Talk:Erik Magnusson (duke)

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On 23 September 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Eric Magnusson (duke) to Erik Magnusson (duke). The result of the discussion was moved.

Untitled

Eric had a substantive title, duke of Sudermannia, and he was widely known by it - almost all chronicles and so forth refer to Duke. This fits extraordinarily well to naming conventions of royalty and nobility, which says that article name should include "Duke of X". Suedois 09:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 22:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Eric Magnusson

Requested move 19 April 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move to Eric Magnusson (duke) (there was consensus to move, and this title had no apparent objection) — Andy W. (talk) 05:50, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Eric, Duke of Södermanland → Eric Magnusson – Eric was not "Duke of Södermanland". His duchy was made up of Södermanland and parts of Uppland, but his title was simply "Duke"(c.f. Svensk biografiskt Lexikon [1]). The current title only give hits on what appears to be automated translations of books in Swedish and a "book" made up of Wikipedia articles in Google books [2]. If the current disambiguation page for Eric Magnusson is deemed to have higher priority, this could be moved to Eric Magnusson (duke) instead. Andejons (talk) 09:49, 19 April 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. Yashovardhan (talk) 17:34, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As we've learned (sadly), what someone actually was is not as important to Wikipedia as what someone has been known as. An excellent (and very sad) example is Hedwig of Holstein, whose name actually was not Hedwig but Helwig. I believe Eric has been mostly known as Duke of Sudermania (Södermanland) in Sweden, as his brother was mostly known mostly as Duke of Finland, and that whatever they have been mostly known as in Swedish literature should reflect on any decision to move this article. Eric's highest title was Duke of Swealand, but he only held that for a few years, before becoming duke of all those other areas. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:09, 19 April 2017 (UTC).[reply]

Except that he is not known as "Erik, hertig av Södermanland". He is known as "hertig Erik". The current name is neither reflect an established English name or a translation of a common Swedish name.

Andejons (talk) 16:12, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed target is a dab page, so this is really a multi-move request. Is the Eric in question the primary meaning of "Eric Magnusson"? The English edition of The Chronicle of Duke Erik indexes "Eric Magnusson, Duke of Södermanland". Srnec (talk) 20:44, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what would be the primary meaning. A move to "Duke Eric Magnusson" or something similar would be fine as well, my main object here is to get rid of the misleading part.

I have dug into the literature, and it appears that Eric's title was "Duke of the Swedes" ("sveahertig"). He is given this title in sv:Sveriges historia (Norstedts), a recent comprehensive history of Sweden. It also fits with what he calls himself in letters, see e.g. [3], [4].

I did not get any hits on the Chronicle during my first search, but it does appear to be a scholarly translation. Strange then, that they should have gotten something like this wrong. We can, however, compare with The Cambridge history of Scandinavia, which calls him "Duke Erik" or "Duke Erik Magnusson".

Andejons (talk) 12:28, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I then suggest Eric, Duke of Swealand (1282), if moved at all, which would be an accurate and (to English readers) less confusing translation of svea hertig, and with the year given would distinguish him from the previous title holder. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:38, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I hardly see the point in moving him from one non-standard title if we move him to one that is even more wrong. "Svealand" appears to be first attested in the seventeenth century[5], which would make such a title anachronistic in the extreme. English speakers are probably not going to find "Duke of Swealand" any more easy to understand than "Duke of the Swedes", if we must use such a title.

Andejons (talk) 18:09, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK Eric, Duke of the Swedes (1282) would be fine with me. But not "Eric Magnusson (duke)" since there were 2 such (one who later was King), both famous. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:37, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you are thinking of Eric XII of Sweden, he was never a duke. "Eric, Duke of the Swedes" is unambiguous and seems to be in line with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility). If that does not suit, "Duke Erik Magnusson" is also OK.

Andejons (talk) 17:54, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake, you're right about King Eric, son of Magnus IV of Sweden. I do not object to Eric, Duke of the Swedes. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:20, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted Andejons please respond to talk:SergeWoodzing's latest proposed title. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Close. Do not propose to rename to an existing page without discussion what to do with the existing page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:03, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: I believe the latest agreed proposal is Eric, Duke of the Swedes. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:28, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Swedish Wikipedia titles this Erik Magnusson (hertig), which Google translates to Erik Magnusson (Duke) – "of the Swedes" seems less WP:concise. wbm1058 (talk) 02:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objection to Eric Magnusson (duke), but what's more normal on enWP is to state what someone was duke, duchess, prince, princess of especially if we capitalize the title. Eric as English for historical persons named Erik is also more normal here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:14, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Good points; I'm not really familiar with naming conventions in this area, nor with Swedish royalty. So, big picture, start with Duchies in Sweden. From that I find the two categories Category:Dukes of Swedish Provinces and Category:Dukedoms of Sweden. What is the difference between these two categories? It's not clear. All of the former's subcats are also in the latter.

Category:Dukes of Swedish Provinces has ten sub-categories, does that mean there are ten provinces of Sweden? No, Sweden has 25 provinces.

Category:Dukedoms of Sweden also has the same ten sub-categories, plus an eleventh: Category:Dukes of Stegeborg. Stegeborg redirects to Stegeborg Castle, which is apparently not a province.

Province	Dukes	Provinces of Sweden
Ångermanland
Blekinge
Bohuslän
Dalarna	Category:Dukes of Dalarna
Dalsland
Gotland	Category:Dukes of Gotland
Gästrikland
Halland	Category:Dukes of Halland
Hälsingland
Härjedalen
Jämtland
Lappland
Medelpad
Norrbotten
Närke	Category:Dukes of Närke
Öland
Östergötland	Category:Dukes of Östergötland
Skåne	Category:Dukes of Skåne
Småland
Södermanland	Category:Dukes of Södermanland
Uppland	Category:Dukes of Uppland
Värmland	Category:Dukes of Värmland
Västmanland
Västerbotten
Västergötland	Category:Dukes of Västergötland

Eric, Duke of Södermanland is currently in both Category:Dukes of Södermanland and Category:Dukes of Västergötland. The lead sentence of his bio says he was Duke of Svealand, Södermanland, Dalsland, Västergötland, Värmland and North Halland. Svealand is defined in terms of the historical provinces and roughly comprises the modern counties of Dalarna, Örebro, Södermanland, Stockholm, Uppsala, Värmland and Västmanland. Is Duke of the Swedes an actual title, or a neolism? Are there any provinces that he was not the duke of? Maybe, as Eric (Magnusson), Duke of Svealand, Södermanland, Dalsland, Västergötland, Värmland and North Halland is such a long title, we can shorten it to the simple and common name Eric Magnusson, Duke or Duke Eric Magnusson? wbm1058 (talk) 13:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Or Eric Magnusson (duke), as suggested by the originator of this RM, may be best, even though the lower-case parenthetical is not the normal convention. It seems this particular duke didn't follow the normal convention of being the duke of just one province. This seems to be the solution that the Swedish Wiki settled on. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Edit conflict] My word what an analysis!

Thank you for your interest. I will try to answer your questions (numbering them for clarity) as well as I can.

Most importantly, as Andejons has explained above, Eric, Duke of the Swedes is as close as we can get to a correct translation of the Swedish title he actually had. I still support that option in first place as per my eventual proposal here.
Some Swedish provinces have never had dukes, and a few which have had dukes have not had categories created here.
Svealand, which I choose to call Swealand in English, is a traditional part of Sweden, one of the three main parts, but has never actually had any political signigicance of its own, nor has there ever literally been a Duke of Swealand.
Eric was at first Duke of the Swedes, which would be a higher title, and later was Duke only of a few spefically designated provinces, by far not of all of them. Duke Eric Magnusson or Eric Magnusson, Duke would also work by me, as long as there have been no Danish or Norwegian Dukes by that name (that, I do not know).
Stegeborg was once a dukedom without ever having been a province.
Duchies in Sweden should include Stegeborg, and also include areas no longer a part of Sweden, such as Finland and Estonia.
Dukes of Swedish provinces should however not include those 3 dukedoms. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:17, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason not to specify what he was duke of, regardless of whether not that (not specifying) is common at svWP. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SergeWoodzing seems to have it right in the above posts. I especially want to voice my agreement with the assertion that there are several possible acceptable names.

Andejons (talk) 15:19, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusions

We have a consensus to move from the current name. Noting that Swedish Wikipedia moved nearly ten years ago.

So the main question remaining is whether to follow suit and move to Eric Magnusson (duke), or a similar variant of that Duke Eric Magnusson or Eric Magnusson, Duke ––or––

move to Eric, Duke of the Swedes. Searching English books for "Duke of the Swedes" doesn't find much to support this, so we seem to be relying on your Swedish sources, which I can't really verify. I'd feel more comfortable with "Duke of the Swedes" if the term was actually used in the article, and if the Swedish version used that term too. "Duke of the Swedes" seems like a lofty title for someone who temporarily fled to exile in Norway. That term implies to me that they were the Duke of all the provinces, kind of like a "virtual" king. wbm1058 (talk) 17:03, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting for the last time for everyone to agree on a title. Yashovardhan (talk) 17:34, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Eric Magnusson (duke). If the Swedish article is using this title, then that indicates that this is the sort of wording we should be using in the title too. It also matches with out own naming conventions regarding parenthetical disambiguation. There is no natural disambiguation commonly used in English, therefore we should use parenthetical dab. This option is the most concise. — Insert CleverPhrase Here 08:25, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Eric Magnusson (duke). I don't believe anyone has objected to this; while it may not be everyone's #1 choice, lacking consensus or sufficient sourcing to confirm a specific title, this seems like the best choice for now. wbm1058 (talk) 15:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 23 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved as an uncontested request with minimal participation. If there is any objection within a reasonable time frame, please ask me to reopen the discussion; if I am not available, please ask at the technical requests page. (closed by non-admin page mover) jlwoodwa (talk) 22:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Eric Magnusson (duke) → Erik Magnusson (duke) – Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONSISTENT.

The keyword "Duke Eric Magnusson" returns no Ngrams, while "Duke Erik Magnusson" does: [6]
The number and the quality of relevant English-language Google Books hits for Duke "Erik Magnusson" is much higher than for Duke "Eric Magnusson" (restricted post-1970 books)
Britannica spells the names of the Swedish royalty "Erik" instead of "Eric" since 1980s or so. (Erik Magnusson in Britannica)
Consistency with the patronymics: Its more natural to call Magnus Eriksson's father "Erik" instead of "Eric".

— Jähmefyysikko (talk) 19:54, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.