Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests

Request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution. Before requesting arbitration, please review other avenues you should take. If you do not follow any of these routes, it is highly likely that your request will be rejected. If all other steps have failed, and you see no reasonable chance that the matter can be resolved in another manner, you may request that it be decided by the Arbitration Committee.

Arbitration Committee proceedings

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Case requests

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

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Open cases

Case name	Links	Evidence due	Prop. Dec. due
Venezuelan politics	(t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t)	20 Apr 2024	04 May 2024

[edit]

Recently closed cases (Past cases)

Case name	Closed
Conflict of interest management	13 Apr 2024
Mzajac	7 May 2024

Clarification and Amendment requests

Request name	Motions	Case	Posted
Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing	none	(orig. case)	30 April 2024
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 4	none	(orig. case)	8 May 2024

Arbitrator motions

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and (exceptionally) to summarily review new evidence and update the findings and decisions of a previous case. Review is likely to be appropriate if later events indicate the original ruling on scope or enforcement was too limited and does not adequately address the situation, or if new evidence suggests the findings of fact were significantly in error.

The procedure for accepting requests is described in the Arbitration policy. If you are going to make a request here, you must be brief and cite supporting diffs. New requests to the top, please. You are required to place a notice on the user talk page of each person you lodge a complaint against.

0/0/0/0 corresponds to Arbitrators' votes to accept/reject/recuse/other.

This is not a page for discussion, and Arbitrators may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.

• Arbitration policy
• Administrator enforcement requested (shortcut WP:RFAr/AER)
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• Arbitration template
• Wikipedia:Arbitration policy/Precedents

How to list cases

Under the below Current requests section:

• Click "[edit]";
• Copy the full formatting template (text will be visible in edit mode), omitting the lines which say "BEGIN" and "END TEMPLATE";
• Paste template text where it says "ADD CASE BELOW";
• Follow instructions on comments (indented), and fill out the form;
• Remove the template comments (indented).

Note: Please do not remove or alter the hidden template

Current requests

---

Cartesian materialism

cartesian materialism

Involved parties

Loxley and Alienus

Informed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Alienus&oldid=34101733

Mediation has been tried:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/06_12_2005_Alienus_and_Loxley_edit_war_over_Dennett_and_Philosophy_of_the_Mind

However, even though this is fundamentally a content dispute, Wikipedia:Requests for comment has not been tried. Alienus is willing to retract his block request to try an RfC first.

The comment above was by Alienus. This is not a content dispute. It is just plain bad practice to introduce an idea that is two centuries old according to the definitions of its principle opponent in the 1990s. I am happy to see Dennett's views aired fully later in the text and have included them in detail with full links. Wikipedia is not here to promulgate a particular agenda. loxley 17:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, there is even a dispute about the nature of the dispute. Oddly enough, his response focuses on content, so I don't know what he thinks the problem is. I do see this as a content dispute, fundamentally. I am unhappy with Loxley's habit of erasing all of my contributions and not willing to accept the low quality of content that he replaces it with.

Contrary to what he just now added, there is a very long record of his hatred of Dennett and his demonstrated unwillingness to allow Dennett's ideas into articles except in the most misleadingly denigrated manner; see my response for citations. Yes, Wikipedia is not here to promulgate a particular agenda, but Loxley sure is. Which makes this, yes, a content dispute. Anyhow, I'm done here for now. If Loxley doesn't make any more changes, neither will I. Alienus 20:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Loxley

The dispute is that Alienus appears to be rigging this article towards the ideas of one philosopher, Daniel Dennett, and insists upon using Dennett's views to define the concept. Daniel Dennett produced a definition of Cartesian materialism that was hostile to the concept of Cartesian materialism from the outset. It was framed as part of an attack on Cartesian materialism known as the Multiple Drafts Model. I am happy to see this negative definition of Cartesian materialism included in the article once Cartesian materialism has been explained.

The broad issue here is whether a peculiar definition of a concept that has been put forward solely with the purpose of undermining that concept should be used as an introductory definition of the concept. (For instance: The world is a flat disk that some commentators have erroneously considered to be spherical).

Specifically, I would like to see this text which includes Dennett's ideas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cartesian_materialism&oldid=34098628

Rather than this text:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cartesian_materialism&oldid=34099211

which summarises Cartesian materialism in terms of Dennett's quote: "By this definition, Cartesian materialism is "the view that there is a crucial finish line or boundary somewhere in the brain, marking a place where the order of arrival equals the order of "presentation" in experience because what happens there is what you are conscious of".

This is not a content dispute. The content of the two articles is very similar. The dispute is about avoiding the bad practice of introducing an idea from the viewpoint of its chief opponent.

As an aside, I have been insulted and patronised by the other party. Alienus is an expert at "edit wars", he started this edit war with an accusation that "Loxley" was about to begin an edit war, he reverts having made small, erroneous changes or major changes that amount to reverts then accuses me of making reverts rather than revisions. You have got to admire his skill at operating the Wikipedia environment. loxley 12:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Alienus

Loxley has shown a hostility towards the work of Daniel Dennett and has consistently misunderstood and downplayed Dennett's ideas in articles. The historical record shows that I have made an honest effort to integrate Loxley's contributions into articles (mostly recently here), while Loxley has reverted my changes outright [1].

At this point, he has created a private version [2] of the Cartesian materialism article that he periodically overwrites the real article with as part of the edit war he launched. The real article [3] is accurate and fair. It's also well-written, properly cited and even integrates Loxley's work. In contrast, Loxley's private version includes outright errors (such as claiming Dennett endorses Direct Realism), and is poorly organized and referenced. It is essentially what the article would look like if all of my input, however well cited, were disregarded.

I started off quite patiently with Loxley, but I admit that I have lost my patience. As soon as he launched an all-out edit war, I backed off and sought mediation. Unfortunately, this has not succeeded in keeping him from vandalizing these articles in an attempt to censor Dennett and instill his POV spin. Oh, and rather than some hardened edit warrior, it turns out that I'm a fairly new participant who's trying to make a difference instead of butt heads.

The fact of the matter is that Dennett is a key part of the curriculum in philosophy of the mind classes at many major institutions [4] and his views are entirely relevant to these articles, but Loxley insists that he's just a "flash in the pan" [5] and has made a career here attacking [6] and censoring [7] Dennett. This extreme bias overwhelms any positive aspects of Loxley's contributions. Fundamentally, Loxley has little grasp of the material, is incapable of objectivity and is unwilling to cooperate. He has become a menace.

At this point, I am asking that Loxley be blocked from editing any articles that involve Dennett, and encouraged to avoid those on the overall fields of philosophy of the mind and cognitive science. I'd like to focus on improving these articles further, rather than wasting my time fixing the messes he makes. Alienus 13:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Please note that Loxley has carefully removed a personal attack he made on me in this very page. He does this a lot, to make himself look better after the fact. I've taken the liberty of restoring the censored text, albeit with strikethroughs, so that you can see how paranoid and hostile he was. You might also want to look through the history to see how he added the claim that this isn't a content dispute only after I suggested that it might be. Alienus 20:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Cold Fusion

Cold fusion is a controversial scientific claim first made by Fleischmann and Pons in 1989. Most members of the public believe that the cold fusion effect was never replicated and the subject has been forgotten. This is incorrect. Hundreds of researchers in major laboratories such as Los Alamos, the Naval Research Laboratory, U. Illinois plasma fusion lab, Mitsubishi have published peer-reviewed papers on this subject in mainstream journals. I am the librarian at a web site that features a collection of 450 cold fusion papers. [8].

Cold fusion is important because some experts believe it might become an inexpensive source of energy in the future.

Until this week, the Wikipedia article on cold fusion contained a balance of statements from opponents who do not believe that cold fusion exists, and statements by cold fusion researchers who think that it does exist. The researchers and I added 40 references to experimental literature, mainly papers in peer-reviewed, mainstream journals (not those devoted only to cold fusion).

Unfortunately, this week the opponents deleted all of our statements and references, and they will not even allow us to add a tag saying this article is disputed. We consider the article as it now stands to be technically inaccurate and biased, but we are not allowed to post a single sentence to that effect. We have never deleted or distorted the claims of opponents, but only explained why we consider them incorrect. (I would be happy to provide a succinct example.)

Please note that cold fusion researchers include many of the world's top electrochemists, two Nobel Laureates, a Fellow of the Royal Society and many other distinguished scientists. I believe that such people have “significant viewpoints” as defined by your POV policy. I added some relevant, uncontroversial quotes from a deceased Nobel Laureate regarding theory and reproducibility, but the opponents deleted these along with everything else.

Cold fusion researchers are mainly elderly, retired university professors. They, and I, have no spare time to engage in “edit wars.” If opponents are allowed to delete all content, they will win by default. If you believe that cold fusion is important enough to merit your attention, and you agree that the viewpoints of the cold fusion researchers themselves is “significant” then you must intercede to allow an honest, fair presentation of this subject.

Sincerely,

--JedRothwell 20:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE These instructions say: "(Provide links to the user page of each party . . ." etc. I am not sufficiently familiar with Wikipedia jargon to comply with these instructions.

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

 (Provide diffs showing where parties other than the initiating parties have been informed about the request for arbitration.)

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

 (If not, then explain why that would be fruitless)

Statement by party 1

 (Please limit your statement to 500 words)

[The above statement is 387 words. I would not know who Party 2 should be. - JR]

Statement by SCZenz

This is a content dispute. I suggested to Jed here that a RfC on the article is what he's looking for, not ArbCom. -- SCZenz 22:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Outside View by McClenon

I agree with SCZenz. This is a content dispute. I would also suggest that mediation, focused on content, would be in order. I do not see any evidence of incivility, personal attacks, or other conduct issues. Robert McClenon 22:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Wheel warring

A few users have on multiple occasions engaged in wheel warring (by which I mean repeatedly performing or undoing a block, deletion or protection while some other party does the opposite). Just like edit warring, wheel warring should not be acceptable behavior, regardless of what the user's actual goals or motives are. The end does not justify the means.

The three people I mention below are not the only people engaged in wheel warring, but they appear to be the most frequently involved. I have waded through a couple thousand entries in the block log (Dec 17th and onwards) and deletion log (Jan 1st and onwards), and found about a dozen editors who were to a lesser extent involved in wheel warring. I do not believe this is conducive to a healthy atmosphere on Wikipedia.

Ignoring all rules is defensible in some circumstances, but wheel warring should not be one of those. While I would certainly not want these users deadminned, I do hold that they need to realize that this behavior is disruptive. We have dispute resolution mechanisms precisely to avoid edit wars and wheel wars. Radiant_>|< 23:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Snowspinner (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
  • Block wars [9], [10] and [11]
  • Deletion wars [12] and [13]

• Merovingian (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
  • Block war [14]
  • Deletion wars [15], [16] and [17]

• Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
  • Deletion wars [18], [19], [20], [21] and [22]
  • Protection war [23]

• Radiant! (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
  • Complainant, not involved in any of the wheel wars mentioned above.

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• User:Radiant! brought the request
• User:Snowspinner notified
• User:Merovingian notified
• User:Tony Sidaway notified

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

The whole problem here is that wheel warring is used rather than normal dispute resolution.

Statement by Merovingian

Seeing that all the incidents beside my name have occurred fairly recently, I can recall them rather well. As far as the blocking and unblocking of User:Miskin, I had the erroneous idea that a 3RR block could be reversed if the user in question was removing unsourced material, which Miskin was. It turns out that that is not the case. I have not pursued the matter further.

The deletion "wars" mentioned all happened the other day, when User:Tony Sidaway was deleting userbox templates without discussion. I understood his view about them, but I think he still should have at least brought his concerns to the attention of other editors. That's all I can think of to say right now. --King of All the Franks 23:29, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Tony Sidaway

No problems. On the cases cited:

• Template:User evol-2 Apologies, my error. I was deleting a lot of templates and assumed that I'd missed one of a series; that template had been undeleted by Merovingian. Reasons for deletion discussed amply by Kelly on the response to her RfC.

• Wikipedia:Catholic Alliance of wikipedia Closed a deletion discussion with an overwhelming consensus for deletion on the grounds of serious breach of the neutrality policy (a project page with the stated intend of "nurture and keep wikipedia's pro-life/pro-catholic articles and categories." This is speedy material anyway, My first stated reason (25 Dec) was: "Not remotely compatible with Wikipedia's policy of neutrality)" If I was wrong, I should be deopped. I'd do this again to deny the guy his campaigning tool.

• Systemwars.com. Contested deletion on the basis that the article was a recreation. I went ahead and created my own new article on the subject. This was repeatedly falsely speedied as a recreation of the original article, despite my attempt to take it to AfD in line with the undeletion policy.

• OGTV2 - From Tha Hood to Hollywood. An independent album listed by HMV Japan and produced by Snoop Dogg and one of his collaborators who had worked on conventionally published albums produced by his label. We don't delete Snoop Dogg albums unless we have a very good reason.

• Warren Benbow. Straightforward undeletion and listing on AfD, under the exception clause of the undeletion policy, of an out-of-process speedy. Had to undelete it a lot of times to keep the AfD going. Unanimous consensus to keep the article.

• Schnorrer. I lifted protection from a temporarily protected article, distanced 5-7 days apart so as to give any source of vandalism a chance to go away: 11 September, 5 October, 10 October, 17 October, (I reprotected it same day in response to renewed vandalism), 24 October, 30 October. When finally protection was lifted on 8 November, vandalism did not resume. To adopt the vernacular: the sound you hear is the bottom of a barrel being scraped.

If actions like this are wrong, I absolutely should not be an administrator. I have made such actions, valuing content over process, the focus of my role as an administrator. I urge arbcom to accept this case. Irrespective of the outcome, I'll flip my admin bit in a trice if I become convinced that I've damaged Wikipedia rather than upholding its purpose against a determined move to place process before content. I've got the evidence, bring it on.

Finally a word on the term "wheel war". I believe this is inappropriate because it implies abuse of power. There are genuine differences of opinion on whether, and when, content or process is more important, with many reputable admins genuinely believing on good evidence that in certain instances process is deleterious to good content. When we find ourselves confronted by other administrators who reverse our actions solely and avowedly to enforce process, then we're faced with a dilemma: either act against the interests of Wikipedia by inappropriately submitting to process, or carry on to ensure that the correct result (which almost invariably follows: Homa Sayar, Albert M. Wolters, Pejman Akbarzadeh, Monique deMoan, Warren Benbow) is obtained. It is always inappropriate to let bad process hold good content to ransom. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 13:02, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

"If actions like this are wrong, I absolutely should not be an administrator." You ever blocked anyone for breaking the 3RR? If so, you know the answer to whether it's wrong and should hand in your badge. Editors who revert-war are only doing what they think is right, Tony, just as you were in this instance. Should you be permitted a double standard just because you once passed a beauty contest? Grace Note 06:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Snowspinner

Tony summarizes my viewpoint pretty well. The overriding rule in Wikipedia is that you Do The Right Thing. With a Wikipedian culture that increasingly values rules-based proceduralism over thinking about outcomes and behaving consistantly with an eye towards the principles on which Wikipedia is founded, the task of getting it right becomes more and more difficult. The question of what does more harm - a transparently bad admin action or a wheel war - is one that has more subtlety than the rhetoric in question suggests. In this case, I blocked users who made a transparent attack template that was designed to try to win an RfC by overwhelming force, and deleted that template and a godawful shortcut redirect. I also upheld Jimbo's right to make a ban despite a full frontal assault on that.

Admins are given their powers because we trust them to get it right. When they do not, they do not have a free pass to have their bad decisions sit while we engage in pointless discussion. And no matter how many people cry "You didn't touch third base," the end result has always mattered more than the process. Phil Sandifer 03:46, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

So, Phil, just so I'm clear on your beliefs, if I revert an article four times in a day, because I think it's The Right Thing, you'd overturn a block on me for doing it? Rhetorical. Want to try whether I should remove a picture from a page repeatedly because I think it's The Right Thing? Also rhetorical. I won't even trouble you with what makes you think that the standards you're so keen to push down other users' throats shouldn't be applied to you? Grace Note 06:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Demi

I think the point of this case is being missed, a bit. In rejecting it, the Committee would be endorsing wheel wars--on both "sides"--as a way to settle disputes. It takes more than one party to engage in warring. Tony couldn't have deleted the Catholic Alliance page a dozen times without several people restoring it, and similar for the other wars cited. The fact is that these privilege wars (and there are many other examples, edit wars over the interface pages come to mind) seem to be becoming more common, and everyone involved thinks a) they are absolutely in the right and b) some kind of emergency exists that prevents us from tolerating the suboptimal situation for even a moment longer. Is there really no question here for the Committee to consider? No party that could be considered in the wrong after consideration of evidence? Demi ^T/_C 00:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/3/0/0)

• Reject. Radiant!, thank you for bringing this to our attention; it is a true pleasure to see that sysop powers are not only used for winning arguments or destroying the project, as most of the people discussing such matters with me seem to believe. Tony's behaviour in particular, and especially his comments, above, on each individual matter, are exemplary. I confess, I was rather worried by [24] (one of the links you gave to demonstrate how Snowspinner is a rouge admin); curious how you didn't list Jtkiefer, despite his unblocking a user twice against policy (don't unblock someone without a word with the blocker first), against Jimbo (you lot do remember who he is, don't you?), and, last but certainly not least, against common sense (if I have to explain this, I worry). And no, I do not think that there should be an Arbitration case against Jtkiefer on the basis of this, even so; I hope he will have learnt from this, though. James F. (talk) 14:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
• Reject, all I see is people doing the best they can Fred Bauder 14:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
• Reject ➥the Epopt 00:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Citing credible sources: Zeq and Heptor

Involved parties

• Ian Pitchford (talk · contribs) (filer of this request)
• Zeq (talk · contribs)
• Heptor (talk · contribs)
• Sean Black (talk · contribs)
• Zero0000 (talk · contribs)
• Kriegman (talk · contribs)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• Notice to Zeq
• Notice to Heptor

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Yes:

• RfC, 4 December, 2005 (1948 Arab-Israeli War) and 5 December, 2005 (Palestinian exodus).
• Direct appeal on Zeq's talk page, 7 December, 2005.
• Direct appeal on Heptor's talk page, 7 December, 2005.
• Extensive discussions regarding the credibility of sources on the article talk pages - here and here
• Mediation by Sean Black
• Appeal to Jimmy Wales
• Email correspondence with Wales, Sean Black and Jayjg.

Statement by Ian Pitchford (talk · contribs)

I would be grateful if Wikipedia's policy that articles must cite credible sources could be enforced in the articles on the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Palestinian exodus. I have tried to get these two editors to abide by the policy without success. In this case the material being added to the articles is blatantly inappropriate and no credible sources have been cited at all, whilst that being deleted, (as for example, here), is quite clearly relevant, appropriate and well-sourced. I enjoy editing Wikipedia, but like most editors have limited time to spend on the project and don't want to waste the bulk of that time trying to make sure that editors comply with minimum standards. Is arbitration really the only way viable of making sure that policies are implemented? If so, I think it is going to be difficult to justify the time I spend on the project. --Ian Pitchford 20:09, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Addendum: The comments added below by Zeq, Heptor and Kriegman illustrate how the debate has been conducted for many weeks. A request for scholarly references is never answered with such references, but with additional unsourced claims and personal insults, even though it would have taken far less effort to open a few histories of the period and to report on what they say. Furthermore, I believe that mediation is inappropriate as I am asking not for judgment of a dispute between editors, but for Wikipedia policy on sources to be implemented. We don't mediate policy: we either implement it or we don't. Wikipedia has an entire task force dedicated to removing vandalism and challenging vandals, but there is no comparably efficient and expeditious mechanism for removing unsourced claims and for challenging those who add them, even though unsourced material damages the encyclopedia in much more insidious and destructive ways than simple vandalism. We need a "sources taskforce" to spare editors this unpleasantness and to leave them free to donate their time and expertise to the task of constructing an encyclopedia. --Ian Pitchford 18:41, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Statement by Zeq

Ian refuse to accept what was decided in the mediation: That the info that can not be sourced will be taken out and that the info that has sources will remain in. My agreement to the mediator is clearly indicated on the talk page. Ian "implemented" the mediator suggestion by removing sourced info. I suggested to him that if he has sources that say differently (from the sourced info in the article) he should add those sources to the text so we have both versions in the article. Instead he rushed to the ArbCom. (after both he and Zero wrote very starnge interpretations of the NPOV policy on the talk page such as Zero on Pal exodus talk claiming: "NPOV does not consist of multiple POVs" )

The problem in the Palestinian exodus article is not so simple. This article (please see talk page) 3 years ago was pro Israeli , now it is completly Pro- Palestinian (see version prior to the current protected one which is a bit more NPOV). For month and month editors have complianed about the lack of neutrality of that page (long before I have registed with wikipedia - just see the complete talk page one of many examples is [25]) but one after another editor are "chased away" from that page by those who seem to think they "own" it and do not allow any other editor there. This article is at the core palestinian narraitive of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Palestinian version is well desrve to be on that page but so does the other POV.

All I have to say about the problem is stated here: User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=29193600#complete_failure_of_wikipedia_NPOV_policy and part of the solution is here:

One Critical aspect of the Pal Exodus dispute is decribed here:

Benni Morris in his book "The Birth of the palestinian Refugees problem" page 286 of the 1991 Hebrew version (and also as far as I know in the British version from 1987) wrote:

"This tragedy (refering to the exodus) is a result of a war, not of pre meditated intention, nor Israeli Nither Arab "

These words, are why some Palestinians (after seeing him as a hero) now see in him yet another zionist propagadist. You can not have both ways: Either you rely on Morris as a reliable historic source or you don't. One can not cherrypick some Ben Gurion quotes from Morris's book and give tham an interprestation that Morris clearly sais is not there.

We can not by including this text about transfer here in this article create the impression that the "talk about transfer" caused the exodus. That claim is controvesial even among scholars with Majority view that the exodus was caused by rethe war not be the Ben Gurion speeches 10 years before the war.

There should be an encylopedia discussion of the transfer ideas as well as alternatives that have been discussed by all the parties invlovd in the conflict over the years. (example is the 1937 Peel comission) that discussion must be in a seprate artcle (something like : "The transfer concept in Israeli-palestinina conflict" infact there is a place for such discussion here Population_transfer#Middle_East) Unless we can find a mainstream schoalrs who claim that the talk is what caused the exodus, in fact we must rely on what slim has said in User_talk:Zeq#Palestinian_exodus : " If you want to add a paragraph about X, you would have to find a mainstream academic source who made a strong and direct connection, and not only that, but who argued that the Palestinian exodus could not, and should not, be regarded as separable from X. Even then, you'd have to argue your case to have it included, unless you can show that it's the consensus among Israeli historians, for example, that the first could not be examined without examining the second." (X in that case was the jewish exodus, although since we are dealing with policy any other subject could apply instead of X)

Good luck to you sorting this out, it is not am easy one. Zeq 21:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

PS The mediation (which really never ended cause Ian dispute it's results) is just one step of many poiisble dispute resolution mechanism and I will gladly participate in a wider RFC on these subjects. PS 2 Everyone is welcome to review my complete edit record. Below, Zero have cherypicked few examples and turned this RfA (on sources accuracy) to a personall attck on me, these edits (one include a cut and paste from an external web site than used a word I would not have used) The other is well explained at the relevant talk - are not giving a complete history of my edit record, yet again cherypicking seems to be the problem. Zeq 21:26, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Statement by Sean Black

I am distressed that this has escalated to this point. I believe that this case does have merit, but I feel that my attempts to assist the parties in working out a compromise were at least partially successful. This may be a premature request, but I am confident that that the ArbCom will come to a sensible conclusion, whatever it is.--Sean|Black 22:37, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Statement by Heptor (talk · contribs)

The core of this dispute seems to be a quotation by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni. This mufti has collaborated with the Nazis during the WW2. Among other things he assisted in formation of Bosnian [Waffen_SS |Waffen SS]] troops who fought Yugoslav Partisans, and also made broadcasts aimed for the Arab World, in which he agitated Arabs to support the Nazis. In one of those broadcasts he, according to Pearlman and Schechtman, expressed himself in following way: "Arabs, arise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you". Ian Pitchford is disputing credibility of Pearlman and Schechtman.

Ian Pitchford has also erased/commented out some other material regarding the mufti: [26]. For example, I have not seen any explanation why he commented out that "the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was involved in much of the high level negotiations between the Arab leaders in the 1948 War."

The matter has been under mediation by Sean Black. Interestingly enough, both he, me and Zeq concluded that a compromise has been reached. I implemented it here. However, Ian Pitchford and Zero claimed there was has never been any compromise, and started removing material soon after. The page had to be protected again.

During the dispute, Ian threatened to submit the matter to ArbCom repeatedly (an example from my talk page), violated the 3RR ( more on my talk page) and immediately afterwards asked to protect the article as it was after his fourth revert, threatened to quit editing Wikipedia, complained to Jimbo Wales on his talk page and, evidently, also per e-mail.

To make it clear, Ian Pitchford also made some solid work on Wikipedia, I did note that (look for the bold text). Unfortunately, most if not all of his edits concerning the Middle East are pro-Palestinian/leftist biased, and this not how an encyclopedia should be. Even if his edits are extensive, they are aimed to move Wikipedia in a certain political direction. I am not sure if it is a good thing.

I agree with Sean Black that this request is somewhat premature – mediation bore fruits before, and should have been tried further. But it also would be nice if the Arbitration Committee settles the matter once and for all.

Heptor _talk 00:20, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

PS: I really recommend to check some of the articles I linked to. Not only to understand this current dispute better, but also because the articles are interesting. I am reading the Waffen SS now. -- Heptor _talk 00:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Addendum

In light of statements by Ian Pitchford, and especially Zero, I will add a little to my statement.

1. I am tired of Zero making personal attacks on Zeq and Kriegman. He does it all the time. Last time he wrote that "In a nutshell you [Zeq] have explained why you are a bad editor" when Zeq wrote that "There is room to more than one POV"[27].

He actually reverted to calling Kriegman vandal [28], when Kriegman digged up more and more documents to support the quotation.

1. Zero also used his administrator priviliges to protect the article, in the version he himself endorsed.
2. As Kriegman stated below, both Zero and Ian Pitchford freely use biased authors, such as Mattar, while labeling those they disagree with as "liars", or useless for other reasons.
3. What Mufti said on Zero's scan is actaully quite similar to what he said according to Kriegman's scan, e.g. go kill jews.
4. It is an aknowledged problem that Wikipedia has systematic leftist bias. Both the Soviet Communists and modern days socialists seem to have something against USA and Israel (indeed, socialists of all kinds somehow seem to dislike Israel), and this shows in many articles. Zero and Ian Pitchford systematically sift available sources for information unfavorable to Israel. I hope Arbitration Committee will make a step to counter this problem.

Heptor _talk 20:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Statement by Zero

1. Zeq is one of the most obsessive POV-pushers I have ever encountered in Wikipedia. He has hardly any knowledge either of history, nor of the process of cooperative NPOV writing. His style is to delete large slabs of text he doesn't like [29] and scream when he is reverted. His notion of NPOV is to add text like "mass of frenzied Arab rioters" [30] then claim willingness to accept "the other" POV, as if a good article can ever be written by joining together different bits of gutter rhetoric. Almost every article he approaches becomes a battleground, and countless efforts to reason with him have not had the least effect. Please, oh please, do something about him.
2. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War problem: Zeq and Heptor want to present it as a war of Israel versus genocidal fiends. To this end they found some alleged "quotations" of the Palestinian leader Amin al-Husayni during WWII (when he was a Nazi collaborator, which nobody denies). These quotes come from a book by a Haganah spokesman Pearlman and were repeated by a book by Revisionist Zionist and Arab-expulsion advocate Schectman. Both books are regarded as propagandistic by academic historians, and I gave an example of a provable lie in Pearlman's book. No other sources are known even though Ian Pitchford and I have scoured the academic literature. Moreover, when I went to a contemporary report of the radio broadcast in question, I found a version that is quite different. None of this has any effect on Zeq or Heptor who want this "quotation" to appear and that's that. Nor have they established any relevance of this to the topic of the article, other than their own opinions.
3. Zeq's comments about Benny Morris and "transfer" above...Here is Morris' current view: "[In 1948] The transfer idea is in the air. The entire leadership understands that this is the idea. The officer corps understands what is required of them. Under Ben-Gurion, a consensus of transfer is created. ... Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst." (Haaretz, Jan 8, 2004). Of course this isn't a good summary of what should be in the article either, but how can one proceed when Zeq keeps deleting the entire section? --Zero 15:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
4. General comment about these "quotations". There are quite a few going around, copied from one polemic author to another. Checking them is extremely difficult since they come from obscure sources such as radio broadcasts, and also because academic historians completely ignore them. The main reason historians ignore them is that they are unverifiable. You can go to a university library and look through a whole shelf of learned books about the 1948 war and you will be lucky if you find one or two that mention these quotations and neither of those will give a primary source. Not even the strongly anti-Mufti book of Israeli historian Zvi Elpeleg (who was formerly the military governor of the Gaza Strip) presents them. Why should we aspire to lower standards? If something contentious cannot be verified by us and has not been certified by the experts who publish in peer-reviewed places, we should omit it. --Zero 04:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
5. There are "offers" to move the doubtful quotations to a different article. In fact, unverifiable junk is unacceptable anywhere in Wikipedia. --Zero 07:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
6. I'd like to thank Kriegman for quoting Honig's admission that she didn't get her "quotation" directly from the mufti's memoirs but from "transcripts possessed by" (journalist) Haviv Kanaan. I have explained why her claim is unbelievable at Talk:1948 Arab-Israeli War (search for "Honig") and, in a dramatic flourish, offered to block myself if I'm wrong. --Zero 12:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
   Addendum: After Kriegman's reply, I stand by my statement. Honig does not say she got this particular quotation directly from the mufti's memoirs, nor that "at a later date" she verified it in the Arabic. None of this ranting is the least relevant to the question of whether the quotation is geniune. Get serious: what is the page number where it appears? --Zero 02:57, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
7. Zeq's "verifiability not accuracy" statement is a good summary of his attitude to sources. He thinks that any rubbish that can be found on the web is allowed so long as anyone can verify that it's found on the web. Imagine the trashy state Wikipedia would be in if that was really the policy. --Zero 11:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

More from Zeq

Here is what Zero wrote: "I don't believe that either "quotation" is accurate. Just because some journalist can copy something from a book or off the web doesn't make it suddenly become true. Sarah Honig is/was one of the JP's most right-wing commentators. Where do these quotations actually come from? The chance that Sarah Honig actually read the Mufti's diaries is nil. --Zero 01:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC) "

Zero has a problem. He is a vry talanted researcher in his field, but in Wikipedia his original research is not applicapable. This must be very frustarting. Zero uses his research to try and refute the aplicability of other editors contributions. What he seem to ignore is that Wikipedia has policies. These policies apply to all articles and all editors in the same way. The same yardstick should apply to all articles. The ArbCom should reaffairm Wikipedia policy about sources, the yardstick of which is verifiability not accuracy . So if Zero want to write a sourced wikipedia article about Honig, he is more than welcome but his own original research about who Honig is should remain outside Wikipedia. In any case, if Kriegman provided a verifyable source for the quote this is the end of the story. Zeq 09:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

What ever the policy is it should be applied across the board to all articles. Zero clearly want to use other criteria to statments which he regards as against his POV. That is the issue: To apply the policy in a uniform way. I did not "invent" the "Verifayability not accuracy" it is rightthere in the policy: Wikipedia:Verifiability. Zero has a problem with this policy which clearly say: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth."

Zeq 11:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Kriegman

[I have never participated in a RfArb before and am trying to respond and understand the process while my family is packing and waiting for me: I will be away from any internet connections for the next few days, and I believe the following points need to be known by the arbitrators. So this statement may be more thorough and longer than is considered appropriate.]

I've been involved in this dispute from the beginning, to the point of being threatened by Ian that this would be brought to arbitration. I have only focused on the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article, in which I placed the original disputed quotation by the Mufti. I cited as a source a book by Davis & Decter. Zero claimed that this was not a valid source. He did not say why he made this claim, just that it was not valid. Finally, after much debate (that included a good deal of name calling by Zero), and after many revisions and reversions, he suggested that there was a connection between the Israeli government and the organizations that took over the publication of the Myths & Facts series that indicated that they were biased. I accepted this, as Zero seemed to know more about it than I. But then I discovered that Zero's and Ian's sources, e.g., Mattar, were just as associated with the PLO as Davis and Decter were with Israel. Something was fishy.

Examining their edits, it became clear that Zero and Pitchford scour the sources---in a quite scholarly, i.e., diligent, fashion---and cull out of them anything that can be taken to cast aspersions on Israel and create a picture of innocent Palestinian victimhood. The bias is quite profound. Starting with their rejection of Davis and Decter because of their associations, while embracing Mattar despite his associations, we can go on from there and see quite a pattern of bias.

For example, after I accepted Zero's critique, I found another source for an equally important call for annihilation of the Jews during one of the Mufti's Nazi broadcasts from Germany. This time the date and place and words were specified. But these authors were no good (Pearlman's 1948 book and Schechtman's later book) because they, too, had associations to Zionist figures. Meanwhile, Ian starts introducing more biased statements into the article from Arab scholars, while reverting any references from Pearlman, Schechtman, and/or Davis & Decter, and while footnoting (with a statement that it is not verified) Sachar's claim of another Arab leader's call for a genocidal war.

Then we were told that we don't even know if Pearlman actually wrote what I reported, even though I had provided links to jpg pictures of the pages from Pearlman's book. How did we really know they were from Pearlman's book? I had contacted the scholar who maintained the French website where the jpgs were posted. Based on our interaction and my examination of his site, I was quite sure of his integrity. But I suggested that Ian ask him for some verification, if he still doubted. I offered to ask him for the verification if Ian did not feel comfortable doing it. There was no response from Ian.

The claim also was made that Pearlman hadn't actually heard the Mufti's broadcasts himself! While this may or may not have been true, the standard for anything that was pro-Israel was becoming bizarrely stringent. Not only did we have to prove that our sources were impeccable scholars, but they had to be direct witnesses to the events they described in their historical works. On that basis, almost all historical works would have to be thrown out.

Finally, I found a reference by an Israeli reporter in a respected newspaper (The Jerusalem Post). She provided a slightly different translation of the same speech and also claimed that the Mufti had written in his memoirs:

"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours.'"

This was rejected by Zero who claimed:

Sarah Honig is/was one of the JP's most right-wing commentators. Where do these quotations actually come from? The chance that Sarah Honig actually read the Mufti's diaries is nil. --Zero 01:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

So I contacted Honig and asked her about Zero's allegations. This is from her responses:

If your interlocutor thinks it lacks credibility because of my assumed right-wing orientation that would be a real irony. Because I wrote about the Mufti I gained a right-wing reputation and because I gained a right-wing reputation whatever I wrote about the Mufti can be dismissed as propaganda.

Bottom line - the mufti wins and I lose. This isn't just a vicious cycle it's a manifestation of ongoing relentless anti-Jewish bias plain and simple on part of whoever it was you communicated with. Whatever the Jew says is suspect and the Genocide-promoter is given the benefit of high-minded doubt.

Please tell that guardian of universalist conscience that the Mufti was a wanted war criminal sought by Allies post-war (like Mengele, Borman et al - or were they too presumed innocents only accused by propagandist Jewish right-wingers?). Also tell him that both my quotes come from Yad Vashem (or is that outfit by virtue of being Jewish and Israeli suspect of tendentiousness?). …

This isn't esoteric information but material which is readily known and available in Israel. I didn't discover a new planet. Neveretheless, because you perhaps come from where this all might seem new and esoteric … I'll elaborate.

The Mufti's Memoirs are available both in Hebrew and in the original Arabic (which I read proficiently) in Israel. They can be found in all major research and scholastic libraries.

Your Wikipedia interlocutor doubted I actually read them, but I must disappoint him. I DID read them!!! I read Hebrew transcripts possessed by Haviv Kanaan, a highly important authority whom I mention in previous correspondence with you.

I at a later date went up to Yad Vashem. There are archives there open to the public. Folks can sit down in reading rooms and peruse material. There I read the memoirs in ARABIC!

I am only reporting a small part of what she wrote; I strained Ms. Honig's generosity with my constant questions of every little detail of her scholarship; I knew that Zero and Ian would try to find some way to discredit everything she said.

I hope this gives some sense of how one-sided this debate and the article have become. The pro-Israeli sources are subjected to over-the-top scrutiny while pro-Arab sources are routinely accepted as authoritative. There is even one instance on the talk pages of the article (about 2/3's of the way down Archive 2, in a section entitled "Zero's bias") of Zero accurately noting an error I made, but doing so in such a way as to discredit the valid information I was reporting. Since Zero seems to have been fully versed in the nature of the error---i.e., he is highly likely to have known why I made the error (it is repeated ad infinitum in numerous pro-Israeli sources) and that there was still some valid information when the error was removed---this seems like a dishonest manipulation.

Zero postures as if he is an objective seeker of truth, when he is incredibly biased with a legacy of thousands of anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish edits (some quite subtle, and, as far as content contributions to articles, very, very little else in the Wikipedia) that have succeeded in biasing many, if not most, articles on Jews and Israel. While he has added valid content (as in any conflict in which there are opposing points of view that each contain considerable validity, not all anti-Israeli or anti-Jewish material is false, even if it is presented in a one-sided and thus biased fashion), the relentless one-sided nature of his editing has contributed to making the Wikipedia look quite anti-Jewish/Israel.

He has been careful enough about the way in which he made these edits so that the Wikipedia made him an administrator! True, he had his administrative privileges temporarily revoked---and he abused his administrative privileges in this debate by locking the article in an interaction that was quite similar to what led to his having his privileges revoked---but he has managed to continue to bamboozle many Wikipedians into believing he is an objective editor.

Ian is quite different. Also a diligent scholar and also as relentlessly biased as Zero, he seems less manipulative in his presentation of the material. His bias seems more profoundly invisible to him, and thus more obvious in his edits. Indeed, in several instances, which are on the talk pages (current and Archive 2), he diligently presented researched material that supported the view he was presenting the material to oppose, and he seemed to have no idea.

Zero's characterization of Zeq is somewhat ironic, given that "obsessive POV-pusher" applies to Zero. Zero and Ian have some valid points when it comes to Zeq's edits, but (1) Zeq is not a native English speaker and so some of his phrasing may be off due to that and (2) he has shown a willingness to negotiate and to be bound by the decisions of others who are not so embroiled in this edit war. In any case, a careful review of his edits and his talk contributions shows that he is certainly a serious editor who is trying to negotiate and follow the rules. In contrast, even in a RfArb, Zero characterizes the other side's edits as "gutter rhetoric."

Zero's version of the Mufti quotation is clearly not the one quoted by Pearlman, Fisk, Yad Vashem, or Honig. (Zero does refer to a brief report in Arabic that is not present in the scan he posted.) In any case, it was I who wanted to present the notion that the Jews, and much of the rest of the world, in the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust and up against truly murderous/genocidal Arab leaders such as the Mufti, believed they were fighting a war to prevent their annihilation. I did not, and no one did, claim that it was "a war of Israel versus genocidal fiends." This mischaracterization of the debate is typical of Zero: The debate was about whether the Israelis believed it was a genocidal war and whether there was any basis for such a belief in the rhetoric of the Arab leaders.

Indeed, my view of the war was strongly influenced by both Zero's and Ian's scholarship that suggested that the perception of Israel as an underdog facing an overwhelming genocidal enemy was erroneous. I even wondered if this perception was fostered by Israeli military leaders to make the Jews feel more desperately cornered. In any case, it was clearly fostered by the Arab leaders who wanted their fighters to be confident of an easy victory (and this may have been a clear tactical mistake on their part). But the point is that Zero's mischaracterization of the debate is typical. Kriegman 17:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Addendum to respond to Zero's distortion of what I presented above

Zero wrote, "I'd like to thank Kriegman for quoting Honig's admission that she didn't get her 'quotation' directly from the mufti's memoirs but from 'transcripts possessed by' (journalist) Haviv Kanaan." This is not what I wrote, as can be seen by simply reading what is on this page. Honig stated, unequivocally, "I read the memoirs in ARABIC!" I'm not sure what Zero's problem is as I am fairly certain that English is his first language. The reference to Kanaan clearly refers to an earlier email, the content of which I did not present here because my statement was already too long. This is the context in which she mentioned Kanaan in the earlier email that was referenced in the email I presented above:

Wow - I don't even know where to begin. I am afraid that my sources for all Mufti material come from the Hebrew.

They are so numerous that it is in fact difficult to even know what to home in on. Any Israeli newspaper archive of the period (like Davar) was full of translations of the Mufti's speeches and harangues.

Much of what I know moreover is supported by personal testimonies of folks of my parents' generation. Anyone in Eretz Yisrael at the time heard the Mufti ad nauseam, saw his minions "Heil Hitlering," flying Nazi flags ansd decorationg their homes with portraits of fuehrer and swastikas. They called Hitler "Abu Ali" and waited for him.

mu (sic) favorite source is by the late Ha'aretz journalist Haviv Kanaan. He was a police officer during the days of British Mandate and made it his life's mission to record all the goings-on of the period, especially the Arab collaboration with the Nazis. He kept detailed journals throughout and collected material and documentation at the time. Two of his books are my favorite sources, both excellent books - THROUGH THE EYES OF A PALESTINIAN POLICEMAN (Masada Publishing, 1980) and 200 DAYS OF ANXIETY (Mol-Art, 1974). Both, alas, are in Hebrew.

Veteran Israelis who understood Arabic themselves used to hear the Mufti's tirades broadcast on the radio. He never tried to disguise his murderous agenda and neither did the Arab states who offered him assylum post-war when he was a wanted war criminal. [emphasis added]

While it might be possible to misunderstand Honig's statement (that was presented without the earlier context to which she referred) to indicate that she got the quotations from Kanaan's transcripts and that this is counter to what she had claimed elsewhere, there are several problems with this distortion. First, no one, including Honig ever claimed that she sat in front of a radio and heard the Mufti's Nazi broadcasts from Germany or his calls to genocide in Israel. So she had to get them from someone's transcripts. If she used Yad Vashem's or Kanaan's, how is this an "Ahah! I gotchya!" What was she supposed to use? Second, a translation of the Mufti's memoirs is not a "transcript," a word which refers to speeches that Kanaan wrote down. Third, she made it rather clear that she read the memoirs in Arabic. I must admit, I am a bit surprised that Zero would make such a misinterpretation when anyone can read the original material presented above. It makes me wonder about his other interpretations that have colored so many articles in the Wikipedia on this and related subjects. Kriegman 21:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Responses to Ramallite

Please note that if the quotations could not be verified, the idea that they should still be included in the article was to present a view of how the 1948 war is understood by many people, including virtually one entire side of the conflict. In the event that we could not find sufficient verification, any such presentation in the article would have to be coupled with a clear statement that the quotations cannot be verified and that there is considerable dispute as to their accuracy. This would make the Wikipedia article more complete and would in no way contribute to propagating false information; if anything, the article would be one of the only sources that would contribute to the challenging of any facile assumptions about the veracity of the "alleged" quotations. However, we have moved far beyond Pearlman and Schechtman as our only sources. We now have Honig, Yad Vashem, and Fisk (hardly a source biased toward Israel). This is certainly more than would be required in the vast majority of Wikipedia articles.

Indeed, I would cite Mattar's biography of the Mufti as another source, of sorts. I do not have access to it (though I am pretty sure Ian and Zero do). I have read that Mattar's scholarly biography of the Mufti left out what everyone in this debate has conceded: The nature and extent of the Mufti's Nazi collaboration. If this is so, we know that Mattar is not above biasing the view of the Mufti that he presents. (And I am not suggesting that this should discredit Mattar as a source; I have repeatedly noted that all sources are biased.) If Mattar is presenting a somewhat whitewashed version of the Mufti---and I believe we can safely assume Mattar knows about the widespread claims about the Mufti's calls for genocide---how is it possible that he does not mention these false claims in his biography of the Mufti?

On the other hand, the truth may be as Honig suggests: Everybody knew about the Mufti's rhetoric. With the leaders of the Arab world saying similar things, what the Mufti said in Arabic to his followers just wasn't news outside of Israel. Arabs, in this view, don't dispute the quotations because they all know they occurred. Rather, Arab leaders (until recently) often tried to distance themselves from the Mufti.

In any case, I believe, for now, we have more than sufficient sources for the quotations, and that they belong in this article as part of a description of the immediate post-Holocaust political context in which the 1948 War occurred. Censoring this information distorts the article's depiction of the conflict by barring information that many people feel is crucial for understanding this war.

But I am pursuing the matter further and will try to get some English translations of Kanaan's books and/or Davar. El C, Zeq can you help with this? Kriegman 23:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Christophe Greffe

Hello, I am new on wikipedia and this article is the first article on which I interact. I think whole problem comes from political issues and uses that this article can have. This is linked to the fact that the events it treats (war of 1948 - first arab-israeli war) still have consequences today (Israel - PA). This is article is therefore used as a battlefield of propaganda. I think that what is reported about Al Husseini broadcasts is true but I think this has nothing to do in this article where it is only used for propaganda matters. And there are other comments of the same type in the article concerning *both sides*.

I think arbitration should more focus on the global problem (ie how to deal at best the fact this topic cannot be neutraly treated) and not only on the problem of sources. I think this has come up to here only for "procedure" reasons and I don't think this is the real problem.

I don't have a solution but a suggestion : maybe some paragraphs on the article should be shared in two parts : "Following palestinian point of view...". "Following israeli point of view..." and some references should be allowed to be commented by "This allegation is considered to be myth developed by ... side to give bad images of ...". Therefore all point of views could be developed without *fights of words*.

Christophe Greffe 17:55, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

NB: sorry for the poor English - I am Belgian and my mother tongue is French.

Ramblings by El_C

While I consider the Hebrew Wikipedia quite decent on Arab-Israeli topics, and in general (and this despite its strong pro-Israeli bias — see Heptor's addendum five for the fun, if in my opinion highly simplistic, redetails), I do find it noteworthy that whereas En goes on to expend more than 500 words on the Mufti in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, He's מלחמת העצמאות, expends 0 words. El_C 00:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

A note by Zeq

While Hebrew wiki is not "The authorative source" it is by far more NPOVon many articles. I would suggest taking the Hebrew wikip articles for "Nakba", "1948 war" "MUfti Amin Husseini", and "1929 massacre (in Hebrew called "the hebron massacre"), translting them and using them on english Wiki. I would have done this my self if I would know that they would survive 5 minutes - which I am sure they would not. although they do represent both POVs and the different versions of hiostory and actually do it generally in a much more NPOV way that in English wikipedia. If the arbCom would decide on acepting this as a compromise I will do the trnaslations (which BTW, include more on the Mufti role in the 1929 events than I could find english sources, the Hebrew Wikipedia explain how he caused the 1929 riots after loosing a municipal elections in Jerusalem to his arch-rivals the Nashibi clan and used his "religious" clout to gain popularity again by turnning on the jews)

On the other hand the English wikipedia start the w/index.php?title=Riots_in_Palestine_of_1929&oldid=33146080#Sequence_of_events (on the Arab riots) by saying that "the Jews marched..." (as if the jews caused the riots). I would encourge the ArbCom not to limit it's rulling to the sources only but to find a mechanism by which Wikipedia will be widd-out from ALL propeganda (be it pro-Israel or Pro-Palestinian).

As I said this is not a simple task. Clearly in English Wikipedia the NPOV mechanism have failed in most Israeli-Palestinian conflict articles and work to correct the current bias is not an easy one. Zeq 06:54, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Follow up by El_C

Zeq left a rather confusing note on my talk page. In it, he tells me that the Mufti's role in the Hevron Massacare is well known (when did I state otherwise?). He also appears to dismiss the entire Hebrew Wikipedia on the basis that some of their articles are not up to par and juxtaposes that to the featured article cited above (?). I think... It's difficult to tell. Finally, he cautions me not to copy something into Riots in Palestine of 1929 (writing: if you copy thisd into 1929 you will be reverted), but I don't know what it is I'm not allowed to "copy," though it was in any case unlikely that I would edit the aforementioned article based on his note, because again, I do not fully understand what is meant by it. I invite Zeq to write to me in Hebrew if he is having difficulties with English (which I can translate, if he so wishes). El_C 07:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

A note by Christophe Greffe

I totaly agree with the fact that Mufti should not deserve 500 words in 1948 Arab-Israeli War but I think too that 1948_Arab-Israeli_War#Yishuv/British Security and Intelligence Collaboration should not deserve more. I have the feeling that the will of adding negative information about Mufti is more a reaction due to the negative (and biased) information added before. Information about Mufti is purposed to give weight to the myth that Arabs had genocide intention. Information about intelligence is purposed to give weight to the myth that Israelis were supported by United Kingdom. Both are myths.

So I echo the idea that the problem to arbitrate is not the problem of source but the NPOV mechanism in Arab-Israeli topics that are both pro-israeli and pro-palestinian biased. Christophe Greffe 09:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Heptor agrees

I agree with Christophe and El_C on this, the quotation should be moved to Haj Amin al-Husayni, for details see [31]. I hope that Arb Com will confirm that sources for the quotation are more than adequate. -- Heptor _talk 13:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Zeq Agrees as well

The direct connection of the Mufti to the 1948 war is in Araffat words (The mufti being the comader of all arabs in palestine accoprding to Arrafat) but i agree that this quote is better moved to a seprate article. I also agree with ramallite below that Wikipedia should strive for higher standrads. However, if we apply higher starndards those must be applied equaly: One can not argue that the words of the Mufti in 1943 do not apply in an article about 1948 but that the words of Ben Gurion in the 1930s and 1940s do belong there. As I said all along: The Wikipedia policies are very good but somehow thy totaly failed in the case of the Israeli-Palestinian articles. When I started to edit the article on Israeli-Arabs almost 100% of that article was on the "discrimination aspect" - does anyone honestly think that this is the only thing that could be said about Israeli-Arabs (a group only few people know actually exist) ? So by all means, set higher standrads but apply those acroos the board . If you can not do that, than the currect policy should apply everywhere. Zeq 15:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Statement by Ramallite (talk · contribs)

1. It has been difficult to follow this long dispute, but I think it somewhat bears a close analogy to "Elementary, my dear Watson" or "Play it again, Sam". It is widely considered that Sherlock Holmes said the first phrase to his trusty friend Dr. Watson, and Humphrey Bogart's (or was it Ingrid Bergman's) famous line from Casablanca is equally well known. People have quoted, written about, repeated, and propagated these phrases for a long time - except they never happened. The phrase "Elementary, my dear Watson" was never uttered by Sherlock Holmes, and it's probably known by now that Sam was never asked to "play it again". Here, we have a similar situation where an often repeated phrase attributed to Haj Amin Husseini may also have never actually been uttered. The difference is that, while my examples come from the entertainment industry, this dispute deals with some editors of Wikipedia feeling that the inclusion of such a phrase that is commonly believed to have been said, but may actually not have been, in a Wikipedia article will only contribute to the continued propagation of a 'lie' which others can use to support their (often unfriendly) opinions or ideologies. These editors (myself included) prefer that Wikipedia not be yet another source that propagates unreliable but commonly believed information, and that it hold itself to a higher standard. On the other hand, editors who support the inclusion of this phrase rely on the notion that, despite the possibility of the quotation being false, the fact that it is generally believed is enough reason to include it since it is the reason why Israelis 'believed that they were facing a genocidal enemy'. Thus, to reconcile these two positions, it is absolutely essential that such a phrase, had it been truly uttered, be verified beyond reasonable doubt if possible.
2. The use of Pearlman and Schectman as sources do not, in my opinion, compare to Khalidi and Mattar. While the latter are certainly biased, the former, if the above statements hold true, have an agenda that goes beyond bias. Being biased is okay as long as the text is cited appropriately as being the POV of a particular party, while quoting information from authors who have particular agendas must be more scrutinized to make sure that they did not invent data that end up being in this encyclopedia as fact. Quotations by historical figures should be traceable via media archives and such, which would be more credible than books by authors who are suspect. I do not believe that Khalidi and Mattar make any claims that are based on unverifiable sources (I may be wrong), while the fact that there is a dispute regarding material provided by Pearlman and repeated by Schectman makes it worth investigating further.
3. Echoing El_C above, I also am not sure why the Mufti gets as much attention in this article as he does, since his influence had waned significantly by the advent of the War. The fact that he is regularly used as a poster child for Palestinian Islamic intolerance, despite the fact that he died long ago, makes me wonder, and I do hope that it's not a question of the Mufti 'needing' to be mentioned automatically in any article that describes possible Palestinian intolerance (in sort of the same way Judi Dench needs to be automatically nominated for an Oscar almost every time).
4. I have no reason to doubt the good faith of Zero, Ian, Heptor, or Kriegman, and hope that the ArbCom will be able to help settle the verifiability of the sources in question.

Statement by Hackwrench

Ian Pitchford: I would be grateful if Wikipedia's policy that articles must cite credible sources could be enforced.

Should, must... Funny how little nuances in meaning are lost on some people. Kind of like how credibility is in the eye of the beholder.

Ian: I enjoy editing Wikipedia, but like most editors have limited time to spend on the project and don't want to waste the bulk of that time trying to make sure that editors comply with minimum standards.

If you don't want to waste your time, then don't waste your time. It really is that simple. Someone is bound to come along to set things right for whom it isn't a waste of time. Hackwrench 04:42, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Ian:We don't mediate policy: we either implement it or we don't.

Policy isn't a black and white thing. You sound like you're not having fun. One of the signs a person is in the wrong is that he isn't having fun, wspecially when it comes to writing. Hackwrench 04:42, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Ian:Wikipedia has an entire task force dedicated to removing vandalism and challenging vandals

"Task Force"? Sounds like a mischaracterization of the committees to me. Hackwrench 18:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Zeq:One can not cherrypick some Ben Gurion quotes from Morris's book and give tham an interprestation that Morris clearly sais is not there.

Sure you can!Hackwrench 04:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

There are two categories of reliability here. One is the reliability to report events. The second is the ability to interpret them. A person can be very reliable on one and poor at the other. Hackwrench 04:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Heptor: I am tired of Zero making personal attacks on Zeq and Kriegman. He does it all the time. Last time he wrote that "In a nutshell you [Zeq] have explained why you are a bad editor" when Zeq wrote that "There is room to more than one POV

It's "There is room for more than one POV". I don't see it as a personal attack, and there is plenty of bad editing going around on both sides.[32] Hackwrench 04:24, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Heptor: He actually reverted to calling Kriegman vandal when Kriegman digged up more and more documents to support the quotation.

Yeah, there's a lot of calling people vandals when they clearly aren't going around. Hackwrench 04:24, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Heptor: It is an aknowledged problem that Wikipedia has systematic leftist bias

Now that's inaccurate. Wikipedia attacts people with biases of just about every pursuasion. Hackwrench 05:05, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

"mass of frenzied Arab rioters" is lousy writing for Wikipedia.

Almost every article he approaches becomes a battleground Sounds fun to me, if this sort of thing troubles you go elsewhere. Hackwrench 05:28, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Both books are regarded as propagandistic by academic historians Yeah, well, here is where you apply the rule of making a distinction between accuracy in reporting and accuracy in interpretating.

I gave an example of a provable lie False statements can be chalked up to mistakes as well as intentional lies. Hackwrench 05:28, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment by Heptor

Well, at least this guy can't be accused of kissing up to anybody! Anyhow:

• Zero has called Zeq and Kriegman many different things. I did not follow it that closesly, I am sure they can give better examples. I think that on Wikipedia people should treat each other with respect, even if there is "plenty of bad editing going around". Administrators have a special responsibility to set good example even if there is as you say a lot of calling people vandals.
• Wikipedia has a special project named Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias. I thought I saw they listed leftist bias as one of the biases of Wikipedia, but when I checked it now, they only have this listed as possible bias: "Articles such as uses of torture in recent times tend to dwell on the relatively few (but well documented) cases of abuse in Israel, the United Kingdom, United States and to a lesser extent other western democracies, while ignoring the widespread abuses which take place in countries where information about torture is not widely available to English speaking Wikipedians". This does apply to this debate, but not quite the same. Perhaps they chose to paraphrase since the last time I checked? On the talk page there is a debate weather consistent anti-conservative bias should be included.-- Heptor _talk 16:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Brian Tvedt

This is a very important case, and I hope that the arbitration committee will accept it. One of the issues at stake is that Heptor and Zeq have repeatedly inserted material that is "sourced" only to political advocacy websites that support their POV, even after having been warned repeatedly not to. If such behavior is tolerated, it opens the door to abuse of Wikipedia by all sorts of political operatives. For example, opponents of a politician standing for election could insert material into that politician's biography that is "sourced" only to websites created by political action committees set up by the opposing party. Brian Tvedt 02:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment by Zeq

I also hope the ArbCom will accept the case. However, if Brian think that there are absolutly "neutral" sources in this world , he is very wrong. Most sources have some bias, detectaable or not. Wikipedia has a policy to deal with such issues (the policy about verifiability of sources) and such policy sould apply Equally to all articles and all sources. (If Brian think sources cited by pro-Palestinians are voided of political bias this is indeed a good joke). I also reject his charterization of the sources used to prove the Mufy quotes. We are after all, talking about a person that was a proven Nazi Supporter: Does Brian think he never said anything negative about the jews ? If so there should be a crediable source refuting the quotes .

In Sharp contrast to the sources verifiability policy that is easy to enforce ( but must be done so across the board ) the NPOV policy has totaly failed in respect to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Wikipedia have proven itself unable to deal with the pro-palestinian bias in most articles about the conflict. This is the real problem . Zeq 08:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion of compromise

Wikipedia encyclopedia is a long project. Many topics must be covered. They improve each week, month, year. We are here in front of one problem : given we don't really know what is true or not we have to choose between

the risk of not writing something true

the risk of writing something not true.

I think the second risk is greater than the first one. As a consequence -for this article- I would suggest that :

nobody changes anything or insert comments in the article without discussing this before

nobody inserts comments that do not meet unanimity of approval.

I think this protects the article against the more important risk but permits to go on working on it and answers in practice much critics written above.

Christophe Greffe 10:12, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (1/0/0/1)

• I'm not sure. I'm minded to say "this is indeed policy; just implement it already, and ask on WP:AN/I or whatever for backup if you need it", but on the other hand, perhaps we should accept it to look as the policy violations apparently taking place. Would appreciate further commentry (esp. by other Arbitrators, or uninvolved parties). James F. (talk) 00:47, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
• Accept to examine all issues Fred Bauder 16:41, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Message to Arbitrators

We are all enetitle to at least get your response will you take this case. You seem to understand the garvity of the situation: Wikipedia has become a place for anti-Israel propeganda and you are hesitating to take a stand because either way will get you in trouble. I have argued fo a long time that Wikipedia is currently unable to deal with articles about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict with it's current policies and methods. Just take a look at Palestinian exodus and you will see what I mean.

It is time you make your rulling will you hear this case, limiting it to only the sources issue is dogding the real question: Can wikipedia really be NPOV ? If yes: Get the plolicis implemented, if not: Change the policies. Zeq 15:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is also a place for Zionist propaganda. This is quite all right. The article can legitimately include strong expressions of both points of view. It can not contain an accusation of attempted genocide unless there are good sources for it. The decision will contain the following boilerplate: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view contemplates fair expression of all significant point of view regarding a subject. That includes anti-Israeli and Zionist points of view. But not bogus things like the Protocols of Zion or other material from unreliable sources. Fred Bauder 15:13, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Nice try. Why don'y you try to interduce the so-called "Zionist point of view" to articles such as Palestinian exodus ?

As for claimes about genocide when there was none: Read the talk of the article: Both I and Heptor have long ago agreed to remove unsourced claimes (such as those you mention) from the article. The mere fact that you divide the world into "zionist" and "non-zionist" shows pretty clearly what your thoughts on the subject are. You should have recuse yourself from dealing with a subject on which you have bias. If you think Wikipedia is NPOV on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict this is indeed a good joke. Zeq 17:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I move that Mr. Bauder will recuse himslef from this case, as well as any other case dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict on the grounds that Mr. Bauder claimed that "Wikipedia is also a place for Zionist propaganda" but was unable to back up his claim with any meaningfull evidence. The use of the term "Zionist propaganda" fits people such as the Iranian president and should not have been used in the context of a civilized debate. Zeq 20:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I really need to start a hall of fame for appallingly bad ideas presented to the arbcom. Phil Sandifer 20:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Your "hall of fame" is really your own but if you have a worthey opinion on the matter you should respect us in explaining why you think claims such as "Wikipedia is also a place for Zionist propaganda" should be left unanswered.

You see if this was true this means this encyclopdia mechanisms (such as NPOV) don't work properly (and you and Mr. Bauder should work to make this encyclopedia better instead of wasting time on starting a "hall of fame") by removing or correctly identifying such propeganda and if this "zionist propeganda" claim false it means the ArbCom has a biased member who see "Zionost Propeganda" where there actually isn't any. Let me also suggest that you review the policy on No personal attck before you charterized suggestions by editors as worthy of "hall of fame for appallingly bad ideas presented to the arbcom" Zeq 20:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

• I renew my request to the members of the ArbCom to rule if they accept this case or not. Zeq 20:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Another response to Fred Bauder

I'm afraid that Fred Bauder's reaction indicates that the issue is again being obscured. I repeat, no one ever claimed there was attempted genocide in the war. The claim was made that there were calls for genocide by major Arab leaders, which in working on this article, I have come to believe fell on relatively disinterested ears; while there were significant numbers of potential genociders (on both sides) and atrocities certainly occurred, there is no indication that there was a popular uprising of mass murderers on either side.

Rather the claim was made that there were genocidal calls to arms by major Arab figures, and that, despite the fact that the Arab population was largely not interested in killing all the Jews and was even ambivalent about the war, in the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust, the Jews at the time (facing an "enemy" whose population was vastly greater than their own) heard those calls for their mass murder by major Arab figures and believed—and maybe more importantly, Jews since then came to believe—that this particular war was a war aimed at their annihilation.

The truth of what "would have happened" is not an issue. That would be speculation. Despite the Mufti's (and some of his followers') documentable genocidal intentions/statements/acts, there is no evidence of what could be called "attempted genocide." That is not the issue. However, to leave out the genocidal view of the war (whether or not it is accurate) and the belief by virtually one whole side of this conflict (and many others) that the Jews would have been annihilated if they lost, is to leave out well documented facts (that such a view and such a belief exist/existed) that are crucial to how this war was understood and how it is still understood today. And there is no basis whatsoever for keeping out of the article facts, such as the calls for genocide, except maybe to make the Jews look bad.

This is the issue: Both sides claim to be horrendously and murderously treated in the conflict. The Jews claim that only their repeated success in battle prevented their annihilation. Regardless of the truth of this claim (which again, is not the issue here), in a series of Wikipedia articles, Jewish atrocities have been highlighted and presented in a way to indicate Palestinian victimhood. Meanwhile, what the Jews were facing and reacting to has been censored or downplayed, as in this debate. Why? The claim is made that it is just a question of sufficient documentation. I think a careful analysis of the facts will show that that isn't the case. Kriegman 22:56, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

• I renew my call for the members of the ArbCom to make a rulling if they accept to hear this case or not. (While Mr. Bauder is recused for a cause from this and any other Israeli-Palestinian maters) Zeq 05:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Requests for Clarification

Requests for clarification from the Arbcom on matters related to the arbitration process.

Ted Kennedy Edits and Sockpuppet

24.147.97.230 was banned for three months for edit warring on Ted Kennedy. The same edits are now being made to Ted Kennedy and Rosemary Kennedy by User:24.147.103.146. These are both Comcast static IP addresses in Massachusetts. If a banned anonymous editor uses a neighbor's cable modem to edit, is that considered a sockpuppet or a meatpuppet? Robert McClenon 12:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

One often cannot know, but if it acts like a duck, treat it as a duck, which is to say, the remedies in the decision apply to the new puppet. Fred Bauder 15:10, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Everyking 3 enforcement clarification

"X) Everyking shall not interact with, or comment in any way (directly or indirectly) about, Snowspinner, on any page in Wikipedia. Should he do so, he may be blocked by any administrator (other than Snowspinner) for a short time, up to one week; after the fifth such violation, the maximum block length shall be one year."

Just to make sure I've got the nitty gritty details right, Everyking is permitted to edit articles that Snowspinner edits as well under the following conditions:

1. Everyking follows the same rules everyone else does.
2. Everyking does not revert Snowspinner's edits, or target them for removal or modification in anyway.
3. Everyking does not engage Snowspinner in discussion, or discuss his edits, on any page, and/or edit summaries
4. Everyking avoids non-incidental interaction Snowspinnner, as outlined by the above.

--That sound about right?--Tznkai 04:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

"Everyking does not engage Snowspinner in discussion, or discuss his edits, on any page, and/or edit summaries" -- not quite. Everyking is not to mention, gesture, indicate, or gesticulate in any way that implies Snowspinner or any action taken by Snowspinner (including, but not limited, to Snowspinner's edits). Raul654 04:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

So replace "edits" with exitence or actions, and discussion with an exhasutive list of communication mediums?--Tznkai 05:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Xed: some unanswered questions

Since this is the place to request clarification on matters related to the arbitration process, I figured I might try to draw attention to three unanswered questions of mine on Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Xed 2/Proposed decision. It concerns a question about a proposed remedy of a year-long ban, one about the proposed finding of fact that Snowspinner be commended for his course of action in this case, and one about the beginnings of this case in general. The first two were placed on December 21, 2005 and the third on December 23, 2005.

Now, I don't know how long it usually takes the arbitrators to get to questions like that, so I hope I'm not too impatient (if I am, I sincerely apologize), but especially since the motion to close has been started I thought it wouldn't hurt to draw attention to the three questions here. Thanks very much. — mark ✎ 21:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Things slow down if we are disagreeing and having trouble. Fred Bauder 02:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

OK. I'll have some more patience, then; just had to hear that the questions were not being ignored. — mark ✎ 08:28, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

What the....Fred, you just voted to close the case. How can you reconcile that with your statement above? Everyking 08:57, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Four days later, and I'm still waiting. One arbitrators has now addmitted that 'one year may a bit long', but has supported the remedy anyway and proceeded to vote to close the case, just like Fred did; so two arbitrators have voted to close the case since I put this question here to get some attention. What am I to make of this? Is this the way to reduce the workload? — mark ✎ 08:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet check User:Zephram Stark

Note: I'm posting this here because it concerns Zephram Stark's ArbCom case. I also wanted the entire ArbCom to be aware of this request so that there are no implications that I singled out certain arbitrators to perform this sockpuppet check.

I'm requesting that the ArbCom confirm whether Peter McConaughey (talk · contribs) is a sockpuppet of banned Zephram Stark (talk · contribs). I believe there's more than enough evidence to warrant use of CheckUser:

• Zephram Stark was banned on 12 November 2005 (for six months). Peter's first edit was on 23 November 2005.

• Both editors focused on terrorism (Zephram on Terrorism, Peter on American terrorism), Declaration of Independence (United States) and Inalienable rights. Taking a look at the history of Inalienable rights shows very similar edits and edit summaries on this low-traffic article.

• Both editors are extremely vocal about alleged administrative abuse and are prone to Wikilawyering and long diatribes.

• Both editors have used original diagrams to illustrate their points. Peter Image:Organization_layout.gif and Zephram created Image:IAR.gif.

• Both editors have entered in conflicts with many of the same users. Besides myself, Peter has also been in conflict with User:Commodore Sloat, even denying that he was Zephram with the same use of sexual innuendo [33] that Zephram commonly used. Carbonite | Talk 13:29, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

• Any doubt that Peter is not a sockpuppet of Zephram should be put to rest with this evidence. On 10 November 2005, Zephram created Coving. This obscure article has only been edited twice more, most recently by Peter McConaughey on 20 December 2005 [34].

• Peter has commented [35] about CheckUser:

"The Cabal is hoping that vague innuendo will be enough to create an official case. After they gain the legal right to snoop my personal information, they will be free to reveal what they already know. Don't be surprised to hear something along the lines of, "We had no idea about this before the case opened, but look what we have discovered now that we have a legal right to investigate the personal information about this editor!"

Of course, none of the information they reveal will be direct or a threat to Wikipedia in any way, but it will be enough to hang me in the court of public opinion. We all have skeletons in our closet."

Though this comment seemed like paranoia when I first read it, it makes much more sense due to his status as a sockpuppet of a banned user. There's more circumstantial evidence, but I believe this should be sufficient for a CheckUser. Carbonite | Talk 13:29, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Note: Additional IP info on Zephram can be found in his RfC. Carbonite | Talk 13:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I could not get anything from Checkuser today on either of them. Fred Bauder 14:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm assuming this a server/database issue and that when CheckUser is back online this information may be available. Is this correct? If so, what would you recommend doing until CheckUser is back online? I'm very concerned that Peter/Zephram is (and has been) causing a good deal of disruption by circumventing his ban. Carbonite | Talk 14:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

CheckUser relies upon recent changes, which is the only store of IP addresses within the database. If the information is not in the recent changes cache, then it is not available to those using CheckUser. Rob Church ^Talk 01:00, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I support looking into this user for the reasons Carbonite suggested. My suspicions began after a few repeated instances of nonsense from this user on the World Islamic Front discussion page. The nonsense is accompanied with a supposedly authoritative chart that he only later in the discussion admitted was of his own creation. I haven't looked at his other edits but my sense on this page is that he is, as another editor noted above, needling people to try to pick fights over non-issues. It reminded me of another user, who coincidentally stopped editing a couple weeks before Peter M started editing. It looks like at least two of Peter M's obsessions are the same as Zephram's were -- terrorism and the Declaration of Independence. When I voiced my suspicions, his response was telling -- very much in the style of Zephram's writing. Other recent irrelevant comments about my sex life (see also here) and further comments in his edit summary seeming to call out Jews and Muslims in an inflammatory manner provide more evidence to me confirming my suspicion that he may be User:Zephram Stark. Then there is the sheer nonsense -- at one point he asked about a perceived inconsistency in the article. I responded with a quite simple (and obvious) answer. His response was some bizarre reference to "death-eaters".

After this discussion proceeded and it became clear that he could not defend his position adequately, another user mysteriously appears. I believe this other user to be a sockpuppet too. User:MACMILLAN entered the discussion out of the blue, changing the article and obnoxiously claiming "I AM A TERRORIST EXPERT" in his edit summary, and on the discussion page claiming to have seen additional translations of a document that we were discussing there. When pressed, he did not produce any additional translations, nor defend his alleged expertise at all. His user page claims that his name is "Gabriel MacMillan," certainly not a known name of any terrorism expert. He would not answer when pressed for details about the translation he claims to have seen or about his own expertise (publications, even conferences attended). The community of scholars in counterterrorism is not large, and while I do not consider myself an "expert," my own work touches on these issues, and I have researched the documents in question, and I find no support whatsoever for his claim that there are alternate translations of this document available. What really gave it away for me is a catchphrase commonly used by Zephram, also used both by Peter McC and by MACMILLAN, as a way of disingenuously avoiding actually discussing issues on the page: something to the effect of "my main interest is in improving the quality of the article, not fighting with you". Compare MACMILLAN, Peter, Peter, Peter, and of course Zephram. (There are many more examples of Zephram using similiar phrases in this way if you look through his edit history around August-September 2005).

Finally there is one more editor whose work is suspicious here, and that is User:The Random Element. His user page reminds me very much of Zephram's old user page, with its meandering parables. He entered the debate on this page and Peter stepped in supposedly to mediate between myself and him (which is where the "Jews" comment came in). Taking a look at his edit history, I see some strange edits as well as obnoxious examples of WP:POINT. This user may not be Zephram - there is not enough information to tell - but I would take a look at his IP as well if possible.

Overall I have found Peter McC's edits to be destructive to Wikipedia, and his comments in Talk are what led me to the conclusion that he is the same sock puppeteer as the person behind Zephram Stark. One final piece of evidence - when challenged on this point he at one point claimed to have "researched him" (Zephram) and pointed misleadingly to Zephram's edits on Wikispecies, a different site. Apparently Zephram is on that site causing trouble as well, making graphical charts that look similar to the one produced by Peter here. He is apparently writing a Wikibook also. I think Peter's link to this page (rather than to Mr. Stark's ubiquitous activities here at Wikipedia) is an obvious attempt to feign ignorance of Stark's disruption of wikipedia in previous months.--csloat 22:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Instantnood page moves

In the 'nood ArbCom decisions "1) Instantnood (talk · contribs) is restricted to proposing only one page move, poll of editors, or policy change relating to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) per week."

What should be done when he doesn't actually propose a move, but just uses subterfuge to get what he wants?

In the ArbCom case there was plenty of evidence in the start of the case that he was abusing the rename process by repeatedly asking for "Foo of Taiwan" to be renamed "Foo of the Republic of China". Now that ArbCom closed the case with that restriction above, he just avoids the rename process altogether. Yesterday there was an existing category Taiwanese newspapers that corresponded with the naming convention in Category:Newspapers by country (ie, "Foobarnese newspapers" as opposed to "Newspapers of Foobar"). To get what he wants without actually proposing a rename he created a parallel category (Newspapers of the Republic of China), put it in Newspapers by country and other parent categories, then deprecated Taiwanese newspapers by removing it from the parent categories.

Meanwhile, while the new category sits on CfD, with an overwhelming early consensus to delete, he's insisting that either his, or BOTH of the categories should exist in the parent categories [36] [37].

So, he hasn't actually proposed to rename the the category, he just wants to create two parallel categories and move them around in the category structure. (Creating parallel forks isn't new behavior from him, but it fell through the cracks in the case.)

Also meanwhile, he's not "proposing a move" merely "seeking clarification" on another ROC/Taiwan move, Media in Taiwan.

And I'd also like the ArbCom to consider removing the words "relating to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese)" from this restriction on his behavior. I'm mostly not involved, but he's currently edit warring with other editors on half a dozen articles related to the naming of food of all things and whether they should be named with Cantonese, Mandarin, or English. [38] [39], etc. These aren't related to the Chinese naming conventions, but mere mortal editors shouldn't have to try and keep up with his proposals and unilateral moves.

- SchmuckyTheCat 22:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

What should be done when he doesn't actually propose a move, but just uses subterfuge to get what he wants? Then it counts as a move. As to the edit warring over food names, guess there are some general problems we didn't handle. Fred Bauder 03:05, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Is there an enforcement mechanism for this, or just an admonishment? (The same question could be said about the edit summary statement - "is reminded to make useful edit summaries.") SchmuckyTheCat 21:19, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Instantnood_2#Instantnood_placed_on_probation will have to serve. However, this requires an administrator with the energy and interest to look into it and actually do something. Fred Bauder 14:16, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

That was not a rename. Republic of China and Taiwan means something different. I am not proposing to move newspapers published in Taiwan to the parent category for the Republic of China, which Taiwan is, contemporarily, a major part of. The relevant Wikipedia policies, including the NPOV policy, have been listed here [40]. As a matter of fact, user:SchmuckyTheCat tried several times to delink the category he has nominated to CfD from all other categories ([41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47]), although the CfD is in process.

The disputes around the articles on food is not only around their names, and they're not related to the previous arbitration case. — Instantnood 21:01, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

It's your contention, not the communities, that RoC and Taiwan mean something different. The category existed, you delinked it when you created a new replacement category. A duck by any other name still quacks. SchmuckyTheCat 03:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

If you're not agreeing with the NPOV policies, please proceed to propose changes to them. Don't disrupt Wikipedia by reverting edits made based on those policies, and, to the worst, nominating something to deletion by producing false accusations there. — Instantnood 09:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I think this entire exchange here with the numerous openly hostile comments Schmucky has made toward Instant or anyone who in anyway supports a viewpoint like Instant's or even advocates a modicum of decorum shows the action taken by the ArbCom just didn't go far enough here. The edit warring continues across several articles, Schmucky has flat out said he intends on being hostile and continue what sounds like a crusade when he describes it against Instant [48]. The ink is hardly dry from the decision and the warring continues. --Wgfinley 04:02, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Zen-master again

Zen-master is on probation regarding all articles. Does that include pages in the Wikipedia namespace? The reason I'm asking is that he's recently been active in some (rather spurious) policy proposals. Radiant_>|< 22:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I am interested in hearing any evidence or argument Radiant can come up with that explains and justifies his labeling Peter's WP:0RR guideline or any other "policy" proposal I've "recently been active in" as being "spurious". I will also note the coincidence that Peter is unable to defend his guideline against charges of being "spurious" as he was just blocked for 24 hours for accusing Carbonite of being a "troll" because Carbonite initially moved the WP:0RR guideline to Peter's user namespace because of a header dispute (among other actions that are seemingly unbecomming of an admin and don't appear to have been done with an assumption of good faith in mind). Feel free to disagree with any guideline but please don't thwart its acceptance by others. zen master T 23:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Zen-master#Zen-master_placed_on_probation includes any page other than his own user and talk pages. Whether he is being disruptive is up to the determination of the banning administrator. Any ban should be logged and documented. Fred Bauder 23:39, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

But some actual reasonable argument has to be attempted that explains specifically how I have, if ever, been "disruptive". Instead of repeating labels over and over again why don't you or someone get down to specifics? Please note WP:Probation policy: "A [probation] ban may be imposed only for good cause which shall be documented in a section set aside for that purpose in the arbitration case. Banning without good cause or in bad faith shall be grounds for censure, restriction, or removal of administrative access". At this point I interpret everytime I've been labeled as "disruptive" was and is some sort of misdirection ploy so people don't focus on numerous highly biased and biasing articles, with the most notable and nefarious example being race and intelligence. zen master T 01:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Netoholic

I would like to discuss my status with respect to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Netoholic 2.

The mentorship agreement specified that users Raul654, Kim Bruning and Grunt would act as my mentors. It said also "If the mentors think it is working, they can lessen or end their supervision of Netoholic's editing. If they consider it has failed — at the six month review or at any earlier time — the namespace and revert restriction in remedy 2 will take effect."

Over time, all three of my mentors ended their supervision for various reasons. On June 28th, Kim Bruning stepped aside as my mentor. Grunt became inactive as of July 5. On July 19th, Raul654 resigned recommending an alternate "probation" approach.

What I'd like confirmation is whether these resignations fulfilled the "end their supervision" clause. In the above linked resignations, neither Kim or Raul654 indicated that the mentorship failed, but mentioned leaving for personal reasons or because of the way the mentorship arrangement was designed. That arrangement was flawed because the community was asked to bring up concerns with the mentors directly. This meant that even minor disagreements were propogated to three different talk pages, which lead to a lot of stress.

In short, I'd like to ask to be relieved of any Arbitration edit restrictions presently in place. -- Netoholic @ 18:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

While I agree strongly that Netoholic should not be, at this point, under as draconian a set of restrictions as he currently is - particularly the template restrictions, where I think he's a needed force for pointing out that consensus does not get to override the developers saying "Please don't do this," I would caution on the other hand that edits such as [49] do make me worry that some of the incivility problems have not corrected themselves. On the other hand, that Netoholic's behavior has in general improved while under parole seems clear, and it may be that the remaining issues can only be fixed through experience. So I, at least, offer my tepid support of this. Which, considering my history with this conflict, probably actually still counts for a lot. :) Phil Sandifer 18:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Netoholic and Snowspinner are actually working together. Holy goodness me! Net still needs to grasp the finer points of dealing with f*ckw diplomacy, but has come to both of us for help in these matters, with good productive effect. A strong caution about dealing gently with policy should remain - but he seems to be getting this point, which is excellent. We each have our strengths and weaknesses, after all ... - David Gerard 20:13, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Can we please get some comments here? Netoholic has been tremendously helpful of late in dealing with the requirements of WP:AUM, but has had to do so flouting his parole and editing templates... which is unfortunate, and a situation that ought to be brought to an end. Phil Sandifer 06:52, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I've been on Wiki-break for a while but one of the first things I checked when I got back was what Neto has been up to and I am pleased to see things have really turned around. I agree with David's proposal on this 100% and if I can assist in any way I would be happy to. --Wgfinley 20:52, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

While we're appealing this case, btw, can we also overturn the findings that say that AUM is not policy, since they imply a really godawful precedent that the community can meaningfully have a lack of consensus to obey the developers? Phil Sandifer 06:16, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not policy, because there are occasions where it is fruitful to use them. That doesn't mean it's not damn good advice and should still be followed. There must be a good reason to use a meta-template, and anyone who says otherwise is a fool. The MoS still should be obeyed, personal attacks must not be made, nor may original research be put into the main namespace. The ArbCom may not create policy. AUM completely fits in the template category without losing its effect. That said, I fully support any motion to remove Netoholic's restrictions on editing categories. I would, on the other hand, also support a motion to put him on probation with regard to the template namespace only. [[Sam Korn]] 19:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

With regard to Template:stars this user appears to have driven though a set of changes via bot that is out of keeping with the removal of the template which has not yet happened as far as I can see, still a confused situation. Anywaty his BOT remoaved references to the template:stars and replace with just e.g. (3/5) rather that the e.g. File:3 out of 5.png that was there before tamplate:stars was in use. Is this the right way to make mass changes. Kevinalewis 11:02, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Bots are the right way to make mass changes, but they should be used only once consensus has been reached. In this case, the TFD for Template:Stars was closed prematurely by Snowspinner. —Locke Cole 11:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

It was? If it was, that's wholly my error - I must have read the date wrong. Phil Sandifer 02:23, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

See Template talk:Stars#Bot for my view.—jiy (talk) 09:32, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• What is the official line on this? Is Netoholic still banned from editing in the template namespace? Because from this and this, it sure looks like he is ignoring the directives put in effect when the mentorship disbanded. Bratsche^{talk | Esperanza} 21:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Netoholic is technically prohibited from editing in the Wikipedia and template namespaces. However, several arbitrators (myself and David Gerard in particular) have expressed approval of what Netoholic has been doing vis-a-vis killing metatemplates and possibly creating some sort of exception for that. Raul654 21:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

While the meta-template problems outlined at WP:AUM have apparently become more severe over time the way Netoholic is going about addressing them is unneccessarily confrontational. With one template after another he has made un-announced changes, people have said 'ack, you broke feature XYZ' and reverted it, and he has reverted back and said basically that AUM takes precedence over their concerns. No reason for it. These changes can be tested in advance with old and new version of the template side by side before being implemented Wiki-wide... rather than making complete rewrites directly to the template with no regard to potential havoc throughout the article space. Advance notification on related wikiprojects might also be a good idea. --CBD _☎ ^✉ 22:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

That is a gross mischaracterization. I have not caused "havoc" nor put in place any change which I could foresee as causing any problem. I am at your service if you ever discover an issue with any of my template renovations. Just contact me and describe the problem. Except for putting any meta-template back in operation, I will work with you. -- Netoholic @ 17:28, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm just saying that this, this, the stuff about Infobox pope above, and suchlike didn't need to be. The work you are doing is important, but it could be accomplished more smoothly with a bit more discussion and testing before implementation. --CBD _☎ ^✉ 18:18, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Would a motion then be in order? If this position (allowing Netoholic to edit the previously prohibited namespaces) is prevalent amongst the ArbCom members, then it would be nice to put it into writing or some other format. Administrators such as myself are supposed to be strictly enforcing the ArbCom rulings on these matters. If Netoholic is allowed to act by the ArbCom contrary to the motions set down, it would be nice to let us know. Bratsche^{talk | Esperanza} 23:25, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Note: Netoholic is the subject of a separate RfA at the top of this page for more issues with his behaviour. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 23:31, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Clarification of User:SEWilco probation

The terms of the probation at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Climate change dispute_2 say:

3) SEWilco should not use a bot to convert citations on articles, nor should he manually 
convert citation styles on any articles.

I'd like to understand if this diff is a permissible use of a bot, or a violation of the arbcom decision. On the face of it it seems like a contravention of the decision. Is there something I'm missing? I have blocked the bot temporarily (24 hours) while trying to understand this issue. If I'm mistaken and this is a permissible use, any admin should feel free to undo the block (but please explain to me how to distinguish permissible from impermissible bot edits). Thanks, Nandesuka 15:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

SEWilco indicates on my talk page that he thinks its a permissible use because the article style already uses WP:FN. But the way the remedy is written is "should not use a bot to convert citations on articles" (emphasis added), not "convert articles". So if this use is permissible, a clarification is very much needed. Nandesuka 15:08, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The article already uses WP:FN style, and I created a citation where there had been none.. A URL link alone is not a citation. "complete citations — also called "references," because the citations identify the referred-to sources — are collected at the end of the article under a ==References== heading". (SEWilco 16:02, 24 December 2005 (UTC))

He is correct, the article is already using Wikipedia:Footnotes style. He is technically violating the arbitration remedy but the violation is harmless. I don't think we will modify the remedy, but the evil addressed is changing a bunch of articles that are in some other format to the footnotes format without concensus not the particular use here. As we impressed on SEWilco, at great length, merely technical violations may or may not be enforced. Fred Bauder 16:35, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

SEWilco is gaming. I just blocked RefBot indefinitely (second account created to evade ArbCom ruling) and SEWilco 48 hours (creating second account to evade ArbCom ruling) - David Gerard 18:27, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

That is incorrect. RefBot is my third account, not second. It was not created to evade the ArbCom ruling; not only was it created before the ArbCom ruling, and the ruling does not distinguish between my accounts, but actually User:RefBot was created because its abilities are becoming too specialized for the utility account User:SEWilcoBot. So far 0.5% of the Admins have been involved, and it would save everyone effort if you'd ask questions before acting in ignorance. (SEWilco 01:33, 27 December 2005 (UTC))

Clarification necessary

The phrasing "convert citations on articles, nor should he manually convert citation styles on any articles." is overly ambiguous. I've been blocked due to following WP:CITE and defining a missing citation in an article which uses WP:FN. Apparently any change from [[http://example.com/]] to {{ref|example.com}} is not allowed. Is changing * John Smith: "My Autobiography" to * Smith, John: "My Autobiography" allowed? There are many things which can be called "citations" and "citation styles", such as changing (pp. 33-41) to (Smith pp. 33-41) when content changes make the first format incorrect. The discussion had only mentioned a few situations. (SEWilco 01:45, 27 December 2005 (UTC))

Yes, your block was over a technicality. I suggest that before you run a bot doing any of the things you suggest you, and others, hammer out on the policy pages a definite policy which establishes whatever format is under discussion as agreed policy. This matter is really over that, proceeding prior to establishment of a definite policy. It may be no policy can be agreed on. In that case, just wait. Fred Bauder 14:05, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Isn't it already agreed that an article should use one format, and editors should follow that format? That's what I was doing when adding a WP:FN citation to an article in WP:FN format. (SEWilco 15:35, 27 December 2005 (UTC))

On second thought, looking at the above comment I made. That is a kind of Breshnev comment, "stagnation should continue..." I really don't think that is going to get us anywhere. However you have a knack of coming up with formats that I and, probably others, don't like. Fred Bauder 14:20, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I and the others using WP:FN come up with those formats (used in 3 of most recent 10 WP:FAC). And WP:CITE repeatedly emphasizes that complete citations should exist, yet when I add full citations they sometimes (rarely) get deleted without that deletion being acknowledged as being an improper action. I can easily add citations which are not linked from the appropriate text, but then updating references and citations manually becomes quite difficult (try finding the citation for the 8th note in Global cooling, then imagine the same format for the 44th note in (old:Killian documents)). Manual edits are likely to orphan old citations and reduce Verifiability. (SEWilco 15:35, 27 December 2005 (UTC))

The ruling is quite clear, that you should not change citation styles. While this was obviously referring to your insistence on removing inline citations, if you are in any doubt at all, then you should avoid making any changes. This is not the page to try to argue that your preferred style is the better one. Jayjg ^(talk) 07:03, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The phrasing of the ruling is simple, but the ruling not clear. The meanings of "convert", "citation", and "style" are ambiguous. "Citation" can mean the phrasing or WikSyntax description of source material in text, the "complete citation" (WP:CITE phrasing about what often goes in a "References" section) which provides details about a source, or the conceptual connection between text and "complete citation". "Convert" can mean rearranging, adding, moving, or deleting all or part of entries. So far only 3 Arbs have agreed that in an article using WP:FN for all other citations that the move of a single URL to a full citation with a WP:FN link is to "convert" the information (I saw it as addition or maintenance, not conversion). Is adding a full citation without linking to it a "conversion" or addition? "Style" can mean the WikiSyntax used, the exact or similar visual appearance on the page, the general patterns (numbered or bulleted lists, sorted order, journal vs news phrasing, consistent or chaotic lists), specific patterns used (author name format, standard publication names, phrasing (chapter/ch.,pages/p./pp.)). The ambiguities are also apparent in the ongoing consolidation of WP:CITET: is changing template parameters from uppercase ("Author=") to lowercase ("author=") a violation? Such a change can be a violation on several levels: Discussion of a conversion can cause change, changing a template can cause changes in citations in several ways, and replacing "Author=" with "author=" in article citations is a citation change. Is a (rhetorical) merge of {{news reference}} and {{journal reference}} which requires translation to [[Template:published reference]] a violation? (Actually, all WP:CITET is being consolidated toward a single template) (SEWilco 16:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC))

Please assume the broadest possible interpretation. We will back up any administrator that blocks you under a broad interpretation. Meanwhile help work out policy. Fred Bauder 18:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to point out that SEWilco did list his bot account for approval at Wikipedia talk:Bots at 19:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC). Am I to presume that he should not be permitted to use this bot due to the ArbCom ruling? --AllyUnion (talk) 08:02, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

After reading comments above, I will make note in the request page that his bot is not approved due to ArbCom rulings. --AllyUnion (talk) 08:04, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Motions in prior cases

(Only Arbitrators may make such motions)

Motions to extend ban on Ciz editing (5/0/0/0)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ciz#Prevention_from_editing_Zoophilia is modified to:

Ciz (using whatever account or IP address) is prevented indefinitely from editing Zoophilia and its closely-related articles, or any editing related to the subjects of zoophilia, bestiality, animal sexuality, or human-animal relationships in any article, including their talk pages. Whether an article or page concerns these subjects shall be determined by the enforcing administrator.

Support:

1. Fred Bauder 16:21, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
2. James F. (talk) 09:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
3. ➥the Epopt 23:55, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
4. Kelly Martin (talk) 00:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
5. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Oppose:

Abstain:

Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Ciz#Attempts_to_edit_Zoophilia is modified to:

If Ciz (using whatever account or IP address) edits Zoophilia or its closely related articles, or makes any edit which relates to zoophilia, bestiality, animal sexuality, or human-animal relationships in any article, or their talk pages, such changes made may be reverted by any editor and any administrator may, at his/her discretion, briefly block Ciz (up to a week in the case of repeat violations). After 5 blocks the maximum block shall increase to one year.

Support:

1. Fred Bauder 16:21, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
2. James F. (talk) 09:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
3. ➥the Epopt 23:55, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
4. Kelly Martin (talk) 00:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
5. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Oppose:

Abstain:

See discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Ciz#User:_DrBat_--_continuing_breaches_of_previous_ArbCom_ruling

Motion to ban User:Pigsonthewing (3/1/0/1)

Upon review of Pigsonthewing's article edits for the month of December, I find nothing that does not appear to be edit warring. (Updated: It has been pointed out to me that he has some useful edits in the early part of December, but only one of any quality since the case against him closed on the 10th, and nothing but edit warring since the 12th. Kelly Martin (talk) 18:54, 30 December 2005 (UTC)) His probation does not appear to be going well. In general his contributions elsewhere are divisive, bordering on wikistalking of Karmafist and possibly other editors, and his continued presence on Wikipedia is clearly creating more heat than light. Accordingly, I move that Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pigsonthewing be modified include the following remedy:

Pigsonthewing (talk · contribs) (using whatever account or IP address) is banned from Wikipedia for a period of one year.

Support:

1. Kelly Martin (talk) 18:02, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
2. one well-sourced edit does not save him — a broken clock may be right twice a day but it should still be thrown out ➥the Epopt 00:35, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
3. per the Epopt. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 23:04, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Oppose:

1. Fred Bauder 18:39, 30 December 2005 (UTC) see [50] Check this out on Google and you'll see this edit is well sourced.

Abstain:

1. James F. (talk) 13:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC) I have yet to be convinced (both that his continued presence is a net benefit to the encyclopædia, or a net hinderance).

Outside comment: I believe you've finally gotten his undivided attention [51]. --Calton | Talk 10:05, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

No, it was posted by POTW (talk · contribs), not Pigsonthewing (talk · contribs). He was blocked, but AFAIK that block doesn't affect his ability to post at his userpage (so there was no reason to use a doppleganger account). Checkuser could verify if it's really him though. —Locke Cole • t • c 10:07, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

As a follow-up, it was determined by Kelly Martin (via CheckUser) that POTW (talk · contribs) was not Pigsonthewing (talk · contribs). The comment has since been removed, and POTW (talk · contribs) has been indefinitely blocked. —Locke Cole • t • c 18:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Outside comment: I strongly disagree with this action. It is troubling that Pigsonthewing's many positive contributions in December were first stated to be non-existant, then described as one by the Epopt, and then as only 'some' by Kelly. Information on his contributions is easily available, yet portrayed inaccurately here. If this action is to be justified it should be based on a factual record. The start of this descent into acrimony was a false accusation of Pigsonthewing having violated 3RR, which was used to cover an improper (Sysop powers must not be used to win a dispute about content) block and page protection solely based on a content dispute. Similarly inaccurate accusations should not be the end of it. The ridicule and indifference to justified complaints which Pigsonthewing has received from the admin community in general has been shameful. That does not serve to deny that his response has been equally bad, nor that his contributions prior to this mistreatment sometimes caused disruptions. Yes, his behaviour has been reprehensible... as bad as that of some of his detractors. However, had the admin community not mocked him for daring to complain about the original admin abuse, not repeatedly blocked him for the most specious of 'offenses', taken action to stop blatant harassment against him, or otherwise treated Pigsonthewing with basic fairness this situation might never have come to pass. If any action is to be taken here the previous arbitration should be fully re-opened so that both cause and effect may be considered. Or we could forgive Pigsonthewing his trespasses in hopes that he will then forgive ours (provided we stop making them). --CBD _☎ ^✉ 16:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why the community should listen to him on the Administrator boards for his constant troll requests while he didn't listen or respond to his rfc or rfar. He contributes nothing but exasperation to all those he meets, basically trying to game the system to quash those who disagree with his views. Just look at his recent contribs, over 95% of them are basically just trolling around on other user pages and various areas in gathering ideas and support in trying to attack me. A year isn't enough, but it's a start, and who knows, CBD might be right in the opinion that there's something reedemable in POTW, I hope he is, but I sincerely doubt it for the foreseeable future. Regardless of whether there is or not, it has to be evident that he's turned over a new leaf and I could feel secure that he'd never drive another user to fear of using his own name as in the case of Leonig Mig (talk · contribs), before issues like this stop coming up. karmafist 18:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

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