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July 29[edit]

The world's northernmost medieval building[edit]

Are there any medieval buildings north of Trondenes Church? --Ghirla-трёп- 09:33, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

There "is" Vardøhus Fortress, far to the east and north, established in 1300. A first church in Vardø was established in 1307 [1] by Archbishop Jørund av Nidaros; Vardø is the easternmost town of Norway. The original buildings (earth, stone, wood, later brick) did not survive the climate. Looking only superficially I found nothing else; Steinvikholm Castle is much more to the south, near Trondheim. This site says that stone building came to Norway after the Norse left paganism, it's indeed a whole set of technologies, and Steinvikholm is southern to Trondenes. It requires more resources for building a fortress than for a simple church, and the time that Steinvikholm was built, the Middle Ages were already mostly passed. --Askedonty (talk) 13:35, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
@Askedonty:, I don't think demolished structures are of importance. On the Russian side of the border, neither Kola nor Pechenga Monastery has kept its 16th-century structures. The Solovetsky Monastery lies somewhat to the south. These lands don't benefit from the Gulf Stream, so the climate is even more harsh. --Ghirla-трёп- 07:22, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
@Ghirlandajo: then there is none, as far as I'm able to find. At the same latitude than Solovetsky Monastery ( 65°N) stays the northernmost medieval church of Sweden, the Lutheran church in Kalix in Norrbotten County. Regarding Finland according to our article Architecture of Finland no medieval wooden church of Finland remains, and there is no indication that any kind of other medieval building remains north to Olavinlinna (61.51°N). Finally regarding Norway, this IV European Symposium for Teachers of Medieval Archaeology report, 1999 for example shows a map of the medieval Churches known by textual references, in Northern Norway: Vågan, Trondenes, Lenvik, Tromsø, Loppa, Tunes, and Vardø: none surviving northern to Trondenes is mentioned elsewhere, much less, any occurrence of a castle of course. --Askedonty (talk) 17:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The truth in Nazi germany[edit]

George Orwell (the author of 1984) has said that "Nazi theory indeed specifically denies that such a thing as "the truth" exists. ... The implied objective of this line of thought is a nightmare world in which the Leader, or some ruling clique, controls not only the future but the past. If the Leader says of such and such an event, "It never happened" – well, it never happened. If he says that two and two are five – well, two and two are five. This prospect frightens me much more than bombs". I'm interested in that way to manage the truth (1984 is very illustrative, but I want to know about the real case that Orwell spoke about, before actually writing that book). Do we have some article about it? Cambalachero (talk) 12:57, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be a reference to the Führerprinzip. Neutralitytalk 13:34, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
The effort to re-write the past to suit current objectives is covered by Historical_revisionism_(negationism). SemanticMantis (talk) 17:27, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
The idea of a subjective truth over-riding an objective reality seems to have been a bit of a theme of Orwell's (as well as Borges). It was most vividly expressed in 1984, but Orwell also wrote about it in essays such as The Prevention of Literature, which should really be seen as working drafts of the themes of 1984.
In answer to your question, if you read the The Prevention of Literature you will see that he accuses the USSR and its propagandists of distorting the historical record: The fog of lies and misinformation that surrounds such subjects as the Ukraine famine, the Spanish civil war, Russian policy in Poland [...]. If you want to do some more reading, I would suggest The Devils' Alliance by Roger Moorhouse, which sets out at some length the ideological contortions that the British Communist Party went through in first opposing Hitler's invasion of Poland; then supporting it; and, post 1941, opposing it again. (talk) 15:36, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Michel-Gaspard Coppenrath[edit]

Can someone help me find other sources that talk about the descent, early life, or parents of Michel-Gaspard Coppenrath and Hubert Coppenrath? I recently found this which call them demi (half Polynesian) and wonder if more details exist out there.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:29, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Can you access this page on ? The two brothers' father is named Clément: here on "ancestry", his date of birth is given as 1 May 1888; the French Wikipedia states "approximately 1885": [2]. --Askedonty (talk) 20:10, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks!--KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:06, 29 July 2015 (UTC)


Where is Papaoa in respect to Arue, French Polynesia?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:24, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

According to the government of Arue, the district of Papaoa was renamed Arue on the accession of Pōmare I. According to the French Wikipedia article fr:Arue (Polynésie française), Papaoa was the name of the royal estate there. Elsewhere, though, I've seen reference to a "quartier" within Arue called Papaoa. This historic map labels a specific location as Papaoa. It seems to be the same location labeled in Google Maps as "Papava" (probably a typo). It seems to correspond to the present-day location of the Radisson Plaza Resort and the neighborhood just to its west. Marco polo (talk) 20:27, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
[It is not to be confused with Papamoa.—Wavelength (talk) 21:05, 29 July 2015 (UTC)]

Entering the UK from France as Illegal immigrant[edit]

If they are already in France, why take the risk (not only of being caught but also of dying) to sneak into the UK? What makes France or other EU countries like Germany or Denmark less attractive? It seems to be a mass phenomenon, with hundreds and hundreds waiting in Calais for the best moment. --Yppieyei (talk) 22:07, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

BBC News: Would Calais migrants really be better off in the UK? Fgf10 (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
One thing we can be sure of: They're not fleeing to the UK because they think the food is better. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:10, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Are we sure? They could be sick of frogs' legs and snails and pining for some spotted dick and bangers & mash.Nelson Ricardo (talk) 00:45, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
This coming from the country that has spay-on cheese? Fgf10 (talk) 08:21, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
See the very good answer with references provided by Nanonic when this was asked on July 4: [3]. (talk) 18:43, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
I've added an additional comment to the discussion Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2015 July 4#Do illegal migrants have good reason to head for the UK, as opposed to other stable countries? Nil Einne (talk) 18:08, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

July 30[edit]

Is it still called religious conversion?[edit]

I read a synopsis of the novel on Sparknotes, just so that could give be some background information before I started reading the actual novel. The Sparknotes synopsis says that Crusoe has a religious conversion. But when I read the novel, I felt that there was no way that could happen. The narrator Crusoe automatically reads like a Christian narrator. He worries about his disobedience against his parents in times of trouble and when times are good, he forgets his troubles. He assumes that the world was created, presumably by God. He knows that Providence is with him and can work against him. I don't get it. It's pretty obvious that he is raised Christian and is probably a practicing Christian since the beginning of the novel. Maybe loss of faith and then regain of faith count as a conversion from Defoe's perspective, while assuming a Christian worldview since birth does not make one a Christian? Similarly, I have read and seen contemporary narratives, such as the movie In the name of God (2014), and it always seem that even though the protagonist is portrayed as an atheist in the beginning, it feels like the protagonist has been Christian all his life during his confession of faith. It seems as if being reared as a Christian doesn't count as a religious conversion-at-birth, even though I'd assume that religious conversions can be accurately applied to individuals without any Christian background who later adopt Christian belief, not cradle Christians who lose faith and regain them. (talk) 04:27, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps changing denominations counts as a conversion?Void burn (talk) 05:14, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
On top of that, C.S. Lewis has been described as a "convert" to Christianity, even though if you read his biography, he just lost his faith and regained it - the same branch too. Apparently, that is treated as a religious conversion. I am very suspicious about the use of word "atheism" to describe someone's life, especially if that someone is raised as a Christian and has never completely lost his childhood worldview or sensibilities. (talk) 09:15, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
As I understand it (and it's been a while since I read it, and I probably read a badly translated bowdlerised edition - it's usually treated as a YA adventure story in Germany), Crusoe converts from the normal default ("yes, sure, I'm Christian, I go to Church every other Christmas, and I try not to steal my neighbours car") to a deep inner Christianity. Of course, his original position is 18th century, i.e. culturally more Christian than the default today, but what matters is his inner journey in which his faith becomes meaningful and he gains real trust in his religion. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
That sounds more like spiritual growth and formation to me than a religious conversion. I think Sparknotes is biased. Sparknotes has written on the Bible too, and its character analyses, though interesting, are highly suspicious. I always wonder what theological tradition the author follows. I wonder if there is a "secular" interpretative tradition. (talk) 10:54, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Stephan is correct. This isn't spiritual growth and formation; it's a radical transformation of the character. There's a huge difference between "statistical" Christianity, i.e. the normal default that Stephan summarises, and what Defoe would consider true Christianity, i.e. one's life based on the Christian faith, following an event that theologians call regeneration. Nyttend (talk) 12:34, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Did OP read the freely accessible academic paper on conversion in Defoe's life and works, "The Conversion of Robinson Crusoe", linked to here just one week ago, WP:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2015_July_23#Conversion_to_Christianity_in_the_1700s_-_Robinson_Crusoe? Far better than SparkNotes. -- Paulscrawl (talk) 18:10, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Looking for the title of a science fiction novel published in the last 10-15 years[edit]

Hello, I used to work at a book store from 2006-2011, in that time I read in publishers Weekly of a science fiction novel, (near future, semi-dystopian/cyberpunk). The story was about a corporate driver in the UK, where on the motorways, executives would engage in road combat to defend their position in a company, or alternatively attempt to take the job of another executive.

I do not have the title or author, but strongly feel that it was published in the mid-late 00s.

Any assistance would be appreciated, I've been trying to relocate it for over five years now. (talk) 05:59, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Market Forces by Richard Morgan. – iridescent 06:12, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. Thanks. You beat about 14 RL librarians in Pittsburgh in less than 15 minutes. Much thanks. (talk) 06:48, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I imagine this is one of those "either you've read it or you haven't" situations, since it's not particularly well known. FWIW the only bits that are decently written are the action scenes and the rest is a dull and plodding attempt to be "satirical" which works about as well as Mission Earth. – iridescent 07:01, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Who said "A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth"?[edit]

--IEditEncyclopedia (talk) 13:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

According to "q:Joseph Goebbels#Misattributed" it has been misattributed to Joseph Goebbels. Gabbe (talk) 13:24, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
It was Mark Twain. It was Mark Twain. It was Mark Twain. Seriously though, it wasn't Mark Twain. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:00, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
You can't prove a negative. You can't prove a negative. You can't prove a negative. You can't prove a negative. Contact Basemetal here 14:03, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Vladimir Lenin gets credit often enough, for a lie that's told often enough. I say he didn't speak English. Boris Zhukov certainly does. It was probably him. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:13, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
Try not to confuse it with the big lie. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:18, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
Lenin actually did speak English and several other languages, although I don't know how often he went about giving pithy quotations in a non-native language. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Figured he might have, so went with "I say...". That's one way to spread misinformation without lying. Not condoning it, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:11, July 31, 2015 (UTC)
Then that comes down to an expression of his opinion. Everyone has the right to express their opinion. If you think that that just masks or enables the spread of misinformation ... well, that would be your opinion, to which you have a perfect right. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:56, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
You've lost me. Was Lenin expressing an opinion, or Bishop? I meant what I said was a half-lie. Even if I have the right, it was still the wrong thing to do. Half-wrong, at least. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:02, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Measuring the Effectiveness of the Civil Rights Act of 1964[edit]

I am working on a project on the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and I want to be able to compare the effectiveness of it in combating workplace discrimination with how well it did after it was amended in 1972, but I am having a hard time finding any good publicly available numbers to quantify it. Is there anywhere I can find records of something like that? Maybe the total number of Civil Rights lawsuits per year or something? Rabuve (talk) 15:47, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

You could dig into Bureau of Justice Statistics and Bureau of Labor Statistics. You might compare unemployment rates for various groups protected under the law such as women or ethnic groups, or rates of workplace harassment? (talk) 19:53, 30 July 2015 (UTC)


If banks block suspicious transactions especially abroad, why are many scams while on holiday where large sums of money are taken often not blocked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:12, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Who says so? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:51, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Who were the Northallerton glasshouse mutineers?[edit]

This story talks about a "glasshouse riot" at Northallerton Prison in 1946. It says that (at least some of) the rioters were from "a unit which had mutinied in Italy". I'm interested to know details of that initial mutiny (what happened in Italy, not Yorkshire). The best I've found is this Glasgow Herald story, which lists 11 soldiers on trial at Catterick Garrison for their part in the riot. But that lists their regiments, and they were drawn from a motley assortment of various British Army regiments, not a single unit. Can anyone find a source which would explain what happened in Italy? -- Finlay McWalterTalk 18:59, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I've never heard of the riot, but the Salerno Mutiny of September 1943 might be pertinent. Alansplodge (talk) 21:36, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Just noting that "a unit which had mutinied in Italy" does not necessarily mean that any of the soldiers in the riot were also part of the mutiny. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 00:49, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Picpus Fathers[edit]

If priests are called "Picpus Fathers," what are non-priest members of the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary called?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:29, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

The French article states that the name of the order as a whole is the "pères et religieuses des Sacrés-Cœurs de Picpus", which would imply in this case "père" is not restricted to the ordained priests. I would ask whoever stated in the English article that only priests in the order are known as "fathers" to explain that. In any case that claim is not sourced. Contact Basemetal here 19:43, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Non-priest members of this order are known as "brothers" (and "sisters"), as is typical of religious orders.[1]


Yes but you can call a brother, nun and priest alike of the Jesuit order a Jesuit (same for Franciscan) but for the Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, there isn't a descriptor that group all members brother, nun and priest alike.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:32, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

July 31[edit]

Segregation in the United States.[edit]

1943 Colored Waiting Room Sign.jpg

I have a few segregation-related questions, as I am studying United States history.

1.If you were Asian (i.e Japanese, Chinese) in a southern town with segregation, would you use the White or Coloured drinking fountains/waiting rooms and so on?

2. Did southern whites generally dislike and hate African Americans during segregation, or was there any degree of respect/friendship?

3. Were they any black supporters of 'Separate, but equal'?

Thank you. --Oaapaæraersk (talk) 16:37, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

  • 2) Yes and no to all parts of this question for any given value of "southern" "white" and "African American". That is to say, given the millions of Americans living in the Southern U.S. during the "Jim Crow" era means that you will find a non-zero number of white people who had very good relationships with African Americans, up to and including actively campaigning for civil rights.
I hope that all helps. --Jayron32 16:51, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
There's a book about question #1 that you might enjoy. I don't have it, but you can find the introduction online [4]. For your second question, it's a mistake to assume that bigotry goes along with hatred or dislike. Even some of the most infamous defenders of segregation, like George Wallace, often had positive relationships with individual African American people. --Amble (talk) 18:55, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
In regards to question #1, there is an interesting discussion here: .
In the Jim Crow south, Asians were an afterthought if considered at all because they were virtually non-existant due to discriminatory U.S. immigration laws & migration patterns. Local communities would react to the rare Asian visitor in an ad hoc way. Some Asians would choose to use "Negro" facilities to be on the safe side but others would use "White" facilities without consequence other than gawking by the locals who may have never seen an Asian person before.
One interesting case I can think of was Ahmet Ertugun, who lived in segregated Washington, DC in his youth as son of the Turkish ambassador. At the time, police would arrest white people who tried to visit Black clubs. Ertugun was generally considered White but with enough ambiguity to allow him to cross the color line and see many jazz and blues acts that other whites couldn't see. This familiarity with African-American artists was instrumental in his creation of Atlantic Records. --D Monack (talk) 21:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Xingjiang eastern border[edit]

Has the border between Xingjiang and the rest of China (excluding Tibet) changed after 1945? -- (talk) 16:46, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Seems that it did. Until 1949 the East Turkestan Republic had fluid borders. The current administrative unit was established in 1955. According to our article Bayingolin Mongol Autonomous Prefecture, this area was merged into Xinjiang in 1960. --Soman (talk) 18:53, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Does any of those musical instruments exist?[edit]

Does any of those instruments exist:
Electric Bass trumpet
Electric Alto Clarinet
Electric Tenox Sax

My google fu is failling this time and this is why I am asking here.
Also I am not asking about Wind controller or whateaver. (talk) 17:12, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Since it seems you have excluded any form of electronic synthesizer controlled by a sensor in a mouthpiece (wind controller), leaving only brass instruments (the alto clarinet and saxophone actually woodwinds) sounded by some electrically powered mechanism other than a player's lungs, I would have to say no, they don't exist. Obviously there are various theatre organs that have brass horns controlled by valves, driven by a central source of air pressure, and intended to mimic the single-player instruments, but I don't have the sense that's what you mean. General Ization Talk 20:47, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
What would an electric wind instrument that WASN'T an EWI or a wind controller do that the OP is looking for? It seems to me that the question is not answerable as written, because the OP is asking "Are there electronic wind instruments that aren't electronic wind instruments". It makes no sense to me... --Jayron32 23:59, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
The instruments would be able to output to a headphone allowing me to play whateaver the hell comes into my mind and no one else would be able to complain. (talk) 15:36, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure if such things exist, but just to clarify the question: In the case of the electric trumpet, are you looking for a mouthpiece and "valves" where some electronic gizmo interprets the "buzz" or airstream through the mouthpiece and the position of the valves to give pitch, tone, and volume? In the case of the electric clarinet/sax are you looking for a mouthpiece with a (non-squeeky) reed and finger holes/levers where some electronic gizmo interprets the "bite" on the reed, air pressure, and finger positions to give pitch, tone, and volume? (Both without actually "sounding", although they probably wouldn't be completely silent, but electronic pianos with headphones are not completely silent either.)--Wikimedes (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
"Electric bass trumpet" is pretty darned specific; bass trumpet is quite the rare bird. Anyway, "Yamaha silent brass" solves your problem for everything from a trumpet to a tuba. --jpgordon::==( o ) 23:42, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Are paper books cheaper now in real terms than pre-Internet?[edit]

Observation #1: A 2015 paperback World Almanac has $13.99 printed on it (US dollars). That seems pretty cheap. (I guess they could've printed some with a higher cover price for earlier sale as the new one comes out in like 4 months but that's what it said yesterday).

Observation #2: I got a very new (2016) Rand McNally Road Atlas for $14.99 plus tax last July 21 but paid $11.99 plus tax for a similar atlas in fall of '01 — or $16.16 inflation adjusted. So it was obsolete by over 3.3 months if they follow Rand McNally's updating schedule and was still more expensive. (It was spiral bound instead of stapled and had a thicker cover though, however Rand McNally® is the most popular brand for decades and this was an American Map®).

Have book prices in general slowed and lagged inflation at some point after the Internet?

Some books would benefit more than others of course. Copyrighted fiction probably didn't benefit as much, those e-reader things are only what half a decade old and the e-fiction business model hasn't been popular for long. Maybe more commodity-like nonfiction like the World Almanac or especially dictionaries have inflated the least? Anything that can be found free on the Internet for the last decade or two is probably doing pretty good now if you're buying. Could real prices continue to fall? I don't see why book use might not slowly decrease over the next olympiads and decades. Eventually it might be hard to find some kinds of books, right? Some will become unprofitable to print unless prices rise, road atlases will no longer be sold not only in drug stores but also in bookstores, and encyclopedia sets will become an endangered species? I can't imagine what would happen when anyone who remembers 2025 is dead. Paper might be a steampunk chic market by then.

I guess the US dollar is strong now, but the new atlas is American and I think I would've remembered if the old atlas had a strange foreign postcode in it so it's not because American Map® got unusually little of the home currency per dollar. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Back in the early eighties before my first job $3.15 minimum wage I had a $5.00 weekly allowance. This usually allowed me to buy two or three paperbacks at $.95 or $1.95 each. Milk and gas were about $1.50/gallon. I was shocked when I first had to pay $2.95 for a paperback. Nowadays the exact same books that cost $.95 or $1.95 cost $5.99 to $7.99 each, while gas and milk are around $3/gallon. There was a steady increase in the cost of paper in the US over the 1990's which led to a large increase in the prices of magazines and newspapers as well. This was widely remarked upon, with the daily NYT more than tripling in price that decade--and not due to loss of revenue to the internet. μηδείς (talk) 01:10, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Undoubtedly books are cheaper now than in my youth; and I'd suggest three reasons: (1) in the UK, the collapse of the Nett Book Agreement, which was a price-fixing cartel designed to protect the interests of publishers and booksellers by keeping book prices high; (2) the increase in general wealth, which has increased at a faster rate than the inflation rate of books, making them proportionately cheaper as a percentage of nett disposable income; and, (3) the advent of the Information Age and, in particular,, which has, alternately, reduced book costs by dispensing with High Street bookshops; created a marketplace for secondhand books and books published on demand; and supplied alternatives to traditional, book-based sources of information - both in purchasing books (who buys a set of encyclopaedias nowadays?) and book-based research (most people are familiar with searching through Google).
Empirically, as a child, one hardly ever bought hardback books due to their expense. Now, I find that I typically prefer to buy hardbacks as I consider their cost, on an Amazonian 'nearly new' basis, quite reasonable. Apparently, in the UK at least, more books are now sold annually than ever before.
I don't think that book usage will fall in the future, the dystopian views of Fahrenheit 451 and 1984 notwithstanding. Books are still more useful than computers for detailed research (including annotation) and as textbooks. What might change (decrease) is the concept of reading for pleasure, as we find our spare time crowded out by distractions such as the use of the internet and computer games. (talk) 18:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
I know this is completely off-topic, but what in the world is with the nett thingy? You used it twice and had to use a pipe to do it, so it was obviously on purpose, but it seems an odd thing to insist on. Wiktionary actually finds it, which is a bit surprising; to me it looked like a simple misspelling. --Trovatore (talk) 21:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
It is the traditional English spelling (as opposed to American usage), used to distinguish between 'the bottom line' and any thing reticulated, or decussated, at equal distances, with interstices between the intersections. (talk) 19:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Since 178.42's from enlightened Europe he might not realize that working class real household income in the US has tread water from the 70s to the Great Recession, and that's only because women started working. You have to get to know a woman enough that you move into the same place and share incomes just to tread water. Then the Great Recession happened and I believe working class real incomes fell. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:06, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Apostasy in Catholicism[edit]

I was reading apostasy, and I noticed that the punishment for apostasy is death. Does that mean Catholic apostates can be burned at the stake or tortured? What counts as apostasy in Catholicism today? How does the modern Catholic church treat apostates? (talk) 18:43, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Maybe in Henry VIII's time, but not now. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:19, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
The scores were Henry VIII: 63 (declared after becoming a Protestant himself), Mary I: 284. See List of Protestant martyrs of the English Reformation for the full match statistics. Alansplodge (talk) 20:40, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
I found The Catholic Encyclopedia which says: "Today the temporal penalties formerly inflicted on apostates and heretics cannot be enforced, and have fallen into abeyance. The spiritual penalties are the same as those which apply to heretics... Apostates, with all who receive, protect, or befriend them, incur excommunication, reserved speciali modo to the Sovereign Pontiff." Alansplodge (talk) 20:49, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
(e/c) See also Separation of church and state. Even in countries where the head of state is also head of a church (like the United Kingdom), the state runs things like the justice system while the church looks after the spiritual well-being of its adherents. (Well, mostly, anyway - there are still some exceptions in Mesopotamia and Afghanistan. In North Korea, you can get shot just for being a member of a church.) Some would say that excommunication or anathema (a punishment meted out by a church) are far worse than death (whether enforced by execution, or by natural causes). Indeed, death through martyrdom is considered the Parnassus of human achievement in many places. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:52, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Of course, the problem with excommunication being the maximum punishment for anathma is that it is a fairly hollow punishment... at lest from the point of view of the person being "punished". It is sort of like quitting your job, and then hearing that your boss replied: "He quit?... can't have that... he's fired!" Blueboar (talk) 16:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Were Hercules and Sampson the same guy?[edit]

Based on the same real person, I mean? I've heard that suggested before. -- (talk) 19:26, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The Samson article discusses this to some extent. They shared some traits, but their specific stories don't overlap much. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:49, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, Hercules was born of a mortal woman and the god of the sky, performed miracles, was betrayed by someone he loved, and then died in terrible agony only to ascend up to heaven to be with his father. Sounds like someone else from the bible... (talk) 21:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Except Jesus was more the intellectual type. Although coming from a blue-collar upbringing, He was probably fit. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
There's sort of a ship of Theseus issue here. There are two different names for these characters, with two different ethnicities, so clearly something is different about them. If there ever were original "real people", maybe they even had those names... maybe not. How much of the story about them can be replaced by bards who cut-and-paste parts of one tale to the other before they become "the same"? How much of the story can be changed for dramatic effect before it is about someone "different"? Wnt (talk) 11:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
A special point is that they have been written. -- (talk) 15:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Franco-New brunswick community and acadian community[edit]

Is there a difference between the Franco-New Brunswick community and the Acadian community in New Brunswick or they are the same? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:56, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

"Franco-New Brunswick community" is not a term in common use so I don't know what you mean by it. This will give you some information on French-speaking New Brunswickers. (talk) 19:49, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Online sources for pre-1945 UK parliamentary by-elections[edit]

I've got sources for post 1945 by-elections, and I'm happy sourcing these articles. I'd like pre 1945 articles. Are there online sources for these, or failing that subscription services open to Wikipedians?

JASpencer (talk) 21:23, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

If they exist, User:BrownHairedGirl will know where to find them. – iridescent 21:31, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
While you are waiting. There's a list of Parliamentary historical material that is available online here, though you'll have to look through it as unhappily it doesn't have a handy by-election category.
Another thought - WP:RX is set up to help people access not-publically-available resources for the purposes of Wikipedia sourcing, but I don't know if it works for books - you'll have to explore that I think. But what about inter-library loan from your own library: By-Elections in British Politics, 1832-1914 and British Electoral Facts: 1832-1987 and A History of British Elections since 1689 seem the ones that everyone else refers to. (talk) 19:37, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi JASpencer (and iridescent!)
For bare facts (date, candidates, votes) FWS Craig's books of results are my basic tool. They are rare and expensive to buy, but your local library should have them.
As to online sources, the best are the newspapers. I make heavy use of The Times archive, to which I have access through a library. It has a strong unionist/tory bias, but it's usually right on the basic facts. I also highly commend the British Newspaper Archive, for which free access is available to selected Wikpiedians on request at WP:BNA. It has a much wider variety of papers, so it offers a broader spread of perspectives. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

August 1[edit]

Why are the Big Four all private companies?[edit]

In almost every other industry, the largest players are all public companies, with most of them listed on the stock exchange. So what's special about the accounting industry that makes their largest companies private instead? My other car is a cadr (talk) 08:09, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Since they audit public companies, there could be conflict of interest problems if investors had a piece of both sides, especially a 51% piece. I know I'd go easier on my own company, if I had the chance, and I'm barely even greedy or sleazy. Not sure if there's a law or policy against it, just seems to make sense. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:57, August 1, 2015 (UTC)
Also, as the "Legal structure" section says, these companies aren't companies, but professional services networks. And that's where this layman gives up. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:01, August 1, 2015 (UTC)
Don't give up, don't give up, don't give up. --Askedonty (talk) 09:12, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
As InedibleHulk suggests, selling public securities would risk compromising the firms' independence. Auditors are required by Rule 2-01 of Regulation S-X, promulgated by the Securities and Exchange Commission, to maintain independence of their public audit clients. In addition, accounting firms do not really need to sell securities to raise capital. Their main outlays are for employee compensation and rent, and both of these are current expenses. While they do have some capital costs, such as for computer systems, they are able to raise funds for these without selling public securities. John M Baker (talk) 17:18, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
For a practical example, see Arthur Andersen and what happened to it when the Big Four was the Big Five. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:49, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
In my experience, the private ownership of a big four company has less to do with conflicts of interest and more to do with the fact that it's a professional service firm - it has very little assets beyond its employees and is thus owned by its employees (or, rather, a small part of its most senior employees). Thus they don't need capital and the costs associated with it (shareholders, after all, require return on equity). In a lot of countries, where non-compete clauses are not enforced, it is very easy for these senior employees to get up and leave, taking the clients (and even junior employees) with them, and they would do it if the profits that they make were to be "eaten" by passive shareholders. The same structure is typical for other professional service firms, especially law firms.No longer a penguin (talk) 11:09, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Note that in most jurisdictions law firms are legally required to restrict ownership to lawyers who currently provide or previously provided legal services at the firm. John M Baker (talk) 20:28, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Differences and similarities Quebeckers and Acadians[edit]

What are the differences between the Quebeckers and Acadians? What are the similarities they share? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:42, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia will not do your homework for you. Read French Canadian and Acadians. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:46, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

This is not homework. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:47, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia also has an article titled Québécois (word) which may lead you interesting places. --Jayron32 23:57, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
The Quebecers were three-time champions. "The Acadian Giant" and "The Canadian Earthquake" were just odd together. That's the main difference, anyway. As was said, there are others in the articles.
As for similarities, they're all required to help pay for the longest election campaign in Canadian history instead of useful things. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:49, August 3, 2015 (UTC)

Historic map of Acadia in Canada[edit]

Is there an actual historic map of Acadia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 14:47, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course. There are many. You will find one in the Acadia article here. You might also look at Historical Maps of Canada or this article by Library and Archives Canada or this article about a recently-discovered 1699 map or the very thorough Lloyd Reeds Map Collection, especially Chapter 4. (talk) 18:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Left-handed people[edit]

At the time of this posting, Wikipedia does not have Category:Left-handed people. What are some examples of notable left-handers, past or present?
Wavelength (talk) 15:45, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

If there are people for whom their handedness is of substantial importance, then a category for such people might be interesting. On the other hand, a list of any sort of people who happen to be left-handed is simply trivia at best, and a great idea for a "clickbait" page for sure. We also do not have a category for polydactylia, etc. but they are listed where the fact is notable for the person in the Polydactyly article. The idea of categories is not "make them because we can" but make those which are likely to be of use to someone. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:31, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
It can be very significant in sports. Warren Spahn, Sandy Koufax and Steve Carlton come to mind as famous lefty pitchers. And of course Lefty Grove and Lefty Gomez. President Obama is left-handed, and he's fairly famous. There is a Category:Handedness, for what it's worth. And just to confuse the issue, Brooks Robinson batted and threw right-handed, and wrote left-handed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Category:Southpaw boxers is one where it matters. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:57, August 2, 2015 (UTC)
Marie Curie. Bill Gates. M.C. Escher. Monica Seles. Mozart. Napoleon. LeBron James. Queen Victoria (and several of her descendants). Stan Lee. Van Gogh. Oprah Winfrey. See [5] [6] [7] [8] and many more such lists. (BTW, this was the latest deletion discussion about having the category on Wikipedia.) (talk) 19:18, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
This seems like a job for Wikidata. This query could be a start. Gabbe (talk) 20:25, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
I wouldn't trust any of those lists, as names tend to be added to them on flimsy or no evidence. seems to be a Snopes-like site for these claims. Of the people on your list, it says there's no evidence that Marie Curie, Mozart, Napoleon, Prince Charles, or van Gogh were/are left-handed, and that Queen Victoria wrote right-handed. Those claims aren't sourced either, but I'm inclined to believe that site over the lists.
One of the lists you linked ([9]) is better since it shows pictures of many of the people writing with their left hands, but it's still possible that the images were inadvertently mirrored. -- BenRG (talk) 08:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
There is also Handedness of Presidents of the United States and List of musicians who play left-handed--Pacostein (talk) 13:23, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Then there are those musicians whose left-handedness was enforced through injury, such as Category:Classical pianists who played with one arm, for which a whole sub-repertoire has emerged (see List of works for piano left-hand and orchestra, for example). -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:30, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
You can add Jon Stewart to the list. Dismas|(talk) 09:26, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

August 2[edit]

22nd Regiment Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry during Maryland Campaign[edit]

Were all members and companies of the 22nd Regiment Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry present at the Battle of Antietam and Battle of Shepherdstown? Especially Company H.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:33, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Pedigree collapse[edit]

Are there any known examples of people whose parents are siblings of each other? Such people would have only 2 distinct grandparents. Also, their fathers are also their uncles, their mothers are also their aunts, and their siblings are also their cross cousins. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 19:58, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

That's pretty common in Ancient Egypt, Hawaii and many other cultures in history especially among royalties. Kameʻeiamoku and his twin brother Kamanawa comes to mind. Also Ptolemaic dynasty#Ptolemaic family tree--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:17, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
In fiction, you of course have Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella who were children of Jaime and Cersei Lannister, twin siblings, as well as many of the Targaryens, in A Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin. Wikipedia has an article and section Sibling relationship#Sibling marriage and incest which could lead the OP interesting places. --Jayron32 00:56, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
We also have a Pedigree collapse article. Rmhermen (talk) 01:56, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Other examples might include the grandchildren of Adam and Eve. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 16:14, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The etymologies of "Adam" and "Eve" are interesting.[10][11] Also, Genesis contains two different creation stories, the first of which does not suggest that there was a single male and a single female to start the human race, but rather that the human race was created in one stroke. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:33, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
More information on Bugs's note on Genesis creation story can be found at Documentary hypothesis and Genesis creation narrative. The two creation stories in Genesis are by the "P" source (the first story, which is Genesis 1 and the first part of Genesis 2) and the "J" source (covering the rest of Genesis 2 and forward). --Jayron32 16:43, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

August 3[edit]

How many country's currency have Braille and/or tactile features on them?[edit]

I could only find Canadian currency tactile feature. There's also the two commemorative euro coins[[12]] celebrating the 200th anniversary of Louis Braille’s birth. Is there any other country in this club? My other car is a cadr (talk) 02:17, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Apparently US is catching up in 2020[13] with a new bill. A little late, but good for them.My other car is a cadr (talk) 02:22, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

India is planning it as well, but doesn't look as yet like they have produced any. --Jayron32 02:53, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Banknotes for currencies such as the Euro, Indian rupee, Chinese renminbi are sized differently for different denominations, which makes them quite easy to tell apart by touch (at least for an experienced user). US and Canada are two exceptions to this. Abecedare (talk) 03:22, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Euros are also printed with a thick, rough ink for the numbers, and some notes (old €200s and €500s, and all next generation notes) have additional tactile elements - see Euro banknotes#Features for people with impaired sight. Smurrayinchester 08:36, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
South African banknotes have some tactile features - though not exactly Braille. and (talk) 07:03, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Swedish banknotes have different sizes for different denominations and intaglio print which you can use to tell the difference. [14] [15] Sjö (talk) 09:14, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
  • In one country that I visited in 1975 – I think it was The Netherlands – notes could be distinguished by a number of textured dots. —Tamfang (talk) 08:27, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Our Malaysian ringgit#Third series (1996) article doesn't say, but I believe Malaysian bank notes since the third series in 1996 have generally had braille. They also have other tacticle elements I believe primarily intended for security reasons but which would probably also help the sight impaired. See e.g. [16], [17], [18]. (I'm pretty sure I remembered reading stories at the time, but finding stories from circa 1996 in Malaysia for more obscure stuffc like this from a Google search is difficult.) Whether these elements ever suffered any flaws like for the Brunei dollar, I have no idea. Note that Malaysian bank notes are different sizes depending on the denomination, as with most currencies as Abecedare mentioned above. I found [19] which mentions a Cash Test device used in the Euro to make it easier to determine the size of the bank notes. OT but that also includes some examples of portrait design bank notes which I've never seen before. Nil Einne (talk) 09:35, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
British notes and coins all vary in size in a predictable way which makes them recognisable by touch, as well as paper with a distinctive texture, and raised print. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:06, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
I found Australian banknotes about to change thanks to a 13-year-old boy who campaigned for a year to have a tactile feature added. Also a website that Wikipedia won't allow me to link to (but search "Banknotes for the visually impaired") which states: "The Bank of England has this to say about Braille on notes: '…on the advice of The Royal Institute for the Blind the bank has not included this because very few blind people now read Braille; it is also regarded as a feature that may well wear out over the life of a banknote and therefore only serve to mislead if a tactile feature of this type became incomplete.' But it does incorporate a few things to help the visually impaired (different-sized notes, with each using different coloured shapes — similar in many ways to the design of euro banknotes)." Also Banknote design for the visually impaired which supports the comments above about the old Netherlands Guilder notes. Alansplodge (talk) 11:52, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, intaglio printed currency has generally been "readable" by the blind in the first place (from experience with a person blind since birth as a fellow student many years ago) - the use of Braille by fire exits and at drive-up ATMs has generally amused me, alas. Braille used in normal printing is about .5 mm high - while studies indicate that on fine paper, a height of .15mm is sufficient[20]. Unfortunately this adds 15 mm to a stack of 100 banknotes, and (worse) makes the stack uneven if the notes are aligned. [21] notes that normal wear can make the discrete dots unusable. Canada offers a special banknote reader for the blind, as one other measure (same cite). Thus the use of sufficiently raised Braille or other insignia may be more for image than for practicality. For large denominations, rfid may be practical - the tags can be under 20 microns thick - or .02 mm, about 1/7 the thickness of the "raised dot" system, and the tags do not get worn down. Cost would be under $.01 per tag ([22] noted a price of 20 cents per tag back in 2004) - noting that the production cost of a US$100 bill is 12.5 cents with the new features just added, this is not a major problem. [23] notes the printing of such tags on paper - reducing the cost still further. Providing each blind person with an rfid reader for such a tag is likely far cheaper than the C$300 Canada spent (some appear to be on the market for about $5 per reader - likely cheaper in the long run than using Braille.). Collect (talk) 11:56, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Sweden's central bank is about to issue new banknotes and have released a smartphone app where you can scan a banknote and have the denomination (and expiration date) read out, specially aimed at the blind.[24] I thought it sounded silly at first. However,a little googling showed me that apparently blind people can use smartphones and that Apple has put a great deal of work into making them useable without seeing the screen. Sjö (talk) 06:25, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
  • As to drive-up ATMs, there is nothing amusing about making them available to car passengers who are blind. -- (talk) 03:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) A more general article is Counting on Currency Accessibility WHICH discusses a number of countries and their solutions to this issue. Apparently, "the American Council of the Blind won its lawsuit against the [US] Treasury Department claiming that it is discriminatory and in violation of the Rehabilitation Act not to provide paper money that can be identified by blind citizens." Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks a lot everyone for your contributions. That was very helpful. My other car is a cadr (talk) 13:17, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Donduk Kuular[edit]

Could someone point me to any references that deal with Donduk Kuular in any degree of detail? Hack (talk) 11:55, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

"VERMIS 40·PE·LŌ" on Carta Marina[edit]

On the Carta Marina from 1527-39, just off the coast of Norway across from Hetlandia, there's a sort of worm or snake being pinched by a crab. They are accompanied by a legend that looks like "VERMIS 40·PE·LŌ". Does anyone know what this means, and in particular, how the "40" fits in? --Amble (talk) 18:21, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I found a German book which says it means "Schlange von 40 fuß Länge" - snake of 40' length. Google books resultDuncanHill (talk) 18:35, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Interesting, thank you. --Amble (talk) 19:08, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Hungarian border fence and Asian immigrants[edit]

It isn't ironic at all, other than in a sense of history repeating itself. This from Chapter 12 of Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire:

Instead of reducing the warlike natives of Germany to the condition of subjects, Probus contented himself with the humble expedient of raising a bulwark against their inroads. The country which now forms the circle of Swabia had been left desert in the age of Augustus by the emigration of its ancient inhabitants. The fertility of the soil soon attracted a new colony from the adjacent provinces of Gaul. Crowds of adventurers, of a roving temper and of desperate fortunes, occupied the doubtful possession, and acknowledged, by the payment of tithes the majesty of the empire. To protect these new subjects, a line of frontier garrisons was gradually extended from the Rhine to the Danube. About the reign of Hadrian, when that mode of defence began to be practised, these garrisons were connected and covered by a strong intrenchment of trees and palisades. In the place of so rude a bulwark, the emperor Probus constructed a stone wall of a considerable height, and strengthened it by towers at convenient distances. From the neighborhood of Newstadt and Ratisbon on the Danube, it stretched across hills, valleys, rivers, and morasses, as far as Wimpfen on the Necker, and at length terminated on the banks of the Rhine, after a winding course of near two hundred miles. This important barrier, uniting the two mighty streams that protected the provinces of Europe, seemed to fill up the vacant space through which the barbarians, and particularly the Alemanni, could penetrate with the greatest facility into the heart of the empire. But the experience of the world, from China to Britain, has exposed the vain attempt of fortifying any extensive tract of country. An active enemy, who can select and vary his points of attack, must, in the end, discover some feeble spot, on some unguarded moment. The strength, as well as the attention, of the defenders is divided; and such are the blind effects of terror on the firmest troops, that a line broken in a single place is almost instantly deserted. The fate of the wall which Probus erected may confirm the general observation. Within a few years after his death, it was overthrown by the Alemanni. Its scattered ruins, universally ascribed to the power of the Dæmon, now serve only to excite the wonder of the Swabian peasant. (talk) 09:59, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Existentialist ideas in The Curious Case of Benjamin Button[edit]

Are following quotes allusions to any classical existential philosophical work? Can someone cite the work where I could find the original idea?

•"Benjamin Button: Some people, were born to sit by a river. Some get struck by lightning. Some have an ear for music. Some are artists. Some swim. Some know buttons. Some know Shakespeare. Some are mothers. And some people, dance. "

•"Benjamin Button: You never know what's coming for you. "

•"Benjamin Button: You can be as mad as a mad dog at the way things went. You could swear, curse the fates, but when it comes to the end, you have to let go. "

•"Benjamin Button: [Voice over; letter to his daughter] For what it's worth: it's never too late or, in my case, too early to be whoever you want to be. There's no time limit, stop whenever you want. You can change or stay the same, there are no rules to this thing. We can make the best or the worst of it. I hope you make the best of it. And I hope you see things that startle you. I hope you feel things you never felt before. I hope you meet people with a different point of view. I hope you live a life you're proud of. If you find that you're not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again. "

•"Benjamin Button: Our lives are defined by opportunities; even the ones we miss. "

•"Benjamin Button: It's a funny thing about comin' home. Looks the same, smells the same, feels the same. You'll realize what's changed is you."

•"Mrs. Maple: Benjamin, we're meant to lose the people we love. How else would we know how important they are to us? " --Jubilujj 2015 (talk) 01:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)