Jump to content

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Wikipedia talk:AFCR)
    Main pageTalk pageSubmissions
    Category — List (sorting)    		ShowcaseParticipants
    Apply — By subject    		Reviewing instructions
    		Help deskBacklog
    drives
    Welcome—discuss matters concerning this project!
    AfC submissions
    Random submission
    3+ months
    1,746 pending submissions
    Purge to update
    Shortcut


    Skip to top
    Skip to bottom

    Draft:Koshy's

    [edit]

    My submission Draft:Koshy's was rejected as not having enough seconday, independent and reliable sources. I thought I had used several articles from well-known newspapers which described the eatery in great detail and the sources were secondary. I have improved the submission and also notified the original reviewer. Hope that reviewer sees my message. Also posting this here for opinion on my draft and if anyone can help. I am sure anyone here who has been to Koshy's would like to help make it even better. The eatery is iconic though I have been there only once. Not paid. No COIs. Thanks Trvllr1 (talk) 01:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    It appears that you have made a number of changes and resubmitted, so hopefully you have overcome the issues raised by the previous reviewer. As a minor note, your draft was "declined" not "rejected", as "rejection" implies that it cannot (and/or should not) be resubmitted. Good luck! Primefac (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Random article sample sizes

    [edit]
    Relative frequency of article lengths, as measured in sentences (statistical outliers excluded)

    Fun fact: The most common number of sentences in a Wikipedia article is two.

    Half of articles have between 5 and 29 sentences. More than 10% of them have just one or two sentences (usually two). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Well that depressingly low! KylieTastic (talk) 11:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Given how many complaints I see about "all those mass-created one-sentence substubs", these numbers are actually higher than I expected, but maybe my perspective is being skewed by the discussion about Wikipedia:Notability (species), because species articles skew a bit more heavily on the short side (25% have exactly two sentences). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Would it be useful to have more information along these lines? @BilledMammal has kindly created a sample article set, and we've been looking at what it can tell us about Wikipedia's current content.
    For example: the 50% of articles in the middle (i.e., from the 25th percentile to the 75th percentile) have these ranges:
    • 123–782 words
    • 5–29 sentences
    • 2–9 refs
    • 12–46 links
    Each of these numbers is being calculated separately, so there's not necessarily a single article that has (e.g.,) 338 words + 13 sentences + 4 refs + 23 wikilinks to other articles; it's that when you look at refs alone, regardless of anything else, half the articles have between two and nine refs (with a median of 4). Also, these are refs that the query can currently detect, so it's likely including a few explanatory footnotes and makes no attempt at identifying whether the sources are reliable, independent, etc. It also misses citations that don't use <ref> tags/other detectable elements. And a slightly different group has 5–29 sentences, and a slightly different set has 2–9 refs, etc. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    User:Robert McClenon/Nassau County Bridge Authority

    [edit]

    I accepted a draft for Nassau County Bridge Authority, but had to move the blocking redirect out of the way. My question is whether the redirect needs to be preserved as containing significant history, or can be deleted. Will someone please look at it? My thinking is that it can be deleted, because the significant history was copyvio that has been redacted (revdel'd), so that there no longer is significant history. But I would like a second or third opinion. Should I move it to draft position to point to the article, as is usually done when there is real history, or can it be tagged to go to the great bit bucket in medium earth orbit? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Now with admin tools... I would have just nuke it when processing the draft. 🤣 – robertsky (talk) 07:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see any significant history there; there are a lot of edits but they're all just futzing with the redirect itself. I would have used {{db-afc-move}}. Primefac (talk) 12:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Tagged and deleted. McClenon mobile (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Assigning WikiProjects to Articles

    [edit]

    When I accept an arti0cle, the script asks me to assign it to WikiProjects. Sometimes the originator has already assigned WikiProjects to it in draft. Sometimes I know what WikiProjects the new article should be assigned to. But sometimes I am simply not familiar with the WikiProjects in the area. If I am not familiar with the categories in the area, as I usually am not, I tag the article with {{Improve categories}}, and gnomes are requested to assist by assigning the categories. Will the category gnomes also assign WikiProjects? Is there a way to tag a new article to request WikiProject assistance by gnomes? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Probably. Some (even here) would argue that tagging WikiProjects is unnecessary, and some are insistent that every page needs to be assigned to a WikiProject. If you can't think of who would want to be "assigned" a draft, don't feel obligated. There aren't any temples to request a WikiProject or to add a project template, but there are some people who relentlessly (or in the case of Ser Amantio, using an unregistered bot account) add WikiProjects, so it will likely be picked up by someone. Primefac (talk) 18:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Somewhat related - the AFCH script isn't playing nice with the new format of the wikiproject talk page banners and is generating a lot of ugly errors if multiple wikiprojects are added. If there isn't a ticket open for this on phab already, someone ought to start one. -- asilvering (talk) 18:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Does one of these tickets describe the issue? https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-helper/labels/draft-talk-page-wikitext –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's this one: [1]. Here's an example of it from one I accepted recently. -- asilvering (talk) 19:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's the primary one, but I will say that all of those are inter-connected issues that have cropped up over the years as the banner format and ideology has changed. I suspect a fix for one will likely include fixes for most if not all of them. Primefac (talk) 19:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Posted this as a separate thread... and only then read the above convo. When the submit wizard adds WikiProject tags to the draft talk page, these seem to be newly causing red error messages, see eg. Draft talk:Tony To Chin. The message asks for the banner shell to be added, and the ratings to be applied to the shell. I vaguely remember seeing somewhere that this was changing, so it could be the wizard needs updating to comply with whatever the new practice is? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    See Module talk:WikiProject banner § Warnings. I personally disagree with this change, and am fighting it. You are welcome to participate (or not) in the discussion, but just note that I am not necessarily advocating anyone do so (and they should probably mention that they were pointed to that discussion by me).
    That being said, yes, there is a ticket to update the wizard (along with a half-dozen other WPBS-related updates), see the link by Novem above. Primefac (talk) 11:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We really do need this project either to update the obsolete script or to stop using it. You have been given fair warning and plenty of notice about the changes in the assessment process... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I started an update tonight. It's located here. Comments welcome. I'll leave it open for a few days for code review. Please ping me in a few days to remind me to merge and deploy it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm glad this is being worked on. In the meantime, I think it crosses a line for MSGJ to be reverting the AFCH edits that produce these warnings (see Talk:Thomas F. Baumert for instance). Warnings are warnings, someone needs to fix them not revert them and sweep them under the rug. It is fine to feed the gnomes while this gets sorted. If the reviewer doesn't do the cleanup after a revert like this, information they added to the article during the accept is likely lost. ~Kvng (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed, removing valid projects and details because they are not in the current preferred formatting is ridiculous and if a new user did this they would be getting warnings for vandalism or disruptive editing. The new warnings do make it ugly as, but removing rather than fixing is disruptive that than constructive. WP:PIQA is about having a single assessment, it does not give any validity to remove other information in those banners. Surprised though that a bot had not come along and fixed up before the revert anyway. KylieTastic (talk) 14:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It looks like Qwerfjkl (bot) was approved to do these fixups, but looking in it's logs I can not see it doing it anymore. I only checked a few 1000 edits, I tried an edit summary search for "Task 26" but keep getting 502 bad gateway. Qwerfjkl should this be running, and should it have fixed up the AFCH tools bad formatting before it annoyed MSGJ? KylieTastic (talk) 14:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ┌──────────────────────────────┘
    KylieTastic, Cewbot runs on these pages (pinging operator kanashimi). — Qwerfjkltalk 15:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Qwerfjkl, if so that bot appears to be active adjusting those so probably just backlogged. Can you update User:Qwerfjkl (bot) page to show Task 26 as inactive. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. — Qwerfjkltalk 17:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    AFCH WikiProject banner patch is deployed

    [edit]

    Seconds ago I went ahead and deployed an AFCH patch that fixes 6 outstanding bugs related to the wikitext that AFCH writes to draft talk pages. These bugs all involved how AFCH wrote WikiProject banner code. Details can be found here. This patch will take effect in 10 minutes after the gadget cache clears.

    Please keep an eye on your draft talk diffs for a couple days for any problems. This was a complete rewrite of that part of the code, so new bugs may spring up. I would appreciate it if you could report diffs of bugs here. This is also a good time for me to work on these types of bugs while I have this particular code top of mind.

    This patch should hopefully resolve the problems MSGJ is encountering. Thanks all. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Good work Novem Linguae. I have been having quick looks at the code changes but not done a full review. It appears to be working so far example. KylieTastic (talk) KylieTastic (talk) 13:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmm, there's a blank |class= in that diff. Let's see if this fixes it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes it did - see this KylieTastic (talk) 14:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is looking great. Thanks for your work on this — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You're a hero. -- asilvering (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    |1=, moving up the WPAFC banner, OKA

    [edit]
    Hey Utopes. I see you adding |1= to some of the talk pages, and moving up the WPAFC banner on some of the talk pages. Are these edits necessary? If I am missing something let me know. I can always code AFCH to do these edits for you, if it is worth the effort. But it's my understanding that |1= isn't needed, and the order of WPAFC isn't too important. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Force of habit a bit, I've always had WPAFC as the first banner on a talk page among all the WikiProject banners (as that's often the most "relevant" towards the lifecycle of the draft-to-article). It felt (and still feels as of now) odd to see a WPAFC banner tucked between two other banners for content/material-related WikiProjs. So I've always ensured it's listed first, as it contains vital info about the status of the page when it was a draft, and useful for audits and etc. If that's not built into the gadget, that'd be a personal recommendation of mine to incorporate.
    Per Template:WikiProject banner shell#Parameters, "1=" is the parameter name so if I'm making multiple edits to the banner shell I tend to throw that in there too, adds a bit of clarity towards which param is which. I find it helpful, but it might not be for everyone, which is fair. Utopes (talk / cont) 22:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Since the AFCH banner has always (to my knowledge) been placed at the top, I think it's probably helpful if the revised script keeps doing that, since that's where people will look for it. Won't make much of a difference for most articles, but it will for those articles that have half a dozen wikiprojects on them. -- asilvering (talk) 22:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sounds good. Just now I patched and deployed both putting WPAFC on top, and adding |1=. I also tweaked the edit summary, and {{OKA}} is now added to the banner shell. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Novem Linguae: Fwiw the "1=" bit might not be super important in the grand scheme; I'm willing to align to whatever most banner shells use (with or without the "1="). That aspect is more on the cosmetic / aesthetic side so if nobody else is putting that on there, I won't either.
    Thanks for the prompt response though, and for prioritizing WPAFC at the top of the shell! o7 Utopes (talk / cont) 23:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Speaking of OKA though, I think I had a situation (at Talk:Katowice Załęże railway station, particularly) where there was a WP banner (AFC), followed by a translated-page template, followed by an OKA banner. I left all of the other banners alone due to the new functionality of the gadget, but would the AFCH capture all of that into the shell, or select only from a list of "approved" banners to shell-ify? Utopes (talk / cont) 23:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I spot checked about 8 articles and about half had |1=, and it made the shell more readable when the shell had a lot of parameters, so I decided to include |1=. I also checked around 5 OKA banner articles and about half had it in the shell, so I decided to write AFCH to include it in the shell from now on. The shellify algorithm grabs any template that starts with WikiProject, Football, or OKA, and I may add more to this list as needed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If it matters, the OKA template is a wikiproject template, as part of WP:ITW. -- asilvering (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I deployed again just now. Please keep an eye out for bugs. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Double decline notices

    [edit]
    I just got an odd one - double decline notices this KylieTastic (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks unrelated, but still always good to spot and report a bug. I went ahead and filed https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-helper/issues/377. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Auto-detected classes

    [edit]
    Please note that the banner shell does not like non-article classes (e.g. [2]). A genuine disambiguation page will be detected automatically and doesn't need any value in |class=. In this case, it was a set index article, so |class=list was appropriate. Thanks — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:40, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hey @MSGJ. What change do you recommend I make? At the moment the script user can pick from the following options. Should I delete some of these? Which ones? B, C, start, stub, list, disambig, template, redirect, portal, project, NA –Novem Linguae (talk) 17:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Could you restrict to the 9 standard grades on Wikipedia:Content assessment? I guess FA/FL/GA/A is unlikely or impossible for a new article so that leaves B, C, start, stub, list only. All the others are detected automatically — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
     Done. Thanks for reporting the bug. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    WikiProject Musician

    [edit]
    Many thanks Novem! Next issue - I don't know if you can do anything to improve this. When you add Musicians (example) it auto converts to Biography with |musician-work-group=yes (like this). If Biography was already there, then we now have a redundant banner which needs fixing — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't see how we can fix that as the issue was all post AFCH. We should have added the "WikiProject Biography" and the issue was first adding "WikiProject Musicians" without removing the now redundant "WikiProject Biography" (but an understandable editor issue). The main issue is with AnomieBOT that should have removed (or combined) the "WikiProject Biography" when converting the "WikiProject Musicians". Certainly should be logged as a bug but this one requires AnomieBOT to update not AFCH. Caveat: unless for some reason there is a magic parameter we can add to the first "WikiProject Biography" that makes AnomieBOT work later, but that would be obscure. 17:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC) KylieTastic (talk) 17:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I suppose AFCH shouldn't be placing WikiProject Musicians separately in the first place. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, my mistake I didn't notice that the update was also AFCH! Yes, so AFCH could fix the issue of conflicting WikiProjects. Although, AnomieBOT should also have been able to fix when change "WikiProject Musicians" to "WikiProject Biography" with musician-work-group=yes. KylieTastic (talk) 18:43, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    KylieTastic, well, all AnomieBOT is doing is auto-subst:ing the template. It doesn't know whether there's supposed to be multiple or not. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:53, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not an AFCH issue. I wouldn't expect an AFCH reviewer to know that {{WikiProject Musicians}} is a subst-only wrapper for {{WikiProject Biography}}, and thus I see no reason to implement a change that (if I am reading this correctly) would prevent someone from attempting to do so. We do have a bot-updated list of WikiProjects which is used to suggest WikiProjects to reviewers, so hopefully this was a short-term issue that will be resolved the next time the project list is updated (assuming these are being placed due to the suggested tags by the tool). Primefac (talk) 23:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I didn't see your reply just now so I wrote a patch for this here. This patch is invisible to the AFC reviewer. The reviewer can still pick WikiProject Musician and WikiProject Biography. The only difference is that AFCH with this patch would silently fix/consolidate the talk page wikicode. This is a bit of a corner case but is easy enough to fix. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Novem, the issue is that this isn't the only subst-only WikiProject banner. Genuinely out of curiosity, are you going to hard-code exceptions for every one of these templates? Primefac (talk) 00:39, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I could only find two. But yes, I did code exceptions for both of them in the above patch. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Eh... fair enough. If it's done and it's short that's fine, just wanting to make sure we're not coding for an exception and missing the rule (and if it's not obvious, I really do appreciate the work you put into this project; I mainly don't want to see you doing more than necessary!) Primefac (talk) 10:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If that list is kept up-to-date then great. I have just manually edited to remove musicians but I expect this may be overwritten by the bot. I'm wondering how the bot knows which banners are valid and which are not (Ahecht?) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    See the WikiProject_templates.json/blocklist.json needs admin or template editor perm to add. KylieTastic (talk) 07:51, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Or it could be WikiProject_templates.json/config.json as that also has a blocklist KylieTastic (talk) 07:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    From the code User:Ahechtbot/wikiprojects.js it looks like Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/WikiProject templates.json/config.json is the configuration it uses rather than blocklist.json KylieTastic (talk) 08:56, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Adding in an exception seems like a better (and more robust) solution than having to update the core module every time this sort of thing happens. Primefac (talk) 10:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Category

    [edit]

    Category:AfC submissions by date/21 August 2024 has not been created at timè of writing — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    It has been created at time of viewing. Primefac (talk) 11:59, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    These are normally created by EarwigBot a couple of days in advance, but the bot appears to have halted as it has not edited since the 17th. KylieTastic (talk) 12:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I've created User talk:The Earwig#EarwigBot might be down to hopefully alert the bot owner. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
     Fixed. Bot is back up. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Detecting CV without Earwig

    [edit]

    Earwig's Copyvio Detector had been crippled for several weeks now due to an issue with Google credit. How are you all getting your CV checks done? I've been running Earwig with the Use Search Engine option unchecked but is that good enough? ~Kvng (talk) 22:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, that's what I've been doing for the last couple weeks while the tool is getting worked on. I've also been manually copying and pasting strings of text into my search engine if I'm suspicious of a copyright violation that the tool hasn't picked up. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    AfC stats

    [edit]

    Is there a way to see how many articles I've accepted/declined? I'm pretty sure I saw a website with that sort of data, but I've lost it.

    Additionally, is there a way to see how the drafts backlog has shifted over time (through a graph)?

    (Unrelated, but I think a backlog drive should be organized soon-ish. Just feels right.) LR.127 (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    If you're on WP:AFCP you can click the "reviews" link next to your name. NPR and Admins can also view their stats by going to https://apersonbot.toolforge.org/afchistory/?user=XYZ where XYZ is their username. We have had various backlog stats over the years but currently graphs is out of commission and we do not have anything running currently. Primefac (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As for a drive, a couple of months ago I might have suggested one, also, when we were hovering (IIRC) around the 3.5-4K mark. Since then, we've been slowly but consistently coming down, and now are at < 2.5K, which is okay, IMO. (If anything, we could benefit from a quality assurance initiative of some sort, to check how well we're all adhering to the 'rules'.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We're not getting yelled at (right now anyway) for either declining too many or accepting too much, so that's one QA metric to go by. Primefac (talk) 10:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately the weekly stats stopped getting updated (because of the graphs issue) so I can't even do a manual graph to show the history trend. KylieTastic (talk) 11:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    At NPP, we got our backlog graph back up and running, by making our own bot and maybe also doing some data scraping using a Toolforge webservice. I also found Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Backlog chart/daily, which looks like a good format to plug into a bot, and which was turned off a few months ago but can be easily turned back on by editing User:MusikBot/CategoryCounter/Run. I'll talk to some tech people and see what I can do. Please ping me in a week if a nudge is needed :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Part 1 of getting our AFC backlog graph back is complete. @MPGuy2824 setup an off-wiki tool to track the # of unreviewed drafts each day, and this data can be consumed by a bot. https://npptech.toolforge.org/npp/data.php?type=unreviewedDrafts. Now I think @DreamRimmer is going to work on part 2 of this, getting a bot to place a backlog graph image and to update it frequently. This is similar to their BaranBOT task 3 so hopefully it won't be too much trouble. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Problem with terminology

    [edit]

    At the Teahouse, a colleague recently gave the advice: "Rejected means stop, don't go on. Declined means it might be accepted with revision."

    I'd love to know which dictionary makes this distinction. Or does it just exist in the minds of AfC reviewers? If so, please pick better terms, as the confusion between the two phrases quoted is a frequent cause of confusion among new editors commenting at The Teahouse and Help Desk. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    We've been using this wording since rejection was brought in to use in 2018. Yes, there is sometimes confusion about the terms, but it is easy enough to clarify as you just indicated above. Personally speaking, I find a much greater distinction between rejection and declination, where the former is a hard "you done fucked up" and the latter is more of a polite thing. Of course, this comes as a native English speaker; anecdotally most of the confusion seems to come from ESL speakers (and even more anecdotally, from India).
    As a minor point, coming in and insulting us straight off the bat is a really good way for us to get defensive; there are better ways to start a discussion. Primefac (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, to answer your asinine question, Merriam Webster gives:
    • decline often implies courteous refusal especially of offers or invitations.
    • reject implies a peremptory refusal by sending away or discarding.
    So yes, there is a lexicological difference. Primefac (talk) 11:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You're welcome to quote the insult you imagine I made, but meanwhile, I didn't say there was no difference in dictionary definitions; I asked which dictionary made the distinction which I quoted. I note you have no source for that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You know as well as I do that such a thing doesn't exist; the words are different, and have been used to mean different things by this WikiProject for six years now. The fact that one user has come up with (in my opinion) a short and simple way of remembering those differences does not mean they are wrong. Primefac (talk) 12:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "used to mean different things by this WikiProject" Indeed. This is exactly the problem which I seek to resolve. You've already acknowledged that "there is sometimes confusion", and that there is cultural bias in the jargon being used. You have advanced no argument (except, perhaps one equating to "we have always done it this way") why the status quo offers more benefits than does fixing the issue. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That's mostly because I wasn't trying; that is not how you phrased your initial post and not what you appeared to be looking for. Primefac (talk) 12:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Primefac, I think asinine is too strong a word, although your defensive response is understandable. User:Pigsonthewing, it seems like the confusion is on your end because you don't quite grasp the AFC process and terminologies. Instead of asking for clarification or seeking help to understand the terms, you jumped to conclusions with your question, implying that the phrases in question only exist in the minds of AFC reviewers. Really?
    To clarify, "rejection" as it was already explained by Primefac, applies to drafts that are not notable and will not be for the time being, or falls under WP:WWIN to thr sight of God and man, and it's given no option for resubmission except in rare cases of re-review. "Decline" means the draft fails to meet the WP:AFCSTANDARDS. Perhaps, hed suggest that the decline message should exclude Teahouse as where to ai question about the decline to avoid all this confusion, as some editors from there seem to misinterpret AFC wording and try to favor unintentionally non-notable drafts in the name of fighting for new cheated editors. Next time, please ask questions instead of making assumptions or final conclusions. Cheers! Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 12:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no confusion on my part, and no assumptions. I fully understand the process; having both submitted articles via AfC and reviewed and rejected and published others' submissions. The confusion is experienced - frequently experienced, as I said - by the people to whom I referred; not least the individual to whom the quoted advice was given. But thank you for confirming my point, that the distinction is internal to AfC. That, no doubt, is why it is often misunderstood by people new to it, and why less ambiguous phraseology will benefit all concerned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC).[reply]
    If you have an alternate suggestion, I'm all ears (and yes, this is a genuine statement, not sarcasm). Primefac (talk) 12:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Find an alternate phrase instead of "Declined"; one which actually relates to what is being done - maybe "Referred for further work". I'm not precious about the exact phrase, nor clear whether a single-word verb is needed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This comes up semi-regularly but I've not yet seen a suggestion that gets more approval that the status-quo. "Referred for further work" along with similar suggestion is often criticised for suggesting that with further work it will get accepted which is often not true. Declined (or its replacement) has to say that it may or may not be acceptable with more work. Note that the notice posted on the submitters page does not even mention the word decline. The message on the submission does though but explains the issue - people just don't/won't read what it says. A lot of the time submitters ask why a submission was "rejected" when it was declined and I think regardless of what wording is used for a declined draft they will still see, and refer to it, as a rejection, which is what happened in this case. KylieTastic (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "This comes up semi-regularly" I'm not surprised. As I say, the confusion occurs frequently.
    "criticised for suggesting that with further work it will get accepted" Is there ever a case where an article is "declined" without a prose comment suggesting or implying that further work should be done? If not, the objection seems spurious.
    "Declined (or its replacement) has to say that it may or may not be acceptable" Isn't that the job of the prose component? The word "Declined" does not say that.
    "A lot of the time submitters ask why a submission was "rejected" when it was declined" This again reiterates my point - to most people, the two words are close synonyms. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think there's too much wrong with the terminology. Yes, it may be that it's no immediately obvious to a newbie, but then neither is the difference between 'page' and 'article', or that between AfC and AfD, or any number of terms of the trade. Until the meaning is explained to you, and then it's usually clear; it's called learning the ropes. Of the million things one needs to learn about Wikipedia, I don't see this one as a biggie. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:00, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I have taken the liberty of improving the iconography on the reject talk page message to use the same more emphatic stop icon used on the draft page. This should help especially if this is an ESL issue. ~Kvng (talk) 15:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    In the two days since I raised the matter here, I have seen at east three more editors, at the Teahouse or Help Desk, who are confused by this issue. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Got any ideas for new terms? I can't think of anything better than decline and reject. Could change the two terms to "fix and resubmit" and "do not resubmit", but then those don't work well as nouns. "Your articles for creation submission has been tagged as 'do not resubmit'" is a bit of a mouthful. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ""Got any ideas for new terms? - Yes, answered above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Is your proposal to change declined to "Referred for further work"? What do you propose changing rejected to? –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Separately, I suggest unchecking Teahouse for editors whose drafts have been reviewed and declined/rejected. What they always ask is about their draft's review and ways to improve it. Both AFC helpdesk and Teahouse should re-examine the draft and corresponding decline or reject messages when providing feedback right? @Pigsonthewing, I understand your point, but my concern is that we need to focus on constructive guidance, such as giving additional sources, ways to delete peacock-promotional language, etc., rather than simply knowing whether a draft was rejected or declined. In this context, 'decline' is a more suitable term for not accepting a submission, whereas 'reject' comes across as more absolute and dismissive, implying 'this can never be accepted'. On another note, reject gives no room for resubmission while decline does, hence if one says their draft was rejected but actually, was declined, it isn't a problem. What they need is how to go further. It can then be a different case if it was actually rejected, then tell the editor that there is no room for resubmission with reasons. Is that a big deal? Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 13:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Philosophically, probably not a big deal, but I believe the concern here is that there is any confusion in the first place. I understand where Andy's coming from, but unless someone can come up with a more clear (but still as succinct) way of separating this "decline/reject" issue I think TEA helpers will just have to include the explanation in their answer. Primefac (talk) 13:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not so: some confusion is inevitable. The concern is that there is frequent - and avoidable - confusion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, I have a related question - how is this confusion dealt with? If someone comes to TEA with a declined draft and they say "my draft was rejected, help!" do they still receive help, or is the knee-jerk reply from the first helper "your draft was rejected you can't do anything about that"? Like... if someone says the wrong word, and the person helping them knows they used the wrong word, do they still try to give advice? Primefac (talk) 15:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    They get helpful advice, of course. First to clear up the confusion caused by the terminology, and then, to address the reason for the draft not being published. The former, in addition to being an unnecessary cognitive load on the new editors, is an unnecessary burden on Teahouse volunteers. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:49, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "'decline' is a more suitable term for not accepting a submission, whereas 'reject' comes across as more absolute and dismissive" - to most people it does not, as I again addressed above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Andy, look at what I am saying: it's still not bad advising a rejected draft, it can help the editor and may not for the draft anymore. However, Teahouse is to help editors right? It serves as a general help guide to the editors to know what -and-what to do to the drat and subsequent articles. If someone says "my draft was rejected (though it was declined)", won't you help? If another says "my draft was rejected (though it was rejected)", won't you also help? At this point, I think it is not due for change because it serves as a general term out here: decline equals to reject. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 16:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't disagree with your former point; but the issue you discuss is not what I am talking about. Your last sentence, however, makes no sense, since AFC folk keep telling us that the two terms do have different meanings. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I was referring to what outside folk will think about: decline equals reject. I don't seem to find what you said is the best to replace. Can I see it here? Thanks. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 17:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    See what? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Wikipedia for Hailey Gordon

    [edit]

    Hello, how would one go about requesting the creation of a Wikipedia page for an athlete? I’m interested in the wikipedia for Hailey Gordon- Mexico national team soccer player. 2605:C840:403:55D8:B97C:19CE:A6C:F050 (talk) 01:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    We don't really have an article writing service. (It's WP:RA but no one uses it.) Your best bet is to write a draft yourself using the article wizard. Before you start writing though, you should do a search for newspaper articles and/or books covering this player in depth. If such sources don't exist, then this player doesn't pass WP:GNG and won't qualify for an article. If you provide links to some sources, WP:TEAHOUSE can help with advice on whether or not this person passes GNG. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Major article wizard malfunction on talk page

    [edit]

    Adding talk page classification tags through the submission wizard adds them as plain templates without the shell, which immediately produced error messages as with this diff. Looking through recent submissions this seems to be affecting everyone. Orchastrattor (talk) 23:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    cc SD0001. I think the fix is to wrap the banners in {{WikiProject Banner Shell|. I recently updated AFCH to do this. For coding simplicity, I even wrap single banners in the banner shell. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:01, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-submit-wizard/issues/1 if anyone wants to implement.
    I'm not sure why the banners are emitting errors even when they have no class param specified. In the meantime, it looks they'll be automatically fixed by Cewbot. – SD0001 (talk) 07:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    See this discussion: despite being objected to, the change to make these errors show up still persists. Primefac (talk) 13:15, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I imagine the goal of the error message is to reduce the # of articles in Category:WikiProject banners without banner shells that need manual cleanup. In that sense, the error message is probably working well. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It is, but there's a bot that's sorting that stuff out. The huge error message is unnecessary, never mind the fact that it's not required (though I do recognise there is a growing consensus to use WPBS which I am happy to respect). Primefac (talk) 15:35, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think its because the templates automatically try to enter "draft" as their class, the diff I provided stopped showing errors once it was accepted and just moved into unclassified instead. Orchastrattor (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    A Template Foible

    [edit]

    Please look at Draft:Comet C/2023 V4 (Camarasa-Duszanowicz) assuming it is currently unreviewed.

    The bottom line in the yellow "Please review me" box says:

    "Warning: This page should probably be located at Draft:2023 V4 (Camarasa-Duszanowicz) (move)."

    This has changed the word order of the (current) draft title, and removed the "/".

    I'm not at all sure that this is important but it is worthy of mention.

    If you happen to review the draft as well that works, too! 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 10:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    In other words, the / is causing it to think this is a subpage of 'Comet C'. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, it's a namespace check, which is supposed to be for when it's in a sandbox or other user subpage. See line 46 of Template:AfC submission/tools. Not sure the check in the draft space is strictly necessary (will think about it). Primefac (talk) 13:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Cynthia F. Moss

    [edit]

    This is a different acceptance, and I'm happy to take your comments on it.

    The draft appears to have been part of a student project that ended in April this year. No editors who edited it have been active since then. Declining it, as I did at first, was just going to see this go im six months as a G13

    Since none of "the original team" appear to remain I decided to unroll a larger team - the community as whole. So I migrated the AFC comments I'd just left to the talk page and accepted it, tagging it for cleanup.

    This leads me to the question I want to pose to you. Should we rip our way through the oldest drafts on this type of basis pretty much as a matter of course, pushing anything just better than the borderline up to mainspace with a detailed set of comments on what we feel needs to be done (unless we choose to do those things ourselves)?

    If we took a few each every other day we'd probably not need another backlog drive! 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 20:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Since this is a likely WP:NPROF pass at AfD, I would have accepted (and tagged) it if I'd come across it, myself. But if you've got anything that looks both borderline and abandoned, and it's about anything related to women, I've had some great success posting short lists of that kind of thing at WP:WIRED. Also, many people on that project are real wizards when it comes to historical newspaper searches, so if no one there manages to find evidence of notability, I feel reasonably confident that no one else could, either. -- asilvering (talk) 22:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    12 pages in the unassessed AFC backlog remain up for grabs

    [edit]

    ...and from the moment of this writing, they may not be long for Wikipedia in the next how many weeks unless some action is taken. After I spent countless days grading hundreds and hundreds of articles in an ambitious, thankless one-man task--a few of which were never attended to since the early 2010s--it's time we finally discussed their chances for a change before it's too soon.

    At press time, two in the backlog--Nathaniel Jenkins and Prateek Raj, both BLPs--are under scrutiny at AFD; no further comments on those. Anyway, on with the chaff we found within the wheat--listed alphabetically. (All have been tagged for {{notability}} unless otherwise noted; tag dates, and source-hunting links, are provided next to their titles.)

    As an eventualist/incrementalist, I may be a bit sorry if they end up delisted. But these topics, diverse as they may be, do matter to someone, somewhere. So as it stands, wishing those willing to save those topics good luck--and thanks to the AFC reviewers/participants alike for all your hard work. (Feel free to leave me talk-page feedback.)

    Maybe it's time I, an AFC drafter myself, took brief breaks from WP as other off-site commitments compete for my time and attention. All that grading was already overwhelming to begin with... --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 15:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Are these just 12 AFC accepts that have not been rated? And you are asking for us to rate them on the talk page in the banner shell? –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not yet rated, and in need of viable sources. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 22:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, I rated them all. Not sure if this is really an AFC matter. Some of these articles are years old. Once they pass AFC, then it's usually up to gnomes to rate them, the draft author and WP:ARS to try to save them if they're nominated for deletion, etc. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:34, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    To clarify, I was asking for others to add reliable sources to those articles or nominate them for deletion if unsuccessful, not rate them. Hope you understood. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 00:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    They've passed both AFC and NPP, so this may be outside of our scope. But I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:48, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    Add NPP, search engine indexing in TM:AfC accept

    [edit]

    The template that is posted on the submitter's talk page when their draft is accepted Template:AfC accept does not have a mention of the fact that an article has to be reviewed by a WP:NPPer to be indexed in search engines. I see many people coming to help forums asking about why their page doesn't appear in Google/Bing search results. It could also be demotivating to see that their article has less viewership due to them not showing up in general search engines. Ca talk to me! 07:37, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm kinda split on this. On the one hand, you're right, and more information could be helpful. On the other hand... they can't really do anything about it, and my default reply for the last ten years helping out on IRC has been "we have no control over search engines". Is it better or worse for us to say "thanks for waiting 3 months for us to review your draft, now wait up to another 3 months for us to patrol it so it can be indexed!" Primefac (talk) 10:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would certainly be happier to learn that my article will be indexed in a forseeable timeframe rather than seemingly never. Ca talk to me! 10:43, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am split too, but my worry is that the new editors would start badgering WT:NPP to get their articles reviewed if WP:NPP is linked directly. – robertsky (talk) 11:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    My concern whenever I see this is why are they asking? I usually see it as a red flag that they are trying to use Wikipedia for promotion in some way. I would be happy to see a note saying something like "Please note we have no control over search engines" (which I admit is a bit of a lie as we do control asking them not to index some things), but I don't think we should point them to patrolling/NPP. KylieTastic (talk) 11:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Proposed text: "For content moderation purposes, all new articles are not indexable by search engines for up to three months while the editing community collectively review new articles, including this, for infringements of Wikipedia's core content policies. We have no control over how search engines may index the new articles beyond the 3-month hold." – robertsky (talk) 12:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    How about this?
    "Your article would not be indexed on search engines until New Page Patrollers review your article or after 3 months, whichever is first. We have no control over search engines results beyond the 3-month hold." Ca talk to me! 13:04, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    drafts are too long

    [edit]

    Could the new authors be pointed to something like

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MyPage/sandbox?action=edit&preload=User:Gryllida/NewArticleBLPv1/preload

    to demonstrate notability before they start a full draft? Maybe it was discussed before I did not have the capacity to check the prior discussions, sorry. Please advise. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:32, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    (I am helping on irc, I have not been formally reviewing for a while, though did that previously) Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    (If the link does not work for you because you already have a sandbox, try [3] instead) Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:43, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree it would be better we did not get extremely long submissions aimed more about showing notability, but I don't like the limitation to be "one paragraph (80 words maximum)". I would prefer drafts to be up to Start-class rather than Stub-class, I like to see articles 200-1000 words long. However, I agree things like Draft:Tulunid Emirate do tend to sit in the !queue longer probably due to length (16,915 words) and number of sources (140) and do clog up the process. KylieTastic (talk) 11:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "200-300" then? They need to not get carried away to write full page. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 11:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation&oldid=1243985367"