Talk:Arab Christians

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Israel[edit]

"this is one of the biggest Arab Christian communities in the world.", this statement is not sourced. While this statement is controversial "It is also one of the few Christian communities in the Middle East, which experiences a net population growth" as seen here [1] [2]. --Makeandtoss (talk) 09:32, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand how BBC and Haaretz are disproving that Israeli Arab Christian community is growing?GreyShark (dibra) 08:31, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
BBC "Issues: Discrimination against Arab minority; declining numbers". --Makeandtoss (talk) 09:11, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Have you only read the headline? Your conclusion is WP:SYNTH. Try reading the actual section of that article on Israel. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:21, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Huh?? My conclusion? I am quoting. I don't find anything in text contradicting the headline. --Makeandtoss (talk) 14:42, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm reading BBC and it says nothing concerning your claim. On the contrary. H'aretz is talking about decline of Palestinian Christian community, which is a well known fact, but unrelated.GreyShark (dibra) 17:03, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
What the hell? I said I am quoting, what do you mean my "claim"??? Do you need a larger red box?. Makeandtoss (talk) 23:11, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
How does the 2011 BBC article negate this 2013 article? You're busy pointing to a bullet point précis of historical concerns of the Christian population, but ignoring "The remaining Christians include increasing numbers of immigrants from around the world." --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:57, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Ah, I see your point, Makeandtoss. Apologies, but I was distracted by the shenanigans below regarding Lebanese Christians. In the context of the Israel section, the growth is the by-product of other groups of immigration from around the world, not specifically applied to the Israeli Arab Christian community as is stated in the section. The problem is that, while they've named a few groups of migrants suggesting that they are non-Arabic by where they're emigrating from, it isn't actually clear as to whether or not these migrants are of Arabic descent. The article's wording is vague enough not to be able to ascertain their ethnicity one way or the other. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:28, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
The count of Israeli Arab Christians in constantly growing - i've checked official numbers several times in this regard, regardless of non-Arab Christians immigrants (married to either Jews or Arabs). The above sources do not state otherwise.GreyShark (dibra) 05:47, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
I added another source to the article, so we can see the numbers and growth:
2009 - 122,000 Arab Christians out of 151,700 (i.e. 80.4%)
2012 - (126,400) Arab Christians out of 158,000, meaning 80% [3]
2014/2015 - (131,300) Arab Christians out of 166,000, meaning 79.1% [4]
The trend is quiet clear from those numbers, so "growing Arab Christian population" is certainly a reasonable statement.GreyShark (dibra) 06:34, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Thats kind of original research. Plus I am stressing on the "one of the few Middle Eastern countries" part. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:12, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Original research has nothing to do with that, since those numbers are sourced. In addition, we are discussing the cited citation - whether it is true or false. You are claiming that "Israel is one of the few Middle Eastern countries with growing Christian population" is a minority view / mistake, while i'm showing you that by sourced numbers it seems the statement is very much correct - concerning both general Christian population and specifically Arab Christians. Unless you can bring an opposite opinion or show different numbers from reliable sources, you have no case to remove it.GreyShark (dibra) 13:31, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
By sourced numbers, you are only showing me that its growing, not that it is the one of the few in the region growing. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:37, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
The cited source says "Israel has one of the few Christian communities left in the Middle East that is still growing." Algemeiner 2013. This is the source, not numbers in this thread, which were brought by me to check the statement.GreyShark (dibra) 20:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Its an extraordinary claim. The Jerusalem Post is not quite reliable as it is right-wing oriented, but it is quoting the statistics department, so I don't know. What I do know is that there are contradicting sources on a rather sensitive issue. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:05, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Jerusalem Post is a reliable source - it has an editorial board and clearly passes WP:RS guidelines. Reliable sources can be POV, as long as they are verifiable, and we can utilize them, while other opinions from other WP:RS sources are brought to balance. You should bring proper sources to balance this claim if you can find one. Dismissing WP:RS sources without proper reasoning is simply WP:IDONTLIKEIT.GreyShark (dibra) 21:26, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
As I said, its an extraordinary claim and the Jerusalem post alone is not an extraordinary sourcing, specifically with contradicting sources. The BBC source and this source saying that this community (Arab Christians) is declining in Israel, let alone it being the only community growing in the region. Numbers from 2009, 2012, 2014 don't mean anything, Israel has been existing for 68 years. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:18, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
You are simply misleading - there is nothing in BBC to say so. The thesis is very confusing - speaking of Palestinian Christians and Israeli Christians in one sentence, while we all know Palestinian Christian society is collapsing. Your claim is therefore fringe and not supported by sources.GreyShark (dibra) 06:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Sorry but wtf? ?? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:17, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
OK, i see what you mean. You can add that BBC said "declining numbers" in 2011, while Jerusalem Post said it is "growing" as of 2014 - both are reliable sources, even though contradicting. Your other source (thesis) is very confusing - mixing Israeli and Palestinian figures and often calling Israeli Christians as Palestinians and Palestinian Christians as living in Israel.GreyShark (dibra) 10:01, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Let me reemphasize that I am emphasizing on "one of the few". Makeandtoss (talk) 10:07, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Wdym?GreyShark (dibra) 10:19, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Arab Israeli Christians growing in number is met with contradicting sources, "one of the few Christian communities in the Middle East growing" is a whole different story. We are not sure if the community is even growing, and we say its the one of the few communities growing?! Its an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary sourcing. WP:EXTRAORDINARY Makeandtoss (talk) 10:41, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Frankly, my friend, "one of the few" is quite an ambiguous language, so we can simply delete this, even though it doesn't have anything with WP:extraordinary. Regarding growth or reduction - i'm convinced by you that BBC indeed said that numbers are reducing in 2011, so we can input the claim as suggested above, even though it doesn't make much sense. I'm thinking perhaps to add a an Israeli CBS-based table on Arab Christian numbers in Israel, so readers would be able to draw conclusions by themselves.GreyShark (dibra) 15:10, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Sounds too detailed for this article. Numbers increased in these bla bla bla years, numbers decreased in these bla bla bla years, isn't really a net growth. You can't draw conclusions from numbers, we need a source explicitly saying its growing. But seriously, I am really not into if its growing, I am more into "one of the few" part as it is completely baseless. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:38, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────this might help resolve the issue:

Outside of the Gulf States with over a million mainly Asian Christians laborers, Israel is the only place in the Middle East where the Christians are growing in number. They are excelling in education, doing well in business and feeling relatively safe from their radical tormentors.

There's also some more information about the treatment of Arab Christians in Israel in that piece that might be relevant to this article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:06, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

That quote talks about Christians generally not Arab Christians, not helpful. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:25, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Agree with Makeandtoss - not specific about Arab Christians and does not contain much information.GreyShark (dibra) 07:03, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
The issue remains.. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:05, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

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"Arabized Christians"[edit]

to this reader, the phrase "Arabized Christians" is so unclear that it would require a definition if not an article in itself explaining how someone who gets "Arabized". The phrase (is it original research or synthesis?) should be strong enough to distinguish between "adopting Arabic as their language" and "losing their original ethnic identity and becoming Arabs". --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 15:22, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

See Arabization. Speaking Arabic is not "Arabization" in the full meaning of this word. I do speak Arabic, but in no way consider myself Arabized or being part of the Arab nation / identity.GreyShark (dibra) 08:52, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

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