Bhabha Atomic Research Centre

Page is locked

Hi, can anyone tell me why this page is locked? Apart from the naming issue, obviously. 203.219.241.110 (talk) 01:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

The article is semi-protected most likely due to pointless vandalism by anon IP editors. Only established editors can edit it for the time being. If there is a particular change you want to make, perhaps you'd like to suggest it here for someone else to make on your behalf? cheers --Merbabu (talk) 04:21, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't edit much, but have some personal connection here. In 2001, I personally interviewed "refugees" who had spent over a year in West Timor and recently returned to East Timor. They, along with the majority of the 260,000 cited were forcibly removed by pro-Indonesia militia and Indonesian military. Thus I propose the following alteration:

Instead of:

about 70% of the economic infrastructure of East Timor was destroyed by Indonesian troops [ citation needed] and anti-independence militias, and 260,000 people fled westward.

replace with:

about 70% of the economic infrastructure of East Timor was destroyed by Indonesian troops [ citation needed] and anti-independence militias, and 260,000 left East Timor. Most were forcibly displaced, though some, including many families of militias, left voluntarily.

Citation for my info: http://www.icwa.org/articles/CG-6.pdf "US Responsibility in West Timor Crisis" Curt Gabrielson, Institute for Current World Affairs Newsletter, June 1, 2001,

Citation requested earlier in the paragraph: http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/wtimor

^ "Indonesia/East Timor: Forced Expulsions to West Timor and the Refugee Crisis". Human Rights Watch. December 1999. Retrieved on 17 February 2008.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trucwatsonville (talk • contribs) 04:09, 17 May 2011 (UTC) 

File:Emblem of ASEAN.svg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Emblem of ASEAN.svg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations What should I do?

Speedy deletions at commons tend to take longer than they do on Wikipedia, so there is no rush to respond. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs. A further notification will be placed when/if the image is deleted. This notification is provided by a Bot, currently under trial --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 04:06, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Etymology section

... provides no explanation whatsoever of the meaning of "Leste". Presumably it's "east", but that should be explicitly mentioned. --202.28.179.5 (talk) 05:45, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Also ugly nonstandard title. The anchorlink deals with functionality issues, but I'll still note my distaste for the clunky thing that just got replaced. — LlywelynII 15:31, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Requested move: Timor-Leste

East Timor → Timor-Leste – The proposed name is the UN member and sovereign state name of this country, as you can see here and here, respectively. Much of the notability of this entity is a result of it’s status as a UN member. It must be admitted that “Timor-Leste" is not the most common form of this country's name in English. But an important function of a title is to establish proper normative usage. Hence we have article titles at Mumbai, Kolkata, and Côte d'Ivoire, even though Bombay, Calcutta and Ivory Coast are the more commonly used English-language names. Many countries have made name changes upon independence or other status change. For example, Rhodesia became Zimbabwe, South-West Africa became Namibia, and Annam became Vietnam. The name “Timor-Leste” was selected upon independence and therefore falls in this catagory. Kauffner (talk) 17:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, so nobody’s heard of “Timor-Leste”. But the name “East Timor” doesn’t exactly get top billing anywhere either. It is conventional to follow local usage in the case of lesser known locations. Britannica splits the difference with the title East Timor (Timor-Leste). Meanwhile, Huffington Post, The Economist, The New Zealand Herald, the Jakarta Post, and the CIA's World Factbook all use “Timor-Leste”. Usage of the official name has increased dramatically in the last few years, so I will use very recent data. For Google News since 2005, I get 18,700 results for Timor-Leste, and 15,300 results for East Timor. Kauffner (talk) 17:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support. This has been debated extensively (see above) and I am not sure that the mood has changed. For what it is worth, I support the change. danielkueh (talk) 17:56, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose, since as Kauffner says, "'Timor-Leste' is not the most common form of the name in English", and that is the rule we follow (if, on the other hand, it can be established that "Timor-Leste" is now more common in reliable sources, I'd be happy to support a name change). If "Mumbai", "Kolkata", and "Côte d'Ivoire" are not the most common names in English, those articles should be renamed, not this one. That the UN calls the country "Timor-Leste" is not decisive; we're not calling Vietnam "Viet Nam" either, even though that is the name used at the UN. Ucucha (talk) 22:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

  Vietnam is of course quite notable for reasons unrelated to its UN membership. And "Timor-Leste" does get more news hits in the last few years. Kauffner (talk) 01:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

  So is East Timor. Or do you think Somaliland, Western Sahara, and Kosovo are not notable? Ucucha (talk) 01:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

  East Timor is a country run by UN agencies. The UN had the security mandate until March of this year. You have heard of this place before, right? A large percentage of the coverage is related to UN peacekeeping and to political status, with UN membership used as a way to certify full independence from Indonesia. Before independence, East Timor was known as Noam Chomsky's hobbyhorse, so it was quite distant from mainstream interest. Vietnam became a UN member in 1977, an event that had no significant impact on the level of coverage that the country received. Kauffner (talk) 02:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per Ucucha. "Mumbai", "Kolkata", and "Côte d'Ivoire" are all controversial title on Wikipedia precisely because it is doubtful whether they are the most common names in English; the question of which variety of English applies is (in all three cases) a political question. Here it is not quite so political; the government chose to be "Timor Leste" in all languages, and English usage has not followed anywhere in the world. Evidence to show that has changed is welcome. This ngram suggests that East Timor still dominates in English as a whole, and the journalistic use of datelines is exceptional; presumably as a response to government pressure. Even if not, we should stay with the established name until the other becomes dominant; as with Mumbai, the political choice could change at the next election. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:06, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per the overwhelming discussion a year ago, the archive of which I post below --Merbabu (talk) 08:36, 27 September 2011 (UTC):

Extended content

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC) East Timor → Timor-Leste — Discussed many times above. Consensus is to move. Fmph (talk) 11:13, 19 October 2010 (UTC) Move - Its been discussed to death. lets move it and move on. Fmph (talk) 11:16, 19 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose. Reliable third-party English sources still predominately call the country "East Timor". Uses of "Timor-Leste" in English appear to be dominated by non-English sources that produce English translations of their content; natively English sources overwhelmingly use "East Timor". Google News search for 'East Timor', Google News search for 'Timor-Leste'. Powers T 16:22, 19 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose per WP:UCN (use common names) and WP:UE (use English). Wikipedia doesn't do official names. This hasn't changed since the last formal proposal (here). — AjaxSmack 20:32, 19 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose - no-one except us wikipedia nerds seems to know what Timor Leste even means - and the odd university professer perhaps. English Language is determined by usage and not by the decree of a government. Wikipedia policy is to use common names. I don't think I've ever seen a media report use Timor Leste - it's all East Timor - and I do take quite an interest in what happens in that country. Further, it's not wikipedia's job to promote new things. We are not part of a campaign to set "correct" things. We reflect what is, not what we think they should be. Sure, provide full explanation (as article currently does) but it’s not going to help wikipedia to ultimately have, I presume, every mention of “East Timor” across wikipedia changed to “Timor Leste”. Anyway, I will get back to improving the article now - there is a little more to this article (and a country for that matter) than the first sentence on this page. --Merbabu (talk) 21:54, 19 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose per WP:UCN (use common names) and WP:UE (use English). Wikipedia doesn't do official names. Damn this "let's use the native names"-approach. This isn't the international wiki, this is the English-wiki. Flamarande (talk) 22:31, 19 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose "East Timor" is still by a long way the most common name of the nation in English. Flamarande above sums up the relevant policy arguments succinctly. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 10:32, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose "East Timor" is most common name and the proposed name is unheard to the most of readers.Penom (talk) 11:37, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Support 'East Timor' is the most common-English language name in the media and general publications, but the country's official name is 'Timor Leste' and this is now consistently used by English-speaking governments (except for politicians aiming messages at their general public) and normally used in non-Government publications which are focused on the country. There seems to me to be no excuse to use an outdated and somewhat colloquial name for the country just because people who don't know what they're talking about still use it. I note that WP:ON is only an essay and while I generally support using common names for things, this is a case where doing so doesn't make any sense. Nick-D (talk) 10:45, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Comment You say that East Timor isn't used "except for politicians aiming messages at their general public" Seems quite clear that when speakers want to be understood by English-speaking people, they call the country "East Timor". Wikipedia should follow common practice, not try and lead it. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 11:26, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Comment Notice that Nick-D first admits that "'East Timor' is the most common-English language name in the media and general publications" but then argues that we shouldn't use East Timor "just because people who don't know what they're talking about still use it" (i.e.: the average English-speaking person). He also argues that "this is a case where doing so doesn't make any sense". IMHO Nick-D's arguments follow an extremely illogical reasoning. Flamarande (talk) 13:30, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Precisely. Wikipedia is a place for "people who don't know what they're talking about" to go and find out more. It is a general reference and not a work of or for specialists. If I'm an average person and interested in finding out more about East Timor, I can find the article where I would most expect it and then find out that the Portuguese name of the country is Timor-Leste. — AjaxSmack 21:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Flamarande, I explicitly stated that while I normally support using the common name for things (which in this case is 'East Timor') in this case I don't think that it makes sense. Seems fairly logical to me (though I'm obviously biased!) - WP:IAR and all that. Nick-D (talk) 08:29, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Not biased - just "illogical". ;-) --Merbabu (talk) 09:34, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Given the comments to this point, it's clear that I'm tilting at windmills here as well ;) Nick-D (talk) 09:57, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose The only people I ever hear referring to Timor-Leste in English are the Socialist Alliance; everybody else, including aid groups, government, media etc in Australia (the main English speaking country of the region) and in other English-speaking countries that I can find online uses East Timor - see e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. Per WP:UCN (I don't think WP:UE is as relevant - Côte d'Ivoire is where it is for a reason.) Orderinchaos 19:47, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Support Widely referred to as Timor-Leste, not just in Portuguese sources, even found in English sources. The nation's official name is the Democratic Republic of Timor Leste in English.--RM (Be my friend) 20:28, 20 October 2010 (UTC) How widely? And in what proportion vis-à-vis "East Timor"? — AjaxSmack 21:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC) "even found in English sources." Interesting emphasis. :-) Indeed, while its official English name is "Democratic Republic of East Timor" its English name "East Timor". Language is not determined by officialdom, but by usage. Hence wikipedia refers to, for example, the Sumatran tiger and not Panthera tigris sumatrae and to Indonesia not the Republic of Indonesia. --Merbabu (talk) 22:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose per Flamarande.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:09, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose per the issues brought up by Flamarande and Merbabu - WP:UCN (use common names) and WP:UE (use English) both strongly suggest the way to go SatuSuro 12:32, 21 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose Per above, massive number of reliable publications name it East Timor.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:11, 22 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose. It's piling on at this point, but in English it's overwhelmingly most commonly referred to as "East Timor". — Gavia immer (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2010 (UTC) Oppose; Flamerande and Merbabu said it all. Hermione is a dude (talk) 17:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC) The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

• Support This pops up every six months or so, and will probably continue to do so until the article is moved. While it doesn't look like this attempt will be successful, I stand by my comments in the above archived discussion (eg, that Timor Leste is the name now used by most national governments and major organisations) and that as a result it's what we should use as the correct encyclopedic name for the article and choose to ignore WP:NAME in the process). Nick-D (talk) 11:58, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

  Which will happen under one of two conditions:

  • There is consensus to use a name nobody but a diplomat has heard of instead of one English-speakers have.
  • English-speakers have come to call this country Timor-Leste.

  Can we table this until one of those two things happens? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I gave a list of publications that use the term. The The Economist, the CIA, the regional press, international organizations, etc. They don't speak English? These are the people who deal most directly with this issue. If you want to know the name of a subatomic particle, ask a physicist. Name of a country? A diplomat might know! Kauffner (talk) 15:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Kauffner's sources are not a majority, let alone an overwhelming majority, of English usage; stare decisis. A diplomat is a honest man sent to lie abroad for his country; if he knows something, he is unlikely to tell you. That's how we get attestations for such country "names" as The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (alphabetized under T). So here; we do not have to adopt the POV of the current government, and we have policy not to do so; diplomats differ in both respects. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

In contrast to the Greek government's position with respect to Macedonia, the Indonesian government no longer holds a grudge with respect to the East Timor naming issue. The Jakarta Post switched from "East Timor" to "Timor Leste" earlier this year. Look at this JP headline: "Editorial: Bring Timor Leste in to ASEAN". The newspaper's office would have been burned down if they published that five years ago. In the East Indies, bygones are bygones and the days of big countries picking out names for small ones are over. It pretty standard for countries to change their names like this when they become independent. It was always malicious to refuse to do it in this case, and now even Indonesia no longer objects. Kauffner (talk) 02:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support But, you know, not going anywhere. I propose we all be grudgingly satisfied with the existence of Côte d'Ivoire and East Timor, a pair at opposites, rather than continuously open new move requests. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. – ukexpat (talk) 18:58, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose this is english wikipedia for heaven sake, not portuguese. Come to think of it maybe back in wikipedia Indonesia the name Timor Leste should be turn back to Timor Timur. But here in Indonesia I heard there is an official diplomatic request from East Timor govt that the country should be refer as Timor Leste, the name Timor Timur (exact translation of english: East Timor and portuguese: Timor Leste) awfully reminds them to Indonesian occupation. So Indonesian govt want to be politically correct has agreed to refer the country as "Timor Leste", although IMO in proper Indonesian language it is lingusitically wrong, to put foreign Portuguese name ahead of our own Indonesian name. This naming issues is weird, East Timor tried to be an independence country but desperately clings to the legacy of their former ruler/colonizer. Just my two cents... (Gunkarta (talk) 19:23, 27 September 2011 (UTC))

• Oppose, because all manner of widely circulated newspapers in English prefer "East Timor", often by a healthy margin:

	Google hits for "East Timor"	Google hits for "Timor-Leste"
New York Times	8750	49
Washington Post	8260	5720
Wall Street Journal	314	38
The Guardian	50,900	1290
The Daily Telegraph	1080	36
The Independent	2930	26
The Globe and Mail	220	14
The Age	43,900	845
The Australian	3000	152
Sydney Morning Herald	9010	789
New Zealand Herald	8580	870
The Economist	1760	508

Now, it's possible the trend has been in the direction of "Timor-Leste"; I can't rule that out. But it does seem fairly clear that across the English-speaking world, based on newspaper articles published in the last few years, "East Timor" is by far the preferred term, and would be more familiar to our readers as well. - Biruitorul ^Talk 04:52, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The ratio is even more lopsided if you do this for Ivory Coast and Côte d'Ivoire, but that country gets its UN member name as an article title all the same. Well, I guess I contributed my Wikibyte, for what little it was worth, to the cause of the Christians of East Timor, who have suffered so much from Muslim savagery over the years. Kauffner (talk) 09:59, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The Ivory Coast/Cote d'Ivoire question and your (seemingly bigotted) opinions on East Timor's history are both irrelevant to naming matter. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 11:38, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Citation to be Included

Hi, under the History section there was a citation request for the November 28 1975 declaration of independence. I did a quick search and found this page on the US State Department's website. Would this link be valid?

I wish you well. Tor...

Our usual reasons for avoiding websites should not apply to the State Department; it is a knowledgable source, as likely to be fact-checked as most major publishers, and officially produced. I would use it unless there is some question (I don't see what it would be here) of a US POV. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:33, 27 September 2011 (UTC)