Talk:Holy Roman Empire

Sicily and the infobox map

Dear restless IP, since this seems very important to you and you interpret the source UNIO REGNI AD IMPERIUM in "Federiciana" as if Sicily was part of the Empire from 1194 until the end of the Hohenstaufen dynasty, let's discuss.

The infobox map was already discussed in two sections (1, 2) of the last archived discussion page, also in this section several years ago. One consent was that Sicily was reigned by the Hohenstaufen emperors in personal union. The given source UNIO REGNI AD IMPERIUM explains how the Hohenstaufen, especially Henry VI, claimed Sicily for the Empire, established their rule in the right of Queen Constance, but then Henry failed with his Erbreichsplan that could have united the Empire and Sicily. The source speaks of a personal union, not of Sicily as part of the Empire. Another consent in previous discussions was that the map should only include parts of the Empire, not dependencies, and in no way it should include Venice. A later discussion adressed factual errors of the previously used maps like the inclusion of Sardinia which was claimed by the Hohenstaufen one time but never actually got under their control. Palastwache (talk) 11:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

No map of 17th century religious divisions?

@Aearthrise: Following the changes you did in late January, there is now no map that shows the religious divisions of the empire on the eve of the Thirty Years War. It appears that you tried to replace the old map by File:The Protestant Union within the Holy Roman Empire (c. 1610).svg,[1] and then decided to get rid of it entirely. I think that's been a mistake, and would suggest that we add back File:HolyRomanEmpire 1618.png. Renerpho (talk) 21:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Religion in infobox

@Sigehelmus and Karma1998: I agree with Karma1998 that the current note is silly. Worse, nothing in or to the HRE in 1054, as the infobox makes it appear. But Sigehelmus has a point, too. More relevant concepts for the earlier period are Latin West and Greek East and Latin Church. —Srnec (talk) 01:33, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it is ridiculous, and highly misleading - the post-Reformation stuff is worse than the usual silliness around the Gt Schism. Johnbod (talk) 01:51, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

There is a lot of general problems with Wikipedia treatment of pre-Schism historiography. And that's okay; really it's a legacy of the 2000s when the East was hardly given a glance. Most people didn't even know what "Orthodox" meant. It seems only in the past decade have things marginally improved (there's still tons of articles for example, of obscure ancient saints that only say "venerated in RC". I've tried to remedy this occasionally). I remember a time when many articles only mentioned the Western churches on general faith topics all the time. (I won't even get into the dearth of even more "eastern" perspectives like Coptic/Nestorian, but it'd probably be a mess)

As for the HRE per se, as I believe Johnbod is implying (forgive me if not), I think the current infobox is a bit hypocritical. All that rich text about later intricacies, and we can't fit one discreet note in there about the early period? Either it should be simplified and lean for focus, or fill it out for the reader's education. I already mentioned that St. Henry II is proof that this isn't a matter of East vs West politics but of Communion of Rome with the wider Orthodox world. It's not like this is a minor duchy or something, but a history-shattering millennium state that did have direct connection and was a sort of gate to the Orthodox world in various dynamics.

Last note: Wikipedia - and Western historians in general - don't seem to have any good "neutral" term for the Pre-Schism Church, particularly early medieval and thus excllising Coptics etc. "Great Church/Early Church" is too antique/Roman (and implicitly includes churches rejected at Chalcedon). "Chalcedonian Christianity" seems to be the common substitute, but feels unwieldy. It's probably not our job to solve that as we report what's consensus, but we should take NPOV seriously. As it stands, excluding the Orthodox perspective (which isn't necessarily "Eastern" either as Western Rite Orthodoxy proves) totally doesn't fit Wiki guidelines in my view. Surely something can be done?

This isn't about token trinkets, but about a plain reality that the "East" sincerely believes that all lands under the Patriarchate of Rome as far as the Icelandic Commonwealth and beyond were fully in Communion until... not 1054 exactly actually, but that's for another day. ~Sıgehelmus♗_(Tøk) 10:36, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Don't blame Wikipedia; this reflects a general issue, that you have outlined. But the problem is theoretical rather than practical, and so not of much interest to historians, especially English-speaking ones, as Eastern Christianity was so far away from Britain in the EMA (and Rome not that close either). The rare and tenuous contacts that can be traced between EMA Britain & Eastern churches seem to be mostly with Copts anyway. He may be in some calendars, but how much do the EO actually venerate "St. Henry II"? I take it he is not in Greek calendars. My objection to the "rich text" about the Early Modern period is that it is both mystifying and misleading, not explaining that the "official" denomination(s) were decided locally for most of the time. That is the main, possibly the only, thing the box should say. Johnbod (talk) 11:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Let me preface this by noting the role technology played in the context of all this, both in olden times and today, and also I am not a priest nor even a lay theologian. If I present this wrongly please excuse me and I encourage everyone study this more. East-West relations were strained and certainly not helped by slow communications of the day, which affected even church documentation. As far as I am aware, with virtually no exceptions, by default any Roman Catholic saint before the Schism is ipso facto also an Orthodox one, from major Church Father to obscure Merovingian martyr. A recent modern example is the Serbian Orthodox Church explicitly listing St. Patrick on its synaxis. This seems to be motivated, if I must guess, partly from communications heightened by the internet, or even to disprove the notion Orthodoxy is necessarily Eastern. That doesn't mean he wasn't a saint before or Orthodox couldn't invoke him before, only that he is acknowledged for wide veneration instead of languishing in scholarly records. There are now, as far as I'm aware, a myriad of sites and records of Western saints explcitly listed for Orthodox veneration. A major classic one in the Anglophone internet is the site Orthodox England, which lists non-exhaustively many more obscure Western saints. Including those that probably before the internet, only a few clerics and village grandmothers invoked at all the previous the century. I see no reason where for example, as OE lists, St. Abbo of France wouldn't be considered an Orthodox saint, despite living in a time of Frankish-Byzantine tensions. That's a fault of the fallen world, not of the Church. Even in cases where, close to the Schism, the Western church was doing non-normative liturgical practices, Communion was still not broken.

As for my star example of St. Henry II, even his wiki article states the Patriarchate of Antioch lists him. The source given is a German-Russian site (unfortunately there's still a ton of Orthodox texts left untranslated to English). If I remember right, a year or 2 ago the ROC explcitly listed a lot of pre Schism German saints to be venerated in German parishes. This is about inculturation and pastoral pragmatism, not theological concern. The chest was already in the attic and is just being dusted off, so to speak. Just like even "ethnic" parishes in USA mod and more will mention Western saints like St. Gregory the Great of Rome in services and other functions. To prove it's not just a "Greek thing", but a restoration. Internally, clergy have lamented this misconception and Western saints play a role in mending it.

Please excuse the rambling of course, but I thought this was important context.

If religion for the HRE article must be listed, it should acknowledge in some form, especially since the state was directly involved in the Schism and there are many misconceptions about this era, that until Rome broke communion (but also see the substack I linked, not so simple), in the Orthodox view the HRE was Orthodox, despite political problems. Just like Britain, Spain, etc. I mean, that's the long and short of it. To say it was only "Roman Catholic" in the 800s is to mislead history outside of an explicitly RC view, even if we struggle to find a neat replacement label. ~Sıgehelmus♗_(Tøk) 12:43, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

P. S. Note there are a few Post-Schism Orthodox Western saints as well like St. John Theristus, which may fit in that article I linked, but this gets into a scope of ecclesiastical matters and I know not what else that I don't feel comfortable speaking on. Again, please take all this with a grain of salt. I just know for sure that from the perspective of the second biggest church in the world, the Latin west was Orthodox until the Pope (of which many pre Schism are venerated) left. ~Sıgehelmus♗_(Tøk) 12:52, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

History subsection, 3rd paragraph

Towards the end of the paragraph, the pope's name is incorrectly listed as Leo III instead of Gregory II. IvyYorke (talk) 19:06, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Wrong list of constituent territories of the Crown of Bohemia

Under the "imperial families and dynasties" chapter there is a section enumerating the constituent lands of the Crown of Bohemia as follows: "Bohemia (as well as associated territories such as Upper and Lower Alsatia, Silesia and Moravia)"

Instead of Upper and Lower Alsatia it should probably say Upper and Lower Lusatia.

Also Bohemia could be referred to as the Crown of Bohemia to differentiate it from the Kingdom of Bohemia, but I saw that this idiom is not used for the other composite monarchies so I'm not sure on this one. Shakti1311 (talk) 10:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)