injecting some "humour" there) Verbal chat 20:17, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Yes, I prefer the Commonwealth spelling, too, and I'm a bloody American. LOL. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 20:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support, if this will still the raging storm. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 20:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
  • On reflection, support only as second best to the "simple title" below. This bipartite title looks as if it is setting up a distinction between things that are PS and those that have merely been called PS, even if that isn't the intention, and will therefore not quell all the arguments. The simple title proposed below has a clear single criterion for inclusion, and works better. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 21:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support if everyone will stop complaining. ScienceApologist (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
• I don't support. I think this title completely fails to deal with the main issue. If it was: List of topics and concepts characterized as pseudoscience, then that would work for me. Landed little marsdon (talk) 22:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
• Object for same reasons expressed by LLM. It doesn't solve the NPOV problem. It also suffers from being a very long and awkward title, including unnecessary words. List of concepts characterized as pseudoscientific would be sufficient. The removal of the word "pseudosciences" would solve the NPOV violation. -- Fyslee (talk) 23:51, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
• Defer to the simpler title below. hgilbert (talk) 02:33, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose, we don't want to mix obvious crackpot PS with topics that are only borderline PS. MaxPont (talk) 13:10, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too long and clumsy in my opinion, as I said below, I like the simplier title. --CrohnieGal^Talk 13:14, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Two article solution

In this compromise, we would simply have one article entitled List of pseudosciences and one entitled List of questionable sciences. Each would have inclusion criteria based soley on that which is outlined in WP:PSCI. Simple!

• Support. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, the two-state solution? This actually makes some sense, if consensus can be maintained about its right to exist. I like the idea for starters. But I'm not sure it's consensible as proposed, because what's conspicuously missing is "concepts characterized as pseudoscientific", which comprise a significant part of the current list. ... Kenosis (talk) 00:09, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

"Concepts characterized as pseudoscientific" is implied by the definition of "Questionable science" given at WP:PSCI ("...but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience...") and would therefore be a part of the inclusion critera (i.e. the lead) of the proposed List of questionable sciences article. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 01:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Questionable science would appear to vastly understate some of the entries. I'm leaning towards List of fields alleged to be pseudoscience and List of concepts alleged to be pseudoscience, even despite the problems inherent in the use of the word "pseudoscience". But with that said, I think that forking it into two lists makes some good sense. ... Kenosis (talk) 02:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Kenosis, you say, "Questionable science would appear to vastly understate some of the entries." Question: To whom would it appear to be this way? I ask this not to trick you, but more as a reminder not to confuse the situtation with our own POV. We can only distinguish between what is a Pseudoscience and what is a Questionable Science using reliable sources applied to WP:PSCI. The majority of the problem which occurs at this current article is when someone sees something included which they personally believe should be excluded or when someone sees something excluded which they personally believe should included. If we check our POV baggage at the door and rely on WP:V based on the criteria of WP:PSCI, we should be able to neutrally divide the list into items which are Pseudoscience (either obviously or by general consideration) and Questionable Science. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 02:41, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, if you're going to differentiate between List of questionable science(s) and List of pseudosciences, that makes sense as two separate lists. In addition, there need be a third list containing the concepts alleged to be pseudoscience, which would also reasonably give rise to a fourth list of questionable scientific concepts. Given the progress I've seen to date in working out POV disagreements in the current list (I'm not kidding--there has been discernible progress despite the current brouhaha), this approach would, I think, be very facilitative and more useful to readers than the current list. in some cases, I imagine we will see the possibility of some concepts, practices or fields on more than one list, depending on what the RS's are saying about that particular concept, practice or field. Yes, Levine, though I'm sure the arguments will inevitably continue, in general this split approach makes good sense to me. ... Kenosis (talk) 02:53, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

How about we keep the two lists as described above but based on your input retitle them to be List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts (the current name of this article! :-) and List of questionable sciences and scientific concepts? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 03:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

This also makes sense. The words "questionable science and questionable scientific concepts" are self standing. For pseudoscience, speaking just for myself, the qualification "putative pseudoscience and pseudoscientific concepts" more accurately captures the jist than qualifiers such as "alleged", "asserted" and other such adjectives that've been floated above. I do recognize "putative" would be a virtually impossible sell. So, what you likely end up with is, as you say, List of pseudoscience and pseudoscientific concepts with largely the same POV battles as before w.r.t. that list, with a safety valve of sorts to shunt a number of entries off to "questionable science". Nonetheless, IMO it's an improvement in categorization. Anybody else? ... Kenosis (talk) 03:46, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 00:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support. This solution will reduce the amount of controversy. MaxPont (talk) 09:56, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Absolutely not. This would generate even more argument, over which list each topic belongs to. What is needed is a single list, with a single inclusion criterion. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 20:28, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose the dividing and conquering of this article. Verbal chat 20:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose per WP:POVFORK. QuackGuru (talk) 21:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. So, what does one do with concepts and fields that are in the "grey" area that falls short of "clearly pseudoscience"? It's not a POV fork to list "questionable science" separately, but rather is quite arguably an extremely reasonable content fork. "Questionable science" has already been defined here. As I think most everybody here knows, WP:PSCI lays out a four-tier assessment, in which the first two appear to belong in the present list. Stuff that's in the grey area might reasonably belong both in a list of pseudosciences as well as in a list of questionable sciences. New entries would likely appear in a list of questionable science that do not meet the threshold for inclusion in the list of pseudosciences. Same old POV battles about what should be on the pseudoscience list, but at least it would be an opportunity to acknowledge that questionable science isn't the same as obvious pseudoscience. ... Kenosis (talk) 23:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Tentatively support, per my thoughts just above. ... Kenosis (talk) 23:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose divide and conquer proposal. This is just another way of watering down the subject and would be a POV fork. I agree with SNALWIBMA that we need a single list with a single (and broad) inclusion criterion. That will stop most of the edit warring. A narrow inclusion criterion will always cause problems. The single criterion is that it must be cited from a V & RS. Any other criterion (once already included) would (for the cases of clear PS) be partially governed by WP:PSCI. -- Fyslee (talk) 00:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

In other words, Fyslee, the threshold question hinges on whether there is one reliable source that calls something pseudoscience or pseudoscientific? One skeptical RS calls my work "pseudoscience", another RS calls it "a testable hypothesis that merits further empirical study and evaluation", and it still meets the inclusion criteria for "list of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts"? ... Kenosis (talk) 05:31, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't put it that way, but basically it's a matter of using the same rules here as anywhere else at Wikipedia, and that is that things must be sourced properly. Here a weird Twilight zone state of special sourcing rules have been developed that suspends the normal rules in favor of some special rules developed as a compromise because of incessant and persistent edit warring. Such a state should not exist. A local consensus cannot override the consensus that has established our sourcing policies. The same rules apply everywhere at Wikipedia.

While notability is a requirement for creating an article, it is not a requirement for content within the article, IOW a reference doesn't have to be from a notable source, but still must come from a V & RS. A list is a special situation, as each item can be considered a mini-article, and the references used should have the same criteria for acceptance as they would in the subject's article. Why do I mention this? Because there are editors here who for ages now (years!) have tried desperately to keep out anything but official statements from scientific academies, well knowing that scientific academies rarely give pseudoscience the time of day and just ignore them without comment. Such comments are very rare. This is no proof that those PS subjects aren't bald-faced PS BS, but the sources that always do call them what they really are have been edit warred to death to keep them out. Those are skeptical sources, which are completely allied with mainstream science, consist of scientists and medical professionals, and in every way are legitimate sources for making declarations about the PSness of things.

The situation you describe, where there are very different declarations (I assume from mainstream sources, since fringe sources only misuse the term PS as an illegitimate defense of their BS), if they are from numerous very strong and notable mainstream sources, likely indicate that the subject is a mainstream subject under debate, IOW a genuine "Questionable science" (QS) or "Alternative theoretical formulations". These are both mainstream objects of study, not alternative or fringe subjects.

According to PSCI, the QS one can be dealt with in this manner: "... but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized."' We can thus (very) briefly describe the dispute, while linking to the main article, where the dispute should be described in more detail. This is something we actually do with all the subjects in the list.

I hope that answers your question. Since I'm speaking in hypotheticals based on a lack of information about the subject you allude to ("calls my work"), I'd like to know what your example is. -- Fyslee (talk) 09:14, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. I don't think that two lists are needed. Look at the warring on this one, then double it. I like the simple list below. --CrohnieGal^Talk 13:11, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Simple title

List of concepts characterized as pseudoscience
List of topics referred to as pseudoscience
List of subjects described as pseudoscientific
&c. Fyslee has suggested a number of similar titles (thank you for all your work on this dispute). If we are going to move the article, we might as well make the title slightly less unwieldy. - Eldereft (cont.) 12:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support first choice to PS and characterized PS, above. - Eldereft (cont.) 12:00, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support. I could get behind any of those, as they are NPOV, have the necessary qualifiers, and aren't too long. -- Fyslee (talk) 22:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support I think the qualifier qualifies all the items and so i support.Landed little marsdon (talk) 22:12, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support. "Characterized" is probably the best of the lot, "described" my next choice. hgilbert (talk) 02:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Defer to the broader consensus title above. See Talk:List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts#List of pseudosciences and concepts characterized as pseudoscientific. QuackGuru (talk) 02:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. In the same way that "List of people characterized as war criminals" would be a bad attempt to sidestep WP:BLP, these suggestions all strike me as equally bad ways to skirt around WP:PSCI (and hence WP:NPOV). -- Levine2112 ^discuss 02:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Not a problem, as I have explained to you elsewhere on this page. If a V & RS says it, it doesn't violate BLP, and in this case with PS subjects, it won't skirt around PSCI and NPOV if we change the title. We will still comply with NPOV and PSCI. In fact you have agreed that the current title violates NPOV. As to PSCI, only obvious PS will be so labelled "by us" in the list. All other mentions will just be referenced mentions. PSCI does not forbid us from producing V & RS that declare a subject to be PS. It only forbids us, as editors, from doing so. In fact, if we do this with a neutral title in a neutral manner, we don't even divide things up into obvious PS or generally considered PS, but just list things alphabetically by topic and let the sources speak for themselves. Let the readers decide. Nothing in the title identifies or declares any of the subjects as obvious PS. The title only declares that the list consists of references that describe subjects as PS. It does not declare anything in the list to be PS, as our current title does. Neither Wikipeida or its editors are declaring anything on the list to be PS. We are staying out of it and letting the sources speak. Our job is to document the real world using V & RS, not to come with our declarations about the real world. -- Fyslee (talk) 09:34, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

So essentially, according to you, we can put George W. Bush (and pretty much every modern U.S. President) on a list with Adolf Hitler without violating BLP. Okay, try to start List of people characterized as war criminals and populate it. See how long that article lasts before an AfD goes through. It will be deleted and salted before you have time to alphabetize the list. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:10, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support. I like List of concepts characterized as pseudoscience for the name. --CrohnieGal^Talk 13:09, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. The two article solution is better. MaxPont (talk) 13:12, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support. On reflection, this is better than the more complex "PS and concepts characterized as PS". This is simple, easy to understand, and should avoid the arguments. The bipartite title looks as if it is setting up a distinction between things that are PS and those that have merely been called PS, even if that isn't the intention. I like List of concepts characterized as pseudoscience. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 21:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support second choice, still not seeing what the NPOV problem with the current title is. Verbal chat 22:28, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Getting clear

It might help to try to get clear about the precise areas of agreement and disagreement. For example, some are quoting PSCI as if it was law while others are downplaying its importance -what is its status? Some cite sources as if all that is needed is a source while others think only some of the cited sources are acceptable given the title. That is, some think the title is of no consequence while others say that different types of title radically change the types of source that would be acceptable - is this really what people are saying and who is right.

If we can get clear about the actual things people are saying or about the assumptions that lie behind the various claims them we may get a lot closer to resolving the situation. As things stand, the constant talking past each other looks embarrassingly like an episode of Jerry Springer. Landed little marsdon (talk) 22:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

• The way I see it, the WP:PSCI definition is an agreed working procedure, and it draws a distinction between topics which "may be categorized as pseudoscience", namely "Obvious pseudoscience" and "Generally considered pseudoscience", as well as topics which "should generally not be characterized as pseudoscience" including what it defines as "Questionable science: "Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized." There's a case for including on this list "questionable science" provided we're clear that it should generally not be characterised as pseudoscience, and renegotiating the title could meke that clear. Alternately, we can remove all "questionable science" from this list, and possibly move the items to a new list under that title. The former has the advantage of allowing for some topics being a hotly contested grey area, and making the title less judgmental. . . dave souza, talk 23:07, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Here's a yes or no. Does inclusion in a "list of Xs" effectively categorize something as an X? I think yes.Landed little marsdon (talk) 23:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Dave souza, I believe that your latter "Alternately..." solution above is perhaps the best idea I've heard for compromise to date. Thank you for that. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 02:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:PSCI is part of the Neutral point of view FAQ, which is policy. The problem lies in determining questionable vs. generally considered. To my mind, the former includes topics like IQ (test-retest reliability, interpretability of g given that PCA decomposition guarantees a most correlated vector, etc.) or model-free acupuncture (the research base is pretty shoddy, and there is really no justification for doing another pilot or uncontrolled study except to get free advertising from the media). Once we start talking about imaginary energy, the use of anti-logical hypothesis-building strategies (plant is parasitic ==> extract cures cancer), or thinking happy thoughts at water while it freezes, generally considered is well covered. The 'has a significant following' test should not be used blindly - astrology has a significant following, but no scientific rationale.

What, specifically, on this list do people think falls on the wrong side of this divide? - Eldereft (cont.) 17:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think much falls on the confirmed side on this list. That's what I'm not getting about this discussion. What is pseudoscience is pretty clear. Dave souza's use of "psychoanalysis" as possibly pseudoscientific is something I'd like to see as a reference, but there is a lot of science behind it. I think the use of the pseudoscience Arbcom ruling and PSCI to prevent things from being categorized as pseudoscience is kind of weird. I read both, and it gives editors a lot of latitude in determining what is pseudoscience. So.....why are we having this discussion?OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:38, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Psychoanalysis keeps getting bandied about because that is the example ArbCom used as a typical questionable science in setting up WP:PSCI. The marked difference between psychoanalysis and, say, applied kinesiology is why I keep opining that we should discuss specifics. - Eldereft (cont.) 18:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Both psychoanalysis and applied kinesiology are questionable sciences according to PSCI. They are each theories which have a substantial following but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience. This is verifiable (at least I am assuming so for the sake of this response) and as such they are both placed under the same umbrella of "Questionable Science" according to the PSCI policy. Assuming verification from reliable sources that each of these subjects have indeed substantial followings but have been alleged to be pseudoscience by some critics, this should be the end of it. The problem is when we inject our own POV and assess things suchs as: Subject A is more questionable than Subject B. Or Subject A is really a pseudoscience but the scientific community just hasn't gotten around to calling such. Or Subject B isn't really all that questionable as the only people calling it a pseudoscience are morons. :-) We have to rely only on what we can verify and then build our list(s) based on the criteria provided by PSCI. I know that when I check my own personal POV baggage at the door, this all becomes very evident. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 03:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Is "some critics allege" NPOV? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 03:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It's part of the definition of Questionable Science as per PSCI which is part of the NPOV policy. So if it isn't an NPOV statement, then I'd be in favor of tweaking the definition to be more aligned with the very policy it is a part of! :-) -- Levine2112 ^discuss 03:20, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

OK. It's got a weasel word and a very subjective word (allege). Of course, all of this points to why this is such a frustrating topic. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 03:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

One of the best ways to deal with a difficult problem is to avoid it completely and tackle a much easier one. For example, we can sidestep the difficult pseudoscience demarcation problem and deal instead with the much easier has-been-called-pseudoscience demarcation non-problem. By doing this we save ourselves a whole lot of trouble, we avoid having to make any judgement calls, and we allow readers to make up their own minds. And to do it, all we need to do is change the title. Landed little marsdon (talk) 04:03, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Very well put. That's what I've been trying to get people to understand, but they keep insisting on using wordings that will leave them with many difficult decisions and opportunities for continued edit warring. We can simply avoid all of that by using the right type of title. I have suggested one that does that. LLM understands the core problem and its solution. -- Fyslee (talk) 07:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

In any case we seem to be getting closer. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 18:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Does a title categorize the content?

Here's a yes or no. Does inclusion in a "list of Xs" effectively categorize something as an X? I think yes.Landed little marsdon (talk) 23:14, 15 January 2009 (UTC) (Copied from above by Fyslee as it's a related matter.)

I agree with LLM. Looking at it from the other direction, I think that a title (a) categorizes and (b) describes the content, and that it also establishes the basic (c) inclusion criteria. When content and title are not in agreement, one or the other must change so as to establish harmony between the two. A title must also (d) be NPOV. A loose title establishes broad inclusion criteria, while a very specific title establishes narrow inclusion criteria. In this case the narrow inclusion criteria allow a number of fringe POV pushers to keep their favorite PS delusion from being mentioned at all, in spite of the fact that those delusions are widely described as pseudoscientific by many V & RS, many quite notable. -- Fyslee (talk) 05:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 06:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

According to what policy a title of an article is a category. QuackGuru (talk) 06:56, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

That's not what is being asked here, but WP:CLS is the answer to your question. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 06:59, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Does a title categorize the content? Absolutely not. QuackGuru (talk) 07:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, see WP:CLS. Categories and lists on Wikipedia are different methods of doing the same thing - catergorizing. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 07:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Titles do not categorize. This list is not meant to be a categorical denigration of everything that appears on it as a pseudoscience. On that everyone agrees (I think). ScienceApologist (talk) 12:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Definitely no agreement on that. Without qualifiers, the title is clearly and unequivocally declaring ALL the content unquestioned pseudoscience. -- Fyslee (talk) 07:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we need to be clearer still, so I will ask again and clarify. We are not just asking a general question about whether titles of articles categorize or are categories. Instead we are talking about a very specific type of article (a list) with a very particular type of title (list of Xs). So, the question is: does including A in a list entitled "list of Xs" effectively categorize A as an X? I think it does. Landed little marsdon (talk) 18:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course. That's the nature of a list and why WP:CLS says that Lists and Categories are interchangeable - both exist as a matter of editor preference. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

In maths, A would indeed be a subset of X. Hence the importance of a neutral title like that which QG and I prefer. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 23:24, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Is that a "yes" Jim?Landed little marsdon (talk) 23:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

In maths, yes. However, maths knows no nuances. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 01:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

This isn't maths, so your comment doesn't answer the question. -- Fyslee (talk) 07:38, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

And in this case, the non-maths case, do you think the subtle and complex nuances of the language which preclude a simple yes or on answer are primarily down to the word "list", the word "of" or the variable "X"? Landed little marsdon (talk) 01:54, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It's neither of the first two, but it may well be both variables: x and a, or at least how we define them and include or exclude them. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 02:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Thought you might say that. OK: for any A and any X, if A is included in a list called "List of Xs" then that effectively characterizes A as an X. Now, given your point about the variables creating nuance, you must think that particular As and Xs make a difference, and therefore you must think it false for at least some As or some Xs (otherwise they wouldn't make a difference), so I'll put you down as a "no" then. Landed little marsdon (talk) 03:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

How about putting me down as a qualified "maybe"?  :) Subsets can have subsets too. If we list numbers, 1.7, 4, 77.6, 9, 7 and 11 all qualify; but if we list whole numbers, only 4, 9, 7 and 13 qualify; but, if we go further and specify primes only 7 and 11 qualify; and if we want to be really esoteric and go for Mersenne primes only 7 qualifies. Language, which is all we have to express the sub-issues in this debate, works the same irritatingly difficult way.  :) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 20:56, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

i'm not sure you're not missing the point. Of course different sets will have different members and subsets will partly overlap, but the point here is simply about the relationship between the title of any particular list and its members. That is, does the title of any particular list determine and categorize its members? In the examples you gave, in any example I would argue, the answer is obviously yes - thats what allowed you to specify so easily what should be in each list. In any event it doesn't really matter at this stage since all this is about is trying to get a rough idea of the areas of disagreement. So far i think we have two yes's and one undecided since the guestion was further clarified. Landed little marsdon (talk) 21:39, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Not missing a tick :) Nonetheless, in maths you would be correct, but maths is objective whereas language is not. So, while I really do understand what you're saying, I'd still, as a linguist, need to remain a qualified maybe. OK, I might lean toward yes, but it really depends on the clarity of the title and sauid title would need to both avoid and encompas nuances. Sorry to be so difficult (as I'm sure that that's how I seem in this case), but it's really not as simple a question as one might imagine. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 22:21, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you're being difficult, i just think you're confusing yourself and the issue by constantly bringing up maths examples which, when shown not to support your point, you claim only don't do so because they're maths. Then why bring them up? If you actually have an example using language where you would want to include something you would not characterize as an X on a list of Xs then I'd love to hear it.Landed little marsdon (talk) 22:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Not confused either. In linguistics, most morphology, syntax, grammar and even nuances can be reduced to maths terms.

Let's say that our list is "words". We can classify love as a noun. Also as a verb. (In rare cases, as in "love potion", it's an adjective) Which is it? Both? All three? We could get much more complicated, if I wished. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 23:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Deletion

The list was nominated for deletion twice trivially and those requests were dismissed on the account of their triviality rather than the merit of deleting this list. I feel that deleting the list altogether would make the controversy settled for now, as the list is extremely subjective, with editors operating under entirely different paradigms of what science is and what pseudoscience entails, while a neutral observer is unable to judge which paradigm to adopt. A list like this would have the tantamount effect of a list like "list of falsehoods", which is also extremely prone to subjective judgement. I would suggest unprotecting the page, at least temporarily, to allow a deletion request that is done with rigorous reasoning and procedure. Wandering Courier (talk) 03:01, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

For reference, the previous discussions can be viewed here:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts (2nd nomination)

--Elonka 03:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

As long as we are actively discussing such vital changes as what title to use, and other such matters, any attempt to raise an AfD is a bad faith attempt and should be rebuffed as an attempt to shortcircuit the community at work right here to solve the problems. The community of editors of this article, not some little group of involved and uninvolved editors, should make this decision. If they fail to solve the problem, IOW if this continues to run in circles, then an AfD might be justified. -- Fyslee (talk) 07:47, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Fyslee that an AfD now is not appropriate, but I believe it will finish up there. Lists on a wiki are very difficult where the content is contentious. It would be better to stick to a category, which forces discussion to individual arguments about articles and whether the pseudoscience is appropriately sourced for the article to be in the category. --Bduke (Discussion) 09:17, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you're right that this will end up at an AfD. Without any NPOV qualifiers in the title, this will always be a battlefield and even I would be forced to bury this list. I'd hate to do that, since it covers an important subject with V & RS. I have suggested a simple title that can stand up to any wikilawyering challenge, will significantly lessen the risk of edit warring, and will allow for the current content to remain: List of subjects referred to as pseudoscientific. We could solve most all of the existing problems we've been debating, but it appears that some are more interested in keeping this as a battlefield, than seeking a peaceful solution so we can move on. I fear this will end up being deleted, much to the delight of fringe editors who wish to keep real world opinions about their favorite delusions from being mentioned. Right now they have NPOV and PSCI on their side, and any title without qualifiers, IOW any title that categorizes ANY of the content as unquestioned PS, will just give them a justifiable excuse for deleting this list in toto. The actual content, LEAD, and inclusion criteria can indeed label and categorize some of the content as unquestioned PS, but the title shouldn't. That is totally unnecessary and a violation of NPOV. -- Fyslee (talk) 18:48, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

1. Titles do not have to be NPOV. The contents does, so (a) all sources must be attributed (eg. Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience) (b) allow sources that counterclaim a subject as pseudoscience (c) Include subjects that are no longer considered pseudoscience, eg. plate techtonics.[3]
2. A possible NPOV title would be: List of subject considered pseudoscience (or not) --69.42.49.68 (talk) 20:45, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

As Emily Litella said, "wht's all this about violins on TV?". &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 21:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Preparing to start deletion process very soon

This has dragged on long enough. I'm considering beginning the deletion process soon. If we can't choose an NPOV title, one that allows readers the freedom to make up their own minds based on the sources, then this will forever be a battlefield, per my comments immediately above this section. With a better title, the actual content, LEAD, and inclusion criteria can indeed label and categorize some of the content as unquestioned PS, but the title shouldn't. That is totally unnecessary and a violation of NPOV. -- Fyslee (talk) 18:56, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd not think that deleting an article would delete the issue, so I don't see any benefit to an AfD. - Jim62sch 21:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course. The situation is that when the foundation of a house is faulty, there will always be problems with the house. Unlike with a physical house, we can change the foundation of this article quite easily. If we aren't willing to do it, we will be faced with continual disruption here. In that case we should start over with another foundation (an NPOV title) and build on it, using the same content we have now. We need a new foundation that will justify and support the current content. Right now there is a mismatch. Any title that includes a POV element that conclusively identifies content as unquestioned PS will always meet resistance from unreasonable editors, of which there are and will be any number who will plagued the article. I have suggested a title that is immune from such attacks. -- Fyslee (talk) 21:58, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with that. The titles you've suggested seem OK. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 23:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

For the nonce we need to reduce the choices, and the drama and shit-stirring instigated by an unamed editor/admin needs to stop. Then, we can get down to business. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 23:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Parsing of WP:PSCI

Arbitration Ruling on the Treatment of Pseudoscience In December of 2006 the Arbitration Committee ruled on guidelines on the presentation of topics as pseudoscience in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience. Neutral point of view as applied to science: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience. Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Wikipedia aspires to be such a respected work. The four groupings found at WP:PSCI 1. Obvious pseudoscience: Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more. 2. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience. 3. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized. 4. Alternative theoretical formulations: Alternative theoretical formulations which have a following within the scientific community are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process.

I have previously parsed the ArbCom decision's four groupings, here reproduced above and commented below:

There is an obvious demarcation line that the ArbCom members seemed to recognize, and that is "who is supporting or criticizing what."

They made four groupings, and the first two are these:

• 1. Obvious pseudoscience
• 2. Generally considered pseudoscience

These are subjects that are recognized by the scientific mainstream as fringe/alternative (often alternative medicine) ideas opposed to mainstream science, but supported by believers in pseudosciences. The ArbCom decision allows the scientific mainstream criticisms to be stated, IOW that the fringe/alternative believers are wrong, and that their position is pseudoscientific, all by the use of V & RS, and can (in addition) even be so characterized by editors at Wikipedia (by using the [[Category:Pseudoscience]] tag), or by labeling them as PS in articles. IOW, the ArbCom decision is supporting scientific mainstream editors and limiting fringe editors:

The next two are quite different, since they are about ideas on the mainstream side of the demarcation line mentioned above:

• 3. Questionable science (IOW, things like psychoanalysis, which is considered mainstream and is specifically addressed by the ArbCom, and would not be allowed to be categorized as PS, but could be mentioned).
• 4. Alternative theoretical formulations ("are not pseudoscience, but part of the scientific process," IOW also considered mainstream, and would not be allowed in this list. "Experimental alternatives are unproven but have a plausible rationale and are undergoing responsible investigation."[4])

They are mainstream ideas that may or may not be firmly entrenched, but are somewhat trusted or still being researched by mainstream scientists in a legitimate manner. They may actually be experimental. No matter what, they are not considered fringe or alternative medicine ideas. They are sometimes accused by the fringe side as pseudoscientific (in true pseudoskeptical style - see Carroll), and the ArbCom decision forbids the fringe editors here from categorizing those mainstream ideas as pseudoscientific. Again, the ArbCom decision is supporting mainstream editors and limiting fringe editors:

I think this parsing is accurate and makes sense of what is confusing to some editors. The ArbCom members are not addressing the use of V & RS in lists and articles, and they would hardly be expected to disallow V & RS, but they certainly would set limits on what certain fringe/alternative editors have occasionally tried to do - editorially calling mainstream ideas pseudoscientific. The ArbCom members support mainstream science and set limits on how far fringe editors can go in (mis)using Wikipedia categories.

Changing the title of this list would greatly help to enable the use of all V & RS, as required by NPOV and sourcing inclusion criteria. The current title is not NPOV. We need a List of subjects referred to as pseudoscientific. That would be the primary inclusion criteria (IOW what was "on-topic"), and would allow well-sourced criticisms by scientific academies, various organizations, and even notable individuals who are quoted in V & RS.

At the same time the ArbCom decision would disallow the disruptive POINT violations of pseudoskeptics who attempt to include more-or-less mainstream ideas in this list (such as vaccinations, antibiotics, etc., as has happened). Such sabotage attempts would not be allowed. Those who are still acting in a protectionist mode will of course attempt to retain a narrow-inclusion-criteria title "List of pseudosciences....", since that will allow them to keep their widely criticized pet ideas out of this list. That's unwikipedian and such attempts should be defeated. It limits the list by disallowing many very notable opinions in V & RS.

Other sabotage attempts have been attempted by slurring the distinction between groups 2 and 3, IOW when fringe supporters attempt to claim that alternative medicine concepts that are "Generally considered pseudoscience" by the mainstream are really considered "Questionable science" (by fringe supporters), merely because they have a "following" (or even a "substantial following"...duh!), or because fringe supporters believe that such methods (by using crystal ball thinking) might someday be proven or accepted by the mainstream. Such slurring should be rebuffed. Only when such PS concepts actually have been scientifically proven do they become mainstream. It has to be an unquestioned historical reality (IOW V & RS) that such a transition has occurred. Read Marcia Angell on the subject, where she (ultra mainstream) makes a clear difference between groups 2 and 3. The ArbCom also makes that difference, and we as editors on this list need to do the same. No slurring should be allowed.

Fyslee (talk) 01:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with Fyslee's take on #2 and #3 as he relies less on parsing and more on interpretation. Here is the actual text from PSCI with my commentary below.

2. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.

I take this at face value. It says nothing about "alternative" nor "fringe" so we shouldn't make a generalization that all alternative/fringe ideas are definitionally pseudoscientific. If something is generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community then there will be a preponderance of reliable sources saying so (hence "generally considered"). We shouldn't rely on Wikipedia editors' POV in any way, shape or form; that's where we historically always get into trouble. Present the sources - the more authoritative, the better - which verify that the theory is generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community and there really can't be any argument for exclusion from the "List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts".

3. Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.

Again, I take this at face value. This says nothing about mainstream. It is possible for an alternative or fringe theory to have a substantial following too. Whether the theory be considered a mainstream or alternative one is irrelevant here. What is relevant here is that the theory has a substantial following and there are only "some" critics alleging it to be a pseudoscience. Present reliable sources which verify that the theory has a substantial following but is only alleged to be pseudoscience by some critics, and there there really can't be any argument for exclusion from the "List of questionable sciences and scientific concepts".

All we have to do is follow WP:PSCI to the letter, and we can't go wrong! :-) -- Levine2112 ^discuss 08:34, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

But that's what we've tried for years now and it hasn't worked. That's why we are here. A change of title will guarantee that we can preserve the current content pretty much unchanged and eliminate much of the edit warring. That single problem has been at the foundation of most of our problems here. Without a change of title, much of the content should be removed, or the whole thing deleted. Much of the content has been edit warred into the article, in spite of the title not justifying such inclusions. I believe those inclusions are good ones, and that changing the title will solve the problem. It will make the list cover the subject much more deeply and completely than is allowed by the current title with its narrow inclusion criteria. -- Fyslee (talk) 09:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

References

This section contains references used in the above discussions. Please keep it below other sections.