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March 24[edit]

brother jonathan[edit]

How can I contact the author of the article on Brother Jonathan?

Grafton Tanquary The Jonathan Heritage Foundation The Jonathan Club Los Angeles, CA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grafton tanquary (talkcontribs) 08:10, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Each article may have hundreds of authors. If you see a flaw in an article, bring it up on its discussion page, e.g. Talk:Brother Jonathan. —Tamfang (talk) 08:19, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
To see who has edited an article, (and what they did), visit Brother Jonathan, and click on View History in the top-right. This will bring up a summary list of all edits, and who made on them. Click on the Talk link to leave that person a message. To see what the edit changed, click on the "prev" link. Also, if you click on the article's Talk link, you are taken to a page where you can leave comments/queries/corrections etc about the article. LongHairedFop (talk) 10:42, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
If you want to edit the article go ahead, just make sure your source is reliable. If your are adding new information, the easiest way is to add <ref>[http://www.example.com/new-england/brother-jonathan.html]</ref> immediately after your change, this provides a footnote to the webpage you took the information from, and allows other editors to check that it is factually correct, and other readers to look up more information if they want. See WP:CITE for more information about references, but don't worry if you make a mistake; it will be corrected soon enough. LongHairedFop (talk) 10:53, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Why do you want to contact the author(s)? If you think there is an error that should be corrected please just identify it. If you want to know where a piece of information in the article came from, you will have to go through the edit history to find who added it. If you tell us what it is another editor may be able to help. Paul B (talk) 13:52, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

This wonderful tool tells us that the most prolific author, both in terms of number of edits and amount added to the text, has edited anonymously. You're unlikely to be successful in contacting them. #2 on the list is User:Wighson. Click here to liaise with them directly, although note that they've not edited regularly in over a year. Please do not edit the article yourself, unless you're confident you fit into the exceptions in this essential Wikipedia guideline. Thanks, --Dweller (talk) 14:02, 24 March 2015 (UTC)edited --Dweller (talk) 14:11, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't see how representing the Jonathan Club makes one COI for the Brother Jonathan article. The two have no connection beyond the fact that the former is named from the mythological latter figure. Paul B (talk) 14:05, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Amended. --Dweller (talk) 14:11, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

According to the brothers Hopper (first brother, second brother) in their book The Puritan Gift, the phrase, 'Art thou troubled, brother Jonathan?' was a mocking question, lifted from the Bible, and used by Cavaliers to mock Puritans, ultimately resulting in the term 'brother Jonathan' being applied to Puritans and, by extension, Americans. Before Uncle Sam, apparently, there was brother Jonathan as a caricature embodiment of a generic American (rather than 'the national emblem [sic.] of the glorious states of New England'). Apparently various trains and steamers were named after this character.

I have my doubts about this assertion; the wonders of the internet allow me to check the bible quickly, and the nearest that I can get to the phrase is from 2 Samuel 1 v. 26: I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. 37.25.46.84 (talk) 18:10, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The actual quotation from The Puritan Gift is "How did the expression originate? The most likely origin is the Biblical saying 'I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan'. Used as a term of abuse for their Bible-thumping Puritan opponents by Royalists during the English Civil War, it was applied by British officers to the rebellious colonists during the American Revolution" (p.63). Paul B (talk) 20:30, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Many thanks - I'd misremembered the quotation and given my book away. From memory, isn't there a bit more about the term in the book? I seem to remember that John Bull came into it somehow. 37.25.46.84 (talk) 11:00, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Pirates and venereal diseases[edit]

I watched a documentary on H2 (TV Network), and the documentary was about pirates. One thing that lodged in my mind was that European pirates of the 1700s could not bring women on board of the ship. At the same time, there were venereal diseases, and the treatment for them was pretty crude and painful by modern standards. Could it be that the men had sex with each other, as men would do in modern-day prisons? Or could it be that the men had sex with local women on land? Or could it be that the venereal diseases had spread around non-sexually? 140.254.136.157 (talk) 13:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, all those things could be, though diseases that are "spread around non-sexually", are not typically called "venereal diseases", even if they affect the genital area. Paul B (talk) 13:54, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
No, I meant that a venereal disease that someone acquired by sexual means landed on someone else by non-sexual means (i.e. sharing drinking cups, sharing clothes, poor sanitary conditions in the 1700s). I am wondering which one could have been the most likely culprit of the venereal diseases? Did the male pirates in the 1700s had sex with each other? Is it still called "gay sex" when you merely have someone of the same sex sexually stimulate you by performing fellatio? 140.254.136.157 (talk) 14:16, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Ye scurvy swab! Ve poirates hast no truck viv 'gay sex' an' 'fellatio' - nae, ve leave such foul practices to foreign curs - arr - ven good Sir Dick zed Let us bang these dogs of Seville 'ee baint talkin' 'bout 'avin' sex vith each utha! Ye got a durty mind, ye. Arr! 37.25.46.84 (talk) 19:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Some historians, notably B.R. Burg in B. R. Burg (1995). Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rovers in the Seventeenth Century Caribbean. NYU Press. ISBN 9780814712351. , have suggested that homosexuality was common amongst pirates. As you will see from our article on buccaneers, other historians question this position. We certainly know that homosexual behaviour is common in other environments where men are unable to meet women for extended periods of time - see our article on situational sexual behavior. It is certainly possible for venereal diseases to spread in such all male populations. RomanSpa (talk) 22:06, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

As a pirate myself, I can assure you that we pirates are not interested in gay sex at all, other than, of course, lesbianism, which is entirely normal and a delight to everyone. We are, of course, highly-sexed, as this documentary makes clear. 37.25.46.84 (talk) 12:31, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

"Rum, buggery, and the lash" referred to the British Navy rather than pirates, as I understood it. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 00:03, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

This and this give some indication that the Cabin boy had some additional relevant duties. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:10, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
That reminds me of a Cheech and Chong bit from a few decades ago. They're watching TV and there's a pirate movie on. One of the crew (perhaps a cabin boy) is to be punished:
[sound of whip} Oh!
[sound of whip] Oh!!
[sound of whip] Oh!!! YES!!!!
Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:18, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Regarding the general question of venereal disease on sailing ships (regardless of whether they were legally licensed and registered or pirate ships), the article History of syphilis may be an interesting read. --Jayron32 00:43, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect British Empire Medal List[edit]

I am writing to you concerning this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Recipients_of_the_British_Empire_Medal

I find this page incorrect and incomplete as there are 293 people awarded the British Empire Medal as of June 2012.

I would like to add my deceased grandfather to this page.

My grandfather was Staff Sergeant John Farrugia who served in the Royal Army Service Corps.

He was awarded the B.E.M medal and I have an army statement showing this and the initials B.E.M atfer his name on this statement.

Therefore please update this list at your earliest convenience to include his name.

If you do not update your records accurately concerning this matter I will look to seek legal advice and also bring this to the attention of the local media how you are not giving the recognition to those honoured by missing their names of this list.

Thanks

Mr Matthew Farrugia

193.62.24.120 (talk) 14:57, 24 March 2015 (UTC) 24/03/2015 at 14:57 GMT

No threats of legal action have any validity here. It seems strange that the name and Corps you mention doesn't have an entry in the British Forces war records site but perhaps your grandfather is one of the John Farrugias mentioned there. You are powerless to make Wikipedia include any names, but all you have to do is find an official site that mentions your grandfather's award, or a press report, and we will gladly add his name to the list. If fact, you could do it yourself. This is the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit. Dbfirs 15:26, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
I should add that the Category:Recipients_of_the_British_Empire_Medal is not an article giving a complete list of everyone who received the medal. It's a category. Its role is to group together everyone with the medal who has an article on Wikipedia. We also have categories like "People from London", but that's not a list of everyone alive or dead who ever lived in London (which would be impossible). If your grandfather is not independently sufficiently famous in his own right he will not have an article about him, and so will not be in the category. Paul B (talk) 15:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, yes, I missed noticing that it was a category not a list. Your grandfather must be notable in his own right to have his own article. Even if we created a list, the only surnames beginning with F would be Fenwick, Ralph; Filer, Ernest Francis; Files, George Edward; Formby, John Raymond; Foster, Ronald Charles; Fry, Arthur Ernest; according to WW2 awards but perhaps the medal was not a wartime award? Dbfirs 15:44, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
John Mary Farrugia, listed as "Clerk of Works, Air Ministry Works Department, Kalafrana, Malta", was awarded the BEM on 2 June 1943, according to the London Gazette. It was in the Civil Division, though, not the Military Division. If that is him, then neither his position nor the fact that he was awarded a low-level honour would appear to indicate on their own that he meets the notability criteria. Proteus (Talk) 14:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
293 were awarded the medal in June 2012. See British Empire Medal#From 2012. I don't know whether a total count is recorded. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Women's Headgear[edit]

Did the headgear common Christian women wore in earlier centuries have a religious meaning? Like Islamic Hijab? Thanks for comments. --Omidinist (talk) 15:26, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

It was never quite the same as hijab, but our article Christian headcovering makes it clear that all or most churches required women to cover their heads, until about the 1960s. Indeed, until then, women in Christian-majority countries routinely covered their heads in public. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
In addition to the headcoverings worm by the laity, there's also the wimple, worn by many current nuns as part of the religious habit. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
See also the mantilla for Catholics (more common in Mediterranean countries I believe) and the wedding veil. Alansplodge (talk) 21:28, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Masculine versions of female names[edit]

A la "Julia" (feminine of Julius) or "Pauline" (feminine of Paul). The thought occurred to me while discussing Vin Diesel's naming of his daughter after the late Paul Walker. What masculine names are verifiably derived from older names for females? Evan (talk|contribs) 20:30, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Have you tried looking through any of those "lists of boys names" that would be all over the internet, and see if any of them look like masculized feminine names? I was thinking Mario (given name) was a good candidate, but it really isn't - it has a separate origin from "Maria". I would suspect that if there are any, it's a pretty short list. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:46, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Hymen ? (I bet Hymen Lipman had trouble with bullies growing up. Maybe some of them called him "pencil neck" and gave him ideas ?) StuRat (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Hymen is the Greek god of marriage - god, not goddess.[1] Hymen also is or was a fairly common Jewish given name. I don't know what that version's origin is. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:10, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
According to this, "Hyman" as a Jewish name comes from "man". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:13, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
That's no consolation to Misty Hyman. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:14, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 July 3#Given names (male from female).
Wavelength (talk) 21:46, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Ah, excellent. I should have checked the archives. Thanks. Evan (talk|contribs) 19:32, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Unconscious thought theory[edit]

Many years ago I discovered that my brain solves problems quite efficiently in the “backoffice” whilst I am consciously thinking about something entirely unrelated. Presumably my experience is no exception. As a consequence, I now often just analyse a tricky problem and synthesise one / more solutions (there are cases where none of the solutions is without major disadvantages and there are cases where there does not seem to be a solution in loop 1 of the analysis / synthesis phase) and then just ignore the matter.
At some random time later - during dinner / in the shower / whilst asleep / whilst sitting in my favourite wine-bar idly gazing at the Gothic vaulting - a solution (not necessarily the best) pops up unexpectedly paralleled by some “Eureka” surge of cerebral bliss.
I suspect that there is a term for this, but googling does not get me far. We have an article on Unconscious thought theory, but this seems to imply that UT is best at solving trivial stuff / that it does not exist / that it is not superior to deliberate mental processes.
In my case I have been / am solving problems in database design and digital 3D modeling, many of which I would not consider to be trivial. Of course, the last point may well be correct, but why waste time and effort on conscious thought when you can “outsource” it to neurons lazing around in the subconscious.
Sorry about the lengthy pre(r)amble. Question: 1) which other WP references may be useful to research that? 2) is there a less clunky name (colloquial) than unconscious thought theory? 3) POV and anecdotal, but is this “phenomenon” experienced / utilised habitually by other ref deskers? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:28, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

There might be something about stress and how it affects thinking. I think this was explored on Brain Games recently. Notice how you come up with these answers in non-stressful situations, or at least when you're focused on something else. Anecdotally, after a long day at work, solutions will often occur to me on the drive home, when I'm focused on traffic. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:06, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Q.3. All the time. All my life. See Recall (memory) @ Involuntary memory retrieval. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:12, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
You're talking about the subconscious, although our article on it is horrible. The phenomenon is universal, if not universally recognized. It's the source of expressions "on the tip of my tongue" and "sleep on it." If you can't think of a term or name, often the best thing is simply to leave it aside. It will then pop into your head unbidden after a while. It's the reason why people say not to make big decisions on a hurry, but to sleep on them. The subconscious can work at the problem and find solutions and objections that might not come to mind during a short focused effort of concentration.
Here are a list of [sources http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=sleep+on+it+the+power+of+the+subconscious&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8], some of which may be poor, but it will show the commonness of the idea. As for myself, I often think of various things that have been at question during the day as I lay down to sleep, and it does help. μηδείς (talk) 22:30, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Are you confusing "subconscious" with "unconscious"? The word "subconscious" is certainly common in self-help books, but I don't think it's scientific. -- BenRG (talk) 00:58, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I am using subconscious to refer to those parts of the mind not immediately the object of (or ofttimes immediately recoverable by) focus: below consciousness. I am using unconscious to refer to either the lack of consciousness at all, or those regulatory processes mediated by the brain but not accessible internally by the mind. The subconsciousness would be the place where the words we speak are spontaneously generated; we only become conscious of them when we say them or vocalize them to ourselves. BenRG has posted some great links below which I highly recommend.
I'm certainly not selling Freudianism or any New Age stuff. I'll mention the novelist and playwright/screenwriter Ayn Rand's The Art of Fiction which mentions "subconscious" 28 times, and which also defines the subconscious as the contents of your mind not currently accessible or accessed by conscious focus. She speaks of "stocking" the unconscious by taking time to consider notable events, actions, and subjects as you go about daily life to provide a source, sometimes only used much later, as artistic inspiration. μηδείς (talk) 01:59, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Denying you are "selling" widely-discredited bullshit psychological theorists only to then cite a widely discredited bullshit political theorist on a neuroscience concept. Interesting ploy. --Jayron32 02:02, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Jayron that's three highly hostile edits in a row, across the desks. You may not know it, but Rand wrote almost no political theory, and the book I mention has nothing to do with politics. It's a well-reviewed book on fiction writing and nothing else respected even by non-libertarians and Rand-fans. You're even confabulating strawmen, at whom you throw obscenities. What psychological theorists did I advocate? I said our article was terrible. This is uncharacteristic of you. μηδείς (talk) 02:22, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Creativity#Incubation and Sleep and creativity may be relevant. -- BenRG (talk) 00:58, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
The basic phenomenon is discussed under varying rubrics in contemporary psych literature: incubation, sub-/un-/non-conscious problem solving, mind wandering etc. So try those as search terms. Keep in mind though that while there is plenty of anecdotal evidence for such unconscious processing, there is yet no universal agreement on the mechanism, effect size, or whether it is a net negative or positive if consciously employed. And as you can expect the field is saturated with pop/outdated psychology, self-help/new-age literature. Here is a 2009 review article that provides a broad overview. Abecedare (talk) 03:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
@Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM: this is a most awesome thread and you sir, are a most awesome person. Personally, I've been looking into this for a while now, from the perspective of an amateur. I've found hints of insight into the problem in many different disciplines, so you may want to broaden your interdisciplinary approach to take into account other ways of looking at the problem. For example, you may find something valuable that will help you connect the dots over at art of memory, jhāna, and flow. I would also recommend looking into some of the findings in music therapy as they may provide some additional answers. Oh, and before I forget, I've found that the neurobiological effects of physical exercise can help get you half of the way there. If I think heavily about a problem an hour before I workout, I will get some incredible insight during the workout, to the point where I have to stop exercising and write it down. Good luck. Viriditas (talk) 20:45, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Taddea Visconti's cause of death[edit]

Is there any source saying why Taddea Visconti died at age 30? I couldn't even find whether it was natural cause or not (maybe there's some Italian source, more familiar with that than those in English). Brandmeistertalk 21:43, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Italian Wikipedia doesn't say but following its sources, this one says she died in childbirth. [2]
P.S. NB both the German and Italian wikipedias contract the English re the place of her burial; both say it was in the Munich Frauenkirche, though her grave has never been discovered. [3]
See also [4] (page 539) which I think says something like (I'm not good with old fonts): Anno dni MCCCLXXXI. obiit dna THADAEA fila de Mediolano, ducissa Babarie (Vxor I. Stephani I. Ingolstad.) 184.147.117.34 (talk) 23:51, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


March 25[edit]

I seek data on ancient Hx, and find nothing prior to the 1600's for ancient native Americans in NJ's Seacaucus area from where I have a 3,000 plus era stone axe-head.[edit]

How can Wikipedia improve posted data?? I've searched your site with no avail. Data for my inquiry, which I have sent and requested is non-engaging and responsive. It shouldn't take an hour to ask a question or suggest an idea!.

I seek data on ancient Hx, and find nothing prior to the 1600's for ancient native Americans in NJ's Seacaucus area from where I have a 3,000 plus era stone axe-head. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.25.192 (talk) 00:19, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

You question as stated is unclear. Can you define "ancient Hx"? Googling that term I get flashcards for words that deal with ancient Near Eastern civilizations, and the archeology of Halifax. I see your IP geolocates to Parsippany, and you mention Secaucus. The indigenous people during that time were the Lenape people and their predecessors.
This desk is run by volunteers who cannot necessarily guess what you are looking for without a better explanation, and the guidelines at the top of the page advise you to expect an answer within days (if possible), not "while you wait". μηδείς (talk) 02:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Are you asking about ancient hand axes? If so see Hand_axe#History_and_distribution - our article says they were used in North America since the Pleistocene, but doesn't have many good examples or citations for that. There's some related info at Folsom point - but those are knapped projectile points, not axes. It does look like our article on hand axes could use some attention and citations for North America, if anyone wants to help with that. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:35, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Hx is typically an abbreviation of "history", at least in a medical context (although not in the field of history itself). So I suppose the OP is asking about ancient history. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:15, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

That's unAustralian[edit]

In Australia, there's a catchphrase/ catchcry/ not sure what you'd call it, but it consists of calling something "unAustralian". The meaning is that the other person is not very laid back, and is taking rules too seriously, or just being plain unfair, or something like that. I've asked others about their national "word" and what it means, and heard one surprising answer: apparently in Singapore, it has a negative meaning - if you show you are obsessed with money, "that's very Singaporean." Can anyone tell me what the national word means around the world? IBE (talk) 15:48, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Not exactly what you're after, but you may be interested in No true Scotsman. --Dweller (talk) 15:59, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
No true Australian would complain about that answer ;) IBE (talk) 16:07, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
We have articles on un-American and un-Australian. The latter, perhaps surprisingly, considerably predates the former. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 16:13, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
The term "un-American" was presumably already established when Mark Twain spoke of the unfairness of condemning Satan without hearing his side of things: "To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English; it is un-American; it is French!" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Very interesting, Jack. I would add that "unAustralian" had a simpler meaning, before being politicised, and was more about a "fair go". I first remember it in serious (so to speak) discussion in the media, on a current affairs show. Pubs were going off at restaurants for serving liquor without a meal, against the licensing conditions. Now restaurants pay something like $1000 a year for a restaurant liquor licence; pubs, maybe 10 times that. So at a restaurant, you can't order alcohol just on its own; it has to go with a meal. Bummer if the restaurants ignore it, but the pubs were complaining, obviously. But a restaurant spokesperson called that "unAustralian," with an obvious vested interest that sounds, well, very Singaporean. IBE (talk) 17:16, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I Am Canadian may be interesting. --Jayron32 16:43, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I speak German and have heard Germans describe something as deutsch in a disparaging way, often implying that the thing in question is rigid, narrow-minded, or authoritarian. Marco polo (talk) 16:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Now that German one really interests me. From the Xenophobes' travel guide (or similar such title): "Contrary to popular belief, Germans are very funny people, in fact, Germans take their humour very seriously." IBE (talk) 17:10, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree that Germans can be very funny, and this usage is an example of self-disparaging irony. Marco polo (talk) 17:52, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
That's a possible view. I'd prefer to understand it as a shortcut meaning "un-federal", "un-tribal" among the younger generations.--Askedonty (talk) 08:24, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
  • The essence of un-American would be counter to what makes us distinctive, especially the principles of the Declaration and the Bill of Rights, and less so a dislike of July 4th and Thanksgiving. Meriam Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/un-american. Of course there's HUAC, which many consider to have itself been un-American. I'd assume the other major anglophone countries would share this sense of fair play for the defendant as a common English heritage. When I was young, one also used to hear "It's a free country" all the time, but I don't think I've heard that since the '90's. μηδείς (talk) 18:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, HUAC was a committee which engaged in un-American activities. Rarely has a political group been named so honestly. :-) StuRat (talk) 21:42, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
"Former Prime Minister Sir John Major brands Ukip 'profoundly un-British in every way' ahead of key by-election" [5] "Un-British" seems to be rather similar to "UnAustralian" except without the "laid back" part, although the related virtue of sangfroid is highly valued. Alansplodge (talk) 21:21, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Given recent talk page debates... I can only assume that someone will soon complain that all of these answers (at least the ones that don't simply point to references) as being unWikipedian... or unReferencedeskian... or un-something like that. Blueboar (talk) 21:34, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

The negative version is called a cultural cringe. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 07:34, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

In Turkish there are a couple of words, "alafransa" (in a French manner) which means something like "modern, European or civilized", and its opposite "alaturka", which means "backwards, uncouth or jerry-built". Not very self-flattering. --Xuxl (talk) 18:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
That's very useful, thanks XuXl. Whenever I have occasion to refer to Mozart's "Rondo alla Turca" now, I'll be sure to think of it as "Rondo alaturka". Homophones have their uses. :) -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

There is "osvensk" - un-Swedish - which confers spontaneity, outgoingness, talking to people you don't know, having a good time without worrying too much about the consequences etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.10.249.240 (talk) 22:33, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Did Nietzsche commit coprophagia?[edit]

I have read a few articles that briefly mention it, but haven't found a definitive answer, I have always been interested, and have considered writing an essay based around coprophagia and its correlation to Nietzsche's illness/philosophy JacobSmiley (talk) 18:44, 25 March 2015 (UTC)JacobSmiley

Cite some sources. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:52, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
There's a discussion (with some sources) at Talk:Friedrich_Nietzsche/Archive_10#Nietzsche.27s_scatological_breakdown. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
If Nietzsche went crazy, that would seem to be the main story. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:12, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
That is exactly what I was looking for, thank you, Sluzzelin. JacobSmiley (talk) 21:26, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
If you read German, here is a note stating that he smeared feces (not ate feces, hence no coprophagia) and there (PDF, 4 pages) is a diagnosis. --Stuhlsasse (talk) 03:18, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
I wouldn't want to leap to the conclusion that the feces-smearing is part of the illness, given that asylums were hardly known for their kindness. Throughout the "Security Housing Units" (i.e. solitary confinement) of American prisons today, the same behavior frequently occurs. Feces is often one of the last things a broken prisoner retains control of. Wnt (talk) 20:49, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


March 26[edit]

Confusion of Priorities[edit]

I see that a school of 400 in the middle of Saskatchewan has its own page, however the page of an influential and respected professor has been twice removed. I would like to understand the process behind that specific case, as well as other related cases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acidic Biscuit (talkcontribs) 01:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Who? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:03, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
As I think BB means to imply, it‘s hard to say much without linking or naming the articles to which you refer. But I guess you’re after the notability guideline found at WP:N. Beyond the general principles there are specific criteria for various categories of topic; see in particular WP:ORG and WP:PROF.—Odysseus1479 04:20, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
True, and what I'm really getting at (not stated well) is that we need to know who he's talking about and whether there was a deletion request page so that we could review the specifics. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I was just about to add that articles are often deleted for e.g. copyright violation or complete lack of sourcing, without prejudice to the creation of policy-compliant replacements.—Odysseus1479 04:30, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
BB and questioner, it's not for the Ref Desk to review deletion decisions, if that's what's happened here. There's a WP:AfD process for that. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 05:08, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
I strongly agree with User:JackofOz that it is not the job of the Reference Desk to question or review deletion or other content decisions. However, the reader may find it useful to be aware that he is not the only person who has concerns about this problemfeature. Unfortunately, Wikipedia's "schools" policy was, and to some extent remains, a vexed subject. About 9 years ago the policy was one of the principal battlegrounds between two different factions within Wikipedia, each of which had a different interpretation of the concept of "notability". Unfortunately, this debate occurred at a time when there was a large influx of new editors to Wikipedia, many of whom were less experienced and highly enthusiastic, and many of whom were readily persuaded that their own high school was notable (because, hey, they went there themselves and so it was obviously notable, and it got the necessary media coverage in the local newspaper). Further, there was a small but determined group of editors who felt for a variety of reasons, some expressly political, that schools were educational institutions on a par with major universities, and who were determined to add as many schools as possible to Wikipedia. Finally, participation in "deletion debates" about schools was highly co-ordinated by the people who wished to retain such articles - mailing lists were maintained, both within Wikipedia and in private communications between editors outside the Wikipedia environment. As sometimes happens in such cases, the debates became polarised, and compromise became difficult. Unfortunately, the better organisation of the side who wished to ascribe notability to all schools prevailed, and thus we now have the rather unfortunate precedent that all high schools are more-or-less automatically notable. There is no easy solution to this problem. I myself was involved last year in a proposal to move most schools into a new "educational supplement" to Wikipedia, but, like other attempts to address this problem, the proposal came to nothing.
As for the many, many articles on schools themselves, they have become a wasteland. Inspection of their edit histories shows that these articles are now largely out-of-date, with an unfortunately high number of edits consisting of vandalism and assorted personalia. As you'll see from my personal edit history, from time to time I've expended a lot of effort in attempting to clean up these articles, but it's a thankless task, and the Schools Wikiproject is utterly overwhelmed by the volume of work required to keep them at an acceptable standard. (The proponents of retaining all these articles have mostly vanished, of course.) My personal approach is, as far as possible, simply not to think about the problem. Wikipedia isn't perfect, so the best approach is to just accept things the way they are and move on. RomanSpa (talk) 10:48, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
The other day I came across this. Note the speedy tag clearly says "Note that educational institutions are not eligible under this criterion." and of course I declined the speedy, which was a bit of a surprise to the tagger. I pointed out Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#A7. No indication of importance (individuals, animals, organizations, web content, events), Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools/Criteria for Speedy Deletion A7and Wikipedia:Schools#Notability. And now it's at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Learnium International School. At least nobody has accused the nominator of anything. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 11:58, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Just to expand on RomanSpa's response: if the professor you mention is still alive, their article would fall under the purview of WP:BLP. Deletion discussions on articles about living people often err on the side of deletion due to concerns that the person is/will be libeled and/or given incorrect information. A shitty article about a school is just a shitty article, but a shitty article about a person is an ethical and legal minefield. So, when it comes to living people, it's often the case that no article is better than a poor one. So, it's possible the article was wiped out just due to the poor nature of it - something that would be less likely to happen if it was a different kind of subject. Matt Deres (talk) 15:51, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
In the case of living American politicians, they don't need anything notable written about them. I tried to delete Harry Lehman, but it was simply impossible. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:45, March 27, 2015 (UTC)
Actually there's a case right now at WP:ANI that is arguing for the speedy deletion of a candidate, see the subentry under Jesus "Chuy" Garcia. μηδείς (talk) 19:29, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, candidates are fair game. They're technically politicians, but getting elected is like passing the training level, I gather. Way harder to bullshit a bullshitter, or a full House of them. Harry Lehman didn't apparently exert any influence, but at least he was in a position to.
The new guy seems highly notable in comparison, but they're both here for the same reason. "Mayor of Wadsworth" just doesn't cut it, for some reason. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:52, March 29, 2015 (UTC)
It seems that Lehman isn't that unimportant after all. There's a SCOUTUS case, Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights, that probably concern that Harry Lehman. I put a link on the article's talk page but I leave it to those who know more about US law to decide whether it's important enough to be in the article. Sjö (talk) 07:30, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Adele bloch bauer[edit]

I read that Adele Bloch Bauer received many famous guests, at her salon, but I think I spotted an error. Johannes Brahms, was mentioned, but he died in 1897, when Adele, was just a teenager 72.89.237.147 (talk) 15:05, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Note: Brahms is mentioned in the Maria Altmann article. We do not have an article on Adele Bloch Bauer. Rmhermen (talk) 15:41, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
How do you decide when a subject needs to be followed by a comma? —Tamfang (talk) 07:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Congressional Monitor[edit]

I initially asked this on the talk page of Congressional Quarterly, but then realized it is probably better asked here.

I see that Congressional Monitor redirects to Congressional Quarterly, but nothing there mentions anything by that name. There appears to be a website http://congressionalmonitor.com, but it doesn't look like anything I'd ever associate with CQ. This came up because I recently received a survey in the mail from what appears to be the same Congressional Monitor as the web site, with somewhat slipshod multiple-choice questions that appear to presume a very narrow range of political possibility. E.g.:

4. What is the best solution for reducing the national deficit?
(A) Cut discretionary spending
(B) Reduce Farm subsidies [Um, those are somewhere under 2% of the budget - JM]
(C) Reduce Defense Spending [which, by the way, is part of discretionary spending, see item A]
(D) Enact the recommendations of the Bowles-Simpson Plan

Note that D is the only one that involves any increased taxes, and that within a large proposal that is seen as leaning to the conservative side. Is this really from the same people as CQ? If so, there seems to be a deterioration that we must somehow be able to document; if not, then that redirect is a problem. - Jmabel | Talk 16:06, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

The CM page was last edited eight years ago when it was still owned by the same company which owned CQ. Now the economist has purchased the company so I've changed the redirect to the new parent's article. Though for your question, it seems like CQ and CM were owned by the same company but were sister organizations and it would not be surprising if these two targeted different consumers to sell ads to. 70.50.122.38 (talk) 17:49, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
So are you saying that you know confidently that http://congressionalmonitor.com is owned by the Economist, or that you are just conjecturing that? - Jmabel | Talk 23:16, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I did rely upon another editor for the idea that CQ owned an organization named CM. Now that I look closely, the CM you are linking to is an insignificant blog and the most notable use of the term CM is a database created by the Institute for Palestine Studies. 70.50.122.38 (talk) 01:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Nice to fix the link to something a bit more appropriate, but that still gives me nothing on my original attempt to work out who precisely is the "Congressional Monitor" that is sending out the biased surveys. Can anyone here help me? - Jmabel | Talk

If you do a search for '"Congressional Monitor" survey', you'll probably find a lot of people asking the same question (and at least one person implicitly criticising their methodology [6]) but I didn't see anyone answering. (It seems you can have them send surveys to you if you want one [7].) The domain was only registered in 2013 but the registrant details are hidden [8]. Their FAQ says they are incorporated in Washington DC. Perhaps you could fine some info on this incorporation by looking at Washington DC records (here perhaps [9]) and the information they've provided, perhaps not. It wouldn't surprise me if any info is fairly uninteresting and they're started by random people looking to profit and/or push their POV. Nil Einne (talk) 15:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

March 27[edit]

Panagia Church territory in Farsala[edit]

I'm having a hard time trying to geolocate the area where the fragment of the The Exaltation of the Flower was found. Léon Heuzey said he discovered it embedded in the walls of a church in a neighborhood called "Paleo-Loutro" in Farsala.[10][11] I suspect that name has been changed or is spelled wrong, or the translation is bad, because I can't find anything by that name. However, I did find an archaeologist who said the piece was "found in the Panagia Church territory".[12] It looks the archaeologist is referring to the Panagia Demerliotissa, but I don't know for sure.[13] Does anyone have any ideas? Viriditas (talk) 09:48, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Just one point, the Panagia Demerliotissa church can't be the one; it's in the village of Stavros, some 15 km west of the town of Farsala. Still looking for further hints. "Palaeo-Loutro", in the mid-19th century, could refer to all sorts of things and may very well no longer be common as a name; more likely than not it was simply an area known locally as the location of an old hamam. "Panagia", in turn, is of course also an extremely common name for a church; you'd find one in pretty much any village. Fut.Perf. 21:34, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
From what I've read so far, Paleo-Loutro might be a reference to an area containing the ruins of old Roman or Turkish baths within Farsala. I've seen passing references. Viriditas (talk) 03:46, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
This is not answering to the question but a place named Paleo-Loutro can be found on the internet. It also has an article in Wikipedia: Palaio Loutro, however it is located not very far from Sparta so it has to be a different place. Our article states that "palaio loutro" means "old bath". Perhaps this has been determining which area to look for in Farsala. --Askedonty (talk) 11:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. That will at least give me something to go on. Also, I've been having fun working with street view, looking around the area. :) Viriditas (talk) 20:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Then you must have seen the same than I just did. Léon Heuzey writes about the western part of the city and they had to avoid the bazaar, there is a Market Street somewhere the left on the map and then a probable Panagia further to the left. --Askedonty (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Are you referring to the large church on the hill? Viriditas (talk) 21:13, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't know. On [14] some places of interest that are marked. That's the view I get using street view. --Askedonty (talk) 21:18, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
It's quite possible that the church no longer exists? OR, but the Greek Wikipedia article on Farsala (per the google translatation) says the town was damaged in the second world war and in earthquakes after 1950 and in the last 30 years, many old buildings have been demolished.
P.S. on a hill doesn't seem right since Heuzey in your first link refers to the lower town?184.147.117.34 (talk) 22:10, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
According to this [15] local website, the church known as "Panagia" to locals of Farsala today would be the one seen on the photo with the caption "Πάρκο δίπλα στην εκκλησία της Παναγίας". That photo can be identified on Google maps with a location just north of Thetidos Street, at 39°17′46″N 22°22′36″E / 39.2960733°N 22.3767442°E / 39.2960733; 22.3767442. It's the one seen in Askedonty's Google street view link too. That may well match the description of "western part of the lower town", although it seems to be further west than the boundaries of the ancient city according to the diagrams seen here [16], and may well be outside of what was the town area in the 19th century. The present church is also certainly bigger and more modern than the one referred to in Heuzey's article from 1868, and the area certainly doesn't look like preserving anything of 19th-century old-town architecture. Fut.Perf. 22:07, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't know how helpful this is, but The Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites has the following:

Very few ancient remains are to be seen in the city. Just above and to the S of the Apidanos spring, at the W side of the city is a mound on which is a Church of Haghios Paraskevi (earlier Fetiye Cami). The city wall runs along the edge of this mound, and traces of a square tower could be seen (1914). Test trenches here in 1964 turned up prehistoric sherds from the Neolithic period on, and through archaic to Roman, and some ancient remains including a poros capital of Early Classical times. Here or nearby was a Temple of Zeus Thaulios, to whom an inscription has been found. In the center of the modern town in the main plateia were found the foundations of a square building (13 x 13 m) with an inner peristyle court, of the 4th-3d c. B.C. Doric and Ionic architectural fragments from it are in the Volo Museum. In the Kurçunli Cami N of the plateia were to be seen (1914) some remains of an ancient temple. In the Varusi quarter, just above the plain by the E wall, inscriptions to and a head of Asklepios have been found, and a Hellenistic water channel. On the hill in 1966 fragments of 5th c. B.C. terracotta protomes turned up, probably of Demeter and Kore. Twenty minutes W of the city a Hellenic wall (neither end visible), perhaps part of a temple peribolos, was seen in 1952.[17]

Two of the sources cited above are F. Stählin, Pharsalos (1914) and H. Biesantz, Die Thessalischen Grabreliefs (1965). Interestingly enough, I believe Biesantz (1965) might have the answer as it apparently references the work directly. I don't have access to it, but the full source is Biesantz, Hagen. (1965). Die thessalischen Grabreliefs. Studien Zur Nordgriechischen Kunst. Mainz: Philip von Zabern. OCLC 645403304. Does anyone have access to the Biesantz source? I'm not sure if these page numbers are correct, but the above cites pp. 101-108. Viriditas (talk) 04:01, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Doublûres of Characters[edit]

In this picture, a caricature by James Gillray, seven leading Whigs are ridiculed by being shown as kind-hearted in public but essentially villainous. I have some problems with identification. The NPG (http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw62272) lists the following seven:

They are, however, ordered alphabetically, not the way they appear in the picture. I is obviously Fox, while IV is most likely Tierney, V is Burdett and VII is Bedford. Still, I am not able to assign Derby, Norfolk and Sheridan to II, III and VI, so I would appreciate some help in that. --The Theosophist (talk) 18:17, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Sheridan is II (see, for example, Uncorking Old Sherry), Norfolk is III (see, for example, A Norfolk Dumpling] and Derby is VI (see, for example, Peep at Christies). Tevildo (talk) 18:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
@Tevildo: Thank you very much! --The Theosophist (talk) 20:33, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

England & Wales Common Law Offences[edit]

Are common law offences in E&W restricted to criminal matters, or do they also concern civil matters? Do any common law offences relating to criminal matters have maximum penalties of less than life in prison? I have never encountered any and am interested in the answer. Thanks. asyndeton talk 18:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Please see Common law offence#England and Wales, English Criminal Code, Law Commission (England and Wales) and Civil Procedure Rules, which may help with your research. --Jayron32 19:01, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
To answer the OP's specific questions - by definition, an "offence" is a criminal matter. For civil cases, tort is the appropriate term, and there are still many common-law (as opposed to statutory) torts. The only common-law offence (that I can find immediately) for which the penalty is not at large is contempt of court, the maximum sentence being set at two years by the Contempt of Court Act 1981. Note that the act does not create a new stautory offence; it defines additional rules and procedural requirements for prosecution of the still-extant common-law offence. Tevildo (talk) 19:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Name this nasheed[edit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtZCeUgkvFM This is a faux-documentary, by Ahrar ash-Sham (I think). There is a song that starts at 10:12 into the video. Could someone identify it, or if it is not known, could an Arabic speaker write the lyrics so I can try to find it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Radioactivemutant (talkcontribs) 21:08, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Haven't figured out the song but this sounds like the full version. 88.112.50.121 (talk) 22:47, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks a lot man Radioactivemutant (talk) 01:51, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

March 28[edit]

Help with Romanian written in Cyrillic characters[edit]

Bucharest - Biserica Sf. Anton 06.jpg

I'm trying to make sense of the texts in this image, which are Romanian written in Cyrillic characters. Also I'd love to know if it is possible to identify the saint.

The first word at the top is certainly cuviousul (definitive article form of the Romanian word for "pious"); I can't make sense of the second (maybe something to do with birth, because I would expect that to transliterate as something like naciomie). Then below we have something like Cine vǎ putea îndura ziua venirii lui, but I can't quite make sense of that (my moderate foreigner's Romanian gives me something like [He?] who can endure the day of his coming).

Any help? Oh, and if someone has a lot of patience or a Cyrillic keyboard, feel more than free to transcribe the original texts, which would be nice to have on the image file! - Jmabel | Talk 04:11, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Just worked out one part of it myself! What had looked to me like naciomie was Antonie. So given that it is in a St. Anthony church, this is certainly St. Anthony. I'd still like to understand the Cine vǎ putea îndura ziua venirii lui, though. - Jmabel | Talk 04:35, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
    • Maybe, "He who can endure, his day will come"? But I'd still really like to hear from a native Romanian speaker. - Jmabel | Talk 04:46, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
How do you get Antonie (or even naciomie) out of пахомие pakhomie? —Tamfang (talk) 07:59, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Pachomius the Great 184.147.117.34 (talk) 13:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
КЮВИОСЮЛ ПАХОМИE
ЧИНЕ ВА ПЮТЕА ЇНDЮРА ЗИЮА ВЕНИРИИ ЛЮИ
to start you off, though I am not sure about the one I used Yu for – you should try the Language Desk or Romania Wikiproject. Google translate renders this as Venerable Pachomius: Who can ____ day of his coming. 184.147.117.34 (talk) 13:30, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
You may already know this, of course - "But who can endure the day of his coming?" comes from the Book of Malachi, Chapter 3, Verse 2; a modern Romanian translation is "Cine va putea să sufere însă ziua venirii Lui?" [18] For Christians, this verse predicts the Second Coming of Christ and is a well known (to me at least) chorus aria in George Frideric Handel's oratorio, Messiah. Alansplodge (talk) 17:37, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • When the cross-lines are hard to make out, it's hard to distinguish 'Н' from 'П'.
  • Thank you so much! - Jmabel | Talk 21:56, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
    • Ooh. And I got Anthony by looking at the wrong image: this one, which I mistook for being another photo of the same picture. - Jmabel | Talk 22:05, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The Afterlife in Judaism[edit]

I have asked several Jewish friends of mine this question, but even they don't seem to have a clear-cut answer. Does Judaism in the Old Testament describe an afterlife, such as Christians have in the Heaven and Hell described in the New Testament? Obviously, Moses was taken up into Heaven by God, but what about everyone else? If it is not in the Old Testament, is it in Talmudic tradition? Honeyman2010 (talk) 08:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

V'Zot HaBerachah is the relevant Torah portion regarding the death of Moses, which does not mention heaven. Jews do not use the term "Old Testament" as they give no religious recognition to any "New Testament". Nowhere in the Torah does it say that Moses went to "heaven", but rather that he died and was buried. So, what is obvious? Normative Judaism talks about a fairly vague "world to come" not a more specific "heaven" as described in parts of various Christian traditions. Please read Jewish eschatology for more information. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 08:47, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Curious - where did the Bible obtain that textual fragment concerning the corpse of Moses from? Surely, it wasn't just conjured out of thin air! Plasmic Physics (talk) 12:32, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
To which "textual fragment" do you refer? The end of Deuteronomy? I'm not sure how that qualifies as a fragment, but in any case, the answer to your question is presumably, "The same place the rest of Deuteronomy came from." Evan (talk|contribs) 16:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Never mind, I see that the relevant text is not located in the old testament, but in the new. Plasmic Physics (talk) 23:56, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm gonna go ahead and take issue with the characterization of Jewish conceptions of the afterlife as "vague." There is a great deal of Talmudic and post-Talmudic literature on the topic, much of which gets quite involved in discussing quite specific facets of the world to come (ha-olam ha-ba), even down to minute agricultural details. This is not to say that there is a monolithic and systematic conception of how the afterlife "works," as there may be in certain forms of Christianity and other religions—but Jewish theology in general is not monolithic either, and despite appearances, neither is it systematic. There are a variety of opinions on eschatology within the Jewish tradition.
Perhaps the most important thing to keep in mind is that, for much of its history, Judaism was (and Orthodox Judaism still is) an apocalyptic religion. The world to come is not something to be experienced "up there" after death in a place full of clouds and singing angels. It is believed to be a future earthly reality that will be inaugurated by the Messiah when he arrives (coincident with a resurrection of the dead), destroys the enemies of Israel, and ushers in a thousand-year worldwide reign.
None of this should be interpreted as somehow discounting the idea of a "present" heavenly realm. Enoch went somewhere, after all, as did Elijah. This is one point where "vague" (or, at least, "not currently fully understood by scholars") does become an apt descriptor of certain Jewish beliefs. The "bosom of Abraham" mentioned by Jesus in connection with the story of Dives and Lazarus seems to have become a rather more pleasant counterpart to Sheol (by this time identified with the Greek realm of Hades). By this point in the story, though, Hellenism has already had its way with much of Jewish culture, so it becomes quite hard to disentangle the historical origins of this particular idea. "Abraham's bosom" may owe more to the Elysian fields than to anything specific in the Hebrew Bible. Evan (talk|contribs) 16:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. I will read further what you suggested. Honeyman2010 (talk) 08:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Dead Jews go to Sheol, whether they were good or bad. That stops mattering, because they stop having personalities or will. Shadows, basically. When the Old Testament was translated to Greek, Sheol became Hades. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:46, March 28, 2015 (UTC)
Yes Robinson's Essential Judaism agrees with that as the mainstream view. Whereas Catholics pray for the dead and believe in progress of a personality from purgatory to heaven, Judaism as Robinson explains it holds that there is no such thing as an accomplishment or change after death. μηδείς (talk) 19:22, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware, Sheol is a metaphor for the grave. "Then dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to the Lord who gave it." In this verse, spirit is equated with the term Ruach. Which means that once a living soul goes to Sheol (the grave), they become entirely dispersed. Although, an animating substance, the breath of life in of itself is inanimate. Likewise, dust is inanimate. Thus, once a living soul is dispersed, their consciousness comes to an end, until such time that the Lord deems it good to resurrect that living soul, or as it is also called a Nephesh. You and me, we are all Nephesh. There is no third component described that translates to an eternal essence that survives upon death. Plasmic Physics (talk) 00:24, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

The Annotated Alice[edit]

Is Martin Gardner's exegesis of Lewis Carroll's major works The Annotated Alice. ISBN 9780393048476.  still regarded as authorotative or has it been superseded by later work? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Assuming you mean The Annotated Alice, it's been through several versions since 1960. Since he titled that the "definitive edition" (1998/1999/2000) he probably didn't intend to do any more work on it. There is nothing later listed in his bibliography (and he died in 2010). A "150th Anniversary Deluxe Edition" is due out later this year, but it's unlikely to contain further material.--Shantavira|feed me 11:41, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! (yes, "The Annotated Alice" I've fixed the template) Are there any rivals to Gardner's work? Thanks for the tip on the special edition, I'm going to try to pre-order one from my usual bookstore, for my niece/goddaughter. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:01, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

March 29[edit]