Talk:Allium tuberosum

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Requested Move debate[edit]

A revert war over chinese chives vs garlic chives? This seems childish, though I see no reason for the move having been made in the first place. Chinese chives is not "more accurate", simply one of the alternatives, and not the most common one. A googlebattle gives "chinese chives" 36,900 hits, versus 102,000 for "garlic chives" (yes, the quote marks were in the search, or I would be including garlic and chives). Further, it is not just part of chinese cuisine. When I first encountered it, it was as "nira" and used in Japanese cooking. Later a chinese friend of mine (from China) referred to it as garlic chives, and told a great story about how it was worse than garlic for stinking the breath. Rather than continue this revert war, I would encourage editors to chime in on their preference so we can get a consensus (or just a majority). I am in favor of moving it back to garlic chives. -- WormRunner 03:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Support[edit]

  • Support I know these as garlic chives too, and have never heard them called chinese chives. I therefore support the move to garlic chives because it is the more common name. skorpion 03:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support I've not heard of either, but your rationalisation seems sound. Dead 06:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Oppose[edit]

Neutral[edit]

I would like to see proper evidence that this is more commonly know as garlic chives. Google is NOT good evidence as has been discussed many times previously due to the fact it's highly biased to the US (and the Western world to a less extent) for one. (What this is referred to in English in countries such as India etc is just as important). Nil Einne 11:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

A google search with "site:.uk" added still gives a clear lead to garlic chives, as does "site:.ca", "site:.au" and "site:.nz". When this is changed to "site:.in" for india, there are fewer than 10 citations for each and no clear winner. Are there other english-speaking countries we should check? A US bias does exist for google as a whole, but refined searches can be very informative. The article was at garlic chives since march of 2004 to june of 2006 and I was questioning whether the move to chinese chives was reasonable, since no justification was given other than that it was "more accurate" and this was unreferenced. -- WormRunner 18:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Here in lies one of the problems do. While I it appears garlic chives is probably the more common term we don't have any real evidence what name is more common in English in India or for that matter Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore etc. All the google site:in search shows is that Indians are still not using the internet much and even when they do they often don't have their own domains. Even the NZ result IMHO is small enough that it could easily be biased by the fact several seed & plant companies in particular appear to call it by the name which may not reflect what the herb itself may be called. A further compounding factor is the fact that people of East Asian and South East Asian descent are probably significantly more likely to use and talk about these, in English in some cases. Yet the usage on the internet is more likely to reflect what they are more commonly called by the general populance even though the vast majority of people probably have no idea what Chinese chives or garlic chives are and would refer to them very sparringly. So I would argue it's not clear cut what the more common name is and Google really tells us virtually nothing (as is nearly always the case). Sadly 'common usage' IMHO is a very difficult to establish. However since this article started off as garlic chives, that is where it should stay in the absence of clear consensus it should move Nil Einne (talk) 11:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment[edit]

Page moved[edit]

There being no opposition after 3 days, I moved the page back to garlic chives -- WormRunner 20:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Medicinal Uses[edit]

I've heard that this plant has traditional medicinal uses. Does anyone know anything about this? 24.83.178.11 01:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)KnowledgeSeeker

Flowers vs. no flowers[edit]

Asian groceries typically carry jiucaihua (韭菜花),photo which are chives with the small white flowers at the tips, which have a diamond-shaped stem, as well as the flatter kind with no flowers at the top, and stems/leaves that look more like grass.photo They're not the same. But the kind without the flowers (which is often labeled "garlic chives") isn't mentioned here. Are they the same species or are they different? Badagnani 03:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Condiment[edit]

This statement needs to be evaluated in order to determine the Chinese name for this condiment: "A unique condiment is prepared from the flowers of garlic chive (jiu cai hua [韭菜花]): The unopened flowers are made into a salty, dark green puree with a powerful garlicy flavour." Badagnani 04:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Characters[edit]

Are we sure that the proper characters are 韭菜? I swear I was just at 99 Ranch Market and I saw the display card read 韮菜. In fact, I've got packages of frozen jiaozi in the freezer now that say 韮菜 on them. howcheng {chat} 19:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Google hits for 韮菜 seem to be all Japanese. Xingguan (talk) 23:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Three Types of Garlic Chives[edit]

There are three kinds of Garlic Chives and this needs to be specified in the article:
1. Standard garlic chives (Gau Choy) – Garlic chives look similar to chives, but their leaves are broad and flat instead of hollow. Their garlicky flavor enhances cooked dishes, particularly ones where the food is slowly simmered in a sauce, such as red-cooked stews or soups, or in a stuffing. Use them also to add flavor to stir-fries. They go particularly well with eggs and seafood – you’ll often find them paired with scrambled eggs or prawns.
2. Flowering Chives (Gau Choy Fa) – Flowering chives have hollow, light green stems and yellow buds on the end. But don’t let their delicate appearance fool you: flowering chives have a stronger garlicky flavor than Gau Choy. A popular delicacy in Chinese cuisine, they are used in salads and stir-fried alone. The yellow buds make an attractive garnish and, unlike regular chives, they are edible. Their popularity means that flowering chives are often easier to find than garlic chives, both in regular supermarkets and Asian groceries. Feel free to use them in place of garlic chives.
3. Yellow Chives (Gau Wong) – Yellow chives are garlic chives that have been grown under cover, without any exposure to direct sunlight. This prevents the leaves from turning green, as the plant’s chlorophyll-absorbing molecules never kick into action. Yellow chives have thick flat leaves, a yellow color, and a mild, “oniony” flavor. Like flowering chives, they are considered to be a delicacy, and often served alone or paired with another vegetable in a stir-fry. Use them in soups, with noodles, or whenever you want to add chives with a milder flavor than either garlic or flowering chives.

probable source[edit]

http://chinesefood.about.com/od/vegetablesrecipes/a/garlicchives_2.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.57.17 (talk) 17:24, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested Move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Allium tuberosum Mike Cline (talk) 14:45, 18 November 2012 (UTC)



Garlic chivesAllium tuberosum – Page was previously moved from Chinese chives to Garlic chives. Google results for these names are equal (500k vs. 498k). Asian names (e.g. kow choi, nira) are also used in English language sources. Per WP:FLORA, scientific names are generally preferred for plants, and there is no single most common name in English language sources.Plantdrew (talk) 05:03, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

  • Comment your choice is significantly rarer, therefore failing WP:COMMONNAME
    • 169k "Allium tuberosum" OR "A. tuberosum"
    • 500k134k "Chinese chives"
    • 498k "Garlic chives"
    • 551k kow-choi
    clearly "kow choi" is more used, but close to "garlic chives" and "Chinese chives", so one of these three are candidates under WP:UCN, while A. tuberosum is not, since it is not even close to as common as the other three names. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 05:47, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Please read WP:FLORA, which can override WP:UCN. You didn't use quotes for kow choi, and most of those results are not about the plant. "Kow choi" has 1410 results. An alternate transliteration of this Chinese name, "gau choy" has 3910 results. Many of the pages that use a common name present more than one of the common names(e.g. "The Chinese/Garlic chives, a.k.a. kow choi"). The Japanese name, "nira" gives many nonrelated results, but restricting the context by adding "Allium" to the search still yields 219k results. I'm sure there are further Chinese transliterations I could search for as well as names in other Asian languages.Plantdrew (talk) 06:16, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Please read WP:POLICY; WP:FLORA is a guideline, while WP:UCN is a policy, a guideline cannot override a policy. UCN trumps FLORA. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 08:02, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
I'm not finding the passage in WP:POLICY that suggests policies override guidelines. WP:FLORA and WP:UCN both stress using reliable sources to determine article titles. Google Scholar emphasizes reliable sources more than a general Google search, and Allium tuberosum is more widely represented in Google Scholar results than "Chinese chives" or "Garlic chives". There are no Google Scholar results that use "kow chai" in reference to the plant, and only a handful that use the alternate transliteration "gau choy". What article title do you favor? "Chinese chives" is narrowly the most common general Google result.Plantdrew (talk) 08:34, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Policies explain and describe standards that all users should normally follow, while guidelines are meant to outline best practices for following those standards in specific contexts -- If the guideline does not follow the policy, the guideline is in error. And this is a food product, so cookbooks and products sold by food manufacturers should be included in your search for references -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 09:37, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
I can't reproduce the search numbers that 65.92.181.190 gives; I get distinctly lower figures for "Chinese chives" than "garlic chives" (both quoted). "Allium tuberosum" OR "A. tuberosum" gives me more results than "Chinese chives". Peter coxhead (talk) 15:51, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Hmm... that's weird, it showed that way yesterday, but today "Chinese chives" shows 134k. -- 65.92.181.190 (talk) 06:19, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. Using the scientific name avoids all the issues with multiple common names, and all the common names that are not themselves ambiguous can redirect to the page. One of the reasons for the flora naming conventions was to deal with situations like this.--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:31, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. Time and time again the WP:PLANTS policy of preferring scientific names as article titles has proved the best choice, avoiding all the problems of multiple common names with distinct regional preferences, as here. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:45, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. The common name is ambiguous, Siberian garlic chives=Allium nutans". Sminthopsis84 (talk) 01:33, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Kyrgyz name[edit]

Jusay in Kyrgyzstan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.181.135.93 (talk) 14:46, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Page organisation[edit]

@Peter coxhead:. Regarding recent moves - the page is a mess, and I don't think a lot of what is here needs to be here - I'm trying to impose some order! --Michael Goodyear (talk) 08:24, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree! It looks better to me now, though. If we must have long lists of non-English names not used in English – personally I'd prefer to delete them – then at the end like the "Culture" section seems best to me. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:49, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
I think we had a discussion on this as relates to infoboxes before on the Project talk page. I see only a limited use, maybe as used in counrtry of origin, or if it has an important economic or other usage in a particular culture. --Michael Goodyear (talk) 15:23, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, we did, and I agree with this view. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:23, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
@Peter coxhead: I have now cleaned up this page --Michael Goodyear (talk) 12:09, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Looks better to me! Peter coxhead (talk) 12:34, 19 October 2015 (UTC)