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"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change." - Anonymous (not by Charles Darwin)

cite templates fix Talk:Objections to evolution

Dominant political camps based on evolutionary psychology[edit]

The overall trend in politics is for the conservative-right to be contrasted by the liberal-left. Broadly speaking the contrast of the quick to act, emotional hunter; versus quick to ponder, logical gatherer. Both traits exist in humans as being omnivores allows us to seek food from many sources -- the right hunting, the left gathering -- both feeding our hungry brains. Independents in a true democracy sit in the middle and swing the cultural pendulum back when it strays from the center. In ancient times, this personality pendulum reacting to a crisis would dictate if a tribe stayed still, moved on or split. The splinters would be dominated by warriors and the new tribe would hover like a satellite around a left dominated settlement. If the settlement stabilizes the crisis it may reintegrate the warrior tribe, if decimated the splinters become the seeds of new settlements that over time recreate the full left-right spectrum. Once a settlement takes root around a stable food/water source, warriors become the slight minority because their mortality is higher with more risk taking. The cycle repeats with the next crisis, keeping our species mobile when needed. This shows maintaining our political spectrum increases our resilience and cultural stability.

In art, literature, and film[edit]

Art serves to humanize the abortion issue and illustrates the myriad of decisions and consequences it has. One of the earliest known representations of abortion is in a bas relief at Angkor Wat (c. 1150). Pro-life activist Børre Knudsen was implicated in a 1994 art theft as part of a pro-life drive in Norway surrounding the 1994 Winter Olympics.[1] A Swiss gallery removed a piece from a Chinese art collection in 2005, that had the head of a fetus attached to the body of a bird.[2] In 2008, a Yale student proposed using aborted excretions and the induced abortion itself as a performance art project.[3]

The Cider House Rules (novel 1985, film 1999) follows the story of Dr. Larch an orphanage director who is a reluctant abortionist after seeing the consequences of back-alley abortions, and his orphan medical assistant Homer who is against abortion.[4] Feminist novels such as Braided Lives (1997) by Marge Piercy emphasize the struggles women had in dealing with unsafe abortion in various circumstances prior to legalization.[5] Doctor Susan Wicklund wrote This Common Secret (2007) about how a personal traumatic abortion experience hardened her resolve to provide compassionate care to women who decide to have an abortion. As Wicklund crisscrosses the West to provide abortion services to remote clinics, she tells the stories of women she's treated and the sacrifices herself and her loved ones made.[6] In 2009, Irene Vilar revealed her past abuse and addiction to abortion in Impossible Motherhood, where she aborted 15 pregnancies in 17 years. According to Vilar it was the result of a dark psychological cycle of power, rebellion and societal expectations.[7]

Various options and realities of abortion have been dramatized in film. In Riding in Cars with Boys (2001) an underage woman decides to keep her baby, moves in with the father and finds herself involved with drugs, has no opportunities, and questioning if she loves her child. While in Juno (2007) a 16-year-old initially goes to have an abortion but finds she would be happier having it adopted by a wealthy couple. Other films Dirty Dancing (1987) and If These Walls Could Talk (1996) explore the availability, affordability and dangers of illegal abortions. The emotional impact of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy alone is the focus of Things You Can Tell Just By Looking At Her (2000) and Circle of Friends (1995). As a marriage was in trouble in the The Godfather Part II (1974) she knew the relationship was over when she aborted "a son" in secret.[8] On the abortion debate, an irresponsible drug addict is used as a pawn in a power struggle between pro-choice and pro-life groups in Citizen Ruth (1996).[9]

  1. ^ "Art theft linked to pro-life drive Abortion foe hints painting's return hinges on TV film" (html). Retrieved 2010-06-27. 
  2. ^ "Principally relating to Xiao Yu's work Ruan" (html). Other Shore Artfile. Retrieved 2010-06-27. 
  3. ^ Soupcoff, Marni (2008-04-17). "Marni Soupcoff's Zeitgeist: Photofiddle,, Mandie Brady and Aliza Shvarts". Full Comment. National Post. Retrieved 2008-04-30. 
  4. ^ John Irving (1985). The Cider House Rules. New York: William Morrow. ISBN 068803036X. 
  5. ^ Marge Piercy (1997). Braided Lives. New York: Ballantine Books. ISBN 978-0449000915. 
  6. ^ Sue Wicklund; Susan Wicklund (2007). This Common Secret: My Journey as an Abortion Doctor. New York: PublicAffairs. ISBN 1-58648-480-X. 
  7. ^ Irene Vilar (2009). Impossible Motherhood: Testimony of an Abortion Addict. Other Press. ISBN 978-1590513200. 
  8. ^ "The Godfather: Part II (1974) - Memorable quotes" (html). Retrieved 2010-07-01. 
  9. ^ "films that discuss Abortion . . . a movie list" (html). Retrieved 2010-06-13. 

Peer review[edit]


RJHall comments: Overall this is a really nice piece of work. However, I do have a few suggestions that I hope are of some use:

  • There is widespread use of the double quotation marks in the text. Are these meant as specific quotations, intended to be ironic, or to signal unusual usage? I'm not completely sure that the current usage is properly encyclopedic. For example, are quotes needed in the following? Are they specifically quoting somebody?
    • Biologists do not consider any one species, such as humans, to be more "highly evolved" or "advanced" than another.
    • The scientific consensus of biologists, not popular opinion or "fairness",...
    • make them scientific "alternatives" to evolution.
    • The purpose of this criticism is to undermine the "higher ground" biologists claim...
  • "...evolution than calling it a "theory" is." It's usually not considered the best form to put an "is" at the end of a sentence. The wording would look more polished if this was addressed.
  • "...apparent design of snowflakes is." Ditto.
  • "...enthusiastically or dogmatically engaged in." is ending a sentence with a preposition.

* "...beneficial to be selected for." Ditto.

  • "Critics also state that..."; the 'also' here is an additive term that is redundant, per User:Tony1/How_to_satisfy_Criterion_1a#Eliminating_redundancy. Perhaps this can be re-worded in some manner?
  • "One of the most recent major objections..." may be considered unnecessary vagueness. How recent was this?
  • In the sub-sentence, "...defined by how dogmatic, closed-minded, or zealous its adherents are...", are the 'closed-minded' and 'zealous' statements appropriate or necessary? The text here is only comparing religion to the supposed dogmatism of evolutionary supporters. It says nothing about them being 'closed-minded' and 'zealous'. Thus the wording appears to be deliberately adding extra emotive weight to one side of the argument.
  • I think the statement that "...certain fossils, such as polystrate fossils, are seemingly "out of place"." could use a counterargument.
  • The paragraph "In addition to complex structures... ...biological origin of these phenomena either." is missing a citation.
  • "Many still object to the idea ... have reconciled their beliefs with evolution through theistic evolution." Ditto.
  • From a readability perspective, I might suggest that a few of the later paragraphs are on the overly long side. Inserting an extra paragraph break or two would make for more pleasant reading.
  • An objection I didn't see mentioned was the early but important issue, raised by Lord Kelvin, that evolution hadn't had sufficient time to work because the Earth couldn't be more than a few hundred million years old. (Subsequently refuted of course.) But perhaps you didn't want to delve into that much detail.

Thanks.—RJH (talk) 21:38, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Finetooth comments: I'm working my way through this article to see if I can add anything to what RJH has noted above. Clicking on the tools in the toolbox on this review page, I see that the link checker finds seven dead links in the citation urls, the dabfinder tool finds two links that go to disambiguation pages rather than their intended targets, and the alt text viewer shows that all of the images lack alt text. The latter is meant for readers who can't see the images. Please see WP:ALT for details. All of these things should be fixed before taking the article to FAC. I'll come back in a while and post a few more comments. Finetooth (talk) 19:47, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Further Finetooth comments: This is quite interesting, certainly broad and illuminating. The prose is of professional quality and should be fine at FAC. I made a tiny number of proofing changes, and I have some further thoughts and suggestions.

"Heads and subheads"

  • Objections might be raised regarding the section heads, which repeat the main words of the article title over and over again. WP:MOSHEAD says in part, "Section names should not explicitly refer to the subject of the article, or to higher-level headings, unless doing so is shorter or clearer." Although I can usually think of short, snappy heads and subheads to replace long, repetitive ones, in this case I'm unsure. Perhaps (1) "Definition", (2) "History", (3) Scientific acceptance, (3.1) Just a theory, not a fact, (3.2) Controversial or contested, (4) Scientific acceptance, and so on would be better, but this may be a case where the usual guidelines do not apply.


  • "A number of objections to evolution have been raised... " - Tighten by deleting "A number of"?

Defining evolution

  • "Humans are led to believe otherwise by our tendency to evaluate nonhuman organisms according to our own, anthropocentric standards, rather than more objective ones." - Wikipedia generally avoids using first person pronouns except in direct quotes. For that reason, I'd suggest using "their tendency" and "their own" rather than "our tendency" and "our own". WP:MOS#First-person pronouns has details.

History of objections

  • "as this conflicted with First Vatican Council's (1869-70)" - All date ranges and page ranges in the article should use an en dash rather than a hyphen; e.g. (1869–70).
  • "This position has been adopted by denominations of Christianity and Judaism in line with modernist theology which views the Bible and Torah as allegorical removing the conflict between evolution and religion." - Tweak slightly for better flow by adding ", thus" after "allegorical"?

Evolution is unfalsifiable

  • The Manual of Style (MOS) advises against using blockquotes for any quotation of less than four lines. The Darwin quote in this section is only two lines on my computer screen. I'd recommend embedding it in the text with ordinary quotation marks. See WP:MOSQUOTE for details.
  • "Typically, a flourishing science is incomplete. At any time, it raised more questions than it can currently answer." - "raises" rather than "raised"?

Evolution cannot create complex structures

  • The Dawkins' blockquote is only three lines on my screen. It's pretty close to four, so it may be OK.

Evolution cannot create information

  • The Answers in Genesis quote is only two lines. I'd suggest embedding this one.

Evolution leads to immorality and social ills

  • "teen pregnancies, homosexuality, abortion, immorality, wars, etc. are caused... " - I'd either drop the "etc." or complete the list.
  • "Kent Hovind's son Eric Hovind has now taken over the family business while his father is in prison... " - Is it relevant that his father is in prison?


  • Citation 3 has a line of all caps that should be rendered in title case even though the source uses all caps. WP:ALLCAPS has details.
  • I see minor variances in the citations that should be eliminated. The date formatting, for example, should be consistent. Most are yyyy-mm-dd, but I see some in m-d-y format. In some citations "page" is abbreviated "p.", but in others it appears as "Pg." They should all be the same. Several of the citations are incomplete. When possible, it's good to include author, title, publisher, date of publication, url, and access date for Internet sources.


  • The Kitcher ref should take the same form as the refs in "Further reading".


  • The license page for Image:Charles Darwin 1880.jpg lacks a source that can be verified by fact-checkers. You might be able to get the information from the original uploader and add it.
  • It's not clear from the image license page for Image:Haeckel drawings.jpg whether the drawing was scanned from the Richardson and Keuck book or whether the book is being cited to support the incorrect attribution claim. In either case, what is the provenance of the original? When was it published? How can a fact-checker be certain that the copyright has expired if no date of publication is included in the description? (Date of creation is not the same as date of publication.)
    • Clarified it was created/published in 1892 with PDF of source. - RoyBoy 23:51, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
  • What is the source of Image:WilliamPaley.jpg? The given source link is self-referential, and won't be of any help to fact-checkers.
    • Unknown. - RoyBoy 03:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I hope these suggestions prove helpful. If so, please consider reviewing another article, especially one from the PR backlog. That is where I found this one. Finetooth (talk) 22:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Old user page[edit]

Feat & Admin Feat & Admin end - MetaSimple
CWNB - Pump - Edit Counts - RfA - Pics - Tables - Actions - irc

It's not just that the overwhelming majority of scientists are now convinced that evolution is inscribed in the fossil record and in the lineaments of molecular biology. It is more that evolutionists will say in advance which evidence, if found, would refute them and force them to reconsider. ("Rabbit fossils in the pre-Cambrian layer" was, I seem to remember, the response of Prof. J.B.S. Haldane.) Try asking an "intelligent design" advocate to stipulate upfront what would constitute refutation of his world view and you will easily see the difference between the scientific method and the pseudoscientific one.

ABC peer review[edit]

Key issues for peer review resolution:

  • "caused" / "first trimester" vs "no association" in first sentence in lead, or scientific consensus vs scientific evidence as I see it
  • Existance / merge of "Views of medical organizations" section, SDY termed it as "appeal to authority"
  • Address "far from the worst thing in the article" objection(s) by Mastcell

News articles[edit]

The real problem for Wikipedia isn't that it's too big, too inaccurate or even too trivial. No, it's simply too cutting-edge, and that's technology's fault.

As broadband spreads and consumers become more internet-savvy, so it will get harder and harder for Wikipedia's writers to retain any sort of authority. Entries are made, edited and altered as things happen, sometimes even before. The site can't always reflect what people know any more; it reflects what people think.

In a way, the fact that Britannica was always a little bit out of date was its main strength, because time gave its writers and readers enough space to consider their ideas and acquire a little perspective.

Users in general - and Sir Norman in particular - could do well to remember that one person's fact is another person's falsehood, and that occasionally only time allows us to work out which is which.

Wikipedia: A very modern encyclopedia by Matt Warman

The question I have is, why is that a bad thing? Having this discussion out in the open, with Wiki history as memory, tracks the evolution of narrative.

Features and admins beat[edit]

Test Entry[edit]

Award For your efforts on cleaning up Electrical Equipment in Hazardous Areas; and keep up the great work! - RoyBoy 800 02:14, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

To realize, that like life, in order to succeed in whatever you do, you need to evolve constantly. To genuinely change your perception to suit the situation and to better yourself and the world around you. That there are no absolutes, just the situation. (Sun-Tzu?)

Not Sun Tzu. The most similar Sun Tzu statement is:
The Art of War, Chaper VI. Weak Points and Strong
31. Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing.
32. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions.
Just trying to be helpful. Feel free to delete this. KillerChihuahua?!? 16:08, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

To answer RoyBoy, it's not that it's in a low energy state, it is that it is in a state that is maintained by the creation of entropy as energy flows from high to low energy situations. This is the basis of the kind of order that characterizes living things. Basically, we exist because there is an energy source (the Sun) and sink (empty space), and a constant transfer of energy from the one to the other. Part of the process of energy transfer involves the spontaneous generation of ordered structures. Bill Jefferys 17:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

This is my sandbox. I will play with great delight. RoyBoy 19:46, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)


This is a quick and easy entry to edit for testing. RoyBoy | Talk 20:17, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Testing signature - RoyBoy [] 00:34, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

User:Alkivar/sig -  ALKIVARRadioactive.svg

New signature - RoyBoy 800 - RoyBoy [] 04:23, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"There is growing evidence in many cancers that a subset of stem/progenitor cells may drive the proliferation of diseased cells. A new field of "differentiation therapy," which seeks to induce the benign behavior or death of these cells, may herald a new era in cancer therapy." - Stuart Kauffman, University of Calgary, Author of "At Home in the Universe"

Online fanbase[edit]

A small but loyal international fanbase for Blade Runner remains active on the Internet. The first focal point was in 1992 when 2019: Off-World came online. Then in the fall of 1996 BladeZone appeared and evolved into a fan club and extensive website with exclusive interviews from actors and crew involved with the film. Also in 1996 the newsgroup was created and remains active; along with its website which has an updated FAQ and encyclopedia on the film. provides a forum for analytical essays and reviews of the film.

Beef jerky[edit]

partial freeze meat to slice thinly thinner = better cutting with grain makes thinner stuff that comes off in strips cut against grain crumbly, but softer and easier to bite

beef, eye of round roast, rib eye, serloin, flank (thin)

cups 1.5 soya sauce 0.5 teriyaki sauce 0.25 BBQ sauce 4 cloves garlic crushed 0.75 honey pinch of onion powder maybe beer

marinade 24hrs at least 6-8hrs per batch/rotate trays more open, more dry

Cool stuff[edit]




Article cruft[edit]


#-B: 2003 North America blackout 21st century AdBusters Adelbert Range Trek Age of the Earth Albert Leonard Oldham Talk:Ann_Coulter Avantouinti Benelli Bill Cameron Bradbury Building Brown note Borax Bushmeat

C-D: CASA Carboplatin Carl E. Stewart Changeling (Star Trek) Cherry Sisters Chinatown Collapse of the World Trade Center Conflict diamonds Counter-Strike Counter-Strike equipment Creation-evolution controversy Cyberathlete Professional League Daily Planet Dave Grohl David Carnegie Dull Knife Fight Dundas, Ontario

E-K: Electrical Equipment in Hazardous Areas Frontline_(PBS_TV_series) Far and Away Funky Monks George Foreman Hamilton, Ontario Hatak Helgalund Ho_Chi_Minh I like to watch Iran Air Flight 655 The Immortal Bard Jackass: The Movie John A. Burns School of Medicine Kashan Kokopelli Krist Novoselic

L-P: Liberty ship Linnea Lenkus DS9 List STNG List Members of Parliament on marriage Metcalfe's law Metrodorus Metropolitan Tract (Seattle) Missy Doty Mobile phone#Health controversy Natasha Lyonne Nirvana (band) Oceania Norman Borlaug Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster PAR2 Powder Protiodide

Q-Z: Qazvin (city) Recall bias Redemption (Star Trek) Replicant Self Decay September 11, 2001 attacks Shakespearean authorship#Christopher Marlowe Social problems in Chinatown Soldier (movie) Spam (Team Fortress) Spanish Armada Spirited Away Tex zippers The Score Toronto, Ontario Tuluá User:Tony Sidaway Utica Club Vanna White Versata Wiki.ORG X-ray vision

Wikipedia:Template messages: Template:Creationism2 - Template:Zork universe - Template:VOY_navigation

Merge: Rug making & Carpets (Proposed) - Pre 9/11 intelligence - Tulua

Wikipedia:Category: Category:Iranian architecture - Category:1619 books

Redirects: BBC World News Buskers Arts & crafts X-ray glasses Mortal combat Induced abortion Buzz Osborne McJobs Self decay Stanley "Tookie" Williams Bumfight Frontline World Reexistance Reexistence Alfred Percy Freeman Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy Troy James Hurtubise Ps2 linux Gamma benzene hexachloride Voigt-Kampff machine Jewish terrorist groups Spinner Sleepsex Future noir American Taliban Spirytus Spiritus Rectified spirit Grain neutral spirit Grain neutral spirits Pure grain alcohol Catatonic state Specific complexity Smartcar Tabletop fusion Pleural hemorrhage Degree celcius Future noir Wikispirit Thermasave Panel building system Panel building Stress skinned panel Structural insulated panels Arnold chiari Wikipedia:RC Patrol Rc patrol Quarter life crisis