Talk:David Mann (artist)

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November 2005[edit]

David Mann was an artist like no Other.He inspired a lot of people,especially in the biker community but he had fans on all over the world.He was an artist that came to know that the biker life style was appropriate for him and other people,because it was all about the freedom of riding your chopper,bobber,Harley or any other bike.It's just the freedom of riding a bike .David Mann was a truly great man to the people Who know him,but he was even bigger to the fans.He inspired a whole generation and future ones.Rest in peace David and God bless your soul,wife,friends and anyone who has a motorcycle.Peace.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.125.16.35 (talkcontribs) 07:03, 20 November 2005

Confusion[edit]

"Roth....(did so and so)". Next sentence "He...(did whatever)". Was He Roth or Mann?--SilasW 14:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

David Mann Bibliography[edit]

Please use these references to improve the article.

--Dbratland (talk) 18:15, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

David Mann Chopperfest and other source articles not yet used[edit]

Chopperfest[edit]

Other[edit]

Artist or Painter?[edit]

I could not find any sources for Mann's recognition within the world of visual arts. As such, he has been a graphic craftsman but not an artist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.143.35.31 (talk) 14:53, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Multiple sources already cited state he was an artist. What are sources in the "world of visual arts"? And who put them in charge? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
In which art galleries has Mann's work been displayed so far? Which museum showcases his work? So far, I only could find him as commercial illustrator only. Anyone got links? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.131.74.226 (talk) 17:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Look in the Google news archive for "David Mann" motorcycle museum and "David Mann" motorcycle gallery. Also use your local library website to search paid databases like ProQuest or InfoTrac. If you're still not finding gallery and museum shows for Mann, speak to your librarian or ask for help at Wikipedia:Reference desk. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:07, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I just noticed that you're in Germany and might not fully understand English, which might explain why you thought being a commercial illustrator means he is not an artist. An illustrator is an artist, see [1] for example. The distinction you might be looking for is between fine art and other forms of art. The article doesn't claim that Mann made fine art so it's not an issue. In spite of this, a few fine art galleries and museums have included David Mann, though that is their business. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:26, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

El Forasteros criminal activities[edit]

It is a well established fact based on numerous reliable sources that El Forasteros are a criminal organization. Their primary function is for the members of the club to commit crimes, mostly theft and drug trafficking. Attempts to frame this with scare quotes or disclaimers are a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:09, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Moved back to David Mann (painter)[edit]

My move summary got garbled, I meant to say "WP:PRECISION"...Be precise, but only as precise as necessary. Do not choose "Queen (London, England rock band)" over Queen (band). Remember that concise titles are preferred.

The article needs to be moved again, from Dave Mann (painter) to David Mann (painter). Virtually all sources say David, not Dave. Article titles always reflect whatever the common sources use, not necessarily what a person's friends always called him. See WP:COMMONNAME. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I guess it depends on how well you know the subject Dennis. I can tell you that for 40 years he has been referred to as Dave Mann. Ed Roth calls him Dave (Rat Fink: The Art of Ed "Big Daddy" Roth by Ed Roth). I'd say he was a most reliable source in this genre.
I had a problem with "painter" because, on one hand, he worked in other mediums than just paint and, on the other, it might be more accurate to call him an "illustrator" because his work, especially that of which he was famous, was illustration not art. "Artist" was a happy medium but still a little pretentious as his work never made it into the artworld, hence he what he was famous for was being a biker artist. --Bridge Boy (talk) 21:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia isn't about what anybody did for 40 years. That's what your personal blog is for. Wikipedia is just what we find published. It's one of the core policies: WP:Verifiability. And look at his official website: It says "David Mann Official Website... About David...etc." His books were published as "by David Mann", not by "Dave Mann." Saying (artist) instead of (painter) makes no difference to me. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:56, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
There are a couple of weakness in your argument Dennis, and I must ask you to temper your insults and personal attack against me.
Those weaknesses are that a) the majority of Wikipedia artists are using as references a narrow selection of those presented by Google on the internet which, naturally, also reflect narrow and current timeframe, and b) not all reliable sources are equal. Some are more accurate than others, and takes a little knowledge of the subject to be able to tell the difference.
I know Dave Man actually signed his illustrations both as Dave Mann and David Mann. I have a large collection of old fashioned ink on paper magazines and a few books where he is referred, and refers to himself as Dave Mann. I would say "Dave Mann" is the common usage most people know him by. Through the rise and main period of his his work, he was clearly known and referred to as Dave Mann (and still is by an equivalent number of reliable and more reliable sources, e.g. the Daddy Roth book. Go to Google and count them), e.g. looking at other topics like Pelé, Pelé is listed as Pelé and not Edson Arantes do Nascimento his proper name. I'd wager if you asked most bikers of those generations who David Mann is, they'd look at confused until they realised you were speaking of Dave Mann.
Just why he chose to change his name in the later part of his career, or why his family have chosen to market him as "David" via the website, I have not actually looked into. Perhaps he just grew up and wanted to appear more respectable like the rest of us. The use of "David Mann" has really only arisen since the commercial retrospective of his work. I suspect it is just a commercial thing.
We have a problem because there is also a real David Mann (artist), hence why I chose to define Dave Mann more specifically as a motorcycle artist.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bridge Boy (talkcontribs) 05:07, 26 May 2012‎
Nobody has insulted you in any way. If you really feel you've been insulted, please tell me what exactly the insult was. Or else drop it.

David Mann lists the David Manns we have articles for; the only thing necessary in the article title is to distinguish them from each other. That other artist doesn't have a Wikipedia article so it's irrelevant. If he gets an article someday, then maybe some pages will have to be moved. Who knows? Saying "I'll wager..." is not convincing. Read Wikipedia:Article titles and cite sources showing that the page should be renamed, as per policy. Almost every source cited in the article calls him "David Mann", including his official site. To me that settles it. What makes your mates down at the pub look confused is not how we decide article titles.

Can you tell me, specifically, which sources you think are more reliable than his official website and his published books? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:38, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Just to follow up, I think you're mistaken, but I'm wrong for making such a big deal out of this. It doesn't matter that much whether it meets WP:PRECISION or not. If you really want to move the page, move it to whatever you like, and I won't revert it. But I predict that sooner or later some other editor will move it back, so you'd probably want to try to understand the policy a little better. Or get a third opinion at the Motorcycling Project talk page, or Wikipedia:Third opinion. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 23:38, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
You can be abrasive or belittling Dennis and you have your own obvious bias in this area of motorcycling which throwing around a whole heap or policy acronyms does not hide (a general response further reaching than just this topic discussion). Like I said, for the first 30 + years of his career his illustrations were signed Dave Mann and he is referred to as that. He is still referred to as that in many of the print based references to his work.
The policy states what he is "commonly known" as and although David is obviously his proper name, what he was commonly known during his life was Dave so, please, less of the insults about "mates down the pub". What you have going on here is the internet, or more specifically dependency on easily found and copied internet references, warping reality post the commercial retrospective of his work.
Which does policy state is 'correct' when someone was known by one name for the entirety of their career and then another more formal one after their death? I'd go by "expert opinion", e.g. in this case Ed Roth (Rat Fink: The Art of Ed "Big Daddy" Roth). Dave used to have a habit of "hiding" his signature 'Dave Mann' somewhere on the artwork. --Bridge Boy (talk) 02:26, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I can't figure out what bias has to do with favoring David or Dave. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. To me it's academic -- hence my unwillingness to fight over it any more. Go ahead and change it, if you like. You are wrong about your assumption that I only work from Internet sources. I have a moderately respectable library of motorcycle related histories, and I don't just search Google. I depend mostly on General OneFile, ProQuest, Highbeam and NewspaperARCHIVE.com so that I can survey magazine, journal, and newspaper articles that aren't normally available via regular web search, or are behind paywalls.

The policy is simply a matter of producing verifiable sources. Tell us the titles, authors, dates, etc. of published works that mostly call him Dave and not David. It's just as simple as that. And also explain why his official website and his published books use David and not Dave. I'm not contesting it, but some day some other editor will contest it so it would be better if you can list your sources and not just talk about things you remember or maybe once heard. Just list your sources; nothing more or less. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 04:14, 27 May 2012 (UTC)