Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China

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WikiProject China (Rated NA-class)
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ZHWNB (merged with WPCHINA) 2005 2006 2007–2012 --
WPCHINA 2006 January–December -- -- --
WPCHINA 2007 January–March April–June July–September October–December
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WPCHINA 2010 January–March April–June July–September October–December

If anyone over here has some free time[edit]

the English language sources and both Chinese wikis disagree completely on the name for Yuanju (Yuanqu? Wanqu?): see here. Presumably, the Chinese are right about this and the laowais are wrong but, since neither Baidu Baike nor the Chinese wiki rely overmuch on citations, it'd be nice to have something authoritative to start correcting the mistake. Anyone here have anything? — LlywelynII 01:01, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Talk:List of Korean Nobel laureates#Requested move 31 January 2018[edit]

Greetings! I have recently listed a requested move discussion at Talk:List of Korean Nobel laureates#Requested move 31 January 2018, regarding a page relating to this WikiProject. Discussion and opinions are invited. Thanks, ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 06:44, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

The Chinese article "List of Chinese Nobel laureates" is the same situation. A user removed all laureates other than Chinese nationality.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 06:44, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Translation of the names of prefecture-level cities (地级市)[edit]

Are there any guidelines for translating names of different administrative divisions, particularly prefecture-level cities? For example, how should 鄂尔多斯市 be translated? User:LlywelynII has been using "Ordos Prefecture" and the like, but I think this usage is uncommon ("Ordos City" vs. "Ordos Prefecture"; "Meizhou City" vs. "Meizhou Prefecture") and not reflective of 市 in the Chinese. When I see "prefecture" for a prefecture-level city, I've been changing them to "city" or removing the division name altogether. Also see this discussion at Wiktionary. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:05, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

地级市 is almost always translated as prefecture-level city. "Prefecture" is incorrect. Many prefecture-level cities were former prefectures (地区), and the prefecture-level city designation is considered an upgrade in status, connoting a higher level of development. This is an important distinction. -Zanhe (talk) 18:48, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
@Zanhe: Thanks for your response! Edits like this and this should be appropriate, right? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:55, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: Yes, I agree with these edits. -Zanhe (talk) 03:17, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I basically agree with Zanhe. If it were up to me, I might translate 地级市 as prefecture, but there seems to be a generally accepted convention to make prefecture-level city. – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 01:16, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Subject identification[edit]

Can a project member identify the subject of this statue, installed in Shanghai's New Town Central Park? ---Another Believer (Talk) 04:14, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

That is a statue of Ma Zhanshan, a Chinese general that fought against the Japanese. Heights(Want to talk?) 04:26, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. I went ahead and started a discussion at Talk:Ma_Zhanshan#Statue re: whether or not the statue should be mentioned and/or the image added. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:46, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
I have commented at the article talk page. Alex Shih (talk) 04:49, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Notability of Draft:Beini Da?[edit]

Can anyone weigh in as to the Notability of Draft:Beini Da? All the references are in Chinese. If you have an opinion either way, please post it and sign it at the top of the Draft itself. Thanks! MatthewVanitas (talk) 00:52, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

She appears to be more of a internet celebrity, more known for notoriety rather than notability; at the current state the draft is more likely to be deleted again, rather than passed for AfC. Alex Shih (talk) 04:57, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Is the figurative meaning of 萬/万 ("a great many") WP:BLUE?[edit]

I've been working on a new article at Interpretation of the title of the Man'yōshū (once it's "complete" I'll move onto the next sub-topic, then summarize all of them in the main Man'yōshū hub article, which I think is how everything on Wikipedia probably should work), but my Japanese sources (which work with Chinese sources because Nara period) don't really come out and say "ten thousand really just means a whole lot" as often as I would like, presumably because it's implied.

Does this seem like the kind of thing an English Wikipedia could include in an uncited footnote along the lines of The character literally means ten thousand but figuratively means "a great many", similar to the English myriad.?

Posting this as well on WT:JAPAN since the question is kinda relevant to both and I have no idea which venue would welcome the most input.

Hijiri 88 (やや) 10:31, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

No, I don't think this would be at all obvious to the average English Wikipedia reader of reasonable education (our general target audience). In the purely Sinological literature there is some inconsistency in terms of how they handle the "ten thousand" – authors sometimes render it "myriad" or similar, but many stay literal with it (this can be an issue with "nine", as well, in some of the more archaic texts). A lot of this has to do with context. I'd avoid a one-size-fits-all translation of the term and just try to follow whatever the reliable sources go with. See, for example, Stephen Owen (1996), An Anthology of Chinese Literature: Beginnings to 1911 (New York: W. W. Norton & Co.): pp. xliv–xlv.  White Whirlwind  咨  16:19, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
@White whirlwind: You're right, but that solution would involve careful pondering of how to translate every time it comes up; which in that article is very frequent, even though it always means "a lot" and never literally "ten thousand". 萬世 actually seems to just mean "forever", while 萬葉 with 葉 metaphorically referring to a poem would be prosaicly rendered as "4,516 poems" (the exact number included in the Nishihonganji text). I am considering adding a footnote to near the top of the article (and expecting the reader to read it!) that would clarify this dual-meaning of that character so that I can then just say either "ten-thousand" or "myriad" each time and expect the reader to understand, but I'm looking for input from folks here whether the dictionary definition of 萬/万 requires a citation for such a footnote. The sources I'm working with at the moment are in Japanese and appear to treat it as a given, because I'm pretty sure their readership already know it. The reason I can't just ignore the "Ten Thousand" and translate it figuratively throughout is that eventually the article is going to have to mention English translations and this is one of the most prominent. Hijiri 88 (やや) 01:44, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
@Hijiri88: I've often remarked that, in my opinion, if it's hard to find good sources on something in English, that's usually evidence that it's going to have WP:Notability problems on the English Wikipedia. In any case, sure, if you can't find a note on the title in something, just cite a good dictionary and pray to the gods of WP:Original research. I did a quick search of vol. 1 of the Cambridge History of Japan and didn't find anything. Try the literature volume (it came out in 2016 and I don't have an electronic copy of it like I do most of that series) or maybe Konishi.  White Whirlwind  咨  03:35, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
Well, I imagine Konishi in Japanese has the same problem as the other Japanese sources, and I don't have 16,000 yen to fork over for an antique copy of Konishi in English. I have a paper copy of Keene at home, who I think devotes a page or two to the subject of the title of the Man'yōshū so I'll check if he makes the point directly anyway. I don't think it'll ever be a notability issue though, since anything that has had multiple papers written on it and been the subject of scholarly debate going centuries is almost certainly meriting a standalone article. I'm just being lazy/cheap about tracking down a source that would solve my problem quickly, but it's not even really a problem that needs to be solved, at least in the short term. If I ever nominate the main MYS article for FA status, then maybe, but that is long term, and would by its nature be a collaborative process (so someone who lives nearer an Anglophone university library could probably do). Hijiri 88 (やや) 04:18, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Romanization Chinese names in passing references in primarily non-Chinese articles?[edit]

I was just reading our World War I article, and it features the curious Japan seized Germany's Micronesian colonies and, after the Siege of Tsingtao, the German coaling port of Qingdao on the Chinese Shandong peninsula. As Vienna refused to withdraw the Austro-Hungarian cruiser SMS Kaiserin Elisabeth from Tsingtao, Japan declared war not only on Germany, but also on Austria-Hungary; the ship participated in the defense of Tsingtao where it was sunk in November 1914. The inconsistent spelling of [Ts/Q]ing[t/d]ao is likely to confuse readers not familiar with Chinese romanization. I was gonna just replace the WG with pinyin, but Siege of Tsingtao is the name of a linked article; I then considered just changing the one out-of-place use of "Qingdao" to "Tsingtao", but that would be internally inconsistent with "Shandong" only four words later, and with MOS:CHINA. Thoughts? Hijiri 88 (やや) 09:35, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

I think this is one case where making the spelling consistent with the historic spelling makes sense. As the article makes clear Tsingtao is not just historic but a still used alternate name, used in the postal romanisation and seen in the name of the beer and brewery. As World War I is a historic article it makes sense to use the names as they were used then, and pinyin did not exist at the time and would not be devised for another few decades.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 09:49, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
Well, yeah, but then should it be "Shantung"? Hijiri 88 (やや) 10:00, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
That could just be removed. You don’t normally give the county when mentioning a British city, or the state when mentioning a US city. So just "Tsingtao, China" in enough to clearly identify it. Readers can click on the link if they want to know where it is, which province it’s in.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 12:02, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
I think it would be better to explain that Tsingtao=Qingdao, which is more or less done now, and change the other two Tsingtao's to Qingdao. We routinely use the current spelling in historical articles because it's easier for readers to make connections. I would also keep Shandong peninsula, as geographical references are useful in war articles. Kanguole 13:28, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
I've tried to get around this by doing things like "in Tsingtao (modern Qingdao)" or "in Peking (modern Beijing)", since the use of an older romanization necessarily entails an older era of a city's history.  White Whirlwind  咨  15:34, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
My approach is similar to what has been suggested by White whirlwind. In this sentence, I would say "German coaling port of Tsingtao (modern Qingdao)", which would make everything else that follows consistent, I think. Alex Shih (talk) 04:32, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Zhu Benli.[edit]

Zhu Benli is the last emperor of Southern Ming. He was a soli lawful Ming emperor in 1662-1664. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharouser (talkcontribs) 05:56, 13 February 2018 (UTC)