Wikipedia:Reference desk/all

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Wikipedia Reference Desk - All recent questions
WP:RD/ALL redirects here. You may also be looking for Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, Wikipedia:Redirect or Wikipedia:Deletion review.

This page lists all the recent questions asked on the Wikipedia reference desk by category. To ask a new question, please select one of the categories below. To answer a question, click on the "edit" link beside the question.

For information on any topic, choose a category for your question:

Computing reference deskP computing.svg
Science reference deskP physics.svg
Mathematics reference deskP mathematics.svg
Humanities reference deskP art.png
Computers and IT Science Mathematics Humanities
Computing, information technology, electronics, software and hardware Biology, chemistry, physics, medicine, geology, engineering and technology Mathematics, geometry, probability, and statistics History, politics, literature, religion, philosophy, law, finance, economics, art, and society
Language reference deskP literature.svg
Entertainment reference deskP music.svg
Miscellaneous reference deskP question.svg
Reference desk archivesP archive.svg
Language Entertainment Miscellaneous Archives
Spelling, grammar, word etymology, linguistics, language usage, and requesting translations Sports, popular culture, movies, music, video games, and TV shows Subjects that don't fit in any of the other categories Old questions are archived daily

For help specific to the operation of Wikipedia:
Help deskWikipedia-logo.png
Village pumpWikipedia-logo.png
New contributors' help pageWikipedia-logo.png
Help desk Village pump New contributors' help page
Ask general questions about using Wikipedia Ask about specific policies and operations of Wikipedia A range of services to answer newcomers' questions

For Wikipedia reference information:
Help manual MediaWiki handbook Citing Wikipedia Resolving disputes Virtual classroom
Information and instructions on every aspect of Wikipedia Information about the software that runs Wikipedia How to cite Wikipedia as a reference For resolving issues between users An advanced guide on everything Wikipedia
See also the Wikipedia department directory
The following images are being used under the GNU FDL and/or the CC-BY-SA license:
P computing.svg, P physics.svg, P mathematics.svg, P question.svg, P art.png, P literature.svg, P music.svg, P archive.svg



July 25[edit]

Search engine question. Ignore vs. exclude[edit]

Are there search engines which can do both, ignore and exclude?

I mean by "ignore", a search like (shades AND of AND grey) but ignore "50 Shades of Grey" should return most files containing the words "shades", "of", "grey" but only if they are not part of the wording, "50 Shades of Grey".

By "exclude", even a file containing both the wording "50 Shades of Grey" and the individual words outside the context would be excluded.

For example, the article would stay in the "ignore" results, because of the sentence "Not to be confused with Shades of Grey." but get excluded from the "exclude" search results, due to the redirect remark, "(Redirected from 50 Shades of Grey)". - ¡Ouch! (hurt me / more pain) 08:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

And again, the signature gained a second meaning.
I'm not sure of your distinction, but in Google, using -"some phrase", will ignore results containing exactly that phrase, for example searching for -"fifty shades of grey" -"50 shades of grey" shades of grey will ignore references to a certain BDSM-lite book and film. Note that both representations of 50 have to be separately ignored. CS Miller (talk) 11:12, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, but actually, I'm mostly interested in the "ignore" search which does not exclude the files with both.
Many results have ads and I don't want to get the pages with the only reference to my search term in the ads, but get all the pages with the search term in both the ads and in the page proper. The very existence of adbots makes the latter case much more likely than pure coincidence.
I picked "shades of grey" as example because it went well with my signature. As a search term, it's quite nonsensical, both because of the internet memes about 50SoG, and because "of" is a word which would appear in very few good search queries. - ¡Ouch! (hurt me / more pain) 05:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

pdf format[edit]

I cannot use all the functions in some pdf files (e.g. in Wikipedia article footnotes) on my new laptop, e.g. Search and Go To page number. Do I need to update some software in my laptop, and if so, how, please? I have Windows 7, IE11 and Firefox. --P123ct1 (talk) 11:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

If you access the PDF using a browser, the browser may display the file with any of several different PDF viewers, depending on your browser settings. I find Firefox picking different ways to display the PDF for reasons I can't fathom.
Once the PDF is displayed, see if there is a menu bar across the top with the choices "File Edit View Window Help". Click "Help"; see if there is a choice "About Adobe Reader XI". If there is, click it and make note of the version. Mine is 11.0.07. Let us know what you find. Jc3s5h (talk) 11:38, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
@Jc3s5h:There is no menu bar with "File Edit" at all, just "Print Save Share Create pdf using Acrobat". When I go to "Create using Acrobat", it calls up a screen asking you to buy Acrobat which will convert files to pdf, at £65 a year! I see I already have Adobe 9.5 in the laptop, but when I save the pdf file (from a Wikipedia footnote) to Adobe 9.5 and then use this new file, only the Go To page function works, not the Search function. I did this using IE11 and then Firefox, with the same result. Could you look at the Wikipedia file, please, and see if you can make the functions work? It is at Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, footnote #142, "Senate Committee on Intelligence ...", which is a US government document. --P123ct1 (talk) 07:39, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I have just tried some other pdf files from Wikipedia footnotes, and all the functions work perfectly, without any conversion to Adobe 9.5. It would be interesting to know if you have the same difficulty I had with the file I referred you to. I suppose it could be something to do with it being a very sensitive US government document (on terrorism) - there is a lot blacked out - but it is in the public domain, so I don't see why. --P123ct1 (talk) 09:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
When I click on the footnote in Firefox, on a Windows 8.1 laptop, it downloads the document into my Downloads folder. When I click on the Firefox download arrow and then click on the document, the document opens in Adobe Reader XI, as usual. So I think your problem has nothing to do with the footnote, it has to do with the way your computer and browser are set up. By the way, "Adobe 9.5" isn't a useful software designation, since Adobe sells so many different programs. You might be referring to Adobe Reader 9.5 or Adobe Acrobat 9.5. I think they also have some on-line versions of Acrobat, although I don't remember if they had an on-line version back in the 9.5 era. Jc3s5h (talk) 11:09, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, yes, I meant Adobe Reader 9.5, and I have Windows 7. I have downloaded it the way you said you did with Firefox and it opens in Adobe Reader 9.5, but I still get the same problem, only the GoTo works, not the Search function - and as I said before, this only happen with this particular document, not other pdfs I have opened with IE11 and Firefox. They have all been in Adobe Acrobat, and only this one doesn't work. Very strange. P123ct1 (talk) 12:36, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
What do you mean 'search' doesn't work. Do you mean search doesn't find anything? Or you can even get it to open? If the PDF is an image rather than text and it isn't OCRed in the background, then searching won't find anything. For that matter, if it is text but they did one of those copy protection things where they used a custom font with custom mappings you'll have to know what to actually search for.
While there are numerous restrictions that can be placed on a PDF (look at the document properties in Reader to see what ones apply to your PDF) including disabling copying the content, printing etc; disabling searching isn't one of them. (If the PDF can be opened, these restrictions are more annoying than real restrictions. There are many ways around them although that may or may not fall afoul of the DMCA in the US.) And AFAIK, even if the PDF has absolutely no text, you should still be able to try to search, although I can't speak for Reader 9.5 in particular.
Nil Einne (talk) 13:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
P.S. I has a quick look and the PDF is indeed an image one without any apparent text. However attempting to search still works fine on Reader XI. It doesn't find anything, as you would expect. Nil Einne (talk) 14:02, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
@Nil Einne: The file opens in Adobe Reader 9.5 and the search box is there, but when I type in a word and press "Find next", it says it has searched but cannot find, so it does perform a search. I didn't know about the image thing, which explains it. Thanks. --P123ct1 (talk) 14:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

C Compiler on Windows 7 Desktop[edit]

I would like to run C programs on my Windows 7 desktop computer. What is anyone's advice for a compiler? In the 1990's the compiler of choice was Borland Turbo C for about $300. However, now it has been made into freeware. That would be fine if I could figure out how to complete its installation, but I can't. Some of the web sites that come up on a Google search for it then try aggressively to get you to download other software that I don't want and don't trust. The site that I think really is Borland downloads a ZIP file to me, which I can unpack, but it doesn't include instructions for what to do next. Is there a .exe program that will install the unpacked elements? Is there a set of instructions? I assume, with freeware, that there is no technical support. There are C compilers out there for $700, but that is a lot. Is there a reasonable commercial C compiler for $400 or less, or is there a web site that provides detailed instructions on how to install Borland? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Microsoft Visual Studio Express is free, if you want to use it. If you want to use the Borland compiler, then WinZip or 7-Zip will extract the files for you, they are both free, but WinZip is nagware. CS Miller (talk) 15:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't asking how to unzip the files. I did download the ZIP file and I did extract the files for Borland C. What do I do to install the compiler? All that the unzipping does it to create a folder of files. It doesn't install the compiler. Also, what does Visual Studio Express do? Will it compile K&R C, or does it do something else? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:11, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
What's inside the ZIP file? Is there an .exe? MS VS Express is a full C and C++ compiler, IDE, and Debugger, but the profiling and installer builder won't work (you need the paid-for versions for those). It appears to support K&R code, over ANSI. Why are you using K&R anyway, ANSI C gives you warning about incorrect parameters, and automatic casting. CS Miller (talk) 16:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I will answer later whether there is a .exe in the files that were unzipped. (I am not in front of the desktop but of the laptop.) What does the installer builder do? Does it install the compiler, or does it create the install wizard that installs the compiled C program on someone else's computer? I don't need that feature. My real question was whether it would compile source code that had all of the power of K&R C (so that I can use the K&R blue book as my language bible). It is my understanding that the differences between ANSI C and K&R C are not significant. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:38, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
It does the later, allows your program to be installed else where. VS express is installed by a wizard. Unless you have good reason to use K&R, you'd be better using ANSI, as it will catch some common mistakes. CS Miller (talk) 18:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Unless you have some ancient programs to compile that will only work on Borland C (16 bit segmented programs, TurboVision, OWL, .COM creation) you should not need, and shouldn't use, Borland C. The obvious choice for C development on Windows is Visual C/C++, as CS Miller has noted. Apart from that, there is GCC (you'd probably install the MinGW environment to get it and its toolchain) or you'd use an IDE like Code::Blocks, Eclipse, Netbeans, Bloodshed, or Qt Creator, which all use GCC too. C as described in the 2nd (latest, still very old) edition of K&R is (essentially) ANSI C (the older form, found in the even more ancient 1st edition, is very rarely seen these days). -- Finlay McWalterTalk 17:00, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
So is Visual C/C++ consistent with ANSI C? Visual Basic is not the same as other Basic implementations (as if Basic ever were a standard language). I don't have ancient code; I want to write new code. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:16, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes. Much more so than 16-bit Borland C, where you'll run into limitations of the memory model (segmented memory, FAR pointers) which correspond to nothing in K&R. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 17:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Am I correct that segmentation was needed to work around the limitations of the 16-bit architecture on the 8086 and 80286? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Segmentation (in real mode) was needed to make the 8086 and 8088 look and feel more like their 8-bit predecessors to the software. It obviated the need to make program images relocatable (COM files supplied no relocation information and had a fixed load address (0x100) but the system was still able to load them at any physical address divisible by 16) and it facilitated the translation of legacy software Asmrulz (talk) 02:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Visual C++ is Microsoft C/C++ rebranded by marketing after the release of Visual Basic. There's nothing Visual about it. -- BenRG (talk) 19:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
If I Google on Microsoft Visual C, I see, among other things, options to install Microsoft C++ Redistributive. Am I correct that that isn't what I want, because only permits me to run C programs compiled on someone else's machine if I don't have my own compiler? In that case, is Visual Studio Express what I want? It is described as a tool page, but a compiler seems like something that stands on its own and is not merely a tool package or part of a tool package. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the redistributable is useless to you. You want either "Visual Studio Express 2013 for Windows Desktop" or "Visual C++ 2010 Express". The latter may be a smaller download and use less disk space. It also supports C, despite the name. -- BenRG (talk) 00:08, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Since C++ is a proper superset of C, any compiler that supports C++ supports C. The compiler won't return an error just because there are no objects. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Mostly true. There are a few weird contrived C constructs that won't compile in C++. You can come up with some by mixing C-style comments with C++-style ones, for example.
a = b//*This is a C comment*/ 2;
In C, this just sets a to b/2, but in C++, it sets a to b but is missing a semicolon. --Trovatore (talk) 03:40, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
There are much bigger differences than that. For example char *p = malloc(1234); is legal C but not legal C++ (C++ requires an explicit cast to char *). In C it's legal to use printf without including stdio.h, in C++ it's not. Also, C99 and C11 added many features to C that are not in C++ and probably never will be. Visual C++ 2013 appears to support compound literals and designated initializers (both C99 features) in C mode but not C++ mode. (C99 also added // line comments, so your comment-syntax example is no longer valid.) -- BenRG (talk) 05:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
The relationship between C and C++ is beside the point. The compiler operates in a different mode when compiling C or C++ (indeed, there are different modes for each of the C standards and the different C++ standards). You tell the compiler which mode to operate in (either explicitly at the command line, or it infers it from the source file extension). -- Finlay McWalterTalk 13:10, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
"Fixed" it:
a = b//*This is a C comment*/ 2;
This compiles on both, but C's which don't recognize the "//" atom (programming) (i.e. don't treat the rest of the line as a comment) see the -c++; part as a separate instruction to compute the negative of c, increment c, and will probably issue a warning that there are no side effects.
C's which include "//" comments will subtract c; depending on the values of b and c, the compiled program can check if its compiler recognized "//" comments.
The "++" part was included for punnery purposes only. - ¡Ouch! (hurt me / more pain) 06:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Turning Off Scheduled Update on Laptop[edit]

I have a Dell laptop with Windows 8. Three days ago, it started telling me that it would restart in 2 days in order to apply updates. Yesterday, it restarted itself (without giving me a choice to delay it), but then the installation of the updates failed, and the process of the restart and the backing out of the updates took about 90 minutes. I have now used the Control Panel so that it now checks for updates but prompts me as to whether to apply them. However, it is again saying that it will restart in two days. I used the troubleshooter to correct one problem with the updates. My question is whether I can remove the cached updates so as not to risk another update failure, or whether is anything else that I can to do to avoid having another failed update. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:01, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

My guess is that it's smart enough not to reuse a cached update that failed. StuRat (talk) 00:28, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't think so. Why is it telling me that it will restart in two days? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:44, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
That would mean it will try to re-download the update(s), not use the (possibly corrupted) cached version(s). StuRat (talk) 01:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

When it comes down to information processing (and not storing), what are the most basic units?[edit]

What are the 0s and 1s of information processing? OsmanRF34 (talk) 22:33, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

0s and 1s. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Information processing is not quantified in that manner. --  Gadget850 talk 23:55, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I wonder if the original poster is thinking of Logic in computer science or Boolean algebra? Jc3s5h (talk) 00:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I would still call a unit of data (that can contain only a 1 or 0) a bit, in any case. StuRat (talk) 00:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Clarification: I was thinking what are the operations that cannot be broken down further. OsmanRF34 (talk) 08:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
One is theoretically enough. Asmrulz (talk) 12:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
See RISC. StuRat (talk) 22:46, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Depending on exactly what you mean by an operation, you might be interested in the Turing machine article. If you mean what are the simplest operations needed to implement an arbitrary operation on two bit strings to yield a third bit string, it suffices to be able to perform these operations:
  • COPY a bit from input to output
  • INVERT a bit
  • output a 0 regardless of input
  • output a 1 regardless of input
  • AND (two inputs)
  • OR (two inputs)
Strictly speaking, it isn't necessary to have both the operations AND and OR; only one of the two is really necessary. A book on combinational logic will confirm this. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
You can do better than that. One instruction set computer describes several single logic operations that are sufficient to make a Turing-complete computer. So, for example, a computer that can ONLY execute the "subneg" instruction ("Subtract and branch if negative") can do everything that any other computer can do. SteveBaker (talk) 05:19, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Maybe NOR logic or CMOS is what you're looking for? -- BenRG (talk) 07:00, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

Android app for photographing paintings and other rectangular items[edit]

I like to take photos of paintings at art museums with my Android smart phone, when that is allowed. Currently, I use the HTC One (M8). If the photos are good, I like to upload them to Wikimedia Commons and add them to Wikipedia articles. Often, though, the image of a painting is not a true rectangle, but rather a quadrilateral with sides that are not exactly parallel. I am looking for an Android app that would allow me to click on the four corners of the image, and stretch or skew it into an exact rectangle. Any suggestions? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:39, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

If you don't have to use Android, I recommend Hugin. If you do have to use Android, there are photo editing apps that do this. is a popular one, but it's adware, and I suspect it will do lower-quality resampling than Hugin, and won't correct barrel/pincushion distortion. -- BenRG (talk) 19:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

How much battery does enabling C-States save?[edit]

I'm using a Dell Latitude E7240 ultrabook with an 1.7 Ghz i3-4010U, 4 GB RAM, 128 SSD, Windows 8.1

The laptop has C-States enabled in the BIOS by default. However, when my computer is not in "High Performance" battery mode, or if it is not connected to Wifi, I hear a really annoying, sporadic whining sound somewhere from the laptop. Looking online, I have nailed the sound to what I believe is something known as "coil whine." It is a high-pitched pizoelectric buzzing sound.

I went into the BIOS and disabled "C-States" and the sound has appeared to have gone away.

However, since I plan on using the ultrabook as portable device, I am worried about negative battery life implications this may have. Does anyone have any rough ideas on how much disabling C-States will adversely affect my battery life?

Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 03:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean how long a the maximum charge will last, or are you concerned about degradation of the battery to where it will no longer hold the maximum charge ? StuRat (talk) 13:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm concerned with how long a maximum charge will last. By checking the predicted battery life by moving my mouse over the battery icon, it does seem that enabling C-States does increase the battery life by a few hours. But how accurate is this? Acceptable (talk) 15:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Probably more accurate than any estimate we could provide. OF course, you can do the full test and see how long it takes to run the battery down with and without C-States enabled, while doing the same thing both times. StuRat (talk) 19:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Budget desktop PC recommendations[edit]

My HP/Vista is taking about 5 min. to boot and periodically freezes for a minute or two (CPU usage shoots up to 100%), so I'm looking for a replacement for about $500-600 Canadian (no gaming, just the basics). Any ideas? Future Shop is offering a Dell i3847-5387BK PC (Intel Core i5-4460 / 1TB HDD / 8GB RAM / Intel HD Graphics / Windows 8.1) for $570. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

It would be cheaper just to wipe it and start again on the same PC. Do you have the install or restore disk? Does it have Recovery option, which will restore Windows to its initial state from a hidden partition? CS Miller (talk) 10:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
This sounds to me like a software problem rather than a hardware problem. The solution probably isn't to buy new hardware, especially when that hardware is low end. The solution is probably to look at what unused programs are starting automatically at boot and which programs are over-utilizing the CPU. Also, I'm more interested in the specifications of the machine you have rather than the computer you would like to buy. Any computer you buy from Dell, HP, Toshiba, etc., will have bloatware installed on it that will slow the computer down. No matter how cheap the hardware in your PC, it should never take five minutes to boot. It doesn't just "wear out" inside and slow down mechanically. That's not normally how PCs work.—Best Dog Ever (talk) 12:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
One case where it might take 5 minutes to boot is if it's set to do a disk scan (check all the hard disks for errors) on boot. You can usually skip this by hitting a key on the keyboard, or you can disable it entirely. I normally only let the scan run when I'm not in a hurry or suspect a disk problem. StuRat (talk) 13:10, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Windows doesn't run chkdsk by default. If it detects file-system corruption, it may run once and then start up normally from then on. If it's always running on bootup, then there's something wrong with the hard drive. This is very rare.—Best Dog Ever (talk) 20:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree with the advice to re-install the operating system and go from there. If there are things on there you want to keep, another option is to get a new hard drive, install the O/S on that, and keep your current hard drive as a non-boot drive. If you're not able to do that yourself, you can have somebody do it for you for a fee.
Something else you might want to try first is some scans for malware. That is junk that they sneak in with downloads that does nothing useful but uses up resources on your PC. Products like Ad-Aware will remove such cruft. StuRat (talk) 13:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks all. I'll probably end up saving my stuff, reinstalling and seeing what happens. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Note that after reinstalling Windows, you will have to spend a day reinstalling all the Windows updates. This can be expedited by enabling autologin on Windows, and possibly by downloading the latest service pack for version of windows you use. If you do download the service pack, I'd do it before wiping the PC. CS Miller (talk) 08:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

StringBuffer Object Concatenation in java[edit]

While creating an object of StringBuffer class we get 16 addtional character memory space along with regular data and the modification on the object takes place in the same memory space. so i tried a scenario to clear my doubt, i concatenated a stringbuffer object say("catty") with another stringbuffer "tftwvdhwgdddghdbshgsyg" (more than 16 character long) to see the capacity of the Stringbuffer object but every time i get the capacity as 46(whenever the another one is more than 16 character long). i had thought of getting an error for concatenating a string more than 16 character long.i also want to know the way for printing the address of stringbuffer objects.will someone please explain this(doubt) ?(i am using jdk 1.6). (talk) 14:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The point of StringBuffer is that it is elastic; if you try to add more stuff to it than it will currently accomodate, the buffer is resized. The documentation says "If the internal buffer overflows, it is automatically made larger." Although the internal implementation does eventually use an array, as a user of StringBuffer you can mostly forget that. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 15:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

thanks again ,but what about the capacity() always showing 46 and please tell me the method to print the address.with normal objects we just pass them in SOP to get their address.what to do with SOP as same process here prints the value contained in objects. (talk) 18:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Java isn't C - you can't print the address of objects (unless you write some C); the addresses of objects is an implementation detail, which you shouldn't (and essentially can't) rely on. Printing a java.lang.Object prints its hashcode, which in some implementations may be the address - but this is an internal detail. Similarly, the specification for StringBuffer makes no guarantees about how much capacity it uses; it only promises to make sure there is enough. Different implementations will use a different strategy to decide how much to reserve. It's very rare for you to need to know the actual amount of capacity that is used; APIs to set and query this are provided for people who need to perform microoptimisations in this regard - in 99.9% of cases the defaults will be fine for you, and worrying about the capacity is a waste of your time. If you really care, pull the source for OpenJDK and read the source for expandCapacity in -- Finlay McWalterTalk 22:07, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

got it.i actually became adventorous in my curiosity.thanks for guidance@ Finlay Mcwalter. (talk) 06:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Don't let me discourage you from being curious. StringBuffer is an abstract data type, and in an ideal world you could always use it and never have to think about what's inside. Just in the way that you can drive a car without knowing how car engines work. But real software works on real computers, which are always somewhat constrained in space and time, so all abstractions are somewhat leaky. That's why the API has stuff to set and get the capacity - because, in a very few cases, you will have to worry about that. Usually those circumstances are pointed out when you profile the code (to discover why it's slower than you'd hope); worrying about minutiae like this without evidence from the profiler that it's relevant is usually a premature optimization. But you're absolutely right to be adventurous, not least because it's interesting how the insides of things work. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 11:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

WYSIWYG editor adding local reference[edit]

I maintain my web pages with the free WYSIWYG editor KomPozer version 0.7.10 (20070831). The files on one site have the structure header + main + footer. The header file includes expressions such as


But when I load a file into KomPozer, after the merge the expressions have had a local reference added,


Obviously, the .gif then does not display correctly on the web site unless I manually remove 7 instances of the added text.

What is happening? Is there any way I can prevent this from happening? Is there a better free WYSIWYG editor? (On another computer KomPozer did the same thing, and so I used Microsoft Front Page, which I can’t install on my present computer.) --Halcatalyst (talk) 16:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Perhaps you need to fully qualify where it should find the "images" directory, if not on your PC. I'm not quite sure how you would do that in KompoZer, but I suspect the URL or IP address of the server would be part of it. If, on the other hand, the "images" directory should exist on each user's PC, then it should probably have something like "$HOME" at the start of the string. StuRat (talk) 19:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The images directory is a subdirectory of the directory where the main HTML file resides, as it is on the web server. I don't know what $HOME is or what it is used for. Is it part of HTML? --Halcatalyst (talk) 00:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • That's a variable which contains the user's home directory. In your case, perhaps a variable which contains the user's present work directory might work. That might be something like $PWD, or better yet you could just use ".", as in:
StuRat (talk) 13:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I used Kompozer a long time ago and don't remember that problem. However, web composition software will often do this if you haven't saved the HTML page before adding the relative references. FWIW, that tag looks a bit odd for an image. Why not <img src="filename">?--Phil Holmes (talk) 07:49, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Turning the scroll bar on permanently[edit]

I have no idea why but on one mac I use, as opposed to others (and it appears regardless of which browser I am using, or at least in both Firefox and Chrome), the scroll bar on the right side of the page only appears when I place my cursor there, winking off when not "in use", rather than being a permanent feature when visiting any webpage that goes below the bottom of the screen. I dislike this; I want to make it permanent, like it is on the other macs I use. This mac runs OSX 10.8.3 and the Firefox browser I mostly use is the latest version and has been updated many times so this scroll bar feature seems unrelated to the browser version. Any help with how I can set this to off, or whatever is needed to stop this behavior? (By the way, one of the reasons I dislike is that it often doesn't even work, I have to fiddle with my cursor on the side and clicking there before the scrollbar even appears.) Thanks-- (talk) 20:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Go to your System Preferences > General > Show Scroll Bars > Always That should take care of it. Dismas|(talk) 20:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks so much Dismas. One of those things you either know where it is or you don't. No idea how it got turned off.-- (talk) 22:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Probably when you upgraded the Mac OS. it's a feature of the newer OS's, but i'm not sure when implemented. first time i noticed it was on ipad. El duderino (abides) 09:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Is there any good old school chat websites?[edit]

Where you don't have to download anything to chat on it? Venustar84 (talk) 03:02, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

"Good" is a matter of preference. There are a number of chat sites though. Just do a search with your favorite search engine for chat site and you should be able to find many. One of the top results for me was Omegle. Dismas|(talk) 03:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
There are a number of online IRC clients available. One that I found after a minute of googling was Kiwi IRC, though there are many more out there that might work better for you. Gbear605 (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

What happens in these comic strip URLs? (Firefox only)[edit]

This relates to this question and this question that I asked earlier. I can go to the June 20 comic strip, for example; watch what happens to the URL at the top of the screen. But if I substitute "04/14" after 2014 without changing any of the other information after "06/20", I still arrive at my intended destination. If I go to April 14 the normal way, watch what happens to the URL.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it's not happening to me at home. I normally look at these strips where the Internet is faster, and most days that is on a Firefox computer.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The # and following text is a fragment identifier. It was historically the only part of the URL that Javascript was allowed to modify (there's now a standard "history API" that can modify the rest, but many web sites still target older browsers). I don't know why the Javascript on that particular page is appending random-looking crud to the URL. -- BenRG (talk) 00:40, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I was on an Internet Explorer computer at a library and it happened there too. I was going to the web site and clicking on the links to the comic strips, and it did happen.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 15:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
It happens to me too. I think it's deliberate. I just don't know why. The only purpose it would serve would be as a quasi-cookie that would be saved when you bookmarked the page or shared the link with someone. But even if I copy and paste the same URL with the fragment, they just replace it with a different one, so it looks as though they're ignoring it. -- BenRG (talk) 20:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

Updating phpMyAdmin[edit]

I'm trying to learn PHP and MySQL and to that end have installed Zend Server on my Mac. I've managed to install phpMyAdmin version I got it as a zipped package from the Zend web site. The newest version of phpMyAdmin is 4.2.6 though. I'd like to update to this newest version so that I'm working with the latest version. If I download version 4.2 from though, Zend says it's not a valid package when I try to update to it. I haven't been able to find a 4.2 package though. Does one exist? Dismas|(talk) 01:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

What are some good alternatives to Reddit? (Social Bookmarking sites...)[edit]

Hi, I start to wonder nowadays whether I'm missing something that we don't get to see on Reddit that we'd get to find on other social bookmarking sites. Maybe Reddit's users don't pay much attention to something valuable that another social bookmarking site does. Maybe Reddit's policies don't allow something that turns out to be useful that another site does allow.

Also, I hope to be able to comment and participate as part of a community at whatever other social bookmarking sites there are.

When you suggest them, can you also cite their traffic rankings compared to Reddit? Thanks. --Shultz the Editor (talk) 01:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Check out List of social bookmarking has a couple of dozen possible candidates. SteveBaker (talk) 05:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

July 30[edit]

Outlook Under Office365 on Windows 8 Laptop[edit]

I have a Dell laptop running Windows 8. I recently licensed Office365. It says that it includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneNote, and Outlook. How do I start Outlook? I know that I can start Word by launching a Word document and Excel by launching an Excel spreadsheet How do I launch Outlook? More generally, is there a way to bring up a Start menu under Windows 8? I know how to do it under Windows 7, but Microsoft seems to have made changes to the user interface only in order to make changes to the user interface. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Found the installed apps. Disregard question. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Can 3D scanning streamline game development and computer animation?[edit]

Now people can just 3D scan something instead of modelling it and use it, whatever it is, for their game or movie. Right?

If a 3D scan of a very large environment was available to the public could interested parties walk through it in real time? Say, Macchu Picchu? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:8051:4D60:918B:EBE3:685C:C84C (talk) 20:06, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

The term "real time" suggests you are looking at events while they are happening. So say a person you know happens to be at Macchu Picch, if you were to look at Macchu Picchu "in real time", you would see them there and what they are doing. As far as the rest of the idea goes, check out Three-dimensional virtual tourism. Vespine (talk) 23:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


July 26[edit]

quantum immortality[edit]

this is what i found in simple english wikipedia, see question below:

Quantum Immortality is an idea in which it is put forward that the consciousness stays alive even though the conscious being dies. For example, someone sets off a bomb beside the victim, that victim survives in an alternate universe by being injured but living, or by the bomb not blowing up. However, in the original universe, the victim "dies" in the blast. The consciousness continues to exist in another, perhaps many alternate universes. This is related to the thought experiment of Schrödinger's cat.

The idea is that if you use a special gun that goes off, something called a quark is spinning one way, but not if it spins the other way. However, the quark somehow manages to spin both ways at once, so the universe splits into two separate possibilities as the person pulls the trigger. In one universe, the person survives, in the other, the person dies. The person themself does not notice anything different.

my question is, is that (bold text) true and what does that mean? Dannis243 (talk) 01:25, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The entire passage is somewhat confused and not very accurate. The bold text is correct, though: it just means that the person never experiences the outcomes in which he dies. In the few outcomes where he somehow survives, he just experiences a narrow escape, just as in any situation where someone has a close brush with death. --Amble (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I wonder about the same thought experiment done with quantum unconsciousness. The apparatus randomly determines each 10 seconds whether to anaesthetize the experimenter. So in some universe, the events that would render him unconscious never happen, and so he remains awake for the experiment.
What is the difference between someone being rendered unconscious, returning with an at least someone different configuration of nervous system later, and someone who dies, but leaves behind some other member of his species who can then pick up and read about the experiment? Wnt (talk) 02:34, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
This sounds like a variant on the old expression, "Blown to kingdom come." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:06, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
The idea is that some variations of quantum theory maintain that every possible outcome to every event happens in one or other of an infinity of alternate parallel universes. Since you can't reason about what's going on in universes in which you died, then by analogy with the anthropic principle, "you" must exist in a universe in which you survived. What this is claimed by some to mean is that you will live forever - dodging bullets and surviving catastrophies by increasingly crazy and unlikely means. At first sight, this seems like a good thing - it predicts that you'll live forever. But if it's true, the idea might mean that we're going to find ourselves in a literal living hell. This idea would only mean that you survive to observe the universe in this state - not that you are healthy, happy, comfortable or anything else. So, for example, it seems likely that in this view of the universe, the insane series of coincidences actually FORCE you to survive. You can't die even if you try. However, it doesn't prevent you from going blind, deaf, losing all of your limbs, being in continual agony, having all of your family, all of the rest of humanity dying around you, etc, etc. We'd better hope this isn't true - because it means that every single one of us winds up in their own, individual hell-universe. It quite literally dooms us all to the worst hell imaginable for all eternity!
Fortunately, there are many get-out-clauses that most people who've seriously considered it believe will ensure that it isn't true. SteveBaker (talk) 04:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
it calld "the next world" , thanks water nosfim — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 05:05, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

All of this depends on there being a non-zero probability of you surviving. What if the probability really is zero?-- (talk) 12:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The notion of quantum immortality was developed by among others MIT Professor Max Tegmark whose other achievements include writing a word processor in Z80 machine code and proposing his Mathematical universe hypothesis whose postulate is "all structures that exist mathematically exist also physically". Wikipedia's article is Quantum suicide and immortality. (talk) 13:04, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
The mistake made here is that it assumes that time exists in some objective way which is unlikely to be true (it contradicts most of modern physics). So, while you can write down a wavefunction and consider how it behaves under time evolution, it is wrong to say that just because in a superposition of different outcomes you are not present in some of the states, that you must be in one of the other states where you are present. This is only true of you redefine "you" to limit it to you experiencing one of thse future states, making the statement trivial. However, that's not consistent with how you would want to consider the probability of you experiencing one of the possible states you can be in.
What about quantum insomnia? There is always a probability that I could experience the time that I should be not experience if I would not fall asleep in time. Quantum theory yields a finite amplitude for that, and yet I usually sleep well. The hidden assumption made in quantum immortality predicts that we should all suffer from chronic insomnia.
The correct way to think about these issues is to stop considering time as fundamental, the universe doesn't evolve in time. What we consider to be time evolution is just a mapping from one universe to another that preserves information. All these unverses exist a priori. So, it's not true that the dinosaurs don't exist, that's only true in our universe, just like in some other universe it is the case that we are dead and burried for millions of years. Count Iblis (talk) 18:21, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
A related issue is that we don't know whether our universe is infinite or finite. In any given volume of space, there are only a finite number of arrangements of energy and fundamental particles that are possible. So with literally infinite space, you'd expect to find infinite numbers of copies of the exact same piece of space for any sized volume you happened to choose. That means that there are infinite numbers of large collections of entire galaxies that are utterly identical to ours. So infinite numbers of earths orbiting infinite numbers of suns, with infinite numbers of Steve's typing this same paragraph. Of course, there will also be infinite numbers of earths with copies of me that make a typo in this sintence instead of typing it correctly. This leads to another variation of quantum immortality, which is that in an infinite universe, we all exist in infinite variations - including those variations where we survive every terrible thing that can possibly happen to us. The same anthropic principle says that all of us exist without having died in any of a million possible ways because we are the copies who survived. So "quantum immortality" is very similar to "infinite universe immortality". SteveBaker (talk) 19:34, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Either the infinite universe thing or split universes seem like they can really get out of hand and make a hash of the laws of nature. I mean, if the universes are infinite I suppose there's a universe where I jumped out the window thinking I could fly. There's a universe where I've done so and think that I am flying by flapping my arms, despite normal gravity. There are an infinite number of universes where I do all this and I have the delusion I've been doing it for hours. And if you take the copies of me from all those universes you can put together a nice motion picture where I am indeed in every stage of the wingbeat, flapping my way around town, with a delusional memory that perfectly matches the preceding frames in the picture you've spliced together. So in what sense is it not occurring as an "actual physical phenomenon"? Wnt (talk) 22:49, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
More than that - there are an infinite number of duplicate Earths where not only does a freak wind gust allow you to fly briefly but there are an infinite number of THOSE Earths where by a truly astounding number of consecutive coincidences, you can actually fly whenever you want to. Infinity is a strange concept! SteveBaker (talk) 00:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Some of these wild hypotheses, invented to support other wild hypotheses, remind me of the logic gyrations astronomers had to go through in order to retain the notion of planets orbiting in crystalline spheres. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

How Steroids eliminate Fungal infections or Hemorrhoids?[edit]

If Steroids help to "Construct" tissues... How is it that they "Eliminate" Fungal infections or Hemorrhoids? --- Such actions sound a bit different for me than "Constructing" tissues\enhancing the Biosynthesis of tissues... Ben-Natan (talk) 15:25, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The problem is your "if" statement; there are hundreds of varieties of steroid, with a multitude of different actions. For more detailed information about steroids acting as an anti-inflammatory, see Glucocorticoid and Cortisol, among many others. Other kinds of steroids inhibit fungi by inhibiting Lanosterol 14 alpha-demethylase (see here for a list). Matt Deres (talk) 16:02, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
The article Hemorrhoid notes that steroid-containing agents should not be used for more than 14 days, as they may cause thinning of the skin. It is more appropriate to prescribe Non-Steroidal (NSAID) drugs to relieve pain and inflammation. (talk) 23:15, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
In reality steroids do not 'get rid of' haemorrhoids, they reduce the inflammation that is causing the irritation, this may give the impression that they have gone, but the swollen anal veins will still be there. Richard Avery (talk) 10:47, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

What kinetics?[edit]

By what a physico-mathematical mean of the kinetics always been different from a physico-mathematical mean of the statics?--Alex Sazonov (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Those are all English words, but I don't understand what you are saying at all. Is there another language you speak as a native tongue? Perhaps you should find a question answering service in your native language? --Jayron32 20:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
If you're Russian, as your name suggests, maybe it would be better to post your questions in Russian. I can think of several users here who understand Russian and might be able to translate your questions for us. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:20, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the intended meaning of the question is something like "How does kinetics physically and mathematically differ from statics?" I don't have time right now to tackle providing an answer, though. Red Act (talk) 22:39, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, the simplest way to explain it is that kinetics is the study of things that are moving, while statics is the study of things that are not moving. --Jayron32 23:13, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, that basically sums it up in one sentence. There's a slightly more detailed comparison at Analytical dynamics#Relationship to statics, kinetics, and kinematics. Red Act (talk) 02:47, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
It's a spamming troll, its posts on Ruwiki are similar, coherency-wise. It just likes stringing sciencey-sounding words together Asmrulz (talk) 05:02, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Hmm but they're also targetting the Russian wikipedia? I long suspected this was our Argentinian friend who I suspect can't speak a word of Russian and who's native language is probably either Spanish or English. But may be the troll really is Russian although their real English level is obviously far better than they show here (as I guess is their Russian). Nil Einne (talk) 07:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Dose the mass been move in a static’s?--Alex Sazonov (talk) 05:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps. Statics deals with objects that are in "static equilibrium", which for sure only includes objects on which there is no net force and no net torque, and therefore no linear or angular acceleration. However, it depends on the author as to whether or not the phrase "static equilibrium" includes objects which are moving at a nonzero constant velocity. Wikipedia articles are inconsistent about this; the Statics article says an object moving at a non-zero constant velocity counts as being in static equilibrium, but the Mechanical equilibrium article says it does not. Of the physics textbooks I have on hand that talk about equilibrium in the context of classical mechanics, one of them defines "static equilibrium" in such a way that it would include non-zero constant velocity objects, and one of them defines just the word "equilibrium" the same way, as does this web page[1]. None of those three sources defines "mechanical equilibrium", or distinguishes between mechanical equilibrium and static equilibrium. Looking online, it looks like in places where "mechanical equilibrium" is also defined, "static equilibrium" is defined such that it only includes objects with zero velocity, but in contexts where "mechanical equilibrium" isn't defined, then "static equilibrium" usually but not always is defined in such a way that it also includes objects with a nonzero constant velocity. It really just depends on the author. Red Act (talk) 07:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, if the mass been move in a static’s it been a static’s or kinetic's potential? I’m been study in the physics of the USSR which always been a physics of Ideal Cases.--Alex Sazonov (talk) 08:03, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I been see, that science mind of the kinetics always been in a constant moving in static’s!--Alex Sazonov (talk) 08:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

More word salad from a troll. Edison (talk) 16:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
You can't conclude that from just the above, because good faith attempts at translating technical sentences can produce results that are just as difficult to understand. To see this, try using Google Translate to translate a technical English question into Russian, and then use Google Translate a second time to translate the resulting Russian back into English. For example, via that process, the sentence "How does kinetics physically and mathematically differ from statics?" gets turned into "The kinetics of physically and mathematically different from static?". That resulting question is about as hard to try to understand correctly as the OP's question. Red Act (talk) 17:05, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Operations sector[edit]

What I the best way for a graduate to get into the operations sector whether in events, travel, leisure, airports industries etc? And does operations involve future planning as well? For example would a job in event operations involve the planning and managing of it too? What about for a fixed building such as an airport, shopping mall or station? Is planning and management also part of operations/operations management or is it separate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:33, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Those are all quite different industries, even if they share some skill-sets or similar sounding titles. Operations is a very broad field; it often draws people who have academic backgrounds in mathematics, business, management engineering, engineering management, industrial engineering; or people who are farther along in their careers after starting out with a technical specialty in a specific industry.
If you're totally lost, start with the Occupational Outlook Handbook, a service and publication of the United States Department of Labor. That can help you narrow down the exact kind of occupation you're looking for. For example:
... and thousands of related types of employment prospects. These types of careers typically imply that you have completed a bachelor's degree and/or additional higher education in a relevant field.
If you're outside the United States, you might find your local government service office helpful. For example, the Career Skills and Training website, produced by the UK government, might also be informative.
Nimur (talk) 23:59, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

Bubonic Plague[edit]

What is the chance of contracting Bubonic plaque from a bite from a rat infected with Bubonic plague? Hypothetically in this scenario infected fleas of the rat didn't bite the person (the normal vector to host transferal for yersinia pestis). --KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:07, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I hope this isn't actually a request for medical advice. If you or someone you know has been bitten by a rat, please see a doctor!
The CDC has a number of web pages about plague linked from this page. This page about its "Ecology and Transmission" lists three transmission modes: fleas, airborne droplets in the case of pneumonic plague, and "contact with contaminated fluid or tissue". Well, being bitten is a form of contact, so it would depend on whether the rat's mouth and saliva contain the bacteria. This page about its "Symptoms" says that bubonic plague bacteria multiply in the closest lymph node, but "can spread to other parts of the body". So it makes sense that a rat's bite could indeed be infectious. I was not able to find anything directly addressing the question "What is the chance?", though. -- (talk) 09:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Also, I believe many people have at least a partial immunity to bubonic plague by now, which is why, despite there still being many areas of the planet where people, rats, and fleas all live closely together, it's not the type of pandemic it once was. Of course, if a new strain develops, people may lack any resistance to that, and it could once again become widespread. StuRat (talk) 13:06, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
There are nearly always a few people immune to almost any disease; consider the case of AIDS-resistant sex workers. Why bubonic plague doesn't flare out into Black Death any more is not well understood, but the existence of a few resistant people is probably not a significant part of the explanation. Antibiotics, advances in vermin control, and greater separation of people from animals probably all play a much larger role. It's also possible that the bacterium itself is now different. I recall reading a article which noted that, during plague epidemics, everything involved is sick - the people, the rats, the fleas, and even the bacteria themselves. Matt Deres (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Unlike AIDS, bubonic plague has been around for well over a thousand years, and killed off a substantial portion of many generations, giving human survivors time to develop immunity, assuming it hasn't mutated to prevent this. And, of course, a population develops herd immunity without every individual being immune. StuRat (talk) 19:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, hosts can evolve to become more resistant, but the infectious agents can also evolve to become more or less virulent. A highly fatal disease is likely to become less so in order to maximize its spread and avoid killing off all the hosts. - Nunh-huh 03:46, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
The factor of resistant people becomes apparent when you watch the mortality rates over smaller periods of a century or so - epidemics tend to come in waves, as more non-resistant people fill up the population, only to be culled every few decades. You see that in the plagues of medieval Europe and in other epidemics like cholera. The current situation is something different; modern Western populations are not immune to plague - we've had no real selective pressure for centuries, so we'd be easy pickings for Yersinia. What's changed is our relationship to animals and fleas combined with effective drugs to nip potential plague outbreaks fairly easily. You know who doesn't have those things? - the places that still experience plague outbreaks, like the poorer areas of India. Matt Deres (talk) 03:01, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Oddly enough, the reverse seems to transmit the disease well - cats and dogs biting infected animals get the disease via the mucous membrane in their mouths ref. I haven't found anything that directly answers your question, but that does point to the disease passing through the mouth. Matt Deres (talk) 18:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I think a bigger reason is that people are more hygienic and don't have fleas as a general rule. Fleas biting people was the transmission route during the black death periods. When the rat die, fleas went to a new host and Europeans didn't particularly care or bathe regularly. Compare that with Japanese culture in the same time period. --DHeyward (talk) 19:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Rats don't bite humans unless they are rabid or need to defend themselves. They are a prey animal. Looie496 (talk) 14:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
It only takes once. Doctor to patient: "The good news is, you don't have bubonic plague. The bad news is, you've got rabies. It was nice knowing you." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:18, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
In spite of the fact that predatory animals such as dogs and cats get the plague and presumably continue to bite humans and other animals at least occasionally, animal bites (well, mammal bites) are not a significant vector of plague transmission. Rather, plague normally is spread among animal populations from prey to predator. So it would seem that the chances of getting plague from the bite of an infected rat are pretty low. It is not impossible; a bite that draws blood could expose you to a risk of septicemic plague. However, while that form of the disease acts very quickly, it is by far the least common of the three major forms of plague. John M Baker (talk) 18:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


What does a matrix isolation setup look like where the guest species is generated by pulsed laser ablation, and where post-deposition photosynthesis is facilitated? Plasmic Physics (talk) 12:50, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

What does LAMI stand for here? Matrix isolation is an experimental technique in chemistry and physics where a material is trapped within an unreactive matrix. A host matrix is a continuous solid phase in which guest particles (atoms, molecules, ions, etc.) are embedded. Here are various images. (talk) 01:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Laser Ablation Matrix Isolation. Plasmic Physics (talk) 05:53, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Scientists talking outside of their area of expertise?[edit]

Is there are name for those situations where someone with a solid scientific background attempts to speak with authority on a subject matter far outside of their own particular area of knowledge - and ends up talking utter nonsense of the 'not even wrong' variety or perpetuating horrible bunk, yet nonsense which is taken seriously by the public because the person advancing the idea is an otherwise well-respected doctor, or a professor, or whatever?

For example, you might get a theoretical physicist claiming that he has discovered proof that Jesus walked with dinosaurs, or a chemist stating that he has discovered a method of curing cancer with magnets. Things that many people in the real world would dismiss as 'probably hooey', if the source had just been 'some random guy with a website'. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 20:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Ultracrepidarian. See also argumentum ad verecundiam and junk science. Tevildo (talk) 21:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I could name some examples, but WP:BLP. I'm sure that you can all think of a few though... --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 21:50, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, since he's dead, we can name Linus Pauling. StuRat (talk) 14:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, and this leads to the answer to the OP: "the Linus Pauling effect". --Heron (talk) 19:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
So, is he the reason for the 'take your vitamin CD - there's something going around' (or 'eat lots of oranges when you have a cold - because you need the vitamin C') thing? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Appeal to authority and Ad hominem are articles referring to related concepts. They describe the error in saying "What this scientist said about the history of Rome sounds a bit strange but he is a highly respected nuclear physicist so he must be right." Dolphin (t) 01:40, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The other day someone told me that Buzz Aldrin doesn't believe in evolution. They didn't seem to care when I pointed out that his degree was in engineering. Katie R (talk) 15:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I should point out that Aldrin, although a devout Christian, does believe in evolution. See this interview from the Daily Telegraph. "It was not that remarkable, that special, that unusual, that life here on earth evolved gradually, slowly, to where we are today." Tevildo (talk) 16:17, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps the other person was thinking of global warming? Aldrin does work as an example here in that he has publicly spoken in favor of climate change denial, but he has no expertise in climatology. See Buzz Aldrin#Climate change. Red Act (talk) 16:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Well I'm actually quite happy with scientists giving an opinion in an area they are not too familiar with. And I take note of their views. After all they are trained in the scientific method. However I would point out that Buzz Aldrin is not a scientist - he is a famous and I think quite intelligent person but he has not had a scientific training so his views count about the same as any other reasonably intelligent Joe Public as far as I'm concerned which I'm afraid is not terribly high compared to the scientists involved in an area of study. Dmcq (talk) 17:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I guess one can debate what counts as a "scientist", but Dr. Aldrin does have a Doctor of Science degree from MIT in astronautics. His doctoral thesis was "Line-of-sight guidance techniques for manned orbital rendezvous." Red Act (talk) 17:24, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
That does count as a training in science even if he isn't a scientist. I guess I really mean scientists as lots of people study like that but it is just something they do on their route to doing something else. One has to admit though that a training in the scientific method is nowhere near a full protection from irrationality - it is just a help in keeping on the straight and narrow. Sometimes I wonder if the best measure of intelligence is the ability to rationalize and delude oneself, scientists need help in keeping that in check. Dmcq (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Yeah - just to bring up a good example, there have been a few cases over the years of scientists loudly proclaiming that they have discovered the one real psychic in the mass of phonies and proved beyond all doubt that physic phenomena exist - and basically been all like 'I am an intellectual and a man of science - it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE that I have been fooled by well-executed magic tricks or rationalized away any results that didn't fit in with what I was hoping to find' (followed by listing all their qualifications and accomplishments in a completely different area) when challenged by sceptics. Good old-fashioned hubris, I guess... --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Does Newton's law of cooling apply to a hot car?[edit]

An automobile's interior on a sunny day will heat up, but eventually will have a limiting temperature after a few hours. I'm not sure if the law applies here, since the temperature rise is due to external radiation rather than conduction alone, but a graph I've seen has shown that without air conditioning, the rise appears to be of the form A-exp(-at). Is my intuition correct?--Jasper Deng (talk) 20:58, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes -- as a car heats up, it will lose more heat to its surroundings until eventually the rate of cooling will equal the rate of heating. (talk) 01:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't really answer my question, since there are an infinite number of functions with finite initial condition and a finite limit as t→∞.--Jasper Deng (talk) 03:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
To a first approximation, yes. The external heat source (the sun) in not involved n the law of cooling; it is merely a constant power source. In your exponential model, you have assumed that the interior of the car acts as a single thermal mass. However, under some conditions, you might get the system acting according to differential equations of higher order. For example, if the body absorbing the bulk of the solar radiation is a metal object of substantial thermal mass inside the window, the interior of the car would initially warm up very slowly, with temperature gain accelerating as the metal object grew hotter, after which equilibrium would be reached. This would be expected to result in interior temperature rise being the sum of two decaying exponentials with different time constants. Nevertheless, for each heat flow path, Newton's law of cooling would remain fairly accurate. —Quondum 03:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Some complicating factors:
1) The sunlight will not be constant, but will vary as the Earth rotates, clouds move over the car, etc.
2) There are multiple forms of cooling. At a low temperature difference, thermal conduction from the car to air will occur. At higher differences, the air outside the car will start to rise as laminar flow, assuming no wind, setting the car up like a cooling tower, using convection to cool the car faster. Wind has the potential to cool the car even quicker. Then, at high temperature differences, radiation of infrared/heat from the car will become significant.
So, other than in lab conditions, I wouldn't expect to see a smooth graph of interior temps. StuRat (talk) 14:40, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
In my local newspaper, I saw a graph consistent with Newton's law of cooling (but note again my comment about the existence of other such functions)- it was only for the first hour or so, when the change in the sun angle is small enough to be neglected, it would seem.--Jasper Deng (talk) 15:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
That seems reasonable. In most physical systems, simplifying assumptions can be made, and the simplified model then remains a reasonably accurate description. If your question is whether a first-order model is a reasonable for the typical parked car, the answer would be yes, mostly. One can argue that in the time span involved the typical car on a typical day can be adequately modelled as a single thermal mass with a constant power source and a cooling function that obeys Newton's law of cooling. Over very short and very long times, or with atypical configurations or nonconstant heat source profiles, the complicating factors become significant. So, in effect, for the typical configuration, your intuition is correct. —Quondum 16:11, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Newton's law derives from C\frac{dT}{dt}=\frac{T^*-T}R (for heat capacity C, "external" temperature T^* and thermal resistance R). Adding a constant heat input q is equivalent to changing T^*, which simply means that the equilibrium temperature isn't the same as the surrounding temperature. For a hot car, this is hardly surprising! --Tardis (talk) 07:44, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Aftermath of the 79 A.D. Mount Vesuvius eruption[edit]

This could be an appropriate question for the Humanities desk too, but I decided to ask here.

Following the Eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79, the deaths of 16,000 people and the loss of several towns and villages to the volcano, I presume that the Roman authorities will have launched an investigation to determine exactly what had happened there - and that learned men of the day would have been sent forth to the area soon afterwards to investigate and tasked with devising plausible explanations for the mechanism of a volcanic eruption. As far as I'm aware, this would have been the first major European volcanic eruption in over a thousand years and at the time, no-one would have the slightest idea about what had just occurred.

Now, I suppose that there would be a lot of people who simply believed that it was punishment from the gods, or somesuch - but I'm curious as to what the scientists of the day concluded about the disaster. Anyone know? Or has this information been lost to history now? --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I would have thought the the authorities would have considered it self-evident what happened. The idea that they would see a need for "devising plausible mechanisms" is an attitude that mainly developed after the scientific method became widely adopted during the Renaissance. But if you want the historical facts, you probably do want that other desk. -- (talk) 22:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, self-evident in that 'a mountain exploded and hot stuff came out', I suppose - but even back then, I'd have thought that there would be much in interest in finding out 'why?' for the purposes of then figuring out 'is it possible to know in advance if this is going to happen again, either here or with another mountain upon which lots of people are living?'. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 22:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Of course, the classic description of that particular eruption was in the letters of Pliny the Younger, in which he recounted the death of his uncle Pliny the Elder in the Vesuvian eruption. But the Romans were quite familiar with volcanic eruptions, particularly those of Mount Etna. The Romans in general (at least those of a scientific bent) usually attributed volcanoes to the interaction of subterranean fires and winds; see Volcanology#Greco-Roman science. Deor (talk) 23:58, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
As one of only five known Epicurean Wikipedians, I'm almost compelled to challenge the notion that Lucretius was of a "scientific bent". But then it'd just get all rhetorical in here, and leave roughly half of us wondering whether Vesuvius or our own great-great-uncles are anything more than figments, in "truth". That's certainly for the other desk. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:00, July 30, 2014 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Ecological footprint awareness and self-esteem[edit]

Have any studies examined how awareness of one's own ecological footprint impacts self-esteem? I doubt I'm the only one who's ever wondered how many tons of carbon dioxide I'm worth to the rest of humanity. NeonMerlin 02:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of, though the negative ecological footprint of a single person is approximately zero. You're much more likely to affect the rest of humanity with communicable diseases than anything to do with carbon. I'd be more worried about your anti-biotic footprint if it makes you feel better. Plus your footprint is all within your control with use of fossil fuels. I'd question you're awareness if it was affecting you self-esteem, mot the other way around. --DHeyward (talk) 09:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
DHeyward, do you mean the ecological footprint per capita in total, or just at the margin (which would imply an increasing return on carrying capacity from carbon sinks)? NeonMerlin 17:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, let's think of a few examples, people who fly all over the world to lecture us about how we shouldn't be flying all over the world. Al Gore, Tim Flannery,Michael Mann for example. If one were to try and limit one's CO2 output to the average worldwide number , you'd be allowed the energy intensity per capita of Cuba, for example. Greglocock (talk) 10:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
And everyone in Cuba is happy ("or else"). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
People who care about their carbon footprint probably try to minimize it, and thus feel good about themselves, while those who don't care are unaffected. However, there may be some who care about it and feel depressed no matter what, as they can never get their carbon footprint low enough to be happy. StuRat (talk) 14:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Some folks aren't happy unless they aren't happy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Debbie Downer ? StuRat (talk) 17:40, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Yep. Where is she now? Working for Fox News, maybe? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
You obviously don't watch Fox or only watch Judge Jeannine, Bugs. Harris Faulkner and Megyn Kelly (!) ? Unfortunately, not only is a certain person I won't name an angry drunk, Mom's also never happy unless she's unhappy. I've advocated a carbon tax in the form of a tax on fuel and packaging an other inefficiencies for years. The problem is while you could easily get most Americans to agree to a large tax on shipping and packaging costs in exchange for an end to sales taxes, the left wants to keep the latter on top of the former. μηδείς (talk) 21:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I should have put that one in small print. And I know who you're talking about. He's on leave, so to speak. As regards taxes, I'm like any American, in that I strongly support taxes on things I don't use. And as regards a carbon tax, you'll never get conventional industry to accept it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
We have just the reverse issue here in Michigan, where the right wants to repeal a business tax. They argue that this tax is unfair, since businesses not only have to pay sales tax when they buy equipment, but must pay tax on it every year after, too. That would be a reasonable argument, iff they would increase another business tax to make the bill revenue-neutral. But, of course, they made no such proposal.
As for a tax on packaging, that might have some other benefits, like reducing the amount of garbage overfilling our landfills. A deposit is another approach. The 10 cent Michigan bottle deposit on carbonated beverage containers has worked wonders to clear the sides of roads of returnable bottles, as homeless people will collect them if anybody tosses them out there. Nonreturnable bottles and other packaging continue to lead to littering and illegal dumping, though. For example, some kindly individual was nice enough to donate a vodka bottle to us last week by leaving it for us on our front lawn. I accepted his generosity, rinsed out the bottle, and put some flowers in it. StuRat (talk) 12:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

How good is satellite image?[edit]

If we put a printed newspaper outside, could satellite capture a picture of that newspaper with readable text?-- (talk) 10:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, see Satellite imagery#Resolution and data. For current commercial satellites the answer is certainly not. The maximum resolution available from spy satellites is not something that countries publicize, but is unlikely to be that good because of having to look having to look through the atmosphere. -- (talk) 12:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Imagery intelligence#Satellite discusses the Rayleigh criterion limit for resolution, and says that IMINT satellites are believed to have a resolution of about 10cm. So the answer appears to be "no" even with spy satellites. Red Act (talk) 13:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The US military has been filled with stories of satellites with ungodly resolution. One frequent claim is that they can read car license plates from orbit - another is that newspaper headlines can be read from orbit. Both of those claims were made during the cold-war era when the actual photographs were conveniently labelled "Top Secret" and nobody could be called upon to prove this capability. Probably those are both apocryphal. The US Military certainly do have 10cm imagery, I've worked with it - it's not even secret...but that's not enough to do either of those things. An entire newspaper would be only a handful of pixels and you'd be lucky to tell whether a car even has a licence plate - let alone be able to read it!
The highest resolution Google Maps images are also around 10cm - but they mostly use aircraft-derived photography.
Right now, the US Department of Commerce places a ban on commercial satellite photography with resolutions under 50cm - on grounds that this is the highest resolution that doesn't allow you to see individual humans - hence preserving some sort of anonymity. That limit is currently being appealed by at least one commercial provider (DigitalGlobe) [2] who could provide 40cm resolution with satellites already in orbit - and who plan to launch new satellites with 25cm capability sometime next month! The US Military and the Whitehouse have already lifted their versions of the resolution cap - and it seems that the Department of Commerce may finally eliminate all restrictions sometime this year. Some people are horrified by the privacy implications - but since Google Maps already provides higher resolution than that from manned airborne photography, and the un-banning the use of commercial drone aircraft is probably going to happen just as soon as the FAA can figure out the flight rules for such craft - it seems pointless to disallow satellites from doing the same exact thing.
But no, I don't think reading the text on a newspaper from orbit is possible right now...maybe not ever. That said, I would imagine that even with 10cm imagery - you could get a good enough image of the page to recognize which newspaper it is, and infer which page was being looked at by comparing the blurry image you got from orbit to images of all of the pages of all of the newspapers printed in that part of the world within a week or so of the date that the photograph was taken. In a sense, perhaps that's good enough.
SteveBaker (talk) 14:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Is that 10 cm limit just for visible light ? How about if we move to the non-visible parts of the spectrum ? StuRat (talk) 14:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Those are either outside the Optical window or longer, hence worse. Jim.henderson (talk) 16:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
In addition to Earth's atmosphere blocking above-visible-light frequencies, the solar spectrum cuts off quickly below violet. Unless we posit a giant orbiting ultraviolet flash bulb, it would be photographing in the dark through an opaque wall. (talk) 19:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you all for very detailed responses. I have one more question. I watched an American movie describing an American POW who notifies his superiors his location by facing the sky (to let a satellite see him). In real life, is this possible to identify a man through satellite if he faces the sky?-- (talk) 16:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Based on the resolution described above, no. I think a better method is to spell something out on the ground. If spread over a large enough area, it won't be noticeable from the ground. StuRat (talk) 17:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • This comment reminds me of a science-fiction short story by Timothy Zahn. Unfortunately, by mentioning it in this context I have revealed the ending, so if I reveal the title as well, it becomes a spoiler. Follow this link if you would like the story identified anyway. -- (talk) 22:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
There's a new film called Lucy, based on the debunked notion that we only use 10 percent of our brains. The notion of being facially identified by a satellite was also used in a movie starring Gene Hackman and Will Smith, I forget the title. Basic preposterousness never stops writers from writing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:31, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Enemy of the State, incidentally. Tevildo (talk) 18:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Somewhere in the attic is my college physics text, which if I recall correctly, had a way of calculating the maximum resolution based on aperture size, and i recall calculating long ago that a spy satellite would have to have unrealistically huge optics to allow reading wristwatches, newspaper headlines, or even license plates. This is a limit regardless of atmospheric effects or the quality of the lenses or sensors. Edison (talk) 19:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
How about a precisely placed array of smaller lenses ? StuRat (talk) 20:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
That would be the Rayleigh criterion, that I mentioned above. Red Act (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I think the digital world has changed most of that at least for static images. In the same way that audio oversampling can have a 1-bit Sigma-Delta converter can shape noise out of the band of interest and achieve 18 bits or more of audio dynamic range, digital cameras with multiple images of the same object can be used to push resolution. Focus stacking is one technique. I believe there are others, that, even though single images are at the Rayleigh limit, multiple images at difference points in space and different focal planes can be combine mathematically to create a static image with much greater resolution than any individual one. I believe this is similar to having a much larger aperture with much less aberrations. --DHeyward (talk) 23:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure it works that way, but I work with audio-like signals, I'm not an expert in the image-processing field. Oversampling the image in the time domain simply allows you to reduce the noise at the source resolution, but not reveal smaller detail. See Oversampled binary image sensor for an example. Oversampling to increase resolution would have to happen in the spatial domain, which could theoretically work by snapping many quick images as the camera drifts over the subject, so the grid of pixels shifts slightly between each shot, but I would be very surprised to hear that the small number of samples would be enough to make an appreciable difference in resolution. I do vaguely remember hear about using a similar technique to get higher-quality stills out of blurry security camera footage, but I'm having trouble tracking down a good source. Katie R (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
It's possible to get a very high angular resolution with an array of separated telescopes; that's the principle behind astronomical optical interferometry. I can't find any evidence that optical interferometry has been tried from satellites, but interferometry at microwave wavelengths from satellites exists; see Interferometric synthetic aperture radar#Spaceborne. Red Act (talk) 15:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
So it's impossible at this time although there are some theoretical ways to do so. Thank you all for this interesting discussion and explanation. I've got what I want :).-- (talk) 00:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


I have two questions, each of which drives toward the same basic point: 1. If the Nile dried up today, what physical evidence would exist a thousand years from now to tell us that it flowed south to north rather than north to south? and 2. Can you determine the direction of flow of a dry river without knowing where its source was or where it emptied? Evan (talk|contribs) 23:51, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

You might want to ask the members of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rivers.
Wavelength (talk) 00:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Wavelength, we shouldn't encourage people to ask knowledge questions on pages meant for discussing improvements to the encyclopaedia. The whole reason the reference desk was set up was to keep those questions off the project pages. SpinningSpark 00:46, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Spinningspark, I meant that the original poster would invite editors with specialized knowledge to comment at the reference desk.
Wavelength (talk) 01:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The Nile has a prominent delta which shows where it carried sediment into the Mediterranean. (talk) 00:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The topography of the land, i.e. which way is "downhill", might be a clue. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I hope we aren't facing confusion here because the Nile appears to run UP maps. HiLo48 (talk) 03:19, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
That would be more pathetic than I can imagine. In any case, the OP is talking one thousand years, which is fairly short on the geologic scale. Dry Falls, for example, has been around for like 20,000 years, and it's still pretty easy to figure out which way the river was flowing. The much less dramatic human-made earthworks leading away from Stonehenge are visible from the air (se Google Maps) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't think I was confused about... anything, actually. I got good answers, though, so thanks, everyone! Evan (talk|contribs) 16:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Spacecraft on Mars are able to measure properties of the dried up rivers located there that haven't flowed for a million years. Figuring it out at the Nile after such a relatively short period of time should be a piece of cake. Erosion patterns would distinctively show flow direction - a protruding surface will be more highly worn on the side that the water is flowing against, and less worn on the sheltered lee side. Ancient river beds are occasionally frozen in time as "Mudstones" that show the ripples in the muddy bottoms - which also makes it really easy to figure out the water flow direction. SteveBaker (talk) 04:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I saw examples on a recent trip to Central Australia. In Kings Canyon there are large areas of rippled rocks one finds oneself walking over. Nearby, is the Finke River, claimed by some to be the world's oldest river. It still runs sometimes, after really heavy rain, but most people just see a dry river bed, starting in a desert, and ending in a desert. The forms of erosion on rock surfaces can show which way the water has flowed. HiLo48 (talk) 04:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I believe every river connected to the ocean flows into the ocean, and not inland from the ocean. The reason is simple: land is almost always above sea level, which is to say higher than the sea. Water in a river flows downhill, which is towards the ocean. Anybody who saw a dried-up Nile can immediately conclude that it flowed into the ocean, absent overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
The basic shape of the river should also tell you which direction the water flowed. Generally, small streams merge into tributaries, which then merge into rivers, which then merge into giant rivers like the Nile. So "uphill" is the direction where the river branches off and becomes smaller; "downhill" is the direction where the river merges into a bigger river. --Bowlhover (talk) 07:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
This question pertains to sedimentology, and can be partially addressed by the articles, Sedimentary structures and Paleocurrent. Plasmic Physics (talk) 08:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Anecdote: A geology professor I once had (a stratigrapher) told the story of his finding, in some exposed strata, what he thought were imbricated pebbles indicating a direction of flow. Excavation revealed that they were, instead, the remains of the ribcage of a fossil whale. Deor (talk) 11:26, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The English River Avon once flowed to the north and drained into the Humber, rather than into the Severn as it does today. Perhaps our article will give you pointers. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC) Well it doesn't, but this article does. As it says, it once drained into the River Trent, but during the Wolstonian glacial period that route became blocked, and after the Ice Age ended, it flowed to the south-west. Perhaps I ought to add it to the article.--TammyMoet (talk) 20:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC) Done! --TammyMoet (talk) 20:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, and this sort of thing happened innumerable times with the rivers draining the Great Lakes as well as the Columbia and related systems on the NA west coast. The entire outflow of the St. Lawrence once flew through the Hudson. A look at a topographical relief map of the area is enlightening. μηδείς (talk) 20:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

Calculating the distance between two planets on a given date[edit]

The title is pretty self-explanatory, I guess. I'm looking for an easy and simple way to do this, preferably online and preferably without installing any software. Thanks in advance. Evan (talk|contribs) 00:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The JPL Solar System Simulator has the information you want. You will have to play around with the display settings and turn lots of things off to be able to actually read the distance figures. The information is obscured by a too-busy display on the default settings. There is a much simpler caculator at Wolfram but it is beta and doesn't give the date used so it's accuracy is probably suspect. SpinningSpark 01:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC) and 01:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
If you want high accuracy, use JPL's HORIZONS interface: [3]. For each planet, you can get the planet's right ascension, declination, and distance from Earth. This defines a spherical coordinate system, and you can calculate the distance using the planets' coordinates. I might write an app that automatically does this, if nobody finds a pre-existing one. --Bowlhover (talk) 01:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Wolfram|Alpha will calculate it, for example distance between Venus and Mars on 31 December 2015 gives 0.9553 au. ---- CS Miller (talk) 08:46, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I assume that it takes account that the planets' orbits are elliptical, rather than circular, However does it take account of perihelion precession, orbits slowly increasing, and other effects needed for calculating the planets' locations in the distant future/past? CS Miller (talk) 08:56, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
WolframAlpha looks accurate enough for my purposes. Thanks! Evan (talk|contribs) 16:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Full body burns and infections[edit]

I've heard of people who have received full body burns being in the ICU and being unable to survive due to their skin having been peeled off and due to the resulting scabbing (all over their body), eventually die from infection. Is this have any basis in fact? I've researched but I couldn't find this specific scenario. Thanks. Tutelary (talk) 02:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Burn#Prognosis explains that burns over more than 90% of the skin have an 85% fatality rate - and goes on to say that the most common complication is, what you've heard seems reasonably correct - although it's by no means the only possible outcome...after all, 15% survive - and of the 85% that die, some at least must die of the less common complications. SteveBaker (talk) 04:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
A quick Google search suggests that a complex condition called "burn shock" caused by "complex fluid, electrolyte, and protein shifts" is an important issue with major burns. It can be treated by "fluid resuscitation".[4] Alansplodge (talk) 18:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Just to clarify, scabs are shields against infection, not causes of it. If your body is full of them, that's a sign of a problem, but only like how if your apartment is full of firefighters.
Inhaling fire really sucks for oxygen-rich lungs. There, and in other permeable places, scabs are more of a problem, but still not for infection reasons. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:17, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
To clarify, scabs would be a more major problem in your lungs and throat than on your skin. But they occur there far less frequently. What I meant by "more of a problem". InedibleHulk (talk) 23:47, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
I'll be very honest, I'm really really sleepy, I don't think I can adequately summarize my sources in a clear manner - at any rate, this [5] has a ton of good information, and is quite readable, these [6], [7], [8] are just abstracts, but may be of some interests. It does appear that a large number of deaths are caused from subsequent infection, sepsis seems to be a big one - the paper mentions that 75% perish from infection or inhalation related complications; I didn't see any clarification of how much each factor contributes, or how much overlap, etc. Sorry I could not be of more help.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 05:38, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

"Red" and "blue" stars[edit]

Characteristic spectral power distribution of an A0V star (Teff = 9500 K, cf. Vega) compared to blackbody spectra. The 15000 K blackbody spectrum (dashed line) matches the visible part of the stellar SPD much better than the blackbody of 9500 K. All spectra are normalized to intersect at 555 nanometers. (from color temperature - see below)

Wnt (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

From the articles about stars, I get the impression that most "red" stars are even more infrared than red, and blue stars are usually more ultraviolet than blue.

My reasoning:

  • The peak wavelength is around 2.9mm divided by the surface temperature. So, 5000K - 580nm (yellow-orange), 4000K - 725nm (red), and many stars are way below 4000K and thus mainly infrared.
  • Going the other way, one finds 5800K - 500nm (green-blue), and 7250K - 400nm (violet-ultraviolet). The radiation of the latter is already 50% ultraviolet, and even A-type main-sequence stars are hotter.

So, is it correct that the 7250K star emits half its energy as UV, and a 3600K star half its energy as infrared? The figures look OK, but I'm not sure if I can take the peak as 50/50 mark.

Of course, names like "infrared dwarf" and "ultraviolet giant" are unnecessarily long; the dominant visible color avoids that problem nicely. I'm asking because somebody claimed that you couldn't see any stars in front of you when moving at 0.5c; their claim was that all colors would been blue-shifted out of the visible spectrum. Now, if most "red" stars emit lots of infrared, that issue doesn't even. - ¡Ouch! (hurt me / more pain) 09:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Note that A-type main-sequence stars emit lots of infrared from the dust clouds surrounding them, so they would be visible too. (talk) 10:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Most of the energy radiated by a star is blackbody emission due to the hot gas. In supplement to that, the star also emits spectral radiation at various wavelengths - including visible, infrared, and elsewhere in the radio spectrum. Those spectra are emitted because of various atomic, nuclear, intermolecular, and bulk physical processes. In addition, there are very weak electromagnetic emissions at much lower frequency - say, a few microhertz for a typical star - due to the bulk movement of the plasma (the ionized gas inside the star), and its very complicated fluid interactions with its own electromagnetic radiation. All of these spectra are added together in a mostly linear fashion. Taking account of everything, we see that most of the energy spectrum still looks very much like a black-body spectrum - so it's radiating at all wavelengths. Astronomers then categorize as a "reddish" or "bluish" tint based on the peak temperature - a parameter that we might describe by its correlated color temperature (briefly, that's a mathematical formula to approximate the "equivalent" blackbody color). Nimur (talk) 16:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Stars are a lot brighter-colored than I'd imagined - see the diagram from the end of color temperature I've reposted at top. If you say A-type main sequence star has color temperature 15,000, then that is accurate for what you see but not for the UV. Wnt (talk) 17:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Sure! There are two blackbody curves. But this makes total sense: ionized plasmas commonly have per-species temperature. The best Wikipedia article may be nonthermal plasma (plasmas whose constituents are not in thermal equilibrium); but the best reference is (as always) Bittencourt's Fundamentals of Plasma Physics.
But for Vega in particular, things are even more complex: the temperature of the star varies with position, because of the complex relation between nuclear fusion reaction rates, plasma density (which is strongly affected by rotation), and convection of the bulk material to the stellar surface. Our article on Vega links to several research papers that discuss the temperature gradients, which are large enough to be observed from Earth. Nimur (talk) 18:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Nimur and Wnt.
That A0V spectrum is quite remarkable; above 400nm, it fits the 15000K curve well, but in the UV range, all hell seems to break loose. Between 200 and 400nm, there is definitely too little output for an even remotely black body, but below 200,there is way too much (about 4 times the expected quantity around 50nm). If I didn't know better, I'd say the star is trolling the visible-light astronomers.
The 15000K curve looks like a good fit to the visible spectrum, but I wonder why the 9500K curve is in there. It doesn't fit either part of the curve well, except maybe the dim UV part between 240 and 370nm, and even then, the "peak" is far from pronounced. Was the 9500K chosen because the spectrum has its 50/50 point at the same wavelength, i.e. because half the emitted light has lower wavelength?
The peak of the 9500K curve is right where I expected it (around 300nm - I don't even know where I found the "divide 2.9mm by temperature" rule), but the 15000K curve doesn't even seem to have a peak, nor does it come down when wavelengths approach zero. Why? - ¡Ouch! (hurt me / more pain) 08:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
The 15000K curve is the spectrum of the black body radiation that comes from the lower parts of the star (its maximum is outside the plot limits). It is modified by absorption in the star's atmosphere into the observed spectrum. For A stars this absorption is mostly due to atomic hydrogen - the Balmer lines are clearly visible in the visible part of the spectrum (starting from Hα at 656 nm), converging to the Balmer limit at 365 nm. At shorter wavelength, photons are absorbed at all wavelengths, not just in separated absorption lines. 9500 K is the star's effective temperature, it is defined by the total luminosity of the star, i.e. by the integral of the observed spectrum. The 9500 K curve should have the same integral as the observed spectrum, although not the same shape. --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


When embarking on her solo flight across the Pacific in 1935, did Amelia Earhart take off from Wheeler Army Airfield with a less-than-maximum fuel load? Because I've tried it in Microsoft Flight Simulator, and I found that when taking off from Wheeler in a Lockheed Vega with the full fuel load of 650 gallons, it's almost impossible to clear the high ground to the east. So how did she manage to do it (other than by being a better pilot than me, which she no doubt was, but I don't think that alone could have made a difference)? (talk) 23:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Are you correctly simulating wind, temperature, and density altitude? Just like the textbook says: aircraft performance depends on atmospheric conditions. A lot. The effects are so important that atmospheric conditions constitute the first half of the chapter on aircraft performance!
If you fly long enough, you'll eventually meet a pilot who forgets to account for wind and temperature, and ends up in a tragic fireball. He was, by the numbers and the ratings, a better pilot than I... but still could not execute a climb at three times the calculated maximum aircraft performance. Maybe it would have been possible, had there been a stronger headwind or if the day weren't so hot... because the same aircraft had executed the same departure many times before ... Nimur (talk) 05:29, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I'm simulating weather conditions as accurately as possible -- I took the weather info straight out of Last Flight (where she wrote, among other things, that the winds for that takeoff were very weak). If anything, the temperature I've inputted into the weather engine might be too low (which would make the air density too high, which in turn would make it easier to gain altitude). (talk) 05:46, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
(After more close review of the Lockheed Vega performance, and the terrain at HHI): The PHHI AF/D entry makes no remark about terrain. You're departing Runway 6? What altitude are you turning crosswind?
Something about your simulation is screwy. Our article lists a 1300 foot per minute rate of climb - which would be specified at maximum gross takeoff weight. The sectional shows no terrain or obstacles higher than 3,500' east of the field. The strip itself is 5600 feet long. Whatever terrain - or aircraft performance - that your simulator is using appears to contradict the actual data. Terrain should not be even remotely hazardous. There isn't really even any justification for using a short field takeoff procedure.
Or... and I'm reluctant to even mention it... but perhaps you don't know how to fly a simulated taildragger very well at all! Review the airplane flying handbook, and be sure you're rotating at liftoff speed, and flying a normal pattern, climbing at Vy, ...
Nimur (talk) 06:05, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Another thing to consider: her Lockheed Electra was a "...highly modified Model 10E" (emphasis mine) —which undoubtedly meant that it was lighter than the standard model. (talk) 06:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
That might well be something to consider if it was relevant. It isn't because Earhart wasn't flying the Electra at the time. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:34, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Okay, roger that. — Although she "sold her 5B Vega to Philadelphia's Franklin Institute in 1933" [she purchased "a new Lockheed 5C Vega"] [before] "In July 1936 Amelia took delivery of a Lockheed L-10E Electra" ~My bad, ~: (talk) 07:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
(un-indent) Really? The Vega climbs out at 1300 fpm? That must be with much less than 650 gallons of gasoline -- I've flown the Vega many times, and with the full 650 gallons on board, even at maximum sustained power (30 in. manifold pressure, 2200 rpm) and with a perfect climb at V(y) (110-120 mph), it barely gets 250-300 fpm. (Now once you get down to 75% fuel, it's a different story altogether...) So the only conclusion I can draw here is, the performance data given in Wikipedia for the Vega is for a much lower fuel loading than the maximum 650 gallons -- with the full 650 gallons, the Vega is much heavier than normal, with the corresponding reduction in performance. (The Electra, as far as I can tell, was even worse -- with the full 1100 gallons of fuel, it was not only grossly overloaded, but also dangerously nose-heavy so it would only rotate with great difficulty and a generous use of nose-up trim.) (talk) 09:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
BTW, has anyone noticed that the performance data given for the Vega in the article lists the maximum range as only 725 miles -- nowhere near the distances involved here? (talk) 09:04, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Also, even though the performance data might have been given for maximum gross weight, the article lists this weight as 4500 lbs. -- which, with an empty weight of 2565 lbs. and (I presume) a 130-pound pilot, would be reached with less than 300 gallons of fuel. (With the full 650 gallons, the actual takeoff weight would be more like 6600 pounds!) (talk) 09:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
A couple points:
  • Do not overload the aircraft. The aircraft must be within its weight and balance envelope. That means fuel plus baggage plus passenger weight plus engine oil plus everything else has to be below maximum gross takeoff weight, and the moment arm also needs to be calculated. Aircraft performance envelopes aren't exaggerated. They don't include a built-in "engineering fudge factor." When loaded and fueled, the aircraft needs to be below that value. Need a reference? The official textbook addendum, The Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook. Want another reference? Weight and Balance (Chapter 9 of the Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge).
  • Performance numbers are typically quoted at maximum gross takeoff weight. I wouldn't trust the 1300 foot-per-minute, or any other parameter, at face value, though, because...
  • The Wikipedia article is not a reliable source for aircraft performance numbers - it's just a useful summary in a convenient form suitable for an encyclopedia. If you're really flying, or even if you're just serious about simulating, there is one and only one reference for aircraft performance: the legal and approved Pilot's Operating Handbook for the aircraft. That will provide performance numbers and charts for the aircraft at various conditions. Anything else is bogus.
Nimur (talk) 14:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
True -- except that for long-range overwater flying of the kind that Amelia (and other pioneering flyers like Lindberg, Post, Kingsford-Smith, etc.) had done, there's no choice but to overload the aircraft with fuel, because that's the only way you can reach the other side of the pond (without in-flight refueling, which was not available in the 1930s and is not supported in Flight Simulator). Which brings up the original question once again: Just how much fuel did Amelia have on board so as to reach the mainland but do so without crashing on takeoff? (talk) 00:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

July 30[edit]


What is the product of a reaction of methyl salicylate with ammonia solution? (talk) 00:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Salicylamide. Is this homework? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:30, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
Yes. How do you figure that out? (talk) 01:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Google. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:11, July 30, 2014 (UTC)
Or, if you mean "figure it out", like describe the reaction in scientific notation, no clue. But Google also knows a lot about that. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:50, July 30, 2014 (UTC)

Species Name[edit]

Can someone please identify the species? I had a hard time searching for the name of the flower on the internet. Nikhil (talk) 02:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Species Name?
Complete answer above but I would just warn you that botanically a geranium is a different species — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard Avery (talkcontribs)
Yes, the "real" ones are a different genius, Geranium. μηδείς (talk) 18:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Maximum hydrogen[edit]

I understand that λ2-plumbane and thallane(1) are more stable than their typical group hydrides because of a combination of the inert pair and relativistic effects, but I do not know why the reverse is true for the transition metal molecular hydrides. For instance, why is chromane(2) the maximally saturated hydride of chromium, while molybdenum and tungsten's ones are molybdane(6) and tungstane(6), and why such a large jump? It would seem more reasonable, if it increased in steps of two. Plasmic Physics (talk) 08:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Insanity test procedure[edit]

Do insanity tests (for court trials purposes or in case I claim that I was abducted by UFO) look like that questionnaire? What's the actual procedure (the most common, if it varies) to determine sanity? I'm just curious, don't treat this like a medical advice (talk) 09:01, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Forensic psychology, Mental status examination and DSM-IV are probably the best articles to start with. In a legal context, the test for "sanity" is made by the court (generally on the basis of medical evidence), and the exact test will depend on jurisdiction and the nature of the trial. See Insanity defense, Mental disorder defence, and M'Naghten rules. Tevildo (talk) 09:56, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
That questionnaire looks like nothing that would be used for any practical purpose, legal or scientific. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Q92 = Yes. (talk) 12:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
An early question asks, "Have you ever seeked psychiatric help?" Is that normal British English? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:28, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Having looked through the test, it's fairly clear that it's only pseudo-serious, with some bits that are generally funny, and some that would only make sense to a Brit. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
"Seeked" isn't idiomatic. The test is obviously a joke, but it's not a million miles away from the MMPI and similar pseudo-scientific crap systematic methods of psychological evaluation. Tevildo (talk) 17:10, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

See the Wikipedia article on Insanity defense. Courts do not issue crude multiple-choice "insanity test" questionnaires like the OP's example but generally consider an insanity defense if it is supported by expert forensic psychologist evaluation. M'Naghten rules stemming from a British panel of judges in 1843 have been used as a test of criminal liability in relation to mentally disordered defendants, essentially posing the question "did the defendant know what he was doing, or, if so, that it was wrong?". Anders Behring Breivik#Psychiatric evaluation describes a recent prosecution where the sanity of the defendant was the central contested issue. (talk) 00:02, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Non-dairy topping[edit]

I would like to be pointed to a specific article regarding 'Non-dairy topping'. I have no idea about its chemical composition and would like to find more information about it. All I've dug up is Cool Whip and Non-dairy creamer (I wonder whether this is the same thing). Sincerely, Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:05, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Ingredients should be on the label. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I've read that, I'm mostly wondering why isn't there any article/redirect on it over here so that I could get more information about it. Anyway thanks, Ugog Nizdast (talk) 15:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
A non-diary topping can be anything at all, as long as it doesn't contain dairy products. An article would need to be more specific, e.g. a topping for what? I guess you mean a whipped topping, so we're probably talking about some mixture of partially hydrogenated oil, coloring, sweeteners, water, preservatives, stabilizers and emulsifiers.--Shantavira|feed me 15:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I just now created a redirect for Non-dairy topping. Red Act (talk) 17:21, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Exactly what I had in mind after the previous reply. Many thanks to both of you. Sincerely, Ugog Nizdast (talk) 17:29, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Oil and water don't mix - so add an emulsifier and agitate the mixture vigorously the oil forms a milky/creamy emulsion. Real milk is basically a fatty oil/water emulsion - so this trick works well. That gets you the look and "mouth feel" of cream - all that remains is to make it taste right, and for that they add sweeteners and other flavorings. The details about which oil, sweetener and flavorings vary from one topping to another...but that's the basics. They may also add "stabilizers" and "preservatives" to increase the shelf-life of the product. SteveBaker (talk) 19:07, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
"Tastes terrific... and just look at that shine!"[9]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm rather surprised to find that the disgusting Bird's Dream Topping still exists. Just look at the tasty list of ingredients there! And then, Give it, give it. give it a whirl!. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 19:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

3.5mm audio input switcher?[edit]

I'm looking for a device that allows me to plug two 3.5mm audio inputs into one 3.5mm socket at the same time - and switch between them (so I can switch between my turntable and tape machine without unplugging). Does such a thing exist? If so, what's it called? I've tried searching for it, but I can't find what I'm thinking of. Thanks. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 15:18, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Googling "audio switch" throws up plenty.--Shantavira|feed me 15:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Does your turntable produce a high level signal like the tape machine, which feeds directly into the same input as the tape, or is it a magnetic phono output which goes into a "phono" input which amplifies it a lot and "equalizes" the sound? A simple "Y" adapter might damage the 2 devices connected to it, by simply connecting the two outputs of the tape and turntable. You would need a switch at a minimum. It would not be that hard to buy a small metal box and mount a switch in it, which would have inputs for the 2 devices and an output to go to the amplifier. The switch would prevent cross-connection between the two input sources. It could be a double pole, double throw switch, which breaks connections before making connections If you wish to buy a mixer, and your turntable has a high level equalized output which goes to the "line input" of the amplifier, then something like the RadioShack® 4-Channel Stereo Microphone Mixer Model: 3200029 | Catalog #: 32-029 at selling for $17.97 (US) would serve nicely. You could play either the phono or tape, or both together, through the one input on the amplifier. You can buy cables/adapters to connect any jack to any input, such as the 3.5mm putput from the turntable or tape to the RCA audio plug inputs on the mixer. You could add a microphone and be a DJ. Edison (talk) 16:12, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks fellas. I think I've found what I'm looking for - e.g. eBay item no 221281930030 (other sellers are available!). My turntable outputs a high-level signal like the tape machine does. A 3.5mm Y adapter with a switch is exactly what will do the job here, I think. Though from my Googlings earlier on, forum posts would suggest that such a device is not as widely stocked as one might expect it to be. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 16:29, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
You probably can get phono/RCA switches for less than that; you'll need 3 sets of photo-to-stero-3.5mm leads, rather than stereo phono-to-phono leads. CS Miller (talk) 17:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


July 25[edit]

What's the use of complex numbers?[edit]

After reading Complex number I still don't get what makes the invention of imaginary numbers so special. Is it like Syntactic sugar for mathematicians so they can use less text to get to a proof? Are there proofs that wouldn't be possible without inventing i at the spot? I remember reading a book on fractals with surprisingly little mathematics in it, yet it had some formulas using the magical i as well. The BASIC code that was also in the book to actually draw the fractals didn't need such magic and was completely understandable (besides the astonishing pictures generated by such simple code, of course). Are there things that wouldn't have been discovered/invented/proven by now if no one ever had been thinking out of the box to by writing down the square root of -1? Joepnl (talk) 00:23, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

No, you can represent the complex numbers using pairs of real numbers. Dealing with such pairs doesn't, however, have a natural touch an feel like the set of complex numbers have once the -1 = i is accepted. At any rate, many discoveries and applications would have been delayed many years without the complex numbers. YohanN7 (talk) 00:40, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Edit: As a matter of fact, you can dispose of -1 = i as well. Just regard complex numbers as a particularly efficient notation for a certain field consisting of pairs of real numbers with extraordinary properties. It is the field with these properties we can't do without, whether it's represented by complex numbers or pairs of real numbers. YohanN7 (talk) 00:56, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
You need complex numbers to have a "Closed Field" or algebraically closed field. What this means is that any mathematical operations on a "complex number" will always result in another "complex number". As a comparison, an mathematical operation on a Real number can result in a number that is NOT REAL. For example the square root of negative one. (talk) 00:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
It's useful in appreciating the bigger picture, which is always a good thing to focus on. Because we're typically taught complex numbers later in our mathematical education, it might seem that they're curious exceptions to the real numbers. The truth is sort of the reverse. ALL numbers can be expressed as a complex number, but not all complex numbers can be expressed as a real number. That means that the real numbers, the ones we know and love and are familiar with, are the real curiosities, being merely an infinitesimally small subset of the complex numbers. Henceforth, when you order 3 hotdogs, you'll be asking for "3 + 0i" hotdogs. Right? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 01:38, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
See Complex numbers#Applications.—Wavelength (talk) 01:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello, I'm not an expert in mathematics, but only an enthusiast. I think that I have enough knowledge to provide an answer. There are 2 separate issues in this question, the first one is that complex numbers aren't an elementary concept as taken by most mathematic treatises, but rather they're usually defined as pairs of real numbers, one of which is the real part and the other is the imaginary part, then arithmetic operations and other properties are defined as well. You can replace all references for complex numbers in theorems and their proofs for the corresponding definition and they will still be valid, in this case complex numbers only make the role of syntactic sugar; likewise it would be possible to deal away with intermediate theorems on proofs by replacing them with their proofs and so on until only axioms and inference steps remain, but it would make intractably huge proofs, and consisting mostly of redundant information.
However, as far as human reasoning is concerned, the concept of complex number embodied in its definition (Or axioms, if you're treating them as a an elementary concept) is absolutely necessary because when we think, we do so on the properties of complex numbers as a structure standing on its own and the definition is abstracted away. There are results for which complex numbers are necessary which aren't about complex number themselves. For instance, the prime number theorem; using an area of mathematics to prove results in another is commonplace. Note that the PNT uses not only complex numbers, but complex analysis. (I'm not knowledgeable enough to understand those proofs themselves or results of complex analysis, however).
Thinking (Apart from writing proofs) in terms of complex numbers makes some things easier, even when they're not indispensable. For instance, a Fourier transform convert a signal from time domain (Values represent immediately intensity as a function of time) to frequency domain (Values represent the intensity of pure sinusoidal frequencies, which sum to the original signal and hence are another representation of it). Each frequency component has 2 components which are in quadrature (90° out of phase), even if the input is real; at this point it's trivial to see each of them as a pair of real numbers, rather than a single complex number, and there's little if any practical difference. However, the FT has very nice properties that are only intuitive when expressed with complex numbers. For instance, the convolution theorem says that convolution in time domain equals multiplication in frequency domain. It makes sense to see one operand as the signal and the other as the filter in a convolution (Specifically, its impulse response). Intuitive, when you pass a signal through a filter, it may attenuate some frequencies in different degrees (Multiply them), but it also may rotate the phase of the frequencies, and complex numbers define this multiplication for both components of each frequency (Either expressed as sine waves in quadrature or the magnitude and phase of a single one, AKA rectangular and polar form) while real numbers by themselves only explain intuitively the magnitudes.
It's exactly the same with real numbers, which can be defined as Dedekind cuts or Cauchy sequences, or rational numbers, which can be defined as pairs of integer numbers, which in turn are usually defined in set theory treatises in terms of sets. Of course, the reason you're asking about complex numbers and not any of the just listed number sets is because you're likely not used to them since your childhood, as you're with the R, N and Q sets (I wasn't, either, but maybe parents and elementary schools should begin teaching them). There's no fundamental distinction, your question can also be justifiably made for them and also for any other mathematical definition.
Also, note that complex numbers are defined and the question of the square root of negative numbers has no sense whatsoever in real numbers. To manipulate expressions containing \sqrt{-1} pretending that it's a real numbers has no more validity than the pseudo-proofs of any other Mathematical fallacy and may give contradictory results as well.
I hope that it helps, regards.
QrTTf7fH (talk) 02:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
By the way, QrTTf7fH, parentheses within a sentence do not call for a capital. —Tamfang (talk) 01:06, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

A very important use of complex numbers is for solving the differential equation of a linear harmonic oscillator: d^2y/dx^2+y=0. An exponential function y=e^{ax} is a solution if a^2+1=0. Without complex numbers you are stuck, but using complex numbers you find a^2+1=(a-i)(a+i), and so the solutions are y=Ae^{ix}+Be^{-ix}. The differential equation can be written (d/dx-i)(d/dx+i)y=0, and so the second order differential equation breaks up into two first order differential equations, (d/dx+i)y=0 and (d/dx-i)y=0. This trick is used in quantum mechanics: the Schrödinger equation is of order one in time. Bo Jacoby (talk) 23:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC).

Well, you aren't stuck without the complex numbers, since you can just guess A\sin x + B\cos x instead of e^{ax}, but yes, this is an important application of complex numbers.
An interesting point here, though, is that the complex-number approach fails (as far as I know) to generalize to the harmonic field equation in d+1 spacetime dimensions. What does work for all values of d is the degree-0-and-1 part of the Clifford algebra Cℓd,1(R), which is isomorphic to the complex numbers when d=0 (the harmonic oscillator case) but not when d>0. The usefulness of complex numbers in the harmonic oscillator seems to be an "accident" inasmuch as none of their interesting properties (like algebraic completeness, or even being a field) matter, just their isomorphism to Cℓ0,1(R). This makes me wonder if the complex numbers in quantum mechanics would likewise disappear in an approach that didn't break the spacetime symmetry by treating the time coordinate specially. But I've never found a paper supporting that idea. -- BenRG (talk) 03:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

elementary mathematics[edit]

what are the main basics in mathematics.what are the elementary based questions that appear in the competitive exams117.204.70.51 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 05:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

The meaning of "elementary" varies widely depending on context. I assume that you want to know about some examinations set in India, but you will have to tell us the level of the examination before anyone can help. Dbfirs 20:09, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Percentage of Grids with connected pathways?[edit]

Let An be the Universe of grids of 2n by 2n black and white squares where half of the squares are white and half are black. *and* both the upper left and lower right square are black. (so A1 only has one grid, A2 has 14C6 grids (the other 6 black squares among the other 14 spots. Let a grid be successful if there is a path of black squares joined on edges from the black square on the upper left to the black square on the lower right. As n goes to infinity, does the percentage of successful grids in An go to 0%, go to 100% or something else?Naraht (talk) 14:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Purely intuitively, I'd guess that the proportion is either 1/e or 1 - 1/e. (talk) 22:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I ran a numerical simulation where I generated random grids meeting your criteria and tested them for successful paths. Here are the numbers for ten million iterations for each value of n from 1 through 20.
For n=2 it is easy to hand-enumerate the 150 distinct successful grids (there are twenty distinct paths (each of total length seven), with nine remaining spots for each path to place the eighth black square, though some remaining square choices need to be excluded to avoid duplicating earlier paths), and the actual ratio of 150 / 3003 = 4.995%, matches my simulation closely. This gives me hope that my code may be correct.
If so, this suggests that the percentage goes to 0% as n goes to infinity, and for these first few numbers, at least, it appears to do so roughly exponentially, with the ratio of successive values not so far from the inverse of the golden ratio, though I don't know if there is anything to that. -- ToE 03:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I worked the following out on the back of a piece of paper during a business meeting, stuffed it in my pocket, and forgot about it till now - it is a slightly dirty use of estimation, but should bear out. (in what follows, Bin(a,b) is the binomial coeff. a over b) Define a minimal path to be a path of black squares (from the fixed corners) so that removing any square breaks connectivity, let k(n) be the number of minimal paths in an n x n grid. Then, k(2n) = Bin(2(2n - 1), 2n - 1). Given a fixed minimal path, the number of ways to colour the rest of the grid to the desired parameters is Bin(4n2 - 4n + 1, 2n2). Since every successful grid contains a minimal path, there are at most Bin(2(2n - 1), 2n - 1)Bin(4n2 - 4n + 1, 2n2) such grids (in fact, should be quite a bit less). The total number of grids, in general, is Bin(4n2 - 2, 2n2), taking the quotient gives, [(4n-2)!(4n2 - 4n + 1)!(2n2 - 2)!] / [(2n - 1)!2(2n2 - 4n + 1)!(4n2 - 2)!]. Using that ln(n!) is approx. n*ln(n) - n + 1; applying ln to the previous quotient and taking n -> infinity, if we may assume (for purposes of the limit) that ln(an + b) is small enough to disregard and that ln(an2 + bn + c) is ln(an2), then we arrive at (4n - 3) ln(1 / 2), which goes to -infinity, and, hence, the quotient limits to 0. Since the quotient approx. bounds the percentage above, this should also go to 0. --since we will have several minimal paths in any successful grid, we are overestimating quite a bit, so even if there is a little fudging involved, I'd feel confident in asserting that it does, indeed, go to 0; obviously, though, this is nothing like a proof, and "back of the envelope" no less, so take it with a grain of salt. -- the approx. bounds on the % is smaller than the above numerical, however, a few random square root factors are being left out and ln of linear growth discarded, thus, for small n, it isn't surprising that it is off.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 07:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
"Then, k(2n) = Bin(2(2n - 1), 2n - 1)" -- that's definitely correct, is it? I'm surprised that this formula is so simple. (talk) 11:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
k(2n) = Bin(2(2n - 1), 2n - 1) is only counting monotonic paths. For n=2, k(2*2) = 20 gives the correct total number of minimal paths because there is not enough room in a 4x4 grid to turn back and forth, but consider this path on a 6x6 grid:
As n grows, these non-monotonic paths should become more common, and I suspect that they may dominate for large n. -- ToE 13:43, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
You're absolutely right, I can't believe I missed that...I feel kind of like a jackass. Thank you for catching my mistake, sorry for the wrong answer. I still feel that there will be a fairly tractable formula that deals with these, I don't think they are too unwieldy - yes, now that you point them out, I agree that they should end up dominating as n goes up. I'll think more about this tonight, unless someone else posts an answer first. Thank you again:-)Phoenixia1177 (talk) 15:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Don't beat yourself up over it; questions would be archived before they were ever answered if we all waited until we were absolutely certain of our responses. I'd be very interested to see a formula which just even set some bounds on the number of paths. Numerically, the n=3 6x6 grid has only 34C16 ≈ 2.2 billion valid combinations, and thus only about 54 million paths (2.472%, based on my Monte Carlo run), so I should be able to write some code to precisely determine the actual number of paths and also the number of minimal paths vs path length for lengths from 11 through 18. I'll try to do the coding tonight. That's as far as I'll be able to go numerically, as the n=4 8x8 grid has 62C30 ≈ 4.5x1017 valid combinations with about 5.6x1015 paths (1.25%). -- ToE 14:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I believe that a path should only be able to have an *odd* number of squares in its path, so the valid paths for the 6x6 grid should only be able to be 11, 13, 15 & 17, hope that helps.Naraht (talk) 15:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I do not seem to have any luck finding a sensible bounds - I've come up with some, but they all end up with "the probability <= 1", which is useless, or are intractable to work with. However, I think if one were very clever with some logic, you could get the above grids as a class of finite models, then express connectivity in transitive closure logic or finite variable infinitary logic (, or some such, maybe MSO (?)), and show that a 0-1 law is satisfied by that class for that logic - then you only need show that it does not converge to 1 to get that it converges to 0. It's not hard to come up with a theory of such grids, it does seem to difficult to get the right logic and axioms to do it and easily show the 0-1 law part, at least, off the top of my head. At any rate - it seems fun - I'm looking into some stuff from Compton, and some others, to see if this might be a more viable avenue of attack; combinatorics isn't really my area, that part seems to be hampering me a bit.Phoenixia1177 (talk) 20:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Sadly, the paper I have appears to be a method I don't see as easily applying is an interesting problem, though, I'm going to keep fiddling with it - I doubt I'll arrive at an answer, as mentioned, combinatorics isn't my strong point. At any rate, if anyone else works up a proof, even if it is after this is archived, please inform me of it on my talk page - reading up on related problems, I'm rather interested and would like to see a worked out version.:-) Phoenixia1177 (talk) 04:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Probably totally useless information, but I calculate the number of corner-to-corner minimal paths as follows: 2x2 - 2; 3x3 - 6; 4x4 - 20; 5x5 - 92; 6x6 - 832; 7x7 - 20164; 8x8 - 1008708. (talk) 03:20, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

Type conversion[edit]

Is there any standard mathematical notation for specifying the type (e.g. scalar, vector, matrix) and dimensions of an otherwise ambiguous expression? For example, can the zero matrix of some unknown dimensions x×y and the scalar zero be represented by separate symbols that are standard and unambiguous, given that 0 can mean either? (Intuitively I'd think \left( 0 : 0 \in \mathbb{R} \right) and \left( 0 : 0 \in \mathbb{R}^{x \times y} \right) would be comprehensible, but possibly more awkward than necessary.) Also, is it possible to distinguish the empty set whose sum is scalar zero from the empty set whose sum is a zero matrix? NeonMerlin 13:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Computer programmers distinguish, but mathematicians do not. The zero scalar is identified with the zero matrix, and no distinction is called for. Bo Jacoby (talk) 23:02, 26 July 2014 (UTC).
That's completely wrong. --Trovatore (talk) 02:09, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
The Mathematics_of_general_relativity#Energy_conservation has
T^{ab}{}_{;b} \, = 0
T^{ab}{}_{;b} \, = 0^a
Bo Jacoby (talk) 07:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC).
But surely by 0, the RHS means the zero vector, rather than the zero scalar. No identification has occurred. Sławomir Biały (talk) 14:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Exactly. The zero vector 0^a is written 0. No distinction is called for. Bo Jacoby (talk) 14:58, 27 July 2014 (UTC).
It is clear from the context here that the notation 0 means the zero vector rather than the zero scalar. No one seriously believes there is no difference between these (which is what "is identified with") would mean, and it would be perfectly reasonable to write 0^a if there were any risk of confusion. You would not see the vacuum equation written as R_a^b=1/2R. Sławomir Biały (talk) 15:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Also, if you were to believe that scalars and vectors were naturally identified, then you would write the Einstein vacuum equation as R_a^b=1/2R. As far as I know, no one writes it this way, even though scalars do naturally embed into the endomorphism algebra. Since no one writes it this way, it would be rather mystifying if they regarded the zero on the right hand side of the equation G_a^b=0 as a scalar, rather than the zero endomorphism. And for your example, there isn't a natural embedding of the scalars into the space of contravariant vectors to begin with, so claiming that the zero on the RHS of the equation is the same as the zero scalar is obvious nonsense. Sławomir Biały (talk) 21:47, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. I, for one, seriously believe that "there is no difference between these". 0^a-0 = 0 . Where do I find the vacuum equation? Bo Jacoby (talk) 18:35, 27 July 2014 (UTC).
You may believe that there is no difference between the zero vector and the zero scalar. But you are wrong. It only makes sense to "identify" scalars with vector quantities when there is a natural embedding of the scalars into the vector space (e.g., working over an algebra). The zero vector and zero scalar, in this setting, live in completely different spaces. Do not be confused by the fact that the same symbol is used for these different mathematical objects. And this is not the place to push your crank theory that everything denoted by the symbol 0 is the same thing. That has already been conclusively refuted by others. Sławomir Biały (talk) 19:52, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Bo, to answer your question: at Einstein field equations#Vacuum field equations. Actually, in the context of tensor component equations, there is room for interpretation: interpreted as a whole bunch of equations on numeric components, the problem does not arise (each component is just a real number); however this interpretation of the notation rapidly loses value, for example when the covariant derivative is used (as in your example), for which the component-wise equations make no real sense. Sławomir's argument is entirely unaffected by this notational thing. If you want to be able to equate a zero scalar with a zero vector, you need to embed them both in the same algebra (which is possible: see Tensor algebra), but in this case you are formally treating them as part of the same algebra, and permitting addition of tensors of differing order. —Quondum 22:28, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. The vacuum field equation is written
R_{\mu \nu} = 0 \,.
The zero on the right hand side is to be understood as a zero tensor field. The OP asked: "can the zero matrix of some unknown dimensions x×y and the scalar zero be represented by separate symbols", and my answer is that zero is written 0, no matter if it is the zero scalar or zero vector or zero matrix or zero function or whatever. My examples show that this is correct. I did not mean, (and I hope I did not write), that scalars are generally embedded in vectors. Bo Jacoby (talk) 05:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC).
Ok. But the zero scalar, zero vector, and zero matrix are not identified (your phrasing, that you vigorously defended). They are different mathematical objects that are often denoted by the same symbol.
Also, the Einstein field equations can be written in a number of equivalent ways. I brought it up only because you seemed comfortable enough with relativity to use it as an example. Obviously that is not the case. The vacuum equation can be written as G_{ab}=0 or, raising an index with the metric, as G_a^b=0, or. using the definition of the Einstein tensor, as R_a^b-1/2R\delta_a^b=0, or as R_a^b=1/2R\delta_a^b. By taking traces, one would normally see that the Ricci scalar is zero at this point, but it is still a valid tensor equation. It would not be written as R_a^b=1/2R however. Sławomir Biały (talk) 13:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. Summarizing: The scalars are not embedded in vectors and so the zero scalar is not the same object as the zero vector even if the two objects share the same symbol 0. The scalars are embedded in (say) 4×4 matrices and the zero matrix is written 0 and the unit matrix \delta_a^b may be written 1. But an equation like R_a^b=1/2R\delta_a^b is not written R_a^b=1/2R because \delta_a^a=4 is more obvious than trace(1)=4. Do you agree? Bo Jacoby (talk) 06:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC).
Note that \delta_a^b is not really a tensor or a matrix. It is a tensor element or a matrix element. So the example is not quite relevant. Bo Jacoby (talk) 10:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC).
That would be true if a and b represented particular indices. But they are usually thought of as just placeholders. (Otherwise this actually obviates your original example, too.) This is made precise in the abstract index notation, which we were supposed to have been discussing, in which indexed quantities refer to the underlying tensor, not their components in a coordinate system. Sławomir Biały (talk) 14:53, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I think I follow Bo, and he's talking of each symbol as an object inhabiting some space (the space being implied by context). So for example, 1 is the identity element of the space that it must be from the context, in his example a space of 2nd order tensors. As an equation in tensor components, R_a^b=1/2R is not even coordinate-independent, but in the implied 2nd order tensor space, it would be correct. But we do not use this notation because it confuses. In the case of the zero tensor, we do drop the indices, probably because it ends up saying the same thing regarded as an equation in tensor components. I disagree with Bo in the claim that the delta "is not really a tensor or a matrix": it is natural to regard it as either, and it is normal to use it to denote the tensor that is the identity map on vectors (or covectors, though technically one is the transpose of the other). —Quondum 17:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I've seen 1n and Idn for the n×n identity matrix. I may have seen 0x×y, or I may be imagining it. You don't see zero matrices in any notation very often.
Abstract index notation is widely used in relativistic physics. It distinguishes scalars, vectors and matrices (properly rank-2 tensors) by the number of indices, and often their size is implicitly encoded in the letters used for the indices (μν for spacetime indices, ij for spatial indices, etc.). The identity matrix/tensor is sometimes written δμν or δij and called the Kronecker delta.
I've never seen a notation for a typed empty set, except in programming languages. -- BenRG (talk) 23:29, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Mathematicians do actually distinguish. There are times when "up to isomorphism" is meant, and no ambiguity results. At other times, two structures can be isomorphic but are intended to be regarded as distinct sets, such as the set of complex numbers being isomorphic to distinct subrings of the quaternions (there is no canonical embedding of C in H, unlike with Z in R). However, it seems pretty normal to "expect" the reader to understand what is "meant", with occasional verbal disambiguation. This is somewhat frustrating to the more literal-minded and to newcomers. The closest seems to be set membership, usually appended as a qualifying statement (e.g. " where xQ). —Quondum 00:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

Where internationally is USD valued highest?[edit]

In which major metro cities in the world is USD valued highest? AKA where will your dollar work harder for you outside the US? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:8051:4D60:918B:EBE3:685C:C84C (talk) 17:15, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

This is going to vary over time and with the basket of goods you want to purchase. A general measure to help evaluate this is the purchasing power parity; a light-hearted version of this is the Big Mac index. --Mark viking (talk) 17:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
This seems like the wrong reference desk section for this question, but I agree with the former Wikipedian. QrTTf7fH (talk) 17:42, 27 July 2014 (UTC).

I was wondering where the dollar goes further and the refreshingly simple Big Mac Index answers my question completely. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:8051:4D60:918B:EBE3:685C:C84C (talk) 18:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The answer might actually be in a place where the US dollar is illegal, but continues to be used for black market transactions. StuRat (talk) 19:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm curious what exchange rate they use. In Argentina, the government sets an official exchange rate for dollars to argentine pesos, but the black market will give you substantially better. I forget exactly how much better, but it might be enough to push Argentina into the lead.-- (talk) 22:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I doubt if there's a single black market exchange rate, unless there's one powerful black market leader who can set a universal rate. More likely, the rate is set at each individual transaction, via haggling. StuRat (talk) 12:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
No, they don't haggle. In fact, they openly post their rates. There is some small variation between merchants, but they're all pretty much the same.-- (talk) 19:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I would think those engaged in black market sales would use the same "one hand giveth and the other taketh away" strategy as car dealers, where they offer you a great deal on the purchase price of the new car, but you get soaked on the trade-in, finance rate, extended warranty, etc. In this case, they could offer you a great price for the black market item, then you decide to buy, only to find out the exchange rate is bad. Or, conversely, they might offer a great exchange rate to sucker you in, only to find out the purchase price is high. StuRat (talk) 20:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
That would require them to be selling actual items. They're simply selling currency.-- (talk) 21:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Rotational invariants?[edit]

I am not a mathematician but a long standing project drags me in operating with objects I do not completely understand. I need help here.

I have a 2-Sphere (radius r = 1) and a function F(θ,φ) defined on it. The function F is well behaved, it is continuous and differentiable everywhere. The function F is therefore a function in the Hilbert space on 2-Sphere with the basis consisting of Spherical Harmonics with two indices l & m: Y_l^m(θ,φ). I also want to introduce another basis Y_l^m(α,β) which is the result of rotation of the first basis via Euler angles ε, γ & ω. The latter are fixed.

Then I expand the function F(θ,φ) into the first basis: F(θ,φ) = \sum_{l=0}^N\sum_{m=-l}^l f_l^mY_l^m(θ,φ) where N is in fact a very large number.

My next step is to expand F(θ,φ) into the second basis: F(θ,φ) = \sum_{l=0}^N\sum_{m=-l}^lg_l^mY_l^m(α,β)

I want to know if the expression: \boldsymbol{\Iota} = \sum_{m=-l}^{l}f_l^m\bar g_l^m, where the bar denotes a complex conjugate, will be invariant under rotations? In other words if I arbitrarily rotate the function F(θ,φ) via three Euler's angles and keep calculating the expression \boldsymbol{\Iota}, the latter will remain invariant?

I also want to makes sure that the expression \boldsymbol{\Iota} is the inner product in the Hilbert space?

My next question is this. Is the expression: \sum_{m=-l}^lf_l^m\bar f_l^m not equal zero? If so, is it going to be invariant under rotations?

Thanks in advance. --AboutFace 22 (talk) 00:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

It may be easiest to answer the last question first. If you can write the expression as a function of Y alone rather than Y and the F's then it must be invariant. In this case I believe the sum is equal to \int_S F\bar F , which follows from multiplying out the expansion of F in terms of the Y's and using orthonormality. So the answer to the last question is yes. More generally, if G is any function which can be written \sum_{l=0}^N\sum_{m=-l}^lg_l^mY_l^m (\theta,\phi) then the \boldsymbol{\Iota} you defined will indeed be the inner product \int_S F\bar G and so invariant. So to answer the first question plug in G(θ,φ)=F(α,β) so show that it's invarient, though you have to be careful in your definition to apply the rotations (θ,φ)->(α,β) and rotation on the sphere in the correct order because it makes a difference here. (In the 1-sphere case, basically Fourier analysis, the rotations commute so it's not an issue.) Note there's nothing special about the sphere here, the same applies so any orthonormal bases for the functions defined on some base set and the group of inner product preserving symmetries of the base set. If it makes it more intuitive, let your base set consist of three points, then your function space is just Euclidean 3-space. --RDBury (talk) 03:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Sir. I will need some time to think about what you said. --AboutFace 22 (talk) 11:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

July 30[edit]

General Term[edit]

Let {\color{white}.}\quad a_n=\frac{(-1)^n}{\zeta(n)}\cdot\int_0^1\frac{\ln^nx}{(1+x)^2}dx.\quad{\color{white}.} Then the first few terms are:

a2 a3 a4 a5 a6 a7 a8 a9 a10
1 9/2 21 225/2 1395/2 19845/4 40005 722925/2 7243425/2

I was not able to find this sequence at the OEIS, and I was wondering whether
someone might help me find a general formula or algorithm for generating it. — (talk) 01:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Hint: \frac{\ln^nx}{(1+x)^2} = \sum_{k=0}^\infin\ln^n(x) (-1)^k (k+1) x^k. If you work through the sums you should end up with a_n = n! \cdot 2^{-n} \cdot (2^n - 2). DTLHS (talk) 03:02, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Resolved: - Thank you! :-)

Spectrum Problem in FMT[edit]

So, mentioning 0-1 laws in an above question caused me to end up rereading [10] from Fagin, which made me get reinterested in spectrums. I noticed [11] from 2009, which is interesting. I was wondering if anyone had any other reading suggestions on the topic; or if any further significant progress has been made since that was published? --Also, it mentions that the twin primes (and a few other sets of primes) are spectrums, it mentions that this because each such set is rudimentary, and all rudimentary sets are spectra; however, I was curious if anyone was aware of what FO sentences they are spectra of? More generally, given a set S that is a spectrum, is it possible to work backwards and get a sentence it corresponds with - for example, finite fields give that prime powers are a spectrum, could we run this backwards knowing that prime powers are a spectrum? Thank you for any help:-) By the way, I notice that we have Spectrum of a theory, but this does not discuss the FMT notion of spectrum, nor anything relating to it - do we have a page that does, or is this something that is not yet covered by Wikipedia?Phoenixia1177 (talk) 05:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


July 25[edit]

Anime and manga with pregnancy as a major theme?[edit]

  • I just finished reading/writing an article on Kodomo no Kodomo, and was trying to populate a new category with works in which teen pregnancy is a major part of the narrative: Category:Teenage pregnancy in anime and manga. Looking through the teen pregnancy trope at TV Tropes, I only found Bitter Virgin to add. Is anybody aware of other manga/anime which have (pre-)teen pregnancy as an important or even central theme? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I've never seen it and know nothing about it, but Tide-Line Blue may qualify. -- BenRG (talk) 05:48, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Thanks. From what I've been able to find on Google, that doesn't look to be central to the narrative. :-( — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:32, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
        • (It's more common to use colons rather than asterisks to indent on the refdesks) Crisco, you might have been better asking on the Entertainment refdesk. If that fails, then the folks at Anime/Manga wikiproject will surely know. (talk) 11:12, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
          • The thought of going to the ent desk struck me only after posting here... I will try the anime project though. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Did/does this type of language exist?[edit]

I was wondering if there are any languages that are not sequential i.e start from the beginning of a sentence and ending at the end of the script. Rather, a mass of information, a bit like a map. The meaning is the same but the way the language is expressed is in its entirety rather than a start and a finish. With bits of the map added on whenever new information needs to be expressed. Is there any validity in this. Or perhaps its beyond our intelligence to communicate in this way. I just had this dream that a yet to be discovered alien civilization communicates in this way. -- 15:05, 25 July 2014

Cephalopods may be able to communicate non-sequentially by altering the colouration / patterns of their skin. Maybe an expert can direct you to relevant references.. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:37, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
PS: Of, course, this (Cave of Altamira)
Parallel information
is an example. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:51, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Many sign languages are able to express various elements of a "sentence" simultaneously, as opposed to the strictly one word after another sequential nature of spoken or written language. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:11, 25 July 2014 (UTC) -- Maybe you should look at Charles F. Hockett's list of design features of human language to see why the short answer to your question is "No". A feature not included in Hockett's list is hierarchical structuring (i.e. syntactic constituents are embedded in nested Immediate constituent structures)... AnonMoos (talk) 23:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

How are Jewish and Christian values different from each other?[edit]

Can someone provide a brief summary of Jewish values and Christian values? (I recently saw an episode of the "Prager University" on Youtube, in which it asked whether or not belief in God or atheism was "more rational", and concluded that belief in God was "more rational". Then, I did a Google search, which led me to Dennis Prager's wiki page, which told me that he's Jewish, with "Judeo-Christian values". If Judeo-Christian values are shared by Judaism and Christianity, then what values distinguish them?) (talk) 15:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

See Christian–Jewish reconciliation. (talk) 15:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
What does that tell me about values? (talk) 16:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Define "values". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:30, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
wiktionary:values (talk) 16:33, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I want to know what the poster thinks "values" means, not what wiktionary thinks it means. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
All I did was rephrase what I read on Dennis Prager's wikipedia page, and surprisingly, he uses the term, "Judeo-Christian values". I find it surprising, because I often hear Christians use the term, not (observant) Jews. His wikipedia page says his religion is Judaism, though. (talk) 16:57, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Apparently you'd have to ask Prager what he thinks "Judeo-Christian values" means. But at least on a high level, it includes belief in God, belief in the Ten Commandments, i.e. belief in morality, etc. Those would be values generally shared by all three Abrahamic religions Obviously there is a wide variety of opinions on the details. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:16, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Some might say that Christianity would side with mercy and Judaism with justice, but in practice it tends to be the other way around. Because of long-term Jews' minority position, being accepting of non-Jewish otherness was the best way to stay sane (and alive). Judaism tends to hold itself to some pretty high (but fairly definite) standards, while it kindly asks everyone else to consider some fairly simple guidelines on not being evil. From what I've read, the concept of Tikkun olam ("repairing the world") tends to be influential even in branches of Judaism that aren't particularly interested in Kabbalah. Israel causes some exceptions to this, but that's an discussion I'm not touching. There's also plenty of finer points (such as distinctions between Reform Judaism, Conservative Judaism, and Orthodox Judaism) I lack the experience to comment on.
Meanwhile, almost all of Christianity accepts that there's something like right and wrong (certain interpretations of Kierkegaard and Calvinism can get pretty Antinomian), but what defines morality isn't as firmly nailed down beyond the idea that it should fulfill "Love others," "Love God," and that the values should be in some way Biblical (the latter two used to shoehorn in a lot of ideas). Consequently, many Christians tend to look at what they believe in the here and now, find some way it matches some part of the Bible, and call it Christian values, without comparing them to other Christian values throughout the world and its history (which may or may not be the same as or different from Inculturation, phrasing Christian values using another culture's terms). Since Christianity makes up about a third of the world's population, and has existed in a number of cultures, this raises questions that we can't answer here about whether there are unified Christian values, whether certain groups are right or wrong, etc... (plus no one wants me to make Jeremiah Wright's sermon about America sound like mild mannered patriotism).
The American Religious right tends to favor Young Earth Creationism (source), indicating an overall belief that the world already works the way it's supposed to, in law, society, and nature (whatever the root is of this is a matter of debate). At the other end of the spectrum, there's a lot of overlap between Christians who believe in Theistic evolution, socially progressive Christians, and those who use terms like "Social Gospel". These are very broad and extreme examples, most people falling inbetween. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:31, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Who said values must be mutually exclusive? Every religion or ethical philosophy may teach values, and these values have their similarities and nuances. This does not necessarily mean they are derived from each other, and may mean they have evolved independently. A person may call something "Christian values", because it is a body of values that (a certain group of) Christians (however defined) may hold. (talk) 17:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
There are many good points raised in Wright's sermon. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:52, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Who are the "Some people" here? (talk) 16:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"Some who do" as opposed to "some who don't". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I was referring to the "Some people" at the beginning of the sentence. (talk) 17:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes. Some do, and some don't. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:16, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
what are judeo-christian values? that eating people's brains is wrong. that r**ping a woman is an offence first and foremost against her, not against her male relatives who are invested with guarding her chastity. that a handicapped or a pauper are people who had bad luck, not born-again miscreants serving their karmic punishment. you know, that stuff that made Europe great and that you only notice when you see how others got it wrong. I'm an atheist, btw. Asmrulz (talk) 18:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"A lot of nuns are born-again Mafiosi." -- Father Guido Sarducci. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:53, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"The word was celebrate!" :) Asmrulz (talk) 19:32, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Jehovah's Witnesses have published "The Early Christians and the Mosaic Law" at
Wavelength (talk) 18:52, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
It isn't possible to generalize about "Jewish values" or "Christian values", because not all members of either group hold the same values. That is to say, there is no such thing as a uniform set of Jewish values or a uniform set of Christian values. Since Jewish values are in theory codified in the Talmud and the Rabbinic literature, one might expect the values of Jews to be more uniform than those of Christians, and maybe they are, but even among Jews, the values of, say young, gay Reconstructionist Jews are likely to be vastly different from those of elderly Hasidic Jews, even within New York City, let alone in other parts of the world. If anything, there is even more diversity among the value sets of different groups of Christians. For example, the values of Jehovah's Witnesses are very different from those of other Christian groups. Even if it is possible to identify ways in which early Christians' values were different from those of neighboring Jews because of Christians' partial departure from Mosaic law, that has little relevance to differences in values among Jews and Christians today, beyond the trivial observation that some Jews continue to observe dietary and ritual rules laid down in the Jewish scripture while hardly any Christians do. There is much more to a person's or group's set of values than that. Marco polo (talk) 19:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Asmrulz: "eating people's brains is wrong" is a pretty universal value. And Leviticus would seem to disagree about who rape is primarily an offence against. (And there are also some Christian movements that seem to think poverty and wealth are signs of God's favour or judgement, and/or a sign of Godly living - although that seems to me to be so at odds with the Gosples that I'd be inclined to consider that heretical). Iapetus (talk) 13:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Our article Judeo-Christian is quite informative. In a nutshell, the ethical values of Judaism and Christianity have a broad overlap, since both are based on the Ten Commandments. The moral code of Judaism is somewhat more formalised than in Christianity (dietary restrictions, Sabbath observance, circumcision etc.). The biggest differences between the two religions are in the area of theology, especially around the means of salvation, the status of Jesus and the doctrine of the Trinity. Gandalf61 (talk) 19:09, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
You may want to look at the articles on Sermon on the plain & Sermon on the mount. There is, of course, a fundamental difference in the way God is perceived in Judaism and the way Jesus is perceived in Christianity. Also bear in mind the vastly differing historical context of the development of Christianity vs the history of Judaism and the Jewish diaspora. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Also be aware that "Judeo-Christian values" is fairly common code word, often meaning "conservative" with overtones of "you can trust me; I hate [fill in scapegoat du jour] just like you do". --NellieBly (talk) 13:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Some differences between Jewish and Christian mythology and values:
Jews Christians
effectively worshiping Mammon worshipping God (JHWH/YHWH, Jehova/Yahuwah, Jahve/Jahwe/Yahweh) and Jesus (Jesus Christ(us), Jesus of Nazareth)
an eye for an eye, death penaltys (cf. Torah/Pentateuch), mass murdering & killings of women and children (e.g. Amalekites), genital cuttings for males, racism (e.g. "God's choosen [racial/ethnic] people"), inherited guilt forgiveness, brotherly love, a free religion (everyone can become a Christian, if he wants to and believes)
no pork meat, brutal "kosher" butchering of animals eating pork meat is fine, brutal butchering is not necesary
"Judeo-christian values" might mean, that he accepts some Christian values, e.g. forgiveness instead of inherited guilt. -IP, 20:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)
This is an extremely Christian-centric explanation and offers no citations for where you're getting these claims. Jewish Principles of Faith may help to clarify some things.
It is entirely possibly to convert to Judaism; you don't need to be born into the religion. Plenty of Christians support the death penalty and plenty of Jews do not. It's a complicated and difficult issue that most large groups of people can't agree on. It is also important to note that just because something is described as happening in the Biblical narrative, it doesn't mean that all Jews -- or all Christians -- either believe it literally happened or approve of the concept. Judaism and violence has a good discussion of the diversity of Jewish thought on passages such as Amalek.
What are you referring to by "inherited guilt"? The concept of original sin is a predominantly Christian doctrine.
SarahTheEntwife (talk) 16:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
(As a Jew raised Catholic, I found Robinson's Judaism' quiteuseful, and there are the works of Geza Vermes for more technical reading.) μηδείς (talk) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

American white supremacist[edit]

I desperately need help trying to remember the name of an American white supremacist as I just can't recall it and Google has been no help so far. My exact recollections are hazy but this guy was a figure in either the KKK, one of the sundry other far-right groups or both until he announced that he was done with all that. He subsequently turned up on Geraldo and similar shows discussing his decision to give up racism, meeting African American activists and the like. In this case however he then returned to white supremacy, possibly claiming that his initial abandonment of the ideology had been all a ruse in the first place. I've gone through every article in Category:Ku Klux Klan members and none of them seem to match up so can anybody help or did I just imagine all this? Keresaspa (talk) 01:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

David Duke maybe? --Jayron32 03:20, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Tom Metzger famously met with Louis Farrakhan in 1985 and claimed to find common ground, but he never renounced racism. AnonMoos (talk) 11:13, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
No, I know both of them and neither of them were the guy I'm thinking of. If memory serves me right he had a big cowboy-style moustache if that helps. Keresaspa (talk) 19:12, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Is it Buford Furrow you're thinking of? Mogism (talk) 19:19, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
No, don't think that's him either. This guy was pretty thin (assuming I'm not imagining him). Keresaspa (talk) 23:29, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I might have found it: [12] mentions a Greg Withrow (a name also mentioned in Tom Metzger (white supremacist)), though I should emphasize I have not looked into this and have no idea where this story went from that time. The cool thing is, Rivera kept his efforts going, and eventually Johnny Lee Clary appeared on his show expressing a conversion which appears to be genuine and enduring. Wnt (talk) 05:32, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

22nd Regiment Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry[edit]

Where can I find this but in book form? --KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I believe that regiment was known as "Henry Wilson's Regiment", and there is a book by that name, which includes the chapter:  Alphabetical Roll —which I suspect would replicate the roster you linked (but haven't checked):
  • Parker, John Lord (1887). HENRY WILSON'S REGIMENT. Boston: Franklin Press. (Google eBook)
~E: (talk) 06:39, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Wow. Thanks. This is a tremendous help. It even has a biographical sketch of the person I am researching.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:47, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Face-smile.svg You're welcome! ~E: (talk) 07:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The Mosby referred to in this book is John S. Mosby, right?

It seems so; the book mentions "Mosby's guerrillas" which was an alternate nickname for "Mosby's Rangers" (a.k.a.: "Mosby's Raiders"). ~E: (talk) 08:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

November 18, 1862 letter at Fort Tillinghast[edit]

Can anybody tell me who wrote the November 18, 1862 letter at Fort Tillinghast, shown in the sources below? The sources says "Our brothers of the artillery writes." Is the letter's writer identifiable or is it just a collection of letters with the name of writers not mentioned? Also a letter dated to November 18, 1862 couldn't possibly be talking about reading a newspaper article about a funeral that didn't take place until March, 1863 (Henry's died around this time), so what is the explanation for that? The letter can be found here:

--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


2K14 is a redirect to 2014, but not explained there. Where is this notation used, and where does it come from? Google search is riddled with computer games and confusing. --KnightMove (talk) 16:20, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the page history, before it was a redirect, someone tried to pretend that it was a common thing, and not just a branding ploy by the company 2K Games. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:24, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps there should be one of those hatnote-things:  " 2K14 redirects here; for the sports video game, see: NBA 2K14.  "  (?) (talk) 16:31, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
It appears to be a once only thing by a user who didn't know about WP:Notability. There's no 2K13, 2K10, 2K06, and so on. (There are redirects for 2k12 and 2k11, but those are for surface to air missiles). If the brand thing was anything beyond 2K Games's cutesy titling gag, I'd be more open to it. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Presumably it's an outgrowth of Y2K, which was hugely notable (until it proved to be the greatest fizzer of all time. Granted, we'll never know how many aircraft would have "fallen out of the sky" had the companies ignored the issue ...) -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Jack, some of us put in a _great_ deal of work to ensure that sort of thing didn't happen. The way people go on about it nowadays, I get the impression we shouldn't have bothered. I can hope that people will be more appreciative in 2038, but I doubt it'll be the case. Tevildo (talk) 21:35, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
My "Granted" sentence was acknowledgment that the problem was not ignored and disasters were averted, for which I'm sure we're all grateful. But you know what humans are like: they're attracted to disaster and make a big deal out of it, whereas when people act proactively and consequently nothing happens, it's not news. "Fizzer" was a poor choice of word, for which I am flagellating my naked body with a spiked rawhide whip using my left hand while I type this with my right. That is surely an image to die for. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:46, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
They say that kangaroo hide makes a very good whip for this purpose. Not that I have any contact with them, oh no. :) Tevildo (talk) 22:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
IMHO, it was a fizzer, and many innocent but less well informed business people, and even home computer users, were ripped off unmercifully by unethical IT practitioners. HiLo48 (talk) 21:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and 2K14 should not exist. HiLo48 (talk) 21:50, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I think it's reasonable to change the redirect to point to the video game. I agree that it's very unlikely anyone will enter "2K14" if they're looking for the article on the year. Tevildo (talk) 22:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't know the origin of it, but there seem to be many non-computer-game uses of 2K14 to mean the year 2014. Likewise 2K13 and 2K12. I didn't try any earlier years. -- BenRG (talk) 06:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Also, for each of those years there are at least two games with 2Kxx in the title, so it is probably a bad idea to redirect to one of them. -- BenRG (talk) 06:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I've changed 2K14 to a proper dab page, in the light of the above. Tevildo (talk) 12:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
2K Sports might clear things up. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:27, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

Iambic trimeter[edit]

  • did I do those lines right? I can't truly know if ε in the words "τερπνοῖς" and "καθῆντ" is long or short, right?
 -    -  u  -\  -  -  u   -\ u u  uu u  x
ν δ’ ἄγκος ἀ\μφίκρημνον, ὕ\δασι διάβροχον,
x  -    u -\  -   -  u  - \  x    -   u   x
καθντ’ ἔχουαι χεῖρας ἐν \τερπνοῖς πόνοις.

and "τά" has short vowel? or I can't know? thanks! -- (talk) 20:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

In ancient Greek in standard Ionic orthography, ε not part of ει is always short, while the vowel of τα is short in the neuter nominative/accusative plural, but long in the (rather rare) feminine nominative/accusative dual. AnonMoos (talk) 07:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
The "ε" in "τερπνοῖς" is short as a vowel, but its syllable is long by position because of the consonant cluster following it. As for the "α" in "καθῆντ(ο)", if that's what you were asking about, it's also short, the word being an inflectional form of wikt:κάθημαι. Your scanning of the metre seems correct to me. Fut.Perf. 10:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

Christian denominations which do not receive the Eucharist[edit]

Are there Christian groups which do not practice receiving Communion? If so, what are their reasons for doing so? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The Quakers do not recognize any formal sacraments. According to our article Sacrament#Non-sacramental churches, they believe "that all activities should be considered holy", and consider it inappropriate to single out any particular activity as being "more sacred" than another. See this article from a Quaker meeting-house in Philadelphia. Tevildo (talk) 11:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
The Jehovah's Witnesses don't receive it either, from what I understand. Apparently, they think themselves unworthy, and instead pass it from person to person. Plasmic Physics (talk) 12:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
According to our Eucharist article, Jehovah's Witnesses observe an annual feast of "The Memorial" on a date corresponding to Passover. Tevildo (talk) 12:44, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Jehovah's Witnesses have published "The Eucharist—The Facts Behind the Ritual" at
Wavelength (talk) 14:46, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
That depends entirely on who you ask. Plasmic Physics (talk) 01:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Of course they are Christians. See No True Scotsman to understand why... --Jayron32 01:11, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The requirements for being rightfully called a 'Christian', varies from one denomination to the next. So, it does depend on who you ask. There is no absolute right or wrong answer. Plasmic Physics (talk) 01:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus can consider themselves Christian. And the verbiage in the JW link provided by Wavelength a little ways up certainly sounds like "Christian talk" to me. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The different requirements stems from the disagreement over the exact teachings of Jesus. Plasmic Physics (talk) 04:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Certainly. The "requirements" established by any particular denomination for itself, carry no weight with other denominations. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
If anyone who reveres Jesus is a "Christian", then JW's are Christian (but so are Muslims and Bahais). If you only include "mainstream" Christianity which is "orthodox" according to traditional definitions (which means accepting the decrees of all recognized church councils from the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. to the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D., among other things), then they're not Christian. There's no one definition of "Christian" which will satisfy all people, but things aren't quite as squishily subjective as you seemed to imply (at least when applying definitions to church bodies with formally-defined doctrines)... AnonMoos (talk) 03:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
So how do we get the numbers for Christianity? HiLo48 (talk) 03:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Are you referring to the statement "2.2 billion adherents"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Yep. It's nonsense to start with. And if we removed every group another "Christian" says aren't proper Christians, we have a much smaller number. HiLo48 (talk) 07:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Those numbers come from adding up each denomination's claims as to the number of adherents within their sect. Various sources will break that number down, and one thing that's kind of amazing after all these centuries is that Catholicism still claims about half of that 2+ billion. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
It's a bit like the number of extrasolar planets dilemma. Plasmic Physics (talk) 04:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
It depends whether you're looking from the inside or the outside. If you're a Christian, you know what you believe the true meaning of Christianity is, and anyone who doesn't conform to that can't really be Christian. If I was a Christian I'd probably be very keen to distance myself from the Westboro Baptists, for example. But if you're not a Christian, as I'm not, then which ones are right and which ones aren't isn't an issue, so every kind of religion that claims to be Christian is Christian. I just note that there are differences between them and that some of them are weirder than others. Muslims and Baha'is aren't Christian, because they don't claim to be (and as far as I know don't consider Jesus to the the Christ or Messiah, which I would have thought is the diagnostic of Christianity). --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
There's an exception to your view about who Christians think is a Christian. For the total numbers in the Christianity article, they're happy to claim anyone who has ever been near a church. I find it pretty hypocritical. HiLo48 (talk) 08:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Who does "they" in your sentence refer to?? Most such estimates of world religiously-affiliated populations are made by sociologists or demographers working with rough-and-ready definitions of major religions, not by Christians anxious to inflate the Christian population... AnonMoos (talk) 13:38, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The absence of ego that Christians (and other religions) are enjoined to live by would mean that, whatever Christian denomination you may belong to, you would accept that those who adhere to other denominations are not "wrong" just because their interpretation of the Scriptures differs from your own. It's supposed to be about you living your life in accordance with the rules as you understand them; not about judging others for daring to live by a different understanding of the rules. Nowhere in the New Testament does it talk about people needing to join any particular version of Christianity. Now, some people use, or abuse, a religion to give some legitimacy to their bigoted attitudes; but there are those who truly and sincerely believe that such attitudes are divinely inspired, and others can no more say they are "wrong" than vice-versa. I'm sure the Westboro Baptists contain examples of both. That isn't to say that anyone should be allowed to practise illegal discrimination or vilification. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 09:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Contrasting ideas cannot be right simultaneously, as much as a single coin cannot simultaneously land on heads and tails. Accordingly, if one promotes one idea to be correct, the other must inherently be wrong. The Bible does mention the existence of a particular "version of Christianity" - the Nicolaitans. Plasmic Physics (talk) 12:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Err - this is the fallacy of false dilemma. One can only make this sort of statement if the ideas in question are genuine logical contraries, which doesn't apply to most real-life statements, and certainly doesn't apply to the views of Jehovah's Witnesses and mainstream Chalcedonian Christianity. Many Christians, of course, don't consider JW's (or Mormons, or Roman Catholics, etc etc ad nauseam) to be "real" Christians, but nobody can validly make this assertion on purely logical grounds, as you appear to be. Apologies if I've misrepresented your position. Tevildo (talk) 12:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Tevildo --Things are simply not as subjective and indeterminately ultra-relativistic as you seem to imply. JW-ism and Mormonism factually and objectively fall outside the traditional definitions of "mainstream"/"orthodox" Christianity, which means accepting the decrees of all recognized church councils from the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. to the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D., among other things. Groups which were not already in existence in 451 A.D. (such as the Coptic and Armenian churches were), but instead were founded in the 19th or 20th centuries with doctrines strongly divergent from traditional "orthodoxy", are likely to be rejected as Christian by mainstream Christians. Calling Catholicism not true Christianity has nothing to do with any of this, but instead goes back to the bitterness of reformation/counter-reformation disputes. Most of the people vocally maintaining that position nowadays are either semi-weirdos (such as Jack Chick) or semi-extremists on the sharp edge of sectarian disputes (such as Ian Paisley), or are none too traditionally orthodox/mainstream themselves... AnonMoos (talk) 13:38, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, they are, because I say so! So nyah! My main intention was to highlight the logical fallacy in Plasmic's statement, rather than to address the issue "Are JW's real Christians?" I agree that their beliefs do not coincide with those decided on at Chalcedon, and that this takes them outside "traditional mainstream" Christianity. I would take issue with the view that this takes them outside Christianity altogether, or that there is an objective test for "Christianity" that they fail. Why stop at Chalcedon? We can go all the way to Vatican II and allow the Pope to make the decision - a view to which many of my Roman Catholic friends would subscribe. However, although the Pope has the authority to make such rulings in the context of Catholicism, I would argue that no individual or organization is in a position to do the same for Christianity as a whole, and, if a particular group of people consider themselves Christian, there isn't anyone that should (legitimately) prevent them from so doing. Tevildo (talk) 14:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Baptists are among the largest denominations in America. They were started in the 1600s, but they definitely qualify as part of "mainstream", at least in America. They are quick to claim that Mormonism is not "true" Christianity. But they don't much care for Catholicism either. Christianity is about believing in the teachings of Jesus, not about whatever those characters decided at the First Council of Nicaea. The "fundamentals" of "true" Christianity are faith, hope and love. And the core belief was stated by the apostle Simon/Peter: "You are the Christ, the son of God." Anyone who adheres to those biblical tenets can call themselves Christian, whether the First Council of Nicaea or "mainstream" Christians would approve or not. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, traditionally (not including the Southern Baptist Convention in recent decades) the Baptists have placed greater emphasis on sola scriptura and "the priesthood of all believers" than on formal credal statements. However, completely discarding such things means unmooring from Christian history and traditions. Some splinter-of-splinter-of-splinter Baptist mini-subgroups have ended up in very strange places, which could perhaps be taken as an argument for not indiscriminately jettisoning all traditions overboard... AnonMoos (talk) 01:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Tevildo, please note that I have not assumed a position in this discussion. Plasmic Physics (talk) 20:51, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The point being that there are really no human-invented "requirements" restricting who can consider themselves Christian and who can't. There is no world governing body of Christianity. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Then we are in agreement, since that is what I have been saying. Plasmic Physics (talk) 21:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
However, there are a number of criteria (such as ... 451 A.D. etc. etc.) which can be used to evaluate groups fairly objectively to see how closely their doctrines approach towards traditionally-defined "mainstream" or "orthodox" Christianity. There's no one definition of the word "Christian" which will satisfy everyone, but in most cases it's not too hard to distinguish groups which would be considered more core or mainstream according to traditional definitions from more peripheral or fringe groups. AnonMoos (talk) 01:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Traditional vs. non-traditional... a lot of those "non-traditional" denominations included a communion ritual at various times. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Edison, Jehovah's Witnesses have answered your question at
Wavelength (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
They SAY they are Christians. Any cult can say that. But in the link they say "However, in a number of ways, we are different from other religious groups that are called Christian." If you dig a bit deeper, as in Scientology or many other cults, you learn some of the divergent and surprising views thair teachings actually include. They say that they are "different " from mainstream Christian groups in about every way,such that they are the only "true" Christians and all the other so-called Christians are not. This prevents tossing them into the same basket as other Christian denominations, by their own declaration. Their beliefs include denying that Jesus died on a cross (they are confident it was just a "stake"), and in stating that he was just the angel Michael, who had been created by God, put into a human body during the years Jesus lived, then afterwards becoming the angel Michael again, with no resurrection. So: no divinity for Jesus, no crucifixion, no resurrection. Edison (talk) 15:06, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Making stuff up that has no biblical basis is why some have labeled the Roman Catholic Church a "cult". Pretty freakin' big cult, though. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Mormon Church at Kealia, Hawaii[edit]

Is there a Mormon Church at Kealia, Hawaii? There was one in 1895 and 1906.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Latter-Day Saints Churches located in and around Kealia, Hawaii 96751   —E: (talk) 21:04, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Hmmm... this one is very close, (3.3 miles, walking) but doesn't show up on that list:  4561 Ohia St, Kapa‘a, HI 96746 (talk) 00:31, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The source seems to indicate it was in Kealia, not in the neighboring towns. It might no longer exist.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Kealia is an unincorporated community, containing about 10 buildings; [I can't find where I read that] so on maps it shows up as a single location (most likely the post office). And, the coordinates that I used were from the Wikipedia article (Kealia, Hawaii) -and Google maps put that location out in the middle of nowhere in a farm field. ~Anyway, ... (talk) 01:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Piéton a tributary of the Sambre[edit]

Several of the detailed histories of the Waterloo Campaign written in the 1900s mention the Piéton a tributary of the Sambre (eg here). It does not appear that any Wikipedia language has an article on it. There is a village in the vicinity called fr:Gouy-lez-Piéton, and it is possible that it is now a feeder steam into the Brussels Charleroi Canal.

The trouble is that in looking for reliable sources for Piéton is more difficult than for some words because "piéton" apparently means "pedestrian" in French, so lots of false positives appear in searches. I am hoping someone who's French is better than mine can find out what has happened to the river and write a small stub on it (in either French or English). If it is placed on French Wikipedia then I will translate it. If there is a better place to post this request please let me know. -- PBS (talk) 23:00, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

If you don't have any luck here, you might try over at Wikipedia: WikiProject European history, or Wikipedia: WikiProject France.   — (talk) 23:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the idea I have placed a link to here on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject France page. -- PBS (talk) 23:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Hope this helps: and Akseli9 (talk) 23:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Salut PBS, you could have a look in french at fr:Piéton (ruisseau) and in dutch at nl:Piéton (rivier). Alvar 08:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Thanks to all who contributed. The article now exists Piéton and I was able to use the information to add a list of tributaries to the Sambre article. -- PBS (talk) 14:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Why do every piece of land have to be owned by a country?[edit]

Why do every piece of land on Earth have to be owned by a country? Are there any human colonies in Antarctica or in the deep seas? (talk) 01:23, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Every piece of land is not owned by a country. See Antarctic Treaty System. That being said, if there is some plot of land which is not under the control of a state, who is to keep people living there from lawlessness and the like? --Jayron32 01:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
More to the point, who is to stop the people living there making it a state? Iapetus (talk) 13:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The Antarctic Treaty only suspends the operation of national claims to Antarctica, but they still exist. However, a large section of Antartica is not claimed by any country. This is mentioned deep in the article under Antarctic Treaty System#Legal system. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
See also Bir Tawil - 2,060 km2 of land on the Egypt-Sudan border, claimed by neither state. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:43, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
That's because each of them thinks it belongs to the other (so that the 'winning' side can claim Hala'ib) - not because it's really part of no country. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The Congo Free State was not owned by Belgium, but was effectively the personal property of King Leopold II of Belgium. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 02:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
And ask the Congolese how well that went for them... --Jayron32 02:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
This is a strange question and appears to treat the term "piece of land" as if it can't also be a "country", which it can, because some countries are very small indeed. Wherever there is a human population, some form of government arrives, even if it is only a personal dictatorship. Every human community is subject to some sovereign power, and if a piece of land with people on it has no state above it (as, for instance, Easter Island has Chile), then the local power is also the sovereign power. In the case of a piece of land with no people on it, it is almost certain to be claimed as part of the territory of one or more countries, and the whole of Antarctica is subject to territorial claims, some of them overlapping. I wasn't aware of the exception of Bir Tawil mentioned by AndyTheGrump, and I shall be surprised if even two or three more exceptions can be identified, but of course large areas of the world have little effective control, because they are so remote from security forces. However, with regard to the law of the sea, much of the world's surface is not claimed as any country's territorial waters. Moonraker (talk) 02:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC) -- Land not owned by anybody would be terra nullius. Libertarians have been looking for places outside the jurisdiction of any state to set up a libertarian utopia since at least the 1970s (see Minerva Reefs) but without much luck... AnonMoos (talk) 03:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Australia was settled in 1788 on the legal basis of terra nullius, and it took till 1992 for that fiction to be turned on its head. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Even trivial little rocks just barely sticking up above the ocean surface are subject to fiercely contested ownership, which may even become violent. Such competition occurs not because the rocks themselves have any value, but because they come with large exclusive economic zones attached, where the sovereign has the sole right to determine who may catch fish, drill for oil, etc. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
As the Flanders and Swann song goes:
Though we're thrown out of Malta,
Though Spain should take Gibraltar,
Why should we flinch or falter,
When England's got Rockall.
There is no most islands have an economic value because of their seabed potential it is extremely unlikely that such potential will not be wanted by some state or other. This is the or at least the predominant underlying reason for the disputes over ownership of islands such as the Falklands, Liancourt Rocks and the Pinnacle islands the last of which could become a hot war at any moment. [All most] all islands were claimed by imperial powers in the rush for empire in the late 19th and early 20th century, those claims have be continued by successor states. The neutral territories between states are often recognition that no agreement has yet been reached, there is nothing new in this see for example Debatable Lands that used to exist between England and Scotland (plus ça change, plus c'est la même) and more modern examples suh as Saudi–Iraqi neutral zone where the border is still not precisely agreed. Also the unfortunate boarder wars that Eritrea has been involved Eritrean–Ethiopian War, Hanish Islands conflict and the Djiboutian–Eritrean border conflict are example not of no claims to ownership but what can happens when two more more states claim the land. At the moment the closest the world gets to unclaimed land is territory under the [temporary] protection of the United Nations, but of course such areas are inhabited it is just that the members of the UN have not agreed to whom the territory belongs. -- PBS (talk) 14:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
PBS, I don't understand the sentence starting "There is no most islands have an economic value", particularly the first 5 words. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:23, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Surely Scotland's got Rockall? —Tamfang (talk) 08:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Even Sealand tried to set up a government. StuRat (talk) 14:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Some DMZ's might qualify as "not owned by any country", in that everyone avoids them completely. StuRat (talk) 14:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The question seems philosophically malformed. I mean, I hereby claim the planets and other appurtenances of Tau Ceti on behalf of Wikipedia. Voila! A claim. To prevent such claims being made you'd have to shut up everyone in the world; or more likely, pretend that their claims don't count, that only certain claims made in a certain way count. (Like is proposed for asteroid mining where some rich guy can afford to spray radio transmitters at asteroids. For some reason sending a signal from a certain kind of probe would make it Officially Theirs. For millennia afterward their heirs and descendants will probably be making and losing fortunes speculating in the ownership of these asteroids and their hypothetical resources, like those English lords without lands people were talking about here a few weeks ago, long after all hope of mining them had been given up and even the idea that the ancients had once gone into space had been dismissed by reputable authorities as a myth. (OTOH it's a stronger basis than Bitcoins) Wnt (talk) 15:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately, your claim to Tau Ceti would not be allowed under the Outer Space Treaty... -- AnonMoos (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The treaty prohibits a state from laying claim to a celestial body. It's not clear that it prohibits an individual from making such a claim. (talk) 15:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
The treaty states that all off-earth activities by "non-governmental entities" require the authorization and supervision of the appropriate national governments, which would seem to render ineffective and meaningless all private property claims without governmental support... AnonMoos (talk) 21:17, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
He needs to go and plant a flag on Tau Ceti and see if he's challenged. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Joining two political parties in the US[edit]

Is there any reason I can't be both a Democrat and a Republican and vote in both of their primaries? Isn't there an absolute right to freedom of association? (talk) 08:02, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

When registering to vote, we choose which party to 'belong to" (dem, rep or ind)... though I assume this might vary according to state or county jurisdiction(?). not sure how that affects primary voting, i've heard of ppl voting in primaries outside of their registered affiliation. El duderino (abides) 09:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Some states have an open primary, which means you can vote in either primary, or both, regardless of your party affiliation. The concern is that some may use their vote to sabotage the opposite party, by voting for a nut job who they don't expect to be elected in the general election. This could result in both primaries selecting "unelectable" candidates, which would be a bad situation. StuRat (talk) 14:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Isn't this what happens anyway? Mingmingla (talk) 17:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Sometimes. And if the parties don't like it, they can work on getting the given state's laws changed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
As our article says, Freedom of association generally implies that someone else can't stop you from associating with other people if they want to associate with you, such as being part of or forming a party of willing participants. It doesn't imply others have to associate with you if they don't want to or that a party has to accept you.
Actually that would frequently be considered the opposite of freedom of association when you're forcing people to associate with you when they don't want to, such as preventing a party from setting conditions on your acceptance as a member.
To put it a different way, if you are preventing from forming a party which accepts Republicans and Democrats, some may consider that a violation of freedom of association. If the Republican Party or Democrat Party chooses to expel/reject the membership of anyone who joins your party that's considered them exercising their right to freedom of association, not a violation of it.
Note as our article says, current intepretation of the constitution in the US generally implies there isn't an absolute right of freedom of association since there are restrictions such as considering race in making or enforcming private contracts.
Nil Einne (talk) 10:39, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Why do Americans need to declare their party preference when registering as voters - is there no secrecy of the ballot in America? If a South African government or civil service official were to demand to know my political affiliation they would in fact be committing a crime. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Declaring a party affiliation does not constitute violating secrecy of ballot. All it does is increase the chance of spam mailings and phone calls from politicians' staffs. Some primaries will also contain non-partisan candidates or issues, which will appear on both parties' primary ballots. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I think we need to explain the difference between a Party election (primary) and a General election. First we have the Party elections - The voter officially joins a party (registers), which gives him/her the right to decide who the party's candidates will be. Republicans get to decide who will be the Republican candidates... Democrats get to decide who will be the Democratic candidates... etc. The voter shows up at the polling place, is asked which party he/she belongs to and votes in the appropriate primary... but who he/she votes for is secret.
Then there is the general election. Here, the voter is no longer voting as a Democrat or as a Republican... but as a Citizen. The voter is not asked which party he/she belongs to. The voter is free to vote for anyone, regardless of party affiliation. The ballot is secret. Blueboar (talk) 11:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Further, the system for primary elections varies between states. Not all require voters to declare a preference at registration. See Primary election#Types. -- (talk) 12:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Corrected a few typos above.
Also I should clarify I'm not saying that it's impossible for a primary election system to be seen to violate freedom of association. I meant simply not in the simplistic case outlined by the OP. For example if a closed primary is the only legal option and not the choice of the party, then that may be seen as problematic. That said, although as with many outsiders I find much of primary system in the US including the administration weird, I don't think anywhere forbids non closed primaries. I suspect if anything the more likely problem is that a closed primary is required if you want govermental support for your primary which is a more complicated issue.
Of course the high level of governmental involvement in the primary system is one thing I find weird. Particularly since in some states there seems to be weird stuff like the that mentioned a few weeks ago, ability of the government workers to challenge someone's eligibility based on fairly loose criteria and how neutrality is enforced for such challenges. And there does seem to be a weird disconnect between the parties and the primaries. I recall that during the 2008 election cycle, some states held primaries in violation of what the parties themselves wanted and so the parties were reluctant to accept the primaries.
Nil Einne (talk) 14:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC) -- In Texas, the only way you declare your party affiliation to the state is to show up at a primary election and vote. If you vote in the Republican party primary, then trying to vote in the Democratic primary would be double voting, and vice versa. Further, the poll worker may stamp your voter registration card (which are mailed out to registered voters every two years) to prevent a Republican primary voter from voting in the Democratic primary runoffs and vice versa (though with instant poll-worker access to computerized vote records, the card stamping now seems to be optional)... AnonMoos (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The purpose of the primaries is to allow members of parties to nominate their candidates. No one forces you to vote in a primary. But if you do, it's only fair to declare your party affiliation. Every state's laws are different, as noted many times here. In the general election, you can be "both Democrat and Republican" by splitting your vote among members of different parties. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Don't assume party declarations are sincere, let alone binding declarations of association. Game theory applies to all games, including American electoral politics. See party raiding (which article helpfully disambiguates this common practice from the reportedly equally fun, though now politically unpopular, practice of the Great All American panty raid), citing a couple of recent examples of non-party members' strategic use of an opposed party's primary elections. Game on! Paulscrawl (talk) 18:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
If the political parties were concerned about this loophole, they would work on getting it closed. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
They have indeed. Political parties have long sued for preferential clarification of the ever-ambiguous and controversial public/private nature of political parties and the applicability of freedom of association, the OP's question.
A recent review of party efforts to retain control is Robert C. Wigton, The Parties in Court: American Political Parties Under the Constitution (Lexington Books, 2013 ISBN 978-0739189672 ). A freely accessible source of one such party effort to close one such party raiding loophole (cited in Wigton) is Gary L. Scott and Craig L. Car, Political Parties Before, the Bar: The Controversy Over Associational Rights (Seattle University Law Review, 1982). The blanket primary at issue in that Washington case has resurfaced in that state and others (California) as the nonpartisan blanket primary (in Louisiana, its origin, the "jungle primary.")
So yes, political parties are aware and care about these loopholes, as a long history of party litigation attests. Paulscrawl (talk) 20:49, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to switch back and forth, I want to vote in both parties' primaries. If it's illegal, why? If it's legal, how do I do it? I live in Hawaii. (talk) 19:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Stu's link to open primary redirects to a section that seems to have been removed. I've never voted elsewhere, but in Massachusetts registered independents (that is, registered voters who declined to declare affiliation with either major party) may cast a ballot in a primary election for either party. The poll worker asks which primary you wish to vote in, hands you the appropriate ballot, and you may vote without declaring for the party you pick. Of course you can only pick one (i.e. vote once) per election, but nothing stops you from going back and forth from one party to the other in consecutive primaries. To 72.130, voting in both primaries would be illegal because voting more than one time in a single election is illegal (as it should be). Where the two parties have separate primary ballots, you don't get to have more than one ballot. In a non-partisan primary you can vote for whoever you like and the two top candidates will have a run-off election, but that's almost always a local rather than a state election.
Now, I think the danger of bad-faith voters trying to pick a nutty or unelectable candidate in their "enemy" party's primary is exaggerated - most voters have bigger fish to fry picking their own party's eventual candidate. Or, in cases where their own favorite is an incumbent who doesn't face a primary challenger, they may cast a ballot for him/her anyway or just not vote at all.all of which [citation needed] In any case, it may either fail or backfire: I know people who openly wondered if they should vote for George W. Bush in the 2000 MA Republican primary, because he was "obviously unelectable," while a John McCain presidency would be a distinct but mildly unpleasant possibility. Now - "What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence." ☯.Zen Swashbuckler.☠ 20:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
If you live in Hawaii, you must ask Hawaii legal history, the Hawaii legislature, and/or the Hawaii courts for "why", but administrative rules are plainly stated:
The Primary Election is a nomination process to choose candidates who will represent the political parties at the General Election. You, the voter, select the candidates of the political party of your choice. Your choice of party and candidates remains secret.
When voting in the primary, you must select only one party in the Select a Party section of the ballot card, then vote for the party you selected. If you do not select a party and you vote in more than one party ballot, your vote will not be counted.
More at
Paulscrawl (talk) 23:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • NY has closed elections, meaning to vote in a primary the voter must be registered in some party before the election, and those registered independent will be turned away. Interesting, though, in the general election the same candidate may show up under more than one party line. For example, NY has a Conservative Party, which sometimes has the same candidate as the Republican Party (Giuliani was both the GOP and Conservative candidate) and a vote for him under either party counts as a vote for him. For example John Smith gets 35,000 GOP votes and Bob Jones gets 41,000 votes as a Democrat, but John Smith also gets 7,000 votes as the Conservative Party candidate, then John Smith wins the election.
NJ, however, while it has "closed" primaries, allows voters, unlike in NY, to declare for a different party at the polling place. Registered as an independent, I was able to vote in the Republican party ballot simply by signing a form of change of party affiliation right outside the booth. Neither does NJ have multiple line candidacy, so only one (and not the same) person can appear under any party line. μηδείς (talk) 17:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Why is Australia part of the "West"?[edit]

Australia is located near Asia. Why is it not called "The Far East", even though it's closer to the other Far Eastern countries than any "Western" country? Who invented the directional naming (Far East, Near East, the West, the Byzantine, etc.) anyway? Or maybe Australia is considered the "West", because it's located farther west than the United States of America? Does the Western world cover Central and South Americas too, since they were previously under Spain and Portugal's control? (talk) 20:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

See western world. Australia was colonized by (and retains close ties to) Great Britain, and culturally speaking it is part of the West despite its geographical location. Colonized nations that retain fewer elements of their colonizers' culture are less/are less seen as part of the West. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 20:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on Australia's close ties with Britain. We share a queen with them (as does Canada), and the Union Jack is part of our flag. Many Australians want those factors to change. The most popular Test Cricket series are those between Australia and England, but that's a massive rivalry. What else is there? HiLo48 (talk) 03:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
There's language and capital. Given what I know about the long run structure of Australian capital, I'd put more emphasis on the capital than language. Australians seem to consume a higher volume of UK media than, for example USians, though this might be long run ABC contracts. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Some shared UK/Australia culture in no particular order: pubs, meat pies, rhyming slang, military tradition, fish and chips, sausages, Anglicanism, tea drinking, trade unionism and the Westminster system. A bit subjective, but we also seem to share a laconic sense of humour. Alansplodge (talk) 10:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
It is more of a geopolitical designation than a geographical one, (as inferred above).   — (talk) 20:29, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
As far as Central and South America (and the Caribbean), if the world is solely divided into East and West, then yes, they are "the West". However, "the Third World" is often used as a category, too, which would include many of the less developed nations there, as well as in Africa and Asia. StuRat (talk) 20:40, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The OP may be amused to learn that Australia is also sometimes described as being part of the North. HiLo48 (talk) 22:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Getting back to central America, the correct reference is the Western Hemisphere, which is different from the geopolitical "West". --Xuxl (talk) 13:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Ever tried getting there from California by going east? μηδείς (talk) 17:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

Median earnings and wealth[edit]

I see articles like List of countries by wealth per adult with wealth shown per adult and per capita. Does Wikipedia have articles with median figures? If so, I can't find them.

With insane inequality these days (The 85 richest people in the world own the same wealth as the bottom 3.5 billion people. -- Source: Conference on Inclusive Capitalism), would articles about this sort of thing be more useful if median figures were used? I'm bad at maths, so tell me if this is a stupid question. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

See Middle Class Political Economist: U.S. Trails at Least 15 OECD Countries in Median Wealth (Thursday, July 19, 2012)
Wavelength (talk) 03:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
See List of countries by income equality and List of countries by distribution of wealth.
Wavelength (talk) 03:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
See "Median household income".—Wavelength (talk) 03:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
See BBC News - What is the world's average wage? (29 March 2012)
and Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 May 20#Global net worth.
Wavelength (talk) 03:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. :) Actually, only Median household income shows median. The other links don't. And middleclasspoliticaleconomist and BBC are blocked here in China. Thank you, though. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
And yes, medians are quite useful when something is as wildly skewed as incomes or wealth. If you use averages, the population appears to be much wealthier than they really are. For example, if we have a group of 101 people, 100 of which have a $20,000 yearly income, and 1 of which has a hundred million dollar annual income, the average is $1,009,901, and the median is $20,000. If the income of the majority drop in half to $10,000 a year, while the rich guy's income doubles to 200 million a year, the average then climbs to $1,990,099, while the median drops to $10,000. So, FOX News would use the average, and say everything is going great, as average incomes have almost doubled to nearly two million dollars. However, the situation is far from rosy for the 99%, as median incomes show. StuRat (talk) 12:30, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The numbers in the various sources fpr median income are discrepant, with some showing the US near the top. The GINI chart shows the US with less income disparity than many of the countries claimed to be more equitable. What gives? Edison (talk) 13:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Hail, hail Fredonia, land of the brave and free[edit]

Fans of the Marx Brothers are well aware of the incident regarding Duck Soup in which Fredonia, New York attempted to get the Marxist country renamed. As far as we know, did any other Fredonias make official statements about the name of the country in the movie? Nyttend (talk) 04:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I've wondered why Sylvania didn't complain. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Roman ball game (Follis)[edit]

I'm looking for information about a Roman ball game called Follis (described in our article at Balloon (game), but not very usefully). Anything which would help to create a playable version would be appreciated! My googling has so far only revealed that the objective was not to let the ball touch the ground. (This is for a LARP event, so perfect authenticity is not required, but it's nice to keep it close if we can). Other suggestions for ancient world (around the Mediterranean) games played with a roughly football sized object (in this case, the head of Medusa*) also appreciated.

*I never said it was a sensible idea... MChesterMC (talk) 11:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

for whatever reason the catalan wiki gives more information, talks about how it was a heavy leather ball filled with air and kept up using the arms (fists or armbands) and played in small enclosures perhaps as to avoid injury..the source in the article you linked to gives some additional information on follis such as that the armband is a wooden bracer/gauntlet thing idek??~Helicopter Llama~ 13:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
also this marcus guy called it "the least violent game"
That's not Martial's characterization, that's an endnote written by the editor: in this case Rev. H.M. Stevenson, M.A. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 14:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Seems like a volleyball-type game. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

"A Study of the Geography of 1 Enoch 17-19"[edit]

Please quote this for me/us at Biblical cosmology...
Bautch, Kelley Coblentz (2003). A Study of the Geography of 1 Enoch 17-19. Brill. ISBN 9789004131033., pp. 233–234.
As you may guess I do not have access to this work.
This work is cited at the end of Biblical cosmology#Cosmic geography (currently note 54) in Biblical cosmology. I had to change the article text here and now I am wondering if the text is accurate. Does Bautch really say "Enoch traveled to the ends of the earth" or the like? All I can find is a text in 1 Enoch saying that such and such will happen "even to the ends of the earth"... and for this Wikipedia article, that is something very different. tahc chat 16:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
If you have JSTOR access (I don't), the answer might be found in: A Study of the Geography of 1 Enoch 17-19: "No One Has Seen What I Have Seen" by Kelley Coblentz Bautch —in: (talk) 18:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Dear User: that is just a review of the book I am asking about. Does anyone have access to pages 233–234 of the book (A Study of the Geography of 1 Enoch 17-19) itself? tahc chat 19:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
One search referenced that review with something like: "...Enoch then traveled north, to the ends of the earth" (paraphrase: mine). Although this doesn't relate to that citation, there is an additional reference for [1 Enoch: Chapter 23; 1,2]: "From thence I went to another place to the west of the ends of the earth." — Book of Enoch. From- The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament R.H. Charles Oxford: The Clarendon Press. Section I. Chapters I-XXXVI on: Wesley Center Online; Wesley Center for Applied Theology, Northwest Nazarene University   — (talk) 19:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Joseph Lane's personal slave[edit]

Joseph Lane kept a personal slave until 1878. Do we know who he/she was named, where they came from, how Lane bought or came to enslave him/her and the person's ultimate fate?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:40, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

If you're feeling ambitious (unlike myself), you could check out the Northwest Digital Archives: (talk) 18:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC)  —P.s.—  ...or maybe not. The "digital" part of the archive is just a description of the (non-digital) content of the archive: so, unless you happen to be in Eugene, Oregon... (talk) 19:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Where is J. Howard Marshall's money?[edit]

Both Anna Nicole AND the son who was fighting her for the nearly $50 million inheritance died before the case was settled. What happened to the money? Is it still in limbo? Has anyone received the money? What will likely happen to it? Bali88 (talk) 21:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

"The case is currently pending before the 9th circuit court of appeals"Mogism (talk) 21:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Have relevant newspaper clippings but incomplete citation data[edit]

I've been given a scrapbook with many newspaper and journal clippings about a notable family company established in 1889 in Seattle, Washington, USA. I've drafted an article on the company's history, but the clippings are presenting me with some citation difficulties. Some are hand-labeled with citation information, but others have incomplete data--only dates published, or no date or title of source at all. Is there a way to verify/find information for complete citations from the titles of the clippings from the early 1900's? Some of the clippings are from the larger newspapers---Seattle Times, Seattle Post Intelligencer, Tacoma News Tribune and Ledger. Others are from industry journals like Barrel and Box, Daily Journal of Commerce, Wood and Wood Products, and some appear to be from church-related newspapers. I appreciate any advice you can provide. --Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 22:46, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

You may be able to plug phrases from the articles into a search (in a newspaper database or the like) and find the dates/sources that way. It's similar to putting a line from a song into a search engine in order to find its title.--Cam (talk) 01:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

British Daughters of the American Revolution[edit]

Are there any members of the Daughters of the American Revolution who are from the British side of the war (Not talking about British chapters of the DAR, though)? I am guessing not unless they have other ancestors who fought on the American side. But is there an organization for descendants of British combatants and loyalists?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Also have their been any descendants of American Indians who have sought membership in the DAR? According to American Revolutionary War, five tribes fought on the side of the Americans.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Kavebear, you might be interested in the free DAR publication, Forgotten Patriots – African American and American Indian Patriots of the Revolutionary War: A Guide to Service, Sources, and Studies (2008). links to free download of 874 pp. PDF book,and a 82 pp. 2008-2011 Supplement. Fascinating stuff! Paulscrawl (talk) 20:59, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the DAR, you should review the website,[13] which indicates you need to be a female, descended from someone who fought on the American side. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Also this Daughters of the American Revolution#Eligibility, which is why I assumed it wouldn't be, but there is always outspoken individuals who don't abide by rules and lawsuits and everything. This question might be farfetched as asking if African Americans can join the DAR fifty years ago.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
There's also the older but perhaps less well known Sons of the American Revolution, which has essentially the same requirements as the DAR.[14]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
So Benny's descendents through his daughter Sophia could join (or at least apply). Clarityfiend (talk) 05:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Theoretically, anyone could apply. Acceptance would be up to the organization. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:23, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
You may be interested inUnited Empire Loyalist, the honorific awarded to British sympathizers (an award accompanied by a land allotment) who resettled in Canada following the Revolutionary War. It does not apply to their descendants, though, only to the original Brits. --Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 23:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
My grandfather, who worked for Sears for a few decades in the middle of the last century, opening new stores in Canada during the '50s, liked to tell the story of how he was at some function or other in (I think) Ontario; upon hearing there was an American in the room, this guy comes up to him, glowering, and says "I want you to know I'm a United Empire Loyalist!" Spoiling for some kind of fight. Well, my granddad's been in Canada for a while at this point but never in one place for more than a few years, he doesn't know what the hell that is. So he looks at the guy, puts on a big salesman smile, and says to general laughter, "Well, I'm a Presbyterian myself!" ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 15:42, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
In the episode of Who Do You Think You Are? featuring Rob Lowe, he discovered that one of his ancestors had been a German who had fought for the British, been captured by the rebels, and accepted an American amnesty. As the ancestor had subsequently given monetary support to the rebels, Lowe was permitted to join the Sons of the American Revolution. So I guess the answer is "As long as your ancestor ended up on the 'right' side, and did something about it, and you can prove it, you're in". It seems very weird to me as a British genealogist. We have no direct equivalent here; while much was once made of having an ancestor who fought at the Battle of Hastings, in fact almost every Briton, of almost any ethnicity, is very likely to be descended not just from someone at the battle, but from William the Conqueror himself. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, 700 years is a big difference in time. While mathematically, it seems beyond likely that anyone with any European ancestry is descended from every European alive in the 11th century, (see Pedigree collapse for a discussion of the mathematics), there are two important distinction to be made 1) That is decidedly NOT true for the case in America, where 1776 is only 10 generations or so, AND most Americans have a genetic heritage that entirely arrived much more recently than that. Most Americans find that literally every ancestor they have is a more recent arrival in the U.S., only 10% (ish) of Americans would qualify for The Mayflower Society for example, and when you come forward another 5-6 generations to the Revolution, people have even less ancestors to "hit" someone who fought in the Revolution 2) There's a difference between knowing that you have an ancestry trail back to William the Conqueror, and being able to name all those ancestors. A big part of genealogy is not just proving your descended from someone like William the Conqueror, but knowing how to get from point A to point B. While every British resident with any British ancestry is absolutely descended from William the Conqueror, very few can reliably name every ancestor between him and them... --Jayron32 00:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

July 30[edit]

Cargo ship[edit]

Not sure where to post this. Anyhoo, wha t sort of cargo does a ship like thus carry? Also thisLihaas (talk) 00:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Vehicles apparently. Though I'm not sure what type just yet. Dismas|(talk) 00:32, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I've seen a ship like that docked in my city, offloading Japanese cars. HiLo48 (talk) 00:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
It seems to be a vehicle carrier built in 2010.[15] Bus stop (talk) 01:01, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
The relevant WP article seems to be Roll-on/roll-off#Car carriers. Alansplodge (talk) 11:03, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Here's a photo of Mermaid Ace in port, with her loading ramp down. The cones suggest they run two gangs of people, driving the vehicles off her. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 11:45, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Höegh Autoliners, her owners, says she carries 6500 CEU (where a CEU is a "car equivalent unit"). -- Finlay McWalterTalk 11:49, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Emstal is listed as a general cargo carrier, although she always seems to be configured for containers only. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 11:55, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


July 24[edit]

Blimber Road[edit]

I remember Blimber Road is a place in Dickens' novel "Dombey and Son", but I forget in which chapter the place is mentioned. I need your help here. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Searching inside the book finds Blimber and road (or) Road, but not together. (pp. 161, 217 and 384).   — (talk) 02:02, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
The novel is available from Project Gutenberg in plain text form here. By downloading it you can search the text yourself with any tools you like, and see that while several characters in the book are named Blimber, that name never occurs followed by a capital letter without punctuation intervening, as it would in "Blimber Road", "Blimber St.", or any other such street name. -- (talk) 06:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Googling the phrase "Blimber Road" led me (only) to Martin Amis's Lionel Asbo - the Google Books extract here also mentions the Dickensian-sounding "Squeers Free" (a school). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 07:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

July 25[edit]


Here is part of a poem I wrote. I seem to write most poems in this metre. I would like to know what type of metre it is.

  • We slip into the office
  • And I carefully choose my seat,
  • Another bloody meeting
  • In the awful office heat.

KägeTorä - () (Chin Wag) 02:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea what it's called (and Metre (poetry) didn't totally work for me, but it might make sense to you), but except for the second line, it matches this oldie:
I eat my peas with honey (7 syllables)
I've done it all my life (6 instead of 8)
They do taste kind of funny (7)
But it keeps them on my knife (7)
Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"Iambic trimeter", maybe? This may help too.[16]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:31, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks like some type of an iamb. Especially the 1st and 3rd lines are pure iambic. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Though I think it's mixed metre: 1 and 3 are iambic, 2 is anapestic, 4 is anapestic with iambic.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
It's ballad meter, with the "and" and "in" properly ending the first and third lines rather than beginning the second and fourth lines. Otherwise you're splitting a metrical foot across two lines. Not that that's intrinsically a bad thing to do; strictly regular form is easier to analyze, but that is hardly the first priority in writing poetry. John M Baker (talk) 15:45, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Word for low quality scientific papers[edit]

What word can be used for the type of papers/articles (usually humanitarian) which have low quality, have no or little sources, trivial conclusions, just verbose texts about nothing but pretending to be scientific, but nevertheless not pseudo-scientific in the traditional sense? This type of "science about nothing", "science for science's sake" is quite wide-spread today.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Do you have an example or two? Terms that come to mind are Pseudoscience [already mentioned] and Fringe science. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I think Любослов means something like what is described in "How science goes wrong" (The Economist, Oct 19, 2013). See also publish or perish, though it's not covered well there. All I could think of is fluff. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"Factoid" and "Truthiness" also come to mind. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:26, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, by the way I didn't mean that article, but a different negative consequence of the publish or perish maxim, i.e. not bunk or fake or cherry-picking, but lots of words signifying nothing. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Bullshit? InedibleHulk (talk) 20:07, July 25, 2014 (UTC)
The Sokal affair was an attempt to expose/criticise/parody the sort of writing I think you mean. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:48, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Любослов Езыкин -- Generic terms are "filler", "Curriculum Vitae fodder", "published only to bolster the author's credentials on paper towards achieving tenure" etc., but none of those are science-specific... AnonMoos (talk) 23:48, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.

—Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5)

( (talk) 03:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC))

Hence the Tom Lehrer comment about Gilbert and Sullivan: "Full of words and music, and signifying nothing." ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Humanitarian? As opposed to vegetarian? I think you mean "humanities". Anyway, how about "aerothermology" or hot-air research? (Which is presumably a valid scientific discipline.) The Sokal affair text, by the way, is characterised as outright pseudoscience in that article. That said, the word "bunk" is probably sufficient and covers it all, including bad science – if not borderline pseudoscience – like what Quentin Atkinson has become infamous for peddling. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 04:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
We are sometimes speaking about "salami publishing" - instead of giving the whole research at once, you slice it thinner and thinner and thinner (until a reviewer writes "this salami is sliced to thin" ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:33, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
As with this? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:07, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Stephan, I certainly hope he writes "this salami is sliced too thin", or I won't be reading any of his reviews. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:20, 26 July 2014 (UTC) of the errors I'm very aware of[f], and still seem to make over and over again. There must be something lo[o]se in my brain! Or English is a weird bastard of a language ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Never a truer word was spoken. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 00:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. No, the BS word is too straightforward and offending. I'd like more neutral euphemisms. It happened I was having a conversation with some guy about his "scientific" article which was not good at all, and he seemed to have no good competence (just shallow general knowledge; many ordinary RD/L-ers here know much more) in what he was writing about (in spite of his degrees and all) but I couldn't find a proper word to characterise it. At the end I decided not to use one word, I didn't name this and just said the paper was bad and shallow or like that. Nevertheless, he didn't like my very short simple critic and was very offended. He appeared to be such an arrogant person. I do not want to give his name though, sorry.
It is not about traditional pseudoscience, it is about "science-like" texts ("mimicry science", hm?). From the first look they are good but they are about nothing. Many words but no good science. I was lurking through a dictionary for scribble, twaddle, babble, etc. but no, too informal. Verbiage? Not exactly. So, probably, there is no good euphemism for that. These works are pretending to be scientific but they'd be better considered as petty amateur journalism. Like the guy above, he thinks he is smart and competent and has a degree (wow!), he writes about something he knows little about, he's sure his piece is worth something, but in reality it is nonsense and textual trash. He may even send it somewhere and get it published, because he has good connections ("science mafia"?). I have had no illusions about modern science, but frankly after that I was very disappointed about such low level of it. I don't want to and cannot call this "scientific", it should offend good "old school" scientists.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 15:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Whatever pretends to be science but really isn't, including pure useless blather (sorry for linking to it again, but it's just such a priceless example), is by definition pseudoscience. "Mimicry science" is a good way to put it (that I have thought of before myself actually). Full of logical and rhetorical fallacies? No consistent method or even structure and purpose, let alone theoretical background? You emerge more confused after reading than before because you have no damn idea what the paper is about? Congrats, you have a pseudoscientific paper on your hands. It's not a shame for a paper to be wrong; it's much worse to be so useless to fit the characterisation of not even wrong. When even an expert doesn't understand what the hell a paper is even about or for, it's not the expert who is at fault or too stupid. See also cargo cult science, pathological science and junk science for various other flavours of pseudoscience. If the paper uses a lot of superficially impressive terminology without rhyme nor reason, perhaps the term you are looking for is technobabble? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
You could also compare your colleague to Deepak Chopra if you would like to damn him with faint praise ... :-) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:41, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
The guy is not a physician but formally of our tribe, a linguist with MA degree, who works at American university. This is why it's bad. The article is not entirely hopeless, but of very low quality, it is a bunch of well-known facts and his unsourced or badly sources fantasies. As I said it is the level of amateur journalism, it is quite worth to be published in some sort of popular general education web sites "for dummies", but not to be praised as a good scientific article. This "science" obviously can be done by any student or amateur linguist. But the guy is very proud of it, he boasted that somebody even reviewed it and gave praised responses.
Thank you for your answers anyway, it appeared to be a very interesting borderless theme.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:50, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
OK, so it's lightweight, largely trivial fluff (or worse, "everybody-knows-that"-type "commonsensical" prejudice) that isn't necessarily all wrong or even "not even wrong", but simply of a low standard and little value – even as popular science: Well-written and well-researched popular science, in fact, is extremely difficult to achieve, and hence rare and valuable (in fact, this is exactly what Wikipedia aspires to deliver, after all).
A German expression that comes to mind is Dünnbrettbohrer – not a dimwit as the translation "intellectual lightweight" I've encountered could be taken to imply, but somebody who takes the path of least resistance (not necessarily stupid, but intellectually lazy). And in your case, appears to be seriously delusional about it, and infuriatingly, even successful with this strategy – as so often, regrettably. Of course, that's what you get when specialised expertise becomes rarer and rarer and even general education declines. People's expectations and standards of quality decrease, as they are not even aware that far superior, deeper and more solidly founded work exists, and they fail to realise that serious contributions to any field of science (including popularisation of science) require damn hard work. Anything that has value requires hard work, of course. (Gee, isn't that obvious?)
Anyway, a similarity with the pseudoscientific method does exist here, don't you think? That's also what Atkinson's stuff reminds me of. Very much borderline. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:16, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you again for the answers. As always here, a quite simple question may lead to a very interesting discussion.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Postmodernism? -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:33, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm not an expert in such abstract theories but it seems "no" in the case I mentioned above. Florian explained this situation quite good.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Scientifical? (talk) 14:54, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

Request for a quote in arabic script[edit]

A long time ago I read somewhere that the Quran states that each human is a universe. It is a beautiful idea. May I ask that someone shows what this quote looks like in arabic? Alternatively, if what I read long ago is not correct, please debunk the idea. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 10:24, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Have no idea about the Qur'an, but in quasi-western mysticism there are the concepts of Macrocosm and microcosm or "As above, so below"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 10:54, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you AnonMoos. I am aware of these. I am just looking for a hopefully pretty rendering in arabic script for a facebook thread. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 10:59, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
It's a bit difficult to look for this since there isn't really a good Qur'an concordance in English (at least not online). You can search, but searching for "universe" doesn't give any results for anything like that. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't remember any such quote from reading the Quran, and indeed to me it doesn't seem like the kind of statement the Quran would make. However, it may well have escaped my memory. The best way to verify this I think would be to find a knowledgeable Muslim. There are quite a few that have memorized the entire Quran (though maybe not here on Wikipedia). - Lindert (talk) 11:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I was sort of hoping that there was a knowledgeable, arab-speaking Muslim here on Wikipedia. :) I know of none where I am. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 15:28, 27 July 2014 (UTC) I have read an english version of the book, and I do not either remember it from there. It was in some other context that I read about it, much later. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 15:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't read Arabic, so I just read a translation of the Quran too. Anyway, similar thoughts are apparently present in Sufism, e.g. the Persian poet Attar of Nishapur wrote that "the heart is the dwelling place of that which is the essence of the Universe" (source), and a Sufi saying states that "the universe is a big man, and man is a little universe" (source, includes Arabic). - Lindert (talk) 16:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
"man is a little universe" is close enough! and with a script to boot! And sourced :) Who needs the Quran. It was almost boring as the telephone catalogue anyway. Lots of repetitions too. Thank you Lindert! This will do nicely :) Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 18:14, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Ali al-Ridha apparently says in Al-Risalah al-Dhahabiah: "Do you think that you are a small body, while the greatest world has folded itself in you?" but I've never seen the Arabic; the Farsi wikipedia doesn't have much of an article on it, and the Arabic wikipedia nothing at all. Belle (talk) 15:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
This was totally new to me. Thank you, Belle. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 07:40, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Are there languages talking about "saurs"?[edit]

In German, it's rather usual to use the term Saurier ("saur") as collective term for extinct, usually giant reptiles like dinosaurs, ichtyosaurs, pterosaurs etc. The borders of the term are not clearly defined, it might also include early amphibians. Is such a term also usual in other languages? --KnightMove (talk) 11:58, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

In the original Greek, Σαυρα or Σαυρος means "lizard"... AnonMoos (talk) 12:17, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
French has "les sauriens" (or "Sauria"), Italian has "i Sauri" (or "Sauria"), and Spanish has "los saurios" (or "Sauria"). ---Sluzzelin talk 12:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
The French link is: "les sauriens" (the one given by Sluzzelin refers to Saura a Norwegian village, a typo...). But, in French "les sauriens" is a suborder (which is a subject of controversy) that contains lizards, not dinosaurs. However some people use the phrase "grands sauriens" to refer to what the OP call "giant reptiles". The phrase is not used by scientists nowdays. A Google search gives a lot of references to Étienne Geoffroy Saint-Hilaire who wrote Recherches sur de grands sauriens trouvés à l'état fossile vers les confins maritimes de la basse normandie, attribués d'abord au crocodile, puis déterminés sous les noms de téléosaurus et sténéosaurus. — AldoSyrt (talk) 17:29, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Saurian μηδείς (talk) 18:03, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

Pronunciation of Polish surname[edit]

Does anyone here know how to pronounce the Polish (I assume) surname "Sowiak"? It was a family name way back, but as my mother was deaf I've never known how it was pronounced. Thanks! --NellieBly (talk) 23:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Polish pronunciation: [ˈsɔvʲak], close to SOV-yahk. It must mean "a male owl".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I bow to Luboslov in all things Slavic and his answer is most likely the correct one, but I'm also wondering if that is indeed a Polish name or an Anglicization of a Polish name? Could it be an Anglicization of Żywiec (in which case the Polish pronunciation would be something like [ˈʐɨvjɛt͡s]).--William Thweatt TalkContribs 00:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I know of a singer named Oksana Sowiak, and there appears to be no anglicisation involved in her name. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 02:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I am not an expert of Polish surnames, but it's 100% Polish [17][18] [19]. It looks very rare though. I'm sure, they are all relatives, and Nelly can find them in Poland. If I were of Polish origin I'd also learn the language of my Polish ancestors, languages are always interesting. The question above is of 101 level. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks everyone, and especially Luboslov for his expert advice. Interestingly enough, it looks as if there are no Sowiaks left in the area my grandmother was from. Given the circumstances that's not surprising, but I didn't know how rare the name was. As for Anglicization...she immigrated at Quebec City, so I'm not sure if that was an issue. Thanks again. --NellieBly (talk) 12:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I thought it might be Jewish. Then they rather came from Ukraine. Сов’як/Soviak is quite wide-spread surname there. Pronounced: [sɔvˈjak] (like above but the stress is on the last syllable).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:39, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you again! I have no idea whether they spoke Ukrainian or Polish or Yiddish or whatever - that part of Poland had Poles, Ukrainians, Romanians, Hungarians, and Russians living in it in 1925. --NellieBly (talk) 03:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
What's that part if it is not a secret?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 12:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
See [20] for a geographic distribution of people with this surname in Poland. — Kpalion(talk) 15:09, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Based out of?[edit]

Why are so many bands, musicians, record companies and other popular music industry entities "based out of" some or other place? When did being "from" or "based in" become unfashionable in the music industry? Is there a reason why musical types prefer to be "out of" a place rather than "in" or "from" it? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

"Get Up Offa That Thing" (and dance til you feel better...) (?) Martinevans123 (talk) 08:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Pop culture is about many things, not least an instant adherence to "cool" new expressions which almost immediately become cliches. One apparently demonstrates one's independence from parental/adult authority by becoming a slave to one's perceived peers. Some presenter once thought of encouraging an audience to "Give it up for ..." some singer, so others now follow suit. The whole pop world is saying "<someone> be like <something>". People regularly "hit up" other people. Thousands of other examples. None of these make any sense, naturally, but that's probably part of their appeal. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 09:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Yo, Jacko. Sick, rad and wicked, dude. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
See also wikt:Talk:based. I'm reminded of the bastardisation of the already slightly cringe-inducing (to me at least) idiom centered around (see wikt:center#Usage notes) into based around. Brrr. Fellow grammar-nazis™ have also picked (up) on both. I can already feel the metaphorical rash blooming. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • There's no evidence for this premise. The matter seems to be regional variation along the lines of "it looks to be" or "different to" and not a matter of the music industry per se. μηδείς (talk) 17:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
For "regional variation" can we substitute "US Eng"? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
No, because as far as I can tell, "based out of" seems to be from California and "looks to be" is quite typical of the Midwest. "Based in" is typical of the Northeast (maybe that's changing).
    • Yes I know the plural of anecdote is not data, but I noticed this peculiar (to me) phrase while reviewing hundreds of AFC submissions over many months and a substantial proportion of submissions about a musical entity (singer, band, album, etc.) use the "based out of" phrasing. I almost never see it in any other context (non-music-related topics). The evidence exists right here on WP - if someone has the tools to do a search for the phrase correlated to article topic then hard data can be obtained that will either confirm or refute my impression. I suspect though that many such instances might not survive for long in mainspace as "grammar Nazis" such as myself are compelled by our inner impulses to get rid of it. At AFC the vast majority of musical-topic drafts fail WP:NMUSIC so they never reach mainspace at all. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Bands, sports teams and other performers who tour begin and end somewhere. It's their base, like a beehive is a bee's base. They're "from" all over the place, depending where you meet them. But when they're done, they return home.
Touring acts branch out, often worldwide, and have roots in their (fan)base, who they depended on for support in the early stages. Many other jobs are far more contained to one or a few places. There's no real difference between the base and where they are, or if there is, you can say that person got here from wherever. Not as straightforward and linear with bands. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:08, July 29, 2014 (UTC)

Irish translation help needed[edit]

A friend asked me to translate the James Joyce quote "When I die Dublin will be written in my heart" into Irish, it is intended to be a tattoo so I'm looking for someone better at Irish grammar than me to help out before I'm responsible for an indelible grammatical/ spelling error. Thanks. Biggs Pliff (talk) 11:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

This isn't a reference to a tattoo or to be taken literally in any way. It is a common idiom, for example "When I die, I think that "Haiti" is going to be written on my heart." Franklin D. Roosevelt, which means his heart "belongs" there..--Shantavira|feed me 13:11, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't think either Biggs Pliff or FDR were actually contemplating open-heart surgery. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Google Translate suggests "Nuair a fhaighim bás, beidh Baile Átha Cliath a bheith scríofa i mo chroí." That looks reasonably good? But a bit more of a mouthful than "Is breá liom Mhamaí"? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Google Translate is not a reliable source for grammatically accurate translations. Sometimes it screws up vocabulary too. There is no amount you could pay me to have an unedited Google Translate result tattooed on me. AlexTiefling (talk) 13:59, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Could I interest you in a "Bloody Mary Skull and Crossbones"? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The first usage I'm familiar with is Mary I of England, ie. Bloody Mary, who said, "When I am dead and opened, you shall find 'Calais' lying in my heart". I suspect Joyce was echoing her - remember that Mary lost Calais. --NellieBly (talk) 13:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I think a "cauli lying in her heart" was the least of her worries, compared with the ovarian cysts and uterine cancer. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Actually, we have no idea what she died of. We can be fairly sure that the mid-20th century "phantom pregnancy" diagnosis is wrong, but that's as far as we can go. There are dozens of possibilities. --NellieBly (talk) 03:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Bet she has some awesome tats, though. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:42, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:CHINESECHARACTERTATTOO, folks.--Shirt58 (talk) 06:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
  • You might try contacting User:Evertype who is the linguist Michael Everson and who has done some published translation, at least of Old Irish. Looking at his user contribs he hasn't edited since June, so emailing him through his user page might be an option.
  • I was going to suggest User:MacTire02, who seems to be still active. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I know enough Irish to know that Google Translate's result given above is astonishingly close to being right as a literal translation: just remove the "a bheith" and you have the literal Irish translation: "Nuair a fhaighim bás, beidh Baile Átha Cliath scríofa i mo chroí." However, I cannot vouch for the idiomaticity of that translation. It may well (and probably does) sound extremely "translated out of English". For a tattoo, I'd recommend either keeping it in English (it is a quote from James Joyce, after all, who wrote in a close approximation of English), or else getting a picture of a heart with the words Baile Átha Cliath written on it, or better yet, Baile Áṫa Cliaṫ in Gaelic type. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd also warn that if you get a tattoo in a foreign script that you make sure the "artist" is highly competent and aware of your concern the script be accurate--have him draw it out for you in his own hand before he starts the work. Before she passed away my sister suggested I get a coral snake as a tattoo since I told her I wanted an animal. I got a field guide, I drew the snake by hand, slithering in a sinusoid motion. I carefully drew the body scales curving as they normally would following the curving of the body. Luckily the idiot started with the tail, because about 1/4 of the way done I noticed he was just drawing the scales in straight lines as if they weren't even attached to the body. I shudder to think what it would have looked like once he got to the head with its specific scale pattern. If we don't have an article bad tattoo we should. μηδείς (talk) 18:29, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

What's the difference between "godparent", "adoptive parent", and "foster parent"?[edit]

What's the difference between the three? What does it mean to be a "fairy godmother" and not a "fairy adoptive mother" or "fairy foster mother"? (talk) 03:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

See Adoption, Fostering and Godparent. Fostering is a temporary arrangement, entered into for instance if a parent is unable to take care of the child. Adoption is (supposed to be) a more permanent situation, where the adopters become the "legal" parents. A god parent doesn't assume total responsibility for the child, but becomes a "sponsor", originally specifically for the baptism, but these days more generally, giving support to the parents and child. Rojomoke (talk) 03:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The only place you'll find a "fairy godmother" is, fittingly, in a fairy tale. And I don't think you'll find any significant usage of "fairy adoptive mother" or "fairy foster mother". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:11, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Within 6 months in 1984-85, I went from step-father to adoptive father to biological father. Later, I became a fairy. :) -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 04:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Since you brought that up, and at the risk of this subject mushrooming, I do wonder - at a same-sex wedding, do they give each other a fairy ring? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
And then shove fairy cake in each other's faces ? StuRat (talk) 05:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I heard that if the parents die, the godparent is supposed to take care of the orphaned kids.-- (talk) 07:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Godparent says that part of the role is "to take care of the child should anything happen to the parents." HiLo48 (talk) 08:17, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Hence my question. My question includes a subquestion: does being a godparent mean being an adoptive parent/foster parent? (talk) 11:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The role of godparent is to ensure that the children are brought up "correctly" in the church (so basically if your parents aren't that keen on religion your godparents step in to ensure that you are...).
Traditionally, it wouldn't be uncommon for both parents to die from random diseases, and then for the children to be left in the care of either other family members, or the church. Remember the church was traditionally the centre of social welfare, so the rich landowners would be expected to pay money for the upkeep of the poor. Godparents would often therefore be family members, or substitute family members if you didn't have many real family members. They would be expected to help bring up the children if they were orphaned, and might therefore go onto adopt. However, it's not a requirement; adults can usually work something out. Barney the barney barney (talk) 11:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Anyone know Arabic?[edit]

I've been seeing this anti-Islam video a lot on social media:

Do the subtitles represent an accurate translation of what this imam is saying? Or did some joker add the subtitles to make Islam look bad?

And if the subtitles are accurate, is this man quite serious? Or is he some sort of standup comedian or actor?-- (talk) 07:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC) is a legit organization, so much can be said. Do you grant this much benefit of the doubt to all groups?Asmrulz (talk) 17:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The translation is true to what the Sheikh says, and he is not joking. There are many such promises for male believers in Islamic traditions. Omidinist (talk) 18:02, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
For reference on Wikipedia, see also Houri, including the subsection on 72 virgins. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
We also have an article on "Middle East Media Research Institute" (MEMRI). Gabbe (talk) 02:29, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

July 30[edit]

Anyone read Dutch?[edit]

Can anyone confirm the reliable-ness of the source here? Thanks, Dismas|(talk) 01:04, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

fwiw In the Dutch article it says "born as Priscilla Hendrikse". SlightSmile 01:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC) is the website of Nederlandse Omroep Stichting, a public broadcaster in the Netherlands. As such, I would say the source is sufficiently reliable for the claim it makes. Gabbe (talk) 02:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, both. Dismas|(talk) 02:55, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Thechnically, the Dutch source doesn't say that she was "born as Priscilla Hendrikse", but rather that her "real name" is Priscilla Hendrikse, and her stage name is Bobbi Eden. Maybe not a big difference, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. - Lindert (talk) 07:59, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Dismas|(talk) 08:11, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


July 24[edit]

TV show from the 80s/early 90s[edit]

Hi everybody,

i remember a show where a ghost (probably a deceased high school student from the 60s) helped a not very popular high school student in 80s/early 90s to master his life... The ghost showed him how to paint cars, play arcade games and date girls... Basically, that's all i remember. Can anyone tell me the name of the show? Thanks alot, with greetings from Austria -- (talk) 16:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Teen Angel perhaps? --McDoobAU93 16:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Extract from a novel[edit]

Could somebody post the last paragraph of Book 2, Chapter VI of And The Ass Saw The Angel (Nick Cave)? My eBook copy stops at "It was of Beth aged...". I'm fairly sure that this counts as "fair use" as we're not reproducing a significant part of the work. Thanks. Incidentally, should I complain to Amazon about the missing text? Tevildo (talk) 23:54, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

""Beth" hung opposite the spiralling afflatus of "The Martyrdom" in the Ukulite tabernacle, on the north wall. It was despised by some, lauded by others. Others it simply baffled. Sardus Swift made the decision to have it hung in the tabernacle. It was of Beth aged six." --Viennese Waltz 08:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Just one word? OK, I'll let them off. :) Thanks for your help. Tevildo (talk) 08:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

July 25[edit]

REM's (Don't_Go_Back_To)_Rockville[edit]

According to your article, REM's (Don't_Go_Back_To)_Rockville was originally performed in a punk/thrash style, and later recorded in its more familiar country style. Where can I hear the former? Llamabr (talk) 15:26, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

You would have to look for live bootlegs of the early REM. I don't think any early live recordings of the song have been officially released. --Viennese Waltz 15:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I did some looking for the OP on YouTube, and the oldest recording I can find is from a live show at the Raleigh Underground in 1982, which would have been two years before the song made it on an album, and it was pretty much the same country/jangle pop hybrid you find on Reckoning. If there is an earlier punk/thrash version, it predates 1982. --Jayron32 03:14, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
[21] claims to be from 1980. Definitely not "thrash" but seems a bit faster than the album version. -- (talk) 05:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

July 26[edit]

dario costello[edit]

Costello was a baroque composer of music for small ensembles. I'm looking for CD titles recordings of his music for flute and bassoon only97.123.251.17 (talk) 03:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC).

His name is actually Dario Castello and you can find a list of his extant compositions here. --Jayron32 03:57, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


hey i'm was trying to download a Pokemon ROM of Pokemon white but i keep getting adobe can not read Pokemon white.ndes any help to get my computer ( windows 7 ) to allow and run the ROMS

-- thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrestlinglord (talkcontribs) 17:10, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Your system is already "allowed" to run ROMs. Adobe doesn't open .nds files or any other ROM file. You're trying to open a rom with a program that is not an emulator. Square peg, round hole. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

New topic: Ainsworth Gaming Technology[edit]

Not sure how to add a topic, so thought I'd pass along. There is another slow machine manufacturer that is not included in Wikipedia. They are "Ainsworth Gaming Technology" located here — Preceding unsigned comment added by MasonVegas (talkcontribs) 14:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

This question would be more appropriate for the Help Desk (WP:HD). See WP:YFA for instructions on creating an article. For an article to be accepted, the subject must be notable (see WP:N and WP:CORP), and its notability must be established with references to reliable sources (WP:RS). Note also that, if you're associated with Ainsworth Gaming Technology in any way, you shouldn't create the article yourself - see WP:COI. Tevildo (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

List of video games never imported to the USA?[edit]

Is there a list of NTSC-J region video games never imported to the US? I'd like to research survival horror and horror games. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:8051:4D60:918B:EBE3:685C:C84C (talk) 23:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The closest we have is:  List of Japan-exclusive video games (talk) 01:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Do foreign movies always have an North American/British distributor?[edit]

And do all English/Scottish movies have a North American distributor? They seem to use paramount alot...... Venustar84 (talk)

Well, define "foreign"... Also, many movies made outside of North America or the British Isles never get distributed to theatres there. So, no, not every move has a North American or British distributor. --Jayron32 01:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Some films and TV shows have distribution in multiple markets from their inception, often because they're co-created or co-financed by multinational media organisations. The rights to some others get bought before they're finished, because of industry connections and word of mouth. But the regional rights for lots of others are traded at film festivals like Cannes and Sundance, or at conferences like MIPTV or Mipcom. People with films and TV shows to sell will exhibit them there, and prospective buyers (national and regional distributors, and TV networks) will decide what to buy. Regional distributors (whose business depends on their understanding the local tastes and mores of their target market) will choose what they think will work; and some things that are successful in one market will be unappealing (and thus sell cheaply, or not at all) in others. A case in point is the curious case of Breaking Bad in the UK - its first two seasons were shown on Channel Five (where it went mostly unnoticed) and after that no-one in the UK showed it at all (ref). -- Finlay McWalterTalk 12:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

List of movie directors (active today) who hate CGI[edit]

Which famous directors who are still making movies have said that they hate CGI and only use traditional special effects like puppets, models, matte painting, camera tricks, etc? I know Terence Malick didn't use CGI for his cosmic sequences in "Tree of Life" and I believe Quentin Tarantino has also forsworn CGI, which is interesting because his good friend and collaborator Robert Rodriguez seems to use nothing but CGI.-- (talk) 05:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Not an answer, but I bet what those directors really mean is they won't use CGI at it's current technology level. Presumably, at some point in the future, it will progress to the point where the end result will be indistinguishable from any other method. The same is true in many other fields, like digital photography versus film and digital audio versus vinyl. StuRat (talk) 17:29, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
You've hit upon the problem. CGI is nothing more than high-tech cartooning, and is blatantly obvious on the screen. In fact, the average "action film" looks like a video game, not like anything real. Which is presumably the point - gamers are used to those types of graphics. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:40, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I watched the whole of Life of Pi without realizing that the animals were CGI. I could not understand how they filmed those scenes in the boat. --Viennese Waltz 12:30, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm a gamer (but not a famous director), and I find movies entirely shown in either blue or yellow "lighting" almost unwatchable. Most games don't do that, and I can't comprehend why most movies started thinking it was a good idea. Gotten to the point where I'll think "Hey, that looks decent!' simply because it's not completely blue and yellow. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:13, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
I think the reason for the darkness is to hide certain details, whether it's CGI or traditional techniques. There's a reason late-70s films like Star Wars and Superman had so many night or black sky scenes: It was to hide wires. On the other hand, CGI is "cheating". There's a scene in Superman where he flies away from Lois' balcony and then Clark Kent shows up at her door seconds later. Easily done with CGI. But how did they do that? Well, with good ol' fashioned rear projection. Fake, but looked real. CGI pretty much always looks fake. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
OK now we know which Wikipedia editors hate CGI. Peter Jackson uses plenty of CGI but says he prefers practical effects and only uses CGI when nothing else could work. (Contrast George Lucas who used it for almost everything, even stuff that would've been easy to film practically.) The Lord of the Rings movies did several new types of camera tricks that hadn't been done before (moving forced perspective comes to mind).
Werner Herzog has ranted against CGI for a long time, and not (as Stu says) just because it isn't good enough yet. He says it violates his idea of what cinema should be- capturing and illuminating imagery from the real world. CGI betrays the trust between the viewer and the director that what is seen on screen is something that actually happened when they were filming. He talks about this often when discussing Fitzcarraldo, in which he pulled a full-sized steam ship over a mountain, which could've easily been done with miniatures. I'm sure you could find lots and lots of "auteur"-type filmmakers who have this attitude. They would be against basically all "special" visual effects, not just CGI. Staecker (talk) 12:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Doing everything with life-sized real objects isn't always possible. First, you need the kind of budget they had in Cleopatra, which nearly bankrupted the studio despite being the highest grossing film of the year. Then you need items where a full-sized model is possible. How could you do the Death Star in Star Wars ?
I think the real issue is good versus bad special effects, not practical versus CGI. We've all seen non-CGI special effects that were laughable, like a battleship on fire that looks like a bathtub toy filled with flaming lighter fluid, or a monster suit with a clearly visible zipper, or the bad claymation of a Sinbad film. Meanwhile, other films feature practical effects that are astounding, like the seamless opening of the spaceship in The Day the Earth Stood Still. Well, the same differences occur in CGI, and we will see more good CGI as the technology progresses, but no doubt some rank amateurs will continue to make crappy CGI pics, too.
There is another issue with cutting edge visuals, though, whether practical or CGI. The directors sometimes rely on those effects to sell their film, and don't bother with silly things like a plot or dialog. StuRat (talk) 12:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
This whole forum discussion raises an interesting question that I'm surprised nobody's asked: Which famous directors who are still making movies have said that they hate CGI and only use traditional special effects like puppets, models, matte painting, camera tricks, etc? Staecker (talk) 12:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Can someone point to or explain why Peter Jackson's LotR movies look so terribly washed out, never fully saturated in RGB at the same time, while other movies like the Narnia CGI ones are brilliantly colored? As for hating CGI, what I can't stand is physically impossible things that jar the eye, like a person jumping off a building then falling to the ground faster than the acceleration of gravity (I think Cat Woman did this) or the mummy in The Mummy opening his jaw so wide his skin would tear and his bones would crumble. μηδείς (talk) 17:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Forfeiting games based on misrepresentations?[edit]

I recently watched She's the Man where Viola was allowed to continue playing in her game even after she disclosed that she was not her brother Sebastian (who she had been pretending to be). Leaving aside the issue of gender, I began wondering: in real life, if such a situation were to occur, would the fact that the player misrepresented their identity (e.g. a person whose real name is John Doe playing under an alias, Richard Roe) be sufficient grounds to forfeit the game(s) that the player had participated in? (talk) 06:05, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

This will depend on the rules of the game in question. Richard "Jim" Rathmann and his brother James "Dick" Rathmann come immediately to mind, and there may be other examples, but, in general, ringers are banned in any sporting competition. There's a difference, of course, between pretending to be somebody else and competing under a professional name which isn't the one on your birth certificate. Tevildo (talk) 07:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
And not just the rules of the game itself but the rules of the organization under which the game is being held. As an example, in major league baseball, you have to be under contract, and the contract has to have been approved by MLB. Sometimes players will fudge the facts. Tony Oliva kind of assumed the identity of his younger brother. But he was a productive enough player that fibbing about his identity was ultimately no big deal. The bottom line to the OP's question would have to be whether the player in question was technically eligible to play in the game under their true identity. If not, there is indeed a risk of forfeiture. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:29, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The NHL has a rule specifically addressing player eligibility. Any goal scored when the player is on the ice is void, but only if people notice a the next stoppage of play after the goal is scored. Mingmingla (talk) 17:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I read that rule as referring to the same stoppage in play caused by the goal being scored. -- (talk) 21:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
You're right. That's what I meant to say given that a goal is a stoppage. Mingmingla (talk) 23:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Kind of like an appeal play that requires defensive vigilance, or batting out of order. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
These issues are not limited to professional sports. The American Contract Bridge League sets out these conditions (PDF, 5 pages) for its tournaments. Impersonation is not specifically addressed, but much of the first page addresses eligibility criteria based on the person's tournament history, and it says that the director in charge of an event has authority to "resolve any issue not specifically covered". It's reasonable to assume that if a player was found to be using a false identity, they would be treated as ineligible and any masterpoints they won would be forfeited. -- (talk) 21:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
See the story behind Danny Almonte at the 2001 Little League World Series, a rather sordid tale about a child who was used by adults who should have known better, and the earlier 1992 Little League World Series, whereby another team was disqualified due to rampant misrepresentation about the participants. --Jayron32 02:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind song: la, la, la la la la la[edit]

Does anybody know if the "la, la, la la la la la la" vocalizations in Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind has been used in a Studio Ghibli film? I just watched the film for the first time today, yet that sounded very familiar... I'm half-remembering it being used by spirits in a later film... maybe Mononoke Hime... but I can't quite remember. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm very interested in a response for this question. I honestly don't know the answer tbh but it sounds more like a melody which would be played on a trumpet, so Laputa is probably more likely than Mononoke (also the fact that the former came right after Nausicaa)... I've been doing some digging and it seems like the main theme, the "Requiem", as Hisaishi called it, was based off of a Sarabande by Georg Friedrich Handel, but that's only the chord structure from what I can remember of the piece, perhaps that's where you might have remembered it? idek I'm sorry i can't quite remember either eeuughh ~Helicopter Llama~ 16:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't think it's Laputa, as I haven't seen that film yet. The vocalizations and rhythm sounded so familiar (my wife noticed it too), but... from where? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
HelicopterLlama, idek = "I don't even know", perhaps? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 20:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Wujek Fido the Flying Dog -- Polish TV show[edit]

I'm trying to identify a children's cartoon series about a flying dog, possibly named Wujek Fido (Uncle Fido), which was on Polish television 30 years or so ago. It long predated the German Vipo: Adventures of the Flying Dog, and unlike Vipo who flaps his large ears like a bird, Wujek Fido spun his ears like propellers. (This wasn't Muttley who was occasionally shown flying by spinning his tail like a propeller.) -- ToE 15:22, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Tracking shot[edit]

i saw gravity (film) the other day and was rather impressed by the tracking shot at the beginning, and did some research and found that there is a film called Russian Ark which is literally one shot. Are there other artsy-style movies like this out there and is there a list of them? thank~Helicopter Llama~ 16:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)s

The most famous example is Hitchcock's Rope (film).  We have a related article that might be of interest:  Long take.   — (talk) 17:19, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Not mentioned in that article is The Player, which opens with a long take of almost 8 minutes during which the characters talk about long takes in past movies. -- (talk) 20:50, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Russian Ark is an audacious and unprecedented film. The DVD commentary mentions that they were more worried about the camera lens fogging as they went outdoors then they were about any mistakes by the actors. The opening sequence of Touch of Evil has an extraordinary tracking shot. MarnetteD|Talk 17:26, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Just to point out that this discussion is about long takes; a tracking shot is quite different. The long take article also mentions that "Timecode, PVC-1 and La casa muda are filmed in one single take." There is an impressive long take in The Number 23, but it is obvious that CGI must have been used because the camera apparently goes in and out of numerous windows, so I'm guessing that doesn't count.--Shantavira|feed me 07:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, with CGI and digital compositing, the relationship between a take and a shot - which was mostly 1:1, bar some clever fades and wipes (e.g. Citizen Kane, Serenity) - is gone. With a virtual camera, which can perform supernatural feats of motion and has complete flexibility to change its optical characteristics, one could "film" a whole movie (with the usual scene structure) and have the camera writhe around to completely remove all the "cuts". That seems to be exactly what the director of the forthcoming Birdman film will be doing. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 08:07, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
I mention this because the opening "shot" of Gravity is a CGI sequence with fragments of human performance composited into it. In the final film it's a single "shot", because there aren't any "camera" jumps ("cuts"). But it wasn't really shot with a camera, and film wasn't cut with flatbed editor. So it's a "shot" in the artistic sense, but not in the production sense. -- Finlay McWalterTalk 08:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

July 30[edit]


I was reading Wikipedia's description of Timecode (very difficult to watch, by the way) and it says "A homage to this film can be heard during another of Mike Figgis's films, Hotel." Can it really be said to be a homage if it's by the same director? "Reference" perhaps? (Maybe this should really by on the language desk, but it's about entertainment.)--Shantavira|feed me 12:01, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it depends on whether you call it "HOM-ij", or "om-AHJ" as popculturalists are, strangely, wont to do. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 19:23, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Given the "A", it's apparently "HOM-ij". Not sure if that kind of thing really qualifies as a/an "homage" or merely as an "inside joke". George Lucas is famous for doing that: R2-D2 and C-3PO appearing as hieroglyphs in Raiders of the Lost Ark; several ET's appearing in the corner of the Galactic parliament in Star Wars III or one of those; and repeated references to or variations on "THX-1138". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:32, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

vengaboys "2 Brazil" music video models[edit]

Is there a website where it shows who are the models for the Vengaboys music videos "2 Brazil"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:15, 30 July 2014 (UTC)


July 25[edit]

Search engine question. Ignore vs. exclude[edit]

July 26[edit]

Any disproof to the conspiracy theory that companies could make products last forever but don't feel like it[edit]

People often say that companies "could" make products that last forever (this is usually said of tires, light bulbs or razor blades, etc.) but they just don't wanna. They intentionally make products that will wear out so that people will have to buy replacements. This seems like an oversimplification to me, and the laws of supply and demand would seem to suggest that if there were a demand for a tire that lasted forever and someone could produce it, that the market would dictate a price that was satisfactory to both the consumer and the producer. However, are there any articles or studies I could read that seek to disprove this conspiracy theory? A similar conspiracy theory, by the way, is that doctors and pharmaceutical companies WANT us to be sick so we can keep using their products and services.--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 06:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

It's not really a conspiracy theory; it's a long established and well documented business practice known as planned obsolescence. You might find that article, and the links therein, helpful.--Shantavira|feed me 06:30, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Only some of those examples apply. I'm not talking about Apple releasing new operating systems and new models, but I am talking about stuff that physically breaks or wears out due to regular use. In general, wouldn't a company have to have the market cornered, or at least be colluding with all its competitors in order for this strategy to work?. Otherwise a competitor who wasn't on board with the conspiracy could just make a more durable product and siphon away all the customers who were frustrated with the stuff that breaks easily.--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 06:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Stuff that wears out in time for you to buy a new one has a "lifespan limiting design". The pill companies don't care if people are sick, so long as they think they are. Not enough shoppers could afford perfect tires on their wages. It's the same reason they don't buy jets. There's a demand, only so far as wanting it. Things have to be affordable to sell. Affordable stuff for poorer people is naturally cheap. If companies had to make great stuff at great cost for "the 99%", but not sell it to most of them, they'd fold and nobody would have anything. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:04, July 26, 2014 (UTC)
Like, for example, you don't see "planned obsolescence" in the world of, say, shoes or coats or something. I can pay hundreds of dollars for a pair of expertly made leather shoes that I *know* will last 10-15 years or I can pay a fraction of that price for shoes made out of some kind of synthetic crap that won't last a year. In this case, the consumer has a choice, and there isn't just one kind of shoe available that wears out much sooner than one would prefer. So maybe planned obsolescence works well only in certain industries? What defines these industries?--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 06:47, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
It reminds me of the saying "two can keep a secret if one of them is dead". Too many people would have to be in the know for it not to leak out eventually. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:54, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
There is a contra-example that came to mind —but that mind-partition seems to have been reformatted. Anyway, ... I believe there is a common household product that is virtually indestructible, and everybody that wanted it already had it (and they were handed down within families, etc.), so that eventually there was no need to produce them anymore; therefore, the product was discontinued and/or the company went out of business. I thought it was Corelle, but apparently not. Farberware? —No.  Uhmmm... Corningware? Maybe; the article mentions that it was discontinued in the '90s, the brand was sold, and reintroduced in 2001. ~: (talk) 07:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
LOL, your description also made me think of Le Creuset, but I'm sure that company still does a very brisk business. Their cast iron cookware is fabulously expensive, prettily designed and lasts forever. But I think the way they stay in business by continually coming out with novel shapes and colors. People probably try to collect them or something.--Jerk of Thrones (talk) 07:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I am informed that Parnell were a manufacturer of washing machines in the UK in the 1950s and 60s, and their machines lasted so well the company went bust because people just weren't replacing them: and it is far cheaper to keep existing customers than it is to get new ones.--TammyMoet (talk) 15:46, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
There are two problems here. First, people don't want to pay more than they need for an object of limited use. If I am baking a cake and need a half-oz of lemon extract and never expect to make this cake again, I am much more likely to buy the 1-0z bottle for $.99 than the "last forever" 1-gallon bottle for $2.50. Same applies for items that go in and out of style, and so forth.
The second problem is due to accidental breakage. Nothing really lasts for ever. In this case you need a reliable measurement of average lifetime (the bulb don't wear out, but they break when the lamp is knocked over. If you can demonstrate to and convince the consumer that the cost for average lifetime is low enough (and the difference in price not too extreme) you'll get willing customers. Even then, what do I do with my great-great grandfather's collection of wear-free horsehoes, and my neverbreak 13" B/W 4:3 analog TV with the neverfade mono speakers?
For refuations of the above and other economic fallcies, see where you can download the standard college text in free PDF format. μηδείς (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
No physical product could possibly, literally last forever - so it's always going to be some very long lifespan that we're talking about here.
A great example of manufacturers making very long lived products is light bulbs. Why are manufacturers moving over to LED bulbs that last so long that they can't adequately estimate their lifespan? They could refuse to make them and continue to make incandescants that fizzle out much sooner? Compact Disks have a longer life than old Vinyl disks because the latter are so easily damaged. Cars can be expected to routinely surpass 100,000 miles - but even 50 years ago, a car with that many miles on it was a rarity.
Other non-physical products can last forever software can (in principle) do that - except with technological progress, it becomes obsolete - and computers that can run it cease to exist.
In the end, it's about monopolies. If you have a monopoly on a product, you can indeed make a shoddy version of it that you know will have to be replaced often. However, if you have competition in the same market, then if your competitor's product lasts longer than yours, you could lose all of your sales. In those situations, the risk of saturating the market with immortal products is less than the risk of being undercut by a competitor - so increasing the life of your product makes sense.
SteveBaker (talk) 19:53, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Steve, haven't you read your own policy on answering questions? Obviously paraphrasing the person immediately before you is not forbidden by your encyclical, but aren't you at least supposed to give a reference? μηδείς (talk) 01:58, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
It only makes sense if buyers know that your product has a longer life expectancy. The Market for Lemons is probably the most relevant article. -- BenRG (talk) 23:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I have some familiarity with the history of incandescent light bulbs. There was published research from the 1880's onward showing that the longer a lightbulb was designed to last, the lower was the efficiency (or efficacy). There is a tradeoff: if a bulb provides lots of lumens (or candlepower in the older terms) at a given voltage, and you operate it at a lower voltage, it will last longer but provide less light per watt consumed (and with a more reddish hue). Drop the voltage 10% and you double the lifetime, increase the voltage 10% and you halve the lifetime, approximately. If you are obsessed with maximizing the lifetime of your incandescent bulbs, then buy 240 volt bulbs and they will provide a reddish glow at 120 volts for a v-e-r-y l-o-n-g time. But you will need more bulbs, consuming more power, to provide the same illumination. It is cheaper overall to operate the bulbs at a proper voltage, for a shorter lifetime, at higher efficacy, unless you get free electricity.Today, it is supposed to be cheaper overall to replace them with LEDs, but too often people report early failure of the extremely expensive LED bulbs. Edison (talk) 03:50, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
See durable goods. Many household durable goods, like furniture or toilets, could last several generations. Other items, like glasses (either drinking glasses of optical glasses) don't really wear out, but will tend to get broken, given enough time. Items without moving parts or electronics tend to last longer.
Also, another way to make it in the company's interest to make things durable is if they offer a long warranty period. Cars with a 10 year warranty tend to be well built, and Craftsman tools, which carry a lifetime warranty, are often well built, too. StuRat (talk) 04:10, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Books-A-Million (International shipping)[edit]

Does Books-A-Million ships internationally. I am looking for this book, Power Training for Sport : Plyometrics for Maximum Power Development by Tudor O. Bompa. Unfortunately, The new edition of this book is not available in except used one which I do not prefer. Please let me know. Thanks in advance.-- (talk) 07:08, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

It would help if you said where you were wanting it shipped to; everywhere is international to somewhere else. You appear to be based in Bangladesh. Books-a-Million, in their Shipping Info page seems to be US and Canada Only. ISBN 9780889626294 gives a list of online bookstores and libraries, with a quicklink to the book; I can only suggest that you try each of them. Amazon Germany seem to have it, I don't know where they ship to. CS Miller (talk) 11:23, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article about Plyometrics is free for you to read. (talk) 13:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Geography: Which Brampton, UK? A1 road (Great Britain)[edit]

A1 road (Great Britain) contains an error, it point to Brampton in Canada, as opposed to Brampton, England. I'd fix it, but there's multiple Bramptons, and I'm not sure which to link to. -- Zanimum (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Which section are you considering? If you're talking about this part "The planned A14 Ellington to Fen Ditton scheme would require a new junction at Brampton, north of which the A1 will be widened to a three-lane dual carriageway from Brampton to the Brampton Hut interchange. The new two-lane dual carriageway section of the A14 would run parallel with the A1 on this section.[32]" then it's the Brampton in Cambridgeshire. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:44, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
We have an article, Brampton Hut interchange, which is near Huntingdon. Apparently there used to be a wooden hotel building on stilts there, which was known locally "the Brampton Hut". This confirms Tammy's answer above, and the correct link is Brampton, Cambridgeshire, although our article says it's in Huntingdonshire (there's been some tinkering with county boundaries in recent decades). Alansplodge (talk) 16:24, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Note that the modern non-metropolitan district of Huntingdonshire is not identical with the historic county of the same name. Brampton is (currently) both in Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire, although this wasn't the case before 1 October 1984. Tevildo (talk) 17:01, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks - would it be possible to clarify the lead of the article to reflect that? Alansplodge (talk) 21:08, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Done. I've modified the text to read "Brampton is a village near Godmanchester south west of Huntingdon, in the Huntingdonshire non-metropolitan district of Cambridgeshire." Tevildo (talk) 21:20, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Splendid - thank you. Alansplodge (talk) 23:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Question for people that lived in the UK between (1950-1970)[edit]

This question is for anyone that has lived in the UK between 1950 to 1970. How often did you see a non-white person where you lived? In the area you lived, was there a lot of immigration ? How many immigrant kids did you go to school with? Thanks! YŶwechen (talk) 17:37, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

See Immigration to the United Kingdom since Irish independence and Foreign-born population of the United Kingdom for our relevant articles. This should (theoretically) be more reliable than the individual memories of the RD regulars. Tevildo (talk) 17:49, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, but I kindly request personal memories if possible, thank you. YŶwechen (talk) 18:07, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Then you're asking the wrong people in the wrong place. Questions here are supposed to be answered with reference to other Wikipedia article or to reliable sources. HiLo48 (talk) 19:21, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
I went to Hastings Grammar School from around 1955 to 1962 and I do not recall there being any non-white pupils at that time. Certainly none in my class. --rossb (talk) 22:07, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
  • As mentioned above, you should ask this at Yahoo Answers or some such website, and you should refer to people as who, not that, just as you would refer to a man as he, not it. μηδείς (talk) 01:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
    • If you're going to provide incorrect advice, please also provide suitable citations supporting it. There is nothing wrong with using that for a person. See Merriam-Webster here; scroll down the page to the 4th word "that", sense 1, and read the "Usage note" below. Or if you want a British dictionary, see the Macmillan here, sense 7. -- (talk) 05:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I grew up in the Black Country in that timescale, and there were plenty of BAME people where I lived - Smethwick, Langley Green, Sandwell, Oldbury, West Midlands. I'm part of a local heritage project and we think the first mixed race marriage was in the 1800s in Smethwick. The ones I grew up with obviously came across as part of the recruitment drive in the Commonwealth, as spearheaded by Enoch Powell. From memory I think my primary school class was about 40% indigenous white, 15% of Eastern European heritage, 20% Indian sub-continent, 15% Afro-Caribbean. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I grew up in rural North Wales, and I can exactly date the first time I saw a non-white person in the flesh, 3rd September 1969 when I started secondary school - there was one non-white kid in my school of over 600 (who happened to be in my class), his father was a doctor at a local hospital, and the family moved back to Mumbai the next summer. A bit later there was a (Hong Kong) Chinese family who ran the local take-away, but the area was certainly not a Mecca for immigration. Back then, in that part of the country, "immigrant" usually referred to people left behind by the Second World War - mostly families established by Polish ex-soldiers, or of German and Italian POWs who didn't go home after the war, or indeed English people. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 14:39, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I grew up in Leytonstone in East London. During my time at primary school in the 1960s, we only had one non-white child in our class of thirty. At secondary school - starting in 1970 - I think the proportion must have grown to approaching 10 percent; they were almost exclusively from either the West Indies or the Indian subcontinent. Alansplodge (talk) 22:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Here in Cumbria, I don't think I ever saw a "non-white" person, not even at school unless you count Persian as "non-white", until my second cousin married one and she brought him to live nearby. He was the object of some curiosity (I don't recall any animosity), and he turned out to be perfectly charming. Dbfirs 21:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Did that surprise you? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

SVG map of Europe with country labels[edit]

Hi. I'm looking for a SVG map of Europe with country labels in the language of English. Can you help? I found a map with this information in png , and an excellent svg map with German labels.,_administrative_divisions_-_de_-_colored.svg . Any ideas? matt me (talk) 22:52, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Does [22] work or is it too busy? --Jayron32 23:32, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Too busy, I think. I want to make a quiz like this matt me (talk) 11:10, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
If you don't want to install an SVG Editor, such as Inkscape, remember that SVGs are text files, so a standard text editor can be used to make small changes. In the German-language map, the country labels are towards the end of the file, starting at line 26800. CS Miller (talk) 10:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

July 27[edit]

Art style[edit]

I was re-watching my Looney Tunes DVD this evening and was struck by the different styles of background illustration they used. There's a style in particular I found striking, the one used for the exterior shots (and, to a lesser extent, the interior ones) in Deduce, You Say!. You can get a sense of it here. Limited pallet, but unusual colours, and a surprising amount of line detail. More atmospheric than most other examples of Chuck Jones's style, but he did do similar stuff in Transylvania 6-5000 and a few other places. Almost - but not quite - film noir. Is there a particular name for this style of illustration? Matt Deres (talk) 02:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks rather sloppy to me, in that the lines that should be parallel aren't drawn parallel and the perspective lines are a bit off. When I think sloppy, rather basic animation, and a limited color palette, I think The Pink Panther Show or anything by Seven Arts. StuRat (talk) 03:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
It's probably worth mentioning that the backgrounds in most Jones cartoons were designed (and usually executed) by Maurice Noble, not by Jones himself. Noble used a variety of styles, depending on the situations to be depicted, as can be seen in the various "scenes" of What's Opera, Doc?, for instance. As our article says, "The graphic look of his backgrounds could vary widely from film to film; he tried to make the backdrop fit the mood of the film." Deor (talk) 10:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I would associate that style particularly with UPA. According to our article, limited animation seems to be the technical term for it. Tevildo (talk) 12:10, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Chuck Jones's Warner Brothers cartoons weren't examples of limited animation (the term refers to the animation of the characters, not to the backgrounds). Occasionally, the design work, as in The Dover Boys, is somewhat suggestive of the UPA style, though. Deor (talk) 18:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

July 28[edit]

Looking for name of a type of store[edit]

For context, I'm from the US. There is a type of store that I don't know the name for. They tend to be somewhat small and have a strange and constantly changing mix of merchandise. They tend to carry things like low-end electronics, bikes, camping gear and cookware. They seem to sell whatever non-perishable items they can get a good deal on at the time. For example, I bought a Power Wheels car for my son that had clearly been a display model at a different store, and when they have a large stock of something it is often because the whole lot has damaged packaging. My local one has a furniture section at the back that I think is mainly returns from a local furniture store that aren't good enough to sell in their showroom.

Does anyone know the general term for this sort of store? Do we have an article on it? Katie R (talk) 18:12, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

We'd call them "pound shops" in the UK - this term redirects to Variety store, as does "five-and-dime", which I assume is the standard US term. See also Retail#Types of retail outlets. Tevildo (talk) 18:31, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I think that term has become obsolete in the US, as you can't buy much of anything for 5 or 10 cents anymore. We do have lots of dollar stores, though. In the news, Dollar Tree (which really is a dollar store in that everything is a dollar or less) just bought out Family Dollar (which was a fake dollar store, where things were multiples of a dollar). Both specialize in low priced odd lots. A large portion of the goods sold there are made in China, by companies that don't quite get how to sell in the US, such as not knowing English. For example, Dollar Tree had a universal remote for $1, as long as you didn't mind the MUTE button saying METE (a button to allow you to mete out justice to the person on the screen ?). :-) StuRat (talk) 20:29, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
They are close-out or "odd lot" stores -- including such ones as Big Lots and the like. For Back to the Future fans, this was the company which ended up with a hundred DeLorean DMC-12s. Collect (talk) 18:37, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
That sounds pretty close to what I'm thinking of - Big Lots is sort of the large-scale version of it. Big Lots has much larger stores and seems to have a more consistent inventory, but they clearly work in a similar way. The stores I'm thinking of seem to focus on the $20-$200 price range, unlike the stores that variety store seems to focus on. "Odd lot" store certainly seems like a good fit, but the links/categories in the Big Lots article make me think we don't have much on that sort of store. Katie R (talk) 18:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I used to work at a surplus store that seems to fit your description. (talk) 21:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Sounds like a liquidator to me. In my hometown there are few such shops called XS ("Excess") Cargo, Liquidation World, stuff like that. There's even a low-budget reality show. Mingmingla (talk) 23:49, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't have a name for them specifically but if pressed I'd probably go with surplus store. Although, in the US, that often conjures an images of a military surplus store. Dismas|(talk) 10:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Caterpillar found in Nuneaton Warwickshire that should belong in Florida[edit]

Can anyone advise what to do with a caterpillar that looks like a Xylophanes Tersa (large, 3 inches long hairless brown six black spots three either side of head, small white tail found in a back garden in Nuneaton Warwickshire 28/7/2014. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Science Desk would be the best place to ask. But, to clarify, are you trying to keep the Xylophanes tersa and want to know what to feed it and how to house it ? StuRat (talk) 20:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
...or, are you concerned that it might be an invasive species, and that you should report it somewhere?   — (talk) 21:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
The caterpillar you linked to is green, but you say you found a brown one, so it's probably something else. I would contact Warwickshire Wildlife Trust as they have a resident butterfly expert who can advise. --TammyMoet (talk) 21:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
It might just be a Hyles gallii (Bedstraw Hawk-Moth) larva which is similar to what you describe, the larva turns brownish before pupation which might explain the colour difference - and it has a very wide distribution. Richard Avery (talk) 07:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


Is there a specific name for the fetish often seen in Japanese Hentai of insects laying their eggs inside a human womans uterus and then her birthing the hatchings? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Oviposition fetish is the usual term - it's listed in Index of human sexuality articles, but the current article doesn't contain anything on the fetish (presumably due to lack of reliable sources). There may be something in the article history. Tevildo (talk) 23:08, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
For general reference: insects laying their eggs in another animal is very common in the animal world, see parasitoid. So, "parasitoid fetish" would also be a fairly descriptive term. On this topic, Darwin said "I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae" -- SemanticMantis (talk) 18:54, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

July 29[edit]

Laptop giving sustained electric shocks/vibrations[edit]

I recently moved to a new, basement apartment and noticed that whenever my aluminum-bodied laptop (non-macbook) is plugged int the AC outlet, I can feel electric vibrations whenever I gently slide my hand over the aluminum palmrest. Occasionally, I also feel sustained sharp electric shocks.

Looking online, it seems like this phenomenon happens when plugging the computer into a ungrounded outlet. However, the outlet in this basement is three-pronged and does appear to be grounded.

What could be causing this? Could it mean that the AC outlet in the wall is, in fact, NOT grounded properly?

Are there any long-term dangers to myself or my equipment?

Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 01:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

It's certainly possible. One of the outlets in my house had a disconnected ground wire - it was spotted during the survey we had done when we bought the place. It's somewhat dangerous for it to be disconnected...for appliances that are not faulty, it generally doesn't do anything - but, as you've discovered, if you have a short inside the metal case of an appliance, the earth connection protects you from a potentially lethal electric shock. So you should certainly get the laptop fixed - and have someone check out that outlet. There is a gizmo on sale at most DIY stores that you can plug into an electrical outlet that has a bunch of LED's on it to show whether the outlet is mis-wired and how. I checked through the entire house and found two more bad ones! I fixed them myself - it's not that difficult - but for chrissakes, make sure you turn off the power to the entire house before you try it...where there is one wiring error, there could be many more - so trust nothing! SteveBaker (talk) 04:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Call your apartment's maintenance department and report the issue, adding that you suspect the outlet isn't properly grounded. They likely have the tester Steve mentioned, or know how to check it with a multimeter, and should be able to fix it easily unless it is a larger-scale problem with the unit. I would also be concerned that there is an internal fault in your laptop. The ground is a precaution in case a fault starts leaking current to the metal body, but in normal operation it shouldn't be leaking at all and the neutral line should handle the entire return current. Katie R (talk) 12:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Heh, shows what I get for skimming the previous response - Steve already mentioned the fault in your laptop. Katie R (talk) 13:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It could also be a problem with that entire circuit - the grounds are all connected together, but not actually grounded. Or possibly the building's grounding rod has failed, or many other potential ground issues. In those cases it could be something else that shares the ungrounded ground connection leaking current, and you're picking it up through the non-faulty laptop. In any case, the management of your apartment should be able to track down the issue. If it turns out that the problem affects more than just that outlet, you may need to figure out which device on the circuit has the fault. A simple, but not foolproof, method of testing small things is to plug them into the GFCI outlet in your bathroom and see if it trips. Katie R (talk) 13:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
You can add your own ground until the electrician arrives. Connect a wire from the ground plug to something grounded, like a water pipe where it comes into the house. They sell adapters specifically made for this, that have a place to attach a grounding wire.
As for the vibration, it might be picking up that from something nearby, like a running washing machine. I have a metal goose neck lamp that picks up vibrations from the big screen TV and seems very much like what you described in your laptop. Apparently humans aren't good at distinguishing small vibrations from small electrical shocks. So, you may only feel vibrations, not a shock. Being made of metal seems to make vibrations worse, as other materials tend to absorb vibrational energy and convert it into heat, while metal just transmits it on. StuRat (talk) 13:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Stu, your suggestion to run a new ground wire to a water pipe is not a good idea. It violates electrical safety codes. One problem is that the impedance of a faulted circuit would be higher if the return path for fault current followed a different route than the supply current, since there is less impedance when the phase and ground conductors are adjacent than when the ground goes in a different direction. I wonder if the ground prong even enters into the problem, since on my laptop the AC adapter only has 2 prongs, phase and neutral. I know the phenomenon of AC leakage giving an appliance case a certain feeling when you run your finger along it. If you were better grounded you might get a serious shock. There is generally good isolation between the mains and the wires to the appliance within the adapter, so it might be faulted, with a stray connection between the mains side and the appliance side. The outlet might have the hot (phase) and neutral leads switched from what they are supposed to be, although as I said the mains should be isolated in the adapter from the wires going to the computer. Edison (talk) 13:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Your laptop is likely in a plastic chassis. UL requires devices with a conductive case to be double-insulated or have a ground connection. In the smaller/thinner/lighter is better world of laptops that means a ground connection is the best option. Katie R (talk) 14:20, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I am almost certain that these vibrations are the result of the aforementioned electric problem and not mechanical vibrations from nearby. When I switch to a different AC outlet in the apartment, this problem goes away.

This is happening on two of my aluminum bodied PC laptops and on my friend's aluminum bodies Macbook, so I'm not sure if it's faulty wiring inside the laptops. Acceptable (talk) 18:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

That's good to know, now stop touching it. :-P Your apartment management should be able to have someone check it out for you, it is certainly a big safety risk. There is a good chance that the only reason you haven't been shocked worse is because you weren't in direct contact with a good ground yourself. Katie R (talk) 19:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
What you have detected is almost certainly not a fault, but a normal leakage current of a few micro-amps which is very common and is not at all dangerous. I've been detecting this for over 50 years, and was puzzled by it until I read the Wikipedia article on Electrovibration. Of course, you should check that the current is not in the milliamp range (or even hundreds of micro-amps) because this would indicate a possible fault developing in the power supply to the laptop. Dbfirs 20:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
The bad ground on the outlet is dangerous. If a fault develops in something plugged into it then the entire chassis will be live. I'm skeptical on the electrovibration idea because it requires an insulating layer, but even if that is what the OP felt it shouldn't happen with a proper ground. Katie R (talk) 13:23, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Doe the plug-in adapter in question actually have a third (ground) plug, or does it just have the two prongs? Has the one offending outlet been checked to see if the phase and neutral holes are switched? Edison (talk) 15:38, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
The plug-in adapter (the power brick of my laptop right?) does have 3-prongs. It's a fairly normal looking Dell AC adapter. The AC outlet in the wall also has 3-prongs. Acceptable (talk) 16:07, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Most laptop bricks are double-insulated, not earthed, here in the UK. Katie is sceptical about electrovibration, but I've observed it on many unearthed appliances, and it is especially noticeable in a damp atmosphere. The Wikipedia article is misleading: the sensation is felt when dragging a finger over conducting surfaces where the leakage current is too small to be detected by nerve cells (and therefore not dangerous). Research on the exact mechanism is on-going, but I think the capacitative explanation that requires an insulating layer has been discounted. It's certainly worth checking the earth connection on the outlet, or getting an electrician to check it, just for your peace of mind (and Katie's), but if your power brick is the same as those some in the UK, then there is no ground connection, so the problem cannot lie there. If you happen to know anyone who could check the size of the leakage current, then this would determine whether or not there is a real fault. The "sharp electric shocks" are certainly not electrovibration, and possibly indicate that the circuitry inside the power brick is breaking down. If you are getting these, then I suggest that you stop using both the equipment and the outlet until you get things checked. Dbfirs 16:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
My understanding is that with a conductive laptop body UL requires the laptop itself to be grounded, which will happen through the power supply. Otherwise an internal fault inside the (normally isolated) brick could lead to a live voltage on the surface of the laptop. The laptop itself would have to be double-insulated to meet UL requirements without a ground connection. I just found this post [23] which explains the source of the voltage behind the tingly sensation pretty well. This is likely harmless, but it still indicates a problem with the outlet's ground connection which should be fixed. Katie R (talk) 17:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I think you are correct that a laptop with a conductive body requires one pole of the output from the brick to be grounded. Thus both the electrovibration and the more serious "tingly sensation" must be caused by either using the wrong (unearthed) power supply or by a faulty earth at the outlet or in the connection to the brick. I agree that it should be fixed. Dbfirs 18:04, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Black Kettle Argument ?[edit]

I just read an argument written by a politician. He is criticizing an opponent. His critique against the opponent is this: They are criticizing their opponent.

This reminds me of "calling the kettle black".

I tried to categorize this argument with the help of List_of_fallacies but did not manage to find a good fit.

I do not want to force the argument into any category. It has to be a perfect fit, or it would not seem valid to me. I am not in the habit of doing original research anymore, but I am attracted to the idea of inventing the term "black kettle" argument.

Perhaps I have misjudged it, and it is not an argument fallacy after all? Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 10:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Could it categorized as a special form of reflective ad hominem argument? Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 10:29, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Or one could call it a boomerang argument :) Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 10:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia has an article titled The pot calling the kettle black. --Jayron32 12:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes. The article does not actually state that it is a logical fallacy, even if the article has Tu quoque under the "see also" section. Is "calling the kettle black" in itself an argument fallacy?Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 23:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Tu quoque or the "appeal to hypocrisy" is the standard name for this fallacy. Tevildo (talk) 12:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
I thought of Tu quoque, but was worried that it was not a good enough fit. In the argument above, the first party accuses the other party of something that the first party is inadvertently guilty of. In Tu quoque, the first party explicitly accuses the other party of making the same mistake as the first party is being accused of. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 23:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
As for whether it's actually a valid argument, that depends on the situation. In an election with only two serious contenders, if one candidate can show that even though he has a poor record in some regard, if his opponent has a worse record in that respect, then the lesser of two evils argument applies. StuRat (talk) 13:19, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
You are right. Agreed. Mostly wondering of "calling the kettle black" is in itself is a argument fallacy. Star Lord - 星王 (talk) 23:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Renovation project of the United Nations headquarters "Capital Master Plan"[edit]

Is it really true, that the "Capital Master Plan" is the biggest renovation project since the early 1950s, the opening of the UN headquarters, or do the media only obliterate facts and in fact there were such renovations already in the 1980s, too, but, just to sound spectacular, mention only the ongoing renovation project? -- (talk) 10:46, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

You probably won't get much of an answer to that other than what is in the official UN website on the project here. In answer to a related question, the FAQ says "The UN spends approximately $19 million a year on maintenance, plus almost $6 million on maintenance staff. However, the building systems have been running approximately 30 years longer than their expected life-cycle." You are welcome to trawl through the masses of GA documents on the project to see if there is anything in them related to your question. --Viennese Waltz 12:19, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

decoded rechargeable battery[edit]

What is a "decoded" rechargeable battery (for a digital camera)? I've seen this description on generic batteries. Bubba73 You talkin' to me? 18:32, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Quite a few batteries have a chip on them to monitor the number of charge cycles, etc, and, importantly for this application, to prevent (or, at least, make it more difficult) the use of unauthorized generic batteries. See Smart battery. Using such a generic battery is likely to invalidate the guarantee on your camera, and I'm sure the manufacturers will say there's a safety risk, as well. Tevildo (talk) 19:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
One safety risk being that it could impact their sales figures? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:37, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

July 30[edit]

How much protection do the "Press" armored vests provide?[edit]

Can't find specifics online. What level of ballistic protection do those iconic, blue, flak jackets/bulletproof vests with the word "PRESS" worn by reporters in war zones provide? Acceptable (talk) 16:10, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

According to their website, Reporters Without Borders "lend journalists bulletproof jackets and helmets for free. The category 3 jackets, donated by the French defence ministry have “Press” marked on the front and back, come in three sizes and weigh about 15 kg"[24]. The corresponding French page ([25]), describes these jackets as gilets pare-balles de catégorie 3 which might help finding specifics of protection at the Ministère de la Défense or elsewhere. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Is that "Press" label to let the snipers know who to shoot at? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
The article on ballistic vests has a section on performance standards. Assuming the standards are similar in France (which they probably are, considering the French are members of NATO), the class III vest should give protection against 'normal' full calibre rifles.
That is when they were new, at least... to the best of my knowledge ballistic vests has to be maintained. WegianWarrior (talk) 20:30, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
(ec) The article Ballistic vest contains a table with details of the protection level of NIJ Type III bullet resistant vests used by law enforcement. In the European Union, vest protection above NIJ 4 is restricted to military use. (talk) 00:35, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

river water level reaching basement floor[edit]

We have a home on the river, this year the water table was very high and the water seep through the floor in the basement. How can I prevent this from happening again. I have no weeping system around the house, or any sump pump. What is the solution to my problem. The water table was very high water seep through the basement floor. the house exterior is sand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

The solution is to install a sump pump. That you don't have one doesn't mean you don't need one. --Jayron32 01:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)