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I just removed

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this category "Category:Neoclassical sculptures" because well, it's not neoclassical. But if you think it is. let's talk. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 04:39, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 11 July 2019

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln Memorial). There is a clear consensus that the current title is subpar, and more support for Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln Memorial) as a clearly understandable option than for any other option. bd2412 T 14:33, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Abraham Lincoln (1920 statue) → Abraham Lincoln (French, 1920) – My understanding is we disambiguate by artist last name or location when possible. In this case, we should use "French" and the year to disambiguate from Abraham Lincoln (1912 statue), which was designed by the same artist. "Abraham Lincoln (1920 statue)" does not disambiguate by artist or location, or avoid potential confusion with other statues of Lincoln completed in 1920. I suppose Abraham Lincoln (French, Lincoln Memorial) is also an option, but at that point I wonder if Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln Memorial) is better. --Another Believer (Talk) 00:52, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguating art by material is also common. This one is marble. Others are bronze. The material is more intrinsic to the work than the location, and is usually a leading defining descriptor, like location possibly superior to year, and better than creator especially when the creator involved a company team. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:46, 12 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Category

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@Ham II: Curious, why did you remove Category:Monuments and memorials to Abraham Lincoln in the United States? Were you planning to add a monument/memorial category to the parent Category:Statues of Abraham Lincoln? ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:11, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My thinking was that the parent article Lincoln Memorial is the one that belongs in that category, not the statue in the memorial. I didn't think of including the "Statues of..." category in the "Monuments and memorials to Abraham Lincoln" category, so thanks for the suggestion. I think all the "Statues of [Person]" categories should be in the relevant "Cultural depictions of [Person]" and "Monuments and memroials to [Person]" categories, where those exist. Ham II (talk) 16:03, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ham II, I would think the statue itself is also a monument/memorial. Are you opposed to adding the category back since it's US-specific? ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:17, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel too strongly about it; the "parent"/"child" situation isn't quite the same with articles as with categories. I've now put it back in Category:Monuments and memorials to Abraham Lincoln in the United States. Ham II (talk) 17:27, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ham II, Thank you! ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Title

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See also: Statue of Abraham Lincoln

WP:VAMOS has been updated and now says:

"For portrait sculptures of individuals in public places the forms "Statue of Fred Foo" "Equestrian statue of Fred Foo" or "Bust of Fred Foo" is recommended, unless a form such as "Fred Foo Memorial" or "Monument to Fred Foo" is the WP:COMMONNAME. If further disambiguation is needed, because there is more than one sculpture of the same person with an article, then disambiguation by location rather than the sculptor is usually better."

Should this page be moved to Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln Memorial)? Perhaps stating the obvious here, but we cannot go with Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Washington, D.C.) because there are multiple notable statues of Lincoln in D.C. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:10, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Randy Kryn, PC78, Ham II, Born2cycle, SmokeyJoe, Carptrash, Necrothesp, IJBall, and SelfieCity: Pinging you all as contributors to the above move discussion. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:12, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It should, as I said above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:41, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The title of this iconic statue's article is fine as it is right now. Simple, accurate, understandable. There is no reason to add two more words. If this goes forward, and I've yet to understand why these titles of artwork pages are gaining consensus, then let's at least not change it on the artist template (although on the DC landmarks template it would still be 'statue' as a subsection of 'Lincoln Memorial'). And if a change must be made, why not simply 'Abraham Lincoln statue (Lincoln Memorial)' which keeps the essence of the long-standing title. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:20, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I've done a quick review of the move discussion (up the page) and I agree that we should stick with the current title. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:33, 25 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A recent RM, such as above, seems like it would have priority over a talk page section. The closer uses the language "a clearly understandable option than for any other option", which included this proposed option. Changing the guideline language (and are we sure there was consensus to change that?) should be taken with a grain of salt and applied with common sense. There are many public statues with iconic names which could fall under this way of applying titles, and how did "public statues" become a thing separate from "statues" exhibited a few feet away from public places, such as inside a museum, sculpture garden, or cultural center? Randy Kryn (talk) 11:29, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
They're still public statues as they're in public places. The difference is whether something was intended to be a commemorative portrait (like this one) or simply a work of decorative art (such as Michelangelo's David, since we have no clue what David, if he existed, actually looked like, and the statue is known universally simply as Michelangelo's David). This has already been fully discussed elsewhere. And to address your "iconic names" point, if there is already a common name (e.g. Nelson's Column) then that is what we use. There is nothing dogmatic here. Purely common sense. "Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln Memorial)" suggests that Lincoln himself is within the Lincoln Memorial! It's a frankly bizarre title, in my honest opinion. This is a statue of him, and in the real world the common terminology for such a commemorative statue without another "iconic" name is "Statue of Foo". -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:54, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So you're saying that all statues in museums fall under the 'Statue of...' wording? All the more reason to think it over again and overturn this recent renaming push. I enjoy the viewpoint that readers would think that "Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln Memorial)" means that this article is about Abe Lincoln himself wandering around inside the Memorial. In the RM I mentioned that stranger things have happened. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:48, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying there's a distinction between commemorative portrait statues and statues merely intended to be works of art. As I would have thought was blatantly obvious. That's why VAMOS says "portrait sculptures of individuals in public places". It's quite specific. And that's what this is. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment above started out "They're still public statues as they're in public places" which I thought was referring to my concern that this new language applies to statues in museums. If I misread that, my apology. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:16, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It does apply to statues in museums (or anywhere else) if these were originally made as commemorative portrait statues. If they were made purely as artworks then we would take them on a case-by-case basis. For instance, I wouldn't suggest moving David (Michelangelo) or The Thinker, as these are the common names. What the new update to VAMOS is doing is only applying WP:COMMONNAME, which is usually "Statue of Foo" for these works unless there is a more commonly-used name. It's not revolutionary. It's just trying to eliminate the rather strange exception to COMMONNAME that some editors made for these statues. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:29, 26 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 5 March 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 03:34, 13 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln Memorial) → Statue of Abraham Lincoln (Lincoln Memorial) – WP:VAMOS has been updated and now says: "For portrait sculptures of individuals in public places the forms "Statue of Fred Foo" "Equestrian statue of Fred Foo" or "Bust of Fred Foo" is recommended, unless a form such as "Fred Foo Memorial" or "Monument to Fred Foo" is the WP:COMMONNAME. If further disambiguation is needed, because there is more than one sculpture of the same person with an article, then disambiguation by location rather than the sculptor is usually better." Since there are other statues of Lincoln in Washington, D.C., we must use a more specific location. This move would make the page more consistent with entries in Category:Statues of Abraham Lincoln. --Another Believer (Talk) 15:32, 5 March 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 18:00, 25 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose, the common name of this statue is Abraham Lincoln. It is the most famous statue of Lincoln, known far and wide (and from afar and awide). This one should fall in the same category as David, Moses, etc. as iconic statues which need no further extension of their name. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:49, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. The current title implies that a person named Abraham Lincoln is in the Lincoln Memorial or in fact is the Lincoln Memorial, which is of course nonsense! -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:53, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Randy Kryn is correct in that "Abraham Lincoln" is the common name of this statue, so quoting – ...unless a form such as "Fred Foo Memorial" or "Monument to Fred Foo" is the WP:COMMONNAME – applies to this statue. Also seems to be its official name, as well. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 21:22, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The title is precise as it is. It seems fleetingly unlikely that anyone will be confused that this title refers to the depiction housed in the identified landmark. BD2412 T 19:31, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support There is a move afoot to name all statue article the same, that is to say Statue of.......... I think it is a good idea. We all might know who Abrahaam Lincoln is but a 12 year old in India or China or Botswana probably does not. Call a spade a spade, call a statue a statue. Carptrash (talk) 20:49, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's for situations like this that the dedicated VAMOS guideline for public portrait sculptures was created; there wouldn't be the same mixed usage in the sources for The Thinker or Michelangelo's David. Applying the article naming convention to French's statue and not to those of Michelangelo or Rodin is in no way a negative commentary on the importance or artistic merit of French's work. Ham II (talk) 08:56, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per NC guidelines on statues. "Abraham Lincoln", even if it's the real official and common name of the statue of Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial, is a needlessly ambiguous title for an article and interferes with search autocomplete. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:07, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - looking at the current title, I would have absolutely no idea what it is referring to, and I have seen the statue with my own two eyes. Red Slash 23:26, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lincoln's hands

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User:EEng has reinserted the following text, which discusses the possibility that the sculptor intended for Lincoln's hands to form the letters "A" and "L" in sign language:

Legend
A legend is that Lincoln is shown using sign language to represent his initials, with his left hand shaped to form an "A" and his right hand to form an "L". The National Park Service denies the story, calling it an urban legend.[1] However, historian Gerald Prokopowicz writes that, while it is not clear that sculptor Daniel Chester French intended for Lincoln's hands to be formed into sign language versions of his initials, it is possible that French did intend it, because he was familiar with American Sign Language, and he would have had a reason to do so, i.e., to pay tribute to Lincoln for having signed the federal legislation giving Gallaudet University, a university for the deaf, the authority to grant college degrees.[2][3] The National Geographic Society's publication, On This Spot: Pinpointing the Past in Washington, D.C., states that French had a son who was deaf, and the sculptor was familiar with sign language.[4][5] Historian James A. Percoco has observed that, although there are no extant documents showing that French carved Lincoln's hands to represent the letters "A" and "L" in American Sign Language, "I think you can conclude that it's reasonable to have that kind of summation about the hands."[6]

References

  1. ^ "Lincoln Memorial National Memorial – Frequently Asked Questions". National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior. 2008. Archived from the original on 30 May 2009. Retrieved 2009-05-29.
  2. ^ Prokopowicz, Gerald J. Did Lincoln Own Slaves? And Other Frequently Asked Questions About Abraham Lincoln. ISBN 978-0-375-42541-7.
  3. ^ "Resources on Sign Language and Deaf Culture". www.handspeak.com.
  4. ^ Evelyn, Douglas E.; Dickson, Paul A. (1999). On this Spot: Pinpointing the Past in Washington, D.C. National Geographic Society. ISBN 0-7922-7499-7.
  5. ^ Harrington, Tom (May 2002). "FAQ: Lincoln Memorial Statue". Washington, D.C.: Gallaudet University. Archived from the original on 2009-01-04. Retrieved 2009-05-29.
  6. ^ Percoco, James A., speech given on April 17, 2008 in the Jefferson Room of the National Archives and Records Administration as part of the National Archive's "Noontime Programs" lecture series. archives.gov Broadcast on the C-Span cable television network on April 4 and April 5, 2009. [1]

None of the sources cited can confirm there is any truth to this; that the sculptor intentionally designed the hands for this purpose. Moreover, the Park Service writes:

  • Question: "Is Lincoln making the American Sign Language (ASL) signs for his initials?"
  • Answer: "Not really, but that doesn't stop people from wondering."

To support the speculation about Lincoln's hands, two non-notable authors are cited, who make an effort to explain why it may be possible that this was the sculptor's intent. While certainly not a fringe theory, it is unencyclopedic speculation, and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. At the least, the section should be trimmed to one sentence. The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:07, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The section seems to be adequately referenced so should be kept. That Park Service Q and A which answers "Not really" is noncommittal, coming in just a little above "maybe", and the Park Service source does not use the words "urban legend" so that should be trimmed. Source's show that French's son was deaf and French knew sign language, so the speculation, as pointed out in the sources, is not without basis. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:51, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • First of all, my apologies because I was on mobile, and thought the entire section was being removed. The fact that the Park Service addresses the question, even if to (half-heartedly) dismiss it, makes it almost certain that discussion of it belongs in the article. Then the question is: what discussion belongs, exactly, what sources to use, etc. Give me a bit to review the sources myself. EEng
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