User talk:Brews ohare

On improving the editing climate

“I am not a champion of lost causes, but of causes not yet won.” Norman Thomas, quoted by Justice Sotomayor

“Substantial unanswered questions are raised when men seek ... solutions which are not based on real conditions.” RA Chikota & MC Moran

• On drafting clear sanctions   

• Filtering ArbCom cases     

• Handling minority views    

• What administrators should do 

• Trouble on WP: an open letter

“Increased democratic deliberation, based upon rewarding good political judgment ... harnesses the contest among ambitious leaders to the necessity of giving good advice” --- Peter Breiner Max Weber & democratic politics

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Tar babies

Br'er Rabbit meets the tar baby; an encounter with enforcement.

Arbitration ‘hearings’ are tar babies. Once you attract administrators' attention, residual attacks and arbitration follow you 'round like gnats in the Quebec woods.

Great to have you back!

Hey Brews. I just noticed you'd returned to editing and wanted to let you know that it's great having you back. I was never too clear on exactly what the ArbCom drama was all about and didn't want to interfere, but I'm glad that it's finally over. Anyway, hope you weren't too discouraged and that we'll be able to work on some articles again in the future. -Roger (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

How's it Hanging Brews?

Hey I was checking out the Citzendieum started by Larry Sanger. I'm not suggesting you leave wikipedia or anything of the sort but the way that site is set up with your credentials I think you would make a excellent addition to their Editor ranks. They require you to be a expert but you would have a part in reviewing submitted content and making sure it is correct. Not advocating for you, just figured to point out that you could also contribute there with your qualifications. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 08:42, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back to physics!

		Welcome back to physics!
		Count Iblis (talk) 21:36, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Merci

Merci pour la reconnaissance :) Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 22:53, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Barnstars³

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		In recognition of your inspirational, tireless and enthusiastic contributions in many diverse areas of Wikipedia. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 06:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

		The Graphic Designer's Barnstar
		In recognition of your many fine, tasteful and meticulous technical drawings which illuminate and illustrate so many scientific concepts. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 06:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

		The Technology Barnstar
		For your excellent contributions to science articles. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 06:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• I agree, they are well deserved. Brews ohare, please learn Portuguese and start editing in the Portuguese Wikipedia, because unlike here, there you will be welcome! AmigoDoPaulo (talk) 14:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Needed image

Hi Brews ohare! I need an image representing a positive feedback system (dual to your image about negative feedback, simply with "plus" instead the "minus" of the lower summer input). I would like to use it in positive feedback, Schmitt trigger and flip-flop pages. I also need an image representing 100% negative feedback system (without β in the feedback loop) to place it in emitter follower and voltage follower. Also, do you have any idea how to recreate this image using vector graphics as an SVG file? I have already installed Inkscape but I don't know how to open an existing image to edit it. Would you help me? Regards, Circuit dreamer (talk, contribs, email) 06:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi Circuit dreamer: My approach has been to use Microsoft Excel to draw the image and save it as a png or jpg file in Microsoft paint. For example, you possible can load the existing diagram and simply block out labels you don't want and re-save the file on WP commons using a new file name. I haven't learned how to do SVG, and haven't used Inkscape. I'd be happy to hear your advice about these tools. Brews ohare (talk) 14:53, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the responsiveness. Today I started working with Inkscape. I noted that if I right-click directly the image in the page, I can save it only as png or bitmap. But if I left-click it, then go to its page and left-click the link below the image, I can save it as svg and then to open it with Inkscape. I tried also to convert your bitmap image into curves using trace bitmap options of the program. But I haven't managed to select a separate object to duplicate or to delete it. Obviously, there is a lot to learn... Regards, Circuit dreamer (talk, contribs, email) 17:04, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

---

http://www.maa.org/devlin/devlin_06_04.html http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1004/1004.4704v1.pdf http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0704/0704.0646v2.pdf http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0404/0404617v2.pdf

WP:AE#Request concerning Brews ohare

Here we go again. Since you can't help but violate your topic ban, I've requested that you get blocked for the rest of it. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 01:48, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Please see my closure of this enforcement request, and let me know if you have any further comments. My conclusion is that you have agreed to make no more than one revert per article per week on anything in the natural sciences. In my mind, that includes mathematics. Your binding-voluntary ban expires at the same time as your topic ban from physics, that is, 22 August 2011. We have agreed to your stipulation that you may be blocked up to one week each time we decide that the new ban is violated. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 18:07, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

EdJohnston: Regardless of your personal definition of "natural sciences", they do not include mathematics according to the everyday understanding of this term. See here. The "natural sciences" are empirical in nature; mathematics is not. Brews ohare (talk) 15:33, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Obviously, my voluntary restriction was volunteered on the basis of the common interpretation of ordinary English. Brews ohare (talk) 16:08, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Very well. Please see WP:A/R/A#Request to amend prior case: Speed of light. T. Canens (talk) 16:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

This escalation of a minor dispute to the level of a Request to amend a prior case is unwarranted. The whole matter could be settled without such drama. As it turns out, this request for amendment has since been transformed into a completely different matter, that can no longer be viewed as a Request for amendment, but is in fact an entirely new Case based upon who knows what (no discovery has been done; it's all based upon gossip in secret among admins and bald assertions by vested interests). Brews ohare (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Proposed one-year ban

Following up on the above notification of the request, I'm leaving you this note to let you know that in response to the above amendment request, one of my colleagues has proposed a one-year ban for you. You may not have seen that proposal, so I'm formally notifying you here that this motion has been proposed, and to also give you a chance to make a statement. I, for one, will delay voting until you have had a chance to make a statement at that amendment page. Carcharoth (talk) 02:34, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

This one-year ban exceeds by far the actual proposal by Timotheus Canens, already far in excess of the voluntary restriction agreed to. There is no proportion here, but punishment without regard for the crime, a shucking of propriety and responsible adjudication. Brews ohare (talk) 00:44, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

It's not punishment, and there's no crime. It's just that you've made it more clear to more people that you and WP need some time apart. Dicklyon (talk) 06:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

What's clear to me is that you, Blackburne and Headbomb need to find a different target for your nonsense. Brews ohare (talk) 06:17, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Let's make one thing clear, I'm not hounding you, and I have never done so. I don't watch your page, nor do I stalk you through Special:Contributions/Brews ohare just to check if you violated your ban first thing in the morning. YOU violate your ban by doing things like editing WikiProject Physics' talk page, and making physics related edits on various articles I happen to have on my watchlist, then I react. If I was hounding you, don't you think I'd have reported you for the brouhaha you made at the Pythagorean theorem, or the cross product discussion thingamajig other people mentioned, or would have failed to notice that you edited Oliver Heaviside's article for weeks? If I was so hellbent on getting you banned, why did I give you a "free pass" when you edited WT:PHYS just a few weeks ago instead of jumping on the occasion to get you kicked out once again? That you insisted on screwing yourself over at ANI is your own fault.

And for general reference, the scope of ARBCOM proceedings are as wide and as flexible as the arbitrators deems the situation warrants. You had millions of chances, and you blew them all. Over the course of the last 16 or so months, you accused myself, JohnBlackburne, Sandstein, Timotheus Canens, Dicklyon, Michael C Price, Martin Hogbin, Psychim62, Finell, Dvdm, and countless others of being psychotic obsessive clueless maniacs devoid of judgment, or variants thereof, and the entirety of ARBCOM of being unable, unwilling, or otherwise unqualified to judge. Yet the possibility that you are the problem, and not the rest of the world does not even cross your mind. Even Count Iblis who stood by you most of the time wants a 0RR restriction on you and that doesn't make you flinch. You see yourself as the lone brave dissenter who dared speak against "Wikipedia establishment", in the veins of Galileo or Giordano Bruno, or perhaps as the fictitious Mikael Blomkvist who gets sentenced to prison through bureaucratic means because he stood up to corporate interests, but the reality is that you are more like that guy who climbs the Reichstag because he can't get his way.

And that's why you're getting kicked out. Reply or don't, but knowing you, you'll probably just revert this post or delete the section. Doesn't really matter to me.

I wish you all the best out there. A shame it had to come to this, but you forced our hand. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 08:09, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Ive just left a note of congratulations for headbomb on his page, his manipulations and exaggerations have finally worked and you have been sitebanned. Shame it had to happen this way but maybe now he's had his pound of flesh he'll leave others alone but I doubt it. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:49, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Headbomb: It's great that you have such a very positive self image. It is totally opposite to mine. According to me, you have hounded me incessantly over things as minor as adding a quote to the article on Heaviside, which you claimed was a physics-related topic violation because this man wrote physics papers. You promptly brought a case against me and then deleted the quote as a contribution from a "banned user". Wow, what a person is forced to do! The number of trivial actions you have brought is mind boggling, and for you to feel that you were "forced" to do that is, well, amazing to put it mildly, particularly because what you "had" to do was damaging to WP and to its editing climate. However, I congratulate you on your success in eliminating me from WP. I didn't think you would succeed, but WP administrators are not always wise, again to put it mildly. Brews ohare (talk) 14:54, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and your statement that I accused you and "countless others of being psychotic obsessive clueless maniacs devoid of judgment, or variants thereof, and the entirety of ARBCOM of being unable, unwilling, or otherwise unqualified to judge" is a fabrication from whole cloth, an accomplishment you have exhibited repeatedly in your testimony in cases, in which testimony your adherence to fact is not a strong point. Brews ohare (talk) 15:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration amendment: Site banned for one year

The Speed of light case is supplemented as follows:

Brews ohare (talk · contribs) is banned from Wikipedia for a period of one year.

Passed by motion 8 to 1 at 14:50, 18 November 2010 (UTC) On behalf of the Arbitration Committee Dougweller (talk) 14:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

November 2010

To enforce an arbitration decision, you have been blocked from editing for a period of one year. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing arbitration enforcement blocks and follow the instructions there to appeal your block. Dougweller (talk) 14:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

---

Notice to administrators: In a 2010 decision, the Committee held that "Administrators are prohibited from reversing or overturning (explicitly or in substance) any action taken by another administrator pursuant to the terms of an active arbitration remedy, and explicitly noted as being taken to enforce said remedy, except: (a) with the written authorization of the Committee, or (b) following a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard (such as WP:AN or WP:ANI). If consensus in such discussions is hard to judge or unclear, the parties should submit a request for clarification on the proper page. Any administrator that overturns an enforcement action outside of these circumstances shall be subject to appropriate sanctions, up to and including desysopping, at the discretion of the Committee."

And so a sparking mathematics edit of one sentence which Headbomb claimed was a physics topic-ban violation, a claim not supported by EdJohnston, among others, all of whom found this to be a mathematics related edit supported by mathematics books as sources, leads to a site ban. Amazing!. Brews ohare (talk) 15:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't expect you are particularly receptive to advice at this point, but this still need to be said so that you have an opportunity to reflect upon it before your eventual return: no single edit of yours led to a site ban; many many months of trying to skirt your restriction, of stoking old battles, and of complete refusal to accept even the possibility that your own behavior had a hand in your sanctions led to a site ban. — Coren ^(talk) 15:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, just to note: Any appeal of this ban must be addressed only to the Arbitration Committee (via their procedure given here) or to Jimbo Wales. NW (Talk) 15:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Welcome back

Nice seeing you back Brews. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 19:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Dr K: Thanks for the welcome. I hope to steer clear of my detractors. Brews ohare (talk) 20:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

A word of advice

Please consider easing back in. In particular, if you concentrate on your excellent work with illustrations and diagrams, you are very unlikely to end up in trouble. Return to editing to areas where you ran into trouble gradually, if at all, and the chances that things go amiss go down exponentially.

Welcome back. — Coren ^(talk) 20:26, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Coren: I appreciate your interest. As a "gradual" approach to areas where trouble has occurred in the past, my plan is not to avoid these areas entirely, as they are of great interest to me, but to avoid engaging in discussion with those editors that have demonstrated an unwillingness for conversation. That undoubtedly will mean abandoning some topics simply to avoid dispute, at the cost of seeing these matters inadequately presented on WP. However, it is entirely clear to me that any such engagement in which these editors choose to dispute with me can never be resolved on WP regardless of the merits, and will only result in ArbCom or ANI engagements that, in my view, are hopeless due to the unfortunate way these matters are handled here. Brews ohare (talk)

Welcome back!

		Welcome back!
		Count Iblis (talk) 02:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Count. I hope we may have some interesting dialog concerning article content. Brews ohare (talk) 14:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

And from me ... welcome. Abtract (talk) 18:22, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Hey, Abrtact, thank you. I hope we can enjoy one another's contributions as before; I hope to avoid most of the drama this time around. Brews ohare (talk) 20:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Welcome back

I may have jumped the gun last time, but I hope I'm getting things right now. Anyway, welcome back! -Roger (talk) 18:11, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Roger. I've always enjoyed working with you on our circuit interests. Brews ohare (talk) 18:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Edits to Talk:Speed of light

Just a reminder of the arbitration decision posted to WP:ARBSL as archived in this enforcement post. You should also take note of the advice given above, which I think is especially pertinent here.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 18:24, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi John: I have no intention of engaging in any discussion on this topic: however, there are problems on speed of light that need to be addressed by those that so diligently look after this article. Brews ohare (talk) 18:27, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

John Brews, you can satisfy your need to advise on speed of light, and still abide by your indefinite ban on posting there, by posting your suggestions here on your talk page. I'm sure anyone who cares will watch and notice. Dicklyon (talk) 18:33, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Dick: Thanks for that suggestion, which had not occurred to me. However, beyond my reverted attempt to point out some difficulties with the article, I don't intend to engage. Having discovered how editors react at Talk:Speed of light, I predict that any engagement there would be futile. Brews ohare (talk) 18:46, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

I would advice Brews to avoid lengthy arguments that go nowhere. It is ok. to kick off a discussion, but then read carefully what the feedback is. If you find that you need to repeat things that you have already posted, that's already a red flag. Only if you think that what you wrote was not properly understood, you could think about clarifying that, but after that point, it's best to conclude that issue. In this case, you won't be able to clarify in the lead the definition of the vacuum, some weeks ago I also made a comment about that, but the consensus is that the lead shouldn't be too technical.

But, of course, Brews does have the right to at least raise an issue, even if it has already been discussed 2 years ago. The problem was never starting a discussion but ending it, which often involves having to accept that there is a lack of consensus for improving an article. You can't override that by arguing more, because this is ultimately a matter of taste. So, if the editors want to keep things simple in the lead, you can say that you don't agree with that, but it is then not productive to continue arguing why it should still be changed. Count Iblis (talk) 19:03, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Count: Excellent advice. I am subject to repeating myself when it really is of no use. Brews ohare (talk) 19:10, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the right to bring things up doesn't extend to pages from which you are indefinitely banned. Dicklyon (talk) 19:40, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Note that I did edit some pages some time ago on related issue, like here where explicit formulae are given for the effective index of refraction in vacuum in the presence of a magnetic field. Wikipedia lacks a lot of content on such advanced topics, so there is a lot of work to do.

Also, within classical electrodynamics, you could think about creating a new article based on this recent article on the self-force. This is an old problem that was until recently never satisfactorily solved. After the development of quantum electrodynamics, this became an obsolete topic, so it was ignored. But, now that the problem has been solved, you could think about re-organizing all the Wiki-articles on this topic, like the one on Abraham-Lorenz force etc. etc. as they are actually wrong. Count Iblis (talk) 20:18, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

These are interesting suggestions. Of course, the improvement of these articles involves some serious research on my part, so I'll have to see whether the itch to do that develops in me. As you may have noted, my comments on the speed of light article are in the nature of conceptual difficulties and not detailed appraisal of the experimental impact of these problems. Brews ohare (talk) 14:05, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Your article has been moved to AfC space

Hi! I would like to inform you that the Articles for Creation submission which was previously located here: User:Brews ohare/Wikipedia: Formal organization has been moved to Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Wikipedia: Formal organization, this move was made automatically and doesn't affect your article, if you have any questions please ask on my talk page! Have a nice day. ArticlesForCreationBot (talk) 15:10, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Wikipedia: Formal organization

Hello Brews ohare, I came across Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Wikipedia: Formal organization. Did you intend to have this moved to mainspace, or did you want it in Wikipedia space? Best, Alpha_Quadrant ^(talk) 22:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Alpha Quadrant: I don't know how to answer that. Got some advice? Brews ohare (talk) 22:54, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Heh, I marked that essay under being reviewed since we have some new and unexperienced reviewers. I checked the essay and it looks not bad (except the case that there is a unneeded whitespace in the title and the essay notice box at the top is missing). I'm willing to move it - but OTOH I'm really not sure, if we need another essay - especially on our organization structure. Maybe the essay should be merged into a mainspace article like Community of Wikipedia, Wikipedia, or any other article I might not notice. I won't do anything with the article, if you say move it, i will move it; if you say "decline it" I will decline it - I will wait on your response ;) mabdul 14:58, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi Mabdul:

I think the right place for this article is as a part of Wikipedia. If you agree, the nutshell banner should be removed, and that text made part of the first paragraph. I have edited the article accordingly. Hope you will transfer it. Brews ohare (talk) 15:43, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Wikipedia:Formal organization, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

• The article has been assessed as C-Class, which is recorded on the article's [[Talk:Wikipedia:Formal organization|talk page]]. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.
• You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. Note that because you are a logged-in user, you can create articles yourself, and don't have to post a request. However, you are more than welcome to continue submitting work to Articles for Creation.
• If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the Help desk or on the reviewer's talk page
• If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider

Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia!

Kevin Rutherford (talk) 18:17, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Graphic design

Hi Brews! I am here to compliment you on your spectacular graphics, and to ask advice.

I am a very visual person and I think as much in diagrams as in words, but on Wikipedia I am handicapped by being completely illiterate in the area of digital graphics. I am an aeronautical engineer and I run Microsoft Windows 7 on my PC. Can you suggest how I might get into graphics with a view to ultimately being able to produce diagrams of the kind I see on your User page? Many thanks for any advice. I will watch your Talk page for your reply. Dolphin (t) 05:38, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Dolphin: My approach to graphics is not very sophisticated. I use Microsoft Excel to draw the pictures. The early versions like '97 aren't good, but the '03 and later versions have good control over color and line widths.

Once the picture is drawn, I copy it and paste it into Microsoft Paint as a .PNG file. I save that file in My Pictures folder. Then I can find it using the UPLOAD FILE link on the Wikimedia Commons and follow the directions there.

I takes a while to get the hang of the various features of Excel. Mainly I use the "Shapes" & "Text Box" icons and the various menus for adding color, adjusting linewidth and so forth. You can use Ctrl & Shift simultaneously to select multiple items and the "Group" feature to make them behave as one unit to move them around together. The right mouse button lets you move things to the front or back, so you can assemble layers of items.

Hope you have fun with this. Brews ohare (talk) 07:15, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Brews! That sounds like a great challenge so I am off to have a go right now. Dolphin (t) 11:33, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Sour grapes at WP:Talk:Notability

Brews, It is clear that your are passionate about this notability issue. This statement says it all: Well, its great to see two old "nemeses" reach agreement. But about what exactly? Rather than consider the possibility that notability could be established by various means, the agreement is that notability is "what people talk about" and is quite separate from "importance". Well folks, IMO that position really just means that the status quo is so important to you all that any nonsense can be resorted to in its support. Perhaps fortunately, WP is replete with articles that do not satisfy the present notability requirements. So perhaps the de facto situation on WP is wiser than the de jure version, eh? But it comes off as a bit of sour grapes. You asked a question on a talk page and three experienced editors took their time to answer your question as they see practice in WP. The fact that you have some fundamental disagreement with WP practice is perfectly OK (I have a shopping list of such disagreement). But it is not OK to chastise individual editors for their views, especially when they are trying to explain them and help someone else understand. There are avenues for changing policies and guidelines in WP, but they aren't easy because our practice has 11 years of success behind it. The three of us that responded to your question aren't in your way, its an entire community of 136,000 active editors that you must convince. However those discussions occur, you've got to respect and understand other members of the community positions, just like we will respect and try to understand yours. Acceptance of one or the other position is above and beyond that. --Mike Cline (talk) 16:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Mike: I do respect the participants (though not their positions) and consider it a privilege to engage in such discussions. I do not think, however, that the examples I brought forward were carefully considered, and also am of the opinion that you three express a united view neither well formed nor based upon an awareness of what is needed. Rather, it is a simple repetition of the existing policy as a sacred text without examination of its purposes and effect.

Thanks for engaging here. Brews ohare (talk) 16:34, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Forum shopping

Please be aware that much of your talk page actions of the last several days would fall under the undesirable behavior as forum shopping, seemingly based on the simple movement of WP:Formal organization from main space to Wikipedia space; from there you took it to WT:NOR ([1]) (and an attempt to delete United States Attorney [2]), to WT:N ([3]) to creating your own notability guideline User:Brews ohare/WP:Notability (Descriptive articles), and now back again to WT:NOR ([4]).

This is a classic definition of forum shopping because you are not getting the answers you want for a specific case. This type of behavior is not appropriate and if you continue to engage in it, you may be blocked from editing.

On the specific issue, several editors including myself have tried to explain what the consensus is, and - ultimately back to the original point - why the Formal Organization article was moved out of mainspace. You need to recognize that the consensus weighs towards keeping this in Wikipedia space. Several pieces of advice for potentially bringing this article or something like it into mainspace have been given and you should how you could write such an article knowing this advice. --MASEM (t) 20:59, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Masem:You totally mischaracterize my discussions in your lead paragraph, trying to make my discussion of various policies part of a ridiculous lobbying activity. I frankly cannot fathom where you got these ideas. In addition, you have completely ignored my stated intentions and falsely claim that I tried to have United States Attorney deleted. Please notice that I made comments on its Talk page and elsewhere that flatly contradict your statements.

I don't give a hoot what happens to WP:Formal organization. I regard this article as a gift of mine to WP to help it explain itself, an article it needs and no-one was interested in writing, and WP can use it to explain its organization or trash it as WP sees fit. I am not going to lobby for its introduction to mainspace.

My purpose in writing on WP:Primary, WP:NOR and WP:Notability is to make these guidelines make sense. Sometimes I have used WP:Formal organization as an example to illustrate where I think these policies need revision.

That is the only reason I have brought this article up.

I am really disappointed that you should search for some strange motive in my actions. I am even more disturbed that you should overture a violation of WP conduct. That is really a nasty step.

If you feel that discussion of possible revisions of WP policies is so distasteful that you must resist reform not on the merits but by actions like you have begun here, that is indeed sad. An administrator like yourself should be among those anxious to see the discussion of policies vigorously pursued to help WP evolve.

Brews ohare (talk) 21:12, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

But it clearly follows the typical pattern of forum shopping. Each step can been seen trying to get the answer you want to bring back the Formal Organization back to mainspace, by first challenging the primary sourcing policy, to challenging exceptions to notability, to trying to create your own notability guideline, to challenging what the definition of primary/secondary sources are. You've abandoned the previous discussions in moving to the next one.

Mind you, you may not be doing this intentionally, and that's why I wrote this as a caution and not an ultimatum. But the reason I wrote it is that, say, if you start another discussion from the current WT:OR one about what are primary sources on yet another talk page, you will likely see yourself blocked for this.

Note that there's a difference between "making sure the guidelines make sense" and "changing the guidelines". The former is completely acceptable, but that's not what you're doing. You're challenging the guidelines - which is fine, we are to be open to new ideas - but doing it in a manner that begs "I want it this way", and seemingly when you get a rejection, take it elsewhere. Again, you may be doing it unintentionally or without realizing that forum shopping is discouraged, which is understandable, but you are now aware this is not a good practice to do. The better way to try to gain consensus on what you are doing is to create a centralized discussion and notify appropriate talk pages to bring discussion there. But you should figure out and spell out what exactly you want to change or add on specific pages, instead of just challenging "this guideline is a problem" which is what your current approach is doing. --MASEM (t) 21:33, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Backoff - both of you

Unfortunately I didn't get this in before Masem's last edit but it still applies. Masem, you raised the point civily, you need not further elaborate or respond. Brews, a member of the community perceived you were forum shopping. Only you can decide whether you were or not, I don't care, but perceptions can sometimes be warning signs to be considered. But aggressively defending yourself as you did isn't necessary either. Its actual behavior that counts here. Neither of you need respond to this other than continue productively editing the encyclopedia. --Mike Cline (talk) 21:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Mike: Thanks for your comment. My reaction is strong because threats of misconduct are both alarming and misplaced, and I have been subject in the past to arbitrary actions taken on slight pretext.

I will not comment further upon policy at this time. Of course, policy should be vigorously examined, but acts of intimidation like this suppress discussion. Brews ohare (talk) 21:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Notes

I have included these notes for use in the event of some sudden administrative action.

My attempts at policy modification began on WP:NOR with an RfC that led to the suggestion that Notability was the issue. Discussion on Notability led to Masem's introduction of sub-guidelines, something whose existence I was unaware of, and as a result I proposed to draft a guideline myself. That can be found among my user pages. Discussion on that Talk page led Blueboar to suggest a problem existed with primary sources. At that point I went to the Talk page there to bring up that issue, and informed Blueboar that I had done so. Discussion there proceeded normally, and I discovered following comments by Paul Siebert that the distinction between primary and secondary sources was really important only to the policy WP:Notability, bringing me back to that policy. This evolution of discussion was just too much for Masem, who then decided to interrupt these actions of mine. Ignoring WP policy Assume good faith, Masem challenged my explicitly stated reasons for a change in policy, suggesting my actions were not genuine, but stemmed from desire to move WP:Formal organization to mainspace. His 'clairvoyance' reclassified my actions as misconduct, including as misconduct even my creation of a User page. The basis for his insight into my motives is a so-called pattern in my activities explicable in Masem's mind not as a natural progression of discussion, but more probably explained as Forum shopping that required his administrative intervention. My explicitly stated reasons for why I thought policy changes were needed were classified as subterfuge, not policy deficiency. In a rather unrelated accusation intended to buttress his view that I was disruptive, Masem further alleged that I had attempted deletion of United States Attorney, in flat contradiction to my own remarks on its Talk page and, of course, despite there being no formal request for deletion. Administrator Masem's interruption apparently was encouraged by editor Fifelfoo's substantial contribution that this discussion of policy was "silly and needs to stop", a view bandwagoned later by editor Djathinkimacowboy.

It is apparent that any further attempt to clarify these policies will be taken as disruptive, so the matter must be dropped. All of my interactions have been on Talk pages or in my own user space, arenas nominally reserved for open discussion, ostensibly intended for civil exchanges of viewpoint, free from administrative intimidation. Brews ohare (talk) 22:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Re: Calgary-Fish Creek question

Brews, Re Calgary-Fish Creek. The WP community suffers from a syndrome that is common in large collaborative enterprises—we unintentionally use a lot of ambiguous language. The language is ambiguous—open to or having several possible meanings or interpretations; equivoca—because we have co-opted terminology from everyday language and repurposed it to the needs of WP. Primary and secondary sources are a good example of that. Notability is the classic example. In the case of sources, if you are an historian, you know exactly what is considered a primary source in your discipline—old newspaper accounts, interviews, diaries, journals, etc. In the sciences, it’s different. Primary sources are the raw data, the experiments, individual observations, hypothesizes etc. In every academic discipline, what is considered a primary source is different. Outside academia or research type disciplines, primary-secondary sources have little meaning. Unfortunately WP (an encyclopedia—a tertiary source) lumps all this together with two simple labels—primary and secondary. So when we begin to apply these ideas of notability which depends on the use of secondary sources independent of the topic, we sometimes create confusion—what sources are primary and what sources are secondary, what sources are independent? For articles like Calgary-Fish Creek the distinction isn’t all that clear. And within WP, in fact I believe that many primary sources in one context, can indeed be secondary in another context.

So if we look at Calgary-Fish Creek from a notability standpoint, we can say this. 1) it is notable because there is a presumption that political sub-divisions have been discussed in secondary sources independent of the topic. 2) it has not been nominated for deletion (CSD, PROD, or AfD). 3) if it had been nominated, is was not deleted. If we look at the sources in the article, I would consider all the Alberta Heritage Foundation sources to be secondary and independent of the topic. Although some of the Elections Alberta are secondary, they might not be considered independent of the topic but I think they are. However, the first source: "E 4.1". Statutes of the Province of Alberta. Government of Alberta. 2003. p. 10. would be considered secondary and independent of the topic in the WP context. Why would I say that? Well it compiles a lot of data from other primary sources—legislative hearings, surveys, etc. It is independent of Calgary-Fish Creek, in other words, Calgary-Fish Creek as a political sub-division did not create or significantly influence the contents of the source. Does this seem confusing? Indeed it is when one thinks about these terms in contexts outside the realm of WP. Here’s where I think the confusion arises. There are really only two types of articles where the secondary sources might not be independent of the topic—people and enterprises—governments, companies and corporations, associations, international associations, non-profits, etc. Both people and enterprises can publish or influence published information about themselves in secondary sources. Battles, histories, biology, science, geology, geography, social and cultural stuff etc. type articles don’t publish or influence any sources, thus all sources on the topic are inherently independent of the topic. No source on the Anna’s Hummingbird could be considered not independent of the topic. So in the case of Calgary-Fish Creek, a political sub-division (in this case an electoral district), is it an enterprise or a description of geography, much like a mountain peak, a lake or a river. I suspect is much more geography than an enterprise. In fact I can’t even find anything that describes Calgary-Fish Creek as an enterprise.

So where does that leave us? Well first, WP’s inclusion criteria are actually pretty liberal and straightforward. However, it is only so if you leave your notion of primary and secondary sources that you carry from the outside world at the door. In WP, the distinction between them is purely contextual. You also have to accept that many classes of articles carry a presumption of notability if the topic is a member of the class (people and enterprises are the glaring exception here). Geography is one of those classes. If a named mountain exists, it is presumed notable—discussed in secondary sources—otherwise it wouldn’t exist as a named mountain.

I don’t know if this helps, but it was fun thinking about it. --Mike Cline (talk) 15:54, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Mike: Thanks for your answer, which shows you've thought about the topic.

Although you have concluded that you have constructed a rationale for Calgary-Fish Creek being notable based upon WP's usage, I personally find it far too complicated to be reassuring. Any such argument for notability on WP would not get past first base if there were a few editors that wanted this article off the encyclopedia on the grounds that it wasn't notable. The discussion of notability either would never end, or end with the defender in AN/I for tendentious editing.

One of the problems on WP is these arguments between editors, which could be settled if things like "notability" were clear-cut on WP, regardless of what definition that was, regardless of its relation to usage anywhere else. Then any ass could see if an article were notable or not, and argument wouldn't happen.

Instead, the actual de facto test of notability is whether the article has survived on WP, either after being challenged, or because it never got anybody interested enough to challenge it. In other words, there is no easy definition of "notability" on WP, whatever the policy claims, and it is only by experiment that one finds if an article has this quality, and that is an attribute that may be withdrawn at any time, given an adroit campaign to remove it.

It may be there is no way to resolve these useless quarrels on WP, but clear policy would be one way. Perhaps the policy should be rewritten until it proves by experiment with the policy to (i) be clear enough that argument is greatly reduced, and (ii) serves as a filter for desirable vs. undesirable articles. At present, on WP unending debate about policy changes occurs, based upon speculation & hypotheticals about what some particular change might cause to happen. These debates usually prevent substantial evolution of the policies. Policies are inflexible on this account, and fruitless debate denies WP one mechanism to evolve to fit the demands upon it. Construction of means to adapt policy is broken.

Maybe we need a provision on WP that allows the evolution of policy by experiment: actually collect evidence on the effect of policy changes, in place of rhetoric?

In fact, it might be possible to look at articles presently on WP and try to classify them regarding notability issues to see what the de facto notability situation is? One could even elect to test the existing articles for notability by challenging their notability and seeing what arguments come up? Doubtless that would be considered a "disruption" of WP unless there were some support for such an effort. Brews ohare (talk) 16:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Brews, have you ever looked at WP:Outcomes? Seems like that's what you are talking about above. --Mike Cline (talk) 16:55, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Mike: I wasn't aware of this page; I'll take a look at it. Thanks. Brews ohare (talk) 17:08, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Mike: It appears that WP:Outcomes is an unofficial guide as to what is notable and what is not. I'd say that Calgary-Fish Creek doesn't fit into any of the listed categories. Neither do the various descriptions of official offices, or laws on certain subjects. It seems likely that the list at WP:Outcomes could be expanded significantly.

Also, as an unofficial document, should a challenge come up and this page be cited as supporting retention, I suspect it will not be accepted as definitive over the challengers claims that the article should be deleted as not notable.

Do you agree with my notion of the content of this page? Brews ohare (talk) 00:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

AN/I notice

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 21:24, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Copy and paste move

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you recently tried to give User talk:Brews ohare/sandbox a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into Wikipedia talk:Avoiding talk-page disruption. This is known as a "cut and paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is needed for attribution and various other purposes. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page. This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Wikipedia:Cut and paste move repair holding pen. Thank you. JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 18:16, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Note about proposed guideline

Despite how inappropriate I think "Comment 8" was, I wanted to point out that it actually is pretty unlikely that this will be promoted to a guideline. Behavioral guidelines are very limited to general statements like assuming good fiath, and a page that suggests a manner of response on a talk page in any more specific terms than that is something the community will consider too restrictive for an actual guideline (since guidelines do have "power" for lack of a better word). All pages with content comparable to yours are thus far essays, and there are a lot of them -- including quite a few long-standing and oft-linked essays that probably have much more of a chance at being promoted, and yet still, will never be. Knowing that, I see it as excessively optimistic to write an original page like this one and immediately propose that it become a guideline. I think you might consider settling for an essay, which as a bonus, will probably be less likely to garner the kind of negative attention you're getting now. Equazcion ^(talk) 17:42, 22 Mar 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the observations. I'd hoped for a wider interest in this topic, but aside from yourself and Diego I've had only the attention of Blackburne, who is opposed to the matter because it impacts his standard modus operandi of citing a policy and responding to requests for clarification with "Go read the policy". Further requests for clarification result in AN/I actions, that sometimes prove successful. I was interested to see how completely frank Blackburne is about his approach to such matters.

I have little knowledge of how WP works, but I do understand that policies and guidelines are nearly impossible to introduce or change, with discussion of proposals usually degenerating into completely irrelevant and inconsequential babble. If there is no further interest in this proposal as a guideline, I guess an essay will be all that is left. Brews ohare (talk) 17:55, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Dispute resolution survey

Dispute Resolution – Survey Invite Hello Brews ohare. I am currently conducting a study on the dispute resolution processes on the English Wikipedia, in the hope that the results will help improve these processes in the future. Whether you have used dispute resolution a little or a lot, now we need to know about your experience. The survey takes around five minutes, and the information you provide will not be shared with third parties other than to assist in analyzing the results of the survey. No personally identifiable information will be released. Please click HERE to participate. Many thanks in advance for your comments and thoughts. You are receiving this invitation because you have had some activity in dispute resolution over the past year. For more information, please see the associated research page. Steven Zhang DR goes to Wikimania! 11:43, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Reference formatting style

John, where did you get your unique style of formatting references? I haven't encountered anything like it from other editors in all my years at WP, and I find it very confusing to see major source-level breaks that look like paragraph breaks, inside references. Do you think you could move to a more normal style, for better compatibility with collaborators? Dicklyon (talk) 15:47, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I just use the template {{cite book}}. I separate the citation from the text for ease in editing. The better way is to use {{reflist |refs = }} format that places all the reference info in its own section at the bottom of the page. Of course there are other approaches like the Harvard reference system, but I haven't used that enough to make it second nature. Brews ohare (talk) 15:52, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

It's the way you "separate the citation from the text" that idiosyncratic. Nobody does that. As for putting all the refs at the end, I've never seen that, either. I bet that would be harder to maintain; you'd have to edit two sections just to add a ref. Dicklyon (talk) 15:57, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Better as in how? The vast majority of articles use inline references as it works and is far easier to maintain. If you prefer it that's fine but like other formatting changes you should never change the formatting or style of existing references based on your personal preference, per WP:CITEVAR. --JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 16:23, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Blackburne: It's nice of you to undertake the patrol duties to enforce what you like, but in this case the references were all added and formatted by myself. So, in fact, you contravened the very principle you tried to enforce. Brews ohare (talk) 21:47, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Your idea of what is easier to maintain is contrary to my own: the text is kept clean and easier to maintain with the {{reflist |refs= }} format that keeps ref info out of the text, and so are the references themselves. The main complication of this approach is use of named references <ref name =ThisRef></ref>instead of simply <ref></ref>. Another advantage of this system is that you can group footnotes in categories using, for example, <ref name=ThisRef group=Note></ref> and {{reflist|group=Note|refs= }}. Brews ohare (talk) 22:00, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree. It is also my preferred style. A few examples: Psilocybin, a featured article uses this style. Also Adolf Hitler. I borrowed this style and adopted it for my articles. See Aspioti-ELKA, Temple of Artemis (Corfu) etc. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's your opinion and preferences, and based on how they are used in 99% (I estimate) of articles your preferences are shared by few. What I like has nothing to do with it: you shouldn't change the format of references or anything, per WP:Stability, simply to suit your own preferences.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 22:16, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

It is undeniable that the format Brews and I use makes editing much easier by eliminating the bulk of the citation from the main article corpus. It may well be that few people know about the advantages of this format or are even unaware of it. For instance I think that the article of Adolf Hitler was converted to the new format relatively recently. You can ask user:Diannaa about it. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 22:23, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

If that were really so then I think it would be much more prevalent in articles, as well as recommended or even mandated in the formatting guidelines, as has happened with many other things (straight vs. curly quotes, references before or after punctuation). But the guidelines are clear: there are many ways to do references, none is better, and editors should not change the style from one to another without some reason other than their personal preferences.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 22:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I think that the reason exists but this is not the place to debate the merits of this method or of the alternatives. However I agree that any massive change, even for the better, should be a matter of consensus between editors and it should not be imposed unilaterally. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 23:40, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you guys are going on about. There's nothing in the Psilocybin article that resembles the ref source spacing style that I was talking about. I believe this "style" is unique to Brews. As to whether you group refs at the end or not, that's an entirely different matter, distracting from my point. Dicklyon (talk) 00:12, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

To be truthful I did not check your comments in particular, but rather Brews' explanations of the code he used. That's where I based my reply on, not your comments. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 00:57, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

What you are talking about, Dick, is simply whether one writes a reference in line as <ref>

{{cite book | blah |blah |blah}}

</ref> or writes it <ref>

{{cite book

|blah

|blah

|blah }}

</ref>

Why do you care?

What Blackburne is "going on" about is that he reverted my choice of formatting references without realizing they were mine to make, on the pretext of moral superiority, and now wants to trumpet his superiority, even though based upon his personal misappraisal of the situation. Brews ohare (talk) 00:59, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

No, in your attempt to show it, you're not displaying how it looks in the source, where the reference text is floating, away from the tags, looking like a paragraph. It makes the visual organization of the source text very unusual and confusing. More like this:

The motion of an object can be considered to be a signal, and can be monitored by various sensors to provide electrical signals.<ref name= Lu>

For an example from robotics, see K Nishio and T Yasuda (2011). "Analog-digital circuit for motion detection based on vertebrate retina and its application to mobile robot". In Bao-Liang Lu, Liqing Zhang, James Kwok (ed.). Neural Information Processing: 18th International Conference, Iconip 2011, Shanghai,china, November 13-17, 2011. Springer. pp. 506 ff. ISBN 3642249647.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (link)

</ref>For example, [[radar]] can provide an electromagnetic signal for following aircraft motion.

Although, in the recent article in question, you didn't put that first empty line after <ref> as you usually do; just the lower one before </ref> Dicklyon (talk) 02:56, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I undid your change based on policy, cited and explained above. As for "moral superiority" and "trumpet his superiority" you perhaps need to read another policy, WP:NPA and reconsider your comments.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 01:16, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

John, you probably missed that I had just changed one ref format before Brews changed it back. I was trying to illustrate a good way to do it. I remain unclear on whether it's OK for an editor to maintain a completely idiosyncratic style of his own. This has bugged me about him for years (since 2009), but never before rose to the top of my list of reasons to change or revert his contributions. So that's progress, isn't it? Dicklyon (talk) 02:56, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

"*Comments" subheadings

Please stop inserting these between comments. They are unnecessary, interfere with the proper threaded conversation, are not normally used in talk page conversations and have been removed by two editors so we already have a third opinion that they are not needed. I would also note that this edit re-added them without explanation and marked the edit as minor. Contentious edits should always be explained and never marked as minor. Your last edit summary, re-adding them because you were "the one originiting [sic] this discussion" is irrelevant as no-one owns the discussion or the talk page, per WP:OWN.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 02:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Blackburne: The comment headers separate comments by different individuals with their back-and-forths, which helps me keep track of who says what. You don't like it. So what? I requested the feedback, and it helps me. It doesn't interfere with anyone else (maybe you excepted). So what are you up to here? I'm sure you love to enforce your own ideas about what is "proper procedure" but there is no hard and fast on this matter. Your citation of WP:OWN is another example of your stretching policies to suit yourself. Brews ohare (talk) 05:39, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Arbitration request for clarification

I have raised the recent discussions concerning you at Wavelength and its talk page here

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification#Request_for_clarification:_Wikipedia:Arbitration.2FRequests.2FCase.2FSpeed_of_light

--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 00:17, 16 May 2012 (UTC)