Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

Capitalization of "president"

I don't know if this MoS needs more or better examples, or if I am just bad at explaining it. See Talk:Valdostan Union. Chris the speller ^yack 13:43, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

It's more likely the other editor doesn't want to listen. Your only recourse is probably use of a noticeboard or an RfC. Argument is futile when people have decided how they want text to appear and don't care about policy or guidelines. TFD (talk) 03:15, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Resolved

I think somebody got educated. Chris the speller ^yack 16:23, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

maiden names

If we only have a given and married name for a spouse, how does this MOS recommend making it clear that when we say "John Smith", we're referring to John-having-married-Mike Smith and not that "John Smith" married "Mike Smith"? — Fourthords | =Λ= | 15:27, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

See the article about Jane Pitfield. Even when she ran for mayor Toronto, I could not find any sources for her maiden name. it might be an example of how we should treat this matters. In many cases, women are known by their married names, such as Margaret Thatcher, and few people know their maiden names. TFD (talk) 16:30, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

If the surname is unknown, it’s ok to just leave the first name in that sentence. Trillfendi (talk) 17:41, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

For an article about a city councilor who is not otherwise notable, it's probably not appropriate to include the maiden name or the spouse's surname given WP:BLPPRIVACY, unless they are "widely published by reliable sources". – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 17:47, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Assumed pronouns with no specific evidence

I'm trying to figure out what pronouns should be used for individuals when we don't have evidence either way of what pronouns the individual used. The topic came up when I was reading about Albanian sworn virgins. According to this article, there is a citation showing that most but not all Albanian sworn virgins use masculine pronouns. On the other hand, there are articles about such people which use feminine pronouns. I've corrected one of them but it bring up a problem that I'm not sure has been resolved: what pronouns should be used on Wikipedia when we don't have a statement from the individuals? Hammy (talk) 02:27, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I cannot find your edit. Since the plural of he and she is the same (they), I don't see how the issue would arise. TFD (talk) 03:00, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

People specifically stating what pronouns others should use is a very recent custom; for the vast majority of people, and pretty much everyone who died before a few years ago, we simply go by what gender the sources use. MOS:GENDERID says to use the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources (emphasis added). Hammy is talking about this edit, which I have reverted. The Guardian and the Seattle Times refer to her with female pronouns in articles from 2016. They would not have engaged in misgendering. This is an error I had to correct somewhat recently and there was a source being misinterpreted (by someone else) that was taking a statement about another individual and applying it to her. Other articles about Albanian sworn virgins should probably be checked. While a few of those individuals may have been what we today call trans men, a great many would just have been women doing what they felt necessary to live under a society that treated them as property - and in some cases, it was done to them by parents. Nobody should be posthumously implying that anyone was transgender when the sources do not say so. Crossroads ^-talk- 03:24, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Changed name not in lead

MOS:MULTINAMES is mostly about appearance of different names in the lead. What about when the alternate name is not mentioned in the lead, but down in some section? Should it or can it appear in boldface? An example is in Rita Hayworth when she was known as Rita Cansino at the start of her acting career. - Jay ^Talk 11:17, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

clarification on birth and death dates guideline

I am trying to figure out what this paragraph (in the project page, here) means:

Beyond the first paragraph of the lead section, birth and death details should only be included after a name if there is special contextual relevance. Abbreviations like b. and d. can be used, if needed, when space is limited (e.g., in a table) and when used repetitively (e.g., in a list of people).

Another editor has apparently interpreted this to mean that birth and death dates of people mentioned in an article should not be included; that editor made this [edit] to remove birth and death dates of the subject's children. I asked them about this, and they agreed that we could use some clarification here.

So: if an article's subject has a non-notable child, should the birth and death dates of the child be given? The MOS paragraph above seems to suggest the the birth and death dates should not be given (though I do not know what "special contextual relevance" means...what does that mean?). I see no reason why the birth and death dates should not be included, as this is useful information not provided in any other way in these articles (and there are many, many articles that do list the birth and death dates of notable peoples' children). Perhaps the issue is the word "details": are birth and death details different from birth and death dates (are dates a possible part of details?)? Is the MOS saying that dates are okay, but more "detail" than dates are not? I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this. Cheers! Doctormatt (talk) 03:01, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I think children count as "special contextual relevance". I would interpret this clause as meaning birth and death dates should not be included for most people mentioned in an article. Children, spouses, and maybe parents, would be an exception. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:30, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Doctormatt, I won't pass judgement on the diff you cite, because the non-notables in question are deceased and no longer minors. But in general, we do not reproduce the birthdates or exact names of non-notable minor children, in accordance with WP:BLPNAME and WP:CHILDPROTECT. This usually applies to Hollywood celebrities announcing their pregnancy and welcoming their new babies. Elizium23 (talk) 12:32, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I am still unsure what to do here. Can someone say what the intent of the paragraph referenced in my first post is? Why are birth and death dates not okay to include for most people? If a non-minor person does not have a wikipedia article, but they are mentioned in an article, what is the harm in indicating when they were born and died? This seems like helpful information for specifying persons in the more distant past, especially, since many people have the same names. Further, does anyone else support the claim that "special contextual relevance" applies to children? Should I edit the project page to make that clear? If someone could comment on the specific [edit] mentioned above, that would be awesome. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Doctormatt (talk) 03:51, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Why are birth and death dates not okay to include for most people?: Simply, WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Why would should it be included beyond cases with "special contextual relevance"? As for the diff, have you discussed this with the other editor?—Bagumba (talk) 04:27, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I discussed [[1]] this with the other editor. As to your comment regarding "special contextual relevance", I still have no idea what people think this means: this phrase seems much too vague to be helpful in a MOS. As I wrote above, birth and death dates can be useful, for example, for specifying a historical person since names are not unique (and neither are birth and death years, but they help narrow things down). Doctormatt (talk) 05:03, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

A lot of times it's intentionally vague because 1) some people don't like being over-prescriptive 2) "relevance" can vary by topic and it's left to the individual page editors. The two editors above have said it seems reasonable for adult children. Do you have other areas of concern?—Bagumba (talk) 06:36, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I have updated the paragraph in the MOS to add the following sentence: "For example, it is generally acceptable to give such details after the names of parents, spouses, siblings and adult children of an article's subject.". Cheers! Doctormatt (talk) 03:52, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry but I have reverted because I think it needs further discussion. Just because the subject of the article is "a public figure" and thus (apparently) open season for comment and risk of impersonation, that cannot be assumed to apply equally to the subject's relatives. It cannot be assumed that they have the same level of protection. There are serious cases of fraud where banks have been deceived by well-briefed scammers who have date and place of birth, pet names, etc. Whereas they might be extra careful when dealing with a well-known figure, that is much less likely if the person is not well known. Articles should say that the subject has N children, going into the personal details of those children is mere prurience. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:00, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Birth/death dates for relatives are just trivia and usually not relevant to the topic. "Special contextual relevance" is vague but I suspect if you do not have a special reason to include such dates then then are not relevant. If a child, who would have taken over a company, died before the parent, then there is relevance. But ordinarily not. MB 16:11, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Although years (or full dates) of births and deaths of parents and children appear in many biographies on Wikipedia, I don't see that they contribute significant information about the subjects of the articles. If a death in the family caused a change in career or something similar, that would be worthy of mention beyond just a parenthetical insertion, but I see no point in routine inclusion of such facts.Eddie Blick (talk) 16:47, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Fyodor Dostoevsky lists birth and death years of his children (in the infobox!), as well as those of his siblings. Leo Tolstoy has an impressive bulleted list of 13 of his children, each with birth and death years listed. Patrick Brontë lists birth and death years for all of his children, in the infobox and in the Family section. Leon Trotsky lists birth and death years of his parents and his children. Louise Taft lists the birth and death years of her parents. Am I to understand that some editors think these birth and death details should be removed from these articles, and that this is based on their interpretation of this MOS? I am surprised that this historically useful information is considered not worthy of inclusion in a biography. I am not a historian; I would love to hear from one on these points. Doctormatt (talk) 21:09, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

In the examples you quote, the people concerned are all dead so the question of "right to a private life" doesn't arise. Otherwise, the strictest interpretation of WP:BLP should apply. Maybe people need to recall WP:NOTATABLOID? Even when the subject has displayed poor judgement in releasing the information concerned, we should still show restraint. I can't remember which celebrity it was who admitted that her 15-year old daughter had "banned her from posting any more pictures without her permission". Relatives are not just appendages like a car or a house, they are individual people who have a right to be left alone unless they personally choose the tabloid glare. Wikipedia can hardly deprecate the Daily Mail if we behave like the Daily Mail. If in doubt, leave it out! --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 08:21, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, John. The edit ([[2]]) that started this conversation involved dead people as well. So, could we update the MOS to say that birth and death dates may be added for dead children, parents, etc., and add a reminder that, for living people, WP:BLP applies? I think this would be pretty clear guidance. Doctormatt (talk) 18:50, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus for a change in this discussion. Most editors are saying such details are rarely relevant and/or that the guideline should remain vague. DrKay (talk) 19:14, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree with others that these details are rarely relevant, and I don't think that the MOS should not be updated to suggest this type of information should be routinely included. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 19:35, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:General Roman Calendar § MOS:HON

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:General Roman Calendar § MOS:HON. Elizium23 (talk) 13:19, 10 June 2021 (UTC)Template:Z48

Query: does this guideline only apply to biographies, or does it apply to all of Wikipedia? Is the General Roman Calendar biography, or is it exempt from biographical guidelines? Elizium23 (talk) 17:48, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

RfC for CONTEXTBIO and its implications

If a person has expressed they are not a citizen of a country, and that is sourced, should they still be called a citizen in the lead even when they are only a permanent resident? Essentially, should permanent resident be removed from this criteria so as to not confuse anyone? It currently says, The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Trillfendi (talk) 00:00, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

We shouldn't imply that they are a citizen if they are not. It could be worded that they are a citizen of X but based in Y. For example, a P.R.permanent resident in the U.S. should not be called "American". Is there a specific example you had in mind?—Bagumba (talk) 01:22, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Bagumba, just wanted to note that Puerto Ricans are Americans with United States citizenship from birth. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:26, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Oops, I meant PR as in permanent resident. Corrected.—Bagumba (talk) 01:30, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

It seems to be a common refrain especially for British people who moved to America at a young age (or in the case of Gillian Anderson, vice versa) such as Jodie Turner-Smith, 21 Savage and the late MF Doom. I believe British-American is too nebulous for that. Or like Malin Åkerman who was born in Sweden and raised in Canada but was never a citizen there, for a long time her lead said Swedish-Canadian. I think based in [country] avoids any confusion. Trillfendi (talk) 03:03, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

MOS:OPENPARABIO says (my emphasis added): The first sentence should usually state .... It it can't be easily stated in the lead sentence, there is leeway to handle with more than a simple sentence in the lead paragraph.—Bagumba (talk) 07:50, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

• I think "permanent resident" is useful to have in the guideline for those individuals who are not citizens of a country but are most closely associated with that country because they now live there permanently, such as by using the "based in" wording suggested by Bagumba. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 01:43, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

@Bagumba and Wallyfromdilbert: They asked this with Jodie Turner-Smith in mind. She was born in the UK and immigrated to the US sometime during her childhood (can't find a reliable source giving her age, but she attended high school there), began her career as an actress and model in American projects, and still resides in the US. I think almost all sources refer to her as British or British-born, and she isn't an American citizen. There was some back-and-forth editing on calling her British or American which lead to a short discussion on her article's talk page. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 03:06, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

So the specific question is whether a person who is British-born and an American permanent resident should be referred to as "British-American" or just "British"? And should this depend on whether they have specifically stated they are "not American"? Dicklyon (talk) 03:23, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Jodie-Turner Smith looks like a situation where simply "British" would be appropriate in the lead sentence since that is how most sources appear to refer to her, and she also says she is "not American" in one of the sources in the article [3]. I think her residence in the United States would still be relevant for the lead paragraph though. However, "British-born" seems a little strange for someone who is still British, especially when it is cited to an article that simply calls her "a British actor" in its actual body copy. I generally favor using citizenship as the country/location before the person's occupations/notable roles in the lead sentence because that is clear guidance that helps avoid these situations, but I think that there are definitely individuals who should have their country of residence in the lead paragraph, even if not in the first sentence (and maybe a very small number who should have it in their first sentence, like MF Doom). I think there is a little confusion with MOS:OPENPARABIO discussing the "first sentence" and MOS:CONTEXTBIO discussing the "opening paragraph". I don't know if the guidance could be adjusted to make this clearer. In MOS:OPENPARABIO, it also has "Context (location, nationality, etc.)", and maybe we should remove "location" from there to make the "first sentence" guidance clearer. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 03:36, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Agree that if a person's home country is relevant to the lead, a Briton should generally be called plain "British" and not "British-born".—Bagumba (talk) 03:54, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

What makes Turner-Smith's home country relevant to the lead? The notes in the code of Mila Kunis and Nina Dobrev's articles say not to include their birth country. And while those two are both citizens of the country they later moved to, mos:contextbio says "citizen, national, or permanent resident". Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 04:07, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Abbyjjjj96, the articles on both Mila Kunis and Nina Dobrev do mention where they were born, and both even do so in the second sentence of the article. The MOS section you mention is about the "opening paragraph" and not just the lead sentence. As for Jodie Turner-Smith, she is a British citizen and not an American citizen, and it seems like the overwhelming amount of sources refer to her as a "British actor" or "British actress", while only a small amount refer to her as "American". She also considers herself British and not American. Mila Kunis and Nina Dobrev are not comparable situations to her. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 04:17, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I meant the first sentence re. Kunis and Dobrev. MOS:OPENPARABIO says the first sentence should usually state: "Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable." She became notable in American projects, and it's not like she immigrated to the US as an adult; she has been based there since she was a child. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 05:39, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Turner-Smith's lead sentence has "based in the United States", which establishes location. I don't see an issue with the guideline.—Bagumba (talk) 07:34, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

What makes Turner-Smith's home country relevant to the lead?: If that was a response to my comment, I have no opinion on that specific bio. My comment was "if a person's home country is relevant ...", which I assumed it was because the lead already had "is a British-born ..."—Bagumba (talk) 07:34, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

For Wikipedia consistency, I think mention of "American" in the lead sentence should be reserved for citizens (or occasionally for those with American heritage—MOS:ETHNICITY: "Ethnicity ... should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability). I get calling her an "American actress" in the context of her presumably only doing American movies, but it's at best ambiguous and at worst misleading based on Wikipedia lead convention. Alternatives like "based in the United States", "American movies", etc. are preferable.—Bagumba (talk) 03:49, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

We still also still have the problem which has gone on for years across Wikipedia on nationality when it comes to British citizens due to the fact British citizens articles are treated differently to every other nationality. It is meant to be nationality in the introduction and yet British which is the actual legal nationality, often doesnt get mentioned, with only English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish getting used. It would help if there was a clear policy that British citizens should always be stated as British citizens. This isnt something people can pick and choose on a whim. They are either British citizens or they are not. All British citizens, wherever they live now and what ever part of the UK they are from, should be described as British in the introduction or at the very least in the infobox. RWB2020 (talk) 11:09, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

I think local consensus on which term to use is the most appropriate in those situations, and I wouldn't agree with a strict rule for UK nationalities (or other situations where citizenship and nationality may differ, such as Puerto Rico). – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 17:31, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

The choices being commented in this RfC seem to imply that including people's citizenship/nationality should be a thing that is normally done on articles. I think we need to reconsider that assumption tbh. A lot of people are opposed to the entire concept that people should be classified by government. Especially if their notability has nothing to do with government/citizenship at all. So the clear answer to the specific article that this RfC arises from is to not include citizenship/nationality information for a subject that has stated that they are not of that nationality, as well as to reconsider the inclusion of such info in the lede for others. 06:31, 14 June 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️

I also think that the American concept (where "X-ian" indicates origin/ethnicity rather than nationality) should prevail over the foreign concept where "X-ian" indicates citizenship/nationality, although I don't think Wikipedia would support that convention. 06:33, 14 June 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️

I disgree that it is an American English concept. Yao Ming was not referred to as an American basketball player when he played in the United States. In the case of Wikipedia, the de facto convention is that it specifically refers to nationality in the lead sentence.—Bagumba (talk) 07:07, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Yao was never American in either the American sense or non-American sense of the term (i.e. not by nationality and not by origin). 14:23, 15 June 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️

Then I misunderstood your apparent suggestion to ignore citizenship/nationality, when the RFC was inspired by a British citizen who lives and works in the U.S.—Bagumba (talk) 14:53, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

To clarify, for a subject like J. Smith whose nationality is not relevant to their notability, it does not need to be stated in the lead (Nor does their residence). I would consider nationality relevant only for people such as public officials or if their notability arises from nationality-related issues. 17:51, 15 June 2021 (UTC) TOA The owner of all ☑️

MOS:OPENPARABIO says to "usually" state one's nationality in the first sentence. When it doesn't make sense, don't include it.—Bagumba (talk) 06:44, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

At this point, it would be jarring for me to find a biography that didn't mention nationality in the usual place, and I expect it would be sufficiently jarring for other editors that they would clamor to put it in. I would say that its near-universal presence establishes consensus for universal inclusion. Elizium23 (talk) 06:52, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Agree that it should be rare to exclude. I don't recall which pages, but the debate is usually a person who holds citizenship in multiple countries and summarizing in one sentence is problematic.—Bagumba (talk) 07:14, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

There are both British and Americans living and working in places all over the world (Hong Kong, Singapore, Sydney, Dubai...take your pick) and no-one would ever think to question that they aren’t still British or American, even if they’ve been there for years. But there does seem to be something mysterious about living and working as an expat in America that has editors suddenly falling over themselves to challenge a lead sentence reference to their nationality. MapReader (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:26, 15 June 2021‎ (UTC) I think as others have pointed out we are emphasising the legal/governmental element too much here. For example many, many UK bio articles start with "Welsh/Scottish/English" even though legally none of that exists only "British" does iirc. How do reliable sources describe the person in question, seems more of an article-by-article basis, etc. Regards  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 17:55, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Questions about MOS:BIRTHNAME

• Okay, thus I'm recently working on the late Russian Empire/early Soviet Union biographies and I wonder one thing. MOS:BIRTHNAME says "While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name, if known, should usually be given in the lead sentence (including middle names, if known, or middle initials). Many cultures have a tradition of not using the full name of a person in everyday reference, but the article should start with the complete version in most cases." shouldn't this also apply to the body? MOS:LEAD says "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies." Looks important to me why isn't this included in MOS:BIRTHNAME?
• Since I am working on the former Russian Empire-related articles the middle name is replaced with patronymics but does that count as part of their full names? If so does this also applies to ethnic groups like the Mongolians who use clan names? I got confused when I was working on those topics because almost all of the articles at the moment don't mention the patronymic and MOS:BIRTHNAME isn't helping me currently. I hope I can get some answers here. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 08:48, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Just to give an uneducated opinion from the sidelines, I suggest that wp:COMMONNAME also applies. Taking President Putin as a for-example, the article is called Vladimir Putin (as he is generally known), he is introduced in the opening sentence as Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and his patronymic is mentioned just that once in the lead, once more in the first sentence of #Early life, then nowhere else. It seems that this is the norm: his father is mentioned once out of respect then need not be mentioned again (unless disambiguation is needed). So if the Putin example is a good one, you only need to mention the patronymic once more in the body: the childhood section seems ideal. The Joseph Stalin article gives the name Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin just once (in the lead) but then that wasn't really his name at birth. V.I. Lenin is just as complicated. Caution: I write as someone who got hopelessly confused by the multiple names for the same few people in War and Peace and never finished it! So at best this opinion is to help your analysis rather than to give a definitive answer. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:04, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Your feedback would be welcome at the James Barry Rfc

There is currently an Rfc going on at Talk:James Barry (surgeon)#Request for comment: Pronouns attempting to determine what pronouns to use for James Barry (surgeon), and for which MOS:GENDERID plays an important role. Your feedback at the discussion would be welcome. Mathglot (talk) 00:04, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Borderline cases and dead names

I posted this Talk:Laurel Hubbard#Sourcing and pronouns and just wanted to check that my understanding is correct i.e. if it cannot be established that Hubbard is notable under her dead name, whether via GNG of sources prior to her transitioning or a subject specific guideline, the dead name should be excluded?

I also bring this up because it occurred to me while writing that it's probable we will mention some biographical details related to her career for which she is notable i.e. weightlifting such as records she achieved before transitioning and maybe will be using source from before she transitioned but possibly shouldn't be mentioning the name those achievements were under. Hopefully we can find more recent sources, but I'm not sure if this is guaranteed. This is potentially likely to be not uncommon with sports people, but I guess would arise in other cases. E.g. the long discussion above arises mostly from Elliot Page, but it seems we may also have actors who played minor roles prior to transitioning, not enough to make them notable but enough to mention in the article.

The long discussion above is a mess so I can't be bothered looking at it but are we developing guidance on how to handle these cases? AFAICT the above discussion is focused on cases where the subject was notable so we do mention the dead name somewhere in our article. But as indicated earlier, it strikes me with cases where the subject wasn't notable, we could have a situation where we are using sources prior to the subject transitioning which only mention the dead name but which won't be mentioned anywhere in the article. So there may be a risk of some confusion to readers when checking out the sources. (I'm aware that technically there is always going to be some risk since there's no guarantee readers are going to read the whole article carefully. And that part of the reason for the discussion above is how we handle such issues while respecting subjects.)

Also and this is probably less likely to arise with actors or sports people but it strikes me in cases with academics and others of that sort, transitioning may have little or no impact on their career. And especially in cases of WP:GNG rather than WP:PROF or something, it may be there's no clear date when you can say they became notable. Do we have guidance on how to handle these cases?

Nil Einne (talk) 08:05, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

External opinions needed on Augustus

Hi. This very Wikipedia's Manual of Style gives Augustus as an example of article whose first sentence should start with only the one name by which he is most famous: "Augustus (63 BC – 14 AD) was a Roman emperor ....". In the page Augustus, on the other hand, one user insists on adding "Caesar" as the first word of the article. Discussion opened by said user in the talk page has led another user to disagree with him and state that using simply "Augustus" is the best option. As he insists on adding "Caesar", I think third opinions would be very much appreciated on the issue. Thanks in advance. Dan Palraz (talk) 15:38, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Foreign langage

Hi, i wanted to ask since its not specified here, in what case should we use foreign langage for someone's name ? Indira333 (talk) 12:40, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

We use whatever a majority of English language reliable sources use when discussing the person. So, if they use an anglicized version of the name, so do we… but if they use a “foreign language” version, we do too.

Examples: John Cabot, not “Giovanni Caboto”…

but Johan Sebastian Bach, not “John Sebastian Bach”. Blueboar (talk) 12:53, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

For example 'Huda kattan', she was born in the Us but in her lead sentence her name is translated in arab, is it correct or wrong ? Indira333 (talk) 13:04, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

I will rewrite my question. In what cases should we translate someone's name in a foreign langage ? Huda Kattan is American and was born in the Us, but in the lead sentence of her bio, her name is translated in Arab, is it correct ? Should we always do like that ? Indira333 (talk) 13:24, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

NAME TRANSLATION in a foreign langage.

Hi, In what cases should we translate someone's name in a foreign langage ? Huda Kattan is American and was born in the Us, but in the lead sentence of her bio, her name is translated in Arab, is it correct ? Should we always do like that ? Indira333 (talk) 14:38, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah… you are asking about whether we should give a parenthetical translation in the lead sentence. It isn’t “wrong”… but it isn’t always necessary or appropriate. Translations like this are usually given when the subject is primarily known outside the English speaking world (in this case it would be if the subject is primarily known in the Arab speaking world). The idea is to help readers who have come across the name in a non-English script/language know that they have found the correct English language article.

So, the question is: how well known is this person (an American) in the Arabic speaking world? I don’t know the answer to that. Blueboar (talk) 15:15, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes that's what i was asking, thank you ! Indira333 (talk) 15:46, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Capitalization of Secretary-general/Secretary-General?

The MoS says "Hyphenation and compounds: When hyphenated and capitalized, e.g. Vice-president (as it is usually spelled in contexts other than US politics), the element after the hyphen is not capitalized." So "Secretary-general" when capitalization is called for, right? But "Secretary-General" outnumbers "Secretary-general" 44 to 1. I hesitate to start fixing 11,000 articles, expecting a lot of pushback. Why is the MoS so out of line with actual usage? Chris the speller ^yack 03:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

No idea. But in this instance it is clear that capitalising both elements is the norm, especially when prefixing a name. It would look very weird otherwise (e.g. Lieutenant-general Sir John Smith). However, when not prefixing a name things are not so clear-cut. In the past it was more common to only capitalise the first element than it is today (although even then, very rarely when prefixing a name). -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:50, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

RfC for use of peerage titles in lists and tables

Comment is invited as to whether the following established practice is compatible with guidelines and WP:MOS. Across a number of UK government (especially ministry lists such as First Johnson ministry) and parliament articles, peers are referred to in lists and tables by their full formal style and title, rather than by name. (See Talk:First Johnson ministry#MOS for listing current peers; and abortive RfC attempt at Talk:House of Lords#RfC for use of peerage titles in lists and tables.) DBD 10:27, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• It would help if you could give an example… because I am not sure that there is an “established practice” - I have looked at articles on several historical ministries, and see multiple (different) stylings. Blueboar (talk) 11:02, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  Examples: "The Rt Hon The Baroness Evans of Bowes Park PC" in First Johnson ministry (including embedded Template:Boris Johnson cabinet 1 vertical) and other recent ministry and shadow cabinet list articles (say, since 2001); "The Baroness Evans of Bowes Park" [4] DBD 13:29, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

• It's important in a list of cabinet secretaries and ministers to distinguish which are in the Lords and which are in the Commons. I would however change "The Baroness Evans of Bowes Park" to "Natalie Evans, Baroness Evans of Bowes Park" or "Natalie, Baroness Evans" or "Natalie, Lady Evans." Also, drop the "PC." Since everyone on the list is a PC, it makes no sense to include it for peers only. TFD (talk) 13:51, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
• No, it is not compatible. MOS:SURNAME only allows nobility to be referred to solely by title on subsequent use, and deprecates that approach entirely for modern persons. We have a detailed guideline, WP:NCBRITPEER, designed to ensure that the titles of articles of British nobility are the most recognizable common name. I can think of no reason why that common name would not be what we use to identify that person on first mention in other articles. Piping the link to remove the name is not at all helpful to the reader. We have no obligation to conform to the official style of the British government for a particular context. This also sometimes comes up with respect to the royals (e.g., referring to the Princess Royal or the Earl of Wessex in an article purely by their titles and not their names). Keeping in mind we are writing for a global audience, and deliberately want to avoid in-group shibboleths, using the common name that forms the article title is almost always the most appropriate choice.--Trystan (talk) 15:38, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  For one thing, ministers in the United Kingdom can come from both the House of Commons and the House of Lords (though nowadays from the lower house). Ministers drawn from the House of Lords may also have served in the Commons too: an example would be Zac Goldsmith. As we are indeed "writing for a global audience", it would not be clear to the reader that Goldsmith is a minister from the House of Lords: an important distinction. Sdrqaz (talk) 20:26, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  Even the prime minister can come from the House of Lords. Though, that hasn't happened for quite some time :) GoodDay (talk) 20:44, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  The last time was in 1963, when the 14th Earl of Home was appointed PM - he renounced his peerage four days later. You need to go right back to the 3rd Marquess of Salisbury to find the last PM who sat in the Lords throughout his term (1895–1902). Several PMs have been elevated to the the peerage, but since 1876 that has only happened after they left office for the last time - the last incumbent PM to be raised to the peerage was Benjamin Disraeli, who became the 1st Earl of Beaconsfield in 1876 and left office in 1880. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:08, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

  @Sdrqaz: Quite right re: Goldsmith and other peers whose biographies are at their names alone. I agree that when it is necessary to make clear that they are a peer, their title should be included after the link. DBD 12:39, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

  @Trystan: Thanks, I appreciate your focus on ease of access for a broad readership. In your last sentence, you touch on what I think is my main concern — that this practice has never been examined outside of a very small group of editors. This is the clear benefit of seeking wider comment. DBD 12:43, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

• Title shown or not, it helps to show the persons actual name. GoodDay (talk) 16:32, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
• It is compatible – Titles are names, and always have been names in British society. When the majority of reliable news sources refer to someone as 'Baroness Evans of Bowes Park' without further qualification, then there are no grounds for saying that that is not a common name for that person. MOS:SURNAME only deprecates titles for modern persons in situations where there could be confusion, not completely, and furthermore, the specific instances we are talking about here are tables, not prose, so it is likely that these guidelines do not apply at all. The tables follow customary British style for ministry lists, and unless someone can think of a good reason to deviate from it, as it is found in reliable sources, we should not do so. More importantly, the tables serve to chronicle the style due to a person in the position that they are serving in the British government, and in this context, this is useful information for the reader. Finally, I must express my utmost opposition to the use of Wikipedia-invented styles like 'Natalie, Baroness Evans', the likes of which should not be used anywhere. We must, must follow reliable sources, lest we become the source of the proliferation of styles that do not actually exist. RGloucester — ☎ 20:23, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
• Of course it's compatible, per above. Nothing whatsoever makes it incompatible with any guideline. Peers are invariably referred to in the media as Lord, Lady or Baroness So-and-So, not by their first names. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:00, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Note (this is included in the linked prior discussions): I had particularly in mind the MOS sections MOS:SURNAME and MOS:HON; as Trystan points out above, WP:NCBRITPEER is also relevant.

MOS:HON begins "Honorifics and styles of nobility should normally be capitalized, e.g., Her Majesty, His Holiness. They are not usually used in running text, though some may be appropriate in the lead sentence of a biographical article, as detailed below, or in a section about the person's titles and styles."

MOS:SURNAME para 4: "A member of the nobility may be referred to by title if that form of address would have been the customary way to refer to him or her; for example Robert Dudley, 1st Earl of Leicester, may become the Earl of Leicester, the Earl, or just Leicester (if the context is clear enough) in subsequent mentions. For modern-day nobility it is better to use name and title; at some time in the future the Prince of Wales will be a different person than Charles, Prince of Wales, and a great many articles risk becoming out of date. Be careful not to give someone a title too soon; for example, one should use Robert Dudley or Dudley when describing events before his elevation to the peerage in 1564."

In case these help further discussion. DBD 13:17, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

We are not discussing the use of honorifics, except for in the narrow case of the ministry tables, which as specified are a section 'about a person's titles and styles' as relevant to their participation in the ministry. No one is suggesting using honorifics in running text. Again, on the point of MOS:SURNAME, the relevant section reads 'For modern-day nobility it is better to use name and title; at some time in the future the Prince of Wales will be a different person than Charles, Prince of Wales, and a great many articles risk becoming out of date', and this obviously does not apply to life peers, for whom there is no such possibility of confusion. In any case, as I said above, I do not think that this section, which is about running text, applies to tables, and specifically, to tables that are intended to display the styles and titles as they are accorded to a person who holds a specific position within the British government. RGloucester — ☎ 15:22, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I contend that none of the contexts we're talking about are "about a person's titles and styles", but about their rôle(s). You are correct that the guidelines as they stand don't mention tables nor lists; but I have put out this request for comment so that other users might comment. You and I have rehearsed this enough and this is to broaden the discussion. DBD 16:28, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

What you don't seem to understand is that, in a British governmental context, 'role' can accord one a title or style, and vice-versa. Being made a privy councillor grants one the style of 'The Right Honourable' (and there are indeed occasions when cabinet members are not PCs, contrary to what was stated above), being given a peerage grants one the ability to sit in the government as a minister, &c. One might remember the recent creation of a peerage for Zac Goldsmith, which was noted in the media, given that he had just lost his seat in the Commons, and was made a peer specifically so he could continue to sit in government! Likewise, various titles and styles are awarded to people for their service in government, and these are also worthy of note in this context. This is the reason why British ministry lists, whether those found in Dods or on the British government website, always include titles and styles. This is not a matter of etiquette, courtesy or deference, as you have tried to claim, but rather a matter of informing the reader of a person's role and status within the ministry. I can understand why some contemporary persons have a disdain for noble titles and styles, and indeed, editors here from outwith Britain might view this matter as parochial. However, it is not Wikipedia's job to reform British society by diminishing the role these titles play in actual practice, and furthermore, to nullify them in a way that does not accord with common usage. We should reflect usage in reliable sources. RGloucester — ☎ 16:47, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

You are trying to discredit me as some kind of iconoclast. That is ad hominem. The question is compatibility of practice with guidelines; and this is a Request for Comment, whose purpose is to gather more editors' insight, not to hear from the same editor many times, thank you. DBD 08:30, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

I think the contentious issue here isn't about whether titles should be excluded, but about whether names should be included. I agree that titles are relevant to indicate the person's role and status within the ministry, but names are equally important to actually identify who the person is to the reader. For example, to explicitly indicate to the reader that Zac Goldsmith from the First Johnson ministry and The Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park from the Second Johnson ministry are in fact the same person. The ministry articles should convey such information clearly and explicitly to the reader, without requiring specialized knowledge or clicking every link in the article. Listing him as "The Right Honourable Zac Goldsmith, Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park PC" achieves both goals, and can hardly be said to convey a revolutionary disdain for nobility. If we want to explicitly convey how he is listed in the official government list but still convey vital information to the reader, "The Right Honourable Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park PC (Zac Goldsmith)" would also work.--Trystan (talk) 14:52, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

There is nothing inherently wrong with either of your two proposals, and I'm not opposed to using them. My objection is primarily to Wikipedia-invented styles like 'Zac, Lord Goldsmith'. However, I have to admit that I feel your proposal makes the names much longer without fair reason. I don't believe that titles, as commonly used in the media, are 'specialised knowledge'. See The Evening Standard, The Times, BBC. &c. Admittedly, Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park is somewhat exceptional, in that he had substantial media coverage before elevation to the peerage, and also, there is another well-known Lord Goldsmith, making use of the short form of his title ambiguous. In the context of a ministry list, however, and specifically a table, I don't really understand the need for adding an additional name appendage, given that Wikipedia is WP:NOTPAPER, and hyperlinks are available. I don't think it is a burden to expect the few people who will be confused to click the hyperlink. RGloucester — ☎ 15:08, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

• It is compatible but shorter forms are usually best, per TFD above. Johnbod (talk) 17:08, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - Makes ya wonder, don't it? Is he Prime Minister Lamb or Prime Minister Melbourne. GoodDay (talk) 14:56, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

He is 'Viscount Melbourne' in every book I've read on the subject (and definitely not 'Prime Minister Melbourne', which is an Americanised form). RGloucester — ☎ 15:10, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

My point is though, which is his surname? His family name, or his title? What's best to use, across the 'pedia. GoodDay (talk) 15:19, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

His common name is 'Viscount Melbourne'/'Lord Melbourne', and he should be referred to as such (he can also be referred to as just 'Melbourne' after he has been first introduced). There is no reason to be so attached to the modern (and 'Americanised') idea of an essentialised surname. As I said above, titles have always, always been used as names in British society. RGloucester — ☎ 15:22, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

RGlouchester has it correct: use “Lord X” / “Lady Y” / “Viscount Z”, as this is common usage. Blueboar (talk) 16:09, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

• No, it is not compatible. I would support Tristan above and suggest that commonname is generally the way to go, which aligns with the general principles that apply across WP and would put clarity and ease of reading first. In an article about the person in question, their full name including any titles and honorifics is spelled out once, in the lead, with commonname (or just surname) used thereafter, the principle being that the full name is readily accessible for anyone who needs it. On the same basis, tables and lists that include wikilinks to the personal bio page should be based on commonname format; anyone who wants to full gen just needs to click once. Lists and tables benefit from being in a clear, straightforward easy to read format, and clutter from spelling out each individual’s full title is a disbenefit. MapReader (talk) 05:29, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Name changes in which previous name was considered offensive

I was curious about this stipulation in MOS:CHANGEDNAME:

If a person, or more typically a group, has adopted a new name because they determined the old name to be offensive, generally use the new name for all time periods. Note the old name in the first sentence of the lead, when discussing the naming history, and when citing works published under the old name. Note the other name as "(formerly X)" or "(now Y)" if needed for clarity. Examples: Lady A, The Chicks.

This was added in this edit in February. As far as I can tell from searching the archives of this talk page, it doesn't seem this provision was ever discussed? It seems it may have been related to this RfC on MOS:DEADNAME. Beland who made the addition was also the closer of that RfC and mentioned the Lady A and Chicks examples in their closing statement. But as far as I can tell, this scenario was not mentioned in the RfC statement. Perhaps there was some extensive discussion of it as part of the RfC (there were a lot of comments), though I was not able to find evidence of this.

Does this actually have consensus? And if so, I'm curious what encyclopedic purpose was found to be served by having a different treatment for Puff Daddy or Cat Stevens vs. Dixie Chicks or Lady Antebellum. Colin M (talk) 21:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

The previous discussions about deadnaming were so complicated it's probably worth just considering this question on its own merits. For names that are considered offensive (at least by the person or group being named), the purpose of generally following the name change is to avoid distracting readers and fans by repeating the offensive name unnecessarily. For the purpose of presenting facts clearly, it still needs to be explained that the old name and the new name refer to the same entity. For name changes where the old name is not offensive, the only real consideration is clarity. Many editors contributing to the deadnaming RFCs did object to anachronisms. Certainly for corporations and countries and similar entities, it seems clearer to use the name in use at the time, since it's associated with a particular era and a particular governance structure. Arguably, that's somewhat true for recording artists as well, though for the purpose of clarity, it still needs to be noted that e.g. Cat Stevens is also known as Yusuf Islam. -- Beland (talk) 21:26, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks for noting this; I have removed it pending discussion. I do not agree with this addition. There was no real discussion of this in the RfC about deadnaming, so it lacks community support. Deadnaming as a concept applies only to individuals, and only to those who have changed gender; there is no such thing as a deadname for a band or other group of people, only a former name. I find it rather unlikely that anyone seriously finds words like "antebellum" or "dixie" to be so offensive that these words should be avoided entirely. And even if they did, WP:NOTCENSORED applies. We need to avoid WP:CREEP, and the fact is that contextually, using the name in use at the time may be the most sensible in many cases. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:39, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

One possible unintended consequence of this change relates to MOS:LDS. A few years ago, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued the use of common names like "Mormon Church", "Mormons", "LDS Church", effectively saying that it found those terms offensive. The first is already generally disallowed by the topic-specific MOS, but the second and third last have been deemed still acceptable. The argument could be made that the proposed addition to MOS:CHANGEDNAME would support a change of the MOS:LDS to follow the church's requested style guidelines, something that has been quite strongly opposed to this point. Note that MOS:LDS already does allow for the previous names of the church to be used ("Church of Christ", "Church of the Latter Day Saints", etc) when it's associated with a particular era. "LDS Church" is used extensively through WP, especially as a parenthetical disambiguation in article titles. --FyzixFighter (talk) 04:54, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Credentials

I seek not to change Wikipedia policy on credentials. However, I am concerned about the addition of the link "Academic or professional titles and degrees 'WP:CREDENTIALS' redirects here. For the use of credentials by Wikipedia editors, see Wikipedia:There is no credential policy." The link takes the reader, probably an editor, to a controversial essay created in 2008 by an editor whose Talk page consists of fatalistic language regarding the perceived hopelessness of Wikipedia, not to mention several grammatical and style errors, all of which make me question the wisdom of linking to the essay from the all-important Wikipedia Manual of Style. (Examples: "...editing Wikipedia is futile." "Wikipedia is a nightmare that is slowly eroding and collapsing in and on itself.") To include a link from the Manual of Style page implies acceptance of the essay and gives its author a cloak of authority. I am not sure most Wikipedia editors would agree to give this author that level of authority, as evidenced by the concerns of Wikipedia editors who, through the edit history and the essay's Talk page, have taken issue with it. It should also be noted that the editor has not contributed to Wikipedia since 2011. My concern is not only with the author, but with the essay. Although Wikipedia Manual of Style/Biography Academic or professional titles and degrees states a clear Wikipedia policy, the essay inaccurately states that there is no Wikipedia policy on academic or professional titles and degrees, saying "In the absence of an official policy, editors are free to make claims regarding their own credentials as they see fit, but there is no official requirement for any other editors to treat credentials in the same manner." Also, I am concerned that although it is an essay and not a guideline or policy, editors still may misconstrue the article to be a Wikipedia guideline or policy. That is an easy mistake to make for all editors, but especially for new or inexperienced editors. For the reasons stated, I am removing the link and recommending that the essay is deleted. If, as the essay states, it is not "one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community," then why are we linking to it from the Manual of Style article? The Manual of Style article is one of the most important articles on Wikipedia. Everything we do on Wikipedia is based on the Manual of Style. I am posting this as a Talk section to allow any editor to post his or her opinion on the removal of the link. Clearly, my opinion is that this essay has no place on the page of the Manual of Style. Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia and your consideration of my edit. God bless and happy editing! MarydaleEd (talk) 19:25, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Rhododentrites, from our discussion regarding deleting this essay, I understand that the author's point was that the credentials of Wikipedia editors are unverified. I am not sure why that was important enough to warrant an essay, because as editors, we are all equal. An editor's credentials are irrelevant since we cannot publish articles of original work, but every editor has the right to publish an essay. I agree with you that there is no reason to delete the essay and appreciate you clarifying the text for me. However, I still believe this essay should not be linked from the Wikipedia Manual of Style and I am displeased that you reverted my edit. I brought the subject to the Talk page and invited a discussion in the spirit of collaboration so a consensus could be reached. Perhaps I should have initiated the discussion before I deleted the link, and I hope I can be forgiven if I jumped the gun. Whether a consensus is reached to keep it or delete it, I am happy to acquiesce to the will of my colleagues. I remain steadfast in my belief that even though the author is correct, the essay as it stands should not be linked from the heart of Wikipedia's policy page. However, I am open to compromise. If we think the point is important enough to be included in the Manual of Style, is there a better way to incorporate language into the policy and guidelines instead of linking to an essay? I would be happy to submit language to add, but would welcome your recommendation for text to incorporate into the Manual of Style alerting readers that editors' credentials are not verified. Again, thank you for contributing to this conversation. I hope we hear from others. God bless and happy editing. MarydaleEd (talk) 22:41, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Yo

So like, we really gotta do something to establish a site-wide handling of how deadnaming is handled with deceased people, because it's the wild god damned west on Wikipedia. The lack of any specific guidelines on how to handle deadnaming even lead to a huge to-do about Sophia, where people were adding their deadname before the body was even cold, under the logic that non-notability of a deadname is only a factor in living people. Not only is such an action obviously ghoulish, and not only does such an action drive away certain editors on a website noted for demographic issues, but it still can cause distress to the people who were close to this person in life, as well as readers who are like Sophia, who are made to feel unwelcome on Wikipedia. Something has to be done to address this policy vacuum. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 15:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)