Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

See also
Wikipedia talk:Writing better articles
Wikipedia talk:Article titles
Wikipedia talk:Quotations
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/quotation and punctuation

Manual of Style FAQ

Dear colleagues

I think the idea of an FAQ is sound. I do believe it should be very succinct, friendly in tone, and should deal with the issues that come up most frequently, here and in articles. Links to discussions/consensus and MoS sections could be provided within or after each "answer".

The secret to a successful FAQ is to ration both the number of issues treated and the "responses"; otherwise it would be like reading the MoS all over again. This will be frustrating, since almost all aspects of the MoS are transgressed; I think the aim should be to cover the most common/vexing issues.

I'd like to start the ball rolling by asking you to list the specific points of the MoS that editors raise most often, and the things editors most often get wrong in articles. For this, we need to draw on our combined memory of article-writing in the project, as well as possibly looking through the archives of this page.

Your thoughts?

To start, I've listed these ones (in no particular order, and all subject to removal). Please add to this list judiciously. Tony (talk) 22:40, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

• Internal/external punctuation (quotations)
• Title vs sentence case in article and section titles
• Non-breaking spaces
• Single vs double quotation marks
• Straight vs curly glyphs
• En dashes vs hyphens
• En dashes vs em dashes (interrupters)
• Ellipsis points: to space or not to space
• Engvar: what to do if someone changes the variety in an existing article
• Numbers as figures or words
• Collective plurals
• Singular they
• "Note that ..."

The only issues that have come up more than once in the past few months are the American vs. British/datasafe punctuation with quotation marks, single vs. double quotation marks and the en dash issues. The only one of those that had a solid technical reason was single vs. double quotation marks: "Because single quotes interfere with search features on many current browsers." It's the only clearly FAQable issue that I can see on this list. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:41, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I believe there are technical reasons for everything that is in the MoS, whether an individual contributor agrees with them or not. Nevertheless, the purpose of an FAQ is to increase the accessibility of the MoS for editors out there we serve, and in doing so to save them and us the trouble of asking and responding to queries here and at other styleguides, such as WP:LINK and WP:MOSNUM. Tony (talk) 23:58, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

By technical, I here meant having to do with the technology, separate from opinion or interpretation. The purpose of the MoS is to provide users with Wikipedia's style rules in a clear an accessible way, but the purpose of this discussion page is to provide a place where those style rules can be discussed, questioned, improved and clarified. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I have made a bare-bones FAQ and put it at the top of this page. Everyone is welcome to edit and expand it. You are even welcome to throw out my entire text for trivial reasons. At the moment there are no citations to past discussions, just drafts of statements of what I think consensus roughly is on a very small number of topics. Please edit away! Ozob (talk) 21:09, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Top of what page? Darkfrog, you're still trumpeting nationalistic views on punctuation, I see. Why does my daily newspaper use internal punctuation, then? Tony (talk) 21:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Who said anything about a top of a page? And I'm not "trumpeting" anything! Never having seen your local newspaper, Tony, I wouldn't know a thing about it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:35, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Now, now. At the risk of offending everyone by stating the obvious, the three preceding posts are:

• "I have made a bare-bones FAQ and put it at the top of this page ...", referring to the beige rectangle at the top of this Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style page; look for the blue question mark.
• "Top of what page? ..."
• "Who said anything about a top of a page? ..." Either I or everyone else are missing something awfully basic. Art LaPella (talk) 05:47, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Top of this discussion page, between the two archive search boxes. Which, I must ask, do we really need two of them so close to each other? maybe we should integrate the {{round and round}} box with the archives list. Any way, I also made a slight change to Ozob's nascent FAQ, describing what an interruptive emdash actual is, as the sort of editor that is likely to need the FAQ on dashes is also likely the sort of editor less versed with the terminology. oknazevad (talk) 21:34, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the extra search bar and relocated {{Round in circles}} so that it's near where the archive search bar used to be. The embryonic FAQ is right below the Round in circles template. Ozob (talk) 22:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me.oknazevad (talk) 23:33, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I like that the FAQ is very concise so far, and I hope that it stays that way. However, it was way, way too kiss-a[r]s[s|e]. The urge to preemptively appease "some editors" was so weasel-wordy that it actually introduced factual errors. For example, the fact that logical quotation preserves the quoted material more precisely and the fact that using different dashes is a readability improvement are in fact facts – if I may use "fact" as many times as possible in one sentence – and are not matters of opinion that "many editors" can feel one way about and "other editors" can have a different take on. Whether these facts are important or whatever can certainly be a matter of opinion, but the two facts themselves have never been in dispute. Next, whoever added the bit about logical quotation not being "standard" US or UK style needs to knock it off. There's no "standard" style in either country, as has been established here more than once, with citation of US and UK publications using both styles. Logical quotation is extremely common in the UK, so the suggestion that it's weird to the British is off-kilter. Finally, I'm not sure that the "taught in schools" bit makes much sense, since we cannot prove that no schools teach any of these things. I'm sure a great number of non-US schools do in fact teach logical quotation, since 90%+ of the publications in those countries use it. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 10:00, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

That many Wikipedians believe that datasafe quotes/"logical" quotation is a better system is 100% true. However, it is absolutely a matter of opinion. By saying that many Wikipedians believe that LQ does a better job, the answer makes clear that it is a matter of consensus rather than a matter of facts. And no, logical quotation does not happen to be standard in either U.S. or U.K. English. However, Tony had already removed the references to U.S. and U.K. English and I find that the answer works well enough without them. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

That it is true that many Wikipedians believe X is irrelevant. The text did not say LQ "does a better job", is very specifically stated what LQ is, for an undeniable fact, better at. To date there appears to be nothing at all that typsetters' quotation is better at other than muddling what the quoted party did or did not actually say/write. In my opinion, LQ is therefore clearly "better", but I did not push any such wording. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 01:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

It's relevant because that's the answer to the question being posed. The question in the FAQ isn't "How is LQ different from American and British standard punctuation styles?" it's "Why does the MoS mandate logical quotation?" The answer to that question is because more Wikipedians like it than like other styles. The most complimentary and unbiased way to phrase that without entering into falsehood is, "Many Wikipedians believe that it does a better job of preserving quoted text." However, LQ is not actually more precise in practice than either American or British punctuation. Neither American nor British styles actually fail where LQ succeeds, and the FAQ must not claim otherwise.

I'd settle for something to the effect of "Wikipedia's consensus is that logical quotation does a better job of preserving quoted text" if "Many Wikipedians believe" isn't working for you. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:01, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I wrote "taught in schools" because one argument that unfortunately seems to recur here is, "My high-school English teacher said it, and therefore it's true." (Just search for "teacher" in the archives and you'll find it over and over.) My hope was to meet that argument head-on, and I couldn't think of how else to do it. Ozob (talk) 12:32, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, but it seems to me that it should be its own point, not embedded in one particular grammatical point, since it's not relevant to that particular point but is a meta issue, no? — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 01:16, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe that the references and Wikilinks to WP:Consensus should remain. Not only do they help us sidestep the issue of whether or not this consensus is factually correct but it will also direct new users to the page on consensus, making it clear that the matters were settled (or "settled," see conversations about consensus below) on Wikipedia's terms and that "consensus" here has a specific meaning. This makes it doubly informative rather than singly deceptive. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Tony and I disagree with you. I believe that it is objective truth that logical quotation preserves the speaker's words better than the traditional American system. I also believe that it is objective truth that using different glyphs for different dashes improves readability. To say that these opinions are merely consensus is an error; the FAQ should not err. I have put a link to WP:Consensus at the top of the FAQ, which I believe addresses your concern better than separate links to consensus in each answer. Ozob (talk) 22:01, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

If it were the objective truth, then it would be possible for one of you to demonstrate it. Unfortunately, 150 years of practice show that the American system preserves text just fine. Secondly, it is completely untrue that referring to this as a Wikipedia consensus causes harm. It is a Wikipedia consensus, therefore it is neither false nor an error to say so. That being said, I don't object to the link being elsewhere in the FAQ so long as the word remains. It think it would be better to put the link right where the readers will see it, but as it is, it will do. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Here is a demonstration.

1. By definition, the characters between the quotation marks are the same as the characters appearing in the source if and only if the quotation is logically quoted.
2. One of the implications in the above tautology is that if the characters between the quotation marks are the same as the characters appearing in the source, then the quotation is logically quoted.
3. Therefore by contrapositive, if the quotation is not logically quoted, then the characters between the quotation marks are not the same as the characters in the source. Q.E.D.

I agree that it is also a Wikipedia consensus that logical quotation most accurately preserves the speaker's words; all that means is that Wikipedia consensus is for the truth. Ozob (talk) 19:19, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

That isn't a demonstration of LQ. It's a series of logical proofs that make it look as though LQ ought to work in a certain way, but it doesn't show that it actually does or more relevantly, that it actually does better than American or British standards in encyclopedia-style writing. It also doesn't address the use of words-as-words, song titles, short story titles and all the other uses of quotation marks that have nothing to do with quoting sources.

On a more academic level, I totally disagree that a Wikipedia consensus determines the truth. There is one objective reality for all beings, regardless of what those beings believe. Otherwise, the Sun would have traveled around the Earth and Galileo would have been unable to observe otherwise.

As to whether the preponderance of Wikipedians are correct in their belief that LQ is better, we can certainly argue about it—and we probably will the next time someone brings it up. However, if the question is whether there is currently a Wikipedia consensus to use LQ, then yes, we are in agreement that there is. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

If it is a correct logical proof, then I don't see how you can reject it. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see where you pointed out a flaw in my argument.

I did not claim that a Wikipedia consensus determines the truth. I claimed that as regards logical quotation, Wikipedia consensus accords with the truth. Ozob (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

What your proofs actually do is define LQ, not demonstrate its effectiveness in practice. It doesn't take mistakes into account. Your proofs indicate not that Wikipedia editors are less likely to make errors if they use LQ but rather that if an error is made, the quotation no longer counts as LQ. It may be true that when LQ is used perfectly, the text will be preserved perfectly, but that is equally true of both American and British punctuation. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:20, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

No, it is not equally true of other styles of punctuation. That is what I proved above: All other styles of punctuation insert characters into or delete characters from the original text. Perhaps I need a fourth point: The characters between the quotation marks are not the same as the characters in the source if and only if the original text has not been accurately preserved. Traditional American punctuation therefore does not preserve the original text.

I have never claimed that editors are less likely to make mistakes when using LQ or that LQ is easier to use in practice. We have not defined "effectiveness", so I certainly haven't demonstrated its effectiveness. All I have shown you is that LQ is more accurate: It preserves the original text perfectly by definition, and other systems do not by definition. Therefore it is an objective truth that LQ preserves the original text better than other systems. It is not merely consensus. Ozob (talk) 12:22, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Ozob, all three forms of punctuation do that. They all take some characters from the source and leave others behind. In American punctuation, the closing period or comma, if any, is understood to be part of the quotation process, like the quotation marks themselves, and the "original text" is what's inside. In this respect, LQ has provides no advantage over other forms. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:49, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Consider the following passages; to control for things like mistakes and misunderstandings, assume that both writer and reader are aware of what style is being used.

• "It was the strangest experience of my life," he later wrote.
• He later wrote, "It was the strangest experience of my life."

Under LQ, the reader knows that the punctuation was in the original, while under TQ, the reader has absolutely no idea whether the punctuation was in the original.

• "It was the strangest experience of my life", he later wrote.
• He later wrote, "It was the strangest experience of my life".

Under LQ, the reader knows that the punctuation probably wasn't in the original — not certain knowledge, but not zero knowledge either.

From these, it would appear that LQ always provides more information than TQ. --Pi zero (talk) 14:41, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

In all those cases, the line could have been either "It was the strangest experience of my life [period]" or "It was the strangest experience of my life [comma] [subsequent independent clause]." Neither LQ nor British or American standards (which would both put the punctuation inside on a dialogue quote like this one) show where the sentence truly stops in the original. In either case, the reader must view the original to be sure or—more likely because this is the goal of encyclopedic writing—trust that the writer who quoted the material has included the information that is relevant to the article. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

In each of the first two sentences under LQ, it is not possible that the particular original passage being quoted did not contain the punctuation — unless the quoting editor made a mistake, which I had intended to explicitly control against (though I see my words fell short of saying that) since I was trying to address the correct use of these styles. I did actually intend each of the four sentences to be considered separately; if my lazily grouping them in pairs caused confusion, I apologize. If those first two sentences both occur in an article, and are both correct, then they must be quoting two different instances, in one of which the quoted words were followed by a comma, and in the other of which they were followed by a period. --Pi zero (talk) 15:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

No need to apologize; these things are going to look ambiguous no matter which way they're portrayed. What happened is that it did not look as though you were using LQ during the first two lines because they are identical to British and American usage. Taking what you were actually doing into account, the precision that you describe can't be determined because it is not clear that LQ is in use. That's a problem that would go away if, after a generation or two, LQ became standard, but it isn't the case now. That being said, in those first two examples, all three styles work equally well because they have the exact same effect on the text. So what these examples really show is that LQ only does anything useful when it does the exact same thing as BQ and AQ, so there's really no reason to prefer it over BQ and AQ. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The way to sort out the issues involved in this is to divide and conquer, carefully isolating each specific objective point and getting it straight before moving on to the next. That's why I temporarily limited my attention to a very specific situation, in which the style is known to both editor and reader and is being used correctly by the editor. You've just violated those assumptions, introducing other factors that there's no chance of getting straight if one doesn't understand the simpler case I've outlined. I'd be happy to address your assessment of the more complicated case if I had any confidence that you understand the simpler case; but, on the contrary, I've gradually come to suspect that you don't understand the basic case. It seems that when confronted with the basic case you change the assumptions, in a way that suggests you aren't being evasive but that in fact your eyes just sort of slide off it (like an SEP field) — this is central to my further suspicion that what we've got here, though it surely does involve some authentic disagreement, also involves a significant failure to communicate. --Pi zero (talk) 18:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

In other words, I looked at it the way it would actually be viewed by a reader of this encyclopedia. Are there situations in which LQ is preferable? Perhaps it would be in programming publications in which there are so many raw data strings that it just makes more sense to use a system designed for data strings than one that makes exceptions for data strings. This is not a programming publication. More specifically, I assumed not that the editor was making a mistake but rather that the reader could see what the editor had put on the page but not what the editor was thinking or the rationale that that editor used to make the decision. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

When there is a failure to communicate, go to the foundation. Please define "basic case" as you are using the term—if you believe that would be an appropriate use of your time, that is. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Striving for mutual understanding is a worthy use of time, I think. (Granted, I have to timeshare WP with the rest of my life, but that's why my next comment sometimes takes a day or several to materialize.)

The simplified case I'm addressing is that the editor who writes the sentence (a.k.a. the "quoter", the person who is doing the quoting) is correctly applying the style (LQ or TQ), and the reader observing the sentence knows what style the editor is applying. Complications temporarily excluded due to these simplifications include (I hesitate to claim these are exhaustive) that the editor might not be correctly applying the style, and that the reader might not know the style or might be mistaken about the style. And yes, I do heartily agree that these simplifying assumptions are not the most common situation with Wikipedia articles (although the simplified case must surely happen sometimes). --Pi zero (talk) 20:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I would argue that your assumption of the reader knowing what style has been used effectively never occurs on Wikipedia. It's similar to a broken clock: it's right twice a day, but it doesn't ever give useful information (unless of course we have another working clock on hand). You don't know whether an article uses LQ unless you have the source open next to it and are comparing quote for quote. We should be clear in this discussion that providing for the use of LQ in the MOS does not increase the information content of Wikipedia articles. (Which isn't to say it's not the best system, if we find ourselves wanting to mandate a particular style.) Christopher Parham (talk) 21:09, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Depends on the strength of the qualifier "effectively". It isn't necessary to my point that it ever happen, as this is a gedankenexperiment, meant to provide insight into the dynamics of the phenomena under scrutiny by asking what would happen under hypothetical circumstances. That said, here's a situation in which it is tolerably likely that it might happen: a group of Wikipedians collaborate to upgrade an article, and they use the talk page of the article to mutually agree on various conventions that they're all going to follow — one of these collaborators is the quoter who writes the sentence, and another of the collaborators is the reader who observes the sentence.

There's also some difficulty with what you mean by "know": in sufficiently strict use of that word, reading a Wikipedia article cannot ever induce any kind of knowledge whatsoever, since Wikipedia is not itself a reliable source. That sense of the word "know" is useful for some purposes (notably, choosing sources for a WP article), but for this particular discussion it seems a bit too strict to be useful.

It's a truism that MOS can't "mandate" anything, of course, but, allowing a certain rhetorical license in the use of the word so that it becomes meaningful to talk about MOS mandating something, the MOS already does mandate LQ, and has for many years. --Pi zero (talk) 22:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that it never happens, Christopher. I certainly hope that there are at least some Wikipedia editors who care enough about proper punctuation to bother to read that part of the MoS! I would say that, given the inconsistency on Wikipedia and the acknowledgment that not all articles are written in compliance with the rule, the case would still be pretty rare.

Pi Zero, I concede that when the conditions you have described are met, LQ conveys the information in question. However, because this does not happen outside of what I'll call "laboratory conditions," it would not be true or accurate to put "LQ preserves text better" in the FAQ. In this case, I'd take "effectively" to refer to something that has an effect, which LQ does not seem to with regard to preserving the text of Wikipedia's articles and sources.

As for the MoS's role, I didn't object when Pi Zero changed "mandate" to "call for" because it is absolutely true that the MoS does call for LQ, but it does also mandate it. The MoS creates the rules for Wikipedia and there are consequences for breaking those rules. Maybe it shouldn't be that way, but, in practice, it is. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:32, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm no fan of the current wording of the FAQ answer, without or without the word "consensus". I remarked somewhat on the wording further down in this section. "Better" meaning "in a more desirable manner", "more successfully", or "more accurately"? I'm not convinced that the wording is informative in a way that will help much in forestalling protracted misunderstandings. I freely admit that so far I don't know how to word it better.

Re the behavior of quotation styles under laboratory conditions (a nice turn of phrase), to be clear, what I'm saying is that LQ under laboratory conditions conveys more information about the source than any other style does under laboratory conditions. That could be taken as the "better=more accurately" sense of the answer. The next question is the nature of the relationship between that phenomenon under controlled conditions, and phenomena under field conditions (the "better=more successfully" sense). --Pi zero (talk) 14:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

A minuscule amount, but yes. However, what the reader is most likely to assume is "under Wikipedia conditions," under which LQ provides no concrete advantage. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

← Richard Feynman once wrote:

In order to save ourselves from inventing new words such as “wavicles,” we have chosen to call these objects “particles,” but we all know that they obey these rules for drawing and combining arrows that I have been explaining.

If we quote this sentence swapping the commas with the closing quotation marks on the ground that the name by which we call those objects doesn't include a comma (following the combination of LQ and the spirit of the "Allowable typographical changes" list), then the sequence of characters we quote does not equal the sequence of characters Feynman chose. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 13:33, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

That's an interesting point, A d M. Frankly, I think that whenever Wikipedia quotes a source, as you have done, internal styles of punctuation should be preserved. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:49, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

It is allowed make trivial typographical changes by any Manual of Style that I know. For instance if I quote "the electron-positron pair was very happy today", it is perfectly reasonable and allowable to quote it as "the electron–positron pair was very happy today". Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 15:49, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I guess it's that I don't consider this to be trivial. I'd put this kind of comma placement on par with spelling "color vs. colour" because it shows something about the author's tastes and origin. I don't get that from hyphens vs. en dashes. Now whether Wikipedia's MoS should reflect these conclusions of mine is another question. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:18, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

A d M's comment has been kicking around in my head for a few days. If the terminal comma or period is so trivial that the MoS would permit moving it even in a direct quote, then why is it so important that we must deny ourselves the professionalism and legitimacy of correct American and British punctuation? Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:41, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog, again, would it be possible for you to move on from this flag-waving nationalism? I have already pointed out that my daily newspaper in Sydney does not properly comply with what you would refer to as non-US external punctuation (and it uses dates like this: October 31, 2003). Why are you obsessed with the notion of etching sharp lines between the post-colonial varieties? Tony (talk) 07:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Tony, I am not waving the American flag or the British flag or the Australian but the correctness and professionalism flag, and have been since day one. LQ cannot provide that for Wikipedia and British and American standards can. No, I don't intend to stop. Even if my above comment—or anything else—were to convince the rest of Wikipedia to prefer standard punctuation to LQ, I would still be saying that the author's original punctuation style should not be considered trivial.

In case you doubt me, please click [here] and note item #1. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

And I actually wouldn't refer to anything as "non-U.S. external punctuation." I call British "British" and American "American." I would hope that an Austrialian newspaper would use correct Australian punctuation. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I can't convince you, but one person is not consensus. Tony agreed with me before when he reverted your change, so there are at least two people here who believe that the FAQ answer should say "This system ..." rather than "Consensus is that this system ..." How does everyone else feel? Ozob (talk) 00:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Keeping the word "consensus" in the text is the most direct answer to the question and directs newcomers to the concept of Wikipedia consensus. Otherwise, people educated in the American system will just think "Well, that's wrong" and keep going. This, at least, will get them to ask "What is a Wikipedia consensus?" or "What do you mean by 'consensus that it preserves text better'?" before going ahead and "correcting" the MoS. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:25, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The objective truth here might or might not be what is being expressed by the current wording of the LQ answer, due to ambiguous possible readings of the word better. The alternative, subjective reading of the answer might induce an allergic reaction in readers. A stopgap measure is to explicitly label the answer as "consensus", but that will not actually enhance understanding of the answer, it will only encapsulate misunderstanding of the answer within a protective shell of awareness-that-others-think-the-statement-is-true (i.e., the reader who misunderstands the answer is also mistaken about what it is that others think is true). I fear that the current LQ answer will not save argument about LQ here, but only further entrench misunderstandings that exacerbate that argument. To accomplish the goal of the FAQ, a different LQ answer is needed; I've had no joy trying to draft one myself, not for want of trying, though I am coming to believe that an effective LQ answer might not even have to try to express the objective truth that the current answer isn't unambiguously expressing. --Pi zero (talk) 04:25, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Considering the dissatisfaction with the FAQ answer in its current state, how do you guys feel about something similar to what we have in the register? It would be longer, but perhaps that would help. "While this is a point of frequent and heated contention on the MoS, there is a current and long-standing consensus for what is called 'logical quotation' or 'datasafe quotes' over both standard American and British English punctuation. While this system more closely resembles British forms than American ones, it does have supporters in the U.S." Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

The FAQ is there to provide guidance about topics that have reached consensus. It is not necessary to state "Consensus is that...", as that is assumed. "...and directs newcomers to the concept of Wikipedia consensus"—it is not the duty of the MOS to educate editors as to WP concepts such as consensus.  HWV258.  05:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that its purpose is to show editors which styles Wikipedia wants them to use. However, the type of editor who might need to look at the FAQ would probably also be the sort who could benefit from a closer look at the Wikipedia concept of consensus.

In this case, we have an added problem. The statement "Consensus is that this system preserves text better is true" but the statement "this system preserves text better" is false. LQ does not actually offer a material advantage over AQ or BQ under ordinary Wikipedia conditions. It's just more popular among Wikipedians than other systems are. We should find a way to explain why LQ is preferred without making any misleading statements. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:58, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that the current wording works either. Would someone please show me a case in which LQ prevents ambiguity when AQ or BQ would not? So far, no one's ever been able to. There have been a few examples in which someone chopped off the second half of a sentence, but in those cases it was always the wording that did the trick. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure that if we put our heads together, we can find something to say about LQ that is both observable and useful. In our discussions, most of LQ's supporters mention that they find LQ to be intuitive and appealing. We could say that. We could also come out and say what we've found above, "Under certain rare conditions, LQ conveys more information than BQ or AQ." Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:57, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

We seem to be struggling mightily to re-invent the wheel, here. Part of the MOS text on LQ, which has been hammered out by consensus — and should be very well-tempered by now, considering how much hammering has been involved — is a statement of motivation. That statement is not explicitly labeled "consensus" in the MOS because one doesn't label things in the MOS as consensus (everything in the MOS is there by consensus), but answers in the FAQ do not seem to have the same sort of presumption of consensus-hood about them: it is clear that opinions in such answers are those of consensus, but in some cases clarity may be well served by identifying certain statements as opinion (though the word "consensus", having been linked in the lede, need not be used in the answers). I recommend the following wording for the FAQ answer, as a full and faithful representation of the consensus motive:

Logical quotation is used by Wikipedia both because of the principle of minimal change, and because it is deemed less prone to misquotation, ambiguity, and the introduction of errors in subsequent editing.

--Pi zero (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

"Deemed" will do. It renders the sentence true rather than false. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:36, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Regarding whether everything in the MoS is there by consensus, a lot of them have observable qualities as well. With the single vs. double quotation issue, we can switch browsers, hit CTRL-F and observe that the problem with single quotes is real. This information is not subject to anyone's preferences or interpretation and makes for a clear, direct FAQ answer. Issues such as LQ and the singular they don't have observable reasons in this way, so the FAQ question "Why is this here?" must acknowledge the role of those preferences and interpretation. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Impending announcement: silliest wikilink of the month awards

Users are advised that His Grace the Duke of Waltham has agreed to be the inaugural judge of the Silliest wikilink of the month awards. There will be five monthly winners (August–December 2009) and an overall winner for 2009.

His Grace will make the announcement at WT:LINK when He is ready. The Duke's private secretary, Harold Cartwright, has emphasised that no correspondence will be entered into regarding the awards: His Grace's decision will be final. Tony (talk) 23:50, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

The announcement has been made here. Tony (talk) 10:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

FAQ answer to why the MoS permits the singular they

[Moved from Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/FAQ Ozob (talk) 04:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)]

I don't feel that this one needs to be here because this issue has only come up once in the past several months—it is not literally a frequently asked question. However, if it is going to be here, I feel that we should change the explanation. Ozob's change description reads that the MoS does permit the singular they and this is true, however "because many writers throughout history have used it" isn't why the MoS permits/shouldn't permit it or anything. We should answer the question being asked. Yes, many writers have used the singular they, but it's about whether or not they were correct to use it. Many of the contributors to the singular they discussion on the MoS have pointed out grammatical rules that make the singular they acceptable in certain cases. We should either summarize these reasons here or Wikilink to an article covering those reasons. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

By "here" I am referring to the MoS FAQ. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:41, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty much indifferent as to the reason given as long as it accurately reflects consensus. When I wrote that sentence it seemed to be an imperfect summary of opinion here, and like everything I put into the FAQ I expected it to need a lot of work before it became tolerable. I don't think it would be a good idea to remove the question entirely, but I'll go along with what others here think. Ozob (talk) 05:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

See, to me that seems to be the point of creating the FAQ: to provide the answers. We should either give the answer to "why," rephrase the question or remove the question. How do you feel about the place-holder text, "The singular they is grammatically correct when used to apply to words that do not have specific objects. (Examples: 'everyone' and 'someone') "? Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's grammatically correct myself, although I just caught myself using it on a talk page, but that's different from whether it's permissible to use it colloquially or as (in many cases) the best of alternatives or on Wikipedia. The usage may be perfectly acceptable, however, just as "It's me" is almost universal in non-pedantic English without being strictly grammatical. This is different from the "none is/none are" question, where (as a lazy non-expert) I've been persuaded that "none" is distinct from "no one" and may guiltlessly take a plural. —— Shakescene (talk) 15:51, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, in modern English the "subjective", or "nominative", form of the personal pronoun is used when it is the subject of an explicit verb. For one reason or another, the issue has become muddied in the case of the first person singular, but would anyone, in answer to the question "Who is that at the door" reply "It's we." or "John called earlier. It must be he again."? Looking at a picture, would anyone say "That's I as a baby."? If nearly everybody's utterances do not agree with a purported rule of grammar, it is probably the rule that is wrong. --Boson (talk) 19:14, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Boson, that sounds like it would be a great contribution to the discussion about the singular they that's going on under "gender-neutral language." However, I feel that we should keep this section dedicated to what the FAQ should say about why the singular they is permitted on Wikipedia. How about "The singular they is common in ordinary speech and has a long history. Many Wikipedians believe that it is not too informal for an encyclopedia"? That's the biggest real reason, anyway. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:01, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

And should that discussion result in a consensus that the singular they is too informal for Wikipedia, the answer would of course be changed or removed. I don't want anything going on down here to imply that what's happening up there isn't the real determinant. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:16, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

There is very clearly no consensus that singular they is not too informal for Wikipedia, and the FAQ should not say there is such a consensus. --Trovatore (talk) 21:48, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, I hadn't noticed that this section was for the FAQ. I see that the section title has now been changed appropriately. The general point raised by Shakescene and taken up by me, namely the issue of strict grammaticality, should perhaps be discussed in relation to the FAQ (though, perhaps, not here). In other words, it might be appropriate to mention the basis of recommendations related to grammar rather than convention. That would also apply to "singular they". --Boson (talk) 07:23, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Above: The usage may be perfectly acceptable, however, just as "It's me" is almost universal in non-pedantic English without being strictly grammatical. When I see this kind of assertion, apparently made in all seriousness, I wonder what the writer means by the word "grammatical". It hardly seems related to work of any value in grammar since Jespersen (if not earlier). May I humbly recommend acquisition of a real grammar book, and consignment to the waste bin of compendia of received ideas on "style"? -- Hoary (talk) 07:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC) ¶ I fear that I may have depended too much on Huddleston and Pullum: new and perhaps newfangled. So how about Henry Sweet? At the start of his New English Grammar (1891), Sweet observes that the rules of grammar have no value except as statements of facts: whatever is in general use in a language is for that very reason grammatically correct. -- Hoary (talk) 10:08, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

• I don't like the way this FAQ is going. It is inappropriate that it be available in its sandbox form at the top of this page. Tony (talk) 22:15, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

  What would you prefer? Ozob (talk) 23:51, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

With the singular they, I would prefer that the question and answer be removed until the current discussion on that matter runs its course. We can certainly talk about what might be best to say in either eventuality in the meantime, though. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:00, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

How many more months can this "discussion" be dragged out, do you suppose? -- Hoary (talk) 07:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

You're free to leave at any time, Hoary. Otherwise you might take note of the fact that the issue is not resolved, and your protestations of disbelief at one side do not constitute an argument. We'll discuss it for as long as it takes. --Trovatore (talk) 09:00, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm awestruck by your stamina, Trovatore. -- Hoary (talk) 10:08, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

These discussions usually take days or weeks Hoary. And Trovatore has a point. If you don't feel like participating in that discussion, you certainly don't have to. I said my piece in there days ago and now I'm letting the others say theirs. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:51, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Right now, AFAICT the MOS never mentions the singular they. This is quite right as there appears to be no consensus either for or against it. (Of course, it should be removed from the FAQ, too.) Also, it is evil to encourage one-size-fits-all solutions so to avoid the need to actually read a sentence in its context and decide which way it actually sounds better and is easier to understand. BTW, the reasons given to avoid ‘, ’, “, and ” would also apply to –, —, and −. And the number of times Geoffrey K. Pullum is named in this page is now likely greater than the total number of times Richard Feynman was named on the FACs for Quark. :-) ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 02:42, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

...are we alright on removing the question and answer until the matter is settled? If no one responds in twenty-four hours, I'll assume so and remove it. If it stays up, though, that line about great English-language writers should be replaced with something that actually answers the question. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:14, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

please do remove it from the FAQ. and since the FAQ is still in rough-draft form i feel it's premature to "announce" it at the top of this page as if it were a polished, authoritative document. can we please move the "announcement"/link from the top of the page for now, until there's been further discussion of the wording and contents of the FAQ? thanks Sssoul (talk) 08:34, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Removed. We can put it back up once the matter runs its course. Any thoughts on what it should say in the meantime? Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:06, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

When "the matter runs its course", I think it will be recognized that there is no consensus that singular they is appropriate to WP. There may not be a consensus that it's inappropriate either (in fact I think that's the most likely outcome, no consensus either way). So probably the best thing is just to leave it out permanently. --Trovatore (talk) 05:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

That does seem the most likely outcome. While I don't feel that the singular they sounds formal enough for an encyclopedia, the others have made some good points. At least radio silence on the issue would prevent any witch hunts. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:06, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

The discussion on the singular they seems to be over. It doesn't seem as though there is a single, clear reason that we could put in the FAQ. I suggest that we leave this issue out of the FAQ until that changes. Thoughts? Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think we should tell people that there is a single, clear reason if that isn't the real rationale. I suggest that the FAQ include a link to the debate(s) (after that debate goes to an archive, if it hasn't already). It would also be helpful to provide a summary of the debate, if we can agree on a summary without provoking a bigger debate. Although admitting that we don't have a monolithic opinion might encourage the peasants to revolt, showing them long debates will prove that anything else they have to say is unlikely to produce any immediate results. Description, not prescription. Art LaPella (talk) 20:12, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that would help. The debates are long and annoying and I don't think the newbs will bother to read them. Furthermore, we shouldn't use the FAQ to manipulate people into thinking that they're not allowed to speak their minds or voice their own opinions. The purpose of the FAQ is to inform and help people, not to get them to shut up.

Secondly, the MoS itself does not say anything one way or the other about the singular they. It's on WP:Gender-neutral language. It would be more appropriate to put any FAQ answer there. As to what that answer is, "We've had lots of talks about it and come to no true conclusion one way or the other" seems to be all that we have to say. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, then say that. "The purpose of the FAQ is to inform and help" to me is a reason to give them the link, and let them decide for themselves if the debates are too long and annoying to read. Art LaPella (talk) 21:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

A link to WP: gender-neutral language? I have zero objection to that. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:14, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't object either, although I meant a link to previous discussion. In general, however much information someone might want, without making them read it all to find out what is available. Art LaPella (talk) 05:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh. Well while I don't think that would mislead anyone about the state of consensus on this issue, that discussion is basically a disorganized screed. And why this discussion rather than past ones? An endorsement of it might do more harm than good. People can always use the search feature if they want to know what discussions we've had in the past. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes it's disorganized, but it's the only direct record of the consensus or lack thereof. As I said, both a link AND a summary would be better, but that would be a much bigger project. I didn't mean this discussion rather than past ones; a list of links would be the natural result of my philosophy. Yes, they could use the search feature, but if they did that they wouldn't need FAQ's, and one would think an FAQ could organize the material better than a search. A search for singular "they", for instance, gives several relevant-looking hits followed by several hits that include "singular" but not "they". Art LaPella (talk) 20:06, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Excellent point. I realize we're supposed to be talking about the FAQ, but how does this sit with you? Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I love it! At least until Noetica pointed out we already have Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory, so I hope that previous work will either be updated or merged with the present effort. It was "sparsely linked to". That sounds easy to fix. Whenever someone re-raises a dead horse issue, someone like me should link them to the appropriate FAQ, Archive Directory or whatever is handy. Actually, while I've been here, I haven't seen any really silly-looking discussions, with the exception of one which I choose not to name, except to say that an FAQ wouldn't help. Art LaPella (talk) 23:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

And remember to update the link to a section on this page; any link to this page will go dead when it's archived. Art LaPella (talk) 23:50, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I plan to watch for the link but thanks anyway. Fingers crossed that this thing helps, but we must remember that just because someone reads the archive or register doesn't mean that they don't still have a right to their say on this page. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:18, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Right, but if they say the same thing that was said 20 times before, I would expect them to have some kind of response to the 20 answers. Art LaPella (talk) 04:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

[←]Art, it was Wavelength who referred us to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory, not me. I proposed the new initiative, and Wavelength immediately took up the baton, making Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register.

Please people: join the discussion and development at this subsection, above. There is a lot of detail to settle, and many variants are possible. Development of this very worthwhile FAQ can continue also, of course. These concrete initiatives are complementary, and promise real solutions. They can eventually have a series of links between them.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

This might be interesting. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 13:55, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The idea that language wouldn't be studied the same way biology or physics is studied makes sense. Language is at least in part an invention and the physical world is not. In many ways it's more like an art form. While I don't agree with the author's main point that this study constitutes a "prescriptivist science" (the scientists are observing and analyzing, not prescribing or proscribing), this article on the cognitive effects of the singular they is interesting. The first study suggests that people think of the singular they differently (and read it faster, which is interpreted as being less jarring) when it applies to "everyone"-type nouns than when it's applied to nouns whose gender is known, but the second study shows that they still read it slower than a pronoun that is both gender- and plural-matched to the noun. This seems to match up with some of the grammatical points that were raised above.

Still, our concern should be whether or not the singular they is correct and formal enough for Wikipedia, and this article doesn't give us anything on that. It deals with how people react, not with what's correct and appears to make no note on formality. Interesting, though. Thanks for showing it to us. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I meant the empirical results might be interesting. (The surrounding discussion happens to be interesting to me, but I do not expect it to be interesting for everybody here.) Anyway, formality isn't the only criterion in deciding which form to use; clarity is at least as important, and the time the reader takes to read and understand a sentence sounds like a reasonable "operative definition" of that. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 19:04, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

It certainly is interesting. And clarity is important. However, I would consider all of the gender-neutral suggestions except the ones for made-up pronouns ("shim"/"svie"/etc) would be sufficiently clear to communicate the intended meaning. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:53, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Video spoof

I posted it over on WT:FAQ and actually meant to post it here as well. A historian friend who knows I am a Wikipedia editor noticed this video spoof, and told me about it. It's about FAC, the MOS and other stuff. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 07:07, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Oh. It's hilarious! Important note: for it to make sense, you need to turn CAPTIONS on. See the bottom right of the video display.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:00, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

There has been an outrageous off-wiki attack of the MoS and FAC processes. I think there's a nasty reference to me, as "that precious little ass-wipe", and I believe there should be an investigation by ArbCom. Does anyone have a tip as to who is responsible? Clearly, it's someone with close knowledge of the MoS, FAC, FLC and ArbCom.

Attack vid

Tony (talk) 05:16, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Tony, I am surprised at your characterization of this rare and thus valuable piece of documentary evidence as "outrageous". For me, I am happy at last to see the faces of The Cabal. And although their tastes in insignia and clothing may differ from mine, how much they resemble me! As just another precious little ass-wipe, I enjoyed watching this. And now, let me use an en dash (freshly retrieved from safe storage): – Hoary (talk) 05:38, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

It was Hitler, Tony! He's trying to get people to ignore good punctuation from beyond the grave! Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh noes! Whatever shall we do? I suggest laughing, and moving on. Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 06:36, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 15:59, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Hoary, no! The dog's bollocks! :-) ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 21:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Godwin's law applies. Whoever made that video lost. :-) ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 21:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Why? Tony (talk) 21:28, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

See the second sentence of Godwin's law#Corollaries and usage. (I had added a similar sentence to the lead of that article, but it was since removed.) ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 21:42, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Confession here. Tony (talk) 22:10, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

While I write this real policy rulers seek structure for content, content from the syntax level upward, and content from category of categories downward into some as yet undiscovered structure. This troll seems to be missing a metaphor: genetics are syntax. — CpiralCpiral 20:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

English, please. Tony (talk) 01:28, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Defining consensus

The following question is from Noetica's contribution at 09:16, 31 December 2009, under the subheading "Proposal to defer discussion of dashes".

• How are we to define consensus, for the crucial work that MOS performs within the Project?
  

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:34, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

The way the policy WP:Consensus says. Maybe that's not ideal, but if so, it should be discussed there; having each sector of Wikipedia able to define its own definition of "consensus" is going to be too confusing. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 19:38, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the method we use to achieve consensus here should reflect general policy. Wikipedia:Consensus doesn't formally define consensus as a single short phrase, but the overall definition is pretty clear in Wikipedia:Consensus #What consensus is. Eubulides (talk) 21:56, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Wavelength, for giving these pressing questions greater prominence.

A di M and Eubulides, I will focus on your responses, not on you personally. Those pusillanimous, reflexive, and impulsive responses are exactly what we don't need. Issues are sometimes raised here that tower above the samsaric wasteland of ordinary MOS wrangles – the ceaseless churn of old and unresolved disputations. When that happens, passing the buck to some other forum cuts short moves that are valuable, bold, and reformative. Those responses of yours ignore salient facts, some of which Wavelength and I have already plainly set out for you:

• WP:Consensus does not define consensus tout court, let alone consensus for our specialised work at MOS.
• Our work is indeed unique within the Project, and its special requirements call for sustained discussion.
• The lack of a working, operational definition of consensus for these MOS pages entrains chaos, and ruinous waste of talent, time, and energy.

Now, I agree that ultimately such issues concerning MOS should be taken up elsewhere. (I have often said that, though no one listened.) But we are the ones at the core of this work, and we must develop thoughts here first. If the policy enthusiasts at WT:Consensus have lacked the vision to take this on, we must, here – at least in a preliminary and pioneering way. Who will, if not us?

Sure, dabble in dashes and apostrophes now, if you like. No matter how well you work such detail (or think you do, in a way uninformed by MOS precedent, unique WP needs, or sound surveys of printed guides), your work will be eroded by incompetence and inattention later – unless a number of us raise our heads to contemplate the big picture. And act on what we see.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:30, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Remember someone like me, (presumably) still trapped in Plato's Cave, thinks I'm the one acting on what I see. Art LaPella (talk) 23:09, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

There are areas of Wikipedia which are even more critical than the MoS for the encyclopaedia (think about WT:OR, for example); but I still don't think that the definition of consensus should explicitly differentiate between venues. (Sure, discussions affecting 100,000 articles need more attention than ones affecting 5, but that's true regardless of where they are conducted.) ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 15:38, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with A di M that this page, like all others, is governed by WP:Consensus. This gives quite a bit of flexibility to establish different forms of discussion, but discussions concerning the MOS should follow the standard protocols. This is critical if MOS is to continue to invite wide discussion from all members of the community, both experienced and unexperienced in discussions on this page. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:12, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree generally with that also, CP. But where standard protocols and definitions are deficient, they need supplementing. (See how things are adapted for local needs at WP:RFA, WP:RFC, WP:FAC, for prominent examples.) I certainly would not advocate reforms that put editors off contributing to discussions here. But look at the present situation! Hardly inviting. Many good and wise editors refuse to dip a toe in WT:MOS's turbid waters at all; some that do will have a quick say, and then withdraw totally daunted.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:23, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with A d M. The WP: Consensus talk page seems to be a better place to discuss this matter than the MoS talk page. (Which certainly doesn't mean that we can't go over there and have about the same discussion ourselves.) If anything, our purview is to discuss the way in which the consensus described at WP:Consensus affects the MoS particularly. For example, the MoS is a policy and guideline page, so the higher standard would apply. However, it is correct that this page does not define consensus, and if that presents a problem for us, then we're within our rights to make that known. The WP: Consensus talk page seems to be the best place to do that.

That being said, I read—in WP:Vote, I think—that consensus is not formed by voting but rather by the preponderance of logical arguments on one side or the other. I like this idea very much, but I have noticed that it does not usually happen in practice. Namely, when one side has logic but not numbers, there's no way to enforce things. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Scratching hard for something to agree with in what you say, Darkfrog, I find this: "... consensus is not formed by voting but rather by the preponderance of logical arguments on one side or the other. I like this idea very much, but I have noticed that it does not usually happen in practice." Consider the inept non-consensual responses to all the hard argument, evidence, and shrewd compromising I brought to our discussions of possessives (see here and several other places in Archive 108). The result is a confusing kludge of a guideline for possessives, that effectively fails to guide, and reflects little of the broad sway of opinion in respected printed guides or in sound editorial practice. A blight on MOS!

Therefore, new thinking is needed. Therefore, banging the usual old gongs with the usual links enshrining the usual incomplete policies and guidelines is simply not good enough.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:47, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

The MOS has a serious repetitive argument problem, and I think the FAQ will help. But I don't see how redefining a consensus will help. What did you have in mind? Experts only, as in Citizendium? I can't imagine the rest of Wikipedia agreeing to an exception for the MOS only. Another "motherhood" resolution like WP:BATTLEGROUND? Wikipedia is awash in such platitudes, and bad guys routinely argue that those who oppose their megalomania are turning Wikipedia into a battleground. More likely, such a statement would simply add to our archive. Art LaPella (talk) 03:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

What did who have in mind, Art? I for one am not after "motherhood" statements. I wrote (in this very section): "The lack of a working, operational definition of consensus for these MOS pages entrains chaos, and ruinous waste of talent, time, and energy." By operational definition I mean something concrete, practical, and applied, not fluffy abstract sentiment. We need explicit criteria for consensus here at MOS. We all agree, don't we, that discussion here is usually not settled, usually ill-conducted, and often vituperative. Above all, it is repetitive, since we do not learn from our own history. The goal of discussion here is to achieve stable resolutions that reflect consensus, so that MOS can serve the Community more effectively. We cannot do this while what we mean by the word consensus is unclear. WP:CONSENSUS gives limited guidance. We should follow it, since it is policy. But we need to fill out details that will work for MOS: an important corner of the Project that differs from any other corner. What we have now doesn't work, so we should look at fixing it. Reflex appeals to less focused deliberations in other corners of Wikipedia are themselves platitudinous.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:17, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Now there's something we should keep in mind. You see, what we have now does work. It can be inefficient and annoying, but it has actually allowed for the creation of a pretty good and beautifully organized MoS. I see absolutely no harm in tossing some ideas around and seeing if we can come up with a better way of doing things, but we should not assume that anything we come up with will automatically be better than what we've got. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:06, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes it works, while remembering that the MoS is notorious for silly-sounding arguments, as Noetica just emphasized. "What did who have in mind"? I meant Noetica, who I believe is the only one urging a redefinition of consensus as a solution; my statement was that FAQs would help, but redefining consensus in any conceivable way wouldn't help. Noetica quotes himself or herself (sie-self? they? ...) as emphasizing the need for "a working, operational definition of consensus", which I realized; but he or she didn't suggest such a definition, and I can't think of a helpful redefinition. I suggested some possibilities, and described why I think they would be unhelpful. So I can't imagine what else I could contribute to this section. Art LaPella (talk) 03:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog: Of course what we have works, in a limited generically determined way. Is that a reason to settle for something short of the highest quality? No one knows MOS better than those of us who mop up messes others have left in it, gritting our teeth over the shortcomings in its contents. We have a better idea what needs fixing, and how, than any drive-by nay-sayers. Of course we can't just assume that a change in our methods will bring improvement! What such changes might be, and their competing merits, are exactly the topic here. I have made a similar point about changes of content. There, the interested parties currently assembled can't know what's better if they haven't learned the history.

Art: First, I am not asking for a redefinition, but a definition of consensus. Wikipedia doesn't have one, as we have seen – let alone one fitted with criteria and adapted for MOS development. (I shouldn't have to repeat this! Please pay attention.) Second, Wavelength also appears to be pushing to examine these issues, and others are joining in. Attempting to marginalise me as a lone voice is not productive. Even if I were that, my voice might still be judged worth listening to. No one here knows MOS, and major and minor printed guides, better than I do. (I point this out with confidence, as demonstrably true and highly relevant to the action we are engaged in right now.) Third, anything of substance that you have contributed in this section will be duly noted; if you truly feel you have nothing more to say, then say nothing rather than resort to negativity. There is enough entrenched negativity here without your adding to it.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 05:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

OK. Responding to the above probably wouldn't be helpful anyway. Art LaPella (talk) 05:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• Can someone set out here, briefly, how the proposed consensus process would differ from consensus elsewhere on WP? Tony (talk) 22:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes Tony, I can explain for you.

Q: How would the proposed consensus process differ from consensus elsewhere on WP?

A: In these four ways:

1. Consensus for our MOS work would be defined.
Consensus on Wikipedia generally is not fully defined, as discussion at WP:Consensus demonstrates.

2. The criteria for consensus would be fitted to the needs of MOS.
MOS calls for greater care in its construction and maintenance than particular articles. After all, the purpose of MOS is to support three million articles on English Wikipedia – their integrity, quality, and stability.

3. Consensus for MOS work would be like consensus elsewhere on Wikipedia, but operationalised and made practical by those who do and understand that MOS work – subject to community review, as with all moves of this sort.
What incomplete guidelines we have for consensus do not consider this important role that MOS plays. Therefore we editors who serve the Project by developing and maintaining MOS are entitled to make good the deficiency. We are entitled to be bold in this initiative; that's how Wikipedia works. Other areas of Wikipedia that serve special functions have their own tailored protocols, including a local appreciation of what will count as a consensus. It's about time we achieved that, too.

4. Consensus for MOS work would have other features that are so far unknown, until we do that big-picture development work.
The task still lies ahead of us. See other other sections devoted to this work.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 09:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

3 gives me cause for concern. Minimalizing the contributions of newcomers would be counter to Wikipedia's spirit and interests. A big part in the decline in the number of Wikipedia editors is the difficulty of dealing with the bureaucracy. We should be trying to find a way that values expertise over good-natured amateurism without preventing good-natured amateurs from coming in and becoming experts. #4 I support wholeheartedly, though. It's good to know that we don't know all of what we're getting into—and that we don't need to. Darkfrog24 (talk) 15:45, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

"After all, the purpose of MOS is to support three million articles on English Wikipedia – their integrity, quality, and stability." But that also applies to WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:V, yadda yadda yadda. The reasons why the MOS should use a different standard for consensus than all other guidelines are still beyond me. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 16:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog: [Please use the review feature before posting. I have boldly removed the "#" at the start of your post. It was parsed as the start of a numeric listing.] I don't see any reason for concern about my point 3, which is not about minimising the contributions of newcomers in any way. It is limited, remember, to finding a practical working definition to make development of MOS manageable. A clearly stated consensus about consensus must welcome newcomers, rather than repel them. How many editors take one look at this notorious talkpage as it is, with its Byzantine backlog of poorly conducted disputations, and scurry away in fright? Think about it!

A di M: You mention WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:V, but each of those concerns only one isolated feature of policy. You don't see a proliferation of guides to NPOV in print or on the web, do you? For good reason. The evolving body of guidelines in MOS is far more complex than any one of those policies. Its many recommendations apply to the text, markup, and styling detail of three million articles. Its hundreds of distinct provisions are under scrutiny and challenge in a way that can have consequences well beyond what is easily foreseen. The whole MOS process is more like choosing admins, or featured articles. These are weighty and complex matters: we live ever after with the admins we select, and featured articles are what we present to the world as our best work. Therefore, selection of admins and selection of featured articles involve special, customised procedures. Everyone accepts this fact; and no one is excluded by those procedures. Our work, affecting three million articles in detail, is important too. It warrants specially adapted procedures, as argued in detail in this section and others. A di M, you write: "The reasons why the MOS should use a different standard for consensus than all other guidelines are still beyond me." As Bertrand Russell replied to someone making such an objection to him, that inability isn't my responsibility! With respect: if the reasons I set out are beyond you, read again (more studiously), think again (more reflectively), and consider my detailed responses (more attentively). I look forward to us moving beyond flat incomprehension and getting down to concrete progress.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 18:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't know how many editors look at this talk page and run off. Frankly, I don't see how anyone would know that. This talk page doesn't look much different from other talk pages to me. And minimalizing the effects of newcomers might not be the purpose of these changes, but it does seem to be a likely side effect and we should watch out for it.

I agree that the MoS is different from WP:NOR et al and that it is acceptable that the process for improving it be different. Those policies are more "what to do" and the MoS is more "how to do it." Also WP:NOR and company are 1. much easier to understand and 2. much more essential to Wikipedia's mission. The MoS is here to facilitate and serve those other policies. With regard to defining consensus, I would absolutely not do anything that conflicts with WP:Consensus or that gives the MoS special status that does not reflect its role but that role is not the same as the role of WP:V, WP:NPOV, etc. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog, thank you for seeing my point about the special role of MOS, which is however not merely to serve NPOV and other policies, but to provide specific style guidance, potentially for three million articles. No one is proposing that MOS procedures should transgress policy such as WP:Consensus. WP:FAC and WP:RFC don't do that, with their local procedures and elaborations of policy. We too would simply fill in the details, suitably for our specialised work. For the tenth time, WP:Consensus does not even define consensus. But we must, if we are to rise to the challenges that face MOS. As for newcomers, you assert but do not show that they are at risk of feeling unwelcome, simply by our getting clear about what counts as a MOS consensus. A vague fear to harbour, surely! I can assure you, from the evidence in ArbCom actions, from private conversations with editors who stay away from here, and from the reputation this forum has on other WP forums, that many are appalled by its complexity, sprawl, and unending wrangling. Carefully planned remedies can hardly make that situation worse.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 20:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

And WP:NOR etc. decide what to include in articles in the first place, so they are arguably even more fundamental than WP:MOS. Compared with that, issues such as whether to space or not an en dash are utterly trivial. Surely, when whatever guideline was changed so that now we don't allow articles for most individual Pokémon species, far more readers noticed that than they would if we subtly changed the wording about some obscure point of style in a way unlikely to affect more than ten articles or so. (And responding to your Russell quote, many other people, such as Richard Feynman/Albert Einstein/Ernest Rutherford/someone else I don't remember, said that if you cannot explain something to a freshman/your grandmother/a bartender/a four-year-old child (respectively), then you haven't understood it yourself.) ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 20:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

A di M: who denies that those distinct and really rather simple policies are more fundamental? I don't! But I have already explained (and you have not grasped) how MOS differs from those policies, yet has its own crucial role, and manifestly needs to come to terms with procedural matters of its own. Like defining what will count as consensus, in an arena where dozens of matters are perpetually and concurrently contested. I agree with you that, compared with the need for neutral point of view, spacing of en dashes appears trivial. But magnified by 3,000,000 it is not trivial; and when we consider all of the small details (and some large) that MOS covers, you can multiply by another couple of hundred. Even if some small component of MOS were found to be genuinely and utterly trivial, that has little bearing on the importance of MOS as a whole; see Fallacy of composition. As for your response to my point about Russell: I can easily explain to a child or a bartender why we need to define our terms, and why an obviously broken system needs to be fixed. I just can't get it through to people with complex commitments and agendas of their own. Do you truly think that I don't understand the issues on which I typically expatiate at this talkpage, with point after detailed point, and argument after articulated argument, and backup from a wealth of sources? Show me evidence that I do not understand, and I promise I will learn from it.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 21:02, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

But it isn't the only "arena where dozens of matters are perpetually and concurrently contested". Only two of the items at WP:PEREN have to do with the MOS or subpages thereof. Not that I think that the current content of WP:CONSENSUS is perfect and should be carved in stone, but if we want to think about having (e.g.) a more explicit definition, thinking about one which would apply everywhere on Wikipedia (but possibly acknowledging the fact that something affecting 10,000 articles needs more consideration than something affecting 10, and other such subtleties) would be more useful. But having another unique formal process to propose changes to the MoS like the one we have now for nominating admins would be contrary to the spirit of WP:NOT BURO, I think. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 22:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog24 said, at 19:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC): "I wouldn't know how many editors look at this talk page and run off." This page has 1152 watchers. At this moment, this page has been viewed 1503 times in January 2010. You can edit the year and month in the address bar to see the data for previous months. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Cool. Is there any way to see how many people decide not to participate? Is there a way to compare this page's "looked but didn't touch" rate to that of other pages? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

This page lists "Most viewed articles in 200808" (1000 pages) with "Page views" beside each entry. Besides that, for any page of your choice, you can click on "history" and then click on "Page view statistics" to see a chart of page views for the current month. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:39, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

If you click on "history" and then click on "Revision history statistics", you can see this resource, which lists 2005 editors who have ever edited this discussion page. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:38, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

This discussion page is linked to from the following external pages.

• Neil Gaiman's Journal: January 2005 (linked to from one of the first few paragraphs)
• A cure for gigazillion account syndrome - YGingras.net (linked to from "give their opinion")
• Linguistic Obsession: Possessives of words ending in 's'
• Web Design: Rules to Code By (linked to from near top of page)
• 2007-10-02 Swhack IRC Log (linked to from entry at "08:10:29")
• diy grammar and style (linked to from second last section)
• Ask A Word (linked to from near top of page)

-- Wavelength (talk) 23:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

See this post about the nature of this discussion page. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

NIEL GAIMAN LOOKED AT US!! Holy crud! Thanks for posting these, Wavelength. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog24 said, at 15:45, 9 January 2010 (UTC): "3 gives me cause for concern. Minimalizing the contributions of newcomers would be counter to Wikipedia's spirit and interests. A big part in the decline in the number of Wikipedia editors is the difficulty of dealing with the bureaucracy." Noetica's third point does not involve minimalizing the contributions of newcomers. A clear definition of consensus and a simplified process would invite newcomers. The point is about increasing stability and usability and decreasing the waste of talent, time, and energy. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:09, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Simpler? Yes, a simpler system would be better for newcomers. However, I have been figuring that any system that we come up with would necessarily be more complicated than our current method. Mucking about until everything winds down might not be the best way to do things, but it's hard to get simpler than that. I'd be delighted to hear what you have in mind. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:51, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

According to Wiktionary, muck about means "To do random unplanned work or spend time idly". You give the impression that you have never known the joy of self-discipline. To such a person, I would not want to be either an employer or a customer, which are essentially the same thing. In our situation here, we are volunteer colleagues.

I understand that public schools provide to many people their first experiences of academic study. Students are told who teaches whom and with whom, who learns from whom, what is taught and learned, when and where, how, and even why. The system has many flaws, and many students graduate from high school (or leave before high school graduation) with a sense of "Good riddance!" and a stereotypical negative view of study. The tendency is toward aliteracy and away from autodidactism. Everyone should be involved in lifelong learning.

Wikipedia is open to contributions from almost everyone, including people who are lacking in expertise. One hopes (or, at least, I hope) that non-experts would be motivated to gain expertise in one or more areas from people who have more expertise. Unfortunately, a lack of expertise is often found together with a lack of motivation to learn.

Organization does not need to be difficult, just as marching in formation does not need to be more tiring than walking. (Marching in lockstep can cause a bridge to collapse, and sometimes marchers are advised to break step when crossing bridges, but I do not know of an analog in discussions about consensus.)

You said that you would be "delighted to hear what [I] have in mind", but I am waiting with Noetica as we "continue discussion in these four sections before progressing differently." I am hoping to explain some details in a new section, but maybe Noetica is waiting for more expressions of interest (support?) before that happens, and maybe you are waiting for more details before expressing (more?) interest. There might be a dilemma of priorities here.

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Quite the contrary, Wavelength. It is because I have known more disciplined systems that I am able to tell the difference. Usually, creating such a system does involve something more complicated than random, unplanned work such as we do here—not that it is always so very much so. And let's not characterize public schools as slackhouses. I went to an excellent one.

Noetica, if you are waiting for more expressions of interest, then here you are: two people waiting to hear it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Re. the people who just muck around, they appear to be the ones which do most of the actual work. See http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/whowriteswikipedia. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 13:40, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Fascinating. Do you know when this was written? Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

It is dated September 4, 2006 (immediately above the comments). Things might have somewhat changed meanwhile, but I don't think it's likely that the situation changed radically. I'll dig into Category:Wikipedia statistics when I have time to see whether there are more recent data about that. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 15:52, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

This section is already long. Please see #Proposed consensus process. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:51, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Wavelength, you know I have the greatest respect for your initiatives on this page. But I cannot think that directing attention away from this section (devoted to one of four related questions) is a sound move. The intent of the new section was unclear, and I thought it would fragment discussion, so I deleted it. You are entitled restore it, of course; but I advise against doing so at this stage. I hope we can continue discussion in these four sections for a little longer before progressing differently.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 10:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Noetica, I understand your thinking and I respect what you did, but sometimes these long discussions become complicated when I wish to post a belated comment in response to a comment farther up in the discussion, and I need to decide what is the best place in the discussion in which to add my comment. Another alternative (for either of us) would have been the adding of a subheading immediately above Tony's question. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:18, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Wavelength, I propose that for now we stick with these four sections for four questions, without subsections. I understand your suggestion, but I think we should keep the structure as loose and open as it is, just for a little longer. Let's see what further generalities and inevitable doubts are voiced; then we can make a more practical push in a new thread, having harvested what substance we can from these four.

Darkfrog, you may well be waiting for something concrete to happen. I wonder, though, how open and constructive your response will be when that happens. Don't expect me or Wavelength to deliver a fully formed programme with which to continue, for others to tear away at. We have solicited urgently needed new ideas, not promised them. It is true: if there is enough interest and good will, I might come forward with proposed definitions, and sketch possible procedures for working with consensus. Better if the next moves were not mine though, don't you think? Similarly, the ever-resourceful Wavelength might prefer to see others take the initiative, too. The FAQ has been a worthwhile idea; let's hope for more like that.

Another consideration affecting my involvement: I will soon be genuinely less able to continue here at MOS, or even at Wikipedia. I have other things to attend to in life (as we are are pleased to call it), and in about a week these will take over most of my time.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 03:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Usually, not all the time, but usually, when someone raises an issue or points out a problem, it is because he or she has an idea of how it ought to be solved. Is this the case with you or do you just want to brainstorm a bit?

I can appreciate how you might not want to look like you're bossing people around by jumping in with a big ready-made plan, but as far as reactions go, I'm pretty sure that the MoS crowd has done what it's going to do with what it's been shown already.

Congratulations on what I hope is a good real life development. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:53, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog: I have wanted brainstorming, but I also could come up with something more concrete of my own, if there where enough interest. In fact, I now think I will not do so. The FAQ discussion at least promises to be fruitful, and will engender more thoughts about a working definition, with criteria – the twig we need to graft onto the WP:Consensus rootstock. Let's not ignore WP:PG either; it too gives us bearings by which to find a particular path. And these present four inchoate discussions, of four questions that I posed earlier, might also quietly prime awareness toward future action.

Now, you say: "I'm pretty sure that the MoS crowd has done what it's going to do with what it's been shown already." Such a leaden, inertial observation is all too typical, Darkfrog. Your show of a lack of positive interest is not so much a commentary on trends on this talkpage as constitutive of them.

Finally, I reveal very little about myself beyond what is needed here at MOS, to explain absences or to back up initiatives that I take here. While your last remark is well-meant, it is awkward for me and does not touch accurately on anything real for me.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I do not mean to make you feel uncomfortable, Noetica. That is why I did not ask you what your RL developments were and merely expressed my hopes that things are going well for you. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:17, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

After taking a break from this page I just now reread the last week's worth of comments in this thread, along with the other threads devoted to consensus-related issues. The bottom line seems to be that although there is some dissatisfaction with the lack of definition of consensus, specific changes to this situation have not been proposed and are unlikely to be proposed soon. Eubulides (talk) 02:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah, such a crisp and well-pointed irony must not go unremarked. You take a break from this page, and then come back to observe that nothing specific has been proposed? So, um ... clearly you haven't contributed a lot of effort, have you?

Look, some of us do get down to nitty-gritty specific reforms; some never do, and some of these latter have little to say beyond "it'll never fly". Shakespeare's oversimplification may be apt in this case: thinking makes it so. Why are MOS people so pervasively reactive, and unwilling to contemplate or develop procedures for their special endeavour within the Project? An interesting socio-psychological question (to me, anyway).

Eubulides, reflect on how euboulia cannot flourish if it is strangled by the weeds of aboulia.

Meanwhile, you forget the FAQ initiative. Don't, please.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 02:48, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I was looking at the FAQ as something separate from the consensus thing. But no, no one has given voice to any serious specific ideas so far. The one that I mentioned is, I feel, too limited in scope for practical use at this time. And what I mean by "the crowd has done what it's going to do," Noetica, is that if you do have an idea and you're just waiting for everyone to jump and cheer and beg you to tell them what it is, please stop waiting because it's probably not going to happen. But people have shown that they're willing to hear you out and view what you say seriously. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Defining consensus: the next stage

Discussion in three sections on consensus (#Achieving consensus and #Lapses in consensus; and the present section, #Defining consensus) has advanced less than discussion in #Recording consensus. This is understandable, since recording deliberations and decisions is a practical matter, where something can be done even without the nature of MOS consensus being defined or stipulated.

I now propose that we concentrate effort on the two initiatives to record consensus:

• The FAQ (see #Manual of Style FAQ), which explains some things for newcomers to this talkpage.
• The MOS Register (see #Revisiting my concrete proposal), which is being developed as a comprehensive resource for MOS editors in particular. It will record the state of play for sections of MOS, especially the more sensitive ones.

I seems to me that these two efforts at recording are useful in themselves; but they might also generate material for our eventual return to the other questions: how to define and achieve consensus at MOS, and how to know when a MOS consensus is lapsed or superseded.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:26, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Achieving consensus

The following question is from Noetica's contribution at 09:16, 31 December 2009, under the subheading "Proposal to defer discussion of dashes".

• How is a MOS consensus to be achieved?
  

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:34, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Consensus #Consensus-building gives methods for achieving consensus. I don't offhand see how the MoS consensus-building procedure should differ greatly from that of other pages, some of which are far more contentious than this one. Eubulides (talk) 21:56, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Quite so, Eubulides: you "don't offhand see". But do you think Wavelength and I raise these questions for your dismissive "offhand" consideration? Do you think we are trivia buffs, seeking to divert a jaded MOS crowd with yet more platitudinous grist for chummy chatter? No. Wavelength is a meticulous and tireless worker for MOS, and a legend inspiring awe at the Language reference desk. Sometimes, just sometimes, we need to move beyond "offhand" treatment of issues from such knowledgeable sources. Don't squelch big initiatives on sight.

There are reasons for consensus-building at MOS to be especially problematic. Don't automatically assume you know otherwise, please. Others may have longer and deeper experience.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:45, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Eubulides meant to sound dismissive, Noetica. Rather I think it was a sideways invitation for you to explain yourself further. What do you feel that the MoS specifically needs with regard to methods of achieving consensus? Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:37, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Having a method would be a good start, don't you think?

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:50, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

First off, let's not knock the random mucking about that we've been doing up until this point. It's counterintuitive, but it does manage to work well enough enough of the time. That being said, having a fair, formal and reliable method of reaching consensus (preferably one that supports the ideas with the preponderance of logic rather than the ones with the preponderance of adherents) would be great, but I have my doubts about whether or not we'll be able to make one. No reason not to try, I guess. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

... WP:Consensus seems to imply that if an idea is compellingly good, it will gain adherents; it's not that numbers of votes are what "counts", but numbers do reflect which ideas people find more compelling. what other means of determining consensus might be used? a neutral third party being called on to declare which "side" seems more reasonable, for example? i doubt that would fly. so what would?

meanwhile, i'd like to ask Noetica to stop categorizing views that differ from his/her own as "inept", "puerile" "jejune", etc. it discourages participation in the discussion, and makes it difficult to see the possible merits of what he/she is proposing. thanks Sssoul (talk) 11:57, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't find that to be the case. Large numbers of adherents mean that an idea is popular, not that it's good or right or effective.

I was turning over Noetica's comments in my mind last night and I thought "Wouldn't it be great if there were some way to separate what people are saying from who's saying it?" That way people wouldn't form factions or develop dislike for a decent idea just because the person who said it has been annoying or has disagreed with the reader in past discussions (or perhaps called people ignorant and peurile). Then I got this idea of two columns of text, one with arguments for an idea and one with arguments against an idea. Any editor could add a point, but no repeats would be allowed.

Of course, that would only work with either/or issues and there would have to be a way of measuring the quality of each logical argument so that many picayune issues didn't outweigh one or a few profound ones. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:33, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on the optimistic assumption that whatever is good will normally also be popular. All crowd-sourced initiatives depend in some way on this belief that humans are fundamentally good, that we would rather build than destroy, etc. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

[←]Darkfrog: Thank for allowing that we have "no reason not to try", and for thinking about what I have raised and joining in the search for solutions. You write earlier: "... let's not knock the random mucking about that we've been doing up until this point. It's counterintuitive, but it does manage to work well enough enough of the time." The positive reason we have for trying is that the default "random mucking about" reaches a plateau in quality (and stability), beyond which we cannot progress. The problem is especially acute here at WT:MOS, because MOS needs to be especially enlightened, consistent, and stable to serve its very purpose. Other areas of Wikipedia have their tailored protocols for deliberating, because of their heightened importance. But MOS has so far not received this attention. Let's give it now, and wallow no longer in wasteful uncertainties.

Sssoul, you write: "meanwhile, i'd like to ask Noetica to stop categorizing views that differ from his/her own as 'inept', 'puerile', etc. it discourages participation in the discussion, and makes it difficult to see the possible merits of what he/she is proposing. thanks." let me resort in my reply to a hybrid joycean style that might make some sense to you since i have never yet succeeded in communicating content simple or complex to you by other means nor have you ever it seems found merit in anything of consequence that i have said anyway i look in vain on the present page for the word puerile indeed i seem not to have used it here since sometime in 2008 so i am not doing it here am i as for inept yes on this page i use it once here this is wasteful and inept we desperately need better methods and once yes referring to inept non consensual responses to all the hard argument evidence and shrewd compromising I brought to our discussions of possessives well that is not personal is it or if it is the evidence is there for anyone to examine to see how utterly obtuse was the response to all the analysis i presented so that you yes ruined a guideline that had excellent claim to being consensual and that corrupted guideline still mars mos utterly obtuse oops o so sorry Yes.

Whatamidoing, you write: "Wikipedia is based on the optimistic assumption that whatever is good will normally also be popular." But a naive application of that assumption is overridden for many parts of the Project. If we respect that assumption here, our application must similarly not be naive. MOS cannot rise to the excellence Wikipedia demands of it without more examined procedures in place.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:58, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

right, it was "jejune" this time, not "puerile" – i've corrected that. my request still stands: please stop the negative categorizations of views that differ from yours; and please drop the "hybrid joycean style" as well. neither is constructive.

this discussion is supposed to be about possible approaches to achieving consensus for MoS purposes. do you have some specific solutions to propose for the problem you perceive? Sssoul (talk) 10:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Sssoul:

• Thank you for correcting puerile to jejune. Yes, this is a word I used here recently. It does not originally mean the same as puerile, though its resemblance to French jeune ("young") has lent it that secondary sense. After "undernourished", its primary meaning according to SOED is this: "Intellectually unsatisfying, lacking substance, shallow, simplistic; dull, dry, insipid, vapid." I wrote:

Meanwhile, many of the editors whose needs we pretend to serve abandon MOS as useless. We come across as a bunch of jejune amateurs. (Well, some of us are!) Take a look at our Archive 108, where a number of perennial favourites are churned through for the zillionth fruitless time.

I called it as I saw it. If this offends you, that is not my main concern. My main concern is to address deficiencies in MOS systems.

• I do not automatically characterise views that differ from mine negatively; I explain my point of view patiently and in detail, and I answer any questions. I expect the same from others. If they do not do their share, and their opinions do not withstand rational scrutiny, then I have something to say concerning them. Find evidence for this in Archive 108.
• I had a dialogical reason for using the Joycean hybrid style. Sorry if you dislike it, as intensely as others may dislike your own anomalous style. I won't if you won't. How's that for a compromise?
• Don't lecture me about being constructive. See Archive 108, once more. And where are your dozens and dozens of acknowledged improvements to MOS, fixing the carelessness of others? Where is your long patient discussion towards consensus, on anything at all; and your minute analysis of printed guides relevant to our work here?
• I hope we can move on to specifics, when the predictable backwash that greets most constructive calls for change to our work at last subsides.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 12:14, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Achieving consensus: the next stage

Discussion in three sections on consensus (#Defining consensus and #Lapses in consensus; and the present section, #Achieving consensus) has advanced less than discussion in #Recording consensus. This is understandable, since recording deliberations and decisions is a practical matter, where something can be done even without the nature of MOS consensus being defined or stipulated.

I now propose that we concentrate effort on the two initiatives to record consensus:

• The FAQ (see #Manual of Style FAQ), which explains some things for newcomers to this talkpage.
• The MOS Register (see #Revisiting my concrete proposal), which is being developed as a comprehensive resource for MOS editors in particular. It will record the state of play for sections of MOS, especially the more sensitive ones.

I seems to me that these two efforts at recording are useful in themselves; but they might also generate material for our eventual return to the other questions: how to define and achieve consensus at MOS, and how to know when a MOS consensus is lapsed or superseded.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Good idea, Noetica. Tony (talk) 22:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Recording consensus

The following question is from Noetica's contribution at 09:16, 31 December 2009, under the subheading "Proposal to defer discussion of dashes".

• How is a MOS consensus to be recorded, for all editors to see?
  

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:34, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Great to see the work editors are doing towards an FAQ. That, at least, is something concrete and positive. It may be a partial solution of the problem – but substantial, all the same. We can also get more creative. Why not a dedicated supplementary page for MOS, replicating the structure of WP:MOS itself but with each section's content replaced by synoptic explanations of the relevant MOS content, and links to archived consensual discussions? Every section of WP:MOS, and some subsections, could have a discreet unobtrusive link to that supplementary page, for the use of MOS editors and other enquirers. Why not? This would provide means of stabilising MOS, identifying topics that need further treatment, and informing all future discussion on this talkpage. The same could be done for all associated pages forming part of the Manual of Style. (And indeed, the relations between all these pages still needs more examination and reform.)

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:13, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Linking each section to a page with more explanation is indeed what we should be doing, as explained at WP:Summary style. But you already have such a structure, and you aren't using it! The MOS is full of links to sub-articles like WP:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Units of measurement, but the sub-articles aren't much longer than what they are supposed to be explaining. Most of the details of the MOS should be eliminated, leaving a summary of the important rules, and links to the details we have now. If a sub-article isn't several times longer than what it's explaining, it isn't worth sending the reader through an extra link; we should just merge. WP:Did you know/Learning DYK and its submenus demonstrate how I think technical information should be presented, at whatever level of complexity the reader is ready to read. I also like Wikipedia:Introduction.

Yes, the FAQ in whatever form should link to previous discussions, if only to make it clear to each newcomer that he won't be greeted like Thomas Edison and his new light bulb. Here are some essays I wrote to answer repetitive questions: User:Art LaPella/Long hook and User:Art LaPella/Is this criticism constructive? Art LaPella (talk) 03:37, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

In general, I prefer to keep the MoS in one place. If people have to click through six and seven pages to get the whole story, they will get discouraged and give up. It's much easier to have one big, well-organized MoS than a thousand little ones that take days to find. However, there is something useful in this. The MoS is prescriptive. Its job is to tell people what to do on Wikipedia and no more. Our regular articles are not; they describe what happens out in the world. In this respect, linking a rule to its related descriptive article might be helpful, so long as there is enough information on the MoS itself for beginners to understand what's expected of them. For example, I wouldn't chuck all the serial comma examples onto a descriptive article page because they show the reader how to use it, but I would reserve any discussion of the serial comma's history and prevalence for such a page. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:50, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Once again, the MoS is not in one place as it is. Some of the information is at WP:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Units of measurement and similar sub-articles. Reading all of it already requires clicking through a long list of pages, most of which duplicates (or even contradicts) what's already at the main MoS page, and even I haven't read them all. Art LaPella (talk) 06:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think we should make that situation any worse. But I don't think it will get worse if we're careful to keep all the "do this" and "here's how" on the MoS, keeping the "here's how it got that way" and the "more interesting stuff" in the regular articles. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I didn't find any "discussion of the serial comma's history and prevalence" at WP:MOS#Serial commas. And how would that advice apply to a typical section like MOS:NUMBERSIGN for instance? It gives the rule, and it gives examples which help explain the rule, but there isn't anything about "here's how it got that way" or "more interesting stuff". So that wouldn't be a change at all. But I agree that if you find such stuff, it should indeed go into a subarticle. Art LaPella (talk) 20:44, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Right. The history and prevalence would be in serial comma. The important part here is that serial comma is not part of the Manual of Style. Nothing in that article is required of Wikipedia editors or a part of Wikipedia policy, even though reading it might help editors better understand the part of the MoS that deals with the serial comma. The MoS stands on its own, but the article enriches. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Art LaPella about subpages. Of course, only very specialized stuff should be found in subpages but not summarized in MOS main. Most editors won't ever need to know our house style about uncalibrated radiocarbon dates or blazon, so moving them to subpages isn't going to do any harm. As for articles in the main namespace, WP:NOR applies to them, so they definitely should not mention discussions between Wikipedians as to why a particular choice was made in WP:MOS. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 14:17, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• I don't think this needs to be done. (What's on the page is presumed to be the version that has consensus, right? So you implicitly record the fact of the consensus every time you record anything.) Also, "citing sources" tends to inappropriately enshrine the previous consensus, and consensus can change, even for style issues.
• If we're doing to do this, then we might consider using WP:FOOTNOTES. It's discreet, it's familiar, and it can point to archived discussions just as easily as it can point to books, webpages, and journal articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:12, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Revisiting my concrete proposal

A week ago in this section dedicated to recording consensus I made this suggestion:

We can also get more creative. Why not a dedicated supplementary page for MOS, replicating the structure of WP:MOS itself but with each section's content replaced by synoptic explanations of the relevant MOS content, and links to archived consensual discussions? Every section of WP:MOS, and some subsections, could have a discreet unobtrusive link to that supplementary page, for the use of MOS editors and other enquirers. Why not? This would provide means of stabilising MOS, identifying topics that need further treatment, and informing all future discussion on this talkpage. The same could be done for all associated pages forming part of the Manual of Style.

Well, as I say in a section above, we see what we are primed to attend to. No one since has shown evidence of reading what I plainly wrote: "a dedicated supplementary page for MOS, replicating the structure of WP:MOS itself but with each section's content replaced by synoptic explanations of the relevant MOS content, and links to archived consensual discussions. ... for the use of MOS editors and other enquirers." Let me amplify the proposal:

• We make a page (call it the MOS Register, or MOSR) that replicates the current MOS page, and strip it of content except for headings and subheadings, then format these headings to show structure at a glance. A sample, with omissions (and allowing some licence in my use of HTML):

Punctuation

 ...

    Apostrophes

    Quotation marks

      Double or single

      Inside or outside

 ...

    Brackets and parentheses

      Sentences and brackets

 ...

• We provide links from each section (or subsection) of MOS to corresponding sections of MOSR, perhaps with an R (for record, or review, or register, or rationale) somewhere near the usual [edit] link, with [R] linking via a suitable anchor in MOSR when we have posted relevant material in MOSR, for the section in question. A sample from MOS:

Quotation marks                                       [R] [edit]

  See also: Quotations

The term quotation in the material below also includes other uses of quotation marks such as those for titles of songs, chapters, episodes, unattributable aphorisms, literal strings, "scare-quoted" passages, and constructed examples.

Double or single

Quotations are enclosed within double quotes ...

• Clicking on that [R] would bring the user to the corresponding section of MOSR, which might have text like this, along with its own [R] (meaning return to MOS). There the user would see a brief explanation that supports – or indeed questions – that section of MOS:

Punctuation

    Apostrophes

    Quotation marks                                    [R]

      Inside or outside

      [Note current at 14 January 2010:]

        The question of how quotation marks fit with other punctuation is much discussed in printed and online
        style guides, and has been controversial in discussion at WT:MOS. Nevertheless there is long and stable consensus
        for its use on Wikipedia [Links to archived discussion here]. The matter is under current discussion at
        [Link to live discussion here]. MOS calls for what is commonly referred to as logical quotation, a system adapted from standard
        British practice (see especially R.L. Trask, Penguin Guide to Punctuation, 1997), but having influential advocates also in
        America (for example, the linguist Geoffrey Pullum, co-author of the exhaustive Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, 2004).

• Gradually we could build up a comprehensive digest showing the history of each guideline, the quality of its consensus, any current discussion, and main sources in the printed literature or respected online sources.
• A variation: have instead a small individual page for each section of MOS that is fitted with an [R] link, which would be focused and quick to load. There could then still be a master MOSR document, structured as I have initially outlined, but with transclusions from each of the specific small sectional documents. This would allow overall surveys of MOS for consensus, stability, relation to other sources, and so on.

Well?

[Please respond below; do not disrupt this initial post of the subsection.]

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 10:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

We already do something similar to this. To take the section on LQ for an example, it includes a link to the regular Wikipedia article on this type of punctuation. That article covers the details and history of LQ, BQ and AQ in a relatively unbiased way. Separately from how it applies to our purposes, I feel that this system creates an interesting balance between the proscriptive MoS and the descriptive standard articles. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I have just started the page Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

There is already a register at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:08, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Wavelength:

Your attitude is so refreshing! "I have just started the page." Excellent! I have looked at the new Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register. It's great! A solid beginning. And yes, there is already a sort of register at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory. I thought that was useful when it was actively pursued, but I never considered it well-founded or linked as it might be to our work here. It is sparsely linked to, with nine links, four being from userspace (including Wavelength userspace, of course). The page is no longer maintained (last edit: 6 July 2009). Still, it can be turned to good use: an invaluable mine of information for building the new Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register.

Everyone:

Let's have discussion on this! New thinking (that learns from the past), new analysis (that probes well beyond prejudices), new energy (undamped by kneejerk negativity).

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Noetica's proposal looks good indeed. Tony (talk) 22:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I did read this proposal when Noetica first mentioned it; I was doubtful then and I am moreso now. If the MoS were static, then the register would be excellent. It would—assuming that I understand it properly—function like endnotes in a critical edition of a historic text. But the MoS is dynamic; it changes constantly, usually in minor details but sometimes in major ways. Each such change will require a corresponding change of the register. For editors who are aware of the register, conscious of its purpose and willing to collaborate with others, the maintenance of the register would become habitual and second-nature. Regulars at the MoS would update it at the same time they updated the MoS itself, and it would greatly clarify how the MoS came to be.

The problem comes from editors who are new to this page, who are unfamiliar with the register, who are unwilling to dedicate their time to its maintenance, or who are uninterested in the long-term care of the MoS. Such editors will not update the register, and they will be offended if we tell them they must. Surely you can imagine the scene after a long-time editor, someone with a reputation and stature among us, comes here and is rebuffed because we have our own private method for recording consensus. I think we would be attacked at the Village Pump: We would be accused—wrongly so—of being elitist and exclusive, because "only MoS insiders know about the oh-so-important register, but this is supposed to be the free encyclopedia anyone can edit." Someone would propose to eliminate the register, because it's "out-of-keeping with Wikipedia's principles", and quickly it would vanish. It would vanish because of people who are ignorant, but sometimes around here, ignorance is no excuse for silence.

I prefer User:WhatamIdoing's above suggestion of putting citations into footnotes. It suffers from a similar maintenance problem, but footnotes are better understood in the project than separate pages for endnotes. Furthermore, footnotes can be placed at any point in the text using the standard {{ref}} template.

One minor difficulty with either the register or footnotes is that when a discussion reaches consensus and the MoS is changed to reflect the new agreement, then the link to the discussion will have to be updated twice: Once in the original edit, and again when the discussion is archived. It should be possible to automate this, but that will probably require a custom bot. Ozob (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for joining the discussion, Ozob, even if your contribution is pessimistic. Some points in response:

• You write: "If the MoS were static, then the register would be excellent. [...] But the MoS is dynamic; it changes constantly, usually in minor details but sometimes in major ways. Each such change will require a corresponding change of the register." But of course! The raison d'être and essence of a register is keep up to date. We need a current synopsis of the state of play, for topics covered in MOS. The older initiative (Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory) was bold and useful, and it can be mined for materials to build our new page. But that older page did not serve as a register of the state of play. It was more passive, despite the solid work put into it before it fell into disuse.
• You write: "The problem comes from editors who are new to this page, who are unfamiliar with the register .... Such editors will not update the register, and they will be offended if we tell them they must." Why should they be told that they must? Others could do it instead. Why not? We have editors happy to act as monitors for all sorts of maintenance work like that. And if such monitoring work fell behind for a topic, this would be highlighted when the topic is next raised on the talkpage. The present text of MOS, the history of MOS and its talkpage, the non-updated entry in the Register: all these would provide data for bringing the Register up to take for the topic to hand.
• You say that we would be exposed to accusations that we are "elitist and exclusive". But nothing in this proposal, or the FAQ development, excludes anyone in any way. These would help newcomers, by bringing them into the picture – not waving them off in the direction of an archival Sargasso Sea. Do we think that the process at WP:FAC is "elitist and exclusive", because it has its own customised ways (and designated monitors, what's more)? Some will think so: but then, some will think anything you can name. We can't be hobbled by such fears. We need to act in the interest of MOS consensus and stability; the qualities and needs of MOS are unique in Wikipedia and on the web. Sure, call confidently for comments at the Village Pump. I think people will be relieved to see that we are finally getting our house in order.
• So-called "footnotes" (a relic from the days when the codex book still dominated and despoiled the forests of Earth) are not the solution. They would bloat MOS, and would not be conducive to extended explanation and linking of the sort that a register would. The MOS Register would be a development and monitoring tool; that role is separate from the role of MOS itself. Most editors will not be interested in such adjuncts; they will be intimidated if they see "footnotes" hooked onto the MOS topic that interests them. Myself, I would prefer to see not even the few notes that we presently have in MOS. The MOS Register would not only remove any need for these: it would give us a new way to trim MOS generally, making MOS even more friendly, direct, and concise for consultation by editors.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Given that you have already started and abandoned a similar project, I can safely predict that it won't be kept up to date. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work. When someone badly needs to be reminded that they are redebating something that has been discussed 20 times before (if indeed that happens – I'm starting to wonder), then that would be the time someone would be motivated to update the corresponding register section. Apparently the main problem last time was, nobody bothered to link anyone to the Archive Directory when it was needed. Art LaPella (talk) 01:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Art:

• Whom do you address when you say "you have already started and abandoned a similar project"? Not anyone in the present discussion, surely. On the other hand, if you mean "all you MOS editors", why not use the pronoun "we", instead? Are you with the MOS endeavour, or an outsider? I hope you are with it!
• Perhaps once more, "thinking makes it so", and negative remarks breed null results. But the MOS Register can be kept in editors' awareness as I have proposed, with the bold yet unobtrusive [R] link, and a heading at the top of WP:MOS and also of WT:MOS.
• Thank you for what is optimistic in your comments. And yes, any reform will require that people be committed to the change, and not let it lapse if it really does make the difference that MOS needs.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 01:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"Whom do I address ..." You were discussing the Archive Directory as something you all remembered, so I assumed you were all there. If that was the wrong assumption, well, it's just a pronoun. I wasn't there, so "we" would be unnatural; and yes, I do feel like an outsider in many ways. For instance, I wonder if Wikipedia wouldn't be more helpful, especially to my kids, if its style resembled Marvel Comics? (Imagine the Thirty Years War illustrated with speech balloons that say "Bam!" "Pow!") I watched this page just because I wanted to see any changes that would affect my AWB settings. But sure, I want the best for Wikipedia. I don't have nearly the same expertise in style manuals as the rest of you, and thus I have yielded easily in such discussions. But outside of academia, it is commonplace to distinguish between technical knowledge and the business management savvy it takes to get things done – which is not to say I'm a paragon of the latter virtue; my business success is due to my own efforts, not leading others. Art LaPella (talk) 04:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

While I believe that we should try the register to see if it helps, I share some of Ozob's concerns. It will be more work and we will have to both 1. make sure that both Wikipedia newcomers and Wikipedia editors who don't frequent the MoS can find it easily and 2. that we don't use it as an excuse to tell people to shut up. We should use Ozob's comments as a reminder to watch out for the appearance of elitism and other similar issues. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:23, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

← Since it seems critical, in making this work, that it be prominent so that people know it's there, I would suggest that the link should be something slightly less unobtrusive and more self-documenting than [R]. If it's really placed on the section heading line to the left of the [edit] link, it's not going to be in the way if it's more than one character long, after all. How about [reg]?

Perhaps I haven't understood what is being proposed here; I don't see why anyone would be rebuffed over this. It's just a tool for keeping track of consensus decisions that have been made, isn't it? I'd understood that the inherently messy process of reaching consensus would still be the same sort of messy here that it is everywhere else, except that this would make it easier for us to recreate the history later. (I'm thinking of Fisher Ames: "a republic is a raft which will never sink, but then your feet are always in the water.") --Pi zero (talk) 05:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Well I'd support WP:MOSR or WP:MOSREG so long as I don't have to CTRL-F Wavelength's original link every time. MOSREG seems more than reasonable.

I hope so, Pi Zero. I see some potential for abuse here, and it's something we should keep an eye out for. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I propose that the new page be made prominent by the addition of a statement at or near the top of Wikipedia:Manual of Style and the top of Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. The statement could be as follows: "A record of decisions related to this page can be found at Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register, and each section and subsection of this page with information there has a link to that page, R." (It might even be linked directly to the specific section or subsection.) The symbol "R" is better than "Reg" because it will still be valid if someone decides to change the word "Register" in the name of the new page to "Record" or "Review" or "Rationale", or decides to rearrange the words to "Register of the Manual of Style". The new page can have a new shortcut: "WP:MOSR" (with "WT:MOSR" for its discussion page).

-- Wavelength (talk) 02:03, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

While I have no strong feelings regarding R vs. REG, the rest seems like an excellent idea. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:03, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

When I started Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register, I was avoiding the acronym "MOS" (some editors type "MoS"), with the phrase "Manual of Style" modifying the noun "Register", although I realized at the time that "Style Register" might be misconstrued as a unit (together with "of", modifying the noun "Manual"). See this recent edit. "Wikipedia:Manual-of-Style Register" might be less ambiguous, but it might lead some editors to insert hyphens where they should not be. Now I am considering "Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register" and "Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Register)" as other options.

I am also thinking about starting a new page "Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Register" (shortcut: "WP:MOSNUM/R") as a supplement to "Manual of Style (dates and numbers)" (shortcut: "WP:MOSNUM").

I am also thinking about starting a new page "Manual of Style (disambiguation)/Register" (shortcut: "WP:DAB/R") as a supplement to "Manual of Style (disambiguation)" (shortcut: "WP:DAB").

-- Wavelength (talk) 16:11, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I have just started Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Register. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:49, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

[I am moving my comment of 18:49 out of my comment of 16:11, 16 January. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)]

I have started Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)/Register. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it should have the words "consensus register" in it. SMcCandish and Trebuchet looked at the page and couldn't tell what it was. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

As long as the word "consensus" has no clear definition in the context of Wikipedia discussions, I prefer the word "decision" to the word "consensus". -- Wavelength (talk) 17:21, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I moved Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I have recently started the page User:Wavelength/About Wikipedia/List of Manual of Style talk page search boxes. Would it be beneficial for there to be a (possibly revised) copy of it in project namespace? -- Wavelength (talk) 02:15, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Impressive. Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:11, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I have started Wikipedia:Manual of Style/List of talk page search boxes. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

During the past few days, I have done maintenance work on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory, by supplying links to discussions in the following archives.

• Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 108
• Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 109
• Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 110

Also, I have added the following pages to my watchlist.

• Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 111
• Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 112 (started by User:MiszaBot II at 07:04, 17 January 2010)

I hope to have a clearer idea soon of when to supply (at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory) links to discussions in Archive 111.

As Noetica said, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive Directory is "an invaluable mine of information for building the new Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register" (now renamed the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register). -- Wavelength (talk) 21:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Lapses in consensus

The following question is from Noetica's contribution at 09:16, 31 December 2009, under the subheading "Proposal to defer discussion of dashes".

• When and how does a MOS consensus ever lapse?
  

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:34, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:CCC says consensus can change. Elaborating on this, Wikipedia:No consensus #Policy/Guideline says: 'In a discussion regarding a section of policy or guideline, "no consensus" means that a proposed section should not be added. If the discussion is about a section already in the policy, that section should be removed. Policy and guideline should reflect consensus. If there is no consensus as to existing policy, then it no longer reflects that and should be removed.' This elaboration is not part of the official policy, but it's reasonable advice. Eubulides (talk) 21:56, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

This question of how a consensus might lapse at MOS (made egregiously prominent in recent discussion concerning en dashes) is not to be treated lightly. It is placed last in these four with good reason: we cannot answer it if we don't know what a MOS consensus is, or how it is achieved or recorded. Whatever conclusions have been reached elsewhere, they do not settle the question for MOS (will all its associated pages), where stability is paramount for the role we play in the Project as a whole.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:54, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

This question appears to me based on a misleading premise: consensus does not "lapse", it is a point-in-time evaluation. There is either consensus for the page as it stands, or there is not. This is described in WP:CCC, and is a consequence of the fact that this is a wiki. Any section of this page can be challenged or revised at any time (that's what this talk page is for), with the proviso that as a major guideline significant revisions should be proposed on the talk page first. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:21, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Except, CP, that such a bland one-size-fits-all approach is neither implemented throughout WP nor truly successful here at MOS. Whatever WP:Consensus "describes", it fails to support WP's demand for a robust, stable, and enlightened Manual of Style. The miracle is that we have such an amazingly thorough MOS at all! There is nothing on the web that comes close to its treatment of several important issues: nor, as my surveys reveal, anything in print that matches our careful detail for some topics. A great deal of work goes into that; but the result is uneven, and to do better we must think big, think new, and think bold.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:33, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with CP that consensus does not lapse or expire so much as change over time (or not). A better question might be "How and at what intervals should consensus be reassessed?" Considering the time and effort that would take, perhaps it would be best to assume that previous consensuses still stand until and unless some evidence to the contrary presents itself.

With regard to the MoS's stability level, I would not mind a policy of "propose all substantive edits on the talk page first." This way, changes go through a vetting process but individual editors' contributions and opinions are not stifled. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:41, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Darkfrog. Questions could be posed variously about how a consensus disappears, or expires, or passes away, or is annulled by being called into question, and so on. I raised the question precisely as I did because of a recent example in the discussion of en dashes, where it was claimed for a clutch of reasons that there was no longer a consensus. I take the verb lapse to have more meanings than "reach a use-by date":

3 a Law. Of a right, privilege, etc.: become void, revert to someone, through non-fulfilment of conditions, absence of heirs, etc. E18.

b Comm. Of a contract, agreement, policy, etc.: become void or ineffective, usu. through the withdrawal of one party or the failure to pay a premium. M19. (SOED, "lapse v.")

We might usefully consider all aspects of putative extinctions of consensus.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 06:52, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Using these examples and definitions, I would say that consensus does not lapse in this sense. The community and its attitudes may change, but I don't see how Wikipedia consensuses, in general, would have use-by dates or be subject to contract-like conditions to be fulfilled. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:53, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Consensus could lapse due to (1) external events, (2) new software in the general computer community, (3) or changes to Wikimedia software. For example,

(1) The United States could forbid use of customary weights and measures and only permit SI.

(2) A very popular new browser could render some popular way of writing things on Wikipedia illegible.

(3) Improvements to the editing interface could make improved typography (that used to be an unreasonable burden on editors) much easier. --Jc3s5h (talk) 22:59, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

A previous consensus lapses when there is consensus that that previous consensus has lapsed. Anything more complicated is a house of cards, as it will only continue in force as long as the future community has... consensus to enforce it. You can't force tomorrow's community to agree with today's.

On the other hand, improvements in facilitating access to the record of past consensus discussions are amplifying the ability of the future community to make informed choices, which I see as a thoroughly positive trend (cf. Noetica's endorsement of the FAQ and Register initiatives, below). --Pi zero (talk) 01:22, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Jc3 makes an excellent, excellent point. We even have a specific rule that is subject to it. Because the bans on curly quotes and single quotes are specifically because of problems with CTRL-F search features (though the one on single quotes also mentions other factors), these bans could become obsolete once the browser technology improves.

I was not thinking of this in terms of "consensus lapsing," but now that you mention it, it can certainly be seen this way. I suggest the following: "In general, Wikipedia consensuses do not have use-by dates. They only lapse when a given decision is made for certain reasons that later cease to apply." Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Lapses in consensus: the next stage

Discussion in three sections on consensus (#Defining consensus and #Achieving consensus; and the present section, #Lapses in consensus) has advanced less than discussion in #Recording consensus. This is understandable, since recording deliberations and decisions is a practical matter, where something can be done even without the nature of MOS consensus being defined or stipulated.

I now propose that we concentrate effort on the two initiatives to record consensus:

• The FAQ (see #Manual of Style FAQ), which explains some things for newcomers to this talkpage.
• The MOS Register (see #Revisiting my concrete proposal), which is being developed as a comprehensive resource for MOS editors in particular. It will record the state of play for sections of MOS, especially the more sensitive ones.

I seems to me that these two efforts at recording are useful in themselves; but they might also generate material for our eventual return to the other questions: how to define and achieve consensus at MOS, and how to know when a MOS consensus is lapsed or superseded.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Manual of Style

What is the relationship between Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Manual of Style? -- Wavelength (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

The manual of style is a guideline for proper encyclopedic writing style. Consensus is a policy about how editorial decisions are supposed to be made. there should be consensus about the style of an article: the manual of style provides instructions that would generally be consented to, but the manual of style can be overlooked if there is consensus among editors that it needs to be. --Ludwigs2 21:48, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Instruction creep, instruction creep, instruction creep. Blueboar (talk) 23:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I interpret the question as meaning something more like "MOS has been created through a process of endless battles and re-re-re-re-explaining grammar, punctuation, and other fairly basic things to a never-ending series of people. Garden-variety implementations of consensus have required the few "experts" who are still willing to bother with this page to engage in exhausting, repetitive, and painful discussions, in the full knowledge that as soon as you explain the True™ history and correct use of the en-dash to the satisfaction of one batch of editors, another, equally ignorant group will appear and demand that Wikipedia not conform to dead-tree typographical conventions, or that they personally be authorized to misuse punctuation in ways that they sincerely, but incorrectly, remember their long-dead English lit teacher support. How can we make the pain stop, while upholding the Proper Standards for the One True™ Style?"

I don't know how to make the pain stop, but I believe that my question is much closer to the real issue. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Ludwigs2: please contact me if you need to know where the Shift button is on the keyboard. Tony (talk) 01:37, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) tony - i confess that I have been ruined by microsoft word and am no longer able to type capital letters at the beginning of sentences (without great pain and effort). i've been considering suing bill gates, but in the meantime i'm afraid you will have to tolerate my unfortunate disability.

blueboar - that was meant as an explanation, not as a rule. sorry it came off the wrong way.

WhatamIdoing (capitals courtesy of cut and paste) - have you considered generous applications of alcohol to the problem?

--Ludwigs2 02:12, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I hadn't considered it.  ;-)

I'm practically teetotal myself, but given that the pain is someone else's -- I long ago abandoned this page to its fate, and wouldn't be here now if not for the note at WT:Consensus -- the alcohol would have to be applied to someone else, so my own lack of interest in alcohol needn't stop the experiment, if one of the MOS regulars wants to attempt it. (Shall we require bringing an article about the health effects of alcohol to FA level as our informed consent procedure?) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:37, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Blueboar:

Instruction creep, instruction creep, instruction creep.

O yeah? Well: "Platitudes, platitudes, platitudes." Don't throw a wet blanket over these sparks, if you can't see that a serious new discussion is kindling here. This is not about "instruction creep"; it's about finding bearings and procedures for MOS that will enable it to serve its purpose better. With those in place, we might be able to trim away some dead wood: some old instructions that have failed us.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 02:06, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Noetica, I certainly agree in general terms that it would be good to clarify what consensus is. I'm not so convinced that it's a good idea for the MOS to strike out boldly on its own on that clarification. I'm worried that your subtext may be precisely to insulate the MOS against situations where it thinks it has a consensus, but then it turns out that editors in general don't like it. I don't think the MOS should have insulation of that sort. --Trovatore (talk) 02:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

if you would like to clarify what consensus is (something I've been banging my head on for a good couple of years now) please feel free to discuss the matter over at wp:consensus. it aint a pretty conversation, though. --Ludwigs2 02:15, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I am certainly not volunteering to provide a stunning insight of crystal clarity that settles the matter once and for all. Well, not until someone talks money, at least. Mostly I'm expressing my skepticism at Noetica's motivational-speaker rhetoric in the effort to craft a MOS-specialized notion of consensus. A few words on how the general notion of consensus applies specifically to MOS-type issues might indeed be useful — provided it does not exaggerate the importance or independence of the MOS and its process. --Trovatore (talk) 02:21, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Ludwigs2: I can well imagine that the conversation at WT:CONSENSUS gets ugly. Just now, I don't want to join that conversation. I really don't want to be here at WT:MOS, even; and I may not be able to stay much longer. We'll see how things go. But we don't need to know in the abstract what consensus is: we need practical criteria that we can work with. This is not a barren intellectual exercise, but a search for principles we can apply. The need for principles like that at Wikipedia is indisputable, and much effort has been put into establishing them. I simply identify a local need, for our MOS work, that is so far unmet.

Trovatore: Why do you not assume good faith? Why assume I have a "subtext"? I have given ample reasons for us to work on criteria for consensus here at MOS; why suspect that I am withholding anything? I am as ready as the next editor to reform established conventions, where reasonable analysis shows them to be flawed; but I, like the rest of the old hands here, also value stability. Again and again we hear cries of anguish from the good people at WP:FAC about capricious changes in MOS. I stand against those. Don't you?

What you call "Noetica's motivational-speaker rhetoric" I deploy when plain speaking falls on deaf ears and sullen hearts – brief plain speaking, long-winded plain speaking, strident or quiet plain-speaking. Again and again people here do not listen. Not surprising, since new messages are hard to discern, bobbing on an ocean of tired old disputations reiterated ad nauseam, for which the present action on principles and practical methods in fact promises relief.

Finally, Trovatore, there is no need to exaggerate the importance of MOS. It has powerful but unobtrusive influence throughout Wikipedia as a cynosure editors can appeal to when faced with incompetent or quirky editing, or when editors seek to resolve nagging doubts for themselves. It has made a dramatic difference to the quality of featured articles (thanks to editors like Tony). And the importance is broader still. MOS is referred to in blogs and forums across the web, as a source dealing boldly and often dazzlingly well with issues that are untouched (even unknown!) by other "authorities". Like it or not, that's how we are received by many. MOS, like Wikipedia itself, is unique on the web. Let's live up to it.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 05:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't really think I'm not assuming good faith. I think you're under-emphasizing a certain aspect of your argument, but not really concealing it. You probably think the MOS ought to be very important. I disagree; I don't think it should be that important. I'm especially less than enthused about someone like Tony having such influence over it, given that he clearly leans substantially to the left politically, and is not shy about taking stylistic positions based on that. I do admit that in cases where politics doesn't come into it, he does a pretty good job, though he could still do better about keeping his emotions out of the discussion. --Trovatore (talk) 08:19, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the MoS is sometimes taken too seriously, but I seriously fear you've opened a quite big can of worms by mentioning politics. BTW, I've just finished reading this, claiming, "The clearest fact about the spirit of the regulative rules the prescriptive ideologues advance is that they are genuinely linked to conservative ideology: the mistrust of ordinary people and the pessimism about what they would get up to if left to their own devices is palpable." That, rather than the other way round, is what would sound more plausible a priori to me, too. (Is anyone keeping a count of quotations of Pullum in this page?)

GD&R! ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 17:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't single out Tony on this one. In fact, I haven't seen anything in his remarks on the MoS that gives me any idea one way or the other about his political affiliations. And I wouldn't know about Pullum's findings, but I'm quite a believer in correct English— if 300,000 people make a mistake, it's still a mistake—but I'm about as politically liberal as they come. ...however if we take "conservative" away from its American context, which nearly equates it with "Republican," and look at it with its conservative vs. progressive meaning as in "allow change to happen" vs. "actively push change" then yes, I believe that the MoS should be conservative in that it should reflect what has already become correct as opposed to what people think might become correct in time. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)Don't read politics into it.

If millions of literate native speakers have regularly made a particular "mistake" for centuries, on what grounds should it be considered a "mistake" in the first place? Or, how can one define "correct [INSERT ADJECTIVES SUCH AS "FORMAL" HERE] English" other than "the language which native English speakers normally use in [INSERT ADJECTIVES SUCH AS "FORMAL" HERE] contexts except for occasional, accidental mistakes which the speakers themselves would immediately recognize as such"? ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 16:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

You make three points here that were absent from my comment: "millions," "literate," and especially "centuries." The biggest factor that turns a mistake into the new standard is time. Usually, it's measured in generations rather than years. The people who uphold the previous standard retire or die. The next most important factor is who is making the mistake and how the general population perceives that mistake. If the professors and writers and publishers—the "literate" population—are the ones using the non-standard form, then the rest of the population may be willing to see them as leaders and follow suit. However, if the entire population continues to view the mistake as a mistake through the centuries and despite the number and skill level of those who use it, then it can potentially remain a mistake forever. For example, lots of Southerners use the word "ain't" in ways that standard English considers incorrect. It's been this way for about a century. However, none of those people believe that "he ain't" is correct in formal English, only that it's acceptable in ordinary Southern speech. If things continue this way, then it is likely that "he ain't" will never become standard. Returning to my comment, though, if 300,000 bloggers decide that they just don't like the English that their mean teachers taught them, then no, that doesn't cut it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• Trovatore, announcing that I am left-wing is just as fanciful as branding non-sexist language as left-wing. Some things I will do when I accede to world leadership will horrify the left, I assure you. The idiot-right Bush administration (don't we love it) used non-sexist language in its press releases and other documents. Explain that, please. Tony (talk) 01:27, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The language itself is not left-wing; the sociological theories that claim that the sex-neutral masculine pronouns are sexist, are left-wing.

Don't ask me to account for anything the Bush administration did. Just so you can aim your barbs better, I might as well tell you I'm not a conservative. I'm a libertarian. --Trovatore (talk) 01:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh no, we're having a politics discussion. This thread needs to end; therefore I summon Hitler. Ozob (talk) 01:40, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Seconded. I would only add that the idea that using "he" as if it meant "everyone" implied that everyone who counted was male was radical in the 1960's. It has become standard in the fifty years since. Frankly, I have no objection to using "one" as a third-person singular. It's rare in U.S. English, but it does what we need and wouldn't look out of place in British articles. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

MoS breach: hooter sounding with flashing red lights. 1960s. Hitler says (thus not left-wing). Tony (talk) 04:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

At 03:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC), I invited Jimbo Wales to examine this discussion and the preceding four discussions, but no one replied there and that section has been archived at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 53, section 48. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:48, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Less than zero likelihood that His Majesty would stoop. Asking him to do so also reinforces that he's something special. Tony (talk) 07:28, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject EastEnders/Manual of style has been marked as part of the Manual of Style

Wikipedia:WikiProject EastEnders/Manual of style (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as part of the Manual of Style. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the MoS status tag pending consensus at WikiProject MOS, and replaced the tag with a copyedit notice. Tony (talk) 04:28, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

You spoilsport you. -- Hoary (talk) 04:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

It's basically copied from the TV MoS but made relevant to the EastEnders WikiProject. Why would it need copyediting? AnemoneProjectors (talk) 12:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

You want me to do it? No. There are, apart from the prose glitches, several MoS breaches. Tony (talk) 22:14, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd appreciate some help in fixing the breaches. I wasn't aware there were any because I based it on existing MOSes, although some small parts of it were written by someone else a long time ago when the WikiProject was created, but I can't see any breaches. But you've tagged it for "grammar, style, cohesion, tone or spelling" but there aren't any problems with those things. AnemoneProjectors (talk) 22:50, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• I'll be along there soon. Tony (talk) 03:35, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd start with the broader TV MOS page; errors may have been inherited from there. For a "guideline" like this one, I would suggest stripping it as much as possible so that it says nothing that isn't already covered at broader guidelines. What remains should be very, very short and can be made a section of the TV guideline. If this stands as-is, it's a bad precedent for a new "manual of style" for every single TV series, movie franchise, novel trilogy, game series, etc., etc., etc. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 11:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Ellipsis character rationale

The MOS currently says the precomposed ellipsis character (…) is "harder to input and edit, and too small in some fonts. Not recommended." Recently, the "not recommended" status provoked the removal of the character from the edit tools, and discussion of whether curly quotes should also be removed, since they're "not recommended" either.

I've searched the MOS discussion archives but didn't find any discussion of how the ellipsis character is "harder to input and edit" or how it is "too small in some fonts." I did find an instance where this rationale was challenged with "why do we care about bad fonts?" but there were no responses. So I am bringing it up again.

• Exactly which fonts are problematic, and are they really so widely used for viewing Wikipedia content as to be a concern?
• Exactly how is it any harder to input than any other special character in the edit tools? Why single it out?
• Exactly how is it "hard to edit" at all? What editing do you ever need to do to it besides removing it?

Please forgive me if I overlooked the relevant discussion; ellipsis is mentioned countless times in the archives and it's quite possible I missed where this was discussed before. But if these questions don't have solid answers, I don't see why the precomposed character should remain "not recommended" or why it shouldn't remain in the edit tools, at least under Symbols if not under Insert. Thanks for your time. —mjb (talk) 10:47, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Mjb, I'm glad you have raised the matter here. I have long proposed that we MOS editors and the Edittools specialists should be in closer dialogue.

I recall some discussion of the preformed ellipsis on this page, but I can't place it exactly. (See sections immediately above, for moves to make better records of decisions here; and thanks for giving an example of the need for such reforms!) Generally, the thought was that we needed:

• Just one form of the ellipsis, so that articles would have a uniform appearance, could be easily edited, and could be reliably searched (for technical editing purposes, or for retrieving text that includes ellipses for whatever purposes); therefore
• The form that is easiest to input, the most commonly used, and the one with most reliable rendering properties would be ideal; and luckily
• Three normal periods (full stops) fits all three criteria, especially being the most commonly used by non-typographer amateurs and the easiest to input. There are no technical hitches in its use (for example, the three dots do not break apart at the end of a line, so the preformed character has no advantage there).

I have read the discussion at MediaWiki_talk:Edittools#Ellipsis. Some remarks prompted by points made there:

• The mere existence of an entity such as the preformed ellipsis does not make it "proper typography" for our unique collaborative, amateur, dynamic, online system for text on Wikipedia.
• The mere existence of that character does not even make it "proper" for printed work. The legendary Bringhurst advises against automatic adoption of "off-the-shelf" characters, proposing often that custom solutions be found.
• Enough is controversial already about ellipses (spacing adjacent to them; comportment with other punctuation; use with or without square brackets); we need to keep things manageable for our users, and requiring that they peck out characters from the edittools should be a last resort. Certainly it should not be required for basic punctuation.
• In fact, though, it has been proposed at your Edittools talkpage that the ellipsis character be retained in the Symbols section (not the Insert section). I fully endorse that proposal. Why not shift all such non-MOS-approved characters into Symbols?
• Some characters, like the square root sign, are not in that deprecated category, though they may appear to be at first glance. The sign √ is needed for casual or non-technical use, and its so-called "abuse" mentioned in earlier discussion at Edittools is not really abuse at all. It is the only alternative for those who don't know LaTeX. And note: √ is quite properly used beyond mathematics as an independent sign, in our articles. It indicates a root in historical linguistics, for example.
• The Edittool listings need a general overhaul. There is every reason for the Latin section to be in alphabetical order, for example, and no reason for it to retain its present type-of-diacritic order, which is fiendishly annoying in practice. The Greek section is better, having an alphabetic polytonic range after ranges of common monotonic forms. But it could do with tweaking also.
• Dialogue with MOS editors would help in sorting out such issues, but as far as I know this has never happened systematically. I hope we can all see the need for that, and I look forward to such a collaboration.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 11:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't see any advantage of using … (single char) rather than ... (three chars): they look identical or almost so in practically all proportional fonts, the former looks crappy in monospaced fonts, and the latter is much easier to type. So I strongly prefer the latter. On the other hand, the former causes no more problems than most other non-ASCII characters such as dashes, so I don't even bother replacing it when I encounter it. As for the bullet about "three spaced periods", has it ever occurred to anyone to do that in a WP article before reading this guideline, or is it just another instance of WP:BEANS? Personally, I'd just trash the whole "Style" list of the "Ellipses" section: I don't think its usefulness justifies the bytes used for it. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 14:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

A di M, I agree that the Ellipses section of MOS is too wordy. A few sections up from here I highlight it as needing tighter exposition. But we should list the three common styles (…, ..., . . .). Editors will consult MOS about style of ellipses: I've seen it raised at talkpages often enough.

I don't know that ". . ." is common in WP articles; but it certainly needs explicit mention and dismissal in MOS. Chicago Manual of Style (CMOS) devotes about six pages to the ellipsis, and approves various competing conventions for its use: but throughout, ". . ." is the only style it countenances, apart from the confused discussion of a fourth dot. Similarly for the majority of American guides, and many British. They do not address what we confront here, the main issue being potential linebreaks between the dots of ". . .". Therefore, not WP:BEANS at all.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 21:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I fully endorse what Noetica has said. In particular, the single-character ellipse, as well as being less convenient to key in, renders the three dots far too widely, IMO. Tony (talk) 23:06, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Personal preferences about how compactly ellipses should render aside, the fact that "…" and "..." "look identical or almost so" is just as easily an argument for both being equally acceptable, rather than for one being dismissed. This equality makes it even more tempting to use the character that means ellipsis rather than a set of three characters that visually represent one. And the difference in how cumbersome each one is to enter is sufficiently small to make it a matter of personal preference. Period-period-period, Alt 0133, copy-paste, or click or click-drag in Edittools, it's all the same to me, but I'm not going to tell someone that because I find period-period-period marginally easier to type, that they should not use the slightly more difficult options if they're so inclined.

And so what if the precomposed character "looks crappy in monospaced fonts"? Why do we care about monospaced fonts? They make lots of things look awful, particularly any glyph that's normally very narrow and must be rendered dead-center and with too much space around it (a period for example, or three in a row!), or a glyph that's normally very wide, like an ellipsis or dash, which has to be squashed. But is Wikipedia content being rendered on a sufficiently large number of monospace displays that we need to be concerned about this?

To address one of Noetica's points, we need to keep things manageable for our users, and requiring that they peck out characters from the edittools should be a last resort. Certainly it should not be required for basic punctuation. — no one is suggesting that the precomposed ellipsis be required or even "recommended", only that it no longer be "not recommended". It would suffice to say that use of the precomposed character is an acceptable, optional alternative to three periods. —mjb (talk) 00:59, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The edit box is by default monospaced, and so it is for anyone who doesn't know how, doesn't bother, or doesn't want to change it (I guess more than 90% of editor). ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 13:16, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I too agree that we should require three unspaced periods, and I also agree that the present section on ellipses is too long. Here is a possible replacement:

An ellipsis (plural ellipses) is an omission of material from quoted text; or some other omission, perhaps of the end of a sentence, often used in a printed record of conversation. The ellipsis is represented by ellipsis points: a set of three dots. Wikipedia represents ellipses by three unspaced periods (...). Do not use the Unicode pre-composed ellipsis character (…) or spaced periods (. . .).

An ellipsis usually has a space on either side. However, do not put a space between an ellipsis and:

• A quotation mark following adjacent to the ellipsis,
• Any bracket enclosing the ellipsis, or
• Sentence-final punctuation, colons, semicolons, or commas directly following the ellipsis.

Include sentence-final punctuation after an ellipsis only if it is textually important. For example, exclamation marks and question marks.

When transcribing spoken material, do not use an ellipsis to represent a pause in speech.

Do not put square brackets around an ellipsis unless it is needed to indicate that the ellipsis does not occur in the source material. For example, when quoting a transcript which contains ellipses, omitted passages should be marked with [...].

There is one thing which is not included in my rewrite. I have removed the instructions on non-breaking spaces because I didn't know what to do with them. The MoS presently says:

• Use non-breaking spaces ( ) only as needed to prevent improper line breaks, for example:
  • To keep a quotation mark from being separated from the start of the quotation: "... we are still worried."
  • To keep the ellipsis from wrapping to the next line: "France, Germany, ... and Belgium but not the USSR."

I am not sure how to define an "improper line break", so rather than make a poor guess I have left it out for the moment. Ozob (talk) 01:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I imagine that an improper line break would be any line break that divides what's not supposed to be divided. All three dots in an ellipsis should be on the same line. All the quotation marks in "example of 'quote-within-a-quote' " should be on the same line even though there is a space between the last two.

As far as ellipses go, within correct styles, we should allow editors their freedom. If we keep the spaced ellipsis, then the MoS should include a note telling editors the code for non-breaking spaces. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

No, Darkfrog: the three dots of our recommended ellipsis will never break apart. An "improper break" is exactly as given in the examples. We don't want this to happen:

In spite of these precautions, he concluded: "...
we are still worried."

Or this:

He enumerated several prospective markets: "France, Germany,
... and Belgium but not the USSR."

This too is universally judged improper:

Did he say "Germany and Belgium; but not the USSR, Poland,
..."?

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 04:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Generalizing from your examples, it seems that non-breaking space should be inserted if:

1. The ellipsis is adjacent to a punctuation mark; in this case, the non-breaking space is on the other side of the ellipsis; or
2. The ellipsis is separated by a space from a punctuation mark; in this case, the non-breaking space is between the ellipsis and the punctuation mark.

Does this look right? Also, I have corrected an error in my proposal: There should be no space between an ellipsis and any quotation mark, not just a following quotation mark. Ozob (talk) 03:18, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

[←]Mjb, some responses to points you make above:

... the fact that "…" and "..." "look identical or almost so" is just as easily an argument for both being equally acceptable, rather than for one being dismissed.

I think not. If "…" and "..." are hard for an editor to distinguish visually, that is a serious problem because the two may look egregiously different on another user's system (perhaps an end-user's screen), yet the present editor may not detect the potential problem. This may apply even in the edit view. The situation is seen to be worse when we note other ways Wikipedia text is used: it is quoted online with all manner of fonts and formatting in place; it is printed out by end-users, and even appears in traditional print publications. Bad choices and inconsistencies that we gloss over now may re-emerge later, to no one's benefit or credit.

... but I'm not going to tell someone that because I find period-period-period marginally easier to type, that they should not use the slightly more difficult options if they're so inclined.

You might not give that advice; but MOS should recommend only period-period-period (...). Not only are there the reasons I have repeated and amplified just now, there is another quite distinct reason. The preformed ellipsis can appear in edit text in these four ways at least (and you may add some others):

… … … …

Tech-oriented editors have their own preferences among these, and will apply them if the preformed ellipsis is approved. Add to these four the two other kinds of ellipsis mentioned in MOS, and add adjacent hard spaces in various positions (also variously coded), and we can see that a laissez-faire approach leaves editors to deal with these variants, any combination of which may occur together in the edit text for an article, between text and text (where text may include other punctuation):

text …text

text …text

text …text

text ...text

text . . .text

text …text

text …text

text …text

text ...text

text . . .text

text… text

text… text

text… text

text... text

text. . . text

text …text

text …text

text …text

text ...text

text . . .text

And at least double that list, using other combinations that would be equally allowed.

Mjb, it is to avoid this sort of monstrosity that MOS keeps things simple and manageable for the average non-tech-nerd. It is fatally easy for Edittools specialists, for example, not to consider consequences like this. Finally, remember that our articles are edited iteratively and collaboratively. Even if one method for ellipses were used consistently by any one editor, a succession of editors with different ways can leave in their wake a text that is barely editable, and likely to frighten novices away altogether. Such a text might even be hard to search through for automated rectification by bots – and complexity breeds errors.

You wanted MOS input to deliberations at Edittools; will you now take it on board? You now have compelling reasons to rethink this opinion: "It would suffice to say that use of the precomposed character is an acceptable, optional alternative to three periods."

Now, Ozob:

Earlier on this page I wrote: "I have found a neat way to fix the ellipses guidelines; but I will not put it forward unless circumstances improve." I also said that the guidelines were "stable enough". But I do not think they are entirely right. They have included palpable flaws for more than two years, and your rewrite does not remove those flaws. For example, what you rethought most recently:

However, do not put a space between an ellipsis and:

• A quotation mark following adjacent to the ellipsis,
•  [...]

In fact, quite often there should be a space between an adjacent quotation mark and an ellipsis (in either order). Two points of procedure for you:

1. The present section is "advertised" to the community as concerned with the ellipsis character, not with the the deployment of ellipses. If you propose your broader changes in this section, therefore, people will not have been alerted; and whatever we mean by the word, you will not have achieved consensus.
2. You ignored my earlier request to focus on such superordinate procedural matters, when you made changes to the en dash guidelines (also without advertising them in a well-labelled section, I note). I did not then revert your edit; but I do wish you would respect these other opinions, rather than forging ahead without due notification or any semblance of durable consensus, according to any standards approved on Wikipedia.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 06:11, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The period in the edit text can look like ., ., or %; that alone makes for 27 ways of typing the string ... in the edit box. :-) (BTW, I support Ozob's idea of replacing the "Style" list with one short sentence. I'm not sure about the rest of the section.) ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 13:26, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Regarding ellipses: I did not originally intend my rewrite to eliminate any flaws; I intended it only as liposuction. I only became interested in changing the content when I realized that I didn't understand the rules on non-breaking spaces, and, as I hope you can see from my inquisitive tone above, I am still trying to figure them out. I would like to see examples of situations where there should be a space between an ellipsis and a quotation. I am also curious to see your rewrite, though I understand why you would be reluctant given your past experience here with possessives.

Regarding en dashes: As I said in my edit summary, I believe that the present text has consensus. There is no reason for me to not implement consensus.

Regarding procedural matters: I will have nothing to contribute to that discussion until I can think of an objective standard for consensus. I have not succeeded yet, but I have been following the discussion. Furthermore, I see no reason why we should not consider other, more traditional matters here at the same time as we discuss consensus.

I suspect that you and I have somewhat different editing styles. I think you are more cautious than I am. I tend to jump in and start working; I am not afraid to change the MoS, even though it affects millions of articles. You did that with your excellent stream of corrections and improvements a few days ago, but I think you prefer to be more cautious than me with larger edits. Am I right, or am I misunderstanding you? I would like to work with you despite our differing attitudes. Ozob (talk) 19:57, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Ozob, sorry for the delay in getting back to this. Points to answer your points:

• I understand how and why your focus shifted, but the fact remains: we have to signal proposed changes before making them. Editors interested in the wording of the ellipses section, or the detailed guidelines for use, might pass over a section headed "Ellipsis character rationale", after a cursory scan of the first few lines. And they might continue to ignore all occurrences in their watchlists under such a heading. Whatever consensus is, it will surely require well-marked discussion.
• You are curious about my questioning this: "Do not put a space between an ellipsis and: / A quotation mark adjacent to the ellipsis." Here is an example where, following general principles (including our own), there ought to be such spaces, for the two marks in either order. A quote, abridged using ellipses, from a long-winded prosecutor who quotes the words of a defendant and of a jurisprudential text:

Does the defendant claim that her co-accused "persuaded her by devious means", that she was ... "not there at the time", that both parties were "drunk and not fully responsible" ...? Well, how can all of these be true? If "truth" ... is understood in "the usual ways" ... and not to suit one's need to evade the consequences of one's actions ... "the convenient ways" ..., then some of her claims must be false.

Practice differs, of course: but then, practice is confused. (By the way: procedurally here, the meaning of A adjacent to B must be loose enough to allow that there be a space between A and B.[Wording modified later.–Noetica])

• You are curious about my proposed simplified rewrite; but I have developed a conflict of interests with other activities, and now prefer not to put such innovations forward on Wikipedia. I could: but I do not offer it because the effort would very likely be wasted (compare once more Archive 108, and the futility with possessives). For such widely discussed topics, meticulous "original research" might be more welcome elsewhere.
• Procedural questions are manifestly the most pressing on this page now, and attention is a scarce resource. Dealing at length with one question often means that other questions get less attention than they merit.
• We may indeed have different editing styles. I focus intently on the smallest matters (like spaces with en dashes), and the big picture (like procedure and the nature of consensus), but tend to ignore the mesoscopic, which may be your preferred focal range.
• I'm sure we could all work better together, with greater effort and with respect for each other's strengths and insight into our own weaknesses. But as I have said, I only returned to MOS because there was an itch with citations of guides that I wanted to scratch, and I have decided that my circumstances will not allow me to continue – neither here nor at Wikipedia as a whole. For now, that is. I'll put a note at my talkpage soon. No big deal.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:42, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this is not the best thread in which to overhaul the rules on spacing ellipses. Perhaps we will discuss it another time. Nevertheless, I very much enjoyed seeing your example! I agree that such ellipses ought to be spaced. (I also agree that "adjacent" needs to be carefully specified.)

I hope that your hiatus is short and that you are able to return to editing Wikipedia soon. Ozob (talk) 00:28, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Ordering the Latin symbols at Edittools

Noetica, you said, at 11:41, 8 January 2010 (UTC): "There is every reason for the Latin section to be in alphabetical order, for example, and no reason for it to retain its present type-of-diacritic order, which is fiendishly annoying in practice." Both orders can be accommodated by the use of both dimensions (horizontal and vertical), as follows. The display is incomplete but illustrative.

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
Á   Ć   É       Í     Ĺ   Ń Ó     Ŕ Ś   Ú       Ý Ź
À       È       Ì           Ò           Ù
   Ĉ   Ê   Ĝ Ĥ Î Ĵ         Ô       Ŝ   Û   Ŵ   Ŷ
Ä       Ë       Ï           Ö           Ü       Ÿ
à       Ẽ       Ĩ         Ñ Õ           Ũ       Ỹ
    Ç       Ģ       Ķ Ļ   Ņ       Ŗ Ş Ţ 
                                        Ů
Ǎ   Č Ď Ě       Ǐ     Ľ   Ň Ǒ     Ř Š Ť Ǔ         Ž
Ā       Ē       Ī           Ō           Ū       Ȳ
Ă       Ĕ   Ğ   Ĭ           Ŏ           Ŭ
    Ċ   Ė   Ġ   İ                                 Ż
Ą       Ę       Į           Ǫ           Ų
      Ḍ       Ḥ       Ḷ Ṃ Ṇ       Ṛ Ṣ Ṭ 
a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
á   ć   é       í     ĺ   ń ó     ŕ ś   ú       ý ź
à       è       ì           ò           ù
â   ĉ   ê   ĝ ĥ î ĵ         ô       ŝ   û   ŵ   ŷ
ä       ë       ï           ö           ü       ÿ
ã       ẽ       ĩ         ñ õ           ũ       ỹ
    ç       ģ       ķ ļ   ņ       ŗ ş ţ
                                        ů
ǎ   č ď ě       ǐ     ľ   ň ǒ     ř š ť ǔ         ž
ā       ē       ī           ō           ū       ȳ
ă       ĕ   ğ   ĭ           ŏ           ŭ
    ċ   ė   ġ   ı                                 ż
ą       ę       į           ǫ           ų
      ḍ       ḥ       ḷ ṃ ṇ       ṛ ṣ ṭ

-- Wavelength (talk) 05:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

A worthwhile exercise, Wavelength. It shows the interaction of the two categorical variables: base letter (upon which almost universally accepted alphabetical ordering can be imposed) and type of diacritic (for which no widely accepted ordering applies). The edittools are not organised to implement such a two-dimensional array, though. The best we could have is a sub-sequence of all A-forms, then of all a-forms, then all B-forms, b-forms, C-forms, .... Within each sub-sequence there should be the same ordering by type of diacritic. One way to show the result, using the characters you present above:

AÁÀÂÄÃǍĀĂĄaáàâäãǎāăą Bb CĆĈÇČĊcćĉçčċ DĎḌdďḍ EÉÈÊËẼĚĒĔĖĘeéèêëẽěēĕėę ...

This would be far more usable for the Latin edittools: anyone looking for some variant of E, for example, can see immediately where it will be found.

I raised all of this with an admin, who fixed some other things that were easier to implement, but not this. I think we should make a new section at MediaWiki_talk:Edittools, based on both your array and my response here. (They usually don't discuss deeply or consult widely over there, I regret having to report. There's another area that needs procedural reforms, just as we at MOS do.) Would you like to do it, or should I? Or mjb?

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 09:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Noetica, if you make the initial representation, I'll chime in to back you up. We really do need to foster closer working relations with that page. Tony (talk) 10:31, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Please see MediaWiki talk:Edittools#Arrangement of Latin characters below edit window. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:04, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Hell yes, curly quotes should be removed from the edit tools. What a pain in metaphorectum those things are. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 11:50, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Proposal is at Edittools talkpage, now

I have now raised my concrete proposal (see just above) in a new section at MediaWiki_talk:Edittools. MOS editors may like to monitor progress there.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 01:20, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I have updated, expanded, and improved the proposal. Please have your say there, and also take the challenge I put forward. Too often posts are ignored at that page, yet the edittools affect all WP editors' daily work.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 07:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Consensus and Wikipedia:Manual of Style and Wikipedia:Ignore all rules

Wikipedia:Consensus lacks a clear definition of consensus, so it is not an adequate guide for Wikipedia:Manual of Style.
Wikipedia:Ignore all rules says: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it."
-- Wavelength (talk) 16:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

That IAR thing should never have been inserted. It is not a governing feature. It is a useless rule. Tony (talk) 22:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style says of itself: "Use common sense in applying it; it will have occasional exceptions."

-- Wavelength (talk) 23:37, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

So ignore it, duh. BTW, it was among the first rules ever on Wikipedia.[1] ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 12:44, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Examples of consensus

I am posing this challenge to all viewers of this discussion page. Please provide (if you can!) links to examples of MOS discussions where decisions were reached by consensus. Please be prepared to explain (if you can!) what consensus means in each example, and how we can be certain that it was actually achieved. You can help to organize this section by arranging your examples under new subheadings as follows, substituting your user name for the words in square brackets, and using "=== ===".

• [First editor]'s example 1 of MOS consensus
• [First editor]'s example 2 of MOS consensus
• [Second editor]'s example 1 of MOS consensus
• [Second editor]'s example 2 of MOS consensus

-- Wavelength (talk) 16:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC) ...... [I am inserting "links to". -- Wavelength (talk) 16:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)]
[I am adding "of MOS consensus" to each proposed subheading, for clearer linking. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:06, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
[I am changing "name" to "user name". -- Wavelength (talk) 17:59, 8 January 2010 (UTC)]
[I am clarifying further, with "=== ===". -- Wavelength (talk) 18:18, 8 January 2010 (UTC)]
[I am converting the sub-subheadings to subheadings. I am revising the second subheading to "Darkfrog's example 1 of MoS consensus".
-- Wavelength (talk) 21:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)]

Maybe we shouldn't be looking in the MoS archive. Maybe we should be looking at other pages. Yes, the MoS is fundamentally different from most Wikipedia articles, but if what we're looking for is a civilized, reasoned and fruitful discussion resulting in Wikipedia consensus, then any example would be better than none. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:55, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Art LaPella's example 1 of MOS consensus

#"From" and "between". Both of us agreed, so that was consensus by any definition. This is trivial, but perhaps it will help Wavelength to clarify what kind of example he really wanted. Art LaPella (talk) 02:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Darkfrog's example 1 of MoS consensus

Proposed new text. It was a vote, so it's not an ideal example of a Wikipedia consensus and perhaps the reason it went so smoothly was because it was an issue that had been fought over before, but the discussion 1. allowed everyone a chance to speak 2. was resolved relatively quickly and 3. did not devolve into a fight, so maybe some expansion of our support/oppose structure could be of use to us. It would also be simple enough for newcomers to understand without much explanation. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Linking section heads

Created the page List of Swedish football transfers winter 2009–10 to cover the transfers in the two top leagues in Sweden, when creating the article i linkt each team section to each teams articles on wikipedia as i saw as better and quicker way then to search for each teams article, however that have now been reverted following a WP:MOS i cant clearly find. I still think that its better if section heads are linkt to each team, but its not something that needs to be done everywhere, however i would not a majore opinion that they should not be linkt. --> Halmstad, Charla to moi 20:43, 09 January 2010 (UTC)

Links within section titles can cause accessibility problems; you can use {{main}} immediately after the title, instead. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 21:51, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I hadn't realize that reason for avoiding them. In general there are lots of good reasons for avoiding markup, of any kind, in section headings.

• The one that's my personal peeve is that many sorts of markup break clickability of edit summaries. The anchor that's generated for the little arrow by the edit summary is different from the one used in the page in itself, and when you click on the arrow, you get sent to the top of the page, and have to search for what you were looking for. That bugs the crap out of me. (However, simple unpiped wikilinks in a section heading do not cause this problem.)
• It's overloading too much functionality into one thing. Section headings are not simple text; they're sort of markup themselves. They should not have other markup superimposed on them.
• When just part of a section heading, or otherwise highlighted text, is wikilinked, it just plain looks terrible. Part of the reason that it looks terrible is that it interferes with communication, by forcing the reader to process the fact that this text is highlighted together, yet part of it is highlighted differently. (This deserves stating separately: Never wikilink only part of bolded or italicized text; possible exception when the italics are used to indicate quotation.) --Trovatore (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• "a WP:MOS i cant clearly find"? I think you're looking for WP:HEAD: "Section names should not normally contain links ..." Art LaPella (talk) 00:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject EastEnders/Manual of style is no longer marked as part of the Manual of Style

Wikipedia:WikiProject EastEnders/Manual of style (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as part of the Manual of Style. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Bad Sentence

Modern editions of old texts routinely replace ampersands with and (along with disused glyphs and ligatures)

Do disused glyphs partially replace ampersands, or are they replaced by and? Neither, of course, but this seems to say one or the other. 68.239.116.212 (talk) 06:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Good point, Anonymous. I have now edited Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Ampersand to fix this.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 08:05, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

BTW, I'm not that sure about "routinely". The example closest to my hands right now, i.e. my edition of Blake's poems, was printed in 2007 but it still has ampersands. Maybe it had better be replaced by "often". ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 13:30, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Sure, A di M. But that sort of edition is not a "modern edition", to borrow a term our guideline uses to make the point plainly. Of course there are editions that preserve all (or a selection) of the old variant characters, just as there are also facsimile editions. (Imagine how this looks with a "faithful" edition of Petrarch, Chaucer, or Villon.) Wikipedia articles are not normally concerned with those, and I doubt that the guideline would be improved by adverting to them at the cost of clarity.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 19:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think replacing "routinely" with "often" (or with "often routinely", to show that the ones which do that usually do that consistently) would worsen clarity that much, but that's not a great deal, anyway. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 21:38, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

May I suggest against "often routinely"? It seems a bit clunkier than we need it to be. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:40, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Digits

A recent change now says "Alternatively, render numbers that take one or two words as either words or numerals ..." Although the given examples are all multi-digit numbers, if we take those words at face value they say that alternatively, it's OK to say 6 instead of six, even if the exceptions don't apply. That would negate the main point of the section, contradict WP:MOSNUM, and be a major undiscussed change. So I presume that was a mistake. Art LaPella (talk) 21:01, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Correct. I only meant to clear up the chunkiness of the phrasing, not introduce a change in meaning. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:24, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Art. These number sections are traditionally supposed to be synchronised with WP:MOSNUM. Since recent changes, they are not: at least in their wording and markup. I have restored the intended meaning, and reworked these most basic provisions for simplicity and accuracy. I will do more, now.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:17, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I am changing "numeral" to "figure", in accord with the title of the section and because numeral includes both words and figures:

[1 ...] B n. 1 A word expressing a number. M16.
2 A figure or symbol, or a group of these, denoting a number. L17. (SOED, "numeral a. & n.")

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:02, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Range of years which has not ended

How should a range of years which has not ended be written in a title? "2007-Present" seems obvious but against standards. "2007-" seems good. "2007-2010" seems to imply that the range has ended. The current title in question is W:Financial crisis of 2007-2010. Darxus (talk) 23:38, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I've raised this before, and my preference for "Since 1999" rather than "1999–present" (which is like a rash all over popular culture infoboxes) was dismissed with a wave of the hand. I have never liked the dangling en dash, which seems to beg the death of the subject (we're waiting to complete the range ... please die). An en dash, not a hyphen, should be used for ranges. Tony (talk) 00:25, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you that "since 1999" is better than "1999–present" in many cases, but I am not sure how one would apply that to the article title. ("Financial crisis since 2007" is of course no good; and it makes me think, "Financial Crisis^TM: Since 2007!") The article ought to have a stable title, which none of "Financial crisis of 2007–Present", "Financial crisis of 2007–", "Financial crisis of 2007–2010", or "Ongoing financial crisis" can provide. (Also, the last one is something you'd hear on cable news, yuck!) You could consider "Great Recession", but I don't think that name is well-accepted enough to be the article title. You may be stuck with the present title (but with an en dash instead of a hyphen).

Why is it that we call them "recessions" or "financial crises", anyway? How about, "Panic of 2007"? It's so much more evocative. Ozob (talk) 01:16, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

I learned in history class that the difference between a recession and a depression is technically the duration of a certain numerical part of the economic downturn. If it lasts less than one year, then it's a recession, but if it lasts longer than that, it's a depression. Since then, though, the media has taken to calling depressions "recessions," probably to avoid references to the thirties. I'm pretty sure from history class that the word "panic" was retired because it sounded too panicky. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:27, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Every economist has a different definition of normal vs recession vs depression. The tabloids love the last two terms. WP should be cautious in their use. Try to think how it will be viewed in retrospect. On the closing range in the title ... I took a breath at that. Next time, let's call it "Recession starting 2007" until the period can be understood in retrospect. Tony (talk) 02:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

In Australia, the economy is considered to be in "recession" if there are two (consecutive) quarters of negative growth. I don't know if that definition is used elsewhere.  HWV258.  03:23, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Where's Ben Stein when we need him? Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

That article used to be called "Late 2000s recession", but the late 2000s are over now... (And I agree that I prefer "Since 1999" in places other than article titles.) ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 21:46, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The new decade starts 1 Jan 2011 (since there was no year 0 – a bad mistake). Therefore, the previous name was prematurely changed to something undesirably specific and predictive. Tony (talk) 23:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The 2000s are not the same thing as the 201st decade. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 01:17, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

That's true, but the 2000s is problematic because it's not clear whether they should last 10, 100, or 1000 years. In speech you could theoretically fix this by calling them the twenty-ohs, though I don't actually specifically remember hearing it in the wild. --Trovatore (talk) 01:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It's fairly obvious that "late 2000s" refers to the decade, as it's certainly not late in the 21st century. AnemoneProjectors (talk) 01:58, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

While A d M makes a good point, I agree with Trovatore. "2000's" can refer to the millennium (which technically starts in 2001, etc.) or the century or the decade. While context can make this less ambiguous, it would be better to pick a term that is specific in the first place. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:30, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, no, the 1000-year period called the 2000s started in 2000, obviously. --Trovatore (talk) 06:06, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It overlaps 99.9% with the third millennium, though. (And while it's true that 2000s has at least three meanings– here's why it's a disambiguation page, recessions seldom have a duration of the order of half a century, let alone half a millennium.) ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 12:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Some of those points were discussed recently at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 December 24#Six days left and I'm still uncomfortable calling them the "ohs", "aughts" or "noughties". How about you?.

-- Wavelength (talk) 05:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I happen to have run into this same problem today, independently, as I had to clean up after a bot that changed article prose saying "financial crisis of 2007–2009" to "financial crisis of 2007–2010". (As it happens, both the old and the new prose were not supported, as the cited source (published in 2008) talked only about the "the financial crisis of 2007–8"; what a mess, eh?) Apparently it is the style in finance to use closed ranges when talking about ongoing events, perhaps on the theory that it's bad luck to write things like "financial crisis of 2007–". No solution to this problem is satisfactory, so perhaps we should simply grit our teeth and do as the financial press does. Eubulides (talk) 06:15, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for Noetica's edits

I am very pleased to see that Noetica is making some much-needed clean-up edits to the MoS. Thank you, Noetica! Tony (talk) 00:51, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Tony. I have just been making up for time in which I did not attend to the task. Myself, I'm very pleased when one person's taking up the shovel prompts a whole team to do the same. That's happening now, and genuine WPian collaboration reigns.

We can all learn more from edits if they are explained fully in edit summaries. I hope people will make that additional effort a bit more consistently.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 02:23, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

And good to see the formatting of examples fixed. Let's also avoid "for example,...". Tony (talk) 00:51, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Defenceman

There is a requested move at Talk:Defenceman#Requested moves. The participation of others would be welcome there. Thanks!
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 22:19, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Ranges of birth and death outside biographical articles?

In biographical articles we list the range of a person's lifespan per MOS:DOB. But I've seen a fair number of non-biographical articles which also does this when introducing a new name (together with a link to that person). See here for example of what I mean. Is this in line with this style manual? If not, could we add words to that effect to MOS:DOB?

It seems to me that this "Name (year-year)" practice would only be acceptable (outside of a bio) when such dates aren't redundant, such as when the person doesn't have an article on Wikipedia. If there's a link to the person's bio, skip the dates. Any thoughts? Gabbe (talk) 09:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. While it can be fun to ride the Wikilinks from page to page, we should write articles with the assumption that people will read at least one paragraph per sitting. If the information is relevant, then we should not interrupt the reader mid-paragraph by forcing him or her to go to a new page to get it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I was just about to write the same as Darkfrog24. In most cases, it is unnecessary to do that, but in the article you link, short of following the links, the reader will have no idea of whether bacteriology was founded in the late 17th or early 20th century. ― A._di_M.^{2nd Dramaout} (formerly Army1987) 14:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that is easy to avoid: Say, "In the 19th century ..." or "In the 20th century ..." or some similar phrase. As Eubulides notes, if the researchers were properly credited with the dates of their discoveries, then this would be entirely unnecessary. Ozob (talk) 00:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

This issue is best resolved case-by-case. For Microbiology #Modern I agree that all those birth-and-death-year annotations are distracting and irrelevant. What counts for that section is not when the microbiologists died, but when they made their major contributions: although the article does not contain this more-important information, it should, and after it is modified to have it, the value of the birth and death dates will plummet to zero and they can be removed. Eubulides (talk) 19:32, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, as a non-scientist, the dates of Leeuwenhoek, Pasteur and Koch are of interest to me and something I don't know already. As one of the microscopic sliver of Wikipedia's readership who has installed WP:popups, this isn't of such great concern to me personally, but 99.95%+ of the readers don't have pop-ups, and the lead sentence of an article doesn't always include dates. On the other hand, while dates might be informative at Socialist Party of America#Prominent members, they'd probably make the whole list pretty indigestible. And adding dates to everyone's first mention in running text could be cumbersome for both editors and readers. This is probably an area where general guidance and suggestions fit better than any kind of rule. —— Shakescene (talk) 13:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Permalink template for FAQ links to consensus

I discovered what is possibly a useful template in The Signpost, for diffs:

"The election administrator stated such and such."

The syntax is {{diff|page=Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2009|diff=332592102|oldid=332588134|label=stated}}

Otherwise, there's a "Permanent link" button to the left of every page. Tony (talk) 09:28, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes {{diff}} is handy for showing changes to pages. You can see some uses of {{diff}} previously on this talk page. For permanent links to old versions, you can use {{oldid}}. Eubulides (talk) 19:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register has been UNmarked as part of the Manual of Style

Wikipedia:Manual of Style Register (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as part of the Manual of Style. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 05:14, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

What's a Style Register? How can some page that appears to be 5% complete, whatever it is for, be part of the Manual of Style? And why does what little content there is appear to be regurgitation of the MoS? — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 12:35, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

It's a work in progress, SMC. The point of the register is to provide a record of previous and current consensuses. We're trying it to see if it helps. But you are absolutely right that it is not complete and we can always just put it back on project MoS once it is. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:59, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Dashes as character entity codes vs. Unicode

Unresolved

 – Topic was deferred and archived but is actually unconnected to other issues and still under active discussion.

[I have boldly put SMcCandlish's post in a subsection (see next), added a subsection making an opposing case, and added a third subsection for discussion. I propose that editors judiciously add to the first two subsections, to improve each case, but confine actual discussion to the dedicated third subsection. –_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T–]

A case for character entity codes

• The MOS should
  1. Recommend explicitly that en-dashes, em-dashes and minus signs be done as the character entity codes –, — and −, respectively, rather than the corresponding Unicode characters
  2. Defer to WP:MOSMATH on minus signs in actual formulas
  3. Not recommend (i.e., remain silent on the idea) that the Unicode characters be removed from the editing tools
  4. Forbid bots from changing these character entities to Unicode characters.

The rationales, given many times but repeated here in case anyone missed them:

• The glyphs for these characters are completely or nearly indistinguishable in many fonts, meaning that for many editors the only way to be certain the proper character is being used when an entity code is not present is for the editor to replace the character with the entity code.
• The glyphs for these characters are completely or nearly indistinguishable for many very constructive and active editors due to their eyesight, even with glasses on and regardless of font, resulting in the same must-use-entities-for-certainty issue.
• The editing tools below the edit window should still have the Unicode characters, as they are easy to use, having the correct Unicode character in place is better than having a normal hyphen where it does not belong, and we can't expect non-technical editors to memorize entity codes, just to not remove them.
• Bots (and AWB scripts and other judgment-reducing tools) replacing entity codes are undoing conscious human-editor work that improved the editability of the encyclopedia, and even probably reduced disputes (see example below).
• The minor increase in edit-window clutter is small price to pay for correct dashes, as edit mode is cluttered anyway, and is more cluttered all the time as increasing amounts of plain prose are replaced by typing-aid templates and other code.
• Accessibility: Many more screen readers for the visually impaired, as well as old browsers on old computers (remember the other kind of accessibility - en.wikipedia is also for impoverished English speakers and entire nations of them such as Jamaica and Belize) have better support for basic character entity codes than for Unicode, if any for the latter at all.

While I've frequently had issues and frustrations with dashes for vision and font reasons, and even gotten in brief arguments with other editors about the matter, I never saved any clear diffs. I just ran into one, however, which is clearly evidentiary of the fact that the use of Unicode in these cases is causing real problems for real editors: Talk:Pleonasm#Article issues (as of this diff). Fortunately both editors in this case were communicative, patient and clueful, but that holy trinity is not always with us...

Nothing about the other dash-related issues under discussion would affect this proposal in any way, nor vice versa.

Proposed language

It is preferable that en-dashes, em-dashes and minus signs be input as the character entity reference codes –, — and −, respectively, rather than the Unicode characters –, — and −, so that it is clear in editing mode which character is being used, and because the codes are more accessible in current screen readers and in older browsers than the Unicode. However, it is still better for non-technical users to insert the Unicode character called for, via the editing tools below the edit window, rather than use hyphens indiscriminately.

Or something like that. Left out any mention of MOSMATH (I don't know it well).

— SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 12:31, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

[Please discuss in the dedicated subsection below the next one.]

A case against character entity codes

• MOS should not prefer character entity codes (–, —, and −) over the Unicode equivalents (–, —, and −).
• For now, the means of input for these characters should be left open.

The rationale:

• While –, —, and − may be hard to distinguish in some fonts, at least their identity (as "dashes" of some sort) and their functions are immediately apparent in the edit screen. On the other hand, –, —, and − are meaningless and intimidating to most editors. Even for experienced and tech-savvy editors they can be hard to input without error. For most editors they are difficult to read when combined (as they often must be) with the character entity code for the hard space:

Clapham Junction – Brighton

to yield

Clapham Junction – Brighton.

Realistically, editors cannot be expected to read that comfortably in the edit screen, or to know how to do it. It is hard enough making provision for hard spaces alone, or en dashes alone: but combined, the character entity versions of these are murder.

• Friendly and transparent coding for the hard space should be revisited first, since it is a natural accessory to these other glyphs. See WT:NOWRAP, the developed proposal for ,, as markup for the hard space (linked from WT:NOWRAP), and the extensive discussion leading to that proposal, in userspace at User:Noetica/ActionMOSVP (see also its Archive), and see extensive reports and discussion in the MOS talkpage archives.
• Proposals for inputting characters need wide discussion and consultation, and need to be considered from the point of view of the naive editor. We MOS editors, certainly editors over at MediaWiki_talk:Edittools, and definitely the developers themselves – we all too easily leave that perspective behind. We must not.
• This whole issue is surely frustrating for those with a clear view of how the Unicode solution fails; it is also frustrating for those who understand how the alternative solution fails. We should not jump either one of these two ways, but leave the question honestly unresolved: at least while it remains unresolvable. Either premature resolution would distract from the larger task of finding truly enlightened technical reforms, with contributions from MOS editors and the larger community, and not weighted the developers' and tech-heads' way. They do not have a monopoly on wisdom, simply because they dominate behind the scenes on Wikipedia.

[Please discuss in the dedicated subsection below.]

Discussion: character entity codes vs. Unicode

[I propose that we confine all discussion, for and against, to this subsection.–⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T–]

• I disagree with the statement "at least their identity and their functions are immediately apparent in the edit screen." Their identity is anything but apparent, and identity of the dash-like characters available for insertion by clicking below the edit window is equally unapparent.
• A neutral position must include a prohibition against bots converting in either direction. --Jc3s5h (talk) 00:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Good point about "identity", J. I have amended it: "at least their identity (as "dashes" of some sort) and their functions are immediately apparent in the edit screen." That's what I meant. And I agree about the bots.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:09, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

There are actually two issues here: 1. Whether or not Unicode should be allowed. 2. Whether or not entity codes should be allowed. It's not an either-or situation. Our only real restriction is that we must allow at least one of these forms. Right now, Wikipedia allows both. The entity codes look better in more kinds of fonts, but the Unicodes are easier for newcomers to recognize and use. I am in favor of permitting both and letting the editor decide whether or not he or she is up to going to the extra effort of finding and typing in the entity code. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:15, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I would also add that, in cases where a minus sign and hyphen look identical to the reader, then we can assume that the given character is doing its job—communicating with the reader—equally well regardless of whether it is "really" a hyphen or minus sign. The only time that would be an issue would be when two readers are viewing the same article, one in a font that renders hyphens and minus signs differently and another in a font that does not. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that we should allow both. I prefer the Unicode as it is visible while editing. I have no idea about the use of entities upon searches in Wikipedia, but I have had the experience in the past where using entity codes in text messes up search results, e.g. where 'something&endash;anything' is in the text and you can't find the something when you search for it. It should not be a problem technically to display Unicode dashes anymore, the only problem is in entering it on a keyboard. I have yet to figure out how to enter it on a Mac, myself. ʘ alaney2k ^talkʘ 19:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Logical quotation - there's only one relevant argument

I'm getting a little tired of these heavy-handed attempts to obfuscate this issue as much as possible (cf. editwarring on the FAQ subpage), by making up reasons that are allegedly behind logical quotation being recommended by MoS, ignoring the real one, and then attacking the bogus ones as bad reasons. This is known as the straw man fallacy. Let's just be really clear about this. There is only one reason, only one point that has any relevance to MoS and WP policy. Not two points, not four. One.

MoS does not call for logical quotation because it "looks better" (a subjective artsy-fartsy notion of no importance here). Nor is it because LQ is "more intuitive" (which it almost certainly is for a majority of people, but this too is subjective, and people with a really, really deep-seated preference for the largely American typesetter's quotation style find that more intuitive, as someone keeps browbeating into us as if we didn't already understand this, several years ago. Nor is it because LQ is "simpler" or "easier" (typing ". when warranted is no in any way less or more complicated that ."); actually the decision is less simple, because in logical quotation the punctuation is placed inside or outside for a reason that requires thinking – because it actually belongs there – not always inside regardless of what the results of doing that might be.

We use logical quotation here for a simple, singular, factual, objective reason: It preserves quotations intact, without falsely inserting punctuation into them that wasn't there in the originals (or leaving the reader to wonder whether this has been done, on a quotation-by-quotation basis). Please Darkfrog24, stop mischaracterizing the nature of the debate and engaging in fallacious editwarring. The reason for the choice is grounded in WP:V and WP:NOR. Going with typesetters' quotation (there is no "American" or "British" quotation, as has already been proven in these recurring debates - there are US publications that use logical quotation and UK ones that use typesetter's) has no basis but subjective WP:ILIKEIT notions.

Darkfrog24, we all really, really, really understand that you really, really, really prefer typesetters' quotation. Like, there seriously isn't any way you could make that clearer, and badgering multiple MOS pages with more and more about this, day in and day out to obstruct progress is not going to get you anywhere.

PS: See in particular WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:NOTUNANIMITY. PPS: I am not questioning your surely good-faith motives, only your judgment of the situation and how to handle it. WP's usage of logical quotation is very, very stable, and is in place for a sound, rational reason. Consensus can change but it doesn't do so on something like this without a really good reason. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 18:07, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

SMC, I would be delighted if the ban on American punctuation were lifted and if someone else brings the matter up again I will support it, but that's not what I'm trying to do right now. I just don't think that the FAQ should make any false statements about what LQ is or why it's there. LQ does not actually preserve text better in practice. LQ does not actually make statements less ambiguous. I realize that most of the people on this board really like that system, but that is why it is in the MoS.

The idea that American punctuation creates ambiguity is a myth. In American English, it is understood that the closing period or comma is part of the quotation process just like the quotation marks are. It's like saying that British spelling makes it look like "center" is pronounced "senn-treh." It's been that way for over a hundred years without actually causing this kind of trouble.

I agree entirely that aesthetics should not be a factor here. People are just as likely to find one system visually appealing as the other.

While some of the arguments you present, such as it being easier to use codes with LQ, might make a case for allowing LQ on Wikipedia, they don't make the case for banning American and British standards. I am sure that some editors would not mind going to a little extra effort to use correct American or British forms.

Back to the FAQ, Pi Zero just proposed a new answer. What do you think of it? Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, just because some American publications prefer LQ or British styles or some British publications prefer LQ or American doesn't mean that they aren't American and British. There are Chicago-style pizza restaurants in New York, but that doesn't make them New-York-style pizzas. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:32, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Only for those who are obsessed with fracturing the language into flag-waving national entities. Tony (talk) 23:05, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Tony, there is a British variation of English and an American one and an Australian one. I'm sure that you've heard people speak and read books and newspapers and seen this for yourself. The differences were there a long time before you or I got here and they're still going to be there, in some form, a long time after we're gone. I am not inventing them. I think the real difference between our views on this matter is that you believe that Wikipedia should push some artificial homogenized English and I think that it should reflect the language the way it actually is. Wikipedia respects and celebrates this diversity with regard to spelling. It should go all the way and do it with punctuation too. New York and Chicago pizzas both taste great. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:02, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Re SMC: we use logical quotation because that is the established style. When used as recommended here, logical quotation is far from the most source-based and precise way of punctuating quotations. For example, the Chicago manual has a much stricter method which they recommend for literary studies and other situations where exact preservation of the original is intended. In Wikipedia, we do not try to achieve that level of precision. So the argument that we use logical quotations because they preserver the original best is simply bogus. The choice to use logical quotation is mostly one of taste, but we seem to have selected it in any case. We might as well be honest about that in the FAQ. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:56, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register has been marked as part of the Manual of Style

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as part of the Manual of Style. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:COMMENT

I suggest the section WP:COMMENT should have a link like:

Further information: Help:Hidden text

62.147.9.169 (talk) 10:33, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Register has been marked as part of the Manual of Style

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Register (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as part of the Manual of Style. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)/Register has been marked as part of the Manual of Style

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)/Register (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has recently been edited to mark it as part of the Manual of Style. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Relevant discussion

There is a discussion occurring at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Wikipedia Citation Style. Your participation would be appreciated.
— V = I * R (talk to Ohms law) 23:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for posting this; it's fascinating. I think it may be a while before I make up my own mind on this issue, but so many people have raised such interesting points. Do you know where I could find an accounting of the problems that the current system is supposed to have raised? That seems to be the real cincher, how much trouble the current way of doing things is or isn't causing. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:55, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Ellipsis nbsp

WP:ELLIPSIS says "Use non-breaking spaces ( ) only as needed to prevent improper line breaks, for example: ... To keep the ellipsis from wrapping to the next line ("France, Germany, ... and Belgium but not the USSR")." I think this means that every ellipsis should be preceded by an nbsp. But the word "only" means a contrast to something bigger, so what does it mean? We only need an nbsp every time? Art LaPella (talk) 01:27, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Noetica and I discussed this above under "Ellipsis character rationale". It's complicated; my best guess at the rules is:

1. If an ellipsis is adjacent to a punctuation mark, there is a space on the other side of the ellipsis, and either (1) the punctuation mark comes in enclosing pairs, as quotation marks or brackets do, and the ellipsis is enclosed, or (2) the punctuation mark stands alone, then the space on the other side of the ellipsis is non-breaking.
2. If an ellipsis is separated from a punctuation mark by a space, and if that punctuation mark either (1) comes in enclosing pairs and encloses the ellipsis, or (2) stands alone, then the space is non-breaking.
3. Otherwise, the space is breaking.

But I'm not too sure. Should there be a non-breaking space in "We discussed ... good style"? Noetica prefers not to share his own solution, and I suspect there are problems with the rules I gave above. Ozob (talk) 02:57, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

If the ellipsis points wrap over to the next line, the effect is not good; however, I'm easy about not inserting the hard-space before the points where they occur towards the start of the first line of a quotation. BTW, when are we going to have a short-cut allocated to hard-spaces? Tony (talk) 10:06, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Headings

Do we provide advice on the use of two or more subheadings under a heading? If not, I think we should. I can't stand seeing a single H3 under an H2. I did a quick search and I can't figure where on earth I ever got that idea, but I'm positive it was required of me by some manual. --Andy Walsh (talk) 04:34, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Has the auto-archiving bot been disabled here?

This talk page is now gigantic. What happened to the auto? If it needs to be re-installed, I know Dank55 is good at doing that. Tony (talk) 10:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

• No, it is set to archive after a thread has been 'dead' for 10 days. Since people continued to add to the endash thread up until 14 January, the bot has not cut in. I have forced archiving that discussion (consisting of half the kb), which quite frankly wasn't going anywhere. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 15:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

New MOS template

Users are advised that a Template:MOS has been created for use at that top of articles that have significant compliance problems. It can be inserted simply as:

{{MOS}}

However, the date of posting should normally be included, thus:

{{MOS|date=January 2010}}

to render this:

Thanks to User:Ohconfucius for arranging this. Tony (talk) 11:38, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

...improve the "talk" page? I'm pretty sure talk pages like this one are not governed by the MoS so I think you might have a typo. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

• The template is identical to other Cleanup templates, such as {{Cleanup}}. It looks up the page type according to where this template is placed. When placed on an article, it will read 'Wikipedia article'. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 14:58, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

• That function has now been disabled. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 15:25, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

• FYI, there is a side conversation about this template's uses going on here. --Andy Walsh (talk) 15:27, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Comma use

An IP has told me that when talking about cities, this is correct:

from Baltimore, Maryland, to Indianapolis, Indiana,

I do not agree with the comma after Maryland and Indiana, so who is correct? I do not see anything in the MOS about this either. Eagles 24/7 (C) 17:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

No commas following the state names. --Andy Walsh (talk) 17:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I say yes, enclose the state (or country) in commas, just as we do for years in US-style dates (On July 4, 1776, the United States declared independence from Great Britain. The publishers were in London, England, before moving to New York.). ¶ Grammatically, the country, state or year are in apposition to the city or day, and the sentence would read grammatically if they were omitted: (One would drive in a northwesterly direction from Baltimore to Indianapolis along the major Interstate highways. There are many such sites in Paris, London, and Rome. The Continental Congress met for several weeks before signing the Declaration of Independence on July 4 and then adjourning) [The last is for demonstration only: the historical detail is hypothetical and may well be flat wrong.] ¶ Practically speaking, the comma is one of those punctuation marks that does far too many different jobs, so leaving one comma between Baltimore and Maryland without closing with another comma makes it appear that there's a major break in the sentence where in fact there is not. (He drove through the rain from Baltimore, Maryland to his girlfriend's house in Chicago.) —— Shakescene (talk) 18:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

That's a nice example, Shakescene, but the comma would be there after the year regardless. What's really going on is "On [time] [comma] this happened." So we'd say, "On Tuesday, this happened." There doesn't seem to be such a separate reason for putting the comma after the name of the state.

However, when in doubt, we should check the style guides. Got my trusty Bedford right here... ...or not. I ran a quick search (It seems that Google searching for "comma after state" brings up a lot of Second Amendment issues.) and according to English plus the comma after the state is optional, at least when writing addresses. It doesn't mention ordinary prose. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Found my handbook. It says that yes, the elements of the address should be set off with commas, as the IP has said, but it does not state a rationale. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:12, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

The Bedford is a severely limited guide, with a parochial, unenlightened, print-based, and outdated approach to practically everything. I recommend against relying on it. Still, I favour the comma after the state name, for the reasons Shakescene provides. Local practice (in special-purpose rulesheets like postal guides, and the like) may differ. If it does, it should be overridden for an online international encyclopedia for all speakers of English.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 21:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

When ZIP Codes first arrived and displaced the older format of indicating postal zones (New York, 10, New York or New York, 10, N.Y. became New York, NY  10010), there was some popular uncertainty about where and whether to place commas. The standard United States Postal Service practice, when addressing an envelope, is to drop the comma after the state, as above; and ideally to leave two typewriter spaces between the state abbreviation and the ZIP Code. However, one would add a comma after the ZIP Code if adding the country: New York, NY  10010, United States of America or New York, NY  10010, U.S.A. . That is, of course, a slightly different question from how to treat the commas in running prose. —— Shakescene (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree with this direction at all. Are you saying that if you wrote, "I threw a cricket bat from Miami, Florida to Atlanta, Georgia" that would cause confusion in any reader? It appears there is a "major break" in the sentence? No, I don't think so. You read "Miami, Florida" as a single entity because your brain is trained to recognize the name of a city. Adding the comma after "Florida" makes an awkward hiccup that I would edit out 100% of the time. --Andy Walsh (talk) 22:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

• (e.c.) The comma might be OK in the first example here, but usually it is very clunky. I recommend against its use as a standard. Tony (talk) 22:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:COPYEDIT#Common edits is part of the Manual of Style, so commas after states is a standard. See the 7th bullet point. Heaven forfend I should debate whether it should be a standard, but it is a standard I have often enforced. Art LaPella (talk) 02:29, 20 January 2010 (UTC)