Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

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The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please post on the policy, technical, or proposals pages, or - for assistance - at the help desk, rather than here, if at all appropriate. For general knowledge questions, please use the reference desk.

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Okay, hands up anyone who wants to discuss.....

Moved from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. --MZMcBride (talk) 07:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

[Link removed see below]. In October while I was told about this website as a place where concerned editors were discussing what to do about BLPs, and that the board was private and pseudonyms were being used, and that there were a number of people using it (24?). Rather than detail all the rumours I was told, I thought I'd throw it up here and see what folks thought. At the time, I told the arbitration committee and left it with them. However, upon thinking about it, I am not comfortable with the idea that there is another secret board which I have on idea about whether it is wound up or...what? How do folks feel? Discussing this may highlight to WMF how frustrated some folks are with the BLP issue. I was tempted to make an RfC but there was no dispute as such so....do other editors want the board made not-secret? or what? Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:15, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Who's in charge? Can we trust them? I've heard of certain external forums where the IP addresses of participants were used in less-than-admirable ways, so I'm loath to buy a pig in a poke as my people would put it. The BLP mess needs fixing but let's be sure what the nature of this forum really is. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Empty forum ... I registered, and still nothing there. Still no permission to view anything. Perhaps they're just looking for people who will stupidly give them their wikipedia account name and password. oops. :-) Proofreader77 (talk) 05:26, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible that some kind soul "in the know" could tell the rest of us what this is about? What website, who is private, what pseudomymns, what is the other "secret board", and what has any of this to do with WP:SOFIXIT transforming itself by some untraceable magic into goatse? Oh yes, and what does this have to do with the usually quite coherent Casliber?

Err, nearly all decent forum software will salt your password so that it's impossible for even those with database access to retrieve it. (Obviously it could be recorded on submit, but my God what a waste of time. Why would I want your password? Mine is far more useful!) --MZMcBride (talk) 05:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

If you ever read my password, you'd understand why it's the top selling password on Amazon. ;-) Proofreader77 (talk) 06:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Err. What. Why would arbcom or anyone on wikipedia need to know about a site like that? And what's wrong with the current "forum to talk about wikipedia's BLP problem". The EEML thing aside, we don't live in a vacuum. Like minded folks are going to coordinate outside the confines of the project. Frankly the less intertwined wikipedia and the "BADSITE" are, the healthier each is. Protonk (talk) 05:59, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it is just me, but Casliber's link sends me to goatse. ÷seresin 06:05, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

WTF, me too. Something I never wantred to see. Heironymous Rowe (talk)

Me three. I have an odd suspicion the board admins have seen this discussion. Tony Fox (arf!) 06:14, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Haha. It now redirects to the goatse.cx pic. No I probably do not want 'them' to decide what to do with BLPs. Unomi (talk) 06:18, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Could one of the "in" crowd tell those of us who haven't a clue just what this thread is about, and how it all relates to secret boards whose board admins have now "seen this discussion", and all explained in plain (or even fancy) English? How did sofixit become goatse and what has all this to do with external forums, BLPs and Casliber's usually quite coherent proposals? It would be a very kind gesture to enlighten the rest of us. Bielle (talk) 07:23, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

why is this an incident requiring admin attention. Personally I've discussed BLPs and associated problems off-line (you know not using the internet) and there is no problem with this. If there is such a forum, how is that different from a phone conference, meeting over coffee, or any other way that Wikipedian's meet to discuss things? Unless there is some evildoing to point to, what is the problem ? - Peripitus (Talk) 08:13, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

• Do you have any proof that what you say is indeed happening on that site? If not then why are you bringing this up here? --Coffee // have a cup // ark // 08:36, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
• Ok, there seems to be a fundamental problem with this thread. Wikipedia does not have any control over other websites. They can close their doors and discuss Wikipedia all they want, and there's not a damn thing admins, ArbCom, or even Jimbo can do about it. Also, I am personally a strong believer that any off-wiki activity except outing someone is irrelevant as far as on-wiki activity is concerned. So, I don't see any need to continue this conversation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beeblebrox (talk • contribs)
  • Agreed. --Coffee // have a cup // ark // 08:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I have seen it again and again, when veteran editors don't support an initiative, they will use procedural grounds, such as "wrong forum" to close the topic.

Casliber, a former arbcom, has a link showing possible evidence of a new secret mailing list. I suspect there is probably more evidence too?

Beeblebrox, ARK, Peripitus are you members of secret mailing list?

Casliber, if you don't start a RFC, I will. Will supporters of the flagged revision attempt to procedurally close the RFC too? Ikip 12:21, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The link is: [link removed] I suggest the community decide for themselves. Per talk page rules, please not delete this link again. Ikip 12:25, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Is this some kind of crude joke Casliber? The link goes to a really crude picture now. If the site existed, I hope you scrapped it, before you made this public. Ikip 12:30, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The most likely explanation, as per above, is that the site admins redirected upon learning of this thread. Throwaway85 (talk) 12:34, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ikip, did you read the thread before posting? For future ref don't click on any links where "goatse" is mentioned.   pablo_hablo. 12:37, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Which image did it link to? That may tell us something about the admin's level of creativity and knowledge of shock sites. Jehochman ^{Make my day} 22:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Or Wikipedia. It was linked directly to the Wikipedia file that is used on the Wikipedia article for Goatse. Please note that article and the file in its infobox are NOT SAFE FOR WORK. Risker (talk) 22:40, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I dug through the contribution lists to find the site Casliber linked to above, & used that nice utility known as whois to shed a little light on the matter. The domain in question is owned by another domain, "1and1.com", which is based in Chesterbrook, Pennsylvania; I don't know of any Wikipedians/Wikimedians associated with that town. There is a name attached to the 1and1.com domain, but the person is not familiar to me either. (I'm off to bed, & leave further conspiratorial speculations to the rest of you.) -- llywrch (talk) 06:54, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

This may be of interest. NW (Talk) 11:21, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Unresolving. The word on the street is that this was a forum that was dedicated to tightening up BLP practices and that its members were coordinating to affect the outcomes of AFD discussions. There was nothing visible there because threads were deleted as soon as a discussion was closed. I'm hearing things about who was a member there, but am not repeating any names without independent confirmation. It appears possible to test the veracity of this by writing a script to test for unusual clusters of recent participation at AFDs of BLP subjects. Would one of our coders look into that avenue, please? At the very least it would help to settle the concerns if this is untrue. And if it is true (or nearly so) I would for my own part suggest amnesty for anyone who steps forward and explains this to the community within the next 24 hours. Durova³⁸⁶ 04:06, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I registered an account there, as "Earl Gray". I also have not looked at the website since making the account, much less make any edits. I also don't even remember my password. I think monsters are being seen here. Keegan (talk) 05:35, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

While you may have a point about clustering of votes, I am afraid it is much, much more likely to show clusters of voters coming in to "save" articles from deletion. The philosophical divide between the so-called "inclusionists vs deletionists" has been present for longer than almost everybody editing today has been registered on this site, and any study will show that certain editors fairly consistently vote in certain ways. Therefore, any such exercise will serve only to demonise those who have a common philosophy; witch-hunts to point fingers at people as possibly being a member of such a forum, when the same philosophy or voting pattern may be shared by hundreds of others who are completely uninvolved, is precisely what Wikipedia is not. Shall we also equally suspect that inclusionists are using secret, yet undiscovered forums to force loosening of the GNG, or ganging up to keep articles of little worth? I am rather certain that my own votes weigh heavily on the deletionist side, not because I am a true deletionist, but because there's little motivation to comment in favour of keeping articles when the overwhelming majority are kept, and when the threshold for deletion is constantly being raised. I can quite assure everyone that I do not participate in any external Wikipedia-related forums for any purpose. Risker (talk) 04:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, analysis of clustered AFD participations was one of the things that exposed the Poetlister sockfarm. An arbitration case has just come to completion about offsite coordination. The only fair thing to do is to look into all such matters evenhandedly when they arise. Durova³⁸⁶ 04:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

In the EEML case, you voted for this principle, and described it as the heart of the case. If this sofixit.org is, in fact, a site where a long list of administrators coordinated activity on deletions and other BLP related work, and where multiple steps were taken to obscure the Wikipedia usernames of those involved... I find it hard to square your vote in the EEML case with your comment here, which seems to suggest we let it go. Nathan ^T 04:40, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Hundreds of editors comment on AfDs every week; it's not the same two dozen or so, as was the case in the EEML. AfD is a highly public forum, as opposed to individual articles; activity at AfD is regularly scrutinised on an ongoing basis by many editors and administrators. As to such patterns meaning anything, all one has to do is run the same scripts looking for onwiki statements to find the editors most likely to vote keep or delete of BLPs onwiki, in case nobody has already noticed the same names in discussions (on both sides of the spectrum) for a long time. Some editors spend a great deal of time notifying all sorts of onwiki projects about ongoing deletion discussions (and more credit to them, as their work draws the interest of our diverse editor base), which means that there is no reasonable manner in which to differentiate people who have come to a discussion because they're watching onwiki pages or offwiki pages. Risker (talk) 05:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Let's just not look into collusion this time, shall we? Disclaimer: irony

You're really not listening, Durova. This is a topic in which a few hundred Wikipedians are involved in on a near-daily basis, posting throughout the encyclopedia on public pages that anyone can see. Many people have openly declared their positions on this topic, in multiple onwiki pages. We have onwiki resources that specifically seek to draw interested editors to these public and widely read discussions. That the same names keep coming up is going to tell us that the same names keep coming up; there's no way to tell the source of their interest unless someone sends their archives in, as happened in the EEML case, and there is obvious collusion and canvassing as became apparent in the EEML case. Telling us that something exists doesn't mean that there is anything we can do about it. Risker (talk) 06:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I skimmed this thread and was left with two questions:

1. Did Durova get all of her information in a Skype conversation (off-wiki activity by Wikipedians, oh my!)?
2. Where in the hell did Durova get the idea that she has the power to grant people amnesty?

I'd suggest re-archiving this thread. I don't see any good coming of it. Though, as always, sense will be tossed aside in favor of wiki-sleuthing over a lazy holiday. *shrugs* --MZMcBride (talk) 07:20, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

This is way ahead of that discussion, Risker. People didn't think there was much to be done about Mantanmoreland either, and someone had even been using malware to try to figure out whether he was socking. That dragged on for two years until the community finally rolled up its sleeves and looked at edit histories. That was when we finally got consensus that he was gaming the system. Durova³⁸⁶ 18:42, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

MZMcBride, from what I can tell, you were involved in this forum in some capacity. Therefore, your requests to archive the discussion tend to inflame suspicions. I, for one, don't really understand what this group was up to. If you or someone else could explain it to us publicly (or even to arbcom-l), I think it would do a lot for promoting transparency. Among the reasonable questions one might have: (1) Does the group still operate? (2) Did vote-stacking occur? Cool Hand Luke 10:16, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

It looks like a forum to discuss biographies of living people. Forums have a number of benefits over using Wikipedia (far less visibility, no database dumps, greater anonymity, better software, etc.). I didn't vote-stack and I don't believe anyone else did, though all of the discussions seem to have been deleted by the person running the site, so I can't really say for sure (it had been months since I last logged in before I did so a few days ago). For all I know, there could have been a massive cabal, but I doubt it. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:42, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

this suggests that it set off a raw nerve with you, so I find this hard to believe. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:51, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, people are quick to look for an agenda behind my posts, so I don't think it's unreasonable to look for one behind yours. I realize it's the holidays, but an incredibly stupid deletion nomination followed by a wholly inappropriate post at a noticeboard for incidents needing administrator attention? I was taking the good faith approach and simply assuming you were burned out and needed a break. Though, if that isn't the case, I'm back left wondering why you're making the moves you're making (and doing it in such a haphazard, amateurish fashion). --MZMcBride (talk) 07:07, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Come off it MZM, you are doing your best to bury this thread, and moving it was one way. I had placed it there as it was a flag of user conduct for review - agreed there was nothing much to do while no-one admitted, but your behaviour ever since suggest you know very well what the site is and are intimately involved. And now the I-don't-know-what-the-site-is-oh-yes-I-do-but-not-much come over as lame. Hence the AN/I board seems entirely appropriate to me. So I made a delete call which sank? Who cares Happens all the time. I'd like you to quit hurling negative adjectives in my direction and admit you were/are annoyed by the thread's presence. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:25, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Err, I think it was rather obvious I was annoyed by the thread's presence, though I don't think it's the same type of annoyance you think it is. I wasn't really annoyed that you wanted to discuss the site. I realized long ago that anything involving Wikipedians will never stay secret or internal or private for long, and the nature of this particular endeavor made that ten times truer. My annoyance came from where you placed the thread, and it annoyed me enough that I decided to move the thread myself. Cas, you're not new here. You know that AN/I isn't the place you go to just "have a conversation" with the community about something. That's what the village pumps are for. AN/I is a filthy cesspool of drama—it's a place where you post if you're after some sort of administrator action or review, not somewhere you post if you're after a calm and rational discussion of the serious issues facing biographies of living people and what steps (if any) people are taking to address these issues, on-site or off. And even if you'd managed to spend the last three-and-a-half years here and still have not figured out where to post, there are giant boxes at the top of the pages explaining this. (And I say this as someone who has posted in the wrong place before with some regularity.)

I'm still curious (perhaps concerned is a better word) about your motivations, which didn't look particularly pure from the start and you've certainly done nothing over the past few days to make them look any purer (though undoubtedly you'd say the same of me). You say you're after some type of "user conduct" review, but you know that trying to regulate off-site behavior is a powder keg. When you're posting to AN/I about the erotic fiction that some users administer or the other off-site activities that Wikipedians are involved in, it'll make your quest for "review" here seem a bit more legitimate. But you know that it's patently none of your damn business what people choose to do (or discuss) elsewhere. You're truly in no position to judge what others do with their free time, you can only judge what people do on-site. If you find a pattern of impropriety on Wikipedia by specific users, by all means, feel free to post to AN/I and ask for review. But that's not what you did. You didn't do your homework and then ask for help when you got stuck, did you? (And, as Risker notes, the irony here is that if you did a large-scale analysis of voting behavior in deletion discussions, the odds heavily favor finding collusion among inclusionists, not deletionists.)

You've known about this site since October and only decided to discuss this now. Why? I don't know. Perhaps you've just been busy, but when I look at the broader pattern of your behavior lately, it looks like you're hitting some stage of burnout. This could be an isolated week for you, but I doubt it. Simply put, for all intents and purposes, it looks like you're trolling. Nobody goes to post at AN/I unless they're looking for drama. Nobody goes to file a deletion discussion for a page involved in a weeks-long nasty dispute unless they're looking for drama. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your actions, but they're pretty transparent trolling (to me, at least, "it takes one to know one," as they say). And trolling is usually one of the stages of burnout (Cremepuff222 just re-demonstrated this lesson pretty spectacularly). If we go back a bit further, I think there are some pretty clear indicators you're (slowly) burning out. The best example of this would probably be your quick drop out from the Arbitration Committee when presented with the opportunity. This is why I politely suggested you take a break, though you blew off the suggestion. Oh well. I've watched this burnout pattern happen a lot (to myself and a lot of others). I'm fairly confident you'll be able to recover, though. So it's not all bleak. :-)

You didn't ask for my analysis or opinion, but I provided it anyway, with the caveat that I could be completely wrong. Though, after a couple of years here, I'm fairly good at spotting these kinds of things. If you want to have a calm and rational discussion about biographies of living people, the benefits and detriments of off-site discussions about biographies, or something similar, here is a pretty good place to start (or on my talk page). I'm more than happy to have a conversation with you if you stop the bullshit and the antics. I hope you're enjoying the holidays. --MZMcBride (talk) 01:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I must say I can't agree with the statement "Nobody goes to post at AN/I unless they're looking for drama." Were that true, we wouldn't need an AN/I board. We could close it down and reduce drama. I'm also confused by the "It looks like a forum to discuss biographies of living people." comment, which was apparently posted after the link changed. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:43, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

If you can't fathom why I wouldn't remain an arb unless dragged kicking and screaming after a few people I respect suggested it was time to leave then that says more about you than me. But I will leave this discussion now and you can explain to the community at large rather than continually deflecting.Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:54, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

MZMcBride, it has been suggested that you were the "person running the site." Do you know why people would say that? If it was not you, could you tell us who it was? Feel free to email arbcom-llists.wikimedia.org. I, for one, would appreciate candor. Cool Hand Luke 11:06, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, some straight answers would be nice. So far MZMcBride has responded by trying to close down the discussion, moving it from ANI, throwing in tl;dr distractions like turning on Casliber and complaining about inclusionists, and claiming that Wikipedia wants to control all off-site activities of its editors. This is all smoke and mirrors. MZMcBride appears to have been running a forum at which admins and others coordinated their activities in getting BLPs deleted (a la the Eastern European mailing list, which just ended in lengthy bans), and once this forum was revealed at ANI someone redirected it to goatse, which really makes me respect those involved </sarc>. Then MZMcBride joined the thread about it, like a criminal returning to the scene of the crime. So, who else has been playing silly buggers in the Biography Euthanasia Squadron? Fences&Windows 00:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Well from poking around on the site I can confirm it existed and that the forum was named Sisyphus. Not much else.©Geni 03:56, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I have reason to believe that it was Professor Plum ... in the library ... with the candlestick. Hurry now, there's not much time before these people take over the world, one free Encyclopedia that anyone can edit at a time. - Rjd0060 (talk) 19:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Did anything come out of this? --Apoc2400 (talk) 16:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

One More Question About Criticism Sections

Why do so few of the pages have a criticism section anymore? This makes all the article seem like a one sided discussion. You will lose many readers and have fewer visitors to this web site because there are so few open minded articles in it anymore. I liked wiki how it was before.

BRING BACK THE CRITICISM SECTIONS!!!

from wiki user J Jensen seatle wa —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.2.216.137 (talk) 13:57, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Criticism sections. Their not forbidden, but their decidedly discouraged. From personal experience, integrating most of the content in criticism sections usually (not always) makes for a better, easier to read, article.
— V = I * R (talk to Ω) 02:31, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Based on my experience with them, I think Jimbo gets to the heart of it most pithily: "And I agree with the view expressed by others that often, they are a symptom of bad writing. That is, it isn't that we should not include the criticisms, but that the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms." There are times when they're appropriate, but they should be used sparingly. Askari Mark (Talk) 20:22, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

(British) New year's honours list

Just a reminder that honours are only officially conferred when they are conferred (now there's an oxymoron!). Until such time it is incorrect to refer to the subject of any honour by their post-honorific title. I see the obvious showbiz one (Mr Patrick Stewart) had already been knighted which I have corrected but everyone needs to be sharp about this. CrispMuncher (talk) 08:06, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to save some headscratching, our British friend CrispMuncher is talking about this edit to tthe Patrick Stewart article. I'm guessing that our friends across the pond have some tradition about using New Years in order to grant Knighthoods, which is what's bringing this up now...

Comment: I wanted to take the opportunity to comment about this in general. Please keep in mind that I'm not criticizing CrispMuncher specifically here. I personally find it terrible that, as a community, we've taken it upon ourselves to police things like this. Generally speaking it goes something like this: someone with authority to do so puts out a (essentially) press release regarding an upcoming event → news publications publish said press release → readers who are Wikipedia editors read press release → same readers edit related Wikipedia article(s) → other editors revert/edit war over inclusion of content based on "it hasn't happened yet!" (essentially relying on WP:CRYSTAL). As with the vast majority of Wikipedia policy and guidelines, applying the underlying principles of our practices requires a judicious dose of reasoning (often erroniously referred to as "common sense"). To use this as an example, I'm fairly confidant that both the British Aristocracy knows what their doing, and that there is enough attention to this issue that any "outlier" mistakes would be quickly corrected after the fact. If it's reasonably certain that Patrick Stewart is going to be knighted Real Soon Now™, then just leave the edits adding "Sir" to his article alone. Reverting those edits just makes us editors, as a group, look like dicks.

ps.: just to let you all know, I'm on vacation right now and I'm drunk, so if this post makes me look like a dick, please just ignore it!
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 08:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No, what makes us look like dicks is to be so obsessed with being bang-up-to-date that we are willing to jump the gun, and sacrifice correctness in favour of currency. Stewart is only an example. Has Rick Parfitt got his OBE yet? Has anyone on the list been to see the Queen (or authorised official) and receive their honour? Today's announcements are official ones rather than mere speculation, but it does not change the fact they mere announcements rather than actual conferral. CrispMuncher (talk) 09:12, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe there's something about the nature of titles that makes this level of "accuracy" worth it, I don't know (although, if you'll allow this upstart American to set aside "good faith" for a moment, I have to say that this looks like some sort of pride issue. I likely just don't have enough respect for the Aristocracy to see the Impending Doom inherent in stating that someone is a "knight" a couple of days before they're "knighted". C'est la vie). I just want to reiterate that my comment really isn't directed at you in particular, nor with the alien social customs of you Brits. This (updating articles at the first hint that something has changed) is hardly a new phenomenon, after all. I apologize for making you feel embattled at all, this was merely a convenient post for me to spout off about my unimportant personal views. Just trying to provide a little perspective, is all.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 09:29, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No offence taken - I fully recognise the difference between robust discussion and personal slight. I do find it slightly objectionable on procedural grounds - would you describe a US President Elect as President simply because he will be President? You may not care for the British honours system or its quirks but that does not affect the validity of those quirks. The difference between announcement and conferment can amount to far more than a few days though - from memory Rudy Guiliani waited several years before receiving his (honourary) knighthood. In fact looking him up I notice another mistake in that honorary knights are not entitled "Sir" as the infobox states.

If Stewart got hit by a bus today, after the announcement but before the Queen's ceremony, would he be "Sir" in his obituary? Would it matter if the bus were powered by dilithium crystals? (The first question is serious ... the second shows that there's something about typing comments online that brings out the 13-year-old.) - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

However, I'm smarter than that - that just shows how endemic it is. If the tide can't be turned I'll save my breath since it seems like a lost cause. CrispMuncher (talk) 10:07, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree with CrispMucher in the main. Just commenting to point out the honorary knights by convention shouldn't be Sir in the infoboxes (don't know whether you were suggesting they should or shouldn't), IIRC. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 10:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

To be fair (and sensitive), I would say the same if we were talking about swearing someone in to political office (President vs. President Elect). Keeping in mind here several very important qualifiers: The election having been complete, and there being little if any notable controversy about the result, and that the ceremony is within days.

I personally am an ex-military person myself, so the specific honorifics concept that we're discussing here isn't completely foreign to me. Quite a bit of this has to do with context, after all. Taking the POTUS title, as an example: if I were in uniform or serving in some other official capacity at the time, using the term "President" vs. "President Elect" would be extremely important. As a "journalist"/editor, writing a relatively informal ("unofficial" may be more appropriate word choice here) article covering the subject... not so important, as long as the specific context of the writing is considered (ie, saying "The US President Barack Obama, on December 31, 2008, stated..." would absolutely be wrong).

In terms of factual accuracy however, it's important to go in the complete opposite direction! For example, assuming that what you're mentioning above about Rudi is correct (and you would know better then I), then you should absolutely make an edit to his article.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 10:30, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Further clarification: It's not like they will become xBE's tomorrow, it could take upwards of a year for their honours to be awarded. Furthermore, if any of them receive criminal sentences or decline their honours then they're not going to receive them at all. Let's avoid rushing ahead to introduce inaccuracies and remember that this is a work in progress. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 10:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

They have already indicated they will accept the honours, or the announcement would not have been made. Johnbod (talk) 11:50, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

No doubt, but there's many a slip twixt cup and lip as the saying goes. It's all speculative until after they receive the award. -- Derek Ross | Talk 01:34, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Just for clarification, Mr. Stewart has been named to the Order of the British Empire (OBE)- OBE's are NOT entitled to the honorific "Sir" or "Dame". Only Knight Commanders of the British Emprire (KCBO) and above are entitled to be addressed as "Sir" or "Dame", so using "Sir" in the Stewart article is inaccurate either way. Thought that fact might be pertinent here. DaysOfFuturePassed 01:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

What about Tony Blair, who AFAIK has not collected his Congressional Medal (is it?) after what, 3 years now? Johnbod (talk) 10:46, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Being awarded a Congressional Medal does not involve a change of name or style, and AFAIK though he has not collected it Tony Blair has still been awarded it, whereas Patrick Stewart will not be a knight until the monarch dubs him with a sword, not when it is announced. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 11:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

well yea, I did (heavily) qualify my comment above with the fact that I know next to nothing about the specific subject (British honorary titles, or whatever they are). Maybe there's something about this particular subject that makes it especially important, and based on the above three comments that seems to be likely... I was just trying to generally comment about how we tend to be "bitey" when it comes to this area of behavior, is all. Part of the problem is the interface; since these sorts of issues are rather black and white, the info can either be in the article or not be there. I think that it's probably a good idea for "patrollers" to make a real effort to explain themselves in these cases, is all. Do the revert, but post on the talk page and on the users talk page, explaining the deal. Which, incidentally, kudos to CrispMuncher for starting this discussion!
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 11:43, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I may need to revise my opinion[1]. The BBC could always be wrong of course. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:56, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

"Has received a knighthood in the honours list" still does not automatically imply "is a knight". If my numbers came up on Saturday then I'd have "won the Lottery", but that wouldn't "make me rich" until I'd actually cashed the cheque. FWIW this comes up on a daily basis on football-related articles (where a player's move to another club may have been agreed in principle but not actually finalised for some time) and the general consensus is that while edit warring over something which appears to be a virtual certainty is a waste of time it is better to be slightly cautious than to be seen to encourage people to post "0-day" material, especially on BLPs. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:27, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

In case no-one clicked the link above, it demonstrates that the BBC is currently reporting the names of those in question as "Sir/Dame X". As we're supposed to follow reliable sources I would have to say we should follow the BBC, unless most other major news agencies are not already using the honorifics. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 10:59, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

That's a matter of style, not a factual contradiction. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:41, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I need an opinion on an idea as it related to policy

I borrowed (and credited, before anyone asks) the userpage design I current have from Phaedriel. She has a system to cycle her today's wikipedian section so that every 24-hours it auto-rotates, and I was considering doing something like that for quotes and thoughts and observation that I like to make occasionally. Before I went forward with the idea I wanted to know if that was frowned on in any respects. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:58, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what part would be objectionable really. Templates like {{QOTD}} are quite popular in fact, so I dare say on-topic stuff would be fine as well (civil, of course). - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 18:08, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I will see about putting my idea into effect then. TomStar81 (Talk) 13:32, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Bot: New pages with ambiguous links

I'm currently requesting approval for a bot that will place a message on the talk page of any new namespace 0, 6, 10 or 14 article with ambiguous links. See Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/WildBot. Josh Parris 03:00, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Site with perverted version of Wikipedia articles

It seems that the site http://www.zaped.info/ is a "distorted mirror" of Wikipedia. It serves WP articles after arbitrarily replacing a percentage of the words by other words, so that the articles look right but are actually nonsense. See e.g their Iron article. Since they are offering advertising space, I suppose that the motivation is to fool the Google filters that supress duplicate hits. Should we be concerned? Is there someting we can do? All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 04:45, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't seem that WP is being attributed on that page (which is blatant SEO spam), and there's no mention of the license (only a link to the GFDL), which would make this a copyright violation (as it's violating the terms of the licences under which WP content is available). The process for dealing with that is detailed at Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks#Non-compliance process. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:17, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

New template

{{Progress meter}}

I've been working on this for about three days, and it is now done. Please note that I did most of the initial work on test-wiki. That aside, when I was creating this template, I was not aware of others such as Template:Progress bar or Template:Progress, or others. However, looking at the code, they are not a nearly customizable as the one I have created. I just hope that it can be useful.— Dædαlus ^Contribs 03:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Why can't we view deleted edits?

From my understanding, administrators have the privilege of viewing any user's deleted edits (as in edits that occurred in an article that was later deleted). What is the rationale behind this? We're completely restricted from viewing any record whatsoever of deleted edits; we can only find out the number. If the means are available to admins, why are they not at least partially available to regular users?--Stinging Swarm ^talk 09:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Presumably the same reason that deleted pages are not visible to ordinary users. People aren't supposed to see deleted things, that is why they were deleted. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 11:17, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Deleted material is still occasionally useful for a number of administrative purposes. Non-administrators don't need access to them because they're not carrying out administrative actions. What is the use case here? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

...oversight? *shrug* (not "oversight" in the bureaucrat/steward sense, but the ability of regular users to see that "admins" aren't actually abusing their privileges)
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 12:26, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe the answer to the question is a legal one, Stinging Swarm. See discussion here.  Skomorokh  12:35, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I've seen this mentioned before, and it always surprises me somewhat. The fact that Mike and the Foundation have indicated that it might somehow be safer to specifically allow a handpicked group (we know that the WMF doesn't directly control admin status, but the courts don't.) of personnel access to "hidden" materiel on Wikipedia would seem to make the Foundation especially vulnerable. That nothing has happened yet to test that is likely more of a testament to the general goodwill accorded to Wikipedia then a lack of opportunity.

Not that I really care that much. The implementation of any such system/feature could easily address any actual legal concerns, I would think. I could easily imagine a system which does not require the use of user rights at all, where deleted materiel would be moved to a visible holding pen and deleted on a timed queue (unless there was a real need to actually delete something immediately of course). Anyway, I just wish that we would quit talking about legal issues here. As editors, even if you're a lawyer in real life, you're not a lawyer as an editor. Isn't there an essay/guideline about exactly that, someplace?
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 13:03, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

But the thing is as mentioned in the linked discussion, we as a community aren't talking about legal issues. Our lawyer did (albeit concuring with another editor) and basically killed the earlier proposal. [2] As your yourself say, you're not a lawyer as an editor, so even if you disagree with our lawyer, sorry but we don't care. You could of course take it up with Mike Godwin directly or the Foundation, but that's not something that needs discussing here. In any case, until and unless our lawyer or the foundation changes their mind, this proposal, the same as the earlier one, is basically dead in the water regardless of your disagreement with our lawyer's opinion... (Technically, we could still take a proposal as a community to the foundation but it's clear few want to do that, and they are entitled to believe that we should just accept their advice of our lawyer even if you don't wish to. Note that accepting the advice of our lawyer doesn't mean we are discussing legal issues. In fact those who wish to ignore the advice of our lawyer are usually the ones that are going to have to discuss legal issues since they need to explain why they're ignoring our lawyer's advice, as this discussions illustrates and there's little chance the foundation is going to ignore their lawyer's advice.) Nil Einne (talk) 00:48, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Your assumptions are showing...
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 06:57, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Personally I've always thought that auto confirmed users should be able to view deleted edits, not quite sure what you're basing the statement that very few people are interested in taking a proposal to the foundation on? Spitfire^Tally-ho! 07:26, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Fantastic FAC video spoof on YouTube

It's hilarious! :-) See the video here and the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#Video_spoof. Enjoy! Colds7ream (talk) 11:56, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:MUSIC

WP:MUSIC is apparently well-embedded (if that's the right expression), but the shortcut doesn't point to WikiProject Music. It points to Wikipedia:Notability (music). This is obviously confusing. Is there a technically-adroit way of fixing this? --Kleinzach 05:21, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I was just going to say "fix it", but I see Nihonjoe already reverted you for some strange reason. Not much you can do if people are willing to ignore your input. *shrug*
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 06:51, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

In the majority case, shortcuts point to policies, guidelines and essays. Shortcuts to WikiProjects start with WP. Therefore WP:MUSIC redirects to guideline about music, and WP:WPMUSIC redirects to Wikipedia:WikiProject Music. Changing the target of a widely-used redirect is not going to be allowed without prior discussion and a solution for fixing all the links it will break. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 13:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, but surely shortcuts should be (and normally are) named appropriately? They won't be used much if they point in unpredictable (unintuitive) directions. No-one could guess that WP:MUSIC would point to a notability guideline. --Kleinzach 03:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Well it's not WPMUSIC so you should expect it to go to some music-related policy/guideline/essay, which it does. Shortcuts aren't designed to have ituitive names anyway; how would you know where WP:5P, WP:VPP, WP:BEANS, WP:AFD, WP:A, WP:B, etc. lead without having seen any of those pages before? OrangeDog (τ • ε)

Indeed, I've never seen WP:B and figured it might go to WP:BOLD (which it doesn't). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Link

All is there a MOS that applies to linking to categories in the article text or infobox such as Template:Nationfilmlist if not can can users offer there opinions Gnevin (talk) 17:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

{{mtc}}

Will somebody please help me merging these 3 images to Wikimedia Commons? I can not do it myself.

[[File:Rotunda interior steinway hall nyc mia laberge art case piano.jpg]]
[[File:Artist mia laberge at kennedy center unveil of art case steinway.jpg]]
[[File:Artist mia laberge with henzy z steinway.jpg]]

At Commons there is a category named Steinway & Sons. The 3 images can be added to this category.

Thank you. Fanoftheworld (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Third opinion on the use of large quotations in some lists

Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to ask for opinions on this, or even if there is really a right place for that. In any case, it can't hurt....

Quickly put, I would like some third part opinions about the use of large (complete) citations of Medal of Honors as used in:

• List of Puerto Rican recipients of the Medal of Honor,
• Puerto Rican recipients of the Distinguished Service Cross and
• Puerto Rican recipients of the Navy Cross.

Generally speaking, I believe the articles would look more encyclopedic without them. Maybe Wikisource is a better place for this amount of primary-source material.

Thanks, --Damiens.rf 12:19, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the examples that you've provided here, I don't see any problem. Those look like excellent articles, actually. If the text from the citations were the only text in the article, or even if it were the predominant text in the article, then I might be troubled by it, but I don't see an issue with these examples. My only real quibble is that the footnoting for the citations should probably not use the ref/cite system, but that's an unrelated formatting issue.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 12:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

But the quotations are the predominant text in the article! The first article is 44kb long with the quotations, but just 12kb without them (72% of quotations). The second one is 44kb long with the quotations, and also just 12kb without them (also 72% made of quotations). The third is 20kb with the quotations and 8kb without them (60% of quotations). --Damiens.rf 12:54, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't share your view (obviously). I don't see the size of the text with or without the quotes as being meaningful of anything, other then the simple fact that the quotes contain a certain amount of text. The quoted text itself is visually distinct, making it easy enough to see the difference between the actual article content vs. the quoted citations. I don't see how removing the quoted text would make those articles better, and I actually think that removing it would make them worse due to the fact that it would be more difficult to understand what was being discussed.

Do you have a personal aversion to this text, or something? I'm scratching my head here slightly, wondering what your motivation in attacking the text of these award citations is.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 15:31, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I would like to express my opinion to this regard. The articles are excellent and the text from the citations are well sourced and imperative to the article. They tell us exactly why the people mentioned are mentioned or included in the article in the first place. I would like to note that these questions may not be as innocent as they seem and that it is believed by some that User: Damiens has problems with Puerto Rican related articles, see: [3] and [4]. Antonio Martin (talk) 15:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I see no issues with the quotes per se. As usual, {{cquote}} is misused; see the template documentation for the MOS references. The list format is different from other articles in the series such as List of African-American Medal of Honor recipients, but that should be worked out at WP:MILHIST. The DSC and NC are not inherently notable, so lists should be only of notable persons. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 20:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I think the quotes are too much, not necessarily in the context of being non-free content, but that we are not a memorial. It is certainly important to note who received these awards and for why, but the full quote of the "why" is so pontificating as to lose its encyclopedic value in this regard. --MASEM (t) 20:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

  FYI: the text for US military medal citations are PD, as documents of the US Federal Government.
  — V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 22:25, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• It seems to me a lot of the quoted material could be paraphrased without damaging the integrity of the article. The article as-is does seem to carry a lot of flavor of a WP:MEMORIAL rather than a typical encyclopedia entry. Shereth 22:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)