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The assessment of categories and articles - May 2007

A start is made with the assement of categories and articles in the field of Systems. From this information a bot every day updates the article statistic shown on the WikiProject Systems page.

The rating of quality and importance

The rating of quality are made according to general assesment rules. The importance rating however is made from the WikiProject Systems point of view. So this important rating is relative. It tells about the importance the article has in the field of Systems. This rating in fact tells about the place the article or category has in the global structure in Systems, Systems theories and Systems scientists.

For further questions ask here, or ask directly to Mdd 21:55, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


The relation between chaos theory, systems and systems theory - June 2007

This talk originaly started on the Talk:Chaos theory page

The importance rate of this article ((chaos theory)) for the WikiProject Systems has been uprated from high to top allready two weeks ago on 10 June 2007. I could have referted it because importance rates are set by the WikiProjects themselves and these rates have a particular objective meaning: The importance rate is not about the objective importance of the article, but of the relative difference from the article to the hart of the WikiProject. Now formaly the hart of the WikiProject Systems is in a way the category:systems. The items in this category get a top-importance, the items in the first subcategories are of high-importance.

Instead of referting this I kept wondering about the relation between chaos theory and systems and systems theory. Is or isn't chaos theory in the first place about chaos and not about systems. And aren't systems in the first place about organization and not about chaos? I know a bit more about systems theory, a little about chaos theory but even less about the role of systems and systems theory in chaos theory. Can somebody explain this to me? - Mdd 19:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't really answer the question, and would encourage others to do so, because it is an interesting and important question, but I should make some comments about changing the ratings.
  • First of all, I shouldn't have changed the systems theory importance rating, because this is the importance of the article for WikiProject Systems, and I don't know how that project assigns these ratings. Please change it back to "High" if you think it is appropriate: different projects can of course have different ratings for the same article.
  • Second, some background. At the Mathematics WikiProject, we are finding that too many articles are getting Mid and High importance ratings compared to Top and Low. In particular, this makes it harder to prioritise which Stub and Start-Class articles at the top end most need expansion. So we have been trying to improve the situation, and have developed more detailed importance criteria to help us.
  • Third, my changes here. I uprated the Mathematics importance from High to Top (by the above reasoning). Now, WikiProject physics is rather inactive right now, and I figured this article is at least as important in physics as maths, so uprated the physics importance too. Then I went a bit far by thinking "Well, if it is top for maths and physics, it probably is for systems too"!
  • Fourth, a comment. From what you have said, I understand that WikiProject Systems assesses importance in an absolute sense, i.e., only the main items in Category:Systems can hope to be top priority and so on. We discussed this quite a lot at the mathematics project, and have come to the conclusion that:
    • it is more helpful to assess the importance of an article within context rather than in absolute terms
    • Wikipedia 1.0 actually recommends this approach.
Now I am very impressed that your response to my mistake was not to revert it, but to think about it and raise such interesting questions. Maybe you might want to take some of the maths project thoughts on importance ratings back to WikiProject Systems and initiate a debate. All the best, anyway. Geometry guy 20:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

More about assessment of articles

I moved the above discussion here, because it offers some interesting thoughts about the assessment of articles. First of all thanks Geometry guy for your explaination and some explaination of how the WikiProject Mathematics works. I can imagine that those problems are much bigger at Mathematics, not at the least because the WikiProject Mathematics holds about is ten times more article then our WikiProject. And I can image that this brings the needs a more detailled assement. I however also experienced some things you mentioned about little top and low priority articles. To be through... I've been very carefull with the top-priority articles. And I avoid assessing articles to a low priority, because I think that the name low priority is demotivating. I wish they think of a better name for it.

I also experienced, that rating articles is not as easy as it seems. You need a clear set of rules to make it make any sence. I made an announcements about it on 1 may 2007, see [1]. Here I explained the rating of importance a little different then above:

  • The rating of importance is an other story. You can rate the articles from None, Low, Mid, High to Top. This rating is however made from a WikiProject Systems point of view. So this important rating is relative. It tells about the importance the article has in the field of Systems. In fact, this rating tells about the place the article or category has in the global structure in field of Systems, Systems theories and Systems scientists.

For the moment this works for me... This is however not a rule, but more a kind of guideline. With the WikiProject just starting, assessment remains interesting but is also one of the least of our problems. The reason I started this talk in the first place was the opportunity the small incindent gave to look at these things in an other perspective. - Mdd 22:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

A few further comments from me.
  • You have made a good start! One of the best ways to assess articles is to compare them with other assessed articles, so starting up is the most difficult bit. It is quite good that one person has rated the first batch, because this means there should be some consistency: the "precedent" has been set.
  • I can see that there are very few low importance articles at the moment. I would not worry too much about this to start with, because of selection bias (i.e., the most important articles get rated first).
  • Assessing importance within the whole systems category is also fine to start with, but as the project grows, discrimination is lost between articles in more specialized subcategories.
  • At mathematics, we've tried to make it easier to rate articles as "low" in a couple of ways: first we have switched from using "low importance" to "low priority"; second, we've modified slightly the WP 1.0 importance criteria, so that the description of "low" is a bit more encouraging, and the description of "mid" is a bit stronger.
Keep up the good work! Geometry guy 13:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure that systems and systems theory can be said to have a role in chaos theory. I think it is rather the other way around; chaos theory has a role in systems and systems theory (from chaos emerges order and/or a system). In economics, notably, this is exposed through the concept of spontaneous order. See also Complex system#Complexity and chaos theory which has some info, although probably not perfect. --Childhood's End 13:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Childhood's End, I copied your contribution to the Talk:Chaos theory page, and give an respons over there. I want to keep this talk item here specific about the assessment of articles. - Mdd 14:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

@Geometry guy. It's interesting what you say about switching from using "low importance" to "low priority". But I don't understand it. If I use the low-rate in the WikiProject Systems-template, for example Talk:Manufacturing Execution System: the template show low-importance and not low-priority. Now I found an example of what you mean at Talk:Infinite monkey theorem. This looks kind of nicer. Do you know if there is an easy way to change our template as well? - Mdd 14:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is tempory proceeding on the WikiProject Systems talk page


Further Assessment of Systems science articles - May 2008

Jiuguang Wang has recently brought a lot of articles in the field of control theory under the scope of this WikiProject, by tagging them with the {{WikiProject Systems}} tag on the articles talkpage. In response I assessed these about 100 articles and made some wikification here and there.

Now I think some further assessment of Systems science articles is possible of:

  1. All articles within the different fields of systems science.
  2. All systems discribed in Wikipedia.

The first option means a few hunderd articles, the second a few thousand. I will begin with the first option and will leave the second option for the moment. -- Mdd (talk) 13:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I started tagging all (related) articles in the:
And added about 260 extra articles. -- Mdd (talk) 21:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I continued with all (related) articles in the:
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Systems Reassessment

The update of the WikiProject Systems article template will require and reassessment of all WikiProject Systems articles.

This reassessment can be related to the new "Overview of the field of Systems science".

  • All fields mentioned here can be assessed as top-importance
  • All subfields mentioned can be assessed as high-importance

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 20:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Further assessment and reassessment

I started some reassessment here and there to check if the new assessment system works. More structured assessment have been done in the following items:

I created a new

And I started assessing Systems lists from here. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Category:List-Class Systems articles

I assessed all (known to me) lists in the field of systems and systems science using the Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/List of systems#Listings of specific systems.

As a result the Category:List-Class Systems articles now lists about 63 pages.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


Updating the {{WikiProject Systems}} to a {{sys rating}} with fields - May 2008

{{WikiProject Systems}}

The current WikiProject Systems Assessment doens't make a difference in fields. Now I think this assessment can be updated with an extra "Field dimension", similair as the assessment in the WikiProject Mathematics, see here.

The fields that could be divided are:

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 11:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

A start

This change will require an update of the whole WikiProject assessment structure. As a start a created the Template:WP SYS 1.0 from the Template:WP MATH 1.0 as example.

Template:WP SYS 1.0

This template gives a first impression of all the new things to be done. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I continued with the mayor page:
And with some other pages:
And a few dozend others.
There are maybe still a few dozend articles to go here.
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

A new {{Sys rating}} template

I also started developing a new {{Sys rating}} template -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 13:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

{{sys rating}}

Further comments:

Still serious attention is needed in:

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 15:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Structure

Today I tryed to complete the necessary Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Structure. The things still missing at the moment are:

Additional ratings fields

Each of these pages, except for the Mathematicians page, has /Top, /High, /Mid, /Low and /Unassessed subpages which list the articles in that field with the given importance (or priority) rating.

Articles by quality pages
General templates used by the project
Technical project templates

Now I think these pages are not really necessary to get the thing running. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


Neural network related articles in WikiProject Systems - May 2008

The beginning here is copied from the User talk:Mdd page

Hi Marcel - I was reading artificial neural network and I noticed that none of the neural network related articles belong in a WikiProject - do you think it is appropriate to add them to WikiProject Systems? They would fall into intelligent control, naturally, but a lot of the topics under neural networks isn't particularly control-related (like the mathematics based optimization articles). --Jiuguang Wang (talk) 00:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. With the further assessment of WikiProject Systems I recently ran into similair cases, for example the Category:Artificial intelligence and the Category:Ergonomics. Now you are talking about the articles in the Category:Neural networks, which I allready mentioned above as a category in the field of cybernetics. Now first some a few general things:
There is a general problem here where to draw the line or boundaries of the WikiProject Systems, the field of Systems science and all particulair fields of systems science, like control theory and cybernetics. Now there are a few guidelines:
  1. Bring them (partly) under the WikiProject Systems
  2. Bring them (partly) under an other related WikiProject.
  3. Initiated a WikiProject for that particulair field.
Now the third option is for the long run. What we can do is look at the related categories in the field of control theory, because you are (here) the expert in that field.
Now in the field of control theory there are a few categories to consider:
Now you have asked me if the artificial neural network related articles should be assessed to the WikiProject Systems? My answer is that we should consider the whole category. In return I want to ask you, if you think the above 5 categories should be assessed in the field of control theory of the WikiProject Systems or maybe in some other WikiProjects? -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
P.S. You must have noticed I reassessed a lot of articles in the field of control theory. As a result I raised the importance of almost all articles with one step, because of the introduction of the field of control theory!?
I'm rather conflicted at the moment. I definitely think artificial intelligence and computational intelligence should have a separate WikiProject (which include Category:Neural networks)...but that's a more long time goal, as you said. I'd have to think about the remaining four categories. --Jiuguang Wang (talk) 13:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Good thinking. As a start we can make artificial intelligence a separate field within the Wikiproject Systems. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


Part of the new Assessment structure removed - June 2008

I removed the 144 titles from wikipedia and from your watchlist):

  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/A-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/B-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Bplus-Class mathematics articles (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Chaos theory/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class page format (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class page format linked (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class page format transcluded (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class subpage format (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class table row format (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Class table row header (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Control theory/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Cybernetics/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Dynamical systems/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/FA-Class Systems articles (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/FA-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Field page format linked (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Field page format transcluded (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Field subpage format (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Fields (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Frequently viewed/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/GA-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Operations research (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Operations research/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Operations research/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Operations research/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Operations research/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Scientific modeling/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Start-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Stub-Class Systems articles (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems biology/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems ecology/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems engineering/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems psychology/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Systems theory/defn (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table row format (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table row format/doc (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table row format long (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table row header (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Table row header long (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles/High (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles/Low (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles/Mid (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles/Top (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Unassessed-Class Systems articles/Unassessed (Talk)
  • Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems/Wikipedia 1.0/Visualization (Talk)

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 23:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Further Assessment of the fields of Systems science - May 2008

Around 15 May an initiative has started to reassess and further assess all articles in the ten different fields of systems science.

The field of chaos theory

I further assessed and reassessed (as far a I can se now) all articles in the field of chaos theory. I hereby assessed the folowing 5 categories:

I didn't assess the folowing 3/4 categories, for different reasons:

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

In total
  • 195 articles have been tagged
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The field of cybernetics

I reassessed most articles in the

Multiple articles in the category cybernetics are also categorised in the systems theory and control theory categories. Of those articles I will assessed the more general articles in thw field of systems theory, and the more technical and mathematical articles in field of control theory.

Now I am not so sure about the other subcategories.

I don't think these categories could be seen as part of the field of cybernetics.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 18:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

At the moment:
  • In total some 150 articles have been tagged.
  • Over one thousand articles in the other categories.
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 14:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The field of control theory

I will continu with the field of control theory, with:

In this field of control theory there is a split the more mathematical control theory and the more practical control engineering. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 13:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

At the moment in total:
  • Some 286 articles in the field of control theory have been tagged.
  • The category filter theory offers an other 116 articles
  • The category automation offers some 110 and more articles.
The question here is how far I should go. Now I have to take into consideration that the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team wants to tag all articles. Since the category filter theory and category automation are in no other WikiProject three things can be done.
  1. Bring them (partly) under the WikiProject Systems
  2. Bring them (partly) under an other WikiProject, for example WikiProject Robotics
  3. Start a new WikiProject Automation.
-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The field of dynamical systems

The structure of the field

This structure shows:

  • The interdiscplinairy scope of dynamical systems between systems sciences and natural sciences
  • About 6 categories to assess: Dynamical systems, Bifurcation theory, Ergodic theory, Limit sets, Non-linear systems, Random dynamical systems & Stability theory
  • In total about 248 articles to assess in the field of dynamical systems.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

First part done here -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Second part done -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The field of operations research

The structure of the field, seen from the category:operations research:

Now in total, if we skipp the

Then in total about 770 articles remain here.

The question off cause is where to draw the line. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 19:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Overall

In total in the fields:

In total about 967 articles now reassessed -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 00:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Two or more fields

I wonder if there should be two or even more fields of systems science defined here:

A problem here is, that there aren't any overview articles here (yet).

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC) - 17:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

New assessment structure with fields - July 2008

The assessment structure have been changed. Now 13 fields have been introduced, see Category:Systems articles by fields.

In total now 1053 articles with fields in the categories.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 11:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

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Is this project also about systems engineering? What is the distinction between systems engineering and systems science?

Many of the members of this project present themselves as into systems engineering. Should that subject be included in the project?

A find the two templates reflecting these two areas strange. In my world, systems engineering was developed within the electrical engineering tradition, while systems science has its origin in a more academic tradition, closer to social sciences and computer science. A large portion of the content mentioned in the "Systems and systems science" template is about what I would call systems engineering topics, such as signal processing, control systems and cybernetics. These are rather applied electrical engineering topics, but they are presented as "theoretical topics" in the template. On the other hand, they are missing in the Systems engineering template. Systems engineering is to my understanding also highly related to communication systems engineering, electronic system level design and computer engineering topics such as computer architecture. These are also missing, while non-engineering topics (business and management topics), which I would consider closer to systems science, are included.

Is it me or the templates that are confusing things?

Mange01 (talk) 21:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Systems engineering is included in this project. Almost two years ago after starting this project we also tried to start a Wikipedia:WikiProject Systems Engineering Initiative, but this stayed an initiative. We did rewrite the System engineering article.
Now I don't share your concern that a large portion of the "Systems and systems science" is about systems engineering. The template lists about 70-80 items. I don't think that many really relate to systems engineering.
I also don't share your concern about the items missing in the systems engineering template:
I am also not sure systems engineering and systems science have two different roots. If you for example read A. Wayne Wymore's Autobiographical Retrospectives, he is telling about the excitement about systems thinking end 1950s. In my perception the excitement about systems thinking and the General Systems movement triggered many of the development of the systems sciences. Systems engineering was be further developed within the electrical engineering tradition, but I don't think it developed independently. But if you have other sources about the history of both I would love to hear that. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Overview of the field of Systems science - April 2008

I added the following overview of systems science to the List of academic disciplines today. -- Mdd (talk) 12:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Systems science (version 0 (24.02.08))

Further comments

If any one have any more suggestions please let me know. -- Mdd (talk) 12:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

1: A separate Dynamical systems theory section

I think the overview (version 0) should be update with a separate Dynamical systems theory section. Now there are three options here:

A. A section called Dynamical systems theory
B. A section called Mathematical system theory.

The problem here is that Mathematical system theory has no article of its own at the moment.

C. A section named Dynamical systems

-- (Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC))

2: Complexity theory removed

Complexity theory could and or should be removed because I it is not a separate field. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 19:54, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

3: Systems dynamics located under Operations research

Systems dynamics and Social dynamics can be located under Operations research -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

4: (Two) more fields

Two more fields are suggested:

The problem here is, that there aren't any overview articles here (yet). -- 20:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

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