Talk:Persians

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Dec 27 2005 – Feb 27 2006

Disambiguation links

The large number of disambiguation links at the top of this article are not needed, because Persian is the disambiguation page for all the terms. Persian links to this article, Parsis, and Persian Empire, which is why I removed those links - unneeded links are not needed, see Wikipedia:Disambiguation. The link to Tajiks is appropriate to stay in, since it is not linked to at Persian. However, I see the reason for linking to the other pages, but it might be better to link directly to Persian instead, which both reduces the number of unneeded links and gives a wider range of alternate meanings. Thoughts? -- Natalya 17:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality problems

Iran has been occupied by Mongols, Turkic, and Arab peoples - each for more than 200 years. Modern Persian has lots of Arabic and Turkish loan words. You don't think this is part of their history? Aucaman^Talk 01:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

First of all, we are talking about Persians, not all Iranians. There are Turks and Arabs in Iran and they are just called what they are, Turks and Arabs. Second of all, I am unaware of any mass-migration of Arabs and Mongols into Iran while Iran was occupied by the Arab and Mongol armies. Unless you have a reliable source to prove that Persians, as an entire community, were genetically modified by the Arabs and Mongols, I will remove the "dispute" tag. --ManiF 01:51, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand the difference between and ethnic group and a race. An ethnic group is determined by its language and culture, whereas a race is determined by history and lineage. This article is about ethnic groups. You can have Kurdish Persians or Arab Persians (those of Kurdish or Arab roots who identify with Persians culturally and linguistically). You can even have Persian Jews. But your definitions seem to come from works of Nazi Germany. Aucaman^Talk 02:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It is true that many different invaders conquered and ruled Iran for many centuries. However, the numbers of those invaders were very small compared to large population of Persians and other Iranic groups. The number of invading Mongols (that means the entire army of Chingiz Khan) was max. 400.000, together with some Mongol nomads, the number was max. 1.5m. The same goes to the Turkic nomads of Central-Asia (up to the time of Seljuqs and Ottomans): always a very small number of invaders. The population of the Iranican population was more than 20m at that time. That's what experts say about this:

• " ... Around the third century B.C., groups speaking Turkish languages (...) threatened empires in China, Tibet, India, Central Asia, before eventually arriving in Turkey ... genetic traces of their movement can sometimes be found, but they are often diluted, since the numbers of conquerors were always much smaller than the populations they conquered (p.125) ... Turks ... conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453. ... Replacement of Greek with Turkish ... Genetic effects of invasion were modest in Turkey. Their armies had few soldiers (...) invading Turkish populations would be small relative to the subject populations that had a long civilization and history ... " - [Dr. Cavalli-Sforza, Luigi (2000). Genes, Peoples and Languages. New York: North Point Press. S.125, 152]

• "... incoming minorities (...) conquer other populations and (...) impose their languages on them. The Altaic family spread in this fashion ..." - [Colin Renfrew, World linguistic diversity, Scientific American, 270(1), 1994, S.118]

• "... many Armenian and Azeri types are derived from European and northern Caucasian types (p.1263) ... The U5 cluster ... in Europe ... although rare elsewhere in the Near east, are especially concentrated in the Kurds, Armenians and Azeris ... a hint of partial European ancestry for these populations – not entirely unexpected on historical and linguistic grounds (p.1264) ..." -[Richards et al., (2000). Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. American Journal of Human Genetics, 67, S.1263-1264, 2000]

So, even in Turkey, the "genetic influence" of ORIGINAL Turks is modest (that means that the modern Turkish population is actually "Turkic-speaking Iranians, Armenians and Greeks"). All in one, one can say that Persians are an "ethnic group". Of course, the influence of Arabic as the language of Islam is important. But - theoretically - Persian could remove most of the Arabic words and replace them with Persian equivalents.

Tajik 14:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

You are changing the subject. This article is about Persians who are an ethnic group, and a race. There are no "Kurdish Persians" or "Arab Persians". The fact that Iranian Jews are also referred to as "Persian Jews" is because "Persian" used to be a nationality as well, before 1930's and that's where the term comes from. Again, you just throw "strawman arguments" in when you can't substanciate any of your claims that Persians the ethnic group and race were somehow genetically modified by the Arabs and Mongols. --ManiF 02:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

This Aucaman character is full of you know what. Give it up buddy, eithr put up a source that supports your outrageous statements about persians being a mix this group and that group or stop taking our time with your self-invented revisionist history. --194.170.175.5 06:42, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Please aim for dispassionate communication from now on, 194.; keep WP:Civility in mind. Thanks. El_C 11:05, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Aucaman, the majority here disagree with you on this matter and they have supported their statements with facts. All the ethnicity articles go with mainstream accepted historical theories, in regards to the origins of the people in question, not personal assumptions and conclusions. Please either provide a valid source to support your objection or remove the dispute tag as desired by the majority. --194.170.175.5 16:01, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

---

Well let me explain myself again. Go to the Persian Empire article and look at the timeline on the right side. Not counting the Islamic Republic, 26 different empires have ruled over Iran. Out of these 26, 14 of them are NOT Iranian. They include pre-Iranian groups such as the Elamites, and various Turkic, Turkmen, Mongol, Greek, and Arab rulers. Go check. That means the majority of the people ruling Iran were not Iranian. You actually believe these people came in, conquered, and calmly left? You actually believe they left? Where did the Mongols go? Back to Mongolia??? Where did the Arabs go? No. These people remained occupiers for generations. In most cases they extended their roots into local populations. In light of what I've said, you really think think the following statement is accurate?

"The Persians of Iran are descended from the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranians, an Aryan (Indo-European) (See:Aryan race) people that migrated to the region during the 2nd millennium BC, as well as indigenous populations such as the Elamites."

So first we had the Elamites and then the Iranians came, and life was happy thereafter? No contact with any other people, right? Now it is somehow "fair" to the Iranian people to ignore most of their history because it doesn't serve some racial theory of a pure "Aryan race"?

And no, the dispute tag will remain there until either the section is removed or replaced with something more accurate. Who says Persian is a race is a race anyway? Aucaman^Talk 16:12, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Read what Tajik said again. Invading populations were small relative to the subject populations to have any significant "genetic influence" on the subject populations. Besides, this article is about Persians in particular. There are many established non-native Iranian populations such as Arabs who trace their roots to the occupiers you are talking about. You must either provide a direct reliable source to backup the validity of your argument, a source that supports your statement that "The modern Persians are an amalgamation of a wide variety of peoples" or remove the "dispute tag", and stop your bullying.

The comments indicate that the majority consensus that the Persians are mostly descended from Indo-Europeans. This a fact, supported by an overwhelming body of evidence. --ManiF 17:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

- Aucaman, the statement does not say "Persians are genetically 100% pure aryan blood"!! - it simply states where Persians came from. It is not an arguable fact. It is taught everyday in schools in Iran, and every other academical institute where this issue is discussed. You have no point but to give headache to Iranian Wikipedians. Stop wasting our time. --Kash 20:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The points made by Kash and ManiF are very true. Anyone who has studied the history of the Persian Empire knows that most people who currently live in Iran are in fact descendents of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-Europeans. It is also true that Persia over the thousands of years has come in contact with many other cultures and people, but that does not mean they have some how entered our blood and have now changed Persians. The whole idea of this happening is nonsense and many people in this page agree with that. --(Aytakin) | Talk 21:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

To Mani and Aucaman

Both sides could you please tell me your point of view (with no personal attack to other) I couldn't get it from your comments, I've had an extensive study in Iranian history and if I wasn't a computer engineering I definitely would have been a Iranologist ! , jokes aside, I might be a help if you guys let me see your POV's. Amir86 18:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

picture

what is the matter with the picture on this page? every time I visit it has changed and now it is totally gone!! what is wrong with it?

Gol 02:18, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The picture which was up previously contained copyrighted elements which are not licensed for use on Wikipedia. Because our use here is merely decorative we can not claim fair use. A new collage which features only free images would be welcome. --Gmaxwell 03:09, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

There are as many Persians in this world as there are Sumerians, Ancient Egyptians, Toltecs,and Neanderthals. The only thing Persian about the country of Iran is its geography. The Persian part exists neither etnically nor culturally.

I'm sorry, but that is by far the most volatile and uneducated comment I have ever read. The ethnicity and culture of the persians of from the time of the Achaemenids still exist to-day in Iran. Although it is true that many roots of Indo-Iranians exist in parts of europe, Asia, and Africa, it is even more true that Iran by far has the most connections to its past (PERSIA). --(Aytakin) | Talk 19:30, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

History of Mixing of Persians and Arabs

1. In 651-671, Ziad settled a permanant garrison of 50,000 Arabs of Tamim and Bakr from Basrah and Kufa at Merv, which became the main center for defense and expansion on the north-eastern frontier (in Khorasan) Encyclopaedia Iranica, p.208, under Arab Conquest of Iran.
2. Whereas Arab settlement in western and southren Iran tended to be relatively small, the colonization of eastern Iran (Khorasan) was both extensive and systematic. Tribesmen of Bakr bin Wael were established in Qohestan and garrisons of troops were certainly quartered at Nishapur and Merv.This policy can be explained in part as an effort to relieve the surplus population pressures in the Iraqi camp cities (Encyclopaedia Iranica, p.213).
3. In 730 CE, Jonayd bin Abd-al-Rahman sent 20,000 Arabs (half from Basrah and half from Kufa) to Khorasan. At the time of Qotayba bin Moslem governorship (early 8th century), there were 40,000 Basran, 7,000 Kufan troops in Khorasan, the Arabs coming from the tribes of Bakr, Tamim, Abd-al-Qays and Azd.
4. Because of the distance from Iraq and the attractiveness of the country, large numbers of these soldiers acquired lands in villages throughout Khorasan, married local women or brought their families from Iraq, and settled permanently in the province. This implies that the Arab population in Khorasan must have been huge in comparison to that in western Iran. Even if the primary component of the Arab colony in Khorasan was limited to just the 50,000 families settled there by Rabi bin Ziad, the total Arab population would have to be estimated at close to a quarter of a million people.(Encyclopaedia Iranica, under Arab settlements in Iran,p.213).
5. Because of the common danger on the Khorasani frontie, Iranians and Arabs overcame their initial antipathy and cooperated extensivle in military operations. In addition to military garrisons, the Arabs included merchants, artisans, religious scholars, landlords, peasants, beggards, vagabonds and badits. It was natural that in time these groups blended in with their Khorasani counterparts. These speacial circumstances in Khorasan, which integrated Arabs and Iranians into a common social fabric, facilitated the assimilation of Iranian culture by the Arabs and the gradual acceptance of much of Arab culture(above all the religion), by their Iranian subjects and peers..(Encyclopaedia Iranica, under Arab settlements in Iran,p.214). Heja Helweda 22:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

History of mixing of Persians and Arabs , Part II

1. By 696, Arabs from the tribes of Rabia and Ejl were residing in Hamadan. The population of Qazvin seems to have been mainly Arab in the mid 9th century CE. Qom too became a predominantly Arab town: The Banu Asad moved to the Qom region during the revolt of Mokhtar bin Abi Obayda in 687 CE. Some of the Tamim established themselves in Jay(today Isfahan).
2. During the Abbasid period many more Arabs moved into the eastern caliphate, especially into southern Persia.
3. By the 10th century CE, most of the population of the town of Mahan, near Kerman had become Arab.
4. Following the fall of the Abbasid dynasty, the flow of Arab immigrants into Persia gradually diminished, but nevertheless continued. In 1522, Shah Ismail I, gave lands in Khorasan and Fars province to refugees from the Ottoman Empire, including a group of Ghazali Arabs.
5. In present-day Iran, there are still many families and tribes whose Arab origin can be traced.
6. There are several groups of Arabs in central Persia. In the late 1890s, A. Houtum-Schindler wrote that certain families of Qom and Kashan call themselves Arabs, with very little semitic blood.
7. In his list of the tribes of the Tehran region, M. Kayhan included six of Arab origin: Arab Hajji Agha Soltani(700 families), Arab Koti(600 families), Arab Mishmast(200 families), Arab Halwai(250 families), Arab Shahnani(150 families) and Arab Kushkali.
8. According to J.M.Jouanin, in the early 1800s, there was an Arab tribe by the name of Ardestani that lived in the Ardestan area, midway between Kashan and Nain, and comprised some 6,000 individuals. (Encyclopaedia Iranica, under Arab tribes of Iran, pp.215-217).Heja Helweda 23:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

History of Mixing of Arabs and Persians, Part III

1. Khorasan has a large Arab population. Many Arabs have settled down near Shahrud, where the inhabitants are designated as Arab o Ajam(Arabs and Iranians). By 1875, they had intermarried so extensively with Iranians and even Turks that the three groups were undistinguishable in feature and language. This tribe was called Bastami and was said to comprise some 12,000 to 15,000 individuals in the early 1800s.
2. Further east, there are Arabs in the west of Nishapur, and there is a tribe by the name of Il-e Arab in west of Sarakhs. In 1950s, there were still two villages in that district in which Arabic was spoken.
3. There are Arabs around both Kashmar and Torbat-e Jam, most of whom are Arab Mishmat. In the 1890s, the Arabs of Torbat-e Jam totaled some 4,000 families.
4. There are also Arabs in the vicinity of Torbat-e Haydari. According to local tradition, they are descendants of some 1,000 Arab families that Nader Shah transplanted to Khorasan.
5. Futher south, a large group of Arabs resides in the vicinity of Ferdows. Jouannin estimated their number at upwards to 20,000.
6. Finally, most of the inhabitants of the Dehestan of Arabkhana (pop. 10,598 in 1951), southwest of Birjand are Arab.
7. G.N. Curzon asserted that the Timuri who lived in northwestern Afghanistan and in the rural districts of Jannatabad, Torbat-e Jam, Tayebad and Khaf on the Persian side of the Afghan border, are of Arab origin.

(Encyclopaedia Iranica, p.217, under Arab tribes of Iran) Heja Helweda 23:23, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

History of mixing of Persians and Arabs, Part IV

1. There are Arab tribes all along Iran's southern littoral. The most important are the Domuk, Ro'usa, Amrani, Obaydeli, Al-e Haram, Al-e 'Ali, Marzughi and Qawasim. The Domuk inhabit seven villages in Chah Kutah between Borazjan and Bushehr. In the early 1900s, they comprised 150 households. The Ro'usa inhabit 14 villages in an area extending from 11 km northwest of Khormoj(Bushehr province) to the mouth of the Mund river. In the early 1900s, they numbered some 1500 individuals.
2. The Al-e Ali tribe live in the samll seaports of Tabuna, Charak and Dovvan, on the Qays(Kish) Island, and on the Shibkuh coast west of Bandar Lenga. In the early 1900s, they numbered some 3,500 individuals.
3. In the Fars province, there is a large Arab tribe, the Il-e Arab of the Khamsa tribal confederacy. They have their summer quarters in northeast of Shiraz and their winter quarters in Sarvestan, Lar and Furg. In the 1940s, the tribe comprised some 11,100 families.
4. Two formerly independent Arab tribes in the Fars province, the Baha-al-dini and the Shiri, have by now absorbed by the larger groups, the first by the Qashqai trbe and the second by the Arab Khumsa tribe.
5. Jouanin mentions an Arab tribe by the name of Aghakhani which in the early 1800s, comprised some 20,000 individuals. Encyclopaedia Iranica, under Arab tribes of Iran, p.218-219). Heja Helweda 23:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

History of mixing of Persians and Arabs, Part V

1. There are several Arab tribes in Kerman province. In the Sirjan region dwell the Ataallahi. Once numerous, they totaled some 6,000 individuals in the early 1800s. Also there are Arabkhani Sorkhi (250 families in 1930s), and Badui tribes (300 families in the 1930s). In the Pariz region are the Arab-e Hajji Hosayni who in 1920s numbered some 200 families.
2. Jouannin cites an Arab tribe by the name of Kermani that comprised some 7,000 or 8,000 individuals in the early 1800s.
3. Sedentary peasants and some 19th century travelers have given the name Araba to the majority of semi-nomadic tribes in the Tehran region. The Arabs seem to have established themselves long ago near the capital, Tehran, as is shown by the existence of a dehestan(village) to the south of Varamin named Behnam-e Arab. They were formerly numerous in the upper valleys of Karaj and Jajrud up to 1965. Their present summer quarters are in the high valley of Taleghan, in Larijan and in the mountains of Damavand.
4. There is also another Arabic-speaking tribe inthe region of Tehran that of the Koti, originating from Shiraz. Some 300 families still move to the summer pastures in the upper valley of Lar. Several families have settled down on hill slopes in Damavand.(Encyclopaedia Iranica, under Arab tribes of Iran, pp. 219-220). Heja Helweda 23:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

All these extensive mixing of Arabs and Persians deserve some mention in the article.

Heja Helweda 23:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Why is this information under "mixing" of arabs and Persians? All it says is that there are Arab tribes, and they were in Iran at one point or another. There is no argument over the fact that Arabs exist in Iran. According to CIA worldbook, 3% of Iran is of Arab ethnicity. Now you can have all the wet dreams you want about some arabs and Iranians mixing, however it does not belong to Persian people article, I also recommend finding something else to do in your life beside wasting time. Thanks, --Kash 09:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Sourced information

If you found materials from credible sources who oppose these information please inform me. Amir85 6:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Who are you addressing and what are you talking about? Aucaman^Talk 11:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The Word Aryan

Could somebody please tell me why there is such a desire to remove the word "Aryan" from this article ? IN EVERY SINGLE CREDIBLE HISTORICAL BOOK IT IS STATED THAT PERSIANS ARE ORIGINATED FROM AN AYRAN (INDO-IRANIAN) BRANCH. YOU WANDER HOW DID THEY FIGURE IT OUT ? BECAUSE ITS ALL RECORDED IN ANCIENT INSCRIPTOINS FROM DARIUS I's BEISTON TO SHAPUR I'S IN NAGH-I RUSTAM TO KHOSRAU II's ROCK RELIEVES IN TAQ-E BOSTAN TO MODERN HISTORY OF IRAN.Amir85 10:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This is why. You see how it says "No longer in technical use"? I'm not sure what sources you're talking about, but a lot of sources says that Persian is an Iranian language. This is mosly due to linguistic reasons, not racial or necessarily historical. The word "Aryan" simply has no place here. Can you tell me what you think it means and how you're using it? Aucaman^Talk 11:09, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Aryan (Ariaee) was the name those original Indo-iranians used and wanted to be called. While in India, where I'm living "No longer in technical use" but in Iran, Kurdistan and Afghanistan is pretty much in use. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language translation of Aryan looks superficial and incorrect, the original Indo-iranians unlike whats shown in media's they were blond-haired and blue-eyed just as is it depicted in Ajanta caves or Greek historian Xenophon described them. Its quite visible among Iranian people. Amir85 13:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

If you can prove that 51% of persians are blond-haired and blue-eyed then we can say majority of Persians are decendant from those Indo-iranian or Aryan or whatever you call it. But actually you never can prove that, because they are not. In fact Persians are an amalgamation of indigenois peoples of Iranian platue + Arabic imigrants + Mongolian imigrants + Turkic imigrants who have lived and resided there for thousands years. Modern Persians Aryan layer is too weak and only linguistic. Ancient Aryans have nothing to do with modern Fars (here Persian) people. Besides in the article I do not see any mention of "Fars" while the name of Modern Persians is "Fars".

AbdulRahman 13:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The description of Aryans as "blond-haired and blue-eyed" is a Nazi myth created in the 19th century. For example, the Parsi population of India who migrated to India right after the Arab conquest of Persia, and usually do not intermarry with with the local population, look anything but blond-haired and blue-eyed. It's a established fact that Persians are of Aryan lineage. Your assumptions about mass genetic influence of invading armies are what they are, mere assumptions, not fact. The burden of proof is on you, if you have any direct quote from a primary source that says "modern Persians are an amalgamation of this and that", please present it. --ManiF 18:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Interesting! I added the native name of Persians the word "Fars" to the article and fixed a link, some people reverted it, naming it's vandalism!!!! This is why I added the POV tag. Whenvere you correct that version you can remove that tag. Thanks. Never mind, fixed it.

Diyako Talk + 14:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Origins of Modern Persians

Please don't remove the information which is from a highly respected and neutral scholarly source (Encyclopaedia Iranica). The mixing of Persians with Arabs in Khorasan, Qom, Qazvin and Hamadan (dating back to 8th century CE) should be mentioned in the article. This is further evidence that not all modern Persians are from Aryan background. Moreover this is not about 3% Contemorary Arabs living in Khuzestan, rather it is about amalgam and mix of Persian and Arabs in the Persian heartlands of Internal Iranian Plateau and Khorasan. Of course these Arabs were eventually assimilated in the local population, but when talking about the origins of Persians, they should be mentioned.

1. Because of the distance from Iraq and the attractiveness of the country, large numbers of these soldiers acquired lands in villages throughout Khorasan, married local women or brought their families from Iraq, and settled permanently in the province. This implies that the Arab population in Khorasan must have been huge in comparison to that in western Iran. Even if the primary component of the Arab colony in Khorasan was limited to just the 50,000 families settled there by Rabi bin Ziad, the total Arab population would have to be estimated at close to a quarter of a million people.(Encyclopaedia Iranica, under Arab settlements in Iran,p.213). (8th century CE)
2. The population of Qazvin seems to have been mainly Arab in the mid 9th century CE. Qom too became a predominantly Arab town.(Encyclopaedia Iranica, under Arab tribes of Iran, pp.215-217).Heja Helweda 21:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Read what Kash said to you, there is no argument over the fact that Arabs exist in Iran. According to CIA worldbook, 3% of Iran is of Arab ethnicity, but that has nothing to do with Persians' article. Stop pulling the strawman argument, trying to prove that somehow because of the fact that Arabs exist in Iran, the modern Persians are "an amalgam of Arabs and other races", Encyclopaedia Iranica does not make such statement. That's your own assumption driven by your political beliefs and agenda, stop misquoting Iranica out of context. You don't have a direct quote from a primary source that says "modern Persians are a mix of this and that". It's an established fact, as verified by Encyclopedia Britannica [1][2] and Iranica [3] that Persians are of Aryan lineage. As Tajik already explained, the numbers of those invaders and settlers were very small compared to large population of Persians and other Iranic groups, to have any "lasting impact" on the genetics of the larger native population. --ManiF 22:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I have not said they are not Aryan, I was just saying their extensive ethnic mix with Arabs should be mentioned. Again the 3% figure is for the existing Arabs in Khuzestan and south of Iran. What I am talking about is Arabs in Khorasan and central Iran, who came to Iranbetween eighth and ninth century and were assimmilated in the local persians. They are counted now as Persians not Arabs, and are Persian speaking, however their origins go back to the early Muslim Armies. After all no single ethnic group is pure. There is no such thing.Heja Helweda 02:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Look at this map, the 3% figure for the Iranian Arabs is not limited to Arabs in Khuzestan, it also includes ethnic Arabs in places such as Khorasan and central Iran. There are ethnic Arabs throughout Iran. Not all Iranians are Persians. This article, however, is about ethnic Persians and your selective and out-of-context quotes are only meant to flame and aggravate people. Iran is not Khorasan, Khorasan is one of dozens of provinces nationwide, Persians don't just live in Khorasan, your quotes do not support your contention that the whole Persian cumminty had extensive ethnic mix with Arabs, and that's only your assumption. Now, as I said before, and let me make this excruciatingly clear, you don't have a direct quote from a primary source that catagorically says "modern Persians are a mix", primarily because this is simply a false notion. --ManiF 03:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not talking about present, but 800 AD, when the Persians and Arabs mixed. Many of those Arabs assimilated and their descendants consider themselves to be Persian,. while in fact they have Arab ancestry. Where do think the Seyyeds have come from? We have many many Persian Seyyeds in Iran. The very term of seyyed (a descendant of Prophet's family) is cear indication of Arab mix with Persians. Moreover if you read the paragraph more carefully, I have also included Qom, Qazvin and Hamadan. I am not just talking about Khorasan region.Heja Helweda 03:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Again, stop pulling the strawman argument and provide a primary source that catagorically says "Persians and Arabs mixed". Also, there are hundreds of cities and regions in Iran, your "examples" of Arab settlements in three or four regions don't support your main argument (assumption) that there was "extensive ethnic mix" between Arabs and the larger Persian population. If your assumption is correct, then you shouldn't have any problems finding a reliable source that supports your assumption by catagorically stating that modern Persians are "an amalgam of Arabs and others". --ManiF 03:57, 28 February 2006

Calm down please. I never intended to say Persians are amalgam or something. Persians clearly have their roots at 2,500 years ago (Achamenids), but along the way they have mixed with other people (like Arabs) in certain regions like Khorasan, Qom, Qazvin. Come on after all the Shrine of Hazrat-e Massoumeh is in Qom and the Shrine of the eighth Imam is in Mashad. But one might say they did not mix in some other regions (may be like Shiraz, let's say).Heja Helweda 04:08, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

You never intended to say that Persians are amalgam or something? That's exactly what you originally said and what you've been trying to "prove" with out-of-context quotes and etc. Small groups of Persians may have intermarried with invaders but the numbers of those invaders and settlers were very small compared to large population of Persians, to have any lasting impact on the genetics of the Persians as a race and ethnicity. --ManiF 04:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Mixing does not necessarily mean the original race is wiped out or completely changed, and by the way the evidence is just for certain regions. Did I ever say Persians in all of Iran were completely changed? Of course not. Just in certain regions, which happen to be religious centers now like Khorasan and Qom.Heja Helweda 04:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Persians: No Evidence of Being Racially Mixed with Arabs

Heja Helweda, Aucun, or other users; your Encyclopedia Iranica source is unverifiable. I clicked on it, and an Adobe file opens. A saved Adobe file is not a reliable source. Do you have any authoritative sources like Encyclopedia Britannica, or the Columbia Encyclopedia? Unfortunately I have to say, as to your statement that “Persians are mixed racially with Arabs” is inaccurate, as a matter of fact, it is false. I am not sure which books and references you are reading, but they are certainly far from main stream beliefs. Actually, out of all the invaders of Iran (Greeks etc.), it was [only] the Arabs that did not racially mix with Persians. The reason for that is Islam strictly prohibits mixing racially with gentiles (non-Muslims). Keep in mind, during the invasion Islam was at its beginning, so the fevers of fundamentalism must have been high, and Islamic laws more strictly followed. This is actually one of the main reasons that the ancient land of Babylon slowly became an Arab country; Iraq. Basically, the Caliphs and the rest stayed within the borders of Iran; mostly ruling from there. This fact is mentioned in many Islamic literatures and along with the fact that even today, the over-whelming majority of Iranians ARE of their original ancestral roots: Persian, Gilaki, Tajik, Baluchi, Azari, and Kurds etc. Even in the south, in cities like Khuzestan, they are mostly Persians. So, I am not sure what gives when you imply they are many Arabs mixed with Iranians, and it [needs] to be mentioned in an article named `Persian People`? I also don’t get it that you and some others are actively trying to undermine the Indo-Aryan lineage of Iranians. Good, or bad, and with all these different sub-ethnicities in Iran, the Aryans (Medes and others), nevertheless, [are] the ancestors of this country. So, why do you feel you need to erase and rewrite this article? Zmmz 03:55, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

When some source does not suit our personal views, it is not appropriate to accuse the source. Instead think for a moment and try to make the article neutral.Heja Helweda 04:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

The reason for that is Islam strictly prohibits mixing racially with gentiles (non-Muslims). That's wrong. The third Imam, Imam Hussein married a Sassanids princess named Shahrbanou. Her shrine is around Tehran (Bibi Shahrbanou). The Arabs did mix both at the highest levels and also at the local level.Heja Helweda 04:13, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Your source is fine, but you are quoting it out of context trying to imply something that is not true. Persians were not genetically changed by Arabs or anyone else. --ManiF 04:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Where did I say they were genetically changed. I just said they mixed with Arabs, i.e., they intermarried, and it was the Arabs who were eventually assimilated in the Persian population not the other way around. (for the basic reason that Persians were the majority)Heja Helweda 04:23, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, but it is hard to make an argument that seems so revolutionary as yours does credible--or for that matter any argument credible--if one does not have the right sources. I really would like to see what you are saying in an Encyclopedia. The link you provided for Encyclopedia Iranica is an Adobe file, and it is the only one you seem to have. That is not to say that after the 1979 Revolution many Iranians emigrated to foreign countries like Arabia, Dubai, Japan, Poland, England etc., etc. Obviuosly some of these Iranians have married foreigners, including the Polish, Arabs, and others, however, that is a different thing than you stating Iranians in Iran are mixed with Arabs. Have you ever been to that country ? Zmmz 04:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Adobe file is not a good reason to throw away a scholarly source.Heja Helweda 04:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is not a good reason, but I have to tell you that file could have been written by anyone, although I believe you when you say you trust it. Nevertheless, do you not agree that such an important information about a country’s race would be mentioned in an Encyclopedia?Zmmz 04:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you bring up a good and factual point that I was going to mention as well. That would be the fact that the [only] two out of an almost minute number of Persian-Arab marriages are one, Imam Hussein and Queen Shahrbanu, and the other was the Shah of Iran and Queen Fawzieh of Egypt. Of course we know Imam Hussein was a rebel and an outsider to the ruling Arabs at that time, so he certainly may not have adhered to the strict Arab laws then. And, the ruling Sunni Arabs unfortunately killed the innocent Imam at the end. By the way, the law that Muslims were not to mix with non-Muslims or gentiles comes from the Arabic literature and Arab Muslim scholars. These are some of basic laws of Islam. They did not want the decedents of the prophet marrying foreigners. That is a fact. Also, don’t you think that if there was such a revolutionary concept of Persians being so mixed with Arabs that we would know of more Persian-Arab marriages that might have come from the royal houses of the Caliphs? Do you know of [any] mix marriages between an Arabian Caliph and a Persian, or vice versa, besides the exception of Imam Hussein? Did you also know about a new genetic study that states most of the Near East people have almost the same genetic make-up? They include Tajiks, Kurds, Azaries, people from Samarkand and Afghanistan that are eerily close to their Iranian counter parts, and ancestors like the Medes. Zmmz 04:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Let`s not also forget that no nation is an island. Certainly even Iranians in Iran have a few people mixed with Indians (specially Parsees), many Armenians, some Arabs, some Turks, and even to a lower extent some Russians and Israelies. That is a fact. However, the numbers are not nearly significant enough to imply any mass assimiliation.Zmmz 04:53, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing the article I 100% agree with whoever did it. Pervious version, obviously written by a very biased person, who was taking information out of context, gave the impression that Persian are “Arabs” by blood and only speak Persian!!!

Gol 05:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

STOP with the ANTI-Iranian POV

If you don't like Iranians go and find something else to do, you keep coming here and trying to make our life difficult, but we will not give up. The truth is down in history and history will not be 'deleted' so give up, because WE WONT. --Kash 10:14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)