Talk:Time

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Time is an intersection between 3 dimensional space and the 5th dimensional information field

What is this supposed to mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.237.126.183 (talk) 03:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Imaginary time

I have moved this section to the Imaginary time article discussion. Softvision (talk) 23:15, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}}

Hi. I think it's a good idea to add the following links (under the ISST -International Society for the Study of Time- link):

• Institute for Time Nature Explorations : http://www.chronos.msu.ru/eindex.html
• CEITT - Time and Temporality Research Center : http://ceitt.com/index-en.html

My first reaction was to say no, because the external links section is a real mess; however, I agree that those two specific sites appear to be genuinely revelent, and also in the interests of avoiding bias, I've added them. Cheers!

 Done  Chzz  ►  10:20, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I've removed them. Those particular pages do not even discuss the topic - but only announce upcoming events &/or ask for feedback. Other pages at sites deal with topic of time - but are only in the form of speculative, introductory questions about time --JimWae (talk) 18:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Time is change.

     Linear time is accelerated by motivation. This manifests itself as change of velocity of the flow of time resulting from change of magnitude of the unit of measurement. The observer of the change is only conscious of that change if the change is the difference between observations of the contents of two units 'now' or of the comparable magnitude of two units 'now'. The observer is then in the boundary between the two moments 'now'. Change of a static unit 'now' cannot be observed because the change is within the static unit. The unit 'now' is an interval of time of magnitude which is specific for the particular oberver and is a cycle contained between two limits of the 'beginning', symbolised by '0', and the 'end' symbolised by '1'. Seen as one, the duality of (0<1), is a static interval of time, containing observer's consciousness of the external world. It also contains consciousness of the 'self' and of the memory. Since 'now' is static it can change for the next 'now' only quantitatively and outside of the observer's consciousness, in which case the boundary is too small to accommodate the unit 'now' containing consciousness. There is no observable transformation from one magnitude of the 'now' to a different magnitude or transformation in the difference between parts within the 'now' itself. When the variable boundary is at its maximum the 'now', contained between the 'beginning' and the dynamic 'end', is contradiction of Nothingness and it is of unlimited magnitude. Change is then perfectly continuous and unlimited, so that the medium of the largest 'now' is the Nothingness of unlimited plurality of the 'units' of Nothingness

     To change from one 'now' to the next 'now', whether continuously, using the smallest 'now, or quantitatively, in the case of the largest 'now', or by a combination of the two, there must be motivation for the change. The units of Nothingness change continuously, making the medium of unlimited plurality of identical units of Nothingness, dynamic. The medium of Nothingness is unlimited, static and therefore eternal but it contains all the possible units of limited plurality and of variable organisations. This is possible only if there is a conscious observer motivating and organising the medium. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.29.36.126 (talk) 14:41, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Automate archiving?

Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days and keep the last ten threads.--Oneiros (talk) 21:45, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

 Done--Oneiros (talk) 20:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Time is not a unit

The second paragraph states that "... time is considered one of the few fundamental units." It even cites a source that is supposed to back this up. But it isn't correct. Time is not a unit; a second is a unit, and it is a unit of time. The cited source includes a quotation that talks about units of time or units of length, not the concepts of time or length being units in themselves. In general, a unit is an agreed-upon quantity of measure, not the abstraction being measured. I want to either fix this sentence or remove it. I think the intent was to indicate how important the concept of time is in physics; it is perhaps better to say that time is one of the fundamental quantities that can be measured in the International System of Units: length, mass, time, electric current, thermodynamic temperature, luminous intensity (which is actually a human perceptual unit, not a physical unit), and "amount of substance" (actually just an atom- or molecule-count). If nobody objects, I will change this in the next day or two. CosineKitty (talk) 14:19, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it surely souds odd. Perhaps writing it as fundamental quantities helps. DVdm (talk) 14:34, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Or, "a fundamental physical quantity", since there is an article for that? CosineKitty (talk) 14:57, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and then we might even drop the reference altogether. No problem with me. DVdm (talk) 16:18, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I changed it. CosineKitty (talk) 17:05, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Direct quote from commencement of second paragraph as of today 2010 February 06: Time is one of the seven fundamental physical quantities ...

Time a Quantity? We have concepts for time but that is all, surely? There can be an infinity (almost) of metaphysical approaches to defining time but all definitions are prone to fail: "Time is the vessel of deeds — no deed done, no time consumed — philosopher’s conundrum." And so on ...

For practical purposes we have working systems for time measurement, for example "mean solar time", "sidereal time" and so on. Fundamentally time is a unique abstraction in that its invariance is beyond challenge. I am open to challenge myself on this one! Wilberfalse (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

The current opening sentence needs to be replaced. Time is not primarily "part of the measuring system used to sequence events ...". Like distance or mass it can be measured but that does not make anz of them primarily part of a measuring system. Something like, "Time flows, separating and sequencing the past from the present and the present from the future." A far more general 1st statement. Also Time is not a quantity. It can be divided up and numbered or counted. But that does not make Time a quantity. A count of time gives a quantity. Not Time itself. Just like Mass is not a quantity. It can be counted but again its the count that is the quantity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.154.42.131 (talk) 12:37, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Saying what "time is", is probably the most impossible thing humankind has invented.

I think we only find solid agreement over the (operational) definition of time among physicists, engineers and John Doe: "Time is what we read on clocks" (see also http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/second.html). For philosophers o.t.o.h. the opening sentence will never be acceptable. I think that's just one of those facts of life :-) - DVdm (talk) 12:52, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

St. Augustine Part

"In Book 11 of St. Augustine's Confessions, he ruminates on the nature of time, asking, "What then is time? If no one asks me, I know: if I wish to explain it to one that asketh, I know not." He settles on time being defined more by what it is not than what it is,[23] an approach similar to that taken in other negative definitions."

If you are going to keep that quote from Augustine's Confessions we need to elaborate on the relevance of it to the article and how it relates to Augustine's inquiry on the subject. The setence that follows the quote is also pointless and sounds like their knowledge of Augustine's position on the issue is limited to that quote. In my opinion the quote does not adequately represent his analysis of time and some of the acute inferences he makes. I suggest someone with adequate knowledge of Augustine try and fix this becuause his contributions to the subject matter are notable and have had a wide spread influence toward the western conception of time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.49.50 (talk) 20:54, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once.

This quote is a witticism, said as a kind of semi-joke - and it is only part of the quote. It is something interesting, but I do not see any reason to take it so seriously as to assign it as a principle of science. It does not say anything specifically about cause and effect, though causal events are, of course, included among the events it can refer to. If only causal events were intended, then everything else MIGHT happen and the same time.

Some events DO happen at the same time in the same reference frame. Some effects can occur at the same time as the cause - it all depends on how the event is defined and WHERE it is located. Though the sunshine is about 8 minutes old, the change from day to night has a cause in the simultaneous rotation of the Earth. Lightning is caused by a static discharge - but in a sense IS just a manifestation of a static discharge - the only time delay is the result of needing to be far enough away to see it and survive. The requirement is not that the cause precede the effect, but that the effect cannot precede the cause.

If every event happened at once, there would be only one event. --JimWae (talk) 07:43, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Jim, concerning the bottom-change of this, cause and event are always separated by time - by definition. Two events can happen at the same place and time, so not all events are separated by time.

Now just compare:

• Google search the original cause and effect version: 5760 hits
• Google search your events version: 1 hit

I know it's a semi-joke and I know google search is not authoritative, and we are not dealing with academic sources, but your change is just WP:SYNTH. Time is not what separates events. It is what separates cause and effect, semi-joking or not. Therefore I have changed it back to the original version, with the google search added as a reference, but while retaining your top-change (with which I fully agree). If we find a more authoritative source for this, we can always add it. DVdm (talk) 08:53, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

• I cannot believe you think such a search would settle this. Did you not notice how most of the links were to articles with paragraphs identical to the wp article? They are wp mirror sites - and there were only 73 of them (and only 20 not counting duplicates). I am deleting the quote to avoid wasting any more time on this. Read Causality - there is no requirement that the cause be before the effect. The static discharge, the lightning, and the thunder are not 3 separate events - there is one event and the manifestations of the static discharge take time to propagate over distances. --JimWae (talk) 19:05, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, of course I noticed how most of the links were to articles with paragraphs identical to the wp article. Anyway, I have added the somewhat famous sentence with two sources to the end of the lead. It was indeed not sitting at its proper place in the time dilation section. I have also left out the speculations about causality. Let's indeed stop wasting time on this. Cheers - DVdm (talk) 20:03, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

The quotation is not partial, but it is misattributed and slightly corrupt. The correct quotation is:

“Time is that great gift of nature which keeps everything from happening at once.” —C. J. Overbeck

Biographical Encyclopedia of Scientists wrongly cites a 1978 American Journal of Physics issue attributing the quotation to John Archibald Wheeler. The quotation does appear in issue 46(4) at page 323, but unattributed. Look instead at “What does a man possess?”, a 1973 article by physicist C. J. Overbeck which appears in the August issue of The Rotarian at page 47. The quotation is from paragraph 3, the first column. Verify this online at <http://books.google.com/books?id=vjUEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA47#v=onepage&q&f=false>. I am sorry I am unfamiliar with the CITE tag and the citation markup in general and have not corrected the article myself, but I hope I have sufficiently informed someone with the necessary know-how. Cheers, MetaEd (talk) 20:07, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. Thanks for having dug this up. I have changed the article. Feel free to hone. DVdm (talk) 20:57, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

JimWae, even more thanks to you for having found and inserted the Cummings quote. In answer to your recurring edit summary question ("WHY do we keep it?"), I'd say, well... let's keep it because (1) it is catchy, funny and to the point, (2) it is all over the place and everyone seems to have said it, (3) it is bound to reappear in this article anyway, and (4) our Wikipedia article might be (or become) the only place that's got it right. Good job :-) - DVdm (talk) 08:43, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

---

Now we've got Bergson saying it in French

• Le temps est ce qui empêche que tout soit donné tout d'un coup. [Time keeps everything from happening all at once.] -- Henri Bergson
• http://ca.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&p=bergson+%22time+keeps+everything%22
• http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=time+%22keeps+everything+from+happening%22+bergson&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
• http://books.google.com/books?lr=&cd=12&as_brr=0&q=%22Le+temps+est+ce+qui+emp%C3%AAche+que%22&btnG=Search+Books
• http://books.google.com/books?id=qprjifRX9WsC&pg=PA74&dq=%22Le+temps+est+ce+qui+emp%C3%AAche+que+tout+soit+donn%C3%A9+tout+d%27un+coup%22&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0&cd=12#v=onepage&q=%22Le%20temps%20est%20ce%20qui%20emp%C3%AAche%20que%20tout%20soit%20donn%C3%A9%20tout%20d%27un%20coup%22&f=false

I do not read French, but apparently the last one gives a date of 1930--JimWae (talk) 09:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

---

Bergson wrote "Duration and Simultaneity" in 1921, but this does not show the quote & here's his bibliography--JimWae (talk) 09:38, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Current Time

It may be just me, but it seems that a page on time should have a current time. I don't know how to put such a thing on there (html?), but I think something at the top that said The current time is: XX:XX:XX (UTC) would be really nice.--E♴ (talk) 01:03, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

EDIT: found T:Time Cell which I think could be modified for this... looks like this:

The time is now:

05:41

Saturday

13

July 2024

--E♴ (talk) 01:09, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

EDIT2: how about this? User:E2eamon/sandbox I am going to add it per WP:BOLD If anyone wants to revert, go ahead and post a comment here. --E♴ (talk) 01:34, 10 June 2010 (UTC) EDIT3: I moved the template to the template namespace at Template:current time box--E♴ (talk) 01:59, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

• I removed it. I doubt anybody is going to come to this article to find out what the time is - not even people in the UTC timezone. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - not a newspaper, and not an applet--JimWae (talk) 05:17, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

• That's true...I just did a google search for time, and this article is #7. Anyone who wanted to know the current time would have gone to an earlier result. I guess it's just people like me who start by searching wikipedia, instead of google...--E♴ (talk) 13:38, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Nonce introduction

JimWae reverted my changes to the lede (diff), commenting "this IS an operational def. other appears to be a string of words with little sense that makes time an agent." JimWae has for a while now defended NONCE at this article, meaning a lede paragraph without a definition, or else one that prefaces the topic with a kind of disclaimer saying "there is no one agreed upon definition," rather than finding language that people can agree on. The current version reads:

Time is an essential part of the measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects.

This entire first part of the sentence is problematic, and, combined with the next sentence add up to NONCE. In my comment I wrote: "opening sentence - pls avoid WP:NONCE - time is not "the essential part" of "a measuring system." On the positive side, I can say that the lede overall covers a lot of ground and thus isn't so bad. So while I appreciate the good hard work that JimWae and others have put into it, I must point out that time is not "an essential part" of "the measuring system" that's "used for sequencing events." Time is time —not that. My edit added an actual lede sentence that said something like:

"Time is the transformation or change that acts upon all of reality, in accord with constraints that connect states in the present to events in the past and to a projection of the future. It is described variously in philosophical and physical contexts as measuring system or dimension used to sequence events..." (diff)

-Stevertigo (w | t | e) 15:11, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

• Regarding the existing 1st paragraph: 1) there is nothing at all in that first sentence that mentions any problem in defintion, 2) you have not touched anywhere on any reasons to support your claim that the first sentence is problematic 3) It would be uninformative to not mention in the lede that defining time has challenged the greatest scholars. But this does not begin the article -- it is at the end of the first paragraph. 4) A defintion in terms that do not already involve temporal concepts is impossible, so a certain amount of circularity is unavoidable (see Definition#Limitations_of_definition) 5) the def that has been accepted on this page for years now, presents the range of concepts that function to make up our notion of time. It gives a conceptual definition for time, expressing the contexts in which the base notion of time would apply. An operational definition of the units in which time is "measured" is then possible.
• Regarding your proposal: 1) you have not mentioned any reasons supporting any way in which it would be an improvement 2) It personifies (or, at least, reifies) time, making it an agent of change 3)it refers to some constraints, but nowhere does the article cover that 4) it externalizes the connection between events in the past & the future - making time the origin of the connection (taking the POV that it is time that connects events rather than something else such as energy or causality) 5>the existing lede does not say time is a measuring system, but that it is an essential component of a measuring system. Other components (especially regarding the quantification of motion) would be space & number 6) What does "Time is the transformation or change that acts upon all of reality" tell the reader? Besides personifying time as an agent, what more is it than a string of words that says nothing specifically at all about time? 7) Other than that the terms past, present, & future are temporal words, what does "in accord with constraints that connect states in the present to events in the past and to a projection of the future" tell the reader about time?
• Regarding sources: I can find reliable sources that support every part of the existing lede sentence. I did not see in my search any such complete support for your proposed sentence. The closest I found to anything that supports any part of your wording was that the *concept* of time is a way we have of speaking that links the past, present, and future, as in: "the *system* of those *sequential* relations that any *event* has to any other, as past, present, or future; indefinite and continuous *duration* regarded as that in which events succeed one another". They mostly supported use of "continuum" as a concept -- and not as any objective external reality. There were a very few that spoke of time as an objective substratum (aether) that is part of the underlying structure of the universe - but to have wikipedia state that as the definition would be to take sides on an issue about which a profound disagreement is covered in the article, and thus would violate NPOV. I think NPOV is an additional problem for your proposal.
• More later JimWae (talk) 21:52, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

• The NONCE template & the WP:NONCE article have been created & worked on only by yourself, and are in no way any wp guideline. Nevertheless, I submit that WP:NONCE does not apply to this article. It is not the case that this article "only reveals and discusses a concept's ambiguities or peculiarities". It begins with about as good a definition as possible for such a term. Furthermore, to not mention in the lede that definition has been difficult would be uninformative. Additionally, your proposal, since it "begins with non-definitive or otherwise vague language", is far more an example of your version of NONCE than the lede that has begun this article for nearly 2 1/2 years now.--JimWae (talk) 22:26, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your points - the fact that the current "working definition" represents a compromise for what was previously a rather contentious philosophical article, and that this version has sufficed for quite a while now. Full disclosure, I agreed at the time that the current version was adequate to our needs, and stepped back with an understanding that it would work for a while. It has, and I think the rest of the article has developed quite well because of it. Nevertheless, I have returned for a reason, because the language "an essential part" is not what time is. It would be better to state that time is a dimension or even a force that acts upon particles, than it would to keep the current version. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 23:22, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

• I see you have repeated your assertion that "time is not an essential part of a measuring system" - but I see no argument for your position. Do you disagree that "a measuring system [is] used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects"? Do you disagree that time is an "essential component" of that measuring system? Perhaps you disagree that these activities capture the primary usages we have for the word time? Surely you must have some familiarity with Definition#Limitations of definition. Some circularity is inevitable with basic concepts. Sometimes, as here, there is no other definition possible than a conceptual one. The "working" conceptual definition leaves aside the question whether there is some entity called time, apart from the activities we carry out to which we attach the term. Do the activities include too much? Are there other activities that have been left out? If we cover all the main activities "time" applies to, haven't we given a comprehensive context for the usage of the term?
• Do you have some other NPOV definition in mind besides the idiosyncratic & unsourced ones that "Time is a force" OR that "Time is the transformation or change that acts upon all of reality, in accord with constraints that connect events in the past to the state of the present and the projected future (which 2nd also has all the problems mentioned above)?
• Would it make a difference if the lede began:

Time is a dimension of the measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects.

• Sure, the word "dimension" is a more familiar term to apply to time, and it would not be absolutely terrible if that is what was there. However, because "dimension" is so familiar, it would just hide the emptiness of applying it to the only dimension used for all the activities except the last. Furthermore, a focus on dimension would overemphasize the other associated dimensions (of space) and screen over the other essential component of the measuring system, ie: number.

• You have not made your case for tagging the article with the template that only you have ever worked on and that is neither a wiki policy nor guideline. You disagree with the lede - but have not proposed any alternative that you can show has any support. Disagreeing with a lede does not justify tagging it with your own personal template without making the a case for what your template says it means. Offer a better lede if you can. If you cannot, isn't it appropriate to remove your template? JimWae (talk) 06:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

"Time is an essential part of the measuring system used to sequence events, to compare the durations of events and the intervals between them, and to quantify the motions of objects."

Can I add my own objections to the first sentence. Time is something that can be measured, and so is not just part of a measuring system (as "second" or "inch" could be said to be). Secondly, time measurements do not quantify motions, measurments like velocity do. 1Z (talk) 15:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

OPh, and I don't like this either

"Time is the transformation or change that acts upon all of reality, in accord with constraints that connect events in the past to the state of the present and the projected 'future. "

Time is not change. Changes occur accross time; time is what change occurs accross. 1Z (talk) 15:18, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Peter. Jim, the issue that I raise and which Peter adds to is simply that time is not "a measuring system" nor is it "part of" such. Time is time, and it exists independently of human measurement or for that matter, observation. Granted, philosophers into subjectivist worldviews can experience a warm and fuzzy feeling if they wade deep into the idea that everything disappears when they close their eyes, but that's not how the real world is understood, and that's not the way encyclopedia articles approach a topic. We defer to objective viewpoints.

Jim, you asked: "Do you disagree that time is an "essential component" of that measuring system?" - In a certain context, that is what time is, but in objective contexts time is quite not that at all. You could for example look at physical descriptions of time - all the way up to computational/holographic conceptualizations - and you might consider these a better generalization of what time actually is. Jim you wrote: "Perhaps you disagree that these activities capture the primary usages we have for the word time?" - Your language does indeed get to a serious idea about how we conceptualize time and how we contain it (the concept), but it does not rise to the level of a general definition that says what it (the concept) actually is. Granted, its not easy, and I appreciate your take on it enough to consider as a secondary statement in the lede. Regarding my wording:

"Time is the transformation or change that acts upon all of reality, in accord with constraints that connect events in the past to the state of the present and the projected 'future. "

Peter wrote: "Time is not change. Changes occur accross time; time is what change occurs accross." - Understood, though from a certain perspective, time and its effects can be thought of as inextricable. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 20:16, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Time as configuration

I believe a good way to think about time is to think of a "moment in time" as a certain configuration of the universe. This configuration would include things like the locations of the universe's objects and also things like the momentums of the objects and in which direction the objects are "currently" moving. In my view, time is a much more encompassing dimension (piece of information) than width, length and height. If you know what time it is, you'll know the current configuration of the universe and therefore, the width, length and height of all the objects.

If a moment in time is a configuration of the universe, then time travel is possible. Clearly, the configuration of the universe is always changing. Going "back" to a certain moment in time, according to my definition of time, would mean changing the configuration of the universe to it's configuration in the given moment in time. Of couse, it will be quite difficult to travel "back" in time if the configuration of the universe you wish to achieve is quite different from the current one, as almost any two universe configurations are likely to be.

But, if you're content with changing your "local time" - the configuration of the universe in a local area - well, at least getting it to match to a high enough degree, then it appears that you can travel to (change to) a time (configuration) that is sufficient for your purposes. For example, if you wanted to bring someone back to life, you'd have to reconstruct their body with their DNA sequences, etc... okay, it can be difficult! But, you can construct a clock that at least appears to cycle through the same local times. Using System Restore on a Windows machine is another example - the settings get changed back. It appears that you've gone back in time.

Do these definitions of time and time travel make sense enough to include a new section on them in the article? What do you think? Synesthetic (talk) 06:43, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Off topic and OR. The idea of time as a configuration has some insight in it, meaning that's generally how time is handled locally (as a state), but that's not what time actually is. You seem to be shaping your conjectures to match your original premise about time travel, which, as with most T-symmetry transforms, is not actually possible due to entropy. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 19:09, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Synesthetic:Off topic and OR. The idea of time as configuration has been fully developed into an eliminative theory Julian Barbour's End of Time, which you might care to look at.

Steve: There is no straightforward fact to the effect that entropy defeats time symmetery. See Huw Price's Time's Arrow. -1Z (talk) 19:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

?!? -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 17:41, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Lede

" Time is the concept of the underlying physical mechanisms that macroscopically transform reality —according to dimensional constraints and orthographies at the smallest scales —such that the state of the present is realized directly from past states, and the future can be pictured by projection."

Given that Jim and other mainstay custodians of this article have not vocalized any issue with the criticisms listed (in above sections), I have gone forth and added a new lede sentence (above) expanded from my earlier edits and with consideration of the criticisms given to it by thoughtful co-editors. For future reference, I encourage everyone to consider WP:CONCEDE and what its essential idea, if implemented, can do for any article discussion. Regards, -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 02:24, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I have already expressed numerous problems with the reification of time, and/or making it into a force, as well as the lack of meaning in the wording that you have proposed. It is not until the 32nd word that you touch on anything clearly identifiable with time. You repeatedly say "that is not what time is" as if you have found a better def, when you have neither sourced nor found anything approaching a def, and what you present does not even clearly distinguish time from things such as motion or causality. --JimWae (talk) 04:51, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the comment that time does not depend on us, but that does not make time an entity. We are simply unable to conceptualize the universe, even a universe without humans, without temporal concepts - but that does not demonstrate that time IS a force of the universe or something that objectively "exists".

If we cannot resolve this without reifying time in the lede, then perhaps we will need to return to a lede that says there are two views on what time is JimWae (talk) 05:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

We also cannot conceptualize a universe without number, but that does not make "a force that separates things" a definition of number. Some scholars claim that the best def of time is "what a clock says", and that the question of what time "really is" is unanswerable. Not all concepts are as amenable to definition in simpler terms the way rectangle is -- and if you look at the rectangle article, you will see that even defining rectangle has some complications. Some concepts just cannot be defined in terms of simpler concepts (there have to be some simplest terms). When this happens, the best we can do is delimit the contexts in which we use the term that signifies the concept. That is what the lede has done for 2 1/2 years, and adding your jargony tag neither improves the article nor helps the reader understand why it is there. (One of the examples of the limitation of definition used by Wittgenstein turns out to be number, and he spoke of family resemblance as the way out of the limitation.) Look at the distance article and the number article - the same limitations of definition apply. JimWae (talk) 06:49, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I do have another sentence I am working on:

Time is a one-dimensional quantity used to sequence events, to compare and quantify the durations of events and the intervals between them, and (used together with space) to compare and measure the motions of objects.

OR

Time is a one-dimensional quantity used to sequence events, to compare and measure the durations of events and the intervals between them, and (used together with space) to compare and measure the motions of objects. JimWae (talk) 07:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

OR

Time is a one-dimensional quantity used to sequence events, to quantify the durations of events and the intervals between them, and (used together with space) to quantify and measure the motions of objects. Time is quantified in comparative terms (such as longer, shorter, faster, quicker, slower) or in numerical terms using standardized units (such as seconds, minutes, hours, days) JimWae (talk) 07:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Jim wrote: "I appreciate the comment that time does not depend on us, but that does not make time an entity. We are simply unable to conceptualize the universe, even a universe without humans, without temporal concepts." - Jim do you understand much about holographic theory/paradigm, QC, etc.? -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 16:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Physicists identify FOUR fundamental forces. They do not include time as on of those forces. In order to put your supposed text in as a defintion of time you will need to provide extensive reliable sourcing beyond speculative determinism and ideas about many-worlds being a reality. You have not replied to the several objections I have raised to your text - nor to my points about the limitations of defintion.-- JimWae (talk) 18:36, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

You are assuming that I have "identified" time as a "fundamental force." I have not. Can we please drop the rhetoric and deal with substance. You have conceded that the previous definition, which you once staunchly defended, is in fact inadequate. In other words, what you once thought was stellar writing was not, and you were not correct in defending it. So though I diregard your adversarial tactics, I greatly appreciate your progress. Now if we can now project a future course of where this discussion is going, you may find forthcoming trends to be similar. Let me start off by apologising for using similar rhetoric to yours. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 19:35, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Jim proposed

Time is a one-dimensional quantity used to sequence events, to compare and quantify the durations of events and the intervals between them, and (used together with space) to compare and measure the motions of objects.

Time is not a "one-dimensional quantity." Putting aside that time may in fact at certain very small scales be a one-dimensional operation (on one-dimensional objects), time is not a "quantity," and nor is it in larger scope "one-dimensional." In fact the idea that time is one-dimensional is itself asserting a kind of POV from the standard model that doesn't deal with time in a very rigourous way except to categorize it as functionally single-dimensional and objectively relativistic, and rejects many-worlds (the basis for quantum computing) and other insights that are massively "dimensional." -SV

Time is a one-dimensional quantity used to sequence events, to compare and measure the durations of events and the intervals between them, and (used together with space) to compare and measure the motions of objects.

In addition to the criticisms above, linking "used" to quantification is an non-helpful easter-egg. The rest is material I keep in my version as a secondary explanation, and so the only issue I have with it is that it doesn't actually explain what time is (a conceptualization for change), and therefore is unsuitable as a first sentence. -SV

Time is a one-dimensional quantity used to sequence events, to quantify the durations of events and the intervals between them, and (used together with space) to quantify and measure the motions of objects. Time is quantified in comparative terms (such as longer, shorter, faster, quicker, slower) or in numerical terms using standardized units (such as seconds, minutes, hours, days)

The above criticisms still apply. Times numerical quantification is relevant, but inessential to a grand unified definition. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 19:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Time is not just about change - it is also about duration & sequencing. It is not just about the unspecified past - it is also about sequencing the past. Your text is vague - it does not distinguish time from causality or motion or change. With all its vague vagaries, your text does not, in the end, do what you keep asserting we must do - define what time "really is". (Here's a relevant essay that has been worked on by more than one person.) Your text does not define time at all; it is closer to a definition of change. It speaks of time vaguely and figuratively as some kind of "force". It speaks vaguely of some kind of all-encompassing deterministic causality. Along with lame links such as state, your text has several serious Easter eggs - such as projection linking to Many-worlds interpretation. We are not here to provide new "intuitive insight" or original research. We are here to summarize what the best reliable sources have to say. Perfection is a goal we can only hope to get close to. Text that substantially satisfies the desire for definition should not be substituted out just to say anything/something that pretends to be a complete definition but is jargony vagueness that pays no attention to sources. The text that has been here 2 1/2 years may be imperfect, but your text is still no improvement --JimWae (talk) 04:35, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

See when you say things like "jargony vagueness" what you are really doing is showing a total and complete lack of good faith or a willingness to find consensus. Very little of what I write can be described as such, and in reality you are just violating both CIVIL and OWN. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 00:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Jim wrote: "Time is not just about change - it is also about duration & sequencing. It is not just about the unspecified past - it is also about sequencing the past." - Duration and sequencing are objective concepts related to measurement (and not dimension itself) which are not fundamental to time itself (in the way dimension is). I like the formulation you wrote, but it serves best as a secondary sentence - one which opens up the door to objective concepts.

JimWae wrote: "Your text is vague - it does not distinguish time from causality or motion or change." - Causality is of course relevant, and can be added to my wording.

JimWae wrote: "With all its vague vagaries, your text does not, in the end, do what you keep asserting we must do - define what time "really is"." - Again time is not "an essential part" of "a measuring system" and it is not "a measuring system" - that is a strict utilitarian way of looking at it. Time is a fundamental physical transformation. It is the "essential part" of "reality" itself, not just "a measuring system." You defended the earlier wording and I appreciate that you have since shown some understanding that it was not sufficient.

JimWae wrote: "Here's a relevant essay that has been worked on by more than one person." - I appreciate some of the main points in that and I appreciate your mentioning it. But you seem to be under the impression that taking a strict utilitarian view is best, and more suitable for "the reader." You now agree that the previous version is inadequate, and have suggested some new alternatives - but again time is not "a one-dimensional quantity" either.

JimWae wrote: "Your text does not define time at all; it is closer to a definition of change. It speaks of time vaguely and figuratively as some kind of "force". It speaks vaguely of some kind of all-encompassing deterministic causality." - Your commentary comes not just from the point of view of an adversarial editor who has an invested OWNership of the article, but someone who thinks that they have mastered the concept and whose explanations are superior to mine and probably anyone else's. But I shown now how about five different versions you've proposed have fatal inaccuracies in them, and I think it wise that we not continue repeating this pattern.

JimWae wrote "Along with lame links such as state, your tex1t has several serious Easter eggs - such as projection linking to Many-worlds interpretation." - I noted this easter egg in the comment line and kept it contained as a separate edit. Note that your usage of "lame" here is a pejorative and adds nothing to your argument. I don't understand why you can't just correct these minor issues yourself rather than make a bigger issue out of them than they actually are and rigorously wave your hands claiming them to be fatal flaws in my version.

JimWae wrote: "We are not here to provide new "intuitive insight" or original research. We are here to summarize what the best reliable sources have to say. Perfection is a goal we can only hope to get close to." - It is not that perfection cannot be achieved, its that you don't actually understand what the concept is as well as I do, and you therefore can't actually write about it at the level I or anyone who is not a subjective utilitarian can.

JimWae wrote: "Text that substantially satisfies the desire for definition should not be substituted out just to say anything/something that pretends to be a complete definition but is jargony vagueness that pays no attention to sources." - You are citing V without yourself actually using it. You are referring to "sources" but not stating what those sources are or that the sources you cite are low level. You are easter-egging the "Sokal affair" from a pejorative and acting as if its an actual argument.

JimWae wrote: "The text that has been here 2 1/2 years may be imperfect, but your text is still no improvement." - I appreciate the concession, but how can you draw an equivalence between what you write and what I write? It is an apple and oranges comparison your are making here. There is no equivalence between my general and conceptual overview, and your version which is best usable as a secondary sentence. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 23:42, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Revert report

I'm experimenting with a certain tit-for-tat/adversarial way of dealing with Jim, who mistakenly regards himself as an WP:OWNer of this article. Comments welcome.

• 4 (cur | prev) 19:25, 12 July 2010 Stevertigo (talk | contribs) m (75,622 bytes) (Your text is less than adequate - it is unsourceable philobabble without the merit of even an intuitive insight, let alone a source. "Time is a one-dimensional quantity..." Ha.) (undo)
• 3 (cur | prev) 18:40, 12 July 2010 JimWae (talk | contribs) (75,269 bytes) (your text is more than debatable - it is unsourced jargon that sheds no light on the topic in a general- purpose encyclopedia. It is also POV) **
• 2 (cur | prev) 15:56, 12 July 2010 Stevertigo (talk | contribs) m (75,609 bytes) (Undid revert based on asshat ownership of article) (undo)
• 1 (cur | prev) 04:42, 12 July 2010 JimWae (talk | contribs) (75,063 bytes) (rv polysyllabic uninformative POV jargonese) (undo)

-Stevertigo (w | t | e) 16:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

• • THIS WAS NOT A REVERT - (JimWae)

• That was the wrong link. Fixed. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 23:44, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

• Is announcing that one is "experimenting" with other editors assuming good faith? How are announcing such experiments and claiming that I am guilty of "asshat ownership of article" helping to improve the article? Is anyone who prevents you from conducting and publishing original research guilty of "asshat ownership", or is it just me? --JimWae (talk) 04:40, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

• The issue was is that you don't seem to be acting in good faith yourself in this context. I think you are intelligent and reasonable, but have to some degree exercised a concept of ownership over this topic - to the disregard of any improvement which might come from someone such as me. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 21:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Impossible To Verify Negative Statements

"Travelling backwards in time has never been verified, presents many theoretic problems, and may be an impossibility."

"Has never been verified" is an impossible to prove claim. How does one know, for example, that the Tibetan philosopher, Sum Sing Wing Wong, who flourished in 1850 in the Fling Flong Province did not verify traveling backwards in time? (EnochBethany (talk) 13:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC))

Omnibus first ref

The first ref tag (from Jim?) is an omnibus citation of about ten different dictionary sources. The current lede sentence comes from the fifth source down:

"The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language". 2010. "1a. A nonspatial continuum in which events occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future."

I used it here, and I am happy with the fact that its general and usable. But its not our own writing as it should be, and I want to change it. But I'm hesitant to change this wording given JimWae has yet to respond to the above critiques, and that it seems to be adequate. There are other definitions of "time" in the AHD version which are just as superb and have relevance for our article. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 00:52, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Lede issues (2)

Of the many definitions of time that there are, there is no indication why that particular one should be the one wikipedia uses. At present the article is self-contradictory. The lede twice takes note that there is no consensus in the literature on definition, yet picks one that is not neutral with respect to the disagreement. A more neutral one would substitute "in which events are located" instead of "in which events occur" - but there is no source for that one. We will probably have to go back to beginning with something like "There are 2 distinct views on how to define time."--JimWae (talk) 01:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Jim wrote: "The lede twice takes note that there is no consensus in the literature on definition, yet picks one that is not neutral with respect to the disagreement." - It is a textbook example of a WP:NONCE introduction where, because of some "neutrality" between good and mediocre sources, a "there is no consensus" version is produced. Nonce introductions are to be avoided.

In my view, there is no comparison: The AHD definition excels for each and all definitions beginning at the most general (a1) to the most mediocre (11). There is no other definition which gets to the substance of the concept at the same high-level. It also subsequently treats the dimensions of time you appear interested in, and as I said above, your writing is essential to a continuation from a general definition. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 06:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:NPOV is policy. Your NONCE is not. The lede touches on the debate over how to define time. Wikipedia cannot take sides JimWae (talk) 06:48, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I understand the difference between NPOV and what you state to be reality. In addition to violating OWN, stop violating CIVIL. There are no "sides" - only arguments of different conceptual depth. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 07:01, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I think I said this before - insisting on observing the policies of WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:RS in the face of repeated violations exhibits neither OWN nor being uncivil.--JimWae (talk) 07:12, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I think anyone who has dealt with you knows the difference between what you do and civility. But I appreciate you taking it down a notch to label the current lede according to certain criticisms. Now can you please explain what you mean by "vague" tag? It does not appear to be warranted in that case as "[[physics|physical]] process" seems adequate. I would not mind it linking to something more relevant and specific. What article would you suggest?

The "failed verification/not found in source" tag does not appear to be warranted either, as the lede sentence seems in large part to echo exactly the source. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 15:40, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

You have added a significant number of phrases that do not appear in the source - nor in any known source. You are reifying time & you are doing WP:OR JimWae (talk) 00:07, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

In source

• non-spatial dimension
• past
• present
• future.

NOT in source

• physical process
• in which reality
• is macroscopically transformed

Paraphrased from source but attached to unsourced phrases

• in continuity

-- JimWae (talk) 00:18, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

JimWae, thanks for responding. You list four things which are "NOT in source" and "Paraphrased from source but attached to unsourced phrases":

• physical process
• ..in which reality
• ...is macroscopically transformed
• ...in continuity

Can you explain how or why any of these basic concepts are in the least controversial or controvertible? I mean, can you explain in some general objective way what is problematic with each of them? - Stevertigo (w | t | e) 17:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Nobody mentioned anywhere in the article, nor in any of the refs I've checked, defines time as a process, yet you've made that the primary descriptive phrase. The closest is language like "Time heals all wounds", but that is figurative language - nobody thinks time is the main cause that results in healing. You are treating time like a force or some kind of application of energy - but time is not "measured" in Newtons nor in Joules. This is your own research, not anything you have presented a single source for. --JimWae (talk) 18:21, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Time is also not JUST about transformation, it is also about endurance and duration. We do not need "As conceptualized by human beings< !-- as opposed to what???-->" because, like it or not, unless we hear from ET, OUR conception is all we can ever talk about. The first sentence does us no good, it is original research which detracts from the value of the article. We can very easily begin with the well-sourced 2nd sentence (without the "As conceptualized by human beings")--JimWae (talk) 21:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

• JW wrote: "The first sentence does us no good, it is original research which detracts from the value of the article." - Can you substantiate your view with a clear, bulleted point-by-point commentary on the four listed items?
• JW wrote: "Nobody mentioned anywhere in the article, nor in any of the refs I've checked, defines time as a process," - The word "process" indicates two things: "procession" and "function." Is "procession" irrelevant to a physical paradigm which "proceeds" sequentially from past to present to future? Is "function" irrelevant to a physical paradigm which the formentioned "procession" occurs in an orderly way bound by physical laws, as described in physics in accord with mathematical "functions?"
• JW wrote: "The closest is language like "Time heals all wounds", but that is figurative language - nobody thinks time is the main cause that results in healing." - Your comparison here is insufficient.
• JW wrote: "You are treating time like a force or some kind of application of energy - but time is not "measured" in Newtons nor in Joules." - These (force and energy) are two different things. In physical terms, time has properties which resemble that of a force, and hence might use similar terminology in their description. At no time did I suggest that time be treated as some kind of "application of energy" or that it be "measured in Newtons or Joules."
• JW wrote: "Time is also not JUST about transformation, it is also about endurance and duration." - Am I to understand that you are now trying to be constructive here, by saying that 1) transformation is now somehow relevant to time, and that 2) we need to consider "endurance" (huff!) and "duration" in the first sentence? "Endurance" is clearly a typo —you must instead have meant "persistence." And you already did a stellar job of indicating "duration" in the second sentence. I could not do better than you already have at dealing with this secondary concept.
• JW wrote: "We do not need "As conceptualized by human beings" because, like it or not, unless we hear from ET, OUR conception is all we can ever talk about." [..] "We can very easily begin with the well-sourced 2nd sentence (without the "As conceptualized by human beings")" - I don't know where you are quoting this from, or why you are raising this issue. I see now what you are referring to. When going from a very general, abstract, and objective look at time as in the first sentence, some transition is required when going into how it is used in special, objectified, and subjective contexts. I agree that its not beautiful, but some transition is required, and I think its acceptable. The word "conceptualized" does confine the context how people percieve and use time - which are what your secondary treatment gets into.
• Jim could you now deal with the four issues you raised in detail (there are only four of them, and its YOUR list), and explain why they are irrelevant or else unsuitable to the lede. Regards, -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 21:46, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

It does not really matter what we agree or disagree about. You have made the very first sentence of the article one that is mostly unsourced. Without sources, this is original research. Encyclopedias are not places to introduce one's own pet ideas & definitions, and on wikipedia, the policy is to remove such material.--JimWae (talk) 00:03, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

JW wrote: "You have made the very first sentence of the article one that is mostly unsourced." - It is sourced, and my writing complies with that source. Its the best dicdef from among the dictionaries you listed. So what you now seem to be saying is that:

"it does not really matter" 'what I [you] argued before' 'that there were four specific terms which I [you] claimed were irrelevant or inappropriate for the definition

Ostensibly these "[do] not really matter" anymore because you realize (now that youve had time to think about it) that there's nothing at all wrong with these four items ( 1)...physical process.. 2) ..in which reality 3) ...is macroscopically transformed, 4) in continuity..) or my overall formulation. A formulation which, again, is fully compliant with the source. Note, we can't simply quote a dictionary - we have to rewrite things. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 01:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

You have not provided a single source for anything, much less one that defines time as a "process" or "transformation" -- or even speaks of it in such a way. "Reality" is also unsourced & vacuous. Sorry, Steve, it has to go --JimWae (talk) 01:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

"You have not provided a single source for anything" - I provided the AHD source. Next. "..much less one that defines time as a "process" or "transformation" -- or even speaks of it in such a way." - This criticism has some validity. Lets do a quick search for some sources which deal with time as a process, or use "process" analogies with reference to time:

• "Space time physics and fractality."
• Aristotle
• Itzhak Bars
• Whitehead
• stochastic processes

I suppose you will now try to suggest that all of these be cited in the passage, and that every word I write have a separate citation. Jim wrote: "Reality" is also unsourced & vacuous. Sorry, Steve, it has to go." - Im quite familiar with "reality," and though I understand some people (such as yourself) have a different sense of things, I still think "reality" is relevant to the concept (time) and I think it should stay.-Stevertigo (w | t | e) 04:36, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

You did not provide the AHD source. I provided it and you "appropriated" it. There is nothing in any source presented that supports "Time is a process that transforms reality" nor "time is a process in which reality is transformed", nor "time is a process". If you can find something in Whitehead or Bergson saying that, then provide it and that can stay in the article. For it to be acceptable as the lede sentence will require much more. An encyclopedia must rely on sourced material, not unsourced speculative metaphysics of its editors --JimWae (talk) 01:35, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Btw, removing tags and radically altering ledes of articles are NOT minor edits, as has been explained to you already. It is very inconsiderate of the collective process to continue to mark nearly every edit you do as "minor edit".--JimWae (talk) 02:00, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

JimWae claims: "You did not provide the AHD source. I provided it and you "appropriated" it." - I understand. So you "provided" the source, meaning you did the hard work of looking up the AHD and copying and pasting its content here. After which I then "appropriated" the content by 1) actually reading it, 2) deciding it was a good source with a good conceptual take on how to write a definition, and 3) moved it out separately from the 19 dic-def omnibus citation you "provided" and 4) used it to substantiate the first sentence wording I wrote. The one you dislike so much. You have yet to deal with the four basic 'problem' concepts you yourself raised:

• "physical process" - (links to physics of time - debatable, but what would you prefer? "Paradigm?"
• "..in which reality" - Do you have a problem with reality?
• "...is macroscopically transformed" - You appear to have conceded that time has something to do with transformation (JW: "time is not just about transformation..")
• ...in continuity - (linked to continuum) - You appear to have conceded that the AHD source supports this term at least "partially."

I feel as if I am sometimes repeating myself with you. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 02:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

RFC on "Time is a... process"

There is a dispute over how to begin the article. An editor has persistently added unsourced material of this sort to the very top of the article:

Time is a physical process and non-spatial dimension in which reality is macroscopically transformed in continuity from the past through the present and on to the future.

The cited source was appropriated from a citation that was previously further down in the lede. THe cited source does not contain words supporting "Time is a... process in which reality is transformed" or any such thing. Editor has repeatedly removed tags applied to the text - with edits marked as minor. Editor is altering pages linked to in his construction in a manner to bolster his argument, but it all appears to be the same original research kind of editing. Editor has attributed WP:OWN to me because I will not allow him to add this unsourced material. There are 4 Qs that could be addressed. 1> Is the sentence properly sourced? 2> Does it belong in the lede? 3>Is it good enough to be the first sentence of the lede? 4> In its present state, does it even belong in the article?

This is a recent previous edit from 2010-JUL-12 along the same lines, also marked minor:

Time is the concept of the underlying physical mechanisms that macroscopically transform reality —in accord with dimensional constraints and orthographies at the smallest scales —such that the state of the present is realized directly from past states, and the future can be pictured by projection.

--JimWae (talk) 02:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)