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February 18[edit]

Distribution of animal products to supermarkets based on type[edit]

In many non-Asian American supermarkets, pig feet and beef tripe may be sold, but chicken feet and pig ear and animal blood curd seem to be exclusive to Asian-American supermarkets. Do Asian-American supermarkets receive all the animal meat byproducts? Or are most bones and organ meats fed to the dogs or made into plant fertilizer? 166.216.159.13 (talk) 15:51, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Dried blood is a thing. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:59, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
(e/c) Retail establishments like stores are re-sellers; they do not normally process any goods at all. In a case like this, a slaughterhouse has despatched the animals and sold some quantity to a butcher shop who has further processed it. They would then sell it either directly to a store (which is common with specialty items and 'ethnic foods') or to a foodservice DC, who in turn sells to restaurants and stores. At each of those points, purchasers have an opportunity to buy what they want and leave other things behind, just as you do in the grocery store. They may also to save a bit of money by buying a whole thing (like a whole chicken) and removing the bits they don't want themselves, but this generally gets less common the further away you get from the source. Matt Deres (talk) 16:03, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
That probably explains the situation in the USA correctly (which was the question) but in many other countries there is a butcher's counter in the supermarket and an area behind where carcasses are cut up. In Europe there are very strict regulations about handling offal (not always respected), so that kidneys and liver would be delivered to the retailer separately from the carcasses. I can buy a pig's ear from my independent butcher if I ask in advance, otherwise he will throw it away, but I don't think you could often buy one from a supermarket in Britain. You could buy a pig's ear in a supermarket in France. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:24, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
If I understand what you've written correctly, that seems very wasteful. If your butcher typically throws out the pig ears, why would he buy them? (I mean, I understand that when he buys them they're still attached to the pig or half-pig or whatever he's ordered, but the point still stands). In North America, the marketing line is that every part of the pig gets used except the oink, meaning that the animal is processed in such a way so that very little gets wasted. Pigs ears would be trimmed and sold separately (perhaps ground into pet feed). Matt Deres (talk) 13:56, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Meat processing is a multi-stage process. At the abattoir a certain level of cleaning and processing is done before being sent on to butchers and charcuterie. For the record, pigs ears are commonly dried and sold as chew toys for dogs: [1] or fresh for use in people food, [2]. They are a common ingredient in the U.S. cuisine known as soul food, and in a Filipino snack food known as tenga which is similar to pork rinds or chicharrón. --Jayron32 16:37, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

[3] mentions a "butcher" (whatever is meant by that) in Austria selling pig ears to China. (Although it perhaps goes a bit far in calling them a delicacy. They're enjoyed and eaten yes but my impression as semi supported by Pig's ear (food)#Chinese cuisine is they're more just an everday food in most cases. There may be some places where they're a delicacy, but they're not something like e.g. Chicken feet#Chinese cuisine.)

I think a relevant point is that whether or not pig ears are normally thrown away in parts of Europe or places like NZ* which I don't know, and reducing food waste is good, ultimately you do need to find a profitable way to use the parts which works under your local system. And this includes storage, collection and transport to wherever they may be used. It may be the systems in the US allow this, but those in parts of Europe don't. E.g. we know a lot of fruit and veges are thrown away in much of the developed world simply because they don't look good enough or are too small or whatever and there isn't any market worth sending them to that's worth the cost. (Although one of the problems there is the lower value of even the good products and the difficulty with transport and storage given the ease of damage.)

* = Yes supermarkets here often do have a butchery which processes at least some of the meat sold. I'm not sure what percentage but the butchers definitely do something more than relabelling meat with newer best before dates [4]. See e.g. [5] [6] about various awards won by butchers at supermarkets (both New World and Pak'n'Save are supermarket chains) or [7]. Which is not to suggest there isn't also significant off-site processing [8] [9]. Unfortunately I couldn't find stats on what percentage of meat is actually processed largely on site, perhaps partially because of the difficulty defining such things.

Nil Einne (talk) 09:49, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

I live in Austin, Texas, which has only about 6-7% Asian people. And our general purpose grocery store H-E-B sells fresh chicken feet. Just an example, the point is different markets eat different parts of animals, across cultures. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:03, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
According to our article on chicken feet, it's also a component in Mexican cuisine. Matt Deres (talk) 19:39, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Dunno about elsewhere in the world, but in Britain, chicken feet (and other interesting parts like pippik, ie stomachs) are commonly sold by kosher butchers, primarily for use in kosher penicillin. This is missing from our chicken feet article - I'll look for RS. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:38, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Done. Feel free to expand. There are loads of possible sources in Google Books, I just picked one. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:42, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

swear-in or initiation ceremonies[edit]

Are there any notable organizations that have their swear-in or initiation ceremonies take place at late night? Let's say between 10PM and 5AM. Googling seems to show that it's common for frat houses, but I'm only interested in "real" organizations. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 23:57, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

In the original Rover Scouts (members of the Scout Movement over 18 years-old), there was an option to hold an overnight vigil for new members, who would spend the night "in a church or chapel, in the open air, in the Rover Scout Den, or indeed in any place where quiet is assured". The individual was supposed to spend the time considering whether they would be able to live up to their Scout Law and Scout Promise and the "Rover Scout Ideals". See Rover Scouting;, Boy Scouts of Canada, 1952 (pp. 16-18) for details. This sort of quasi-chivalric ceremonial was abandoned by the main UK Scout Association in 1967, but has been retained by some traditional Scouting associations, such as members of the World Federation of Independent Scouts. The mainstream associations in Canada and Australia have both retained Rover Scouting in their programmes, this 1996 article suggests that the Rover Vigil had survived in Canada until that time. Alansplodge (talk) 16:58, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Does the Order of the Arrow still do midnight initiations? --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 00:20, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
According to this, the OA "ordeal" consists of an overnight camp using survival gear plus an outdoors service project, and the candidates are not supposed to talk for the duration. It's an American thing, so I have no inside information. Alansplodge (talk) 18:57, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
From Governorship of Ronald Reagan:
  • He was elected, defeating two-term governor Edmund G. "Pat" Brown by nearly a million votes, and was sworn in on January 2, 1967 at ten minutes past midnight. In 1988, Reagan explained that this time was chosen because his predecessor, Governor Brown, "had been filling up the ranks of appointments and judges" in the days before his term ended. Professor Marcello Truzzi, a sociologist at Eastern Michigan University who studied the Reagans' interest in astrology, regarded this explanation as "preposterous", as the decision to be sworn in at that odd time of day was made six weeks earlier, and was based on advice from Reagan's long-time friend, the astrologer Carroll Righter. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:22, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm confused as to why a fraternity is not a "real organization". --Jayron32 17:41, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Probably scare quotes. Fraternities and sororities are of course real, and actual organizations. They are also in the USA generally associated with binge drinking [10], rape [11], and throwing racist parties [12] [13] [14] -- often knowingly and intentionally doing so.
So I can see why OP doesn't want to consider them as "real" (read, notable, upstanding, reputable) organization. The KKK I suppose also has night time ceremonies, but I get the feeling that's not what OP was interested int. SemanticMantis (talk) 22:19, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
There are 1000s of fraternities and sororities across the US who do not take part in the behaviors mentioned. Of course, that does not show up in the news. Try using a smaller brush when painting pictures like that. MarnetteD|Talk 23:00, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
What he said. --Jayron32 02:40, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

February 19[edit]

Spitting alcohol into someone's face (religion)[edit]

I was just reading a section of a book (Apocalypse 2012 - Lawrence E. Joseph) in which two US Americans went to Guatemala and got involved in a Mayan religious ceremony. At one point, the high priest took a gulp of rum and spat it in their faces. I've seen this before somewhere in films too, although perhaps in fiction or from other areas/religions. What is it called when a priest spits alcohol into someone's face in the course of a religious event, and who (which ethnicities/religions) does it? Thanks, --ZygonLieutenant (talk) 00:01, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Spirits And Spirituality: Alcohol In Caribbean Slave Societies The Akan poured libations and made alcohol offerings to ancestors, spirits, and deities before most undertakings. If the participants had "fetishes" tied to their arms and feet, they would spit the first mouthful of palm wine on them. Failing to do so risked the possibility that they would not be allowed to drink together in peace. Blooteuth (talk) 00:35, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
Spitting alcohol in someone's eyes can be very dangerous to eyesight, so I'd be surprised if this was a normal practice? Eliyohub (talk) 17:15, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
That would depend on the concentration and amount that enters the eyes. The reaction to close eyes, when you see something headed for them, would minimize exposure. StuRat (talk) 20:07, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

February 20[edit]

1989 Yak-40 accident[edit]

Resolved

This Russian article details an accident of Yakovlev Yak-40 (flying from Przhevalsk to Frunze), reportedly in August 1989. Yet I'm not seeing this accident either in ASN or in Airdisaster.ru databases (seemingly it's not this). Googling was also inconclusive (including the exact date). Any ideas? Brandmeistertalk 13:02, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

According to the article you linked to (and, not speaking Russian, I was forced to use google translate), I gather that the "hero pilot" in question was most recently employed in some sort of air traffic control role at Ignatyevo Airport at the time the article was written. There are links to the airport's website on our page, though the page is understandably in Russian only. If you email them, they may be able to put you in touch with him? His "official heroism award" MUST be recorded in some Soviet archive? Eliyohub (talk) 18:26, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
According to the article, he (Andrey Konnov) received the Order "For Personal Courage" from Gorbachev himself for saving 40 passengers. The article says the hydraulic accumulator exploded, stabilizer malfunctioned, the autopilot disengaged and the plane was flown manually. Upon approach they also discovered that the landing gear malfunctioned, so made a belly landing. Very strange... Brandmeistertalk 18:37, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Turns out they probably messed up with the month, it was September per airdisaster.ru. 19:51, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
And as the plane was consumed by the heat, the pilot cried, "Oh, my bakin' YAK! ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:01, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Is there a canonical way of grouping Europeans?[edit]

Is there a canonical way of grouping Europeans? Or is it just a question with whom you want to be associated with (or not)? For example, Germany could be Central, West or Central-East Europe, Italy could be Southern or Central Europe, Poland could be Eastern, or Central Europe.--Hofhof (talk) 23:30, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

See our articles Western Europe, Central Europe and Eastern Europe. The Cold War and the Iron Curtain reinforced a concept of a two-part Europe, as did the Great Schism in earlier times, but the 3-part model has always been popular too. Rojomoke (talk) 23:42, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
The Western part of Europe has for a long time had a North/South division, roughly along Catholic (south) and Protestant (north) lines. One of the more interesting divisions is the Alcohol belts of Europe, culinary anthropologists have noted a butter/olive oil line separating the cooking fat of choice. this article has some interesting ways of splitting up the continent. --Jayron32 02:37, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
From a British perspective, until 1782 the foreign relations responsibilities of the Secretary of State for the Northern Department and the Secretary of State for the Southern Department were divided up as Protestant (Northern) and Catholic and Muslim (Southern). --165.225.80.99 (talk) 10:01, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
If you want meaningful categories, you would have to resort to cultural groups: Romanic, Scandinavian, Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, and Slavic. Not sure whether this will settle the issue. Some would still highlight how different they are from the rest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.252.177.161 (talk) 02:29, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Of course, you missed Celtic/Gaelic in your cultural groupings. And Basque. And Turkic. And Albanian. And Finnic/Ugric. And probably more I'm not remembering yet. --Jayron32 02:37, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Baltic, Greek and Maltese. Wymspen (talk) 08:51, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Hungarian, at least by language more different from its neighbors than Bengali and English are. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:43, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
You guys are producing a linguistic classification, but that may not have been what was originally asked for. AnonMoos (talk) 00:21, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Would a big Venn diagram with lots of circles work for you, OP? Since splitting Europe along any one criterion would give a misleading impression of enormous chalk-and-cheese differences between cultures that actually overlap in lots of other ways. --129.67.116.115 (talk) 10:18, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
The traditional canonical way is to split them into "us" and "them". "We" are vigorous, cleanly, diligent workers, industrious, independent, creative, and of superior racial stock. "They" are dirty poor lazy mongrel foreigner who steal our women (and today, probably, men), and whose soft life in the south has made them decadent weaklings/whose strenuous life in the north has made them uncouth barbarians without any civilisation. This scheme has worked well for ages, so why change it now? It also easily generalised beyond just Europeans. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:41, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Stephan Schulz -- I think nowadays it's often more along the lines of Stereotype-Based European Joking... AnonMoos (talk) 00:21, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
The sentiment was very real when the whole austerity thing was at its height. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 20:23, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Ironically, the north of North America is lefty weaklings and the south of the US is manly men. Sometimes kids pushing 10 in the deep South literally see snow for the first time in their lives and their fathers are hard-working real men (or uncouth, uncultured rednecks). Also, what you call hardening cold in Europe is nothing special in America. Washington DC's at the latitude of the south tip of Sardinia and is built on a swamp near sea level. It has one of the mildest winters in the North yet has reached -20°C and 71cm of snow in one storm. Buffalo, New York (a city of 1.2 million) is pretty low and flat and closer to the equator than the French Riviera. It's reached -29°C and had meters of snow in one storm. Lebanon, Kansas on an endless steppe at 560 meters below the latitude of Istanbul and Ankara has reached -40°C. Iroquois Falls, Canada (a city closer to the equator than Paris and Stuttgart) has reached -58.3°C, colder than Europe's record low (in a village in bnorthwestern Russia near Siberia) It is only 259 meters above sea level. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:58, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

February 21[edit]

Northwestern tribal art[edit]

I debated putting this on the Language Desk but thought here might be appropriate as well.

Artwork such as the logo of the Seattle Seahawks often has a common look to it. Birds heads with curves and some points. The Seahawks article calls it Northwestern tribal art but isn't any more specific. I've also seen this style in other works related to Seattle, e.g. the council patch for the Chief Seattle Council of the BSA which I believe is supposed to be patterned off of orcas. Is there a more precise term for this type of artwork? Do we have an article on it? †dismas†|(talk) 03:53, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Don't know, but I've also seen it on totem poles. StuRat (talk) 03:57, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Northwest Coast art. Some have made parallels with early ancient Chinese art styles... AnonMoos (talk) 06:53, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
I have fixed the link in the Seahawks article. Matt Deres (talk) 17:46, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
And I added a link from the totem pole article, which even uses the same pic. StuRat (talk) 19:27, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks all! †dismas†|(talk) 17:56, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Resolved

Liberal democratic political parties in Italy[edit]

Does Italy have any political parties with a similar platform to the British Liberal Democrats; socially liberal, economically centrist, in favour of globalisation and the EU but also the welfare state? --129.67.116.115 (talk) 10:09, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

List of political parties in Italy would be a good place for you to start your research. --Jayron32 11:24, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
In the European Parliament the UK Lib Dems are part of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe Group - that article lists the parties in each country which are, or have been, part of that group. They may not be identical to the Lib Dems - but they will be close enough to be seen as partners and allies. Wymspen (talk) 11:46, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Note that ALDE is a quite broad group, since it includes both centre-left social liberals (like the Lib Dems) and centre-right classical liberals (like Germany's Free Democratic Party). As Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM says below, the Democratic Party (PD) is probably the most Lib-Dem of the four Italian liberal parties (just as the Lib Dems were formed through the merger of the Liberal Party and the Social Democratic Party, the PD was formed through the merger of the liberal Democracy is Freedom – The Daisy and the social democratic Democrats of the Left), but there's one big difference - the PD draws on the traditions of the Liberal Catholicism, while the Lib Dems are more heavily based on the philosophy of secular thinkers like John Stuart Mill (whose On Liberty is essentially the LD party bible). Smurrayinchester 11:13, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
What about Civic Choice? Our article describes them as "centrist and liberal". --Viennese Waltz 12:13, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Civic Choice is really just the party of Mario Monti - most of its left-wing members have now gone over to PD. I don't think it has an ideology to speak of outside Monti's program. Smurrayinchester 12:40, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Democratic Party (Italy) may be a likely option. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:17, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Eisenhower Contributions to WWII[edit]

I am researching Eisenhower's effect on WWII, but I am unable to find anything that goes very in depth on what he did. I have been researching for around forty five minutes, but I can only find information on his presidency and variations of that he was a five-star general in the army. I need enough to write an entire paper on him, but I haven't found any remarkable content so far. I know that he must have done something, considering he was promoted in rank, but for some reason I cannot find it.

I do not expect anyone to write this paper for me, but I would appreciate a push in the right direction by providing me with a summary of what he did, or some more information and some reliable websites that I can use to write this.

Thank you so much,

EncycloShoe (talk) 17:47, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia's article on Dwight D. Eisenhower (which should not be a direct source for your paper!) does contain a lot of good information on his role in the war. It is extensively referenced, which means that if you follow the footnotes, you can find the original sources for the Wikipedia article (which are sources you SHOULD probably use for your paper). In general, it looks like Stephen Ambrose's two volume biography on Eisenhower is particularly authoritative; the first volume deals extensively with his military career. In the "Further Reading" Section of the Wikipedia article on Eisenhower, there are also another half dozen books on the subject. A nearby library should probably have Ambrose's biography at a minimum, and probably several others of those as well. --Jayron32 17:54, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Thank you so much! EncycloShoe (talk) 17:56, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
One suggestion is to look for books like "Generals of WW2", rather than specifically on Ike, as the later can be expected to focus mainly on his Presidency. An exception would be if you could find a book written on him before his Presidency. (Ike also had a significant role is disbanding the Bonus Army, but it sounds like you want to skip that, too.) StuRat (talk) 21:07, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, he must have done something – exceptional strategist?:

Following his arrival in London, Major General Dwight D. Eisenhower takes command of U.S. forces in Europe. Although Eisenhower had never seen combat during his 27 years as an army officer, his knowledge of military strategy and talent for organization were such that Army Chief of Staff General George C. Marshall chose him over nearly 400 senior officers to lead U.S. forces in the war against Germany. After proving himself on the battlefields of North Africa and Italy in 1942 and 1943, Eisenhower was appointed supreme commander of Operation Overlord–the Allied invasion of northwestern Europe.[15]

Now that would take organisation of a very high order and have its effect Manytexts (talk) 23:44, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for all of the answers. The information/ideas you suggested have been really helpful so far.I was also wondering if you'd consider Eisenhower's best accomplishment as a general getting the Germans to surrender. If not, what did he accomplish as general? My goal is to write about what made him effective as a general, but in order to determine that, I want to look more into his greatest accomplishment, because I am sure his qualities as a general would be displayed there. EncycloShoe (talk) 02:40, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
I think Hitler's suicide just prior to the Russians storming Hitler's bunker is what made the German's surrender. Without Hitler, there was little reason left to fight. As supreme commander, Ike's biggest accomplishment may have been in getting all the allies to work together. StuRat (talk) 03:44, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Unconditional surrender unlike Japan which was a conditional surrender.
Sleigh (talk) 04:59, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Field Marshall Alan Brooke had nothing good to say about Eisenhower in his War Diaries, in fact he was very critical. Labelling him a "chateau general" Brooke wrote that "He literally knows nothing of the requirements of a commander in action", and had "...a very, very limited brain from a strategic point of view". [16] Brooke was especially critical of Eisenhower's "broad front" strategy in the Northwest Europe Campaign of 1944-45. In Brooke's view, Eisemhower's talent lay in persuading people to work together (which perhaps was what was required at the time). Alansplodge (talk) 09:00, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Don't underestimate the value of getting allies to cooperate. That was critical for victory. StuRat (talk) 18:46, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
"Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics." The Supreme commander in Europe had to design and implement a successful invasion of the continent. This was much more about logistics and politics than it was about military strategy. You might wish to concentrate on the buildup required to permit operation Overlord to succeed. -Arch dude (talk) 00:37, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Name for weakest part of a castle?[edit]

Years ago I loaned a book on castle architecture to a friend and... it never came back. It was a small cream colored paperback and the friend's gone too. I've tried q&a via google. Nothing. What's bugging me is, what is the name of the smallest door for going in or going out, unseen. It did say the aperture was also the weakest point in the fort because if anyone from outside was tipped off, they could sneak in to attack the castle from inside. Anyone? thanks in advance, Manytexts (talk) 23:35, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

PS it wasn't "wicket", "man way" or "entry way" because it was quite secret.
Postern? --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:56, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Postern or sally port. Posterns are more usually in an obvious place alongside a main gateway, sally ports often hidden. It's hard to hide a sally port in a medieval curtain wall castle, as a besieging army can usually see all of it fairly well. With later forts in the era of artillery though (see Vauban et al.) a sally port could be concealed in a hidden portion of a bastion, where it couldn't be seen from outside without standing in an obvious line of fire, but which allowed defending troops to mass in the fossé (the ditch outside the inner curtain) unseen.
Neither of these are really weak points though. Some castles were attacked (or inhabitants assassinated) by sneaking a small number of attackers in through a garderobe (toilet) chute, also various drainage channels (although those don't have a specific name).
There are also barbicans, which are semi-isolated gatehouse outworks forming a barrier on the main entrance. They form a first line of defence and even if taken, this doesn't weaken the remaining defences of the castle. Some barbicans were strong from outside, but the towers were open-backed so that if occupied by attackers they were still susceptible to counter-attack from within the castle. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:16, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on this so far. I recall that the "door" was discreet, certainly not a full height door but low, and it was the weakest point because it wasn't locked (unless at night). It was secret so that the castle was vulnerable if anyone on the "inside" revealed its existence to an enemy. It might be something like the "chink" or tiniest gap in someone's armour; definitely an Achilles' heel.Manytexts (talk) 07:25, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that's a "sally port" as Andy linked for you above. "A sally port, on the other hand, is little known by most people. In medieval times, it was an opening or door within a castle perimeter wall which could allow defending troops to quickly exit the castle and mount a surprise attack on those laying siege outside". [17] The pictures in the Wikipedia article are of later artillery forts, but here are the sally ports at Upnor Castle, Sandel Castle, Pontefract Castle and Knaresborough Castle. Alansplodge (talk) 09:15, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

February 22[edit]

Origin of this image[edit]

Can anybody help me find the source of this image: http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/kamehameha-king-of-the-sandwich-islands-dressed-in-a-news-photo/615320068?#kamehameha-king-of-the-sandwich-islands-dressed-in-a-windsor-uniform-picture-id615320068 ?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:39, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I've found it here, in Illustrated London News, January 1844. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:47, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
So copyright-wise, it is in the Public Domain now. So, neither Corbis nor Getty Images can claim copyright on slavishly copied images, Re: as established in US court. Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp..--Aspro (talk) 14:51, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Look! It's on Wikimedia Commons! Kamehameha in council 1844 How did that happen? :-) Alansplodge (talk) 21:17, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for finding it.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:56, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
I had assumed this would have been claimed under Sweat of the brow doctrine, which in Europe allows a company to claim copyright over public-domain works by the act of digitizing them. As Aspro suggests, the US does not recognize such copyrights, so neither does Wikipedia, and that's why it surprised me to find out that both Corbis and Getty Images are American companies. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
It's not surprising to me. Corbis and Getty Images slap a watermark on a lot of obviously PD images and sell it. I wonder who in their right minds will actually pay $575.00 for this.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

The Courtenay Faggot[edit]

Do we know if the Courtenay Faggot has survived and, if so, where it is? If it hasn't survived, do we know when it was lost? Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 06:42, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Acording to Historical memoirs of the town and parish of Tiverton Martin Dunsford (1836) pp. 42-43 the description comes from The Survey of Cornwall by Richard Carew who claims to have actually seen it. As Carew wrote this some time before 1602 and Google can find me no other mention of it, I wouldn't hold your breath :-) Alansplodge (talk) 14:08, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Legitimate, scam or something else?[edit]

In the late 1970s, early 1980s, when I was a kid, I'd read youth magazines. There were these advertisements for a so-called "sweepstakes". At the top, the headline would say "PRIZES OR CASH". Then some items were displayed. At the bottom, they referred an 800 number to call and ask for an operator's name. One part of the fine print said "Operators can only take names and addresses, cannot answer questions". I was too ashamed to show the advertisements to my mom. The reason, I was afraid she'd freak, assuming I'd sign up via phone, which I didn't, of course. Does anybody out there remember what I'm trying to ask about?2604:2000:7113:9D00:DDC4:6A18:4693:B935 (talk) 12:12, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

You are using an IP address that is based in New York City (according to one website) or in the Washington DC metropolitan area (according to another). Was this in NYC, or DC, or somewhere else? 208.95.51.115 (talk) 13:26, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
I original saw the advertisements in San Francisco. But the youth magazines are/were nationally known.2604:2000:7113:9D00:617F:9785:1132:6AE (talk) 13:29, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
There's a list at Category:American children's magazines that may spark your memory as to which magazine it was. It may help someone find the advertisement for you. --Jayron32 14:58, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
The most reasonable way for such a company to make money is by collecting information to build a mailing list of potential youth magazine customers. The prizes would have to be real, to avoid criminal fraud, but the odds of winning them would have to be absurdly low, for such a business model to be profitable. So, if you signed up you'd probably get junk mail, but nothing else. StuRat (talk) 15:32, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Catholic doctrine on humans of other species[edit]

Does the Catholic church hold that Neanderthals and early hominids have souls?144.35.45.46 (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I believe it holds that they were NOT human, but were some form of "soulless" animal. StuRat (talk) 16:32, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Do you have a citation for that, Stu? --Jayron32 16:33, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Right below. StuRat (talk) 16:38, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
I'll note that you did not provide those citations. --Jayron32 16:55, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
In a 1996 text by Pope John Paul II, there was talk of an "ontological discontinuity" in evolution that marked the leap between non-humans and humans, with only humans being able to enter into a full relationship with God [18]. The pope seems to have avoided speculating about where and when during evolution this leap would have taken place, however. But you may have some more luck searching from there. Fut.Perf. 16:34, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
  • There is definitely no shortage of people asking the same question, as you can see by Googling neanderthal catholic, but I haven't seen any official sources yet. Here's an interesting one that goes a bit deeper than just the Neanderthal problem. Matt Deres (talk) 16:39, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
What about the possibility of animals like dogs or elephants or cetaceans having souls? are there Catholic theologians discussing that?144.35.45.79 (talk) 16:56, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Here is a different source from the same website I used above. That website is pretty good, I would use it to search the answers for further questions on Catholic doctrine. --Jayron32 17:08, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
It is so, so, so unfortunate for your question that this turned out not to be real. Matt Deres (talk) 01:33, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Monkeys younger than humans, NO evolution: http://beholy.be/bible1-4.htm "I saw the mother of Semiramis hunting the animal described by Job under the name of behemoth (Job 41 & 42 crocodile?), also tigers, lions, etc. I saw no monkeys in those early times. I saw similar hunts upon the water, upon which idolatry and numerous abominations were generally practiced. The mother was outwardly not so dissolute as Semiramis, but she possessed a diabolical nature with amazing strength and temerity." -- 109.237.140.12 (talk · contribs) (now blocked)
I'm afraid I don't see any link to the doctrine of the Catholic Church in your response. It doesn't meaningfully help the OP to merely link to a Bible verse and then give your own personal interpretation of said verse. --Jayron32 17:54, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Plain as table. Earlier human cannot descent from later animal. -- 109.237.140.12 (talk · contribs) (now blocked)
Whatever that quote is, it certainly isn't from the Bible. It seems to be the mystical visions of a nun Anne Catherine Emmerich though their authenticity is doubtful and they certainly are not to be taken as a statement of catholic doctrine. Wymspen (talk) 18:57, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
It's from the King Gibberish version. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:51, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Does the Catholic Church even believe there were such creatures as Neanderthals? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:33, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Of course they do. Why would you think they wouldn't? --Jayron32 01:32, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
When confronted with skulls obviously different from modern humans, some explanation is needed. If it's just one of two you can claim they were deformed humans, but as the numbers pile up, some other explanation is needed. StuRat (talk) 17:36, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
See Catholic Church and evolution and Pope Francis on evolution. Most mainstream non-American Christian denominations seem to have no problem with evolution. DuncanHill (talk) 17:39, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
Most American ones don't either. Remember that loudness =/= most. --Jayron32 18:07, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm an Independent Baptist, one of the most fundamental denominations in the United States and while some people I know do reject evolution, I will tell you, the Bible says God created the world in seven days, and I believe that to be true, but it does not say how he created the world in seven days. I am open minded to ideas for how God created us, but the idea that God could not have created us through other species isn't really scriptural, and in fact, the Bible says that God created Eve through Adam, which debunks a lot of the "there's no way I descended from a monkey" arguments. That's not to say I endorse the theory of evolution, but I'm not closed minded to it. That said, Roman Catholics are not nearly as adherent to Biblical literalism as my denomination, and other denominations which infamously oppose evolution. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages)Have a blessed day. 03:35, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
The problem is that there are two different creation stories within the first couple of chapters of Genesis. In one, man is created last. In the other, man is created first. You can tell where one story separates from the other by the fact that Elohim is the word for God in the first story, and YHWH is the word for God in the second story. The first story, except for the time line, is not that far removed from scientific theory about the creation of the universe and life on earth. The second story is the Adam and Eve story. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:55, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm just going to leave that at there's a lot of disagreements on the interpretation scripture, hence the existence of different denominations in the first place, hence the reason for the question of whether or not Catholics believe in neanderthals or evolution. I could preach an entire sermon on how science and the Bible and fundamentalism are not as incompatible with science as people (Christians and non-Christians alike) think, but that's an entirely different rabbit hole for another day, since that would take us entirely off-topic. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages)Have a blessed day. 04:10, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Many various degrees of degeneracy as a consequence of sin. An example of going from single perfect to many degenerated: http://beholy.be/bible1-4.htm#1.1.7 -- 109.237.140.12 (talk · contribs) (now blocked)
Again, the OP never asked a question about sin, and you've provided no meaningful information about Catholic Church doctrine. Please stop derailing the discussion. --Jayron32 17:54, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Martin Gardner has an interesting brief discussion of the implications of Catholic doctrines as of 1950 near the end of Chapter 13 of his 1957 book Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science, not mentioning Neanderthals specifically in that context, but concluding that one likely implication is that the first humans with souls were born of parents who did not have souls, which he finds "odd" but not "illogical". (Of course, according to some views of scientific species classification, the first member of homo sapiens would be born to parents who were not homo sapiens -- I think Dawkins discusses this somewhere). AnonMoos (talk) 22:50, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Replace "soul" with "consciousness", and you have an equally odd but probably true statement. MChesterMC (talk) 10:53, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

February 23[edit]

Quotation about a rose girl[edit]

In The Roses of Picardie by Simon Raven a character quotes the lines:

Rose girl bearing your posies
What are you coming to sell?
Is it yourself or your roses,
Or yourself and your roses as well?

I would be interested to know the source of the quotation. It is possible with Raven that this is his own translation from a Classical source. DuncanHill (talk) 00:16, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Google knows only Raven's book. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:04, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
That's why I asked here. DuncanHill (talk) 01:09, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
I did find a French version
Hé, la fille aux roses ! tu es gracieuse comme une rose... Mais que vends tu ? toi ou les roses? ou les deux à la fois?"
... in Il y a rose et rose : les végétaux comme métaphore du corps amoureux dans l'Anthologie grecque by Pascal Luccioni who ascribes it to "Denys le Sophiste". Searching "Dyonisius the Sophist" led me to an English translation in Great Short Poems from Antiquity to the Twentieth Century titled "Rose Girl":
Rose girl, you with the rosy charm,
Pray tell,
Is it your roses, yourself, or both
That you sell?
I have no idea who Dyonisius the Sophist was, but the Greek text appears to be "ἡ τὰ ῥόδα, ῥοδόεσσαν ἔχεις χάριν ἀλλὰ τί πωλεῖς; σαυτήν, ἢ τὰ ῥόδα; ἠὲ συναμφότερα" see Perseus Project ---Sluzzelin talk 01:26, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Oh well done! I was able, with the information you gave, to find another translation in "Odes of Anacreon, Anacreontics, and other selections from the Greek anthology", privately printed by Nathan Haskell Dole, Boston, 1903. The Greek Anthology is exactly the sort of place I should have expected Raven to find juicy snippets in. DuncanHill (talk) 01:38, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
This Dionysius is also known as "Dionysius Sophistes" and according to Willis Barnstone's Ancient Greek Lyrics was "One of many poets, sophists, philosophers and miscellaneous writers of the same name who lived in the Roman Period." DuncanHill (talk) 01:45, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Quotation about apples[edit]

In Morning Star by Simon Raven a character quotes the lines:

As the last apple hangs,
High on the topmost bough,
As the last apple hangs
Which the pluckers forgot somehow -
Forgot it not, nay, but got it not,
For no one could have it till now -

and then breaks off. I would like to know the source of the verse. It sounds a bit Housmanish to me (in mood at least) but I'm pretty sure it's not his. As with my question above, it may be Raven's own translation of a Classical piece. DuncanHill (talk) 00:22, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

[19]; it seems to be Raven's reworking of Dante Gabriel Rossetti's translation of Sappho's poem. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:02, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Ah excellent, thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 01:08, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
The Sappho fragment in question is 105a (Lobel-Page/Voigt), and is derived from a comment by Syrianus. Himerius tells us that Sappho compared the girl to an apple and her bridegroom to Achilles. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Hyman G. Rickover:[edit]

From Hyman G. Rickover:

"Rickover was assigned to the Cavite Navy Yard in the Philippines, expecting to be transferred shortly to the Bureau of Engineering in Washington, D.C. Rickover arrived in Washington after a trip overland across China, Burma, and India, by air across the Mideast to Athens and then London, and by ship to the U.S. "

Any idea why he went the "long" way around instead of just crossing the Pacific? The Pearl Harbor attack didn't happen yet so it should have been possible for an American to travel from the Philippines to the US by a more direct route. ECS LIVA Z (talk) 02:31, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

That bit of the article cites a book by Francis Duncan. In Google Books an earlier edition of the book is available in snippet view. I was able to get this snippet. That URL may not keep working, so I'll quote it:
...Rickover traveled widely, visiting in particular the Dutch East Indies and Indochina, often going third class from one point to another to better observe local life. In May 1939 he left Cavite, traveling across India and Europe to report to Washington...
So the answer would be that he wanted to visit those countries to see how people lived there. (And presumably he was not under orders to take the fastest route.) --76.71.6.254 (talk) 06:29, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Anyway, the only scheduled commercial trans-pacific air service at that time was Pan-Am's "clipper" flying boats, which could take 4 days to go from Manila to San Francisco and cost $950 (quite a bit of money in the 1930s). AnonMoos (talk) 13:08, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Agencies which work with ICE[edit]

Is there a way to find out which law enforcement agencies in the United States cooperate with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, I know the local sheriff where I live does because I've seen "Hold for ICE" in people's arrest reports here, but I'm curious about other agencies in my, area and surrounding areas, not for any particular reason though (I was born in the U.S. to a family which has been in the U.S. for generations, so no need to worry about giving legal advice). 76.2.97.54 (talk) 02:34, 23 February 2017 (UTC) PCHS-NJROTC (Messages)Have a blessed day.

Have a look at Sanctuary city. You'll immediately run into the problem that not all policies are well publicized, there is no comprehensive database on how every law enforcement agency in the country treats suspected illegal immigrants, and there is no agreed-upon definition of "sanctuary city". As our article gets into, a "sanctuary city" could be one that doesn't share information with certain federal law enforcement agencies, one that doesn't inquire as to an arrested person's immigration status, one that only holds suspected felons for transfer to ICE, and cities that will transfer anyone to ICE that ICE requests, but will not use public funding to house suspected illegal immigrants before the transfer takes place. My own jurisdiction gives ICE a time limit to request custody of a suspect and then arrange their transfer to another jurisdiction, or they will treat the suspect the same as they'd treat a citizen. Is my jurisdiction a sanctuary? Talking heads disagree. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:43, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
To add to the confusion, while a good number of these sanctuary "cities" have city police departments, arrested individuals are often booked into jails operated by a county sheriff. For example, the city of Punta Gorda, Florida has its own police department, but PGPD officers take prisoners to the Charlotte County Jail, which is run by the sheriff. Obviously a pro-ICE chief of police would be limited by an anti-ICE sheriff in such situation, but in a vice-versa situation, I suppose a police department could have policies affecting ICE enforcement on the streets, while the sheriff would work with ICE when those police department arrest an immigrant for other crimes. There's yet another layer of confusion when considering places like Liberty University, where there's a campus police department at a college (which I believe is) within the city limits, which is the jurisdiction of the Lynchburg, Virginia Police Department, which is in turn under the jurisdiction of the county sheriff. How does that effect whether or not a city is a "sanctuary city"? It's probably unlikely, but what happens if you have a very pro-ICE campus chief in a county which works with ICE, but within a city which is otherwise considered a "sanctuary city"? Another question I have is, are there any agencies that outright refuse to work with ICE at all, even with convicted felons and such? From what I've read, it seems even San Francisco will deport illegals if they are convicted of serious felonies. 76.2.97.54 (talk) 03:12, 23 February 2017 (UTC) PCHS-NJROTC (Messages)Have a blessed day.
San Francisco is a bit weird. They will cooperate in the detainment of illegals who are also felons, but only if said felon is currently suspected of a new crime. That is, if the person was convicted of a felony, served his time, and is not wanted for anything else, SF will not hold them. They will also detain anyone suspected of a felony. New Orleans has one of the most extreme policies I've seen, barring nearly all cooperation with ICE, but the law still permits the police to participate in the case of anyone suspected of a felony, and "matters of public safety". Their police officers are even explicitly ordered to ignore warrants from ICE unless it is for a felony. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:38, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
I thinnk PCHS is making a mistake here. In the U.S., city police departments are not normally subordinate to county police departments or sheriff's office. County sheriff offices generally have primary jurisdiction over enforcing laws in unincorporated areas outside of city limits, while city police departments have primary jurisdiction for enforcement within the city limits. This is explained at Sheriffs in the United States, you can see that in almost every state, the primary responsibility for the sheriff's office is to police areas that aren't covered by municipal departments. It is broadly true that in many states all sworn law enforcement officers have state-wide jurisdiction, but where questions of conflicts occur, the city police department would have primacy over the county sheriff's office within the city limits and the county sheriff's office would have primacy outside the city limits. They are parallel and equivalent organizations (i.e. same 'level' on the org chart) with different geographical areas they are responsible for. For the specific case they gave, that of Lynchburg, Virginia this is even MORE of a mistake, because Lynchburg is not part of any county at all, so there isn't even a county sheriff that would hypothetically be over it anyways. --Jayron32 15:03, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
In some places, including San Francisco, the city and county are consolidated to one degree or another, and in at least some consolidated locations, including Indianapolis, the sheriff's office and city police have been merged into a single jurisdiction. In some states, the sheriff's office has countywide jurisdiction, including in municipalities that have their own police departments, although of course the sheriff's office wouldn't do as much work in such a municipality. This is true of my native Ohio, for example, where the sheriff has primacy countywide. As far as Lynchburg — we have a sheriff's office here, although the city police do most of the law-enforcement work, and like all of Virginia's other cities, yes we're independent of the surrounding counties and their officials. Our campus indeed is in the city; I'm not entirely sure what the relationship between city and university police is, and while the university police have a little jurisdiction off campus (they enforce speed limits and street-crossing on the city-owned streets at the school associated with TRBC, for example), it's quite limited; you'd never see them downtown, and when I witnessed a low-speed car accident just off campus some months ago, we had to wait a good while for city police to arrive, even though the university police were much closer. I expect that they have to bow to the city police if there's some sort of conflict. Nyttend (talk) 16:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
It's all kind of a silly distinction anyways: In areas with multiple jurisdictions, it's really up to individual department policy as to whether they will use their department resources to enforce ICE directives. If a county sheriff decides that his officers won't kick in any doors to deport someone who doesn't have the correct paperwork, but a city police chief decides that he will direct his officers to do the same, even if both departments have overlapping jurisdiction in a particular city, there's not much one department could do to force the other department to do anything. The County Sheriff can't force the city cops to obey his directives, and the Police Chief can't force the sheriff's officers to enforce his. You would just have a case of one department following one set of priorities and another following a different set of priorities, but one cannot force the other to obey policies from outside of its own chain of command. It would be like Google passing a company rule and expecting Samsung employees to have to follow it. --Jayron32 17:24, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
But there are some big difference between Google/Samsung and police departments. For one thing, a state could grant the sheriff authority over a municipal department, and if municipal officers refused to follow the sheriff's orders, they might be eligible for legal penalties. If I remember rightly, in Ohio the sheriff has this authority; one could interpret ORC §311.07 (B) as giving him this kind of authority, although I don't have a clue whether such a clause has been litigated and gotten judicial rulings on this kind of question. For another thing, when it comes to legal matters, law enforcement tends to have greater influence in the state capitol than does the average citizen; if municipal police and the sheriff's office each makes a big stink about the other's decision and refusal to cooperate, it's quite plausible that local legislators will sponsor legislation that would set legal standards of some sort and remove or restrict the wiggle room. Nyttend (talk) 19:31, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

NATO defence budgets[edit]

So we keep hearing how most of Europe is freeloading off the American defence budget. Is there a list I can see of countries which currently don't spend the NATO requirement of 2% GDP, but have announced firm plans to start doing so? --79.32.133.5 (talk) 09:34, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, see NATO Public Diplomacy Division - Defence Expenditures of NATO Countries (2009-2016) and look at page 2. However, this does not show who is planning to increase their defence spending. This article says that the countries which have increased their budgets since 2014 "are mostly in eastern Europe, where the threat from Russia is felt most keenly. These countries also tend to have relatively small economies by NATO standards. Estonia and Poland now meet the target, and Latvia and Lithuania are on course to do so". A simpler graph is here. Note that Canada is not a European country but significantly underspends. Alansplodge (talk) 11:09, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
[Edit Conflict] Such data is compiled by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute amongst other organisations. Links from that article may lead you to what you're looking for. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.203.118.169 (talk)
(EC) Depends what you mean by "firm plans". [20] mentions both France and Germany's intentions. If the Germany one seems a bit unclear, [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] mentions more on how Germany is currently doing. Technically you could argue that any country which has consistently increased their military budget in the past few years and said they intend to continue to do so has a plan, even if it may not mean they'd meet the 2024 target. Nil Einne (talk) 11:23, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Alan - " Iceland has no armed forces" from your first document gave some hope for humanity and really made my day ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:46, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
You don't want to mix with their coast guards though, see Cod Wars. Alansplodge (talk) 19:02, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

How do people always have a constant supply of energy to power their world?[edit]

Most of the time, people have a constant supply of energy to power their world. If each lightbulb in the city requires a specific amount of energy to power it, then how do people know how much energy to supply? Can the demand for energy surpass the supply of energy? What if the energy is captured and stored and sent to individual homes, but individual homes are not using it? Will the energy be wasted or transferred to another house? 66.213.29.17 (talk) 17:19, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Start at the Wikipedia titled Electrical grid and follow it around to learn more. --Jayron32 17:25, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Maybe it's in the article, but I didn't see it. To paraphrase in part the OP's questions, what if the total amount of energy used during one time frame (minute or day, say) is less than the amount produced? What happens to the excess? Loraof (talk) 18:53, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
In that case, Load balancing (electrical power), which is a concept central to the Electrical grid, and which the OP, who I presume is quite intelligent, would have found easily after clicking around a bit, would have soon appeared on his internet capable device of choice, and he would have learned what he needed to know. From there he can follow links to articles such as Load following power plant, Base load, Peaking power plant, Pumped-storage hydroelectricity, etc. etc. If after being unsatisfied with the quality of Wikipedia's coverage of these topics, he could then seek out additional sources as he now would have gotten the vocabulary to search for outside of Wikipedia. But because he's a smart, intelligent person who doesn't need to have his hand held, I didn't feel the need to do all of that. --Jayron32 19:01, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for holding my hand, Jayron. Please try to be nice to people while helping them. Loraof (talk) 20:49, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

35 U.S. Code $121 - Divisional application[edit]

It is a real life situation. An individual applied for a US patent with USPTO office and got a response claiming that the application in fact contains two independent inventions with an advice to file a divisional application. The two parts, that are averred to be independent, are very unequal in size, the first part is about 30 pages and the second part is about 2, so the first part contains much of prolegomena, necessary to understand both parts logically. We are reading the section of USPTO code [27] mentioned in the headline and we cannot understand the phrase: "A patent issuing on an application with respect to which.... shall not be used as a reference...." What kind of reference? He considers it awkward to repeat the narrative of prolegomena in the second application. A reference to the first one made in the body of the second one would be more appropriate but he is not sure if it would fall under the above restriction or not.

The examiner is using the term "divisional application(s)." Which application is divisional? The first one (after the break up), the second one (after the break up) or both?

Can he file a continuing divisional application?

Thanks --AboutFace 22 (talk) 20:35, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Ad hominem attacks[edit]

If ad hominem attacks are considered so flawed in debates or arguments, why do people - even noted debaters and rhetoricians - still use them?--WaltCip (talk) 20:57, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Because most people are convinced by rhetoric, not by logic. Wymspen (talk) 22:10, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Because they still work - the audience is easily fooled as they're not trained in rhetoric.
Because they don't work, but the speakers are angry and untrained in rhetoric themselves. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:38, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
They do work, because demonizing the opponent is often what the audience wants to hear. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:44, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Less opposition to Donald Trump[edit]

We don't provide political speculation, predictions and opinions on this board. Fut.Perf. 22:39, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If Trump were to ever be successful at tackling the unemployment rate, would there be much less opposition to him among the general population? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uncle dan is home (talkcontribs) 22:19, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Obama lowered the unemployment rate from 10 to 5 percent, but it didn't do the Democrats any good. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:36, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
  • What do you mean by "tackling" the unemployment rate? Unemployment (whatever the headlines say) isn't a major problem in the US at present. It is relatively low, and has been falling over the last years from its rapid doubling between 2008 to 2010. www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate It's simplistic to credit presidents for what mostly happens to them during their presidency, but there's a coincidence there with the Obama terms. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:37, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Zero-sum games[edit]

I'm looking for sources on this.

Elections are often improperly cited as examples of zero-sum games. Unless the election enforces mandatory voting and utilizes a plurality voting system, it is non-zero-sum.[citation needed]

Benjamin (talk) 23:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC)