User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Qworty

"For those of us who love Wikipedia, the ramifications of the Qworty saga are not comforting". That sums it up for me. More thoughts soon.

I would have banned him outright years ago. So would many others. That we did not, points to serious deficiencies in our systems.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:34, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

This can't be the sum total of your response to this issue. Please weigh in Jimmy. InconvenientCritic (talk) 23:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

What about "the system" stopped you? Why didn't you?Dan Murphy (talk) 20:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

In past cases, he did: Often, when Jimbo has used his admin rights to block users or delete nonsense files, then several people have launched endless complaints, tirades, diatribes, potty tantrums (etc.) to flood message boards with numerous insults (even on other websites) to almost shutdown meaningful work. Meanwhile, you might think other admins would instantly come to block the haters, issue warnings, or redact insults, but no, its like no one left will help in a visible way, as if they, too, would become likewise hounded, as part of an imagined "Jimbo conspiracy" of tyranny to suppress anyone who is badmouthing "questioning" or insulting "correcting" the horrible intelligent, experienced, accomplished, and generous people in the world who "do not have consensus" to oppose the ideas of the uninformed. In fact, some admins move quietly to help (very quietly), but when Jimbo walks away from insults and ridicule seen as weak, he is probably providing the strongest leadership to avoid the hate-mongering that would lash back against his admin actions. In earlier years, Jimbo was directly involved, writing articles, inspiring massive fundraising, and setting major priorities to keep Wikipedia from total failure, and then people had the gall to refer to him as "Co-founder of Wikipedia" (just too funny). Extremely intelligent people can see how Jimbo has won amazing victories against what could have been extended petty battles with bad karma to waste his time, which he used instead to spread positive news worldwide, and hence, thousands of people see Jimbo and Wikipedia for those big, worldwide accomplishments, rather than trivial mudslinging fights. It might take a while to understand the social dynamics of those actions, but I hope I have offered some insight into the process. -Wikid77 10:40, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

jpgordon's comment above suggests that, for whatever reason, procedures that were (and are) normally followed, were not followed in one instance. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:48, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I look forward to hearing your thoughts about this in greater detail, Jimbo. Even more so, I look forward to substantive actions. I was exceptionally disturbed by Qworty's intemperate and crude talk page rants and revenge editing a few weeks back, and if anything, more disturbed at the willingness of several other editors to defend and protect this gross misbehavior. Hand wringing is not enough, and disruptive editors must be identified and have their editing privileges removed if they are unwilling or unable to comply with our policies, with a special emphasis on BLP. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The "fight the Man!" instinct around here is strong. No matter whom is banned, there is a vocal group of people who will argue against it. If action is taken by ArbCom, they will be accused of star chamber-type justice--with side accusations of favoritism, capriciousness, or ideological motivation to boot. Qworty's problematic behavior was brought to Arbcom's attention six years ago... yet here we are, only now having given him the boot. Jclemens (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The last time Jimbo acted to ban an editor with a conflict of interest, ArbCom overturned his action with extreme prejudice (see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/TimidGuy ban appeal). That context may explain how "the system" constrains him from acting. MastCell ^Talk 22:50, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo honestly has two choices—create stronger institutions on Wikipedia such as an elected assembly, content review boards, and professionalization of the admin force (with an admin review subcommittee of ArbCom hiring, sanctioning, or dismissing admins), rather than handing the encyclopedia over to the mercy of corrupt, self-serving cabals; alternatively, he can reassume the role of a god-king. I would prefer the former. Wer900 • talk 23:06, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

That would be because Jimbo's ban was wrong on a number of different levels, MastCell. You'll note divisions in the committee over whether and how Will Beback was to be sanctioned for his behavior in the matter, but there was not a single dissenting voice among the committee of the time who said that Jimbo's ban was correct. Jclemens (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Your argument appears to be that the whole committee agreed ergo Arbcom was correct and Jimbo was wrong. Considering the pressures to conformity that would exist I think that argument has little value, IRWolfie- (talk) 10:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Jclemens, I'm not arguing that Jimbo's ban was "right" or "wrong". I'm just saying that the last time Jimbo intervened to address a conflict of interest, he was very publicly reversed by ArbCom. In that light, it's not surprising that he feels constrained from acting in these cases. MastCell ^Talk 22:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, MastCell. The problem with your statement is the assumption that a conflict of interest actually existed. In fact, the evidence as I saw it said that 1) icky invasion of privacy was needed to draw that conclusion, 2) Even if we assumed everything that was inferred to be true was, in fact, true, nothing done would rise to the level of a policy violation, and 3) the evidence was tenuous, out of date, connected via suppositions, and thoroughly insufficient grounds on which to base a banning. So in that sense, no, I never saw the TG appeal case as being about actual COI, because COI was never established. Jclemens (talk) 04:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to continue this tangent here but: a conflict of interest definitely exists with regard to the TM advocate in question. The assertion of paid advocacy was disproved. Whether that advocate and several others in the subject-area are editing tendentiously is yet to be determined. Proving problematical but civil tendentiousness is hugely difficult and time-consuming, but where it exists polite, relentless tendentiousness - paid or not - is one of the biggest threats to the reliability of our medical content.

Editors who attempt to counter civil tendentious editing with uncivil bullying and gaming do us a disservice; they obscure the real problem while attracting sympathetic support for the tendentious editor/s. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:58, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This is an excellent example of why Jimmy is obviously not keen to get involved. What we had was a group of editors who had disclosed who they worked for, and then proceeded to remove the best quality evidence many times as it disagreed with their personal or organizations position [1], [2], [3], [4]. And then goes on to misrepresent the source [5] One was banned for this COI by Jimmy. And was subsequently unbanned by arbcom. I still do not think Jimmy agrees with arbcom's position. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

This thread is supposed to be about Qworty. But somehow the conversation has been spun to perpetuate a false narrative [6] intended to vilify some undefined group of editors that the editors here are in a content dispute with. Editors misusing sources? Well if that isn’t the pot calling the kettle black. Just look at these diffs where Doc James removes positive content, backed by numerous MEDRS compliant sources and reviews-- three times-- on March 23, 2013. [7][8][9] James then replaced the more positive content with a statement that negates all TM research: Independent systematic reviews have not found health benefits for TM beyond relaxation and health education. There have been 350 peer reviewed studies on Transcendental Meditation and numerous systematic research reviews including a recent positive review by the American Heart Association just this month, but Doc James wants to marginalize all this. Even if it means repeatedly deleting sourced content and circumventing discussion on the TM talk page.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 13:39, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I started looking into this before I fell ill recently. I'll get back to it now. If sources are being systematically misrepresented in this topic area, if weak sources are being pushed to trump strong sources, by either side, it has to stop. Analysing this kind of thing is arduous and very difficult to summarise clearly so that non-expert uninvolved editors can make sense of it. But we should try. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I do hope you feel better soon, and when you do, I for one would welcome and support input on any articles you feel need outside eyes. (olive (talk) 19:03, 23 May 2013 (UTC))

• Mr. Wales contacted Qworty at his talk page on two occasions (both times in regards to severe BLP violations): in 2010 and in 2013. So, Mr. Wales, could you please explain what serious deficiencies in your systems have prevented you personally from banning Qworty ? Thanks. 76.126.142.59 (talk) 01:49, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Subdiscussion copied to its own thread

We have policies and institutions to handle these sort of situations, insufficient and flawed though they may be. Jimmy Wales has enough on his plate not to be expected to run around as judge, jury, and executioner. Moreover, none of us should WANT a system in which one individual has such power. The failure to stop Qworty from malicious editing is a failure of all of us. And this failure was exacerbated by Wikipedia's unhealthy worship of editing secrecy and its failure to install mechanisms to halt the ability of one person to start and use multiple accounts. Along the latter line, one good idea I heard recently was that WMF should unilaterally begin including IP addresses in the signature of each post at WP. This would serve as a red flag on multiple accounts being used in close proximity to one another by a single editor. In the long run, Wikipedia needs real name registration and sign-in-to-edit mechanisms to further limit the use of multiple accounts and to make sure that content can be attributed to a real life individual — which would incidentally slice vandalism massively. Carrite (talk) (Tim Davenport, Corvallis, OR, USA) 06:00, 20 May 2013 (UTC) That is certainly one step in the right direction. However, I think a broader issue is that the rules have been created by editors for editors and they therefore receive more consideration than either the readers of our articles, who want balanced and accurate information, or the subjects of our articles, who do not want to be libeled or to be represented unfairly. Consideration for Qworty in his capacity as an editor ahs meant that our readers and the people he hates were ill-served. Of course, now he has been declared a non-person, he will himself be receiving the same loving care which his enemies did from him. Commons is particularly extreme in looking at ways to ban those who expose multiple copyright breaches by members of the in-crowd and in banning the whistleblowers, but the whole span of Wikimedia projects need a whistleblowers' charter that protects those who seek to protect stakeholders outwith the editor/admin core. --Peter cohen (talk) 15:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC) (ec) I do (want a system where one individual has such power). Essentially 100% of other successful organizations that produce reference works have such a person. They are called Editor-in-Chief. Having one here would not impinge on the community aspects of creating content and deciding most issues. Jimbo decided not to have one, so for better or worse we don't and won't. Instead he have a rather nebulous and very vexing and labor-intensive system. We have to make it work as best we can I guess. We need to accept that situations like this will likely arise, again and probably forever. It doesn't mean the Wikipedia as a whole doesn't work, though. Requiring editors to use or link to their real identities would mean the immediate exit of me and many editors like me. I have standing in the community, vulnerabilities, dependents, and so on. I can't get into a real-life pissing match with someone who lives in his mom's basement and has nothing to lose. Phone calls to my employer and so forth are not part of any deal I want to be a part of. Requiring editor identification would basically allow the participation of two groups: the truly strong (who have resources to engage lawyers and PR men, tenure or independent means or other secure income or position, many friends, a secure pubic reputation, and whatnot) and the truly weak (who have little to lose, no reputation to tarnish, no assets to seize, no job of any importance to lose, and whatnot). Many many everyday people like me would go, and that at once. Whether that'd be worth I don't know. I don't think so. Herostratus (talk) 15:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC) I wonder what a pubic reputation might be... Pgallert (talk) 21:45, 20 May 2013 (UTC) By "public reputation" I mean a reputation with at least some segment of the general public, rather than just with one's friends, neighbors, colleagues, and so forth. A whispering campaign, or letters to his hometown paper, or calls to his employer, or emails to his neighbors, or anonymous threats to his relatives and yadda yadda, by some small collection of random mooks, is not going to much bother say Paul Krugman. They would me. Herostratus (talk) 01:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC) No offense intended, but if I had to choose between you editing and Paul Krugman editing, I'd choose Krugman (-: On a more serious note, I think that there might be advantages to going half-way here, by providing some advantages to editors who do choose to expose their real-world identities while not requiring it. I haven't thought through what appropriate advantages would be, though, I'm just throwing that out. Besides, there are a lot of editors who do expose their identities today, yet, excluding people very high up in the project, I can't think of anyone who has been targeted in Real Life by another editor, so I don't see that possibility as a major problem. Cheers, JYolkowski // talk 18:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC) It most certainly happens and is a real threat. I'll give you an example from about three or four years ago. There's one particular article – I won't name it – whose subject is rabidly hostile towards Wikipedia and doesn't believe it should be allowed to have an article about him. Unfortunately he has a number of online followers who take their cue from him. He told them to come to Wikipedia and vandalise his article as much as possible. Naturally, editors and admins stepped in to prevent that, block sockpuppet accounts and so on. He retaliated by targeting those editors and admins personally - mobilising his followers to find out who they were and who their employers were, so that he could call them up and threaten them and their employers, with the obvious aim of making them lose their jobs. I believe he did actually do this in several cases. There are other incidents I'm aware of, as well. Death threats aren't unknown, particularly where hardline nationalists are concerned. In one case I know of, an admin was tracked down and phoned at home by a Turkish ultranationalist who was offended by edits on a Turkey-related article. Considering that Turkish ultranationalist groups have been responsible for hundreds of murders of critics and academics who have offended them (see Grey Wolves), not surprisingly the admin was quite perturbed by this incident. People have certainly been targeted for harassment in the past, and unfortunately that's probably inevitable given Wikipedia's prominence as a source of information. In many parts of the world, Wikipedians may face not only the threat of harassment but of being persecuted by the state or subjected to physical violence. That threat isn't necessarily confined to the usual Third World hellholes, either - it only takes one extreme or unhinged person, and there are plenty of those in every society. Prioryman (talk) 00:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC) In general Internet harassment is becoming more and more prevalent. A few kids committed suicide because they were harassed on the Internet, and in particular on Facebook, but I do not know any other site, but Wikipedia, where human beings are being harassed by the community of anonymous users. Of course, as you once said there's no such thing as the Wikipedia community, and you are right there isn't, but there's a bunch of anonymous users, most of whom add little or no content to Wikipedia, and who call themselves "the Wikipedia community". Most of them are bullies, others are simply clueless users, yet the Wikimedia Foundations finds nothing wrong with allowing those users to govern Wikipedia to harass human beings. It is sick and scary. I understand everybody who'd rather would not have his/her BLP on Wikipedia. I would not have liked to have my BLP on Wikipedia either. 76.126.142.59 (talk) 02:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC) Yes of course its a problem. I only have the one life and have enough problems already. Anyway, whether it's a problem or not doesn't matter: I think it's a problem and so would most prudent and savvy people, I think, and that's what matters. Yes of course I'd trade myself for Paul Krugman, but Krugman's not on offer and anyway there are a lot more bohunks like me available than there are Krugmans. I'm not saying that identity shouldn't be required. I don't know that. I do know that a very large number of editors and potential editors would become immediately unavailable if it was, so let it be understood that there would be a hugely massive cost. Maybe the benefit would be even more hugely massive. It would have to be. Herostratus (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2013 (UTC) Yes, you're quite right that the cost would be massive. Not only the directly resulting loss of existing editors (which I agree would be very substantial) but the accompanying controversy and the bad feeling it would engender, which would of course drive away even more editors. I would go as far as saying that it would probably destroy the Wikipedia editing community. (I can't help wondering if that is part of the reason why the Wikipediocracy people – some of the most extreme of whom hide behind their own pseudonyms while avidly outing others – are pushing it.) Moreover, verifying identities would have a huge logistical cost. There's nothing to stop people registering under fake names. The only way around that that I can see would be to require people to submit ID documents like a driving licence or passport, but that would have massive implications of its own for privacy and availability – like voter ID, what do you do for people who don't have those kinds of documents? – and who would store and process all of that data? On the English Wikipedia alone there are over 6,000 new user registrations a month and about 14,000-15,000 across all languages; that's up to 500 a day. The logistics of having to verify the ID of each and every one of those would be huge and, I guarantee, very expensive. The cost would be completely disproportionate to any benefit we would accrue. Prioryman (talk) 07:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC) Of course, that only looks at the time investment of a new system on one side of the equation. There would be, theoretically, tens of thousands of fewer instances of vandalism which might well be an even more gargantuan time sink than the investment in verification. Moreover, I'm quite sure the number of registrations would fall if real live registration and verification were followed — both dubiously-motivated editors and sock farmers would be deterred from the process. Serious-minded people would not be halted. Carrite (talk) 16:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC) Only allowing confirmed identities to edit here would make the involvement of Krugmans far more likely, and allow the actual banning of problem editors (as opposed to just forcing them to change their usernames. How many people here think "Qworty" isn't editing now, as we speak?) It would detox the atmosphere here overnight. Concerns about personal security are real, as they are for all writers and journalists. But our present solution - allowing anyone to edit anonymously - is, in my opinion, hobbling this project, harming our subjects and short-changing our readers. Regarding the difficulty of confirming identity, those with personal credit cards could identify fairly easily, possibly automatically. Those with real-name email addresses on university, large company, government department etc. websites, should also be able to register without much trouble. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 09:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Added 10:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I think one big problem here is that enforcement efforts are weighted too much towards finding and fixing things that don't really hurt the encyclopedia, while things that really do hurt the encyclopedia are completely ignored. Think about all the time spent reverting vandalism and warning and blocking "vandals". This run-of-the-mill vandalism doesn't hurt the encyclopedia, because it's quite easy to find and undo (sure, maybe the occasional non-editor will, very briefly, see bad content in an article, but it would never be so bad that they'd write an article in the New York Times about it). One big side effect of this emphasis on vandalism is that new users editing in good faith are inadvertently painted as vandals and removed from the project before they can really contribute anything. Meanwhile, it's pretty easy for people who know how the system works to make insidious edits that can cause a lot of damage. It's a lot more difficult to spot these sorts of problems, but if there were a way of encouraging people to spend their time and energy finding these problems instead of looking for run-of-the-mill vandalism, I think it would be of much benefit to the project. Cheers, JYolkowski // talk 18:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that the statement about finding and fixing things that don't really hurt the encyclopedia is absurd. How can anyone say that vandalism does not hurt the encyclopedia? It certainly does hurt the encyclopedia. It is just easy to identify and correct. Perhaps User:JYolkowski is really saying what I said, which is that our processes do very well at identifying blatant short-term harm, such as vandalism, obvious POV pushing, and edit-warring, but that we do not have an effective process for identifying long-term devious editing. I disagree with any suggestion that we shouldn't put our current effort into fixing run-of-the-mill vandalism. I agree with the comment that too many experienced editors fail to assume good faith on the part of clueless editors and revert them as vandalism, thus biting the newbies rather than reverting them as good faith edits that are not good edits. Does User:JYolkowski have a suggestion for what process changes are needed to deal with insidious edits? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Also, although we do not have an effective process for identifying and correcting long-term devious edits, if User:Qworty was using sockpuppets, which we do a reasonably good job of detecting, it is hard to understand why he was not banned as a puppeteer. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

If you compare Wikipedia to the real world, then Wikipedia is like a country without a parliament and government, where the judicial system has to deal with everything. This leads to the judicial system being focussed due to public sentiment on high profile political matters and allows for smart criminals to exploit the situation and get away with their crimes by keeping a low profile. Count Iblis (talk) 13:00, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I thought we were an anarcho-syndicalist commune...--ukexpat (talk) 16:25, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

See:Userboxes@WikiSpeak -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 23:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

"You're fooling yourself! We're living in a dictatorship! A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes..."" Carrite (talk) 17:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Vote for the Socialist Editors Party to change things for the better. Count Iblis (talk) 18:03, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

There you go, bringing class into it again.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:04, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

That's what it's all about!!! Carrite (talk) 01:42, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

And let's not forget that in order to seize the malevolent despot crown Jimbo first had to get rid of his brother Prince Larry. Any one for a republic? MOMENTO 07:26, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

As far as I am aware Sanger left of his own accord, IRWolfie- (talk) 12:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

It was tongue in cheek as per the Month Python comments above but Jimbo still claims "I founded Wikipedia on January 15, 2001" on his user page whereas the Wikipedia article says "Wikipedia was launched on January 15, 2001, by Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger". MOMENTO 21:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• It is not clear to me why some people seem proud of the outcome that some minor writer was publicly disgraced for making some short-lived and pretty minor changes in spin to the article about a rival. We need to fix things like this, not make spectacles out of them. Wnt (talk) 17:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry, but if you think the changes he made were "minor" then you need to seriously consult a dictionary.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Developments from political players in Norway

In 2011 Norway's cabinet erased its debt to an African country that had two Norwegian soldiers (with valid Army identification cards in their possession) on death row—convicted of spying and murder. Are there any references in regards to their repatriation to Scandinavia about a week before the 2013 elections in September? (If the timing is wrong, the applicable Scandinavian government can be seen as having an inept foreign service, or being too soft on Norwegian convicted criminals/spies/murderers.)

Also the upcoming election might indirectly bring a new article to wikipedia. The reason is that a former leader of School Student Union of Norway, and a later victim of 22/7 (Norway's 9/11) is the subject of a book by a Norwegian political player (of the left-wing) and author. With Håvard Vederhus' name in the news, some of my countrymen might think that he is an international significant person, and therefore write an article about him. (I am guessing that his notability might be close to that of a student president at the largest high schools in the U.S. Except that I am guessing that he never has been directly elected to anything, by thousands of students. Maybe his notability can be compared to the following, except that they don't even have a language link to Norwegian: publicist Bjørn Wegge, winner of Toronto-based beaty pageant Saiyma Haroon, special adviser (without notable references) Gry Tina Tinde and circus worker Yellow Pagee Veronica Ljosnes.) How can one ascertain lacking notability for any or all the above? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rasta lørenskog (talk • contribs) 11:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:SOAPBOX. Your first paragraph is pure speculation and political commentary, your second paragraph is is pre-emptively poisoning the well, again on a political subject. These are your very first and only edits to the English Wikipedia, making one wonder why you are actually here. Is there actually a reason that new Norwegian editors are coming to this page so regularly? We've had User:Whatthatspells, first edit (April 2013) here, then User:One Direction of norw, only edits (15 April) here; User:Normash made some other edits besides coming to this page, and has since been blocked as a sockpuppet of a blocked user (similar to User:Barnstar candidate school, first edits here, soon after blocked as a sock). Fram (talk) 08:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

How many edits would one need before you approve? You're talking about well-poisoning, while I am indirectly questioning if there are notable reasons to translate an article from Norwegian about Håvard Vederhus. And I have pointed out that we probably should not be blinded by the fact that a book (about him) was written by a known political player. (The author was interviewed for 10 minutes on the TV2 Nyhetskanalen, and I was waiting for a clear reason to be explained about why the subject was notable. I was suprised to see that the author brought a guest to the TV show, that might help explain the notability of the Norwegian victim. The guest was the mother of the subject! I am sure that books will be sold, but not to me since I still don't know why he is notable, except that an author/political player wrote a book (3 months before the national elections)—and the subject has an article on Norwegian wikipedia. --Rasta lørenskog (talk) 09:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

More than zero at least... "Hey, I've never edited this site before, but I would like to warn you that someone may someday create an article about someone who isn't notable in my opinion (and, coincidentally, was a politician). Oh, and I also would like to mention that the politicians from a country you know next to nothing about may perhaps do something in a few months time". Your motives in posting here are at least dubious and seem to be motivated by a political agenda instead of a genuine interest in improving Wikipedia. Fram (talk) 09:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

We know something about that country—thru the articles about its publicists, beauty pageant winners, circus workers and special advisors. What we don't know is your opinion about the notability of the deceased student politician. --Rasta lørenskog (talk) 10:06, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I am really not going to spend my time discussing the notability of someone who hasn't got an article here with someone who thinks that we shouldn't have such an article here. It would be elevating pointlessness to a new height. Fram (talk) 10:31, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sju hav started. Fram (talk) 11:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I have nominated for deletion the articles about the publicist, the circus worker, the special adviser, the beaty queen and the related pageant for married, wealthy people with modelling experience. If anyone can tell me what are the criteria about inclusion of student politicians, than we might have an idea how to help with an article about Håvard Vederhus. If he was appointed for, but not elected by thousands of students, then he probably is not notable. --Rasta lørenskog (talk) 10:46, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Ginseng Coffee

Hey Jimbo, can you help fix and expand the page? There could be more information to be added, and i can't find an image for that at the moment. Kord Kakurios (talk) 22:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Kord Kakurios, it's nice to seeing you participating in areas other than discussions of pedophilia, but perhaps you could make more of an effort on that article before asking Jimbo to fix it for you? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:40, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

(Removed part of DC's reply which gave a rather dubious impression of the OP without contributing anything to this section. It may not have been DCs intention, but better safe than sorry.) Fram (talk) 14:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I've restored it. I have probably participated in more discussions of pedophilia and child protection issues here than Kord Kakurios, so any dubious impression would reflect equally on me. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:53, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll let others decide. I don't think it is in any way appropriate to include such association where it has no added value and can reflect badly on the OP, but perhaps I'm the only one who feels this way. Fram (talk) 15:05, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they probably didn't realize that they would be drawing attention to themselves by posting on Jimbo's talk page. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Fram. Your comment added nothing the discussion (such as it was) and it is quite difficult to view it as anything other than trolling and harassment. Resolute 03:14, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Regarding requiring editors to edit under (or at any rate disclose) their real identities.

I'm spinning this off from the User talk:Jimbo Wales#Qworty thread above, because it's peripheral but kind of interesting. (Interesting philosphically; it'll probably never actually happen here, although a fork could do it.) The text below is copied from that thread. (I think that by also copying in the signatures that I'm conforming to the CC-BY-SA 3.0 license; if some more knowledgeable person knows otherwise, this section should be deleted.) Herostratus (talk) 15:13, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

---

We have policies and institutions to handle these sort of situations, insufficient and flawed though they may be. Jimmy Wales has enough on his plate not to be expected to run around as judge, jury, and executioner. Moreover, none of us should WANT a system in which one individual has such power. The failure to stop Qworty from malicious editing is a failure of all of us. And this failure was exacerbated by Wikipedia's unhealthy worship of editing secrecy and its failure to install mechanisms to halt the ability of one person to start and use multiple accounts. Along the latter line, one good idea I heard recently was that WMF should unilaterally begin including IP addresses in the signature of each post at WP. This would serve as a red flag on multiple accounts being used in close proximity to one another by a single editor. In the long run, Wikipedia needs real name registration and sign-in-to-edit mechanisms to further limit the use of multiple accounts and to make sure that content can be attributed to a real life individual — which would incidentally slice vandalism massively. Carrite (talk) (Tim Davenport, Corvallis, OR, USA) 06:00, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

That is certainly one step in the right direction. However, I think a broader issue is that the rules have been created by editors for editors and they therefore receive more consideration than either the readers of our articles, who want balanced and accurate information, or the subjects of our articles, who do not want to be libeled or to be represented unfairly. Consideration for Qworty in his capacity as an editor ahs meant that our readers and the people he hates were ill-served. Of course, now he has been declared a non-person, he will himself be receiving the same loving care which his enemies did from him. Commons is particularly extreme in looking at ways to ban those who expose multiple copyright breaches by members of the in-crowd and in banning the whistleblowers, but the whole span of Wikimedia projects need a whistleblowers' charter that protects those who seek to protect stakeholders outwith the editor/admin core. --Peter cohen (talk) 15:30, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

(ec) I do (want a system where one individual has such power). Essentially 100% of other successful organizations that produce reference works have such a person. They are called Editor-in-Chief. Having one here would not impinge on the community aspects of creating content and deciding most issues. Jimbo decided not to have one, so for better or worse we don't and won't. Instead he have a rather nebulous and very vexing and labor-intensive system. We have to make it work as best we can I guess. We need to accept that situations like this will likely arise, again and probably forever. It doesn't mean the Wikipedia as a whole doesn't work, though.

Requiring editors to use or link to their real identities would mean the immediate exit of me and many editors like me. I have standing in the community, vulnerabilities, dependents, and so on. I can't get into a real-life pissing match with someone who lives in his mom's basement and has nothing to lose. Phone calls to my employer and so forth are not part of any deal I want to be a part of. Requiring editor identification would basically allow the participation of two groups: the truly strong (who have resources to engage lawyers and PR men, tenure or independent means or other secure income or position, many friends, a secure pubic reputation, and whatnot) and the truly weak (who have little to lose, no reputation to tarnish, no assets to seize, no job of any importance to lose, and whatnot). Many many everyday people like me would go, and that at once. Whether that'd be worth I don't know. I don't think so. Herostratus (talk) 15:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

I wonder what a pubic reputation might be... Pgallert (talk) 21:45, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

By "public reputation" I mean a reputation with at least some segment of the general public, rather than just with one's friends, neighbors, colleagues, and so forth. A whispering campaign, or letters to his hometown paper, or calls to his employer, or emails to his neighbors, or anonymous threats to his relatives and yadda yadda, by some small collection of random mooks, is not going to much bother say Paul Krugman. They would me. Herostratus (talk) 01:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

No offense intended, but if I had to choose between you editing and Paul Krugman editing, I'd choose Krugman (-: On a more serious note, I think that there might be advantages to going half-way here, by providing some advantages to editors who do choose to expose their real-world identities while not requiring it. I haven't thought through what appropriate advantages would be, though, I'm just throwing that out. Besides, there are a lot of editors who do expose their identities today, yet, excluding people very high up in the project, I can't think of anyone who has been targeted in Real Life by another editor, so I don't see that possibility as a major problem. Cheers, JYolkowski // talk 18:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

It most certainly happens and is a real threat. I'll give you an example from about three or four years ago. There's one particular article – I won't name it – whose subject is rabidly hostile towards Wikipedia and doesn't believe it should be allowed to have an article about him. Unfortunately he has a number of online followers who take their cue from him. He told them to come to Wikipedia and vandalise his article as much as possible. Naturally, editors and admins stepped in to prevent that, block sockpuppet accounts and so on. He retaliated by targeting those editors and admins personally - mobilising his followers to find out who they were and who their employers were, so that he could call them up and threaten them and their employers, with the obvious aim of making them lose their jobs. I believe he did actually do this in several cases. There are other incidents I'm aware of, as well. Death threats aren't unknown, particularly where hardline nationalists are concerned. In one case I know of, an admin was tracked down and phoned at home by a Turkish ultranationalist who was offended by edits on a Turkey-related article. Considering that Turkish ultranationalist groups have been responsible for hundreds of murders of critics and academics who have offended them (see Grey Wolves), not surprisingly the admin was quite perturbed by this incident. People have certainly been targeted for harassment in the past, and unfortunately that's probably inevitable given Wikipedia's prominence as a source of information. In many parts of the world, Wikipedians may face not only the threat of harassment but of being persecuted by the state or subjected to physical violence. That threat isn't necessarily confined to the usual Third World hellholes, either - it only takes one extreme or unhinged person, and there are plenty of those in every society. Prioryman (talk) 00:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• In general Internet harassment is becoming more and more prevalent. A few kids committed suicide because they were harassed on the Internet, and in particular on Facebook, but I do not know any other site, but Wikipedia, where human beings are being harassed by the community of anonymous users. Of course, as you once said there's no such thing as the Wikipedia community, and you are right there isn't, but there's a bunch of anonymous users, most of whom add little or no content to Wikipedia, and who call themselves "the Wikipedia community". Most of them are bullies, others are simply clueless users, yet the Wikimedia Foundations finds nothing wrong with allowing those users to govern Wikipedia to harass human beings. It is sick and scary. I understand everybody who'd rather would not have his/her BLP on Wikipedia. I would not have liked to have my BLP on Wikipedia either. 76.126.142.59 (talk) 02:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes of course its a problem. I only have the one life and have enough problems already. Anyway, whether it's a problem or not doesn't matter: I think it's a problem and so would most prudent and savvy people, I think, and that's what matters. Yes of course I'd trade myself for Paul Krugman, but Krugman's not on offer and anyway there are a lot more bohunks like me available than there are Krugmans. I'm not saying that identity shouldn't be required. I don't know that. I do know that a very large number of editors and potential editors would become immediately unavailable if it was, so let it be understood that there would be a hugely massive cost. Maybe the benefit would be even more hugely massive. It would have to be. Herostratus (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you're quite right that the cost would be massive. Not only the directly resulting loss of existing editors (which I agree would be very substantial) but the accompanying controversy and the bad feeling it would engender, which would of course drive away even more editors. I would go as far as saying that it would probably destroy the Wikipedia editing community. (I can't help wondering if that is part of the reason why the Wikipediocracy people – some of the most extreme of whom hide behind their own pseudonyms while avidly outing others – are pushing it.) Moreover, verifying identities would have a huge logistical cost. There's nothing to stop people registering under fake names. The only way around that that I can see would be to require people to submit ID documents like a driving licence or passport, but that would have massive implications of its own for privacy and availability – like voter ID, what do you do for people who don't have those kinds of documents? – and who would store and process all of that data? On the English Wikipedia alone there are over 6,000 new user registrations a month and about 14,000-15,000 across all languages; that's up to 500 a day. The logistics of having to verify the ID of each and every one of those would be huge and, I guarantee, very expensive. The cost would be completely disproportionate to any benefit we would accrue. Prioryman (talk) 07:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

As a side comment, I have not looked into Wikipediocracy, but would like to have the pro and con points of view on it. My understanding is that the con viewpoint is that it is a sub-community of cowardly bullies who hide behind anonymity while threatening to out or actually outing those whom they dislike. Is that correct? Also, is there a pro viewpoint? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course, that only looks at the time investment of a new system on one side of the equation. There would be, theoretically, tens of thousands of fewer instances of vandalism which might well be an even more gargantuan time sink than the investment in verification. Moreover, I'm quite sure the number of registrations would fall if real live registration and verification were followed — both dubiously-motivated editors and sock farmers would be deterred from the process. Serious-minded people would not be halted. Carrite (talk) 16:13, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion, the benefit in prevention of vandalism would be mostly obtained by eliminating editing from IP addresses. Pseudonymous vandalism is easily dealt with by blocking the vandals. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Only allowing confirmed identities to edit here would make the involvement of Krugmans far more likely, and allow the actual banning of problem editors (as opposed to just forcing them to change their usernames. How many people here think "Qworty" isn't editing now, as we speak?) It would detox the atmosphere here overnight. Concerns about personal security are real, as they are for all writers and journalists. But our present solution - allowing anyone to edit anonymously - is, in my opinion, hobbling this project, harming our subjects and short-changing our readers.

Regarding the difficulty of confirming identity, those with personal credit cards could identify fairly easily, possibly automatically. Those with real-name email addresses on university, large company, government department etc. websites, should also be able to register without much trouble. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 09:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Added 10:59, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

There is a site called Citizendium (site) which is similar to Wikipedia, except that it requires editors to use their real names, and experts (like Krugman) have more weight than non-experts. Their statistics are as un-encouraging as possible. Yesterday, there were a total of 21 edits to the mainspace. -- Ypnypn (talk) 15:49, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

No one, I think, is suggesting we introduce argument from authority as a policy. I don't think anyone is suggesting any kind of content policy change. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I think most any article I have edited on a volunteer basis on a person, organization or product, I would not want them knowing my personal identity to the extent that if I had to disclose it, I would choose not to edit at all.

What I could see is your real name and any company affiliations being part of the registration process, but not having the information made public. It could be used in a way to reduce socks and add a prominent edit-notice if you attempt to edit an article on yourself or your company. Another option would be having the information only available to admins for use in sockpuppet investigations. CorporateM (Talk) 16:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I can't actually see any justification - apart from the already-mentioned fear of reprisals that all writers and journalists must live with - for maintaining a cloak of secrecy over who edits the content here. You've said how it might affect your editing, but can you tell me why? You're a paid editor, is that right? If so, is that influencing your stance on open editing? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:46, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

There are Wikipedia editors who have been harassed to the point of people contacting their employers due to a dispute over an article here. Forcing IRL identities into the open would basically give the trolls and harassers open access to anyone they want to grief, with significant real-world consequences. I don't edit in any of the notable high-tension areas so my personal risk of conflict isn't high, but any policy that tried to publicly tie my edits to my IRL identity would result in my immediate and permanent retirement. Even using IRL identification in private to verify accounts is unlikely to produce any result but that which Prioryman argues above. But then, this entire concept is the typical and oft-trumpted knee-jerk reaction to someone being banned for being a problematic editor. Systems that create barriers to access and paralysis to the community would please those bent on destroying Wikipedia, but would do nobody else any good. Resolute 17:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

First, journalists - particularly those working for accredited media organisations - have training to deal with the threat of reprisals. They also have corporate legal and security departments to draw on. We don't. Anyone editing Wikipedia does so entirely at their own risk with little or no backup from the WMF. The threat of retaliation is non-trivial. Admins are at particular risk as they have to take actions - blocks, CU runs against sockpuppets, etc - which can provoke anger. No admin should ever be in a position where they're reluctant to block someone because they fear that they'll become a target and be put at risk as a result.

Second, requiring editors to have their real identities verified has huge logistical implications, as I've indicated above. It would require substantial manpower to manage and require a level of secure infrastructure - that Wikimedia simply doesn't have - to store the masses of private information that would be collected. This costs money, large amounts of it, and raises regulatory and legal problems that would be non-trivial to resolve.

Third, it would completely invalidate Wikipedia's basic ethos of being "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit". It's the same issue as the current push by the American Republicans for voter ID - it excludes anyone without the right kind of ID. Credit cards were mentioned above. Well, that means that anyone without a credit card (i.e. most of the world's population) would be excluded.

Fourth, it would quite plainly destroy the Wikipedia editing community. It would make a lot of, probably most, editors very unhappy and would certainly drive away a large number - especially admins who have the most to lose. The number of new user registrations would also be slashed. The more onerous a sign-up process is, the fewer people will use it. We have problems with editor retention as it is - this would be suicidal for Wikipedia.

Fifth and finally, it would be completely disproportionate to the problem it's supposed to solve. The vast majority of vandalism is dealt with quickly. Qworty slipped through the gaps because he was relatively subtle and nobody connected the dots for a long time. Even without anonymity, he could have hidden his identity by submitting fake ID. Unfortunately we may well have to accept that the occasional Qworty is the price we pay for having an open encyclopedia in the first place. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prioryman (talk • contribs) 17:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Have to say, on this issue I agree with Prioryman. -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 18:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

There are 100s of millions of people adding stuff to FB each day. Mostly they have a real ID, millions of them argue and fight over crap. What I don't see are reports of 1000s of people's employers being phoned up because of a FB argument. John lilburne (talk) 18:34, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Also agree with Prioryman. Newsstories about politicians and other people being attacked or fired for what they write on social media are not uncommon. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

That is mostly because they've been involved in stupid racist, sexist, or homophobic rants, or have been generally obnoxious above and beyond the call of douchebaggery, and in the process brought their employers, or party into disrepute. Are these the type of editors you want here? John lilburne (talk) 18:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

That is where aggressors on social media have been called to account. I'm not concerned with the aggressors here but with the victims. You can be sure that for every case of someone being brought to book for being abusive, there will be many more cases where harassment has taken place without it ever being reported. That doesn't make it any less distressing for the victim. And note that people are still willing to engage in abusive conduct on Facebook even though their identities are out in the open. Prioryman (talk) 20:39, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Yet every day a million people get into stupid rows on FB with each other and they do not have people phoning up their work or school. John lilburne (talk) 20:45, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I have several comments. In summary, I think that requiring editors to disclose their real names is a genuinely terrible idea. I would suggest that this thread be closed (squelched) by Jimbo Wales, but, barring that, it is still a genuinely terrible idea. If this idea is to be pursued further, can we take it to the village pump? The reason that I think it is a terrible idea is not because of harassment. (I am editing under my real name.) It is terrible for three reasons. First, as mentioned, there would be a serious overhead burden on Wikipedia or Wikimedia Foundation that would require administrative personnel and an infrastructure, not currently budgeted. Second, because we have always permitted pseudonymous editing, it would be an extreme and traumatic break from our past. Third, the cost would be greater than is justified by the Qworty incident. Sometimes an article requires blowing it up and starting over. This idea would amount to blowing up the encyclopedic community and starting over. Who really thinks that the Wikipedia community should be blown up and started over? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert McClenon (talk • contribs) 21:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's an easy question - the Wikipediocracy mob, for whom the prospect of blowing up the Wikipedia community brings on orgasms. It's no coincidence that they're the ones promoting this idea. Prioryman (talk) 21:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

the Wikipediocracy mob, for whom the prospect of blowing up the Wikipedia community brings on orgasms - please, seriously, can you cut that out? I understand you're upset but there's a grown-up serious, issue here and it should be discussed seriously without those kinds of random outbursts and tantrums. (And I actually sort of agree with you on this).Volunteer Marek 22:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, you've got to wonder why Wikipediocracy users like Carrite seem to be pushing so hard for this. Prioryman (talk) 22:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

To answer Wikipediocracy reader Prioryman: I am dedicated to this issue because I am convinced that the decision to allow anonymity was Wikipedia's Original Sin. A myriad of problems, exemplified most recently by the Qworty case but including as well the inordinate amount of time and energy spent on counter-vandalism efforts, the chronic problems with sock-puppetry and other abuse of multiple accounts, and the really pathetic inability of the community to create a mechanism for the identification and control of COI editing all flow from this unfortunate original decision. The Alice in Wonderland world of secret editors making poorly supervised edits is downright bizarre to normal folks who rely upon WP as an information source. At some point the demand for accountability will exceed the demand for secrecy. Until then, what those of us here at WP that believe in scrutiny can do is make our voices heard and urge others to step out of the shadow world and into the sunlight. —Tim Davenport, Corvallis, OR (USA) /// Carrite (talk) 22:48, 23 May 2013 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I haven't yet seen the argument that the damage done by users such as Qworty has been greater than the damage that would be done by the combination of losing a large number of users who prefer to edit pseudonymously and the non-trivial economic cost of a verification mechanism. It is true that we should have dealt with Qworty sooner, not because of long-term devious editing, but because of sock puppets. I do favor stronger restrictions than we currently have on editing from IP addresses, but those also have nothing to do with the Qworty problem. Without sarcasm, does anyone actually think that the Wikipedia community should be blown up and started over as a smaller, less welcoming community? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

John, people posting crap to Facebook do so only to their immediate social circles. More often than not, this means friends and family, and very often people with similar lines of thinking. You can't seriously believe this is comparable to an open website where anyone can see, comment and grief one for a comment or edit on Wikipedia. You're pretty much comparing apples to spaceships. Resolute 22:56, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Really? Well whilst some areas of FB are indeed insular, the creationists are all over the evolutionary groups, the Democrats are all over the Republican groups, the anti-guns are in the face of the pro-guns, etc, etc. John lilburne (talk) 23:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

And teenage girls get harrassed into committing suicide. Resolute 23:54, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

you forgot to add "by an anon". John lilburne (talk) 00:16, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• If Wikipedia will require the editors to reveal their identity it will be the end of Wikipedia. Think for yourself: Why Wikipedia has succeeded and Citizendium has not? Citizendium is missing dramas because their editors edit under their real names and are unlikely to engage in bullying and harassment. Wikipedia on the other hand lives and breaths dramas. Citizendium probably has no AN/I, no ArbCom, no arbitration enforcements. Editors on both projects do not get payed, but Wikipedians get compensated with the psychic pleasures of bullying. So to sum: anonymity = bullying; bullying = fun. It is sad of course, but I am afraid it's true. 76.126.142.59 (talk) 01:33, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, you're right about this being a haven for bullies, on both sides of the blue line. And it's true that the majority of vocal editors like it like this, otherwise it would have been fixed long ago. This repels real scholars and experts, that are sorely needed in many topic areas here, such as medicine. So this puerile trolls vs. heroes whack-a-mole, perpetuated by anonymous editing which prevents us from banning anybody really, is retarding the project. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Bingo!!! Carrite (talk) 03:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Anthonyhcole, Wikipedians do no like experts, they like reliable sources. Do not believe me? Okay, here are a few examples:

“A citation from a reliable secondary source trumps any academic qualification.”

“Wikipedia is a tertiary source that reflects reliable secondary sources--since when do we want our tertiary project edited by academicians with direct access to primary sources?”

“Most human beings are not academics, so it follows this is not an academic encyclopedia.”

"It can be a struggle and undoubtedly off-putting to academics used to their authority carrying weight, but here authority must be based on verifiable sources clearly and fairly presented. The success of this project comes, in my opinion, from it being a forum open to all and not a hierarchy of academic rankings."

"One may be an expert in one's field, but not an expert in collaborative, volunteer development of an open encyclopedia using wiki software."

Real experts are driven off the project, and besides why an expert would want to spend his time on writing an article knowing that his work could and probably will be destroyed by a bunch of nobodies who rely on reliable sources and on using wiki software, and who prefer speaking Wikipedian to speaking English? 76.126.142.59 (talk) 04:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I like experts, as do most editors at Wikipedia:Wikiproject Medicine; not because we can take their word (trust me I'm an expert) but because they can find and understand reliable secondary sources in their field. Frankly, while Pain management is the top Google result for "pain management", I think it is the duty of the International Association for the Study of Pain to be heavily involved in curating our pain content. Those comments you cite are mostly agreeing, with me and every reasonable person since at least Aristotle, that argument from authority has no place in rational discourse. Experts have to work within our epistemological model, and I'm as pissed off as anyone by those who try to throw their degrees about. I, and most Wikipedians, welcome experts here because when they work within our model, they get the job done. At least in medicine, there is still a great deal of work to do.

I agree with you that the mutability of our content is a disincentive (but good medical content here is remarkably stable), and being trolled and bullied by anonymous cowards isn't the only thing driving experts away, but it is a factor. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

You missed other differences between the two sites, 76.126. Wikipedia has an editing community, Citizendium does not. Consequently, we have more articles of good quality than Citizendium has articles, period. What if you tried to crowdsource an encyclopedia, and nobody showed up? Resolute 03:19, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Resolute, Wikipedia has no editing community. Wikipedia has a few hundred bullies who hardly add any content to Wikipedia and who call themselves "the Wikipedia community" and Wikipedia has the silent majority (editors) who add content but hardly take a part in discussions. Of course there are some users who are in between. 76.126.142.59 (talk) 04:19, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Ironically, several of these bullies are the ones most in favour of proposals such as these. And for the record, the community I was referring to are the content editors or those truly dedicated to maintenance tasks. I don't really count the drama queens on all sides. Resolute 04:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

For proper functioning, wikipedia needs a diversity of editors - this is why we have so many different wiki-fauna. Different editors have different interests - some haunt ANI and AFD, some deal with categories, some love hatnotes, some love templates, some (thankfully) actually write articles, some just drive around fixing hyphenation issues - but you *need* all of these fauna to make the wiki work. As such, I don't see why we can't have a hybrid model?

• For the bulk of editors, they would probably prefer pseudonymous names. Their edits would, as a matter of course, be subject to higher levels of scrutiny and patrolling
• Some editors, like they do today, can edit under their real name, but this provides no advantage, unless,
• some editors, if they choose, can choose to confirm their identity with WMF via credit or other mechanism. This is similar to Amazon's real name badge which some reviewers can get.

Now, by default,

• Any article-space edits by real name users will be immediately visible to everyone - unless they are put on probation
• Any article-space edits by pseudonymous users will be viewable by any logged in users, but will be subject to review/patrolling before they become visible to non-logged in users

• Real name editors will automatically be granted patrolling rights. If they misuse these rights, they will be put on probation, meaning they are now subject to the same rules as pseudonymous editors.
• Pseudonymous editors, after a breaking in period, can apply for patrolling rights, and a panel of editors will review their most recent edits to ensure they are able to be trusted.
• Pseudonymous editors, after demonstrating competency and good faith and x000 significant article-space edits, can be granted the same rights as real name users, to have their edits show up immediately without being patrolled
• If there is a pattern of one pseudo patrolling/approving the edits of another pseudo, this could a potential (off-wiki) collaboration, so such articles would be highlighted and other patrollers would be notified to take a look at those edits.

• Additional restrictions will be placed on edits to BLPs - though I'm not sure what the best path here is

Just a rough framework, what do you think? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:37, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how you define a barrier to entry, it remains a barrier and will have a net-negative consequence. This would be exacerbated by creating castes of editors with the majority viewed as being part of the lowest caste. It would also, as I noted above, result in my own immediate retirement from the project. So you're down one content contributor, at the very least, with no appreciable benefit. Resolute 04:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The caste thing is an interesting point - I added an idea above that the pseudonymous editors would be able to apply for auto-patrolled-edit-status after making x thousand edits. But I'm confused as how you see it as a barrier to entry? The only difference to your life would be that all of your edits would be patrolled before being visible to the public. What is so bad about that? isn't there a discussion to do this anyway? it's not a barrier to entry in any case.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

One thing you're missing is that as soon as you go down the road of requiring some sort of verification, voluntary or otherwise, you need the systems and (employed) manpower to manage it - and that, as I said above, is costly. Your suggestion also wouldn't have done anything to deal with Qworty. The vast majority of vandalism is non-subtle and is already picked up quickly and reverted. Your suggestion wouldn't change that but would merely put a thicket of extra restrictions on legitimate editors. Prioryman (talk) 07:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The PC2 discussion is similar, but the key difference is that pending changes would be apllied tactically and in response to a need to protect an article. What you are proposing is to apply the same indiscriminantly against nearly every user on Wikipedia. That is slightly insulting, and since this entire discussion is a knee-jerk reaction to the Qworty incident, stands only to disenfranchise thousands of editors for the misbehaviour of one, leaving their contributions subject to the whims of the protected elite. All of this acts as a disincentive to edit or to join this community or remain a part of it. And, as Prioryman notes, would not be likely to prevent what Qworty did. Resolute 13:54, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

We're just talking here, and I'm not trying to insult anyone. I agree with Prioryman there would be costs for verification, but I'm not convinced they would be that high, especially if only a set of people decide to go for real name. Also, my suggestion *could* have prevented the Qworty mess, as other editors would have had to confirm his contributions before they became visible. As to resolute's point, I don't think a "patroller" status would be a protected elite - as I said above, any pseudonymous editor could get patroller status, if they prove their worth. I don't think that would be too much to ask - to have some sort of drivers license before your edits are visible to the whole world. As it is now, I can log in with an IP, having never edited here, put a subtle lie into a biography, and it may remain there for years. We have to strike a balance here. If we implemented this, we could immediately add many thousands of people to the patroller's rank, and we could also for example make it so contributions to pages with more than X watchers don't need any patrolling, assuming that the watchers themselves will patrol.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:56, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Your views on how this would prevent a Qworty incident are idealistic, but impractical in the real world. Ask yourself what a reviewer is going to check. They will check only that the edit is not obvious vandalism or an obvious BLP violation. There are far too many ways to bypass this. Lay low until you have enough edits to get elite status. Use fake offline sources that appear to justify the edit (or even real sources that slightly misrepresent the truth). No reviewer is going to question those edits. Hell, they could even give their real name because it should be obvious that the reviers will never gain access to the database matching real names to online IDs due to privacy laws, therefore they won't be able to cross reference that a person is editing their own article. The system is too easily bypassed by people dedicated to sneaky vandalism. Resolute 17:12, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

It would be better than nothing. For example, when he noted that X died of alcoholism, this should have been caught, but there was no patrol and no watchers. We could even increase the number of needed patrols based on the # of watchers - more watchers = less patrols needed. For barely watched articles, perhaps 2 or 3 patrols would be required. Now, could Qworty get elite status? Yes - but that would require some dedication, so we'd at list trim the ranks of potential defamers, and once he's caught, he loses all that time he put in to get that status. Also per real-name, I wasn't thinking that real name would be anonymous - if you give your real name, it is also your user name. Otherwise, pseudo is pseudo. Finally, our CURRENT system is easily bypassed by people dedicated to sneaky vandalism - so if this makes it better, even if it doesn't eliminate vandalism, why not? I also suggested extra protections for BLPs, though I'm not sure what those might be - but some more scrutiny somehow (perhaps require more patrols as a matter of course on BLPs?) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

More comments on requiring name disclosure

The proposal to require editors to edit under, or at least disclose, their true names is supposedly in response to the User:Qworty incident, who had a long undetected history of devious editing. However, it goes beyond what Andrew Leonard says in the Salon.com article that resulted in this proposal being re-raised. (I understand that it has been around from time to time for a long time.) Leonard wrote: "Wikipedia is one of the jewels in the Internet’s crown, an amazing collective achievement, a mighty stab at realizing an awesome dream: a constantly updated repository for all human knowledge." As Leonard points out, Wikipedia is flawed. I would ask: Is it flawed because it is the collective work of hundreds of thousands of flawed human beings, or is it flawed because, as User:Carrite writes: "[T]he decision to allow anonymity was Wikipedia's Original Sin"? I don't see that a reasonable argument can be made that Wikipedia would be better if, for the past twelve years, all users had been required to disclose their identities. It would have fewer flawed articles, but it would also have fewer articles. Perhaps Carrite disagrees with Leonard's characterization of Wikipedia as one of the crown jewels of the Internet, and thinks, as do some other people, that Wikipedia is a plague. The conclusion that the Qworty incident should be used to require identity disclosure goes beyond what Leonard has written. It is a proposal to blow up Wikipedia and start it over. Is that really what the proponents of this idea want? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

No, it's a proposal to reform WP going forward — and its realization is a long way off. Blowing up WP and starting over would mean, quite literally, blowing up WP and starting over. Establishing a rule that real name registration and sign-in is required to edit would mean an elimination of anonymity, not an elimination of WP. People would have a choice to either participate or not under those revised terms of use. Carrite (talk) 16:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The proponents of mandatory disclosure have not addressed the cost issue. It would not be sufficient to require that editors state their names and addresses on their user pages, because they could lie. In fact, mere disclosure on user pages would increase the likelihood of the currently rare (and forbidden) practice of providing a false identity, which can be very harmful to the person whose identity is stolen. It would require a credit-card-based system of identity verification, which would exclude editors who do not have credit cards. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

No it doesn't need credit cards. Most people are wedded to their social network identity simply have them either create an account via Google+, Facebook, Twitter, or whatever. All one needs to check is that the account wasn't created recently, that they have a number of contacts, and that it is actively being used. It won't stop the dedicated bad actor, but it will discourage most. The account doesn't even have to be made public one can maintain pseudo-anonymimty. The discouragement against bad actors is mainly the understanding that they may be held liable for their actions, and can't hide behind multi-user IPs. John lilburne (talk) 15:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

What you are suggesting appears to be a different and less extreme idea than what I think Carrite is advocating. You say that you would permit pseudo-anonymity. I don't think that Carrite would permit that. Maybe I have misread either your post or Carrite's. I would simply prevent unregistered users from editing in article space. Registered users are already accountable on Wiki for their actions because they can be blocked. If they try to evade the block, they and their sockpuppets can be indeffed and banned. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:49, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

As for attempting to block or ban anonymous editors, we all know how well that works, eh? I don't care if the name showing on the screen is a pseudonym, but there does need to be some linkage mechanism for real life identity. See, for example, the way that I've handled it on my user page vs. the signature which follows this period. Carrite (talk) 16:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Reference has been made to teenage suicides resulting from cyberbullying on social media. That is irrelevant, because both the bullies and the victims were using their real names. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

For the sake of proper context, I made that reference in response to the argument that editing via real identity would not be problematic because people post to Facebook under their real names without the kind of dire consequences mentioned. I pointed out that real consequences do follow. Resolute 17:20, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

If anyone actually thinks that Wikipedia is so deeply flawed due to pseudonymity that it should be blown up and started over, then I have a question and a suggestion. Does Wikipedia's Creative Commons copyleft permit all of Wikipedia article space to be copied to another server farm? If, as I understand, it does, then why don't those who think that pseudonymity is Wikipedia's Original Sin create a clone of Wikipedia, and begin editing it by publicly identified editors only? After one or two years, it will be an interesting exercise to see which encyclopedia has evolved more. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Don't confuse the chimeras and stick-men of some drama-fans with reality. Nobody thinks "Wikipedia is so deeply flawed due to pseudonymity that it should be blown up and started over." I will note, however, that your suggestion that critics of the Cult of Anonymity should fork WP as some sort of test of ideas is rather akin to the "if you're critical of the government, get out" sort of mentality that was prominent in the USA during the Vietnam era. No thank you, I am a Wikipedian, I'm not going anywhere — I look forward to the day when it is the sock puppeteers and anonymously cloaked POV and COI editors have to make the decision about whether to mend their ways or leave due to the reforms the WP community or WMF have enacted. Carrite (talk) 16:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

First, I disagree with the statement that allowing pseudonymity was the Original Sin of Wikipedia. The Original Sin of Wikipedia is the fact that human beings are flawed. Take your interpretation of Original Sin, but it is either 5763 years old or one million years old. Second, at this point, enforcing public attribution of identity would not blow up Wikipedia, but it would WP:TNT blow up the Wikipedia community and start it over. If you think that would be worth the trauma, and the cost, you are entitled to your opinion both in the United States and on Wikipedia. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Five or ten years down the road or whenever it is that this idea obtains critical mass either among the WP community or in the halls of WMF, I presume that something approaching majority support for the idea of ending anonymous editing will have emerged. At that point, the move would be much less traumatic than what you make it out to be. Certainly it would amount to a purge of those unwilling to make the change. Whether this price is worth the beneficent outcome is the big question and on this we differ. It is a matter of cost-benefit analysis... You are simply exaggerating the actual price of the change, in my opinion, and underestimating the value of the switch. Best, —Tim /// Carrite (talk) 21:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Why not let Watson be the sole editor of Wikipedia? He could update the entire Wikipedia in a matter of seconds while rigorously sticking to our rules for sourcing etc. Count Iblis (talk) 16:43, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

On the Internet, nobody knows that you are being sarcastic. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:42, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, perhaps IBM should allow Watson to become an editor here, it would be interesting to see how that would work out. Count Iblis (talk) 18:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

• It seems like nobody checks assertions around here, however absurd. Any idiot can type fired Facebook into a search engine and see that there have been a few cases of people suffering harassment on the basis of having their names known. I think a large portion of Facebook entries are indeed resumes and ads, and the site's primary purpose is some kind of evaluation. Even when it appears to document social interactions, the purpose of these postings is more for people to try to show potential employers that they are popular and have a potential network out of fear that not participating will make it look like they don't have a life. The site is not merely occasionally prostituted; it is fundamentally corrupt in purpose from beginning to end, so dedicated to people trying to market themselves from its first appearance as a college student "Hot Or Not" site. Wikipedia's purpose was utterly alien to this - to document fact on an honest basis. Wnt (talk) 17:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Are you replying to User:John lilburne's suggestion that Wikipedia accounts can be tied to other on-line presences such as Facebook? If so, I agree that tying accounts to Facebook is a bad idea. If that is not what you are replying to, I don't understand. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:53, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course people get fired for saying stupid things on facebook, and some even get fired for saying no so dumb stuff on facebook too. But last count there were approx 1 billion facebook accounts, and 100s of millions of messages posted there each day, at that rate you'd think that they'd be someone fired every day, but their not. There always have been a bunch of arsehole employers who if it weren't for facebook would be firing people for other bullshit reasons. But hey if you want to come onto WP and engage in sneaking in racist, misogynist, or homophobic bullshit, into the articles or get caught being an arsehole in some other way well tough. John lilburne (talk) 19:22, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

There is really no point in even discussing this idea because abolishing anonimity would simply kill the entire project. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 21:08, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I partly agree and partly disagree. Abolishing pseudonymity would kill the entire project. I think that a few of the proponents of requiring identity verification have exactly that agenda, although for any given proponent, we must assume good faith. I think that abolishing true anonymity, that is, eliminating IP address editing, would improve the project. The proponents of abolishing pseudonymity have proposed an extreme change and have failed to make their case that its long-term benefits would outweigh the short-term gain. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with the statement that it is not even worth discussing the idea. Some proponents argue, against strong evidence, that it would be beneficial. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:28, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Rather than abolish anonymity, why not simply add identified as a user group and define the benefit of being a member. I'm definitely not for requiring a person to edit using their real name and this relates to a very recent example where my email was hacked from a facebook user who was offended because my name matched his deceased father, he thought it was a bad joke, and he happened to have hacking skills, apparently. --My76Strat (talk) 22:09, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

It would kill it for you and others who insist on anonymity. It wouldn't kill Wikipedia though. It would change it for the better; open it up to ordinary people who are presently repelled by the toxic culture fostered by anonymity. It may be a shame to lose your input here, I don't know, but that would be a small price to pay to wrest this project from the grip of a small self-selected clique of obsessive paranoid misfits and bitter sociopaths that foster the present ethos of unaccountability and unconcern for our subjects and readers. We may lose half of the regulars here if we insisted on open editing, but I'd be very happy to lose most (but not all) of them. This project exists despite not because of most of them. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I think your agenda ("obsessive paranoid misfits and bitter sociopaths", seriously? Isn't that a better description of Wikipediocracy?) is clear - your promotion of this evidently has more to do with getting rid of editors you don't like than preventing vandalism. Nothing you've suggested would have stopped Qworty's subtle vandalism, so let's not pretend it has anything to do with Qworty. Prioryman (talk) 22:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about that. If we'd known he was Young, known about his personal history with many of his targets, I hope we would have put a stop to it a lot sooner. The "we" I'm referring to, though, it the hypothetical we, an open community of recognisable, accountable real persons, not the current community of anonymous cowards that currently control this site. I agree, a large portion of that community would have tolerated him, and seen nothing wrong with his behaviour. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Estimating the silent majority

For years, discussions have mentioned the "silent majority" of editors who do not participate in policy discussions, or reply to editor opinion polls. However, I have been analyzing the "majority of active editors who are silent each month" as editors who do not edit the talk-pages but edit only the content pages instead. In the new essay "wp:English WP silent majority" (wp:SMAJOR or wp:SILENTM), I have compared editor-activity levels to show how 74% of editors do not edit any talk-pages during a month, and even more editors are "relatively silent" as posting only a few messages while editing more than double the number of content pages. This essay is just the start of analyzing the counts, and I have a redirect titled as "wp:Silent majority". -Wikid77 (talk) 19:25, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

• Need to base decisions on data or polls of 1,001 opinions: Because the silent majority is so large, at 74%, and a consensus discussion might have only 30-70 participants to decide an issue (for "all Wikipedians"), then extra information is needed. Instead, some objective data should be used as evidence to back a proposal, or else run a survey to gather a collection of 1,001 user opinions (perhaps over a 6-month period), also factoring the creation date of each username in the survey. We have seen some cases of 50-user consensus that failed to represent a wider, or worldwide, view of the issues. -Wikid77 13:41, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

World not ready to fix edit-conflicts

Tangent from:  "/Archive_134#Let's fix edit-conflict problems".

I know we should avoid talking about other non-WMF wikis here, but when checking the Internet for ideas about how other websites were fixing edit-conflicts (not), I found, instead, that in 2013, "wiki = edit-conflict" (from MediaWiki), where numerous other wiki websites still have the bothersome edit-conflicts, with various help-pages to remind users what to do. So, if WP fixed the edit-conflicts, such as to auto-insert reply#2 after reply#1, then the rest of the world would not be prepared. Some, perhaps many, users think, "Edit-conflict is a type of collaboration which warns of busy activity" and if the edit-conflicts were fixed, then there might need to be a high-level note:

• Activity/hour: 12 editors, 25 edits

Yet, by having the software display a simple "Activity/hour" note, then people would realize when a page became "busy" without looking for "edit-conflict" as a reminder. However, the wiki world is not ready, and seems to have MediaWiki software trouble accepting auto-merged results (within 2 minutes), from what I have been reading in other wiki websites about their edit-conflict operations. I think we should just talk about how a wiki-edit screen should have looked, if designed by experienced computer professionals. In fact, if there were some "wiki-screen design competitions" then perhaps numerous new ideas would inspire some really important changes. Anyway, I designed a potential screen, below, under: "#How a wiki-edit screen should look". -Wikid77 (talk) 07:57/13:41, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

How a wiki-edit screen should look

I have been thinking to redesign the wiki-edit screen, after realizing how some users think "edit-conflict" is a valuable collaboration warning (!), alerting them to expect other edits, rather than a nuisance which cripples the rapid merging of multiple additions and updates. The basic concept behind the new wiki-screen is to assist collaboration, by showing data about prior edits (live in edit-preview), and put buttons where easy to reach, which has been very easy to improve:

Editing My article

[Show_preview]  [Show_changes]                      Activity/hour: 12 editors, 25 edits

___________________________________________________________________

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|                                                                                                                      |

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By clicking "Save_page" you agree to...

[Save_page]  [Show_preview]  [Show_changes]  Cancel | Editing help

Buffer: [4x80]   Page size: 23456b    Lines: 567    Wikilinks: 345

Prior edits: 03:45, 23 May 2013 - 03:36, 23 May 2013 - 20:15, 22 May 2013 - 09:07, 3 April 2013

At the top of the screen, there are the crucial buttons, repeated: [Show_preview] [Show_changes], where they are quick to click without requiring the clutter of the legal disclaimer, as long as "SAVE" is not up there, but only below after the legal wording.
At screen bottom, the option "Buffer: [7x80]" would reset the edit-buffer to that number of lines/columns (on any edit-preview). The data for "Page size:" and "Wikilinks" counter would confirm how large the page had become, as interesting to notice when a page is growing with quick additions by multiple editors, as size increases fast at each next edit.

By including the note of "Activity/hour" and the bottom links to the recent prior edits, then the user can determine the level of collaboration activity, and frequency of edits, without needing "edit-conflict" as a clue when many people were editing the same page. Eventually, after some weeks, or months, many people would begin to know what activity levels could indicate troublesome rampant edits, as shown by Activity/hour.
All data fields on the screen could be quickly available, during each cycle of edit-preview, when current templates are formatted into the preview page, and recent revisions would be checked. Plus rapid changes to the list of "Prior edits" would indicate how fast other revisions have been saved, and allow instant clicks to each, when an editor becomes worried that numerous other revisions might derail further edits. No longer would editors rely on "edit-conflict" as a kluge reminder of frequent other edits, and the numerous edits would be auto-merged, based on precise rules of FIFO (first-in, first-out) ordering, as users beware how the prior editor's reply (or added/deleted text) will be processed first, in order. In general, the wiki-edit screen should have been designed to gauge the level of collaboration, and instantly adapt to the presence of new revisions and editors, rather than using primitive manual treatment of edit-conflictitis to indicate a sick software system. I regret that other computer scientists did not properly redesign the screen years ago. However, if WP held a screen-design competition, then perhaps significant changes could be made within a few months, by giving people some new ideas about screen design. Once people are aware about shifting buttons to the top, or linking other revisions at bottom, then better designs will follow. The WMF developers are very capable and could implement new screens quickly. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:57, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Toronto

The article on the present mayor of TO is a mess right now. It has been brought up at BLPN. A bold admin may wish to lock it until the dust settles and possibly do some revdel. This article is a fine example of how the projects are becoming yellow journals. I don't feel we should be just another 'tabloid' but if consensus agrees then I assume we have no choice.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:45, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

The consensus around the policy that we are not a tabloid overrides any local consensus of POV pushing editors. (Note: I haven't looked at this particular article, so I know nothing of the particular state it is in - I'm just making a broader philosophical point.) It's always important to remember, too, that consensus is not "majority vote of whoever happens to show up" - people who are not here to build an encyclopedia, but to pursue some other agenda, should be shown the door and given no weight in discussions. Wikipedia is not a democracy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:36, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the prompt an concise response. I have noticed yellow journalism happening in many articles and we may be due for [WP:Project Indigo] to counter them. Since I may have your attention there are other issues that you may have an interest in at Help_talk:Contents#Images and the RfC at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content. These both concern images in articles which I try to focus on to avoid other drama. I have also started http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Canoe1967/Sculptors which seems to have some good support. I don't presume to expect your input on any of these other issues but you may wish to follow them as they progress.--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)