Talk:Jerusalem

Jews banned from entering

The article says jews were banned from entering until two different dates. Which is the correct one? Jarwulf (talk) 01:27, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

"Unverifiable"

It is false to say that the muslims believe that the prophet ascended from the heavens from Dome of the Rock. According to Islamic scholars and traditions, the prophet ascended from the heavens from Al - Aqsa Mosque (Bait al Muqaddas)[1][2][3][Unsigned]

There are no sources for the claim made in the last sentence of the first paragraph and it should therefore be deleted if it cannot be sourced accurately and immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.21.201 (talk)

I don't think a source is needed. On what grounds could anyone possibly challenge that claim? --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 07:17, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Image clutter

This article simply has too many images that are either not relevant to the section in which they are placed, poorly captioned, not staggered, or redundant and add no more real encyclopedic value to the article. I plan to tidy it up per WP:MOSIMAGES here shortly. It also might be worthwhile to create a unified Jerusalem gallery in Commons that can be linked in this article. Any input is welcome. -asad (talk) 12:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I think its a great idea to create a unified Jerusalem Gallery --SajjadF (talk) 13:15, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made the changes. I hope this will enable to the article to read, flow and look better. -asad (talk) 01:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Moving some stuff around for readability and flow is one thing. Adding new pics with contentious captions like you did with the US consulate and the panorama from Gilo is quite another. I can't imagine you didn't think those would be objected to.

How about you do some smaller incremental edits so we can discuss the problematic bits as they arise? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 06:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I hope this are not deleting information for delet Israel also ! Thank you very much !. פארוק (talk) 07:00, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree some pictures (police hq etc) are unnecessary. On the other hand, a picture of the Orient House could be in there somewhere. --Dailycare (talk) 08:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Until now I can not understand why a capital city like Jerusalem can not have an importent pictures in the beginning of this article and why they are in small size in a small chapter, or maybe it stems from political considerations and before of that have been deleted here entire rows, some of them that I wrote. פארוק (talk) 08:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Just wanted to pop in to remind everyone here of WP:AGF. For what it's worth, the image clutter is a legitimate issue. MOS:IMAGES says that we are to, "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other, and between an image and an infobox or similar." This is exactly what it being done in large portions of this article. While all pictorial contributions are valued, I would encourage everyone to consider whether there may be more appropriate places to put them. I'm only passing through, but those are my two cents. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 08:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

NMMNG, besides the reference to Gilo and the caption about the US Consulate, could you tell me what else you found to be contentious? -asad (talk) 12:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Seriously, a blanket revert over a single caption? Most of these useless images were added over the last weeks, so if somebody wants to invoke BRD it would be to remove all that clutter. But I guess we cant have some people from muslim countries are deleting information about israel. Otherwise they might delet Israel also. nableezy - 15:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Like I said, moving some stuff around in the article is fine. Removing pictures that were added recently is also fine. Replacing a bunch of stuff and adding obviously contentious captions with no discussion on an article like this is just looking for trouble. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I don't see your point. Is there something I added that shouldn't be there? Surely the "contentious" captions can be easily cited. I just don't see anything in your statements that justify a blanket revert as you did. -asad (talk) 17:09, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Other than the two captions I already mentioned, you also added a picture of the Orient House with a contentious caption (my suggested alternative: "The Orient House, where the PLO conducted diplomatic contacts in violation of the Oslo Accords"), you removed a picture of the Wailing Wall for some reason, and at least 2-3 others. It's hard to follow all the changes when you make a couple dozen over practically the whole article.

Make smaller edits and I won't have to revert the whole thing. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Is that really your suggested caption for a picture of the Orient House? nableezy - 18:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

It's not much worse POV-wise than what he used. It can easily be cited, which apparently is all you need for a caption? See above. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:50, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Really? It isnt? How about we try this with less antagonism, not more. You say what you think is wrong with the caption used and make a serious suggestion for how it could be improved. Going from one "POV" to the other isnt going to solve anything. nableezy - 19:22, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

First of all, as I said before, the first two captions can easily be cited by a gagillion reliable sources. As for the Orient House, can you please tell me where lies the contention in writing,

"The Orient House, served as the headquarters of the PLO until its forcible closure in 2001"

Where is the dispute there? As for your last point, yes, I did remove a photo of the Western Wall. I also removed a photo of the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock. I incorporated all three of them into this photo. Did you even notice that before your revert? -asad (talk) 18:54, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

A lot of things can "easily be cited by a gagillion reliable sources". Like the alternative caption I suggested for the Orient House. The citability of the caption is not the only thing we consider when deciding if it should be in the article or not.

Feel free to make smaller edits with edit summaries explaining your actions, or if you prefer we can continue to go around in circles here. Your call. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

"The Orient House, served as the headquarters of the PLO until its forcible closure in 2001"

What's non-neutral about this? Nishidani (talk) 19:11, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

You still have not answered the questions. What is contentious about saying:

"Due to lack of recognition over the territorial sovereignty of Jerusalem, the United States Consulate General in Jerusalem, as most other diplomatic missions in Jerusalem, operates independently from the US Embassy in Tel Aviv"

and,

"The Orient House, served as the headquarters of the PLO until its forcible closure in 2001"

?? -asad (talk) 19:15, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

How about "The Orient House, where evidence that the PLO was illegally detaining people in Jerusalem was found"? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how that provides any relevance to the article. See point 3 on criteria for a good caption WP:CAP. I don't think it is very productive to counter a question by asking question. This will make it the 5th time you have been asked to explain why you feel those captions are contentious. Could you please explain? -asad (talk) 19:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Saying they were illegally detaining people in Jerusalem certainly has more relevance to an article about Jerusalem than the fact it was closed.

The caption is contentious because it doesn't say why the place was "forcibly closed". It also doesn't mention that it operated as the PLO headquarters for less than a decade. On top of that, there are much more famous landmarks one could use to illustrate this article. HTH.

Perhaps you could try to create less politically motivated captions. Picking pictures based on how well they would illustrate the article rather than your political agenda (who cares what the US consulate looks like? Again, it's not exactly a landmark building) would also probably help. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:09, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The Israeli claim that it was illegally detaining people in West Bank is not even mentioned in the article. The certain topic there is about government and national institutions, and this building served as a very well known home to the body which is known as the official representation of the Palestinian people in land that they claim as their capital. We don't need to interject the Israeli claim that it was shut down because of their operations in East Jerusalem just as much as we don't need to interject the Palestinian claim that it was shut down in an effort to rid the city of official Palestinian representation. Saying it was forcibly closed is NPOV and a representation of undisputed fact on both sides of the debate. Remember, this is a caption, if someone would like to read the conflicting claims they are welcome to click on the link. Also, I never claimed that the US Consulate was a "landmark" building. But please tell me how placing a picture of the American Consulate in a section talking about the political status of Jerusalem, near the sentence explaining the international mandate for world nations to specifically keep their official diplomatic representative buildings for Israel out of the city, illustrate a "political agenda". I am adding nothing of context that hasn't already existed in the article for years. -asad (talk) 23:17, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

It was good of Evanh2008 to mention AGF but I understand why other editors would be cynical when MoS is invoked but still ignored. Both versions appear to have sandwiching (maybe it is my browser settings but I doubt it). Of course this is a contentious edit. You can hardly move a coma without people worrying about it on such an article. Quality aside, how the image works in he subsection and then how the caption should be worded are massive issues with an article that cannot be FA since people won't stop focusing on politics at every opportunity. Crete a cute table to organize the endless discussion that is about to happen: (image | subsection proposed | etc ). So time to start an RfC. You guys are good at that, right? Oh... Cptnono (talk) 06:09, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

How about simply "The Orient House, which served as the headquarters of the PLO until 2001". --Dailycare (talk) 21:01, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

That works for me, though, I would like to know what NMMNG has to say in the interest of consensus. -asad (talk) 12:47, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Alternative proposal 2

I think the proposal is an improvement. Might I suggest breaking the two POVs into two sentences and an addition?

Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such,^[ii]. It is also the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine, though Palestinians exercise no control or sovereignty over the city.
Tiamut^talk 17:56, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

• Thats fine by me too. nableezy - 19:19, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
• I think this is very good. That is brief, facutal and without any controversy. The claim/reasonning of each side is given as well as the main reason why the other side challenges this. That fits NPoV because everybody agrees with what is written even if he could consider the other side's claim as unlegitimate. On the synthax point of view : the number of words is nearly the same ; sentence structure is the same. Excellent. Pluto2012 (talk) 19:29, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
• That is far more reasonable. I wont oppose that. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
• Agreed - seems like a good compromise. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:27, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
• I'm dropping my support for my version and going with this one. Great work! I was surprised to see that so many people looked at my suggestion as being somewhat pro-Palestinian in terms of presenting sovereignty claims, as that wasn't really my intention. I certainly thought that the difference between "capital" and "proclaimed capital" pre-empted any WP:WEIGHT issues. Regardless, it looks like I was wrong. I like this one a lot. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:50, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that there is a stray comma in there after "such". We will also need to change the "If... is" clause (regarding the population and area of East Jerusalem) to the subjunctive "If... would be", as Nishidani pointed out. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:53, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

• If we're going this route, it should note that their seat of government is Ramallah. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:57, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Ramallah is the administrative capital of the Palestinian Authority, not the State of Palestine. -asad (talk) 21:04, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

So where does the government of the State of Palestine sit? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:08, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Which country is Jerusalem territorially part of?     ←   ZScarpia   01:01, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

What does that have to do with the seat of government of the State of Palestine? Do you know where it is? I think it's important to note where their seat of government is when they proclaim their capital (which most readers would correctly assume is related to the seat of government) to be in a different city. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:49, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

To answer your first question: nothing. But it has a lot to do with the double standards and partisan reasoning being shown here.     ←   ZScarpia   04:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

In that case, could you please open a new section for whining rather than interrupt a discussion that seems to be going pretty well here? I'll come play with you there if you ask nicely. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

This article talks about Jerusalem, not Ramallah. If we add the stuff about Ramallah, we should add that Jerusalem is not totally an Israeli city but is under military occupation after an illegal annexion. Pluto2012 (talk) 05:37, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

• I withheld my reply, waiting for Evanh2008, to whom we're much indebted for providing the basic formula, to give his view, and perhaps a further tweak. It's fine by me as well, once the comma's added. I agree with Pluto, also. This cannot be expanded to carry every nuance. Good work. Nishidani (talk) 07:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I think better after coffee. Two points however still need some work. The word 'control' worried me last night. As scholars readily allow, Israel has de facto withheld the kind of retricular control and administrative process normal for states on their territory, from significant parts of East Jerusalem. The electrical and water utilities are run by West Bank Palestinian corporations. The educational curricula is not Israeli, but modelled on that in Palestinian schools. Jerusalem's municipal council radically underfunds that sector, and more importantly, several autonomous institutions like the waqf and the Christian denominations, own and administer their areas. ((Mosheh ʻAmirav, Jerusalem Syndrome: The Palestinian-Israeli Battle for the Holy City,Sussex University Press, 2009 p.111).

'From all the research on polarized cities, it appears that Jerusalem may present the most striking case of a muncipal conflict being a more extreme reflection of a national conflict. ..(comparing Belfast and Nicosia). Jerusalem can claim the dubious top honour of being the most polarized city in the world'. (pp.121, 122)

)

Operatively, therefore, Palestinians and other groups do exercise considerable local administrative autonomy there. This is how, with the comma adjusted, and the flow of balancing sentences slightly modified, I'd prefer it. I added 'their sector of the city'

Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.^[ii] It is also the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine, though Palestinians, while retaining some (administrative) autonomy, exercise no sovereignty over their sector of the city.

I'm not happy wholly with this either, of course, because it suggests there are two parties, excluding the strong Christian element in East Jerusalem. Still, a little more input and crafting is required to cover all angles, surely? Nishidani (talk) 10:27, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

"though Palestinians, while retaining some (administrative) autonomy" - Strongly oppose that being included sorry. This is giving too much undue weight to the palestinian side in the opening paragraph. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:34, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

You mean it's not true? We have cut, as I showed above, a huge amount of slack to the fringe proposition that Jerusalem (all of it) is Israel's capital, against what WP:NPOV explicitly states. I don't think you realize that in this formulation, far more has been conceded by one side in this regard. The sentence I added adjusts precisely to balance that concession. Israel does not, see its budgets, run large parts of East Jerusalem. For goodness sake, it even built the 'West' Jerusalem stadium by siphoning off funds formally allocated for the Eastern sector's administration of essential services, more or less abandoning it to its own resources.Nishidani (talk) 10:49, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

How about, "though Palestinians, while retaining limited (administrative) autonomy within their communities, exercise no sovereignty over their sector of the city." I hate to suggest longer text, but I think this may accomplish Nishidani's point. -asad (talk) 12:54, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I think Pluto and Evans, in particular, are concerned about stylistic balance and neatness, which suggests, for an encyclopedic lead, concision above all (as 'over their sector of the city' could be adjusted to there, for example, which is better since contextually it would refer to 'Jerusalem' (whole and in part, and 'retaining' with its implication of a continuity some might deny, could be having). Nishidani (talk) 14:27, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry but what exact "administrative autonomy" do the Palestinians retain in East Jerusalem again? That a private electric company supplies them with power? That's not administrative autonomy and even it was, has nothing to do with SoP. And how did the sentence jump from the State of Palestine and its proclamation to Palestinians in general? The SoP has no administrative autonomy or even official presence in Jerusalem. Also, if we're not going to explain that despite proclaiming it their capital their seat of government is elsewhere in the text, it should be in a footnote. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:31, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

This is about nuances and precision. some defines administrative autonomy, and that is a fair description of the otherwise immensely complex conceptual mess of Jerusalem's administration. Akram specifically concludes:

‘Trying to identify which parts of East Jerusalem are fully under Israeli jurisdiction, or are as Israeli as the pre-1967 Israel parts are Israeli, is a complex, if not impossible, task.’ p.124

So it's in Akram, it's in Michael Dumper's, The Politics of Sacred Space:The Old City of Jerusalem in the Middle East Conflict, Lynne Rienner Publications 2002 p.163, or any number of sources on de facto administrative autonomy. Let's take Mosheh ʻAmirav's book. He ought to know since was actually a municipal planner high up in the echelons of power there over the last decades and has described all this well in his recent book, from Eshkol's granting of autonomy to waqf authorities, to Israel's entented with Jordan that the latter power look after the EJ Palestinjians, and Kollek and Olmert's administration. No more than 5% of Jerusalem municipal funds up from the historic 3% after occupation, goes into East Jerusalem p.117). In his view Israel has effectively abandoned the Palestinian sector to its own devices. There is no united Jerusalem because the Wall built splits the Arab city from 9 Arab neighbourhoods. Two key quotes:-

In the first years of the city's unification, Kollek was one of the people most responsible for extending administrative, economic and educational autonomy to the Arab population. Years later, he came to realize that his 'liberal and enlightened' policy was a key factor behind the segregation of the Arab minority from the Jewish majority. The Arabs chose the Jordanian option and preferred autonomy to equality'. (Mosheh ʻAmirav, Jerusalem Syndrome: The Palestinian-Israeli Battle for the Holy City,Sussex University Press, 2009 p.111).

'From all the research on polarized cities, it appears that Jerusalem may present the most striking case of a muncipal conflict being a more extreme reflection of a national conflict. ..(comparing Belfast and Nicosia). Jerusalem can claim the dubious top honour of being the most polarized city in the world'. (pp.121, 122)

People who objected to Ravpapa's attempt to actually mention this profound and unique urban contentiousness would do well to see how close his suggestions mirrored those of one of Israel's best technical authorities on the city.

Golda Meir and Jordan's King Hussein had, even after 1967, a secret entente that in practical terms the Arabs of East Jerusalem would remain under Jordanian governance, which outspent Israeli gov. investment 10 times with some $100 million in East Jerusalem in the decade of the 1970s, and effectively Israel abandoned the area to itself, apart from retaining strict control over security and building permits. In the 1990s, East Jerusalemite Palestinians were given the right to vote in PNA elections. Jordan handed over its rights to the PLO in 1988, and the PNA carries on doing what the Jordanians did under the consent of Israel's occupying authorities earlier. None of this is in the article, of course, so just reading the article to inform oneself about the town won't be of much help in understanding the issue.Nishidani (talk) 17:20, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I feel pretty weird in here. I didn't agree with Tiamut's formulation, but swallowed my POV because so many editors were shaping a consensus, and I won't get in the way of that process, esp. when supported by people who are closer to the realities than a bookworm like myself is. I'm clueless as to why a formulation that showcases a fringe assertion at the outset, and meekly requests that the other side's reality be hinted at, now finds objections. The sensible thing is to accept a victory, and show grace in the conquest, as one bows to an uncontested reality on the ground.Nishidani (talk) 17:27, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I thought we were close to building a consensus in terms of the initial alternative proposal 2, I do not see the need for a change to this introduction, but i said i wouldnt oppose that change happening. But now instead of a reasonable brief sentence mentioning the palestinian position being moved to the top of the introduction, we are getting bogged down by issues around if they exercise some control of areas within the city in terms of local government. This is totally giving undue weight to this issue for the first paragraph of the introduction. The proposed initial wording was factually accurate. the "state of Palestine" has no sovereignty or control over the city of Jerusalem. Its brief and simple whilst making Palestinian claims to the city right at the top of the introduction despite many of us believing it is not necessary to be there. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:42, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Consensus means that the majority underwrite a passage that then assumes a certain authority textually, thus it takes time, requires close study, so that those underwriting it are fully aware of the implications. It is not an overnight rush, and we do it quietly. Generally the process so far has been illuminatingly sensible and civil. As per my source, the 'most contention-fraught city in the world', which by the way, the lead should add, but doesn't, we simply cannot gloss over the Palestinian presence and its POV as a claim counterpoised to a fringe POV assertion by Israel that it is the capital. That is the POV problem the added suggestions attempt to solve. By the way have you read the details above, which were in response to NMMGG's query?Nishidani (talk) 19:15, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec)No only is it undue weight, it's mixing two unrelated issues. One is the capital of the SoP (still waiting to hear where their seat of government actually is, if anyone knows) and the other is whatever "limited autonomy" there is there, which is not exercised by the SoP, obviously. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:49, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The world does not recognize Israel's position on Jerusalem, by a majority of 193 to 1. The majority of states recognize The State of Palestine by a majority of 130 to 63. If you want a debate about WP:Undue, you'd lose on that score alone, since, as I noted, the current opening line gives undue weight to a fringe position. Still, we're here not to quarrel, but to find a sensible arrangement for an inadequate lead. I'm happy to withdraw my qualifiers if the current majority prefers the text as Evansh2008 and Tiamut tailored it, by the way. Since the SoP is a state occupied by Israel, arguments of the kind you are adducing do not apply. We do not underwrite power arrangements here, we simply state what the best sources agree is the case, which here, is that Jerusalem is not wholly in Israel, is occupied, and the occupied Palestinian part is more or less left to its own resources in managing the mess in its quarter. Since the article deals with all of the city, there's no way of equivocating over this, and trying to maintain NPOV while relegating the Palestinian fact to a footnote. Britishwatcher accepts the Evansh/Tiamut suggestion. You haven't expressed your specific view on it, and perhaps it's time for some positive input. Nishidani (talk) 19:12, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

If only you had a source that says that lack of recognition of a capital means something, or that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel, maybe you'd have a point. I also notice that the "precision and nuance" you say it so important is a bit lacking when discussing the SoP, like the fact it doesn't have a functioning government, controls no territory, or in fact possesses any of the hallmarks of a state, except for recognition. But that's ok, we all know what the reality is and I think most of us understand that even if you were able to change wikipedia to fit your POV, it would not change the reality on the ground.

As for the current suggestion, I have expressed my specific view on it, but let me reiterate in case you missed it. I think that if the current suggestion is used, it should be noted (preferably in the text but I'll also accept a footnote) that the seat of government of the SoP is not in Jerusalem. Considering the fact some editors here wanted to change the text to say that Israel "proclaimed" Jerusalem as its capital and we all know that Jerusalem functions as the capital of Israel, saying that the SoP proclaimed it as its capital may imply that their seat of government is there. It should be made clear that it isn't. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I like Nishidani's most recent revision. The only thing I would tweak is the parentheses around "administrative". Let's get rid of those, if no one objects.

Accusations of POV pushing aside, I agree somewhat with NMMNG regarding clarification in connection with the seat-of-government issue, but I would much rather see that in there as a footnote than in-text. One question I don't think anyone has yet raised -- if we're going to use the full-form "State of Palestine" shouldn't we also then use the full-form "State of Israel"? Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Palestine can mean Palestine, State of Palestine, or (sometimes) the Palestinian territories. Israel, for at least the last 60 years, does not suffer from such ambiguity. But I dont really care if State of precedes Israel, I just dont find it necessary. nableezy - 20:52, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't find it necessary either. I sill object to Nishidani's proposal for the reasons stated above. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:53, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Id be fine with a footnote that addresses your concerns. That language would have to be worked out, obviously, but I dont have a problem with it. nableezy - 21:17, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

So can we not have a footnote that deals with the Palestinian Authorities seat of government, along with the issue of the administrative autonomy mentioned. Rather than putting either of those things in the opening sentences. That initial Alternative proposal 2 is not inaccurate, despite these issues being raised. Those claims are too much for the second sentence of the article. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:23, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

If 'alternative 2' as proposed by Tiamut is adopted, I don't see any objection to footnote[s] that would be added to provide clarifications. Pluto2012 (talk) 21:28, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think the "autonomy" stuff belongs in a footnote to the first sentence of the lead. It can be discussed in the section about the current status of the city, assuming somebody develops an appropriate section in the body of the article. I should note that the Waqf and churches managing their own affairs happens all over Israel and with others like the Baha'i and Druze as well, so it's not something unique to Jerusalem. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but I try to argue from the most authoritative sources I can find, which in this case means Mosheh ʻAmirav who states

In the first years of the city's unification, Kollek was one of the people most responsible for extending administrative, economic and educational autonomy to the Arab population. Years later, he came to realize that his 'liberal and enlightened' policy was a key factor behind the segregation of the Arab minority from the Jewish majority. The Arabs chose the Jordanian option and preferred autonomy to equality'. (Mosheh ʻAmirav, Jerusalem Syndrome: The Palestinian-Israeli Battle for the Holy City,Sussex University Press, 2009 p.111).

A de facto state of administrative autonomy was conceded to the Palestinians in East Jerusalem. That is admitted by someone who actually participated over that period in the administration of Jerusalem, who also documents Israel's systematic disengagement from what would be, were Jerusalem really unified, its responsibilities in that area. It even uses half of the taxes from the Palestinian quarter for Jewish developments. I.e. taxes the non-Israelis in order to get more resources for the Israelification of the rest of Jerusalem. Nishidani (talk) 06:33, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Moshe Amirav is not free of political bias, not to mention he was in charge of building roads and light rail. His view should be attributed if it is included in the article. Please explain why you think this belongs in the first sentence of the lead. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:08, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

No one is free from political bias. This area is plagued by editors who have little but political bias. Moshe Amirav's statement comes from an experienced administrator of Jerusalem under Kollek and Olmert and I have no idea what his politics were, except that they ain't mine. And I don't care either. A specialist cited uncontroversibly in the area of his competence does not have to suffer attribution unless his view is fringe. It doesn't appear to be the case here. Otherwise everything cited from specialist academic sources would be under attribution.Nishidani (talk) 15:33, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Recap

• Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such,^[ii]. It is also the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine, though Palestinians exercise no control or sovereignty over the city.
  Tiamut^talk 17:56, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

This has broad approval. My objection is to control. Israel's control is a matter of security and building permits alone by all sources I have looked at.

• Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.^[ii] It is also the proclaimed capital of the Palestine, though Palestinians, while exercising some administrative autonomy, lack sovereignty over their sector of the city.
  

My point is, if you mention the lack of Palestinian sovereignty, you cannot get away with the factual is clause in 'is the capital of Israel', unless you qualify the latter by a reference to the fact they do exercise some administrative autonomy. The reason is, by the unanimous agreement of all other nations in the human community, Israel does not have legal sovereignty over an important sector of Jerusalem, East Jerusalem. The text as it stands doesn't mention the sovereignty issue except to state that Palestinians lack it. Sure, but Israel also lacks it there. When I speak of 'nuance' and POV advantage, I mean things like this. I don't care how the phrasing is rehoned, but I think Tiamut's suggestion must be per NPOV reviewed with regard to 'control' and the unilateral emphasis on Palestinian lack of sovereignty, something true of that sector also of Israel.Nishidani (talk) 07:11, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Israel clearly has sovereignty and control over the city of Jerusalem, even if it was obtained by what is deemed an illegal occupation/annexation. Something the introduction already clearly goes into in further paragraphs. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:11, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

It depends the exact meaning of the word 'sovereignty'. I think that Israel has the control but no 'sovereignty' on East Jerusalem. But whatever, instead of expanding the lede to nuance this, I would suggest to shorthen Tiamut's version... Pluto2012 (talk) 08:36, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Israel doesn't have sovereignty over Jerusalem. An encyclopedia article can't say that with a straight face. Israel says it has sovereignty over Jerusalem. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:44, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Where are we proposing to say in the wording that it does. The proposal is simply to say Palestinians do not to emphasise the lack of control they have over the city compared to Israel. The fact Israels control of the city is disputed is covered in detail further in the introduction where it says the international community view it as an illegal annexation. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:03, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm simply responding to your statement "Israel clearly has sovereignty ... over the city of Jerusalem... Something the introduction already clearly goes into..." because the statement is inaccurate on both counts. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:14, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Israel is a sovereign state, it treats Jerusalem as entirely within its own territory and exercises sovereignty and control over it. It may not be internationally recognised, or viewed as illegal or what ever else by others, but it clearly has control of the city. But like i said, we are not specifically stating Israel has sovereignty, this is just about explaining the fact a non existent sovereign state does not have sovereignty over the city or control it to ensure balance, seen as its already stated that Jerusalem isnt recognised internationally as the capital of Israel. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:07, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps you should look up what the word "sovereignty" means. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:19, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

The point is that the state exercises no control. We dont need to get into whether Palestinians exercise any control. nableezy - 17:50, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's one of the points I've been trying to make. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:11, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Which is solved by using sovereignty, right? nableezy - 18:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Gah, too many threads here. I was talking about my proposed change for the Palestinian control. On the issue of Israeli sovereignty, that is a bit more complicated. I dont think anybody actually disputes that Israel controls all of Jerusalem and that the treat the entire area as their sovereign territory. It isn't though, EJ is occupied Palestinian territory, not sovereign Israeli territory. West Jerusalem's status varies a bit more depending on who you ask. I dont think the article can state that Jerusalem is Israeli sovereign territory, or that it has sovereignty over the city. The occupier is not the sovereign power, it is the occupying power. Without using the term de facto, the article should not assert any sovereignty over the city to Israel as that is a legal issue in which Israel's position is very much in the minority. nableezy - 18:53, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

NNMNG, re: 'what the word "sovereignty" means', please, as you surely know, there is a difference between fact and opinion and we are required to distinguish between them. If we are going to talk about who has sovereignity (and I'm not suggesting that we do) then Ruth Lapidoth provides an overview of the diversity of views on the sovereignty issue for both west and east on pages 71-77 in "Jerusalem: A City and Its Future" ISBN 978-0815629139. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:45, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

There is indeed a difference between fact and opinion. For some reason you prefer opinion. I still recommend you look up what "sovereignty" means. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:56, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

For the record, no, I prefer facts. Opinions are pretty worthless in my world, including opinions about meaning. Still, RS and editors seem to like them. If I could delete them all with a press of a button, I would. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:12, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such^[ii]. It is also the proclaimed capital of the State ofPalestine, though Palestinians exercise no control or sovereignty over the city.

I see this favours control over sovereignty. Another variation might be:

is both the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such^[ii], and the proclaimed capital of the Palestine, though Palestinians exercise no sovereignty over their sector.(

(ref: ‘Jerusalem is a unique municipality whose importance is such that it is jointly and simultaneously claimed as the capital city of Israel and the proposed Palestinian state.’ Sanford R. Silverburg, 'Palestine and the World of Law: A Structural Analysis,’ in Sanford R. Silverburg (ed.),Palestine and International Law: Essays on Politics and Economics, McFarland, 2009 pp.160-172 p.163 Nishidani (talk) 10:50, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

"is both the capital of.... "" That is blatant gross POV in favour of the Palestinian view point giving totally undue weight. If there is not going to be a reasonable proposal accepted then there should be no change at all. If this grossly biased wording or anything like that is added to the introduction, it should be reverted. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:57, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I have the impression you are not reading the sources on which I am making several suggestions. Please focus and do not be disruptive by using phrases like 'blatant gross POV'. 'Both' in my text comes specifically from Silverburg's reference to dual claims. What I am suggesting comes from scholars like Sanford R. Silverburg or scholar-technocrats in Israel like Mosheh ʻAmirav, and they are not 'grossly biased'. If you can't evaluate proposals and sources with equanimity, I suggest you withhold your vote until other editors have tried to work out consensually an agreed upon version to replace the present NPOV-defective one. It won't be what any one editor wants. It must be what the realities on the ground as described in RS require. Nishidani (talk) 11:35, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I do not support your proposed wording. I view it as blatant gross POV and do not think it belongs in the article because it clearly gives undue weight to the palestinian position. I do not think there will be consensus for such wording. I did not think there was a need for the change at all, but i was prepared to back the initial compromise above which was reasonable. But not this. It has been explained in the previous sections talking about this why it is inappropriate to talk about it being both the capital of Israel and Palestine in a single sentence. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:59, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Your diffidence is registered, several times, in the same words. There is no need to keep on repeating yourself. Nishidani (talk) 13:56, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

"Both" can be misunderstood as "both the capital of Israel and Palestine" when it is here just "Both this... and that" ; this and that being two different things... What about fusing both sentences and going deeper in the lede to talk about this ? Pluto2012 (talk) 14:45, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

• Jerusalem's political status is complex: the city is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such^[ii] [and] the proclaimed capital of the State ofPalestine, though Palestinians exercise no control or sovereignty over the city.
  

Forget control, and just say though Palestine exercises no sovereignty over the city. nableezy - 15:02, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Nableezy re 'control'. Sovereignty is more comprehensive, while control is inadequate. I've provided Pluto's tweak with two notes, used earlier, to source in RS the introductory adjunct he added, which is illuminating (it is also the gist of what Ravpapa's version argued). Could all editors read the whole of Dumper's close analysis, which I've linked in that footnote, as regards how absolutely bewilderingly complex the various demarcations and powers active in both parts of the city are? For easy access see Michael Dumper, ‘Constructive Ambiguities? Jerusalem, international law, and the peace process,’ in Susan Akram, Michael Dumper, Michael Lynk, Ian Scobbie, (eds.) International Law and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: A Rights-Based approach to Middle East Peace, pp.123-124 Nishidani (talk) 15:41, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I've read it. Particularly where it says "It's important not to overstate this argument", which is exactly the opposite of what you're doing. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:19, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

It's followed by "but", and is 'rhetorical'. If you are familiar with the stylistic conventions of prose rhetoric, it means quite the opposite to how you take it.

Pretty easy to read several pages just to find one phrase that might suit a predetermined objection. Try to be constructive. Anyone can sit round, and keep kibitzing negatively. We have a problem. As a child I used to watch fettler teams, and always noted how many of any crew would idle by, smoking, and plying 'expert advice', and how many actually rolled up their sleeves, worked up a sweat jemmying rails and fixing the transit. Know what I mean? Nishidani (talk) 19:10, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't you ever get tired of the "I edit articles while all you guys do is comment"? 1. Nobody cares. 2. Someone needs to keep people like you honest. 3. If you think that because you edit more articles that gives you some kind of higher status, you are very much mistaken, as anyone here will tell you.

As to your source, the sentence is not rhetorical. I know you'd like to think it is, but really it isn't. He notes some pretty minor stuff like who supplies East Jerusalem with water and electricity, or the fact they were allowed to use a non-Israeli school curriculum. Moreover, the only place he uses the term "autonomy" is in relation to religious institutions, which as I noted above have the same autonomy in other areas of Israel. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:37, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm blushing at your elective vocation to keep me honest. It's very flattering to have such an attentive, if immodest proposal thrown my way, only I'm not a woman. Still, thanks.

No. In textual analysis, particularly as it developed in classical philology, any clash in interpretation is often resolved by looking at all available examples of similar thematic phrasing in an author, and by that criterion alone, you are patently wrong and being, if I may be permitted, tendentious.

If you wish to know why my reading correctly takes Dumper's single concessive clause as a rhetorical form which concedes in order to emphasize the opposite, all you need do is compare his phrasing here with what he says at 'ALREADY EXISTING PALESTINIAN AUTONOMY' regarding 'the extensive autonomy that Palestinians already have in many aspects of life in Jerusalem', adding

East Jerusalem has been exempted from a raft of Israeli laws, ranging from health and safety regulations to labor laws. The Oslo accords themselves permitted Palestinian Jerusalemites to participate in Palestinian Legislative Council elections as any other Palestinian living in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. From the Palestinian perspective, therefore, Israeli "concessions" on Jerusalem were illusions, drawing on a rhetoric of full Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem when that sovereignty does not exist in reality.' Michael Dumper, The Politics of Sacred Space:The Old City of Jerusalem in the Middle East Conflict, Lynne Rienner Publications 2002 p.163.

Israel after 1967 tried to subordinate the autonomous bodies, religious and otherwise of East Jerusalem to the Israeli state but

'The administrative framework established by the Jordanian government remained in operation and provided a relatively advanced degree of autonomy.' p.25.

Regarding Israel attempts to get the PLO to underwrite Israeli sovereignty there in 2004, its offers to devolve administrative autonomy were rejected because the PNA already had what was being offered. I.e.

'Since 1967, when Israel occupied East Jerusalem, the neglect of the Palestinian residential areas by both the Israeli Jerusalem Muncipality (of) and the central government led to the virtual absence of basic services, infrastructure development, and welfare programs. Palestinian and foreign charitable associations, religious organizations, the PLO, and the Jordanian government attempted to fill the vacuum left by the Israeli state. In these areas, the only element of the Israeli state that is visible is the restrictive planbning laws and the security forces.'p.163

You have, in short, read a few pages and seized on the rhetorical wording of one clause in only one of three of Dumper's texts, and used it to challenge what both he, and Moshe Amariv clearly state, about de facto administrative autonomy exercised by East Jerusalemites in many spheres of their public life with the consent of the occupying power. Nishidani (talk) 11:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

This is piddling, and we should not be distracted by such trivial challenges to what texts clearly state.Nishidani (talk) 11:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

It is not piddling. You are deliberately trying to confuse the reader by extrapolating the fact that some Palestinian communities manage some of their affairs that the state could (or should) be taking care of into an "autonomy" and putting it next to a statement about the State of Palestine, as if that state is the one picking up the slack. This stuff does not belong in the first paragraph of the lead, not to mention the first sentence. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:45, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

(a) 'Someone needs to keep people like you honest.' (b) 'You are deliberately trying to confuse the reader'. Um,WP:AGF. Nishidani (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

An argument on whether Palestinians exercise any control over any services or part of Jerusalem isnt necessary, as NMMNG is right on the point that it doesnt matter for the second sentence of the article. This started as a discussion about including Palestine's claim to Jerusalem as capital in the lead. Palestine, the state, doesnt control any part of Jerusalem, I dont think that can be argued. The sentence is about the state, so make it about the state. Palestine exercises no sovereignty, not Palestinians do not control. nableezy - 22:58, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I would be prepared to support the original proposal simply with the removal of "control" if that is such a big problem for some. But i strongly oppose watering down the introduction and the attempt to undermine the fact Jerusalem is Israels capital, with this additional wording now proposed before the statement of fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital though it is not internationally recognised as such. This is totally giving undue weight to the Palestinian POV and focusing on the opinions of academics whilst ignoring the reality on the ground. The current introduction is reasonable, and we should perhaps just stick with that. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:42, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

You're repeating what we have been informed of several times. Be assured that note has been taken.Nishidani (talk) 11:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

A new proposal was put, so i gave my views on it. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Just for the record and to let people know, i have posted on both the Palestine and Israel wikiprojects encouraging people to take part in this debate. Thanks. [4] [5] BritishWatcher (talk) 11:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'm fine with this proposal. I think we can say just "control" without "sovereignty", this is the lead after all. --Dailycare (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Oy!

This lead suggestion is going from bad to worse: :Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] It's this. No, it isn't! It's something else. No it isn't that either!

Nobody cares about the poor reader? Can't we just say something, anything about Jerusalem without degrading the lead into a debating society? --Ravpapa (talk) 04:27, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the poor reader one worries about is the one who happens upon the article, and comes away disinformed. Only madmen read through the motherlodes of bullshit on the edit-discussion talk page, surely. I think there's a fair provisory consensus for a modification of Tiamut's edit, and I'll support it, even though I disagree, and gladly retire from further discussion. Nishidani (talk) 09:31, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

If we had stuck with going for the original compromise proposal which people were saying they would support, then this could have been resolved. Its just a shame that additional and totally unreasonable addons are now proposed which undermine the sentences. The closest thing to consensus reached so far is the original proposal by Tiamut, possibly with a footnote to go into greater detail. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:55, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

There is no 'shame' here, and impatience on either side is unwarranted. One must take due care to see, in key articles with two POVs, that all angles are covered, and that those who express a willingness to underwrite a fresh consensual reformulation of a lead passage know exactly what is meant and implied. Since I owe my wiki life to Ravpapa, I defer to his judgement, as to several other editors with an exemplary record, and on seeing his exasperation, expressed my view above. A week is remarkably short span for an issue like this historically in the I/P area. Please note that it was also (immensely :))productive. Most would do away 'control' and just use 'sovereignty'. I hope Evansh2008 has not been put off, and if so I must apologize. He has shown himself to be a careful stylist with a flair for accommodating various views.Nishidani (talk) 11:16, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Ive said id be prepared to support removal of control too, from the original proposal in this section. But i dont support the proposals that unjustly dilutes this introduction for blatant political reasons to undermine the fact Jerusalem is israel's capital. No evidence has been produced showing a country needs international recognition for its capital, but we go out of our way to mention that it lacks it in the first sentence. The idea we start the introduction with "Jerusalem's political status is complex:". is offensive, if that was put here i guess we better go and add that to 100s of other articles on wikipedia which could equally be described as such. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Conclusion

Trial 1

I have read once more the discussions. The proposal of Tiamut brought a wide consensus. Some nuances were asked or suggested as well as some alternatives. Trying to fuse both sentences didn't get consensus as well as stating that the case was complex. On the other way, the removal of the notion of 'control' got agreement. There I suggest both following versions (A) and (B) and suggest that everybody gives his mind about the best between 3 choices :

• A for version A
• B for version B
• N for none of these (in underlying the issues of whether A or B).

---

version A : Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.^[ii] It is also the proclaimed capital of Palestine, though Palestinians, while exercising some administrative autonomy, lack sovereignty over their sector of the city.

---

version B : Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.^[ii] It is also the proclaimed capital of Palestine, though Palestinians lack sovereignty over their sector of the city.

---

• B > A - clear and short. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:14, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• N. I strongly oppose version A. I also don't like version B. What does "their sector of the city" mean? How did we jump from Palestine to Palestinians again? Why are we piping State of Palestine? I thought we agreed that was needed to disambiguate it? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 06:30, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

N. Sorry but i cant support either of those versions.. My objection is also the "Their sector of the city". Very problematic which makes it sound like more the split of Berlin than Jerusalem. Id support the original proposal with the "control" removed. So..

"Jerusalem ( /dʒəˈruːsələm/; Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם‎‎ Yerushaláyim  ; Arabic: القُدس‎ al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such,[ii]. It is also the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine, though Palestinians exercise no sovereignty over the city.".

Accepting that version compared to the current introduction is a big compromise for those of us who feel the introduction does not need changing. Saying State of Palestine, rather than just Palestine is also important. I wont support any add ons to this paragraph that blatantly favour Palestinian POV or seek to undermine the fact despite lacking international recognition, Jerusalem is Israel's capital. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:37, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'd go for B, and simply rewrite, for 'their sector of the city', 'there' (though Palestinians lack sovereignty there). I preferred 'sector of the city' because it refers clearly to the East Jerusalem where they predominate, whereas 'there' refers to the whole city. So B, yes, but if further compromise is necessary, perhaps replace the contested phrase with 'there'. I've edited Pluto's two versions to remove a slight grammatical error.Nishidani (talk) 09:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

ABORTED. Pluto2012 (talk) 12:37, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Trial 2

Given reactions here above that I had not guessed from the initial reading, I suggest the following options : Option A - Tiamut's version and Option B : one that takes into account some comments made here above.

---

Version A : :Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such,^[ii]. It is also the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine, though Palestinians exercise no control or sovereignty over the city.

---

Version B : Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.^[ii] It is also the proclaimed capital of State of Palestine, though Palestinians lack sovereignty there.

---

• A = B > N. These are both the same. Pluto2012 (talk) 12:40, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Support A This makes the most sense, i fail to see the problem with control. it is factually true that the Palestinians have no control or sovereignty over the city of Jerusalem, no matter what examples of local decision making mentioned in the previous discussion. Id back B if it was "over the city" rather than "there.". But A is what i favour, if not A or B with the modest alteration then i favour the status quo. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:49, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Modifying A and calling it Version C. Also very similar to B. Punctuation cleanup and a wording tweak give us:

Version C: Jerusalem (/dʒəˈruːsələm/; Template:Lang-he-n Yerushaláyim ; Template:Lang-ar al-Quds and/or أورشليم Ûrshalîm)^[i] is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.^[ii] It is also the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine, though Palestinians have no sovereignty over the city.

This is a minimalist change from the status quo. I believe it is the most that is needed, and would support no change at all rather than anything more elaborate. I do not understand what "A = B > N" means, in any mathematical or other sense. Hertz1888 (talk) 14:44, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Support Version C - i believe that is a reasonable compromise. It is a major change to the introduction and addresses the main concern people claimed existed. It should be version C or no change. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:56, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Support Version C (although the differences between the versions are minor and all represent improvements). As a minor point, I think the correct phrase is to "exercise sovereignty", rather than "have sovereignty". A second minor point is that I prefer "control" to "sovereignty", since also Israel lacks sovereignty over the city but as said these are minor points. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:15, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

N again - I still think the jump from State of Palestine to Palestinians is confusing. It would be like saying "the Republic of Ireland proclaims <something about Northern Ireland> though the Irish people have no sovereignty over that part of the island". Also, I'm thinking the no sovereignty issue, while clear to people who participated in this discussion, might not be clear to a casual reader. And I still think it should note they have no government institutions there. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:27, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Just for the record I think it's ghastly. This is the city that David built, where Jesus walked and where Mohammed flew; where the ground is soaked in the blood of thousands fighting for their belief, or their country, or their nation; the city that has become the symbol throughout the Judeao-Christian-Muslim world for peace, love, redemption, hate, apocalypse. And the best first sentence we can come up with is, "It's the capital of Israel (sort of), and maybe also (but maybe not) the capital of someplace else (Palestine? is there really a Palestine? Is there really an Israel?)" This is neither a vote for nor against, just a heartfelt protest against the sacrifice of clarity and energy on the altar of Wikipedese. --Ravpapa (talk) 04:25, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

You are right that should not be the first sentence. Jerusalem is much more than a topic of controversy in the I-P conflict and per WP:UNDUE this information should not start the article. Where to put it is to be discussed just after. Pluto2012 (talk) 05:47, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Ravpapa. Pythagoras, like many Greek thinkers, drew on the sand. This place is a sandpit where kids throw sand in each others' eyes. The last thing one thinks of is clear, gracious and accurate writing. Shackled as we are by POV-obsessed rule-orchestratiom rather than collaborative composition, we are left rattling our chains to make the right noises, while dreaming of the freedom of Bix Beiderbecke's trumpet to phrase around the lead. You're dead-right and wrote the right score, but we play trash here, and the word 'fiddle' is the operative word for what we can do, rather than what we would like to do.Nishidani (talk) 11:04, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Support Version C Pluto2012 (talk) 05:47, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

No worries about driving me away! I was offline for a while, but I'm back now.

The reason I've been supportive of having "control" rather than "sovereignty" in there is because I somehow imagined that "sovereignty" is a controversial term that denotes legal, rather than actual, authority over a location (which is in dispute), whereas "control" is a more generic, less controversial, term that refers to the actual physical reality on the ground (which is not in dispute). Maybe I was wrong, and if the majority of others agree that "sovereignty" is better, then I see no reason to oppose that wording.

Regarding the new concern over what the first sentence should be, I think it would be somewhat disingenuous of us to deviate from the long-held standard of beginning articles on capital cities by noting their status as capitals. For others it's simple; for Jerusalem it isn't very simple, but I think we've come up with some good compromises that are reasonably succinct and address most concerns that have been raised. Anyway, I'll stop right here and note that I:

Support Version C. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 03:18, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Control, not sovereign. "Sovereign" is the wrong word here. Because the PA does consider itself sovereign in East Jerusalem. The fact that East Jerusalem is occupied (in the eyes of the Palestinians) by a foreign power, which by force of arms does not allow the Palestinians any control over the territory, does not alter the fact that they consider it an integral part of sovereign Palestine. --Ravpapa (talk) 07:13, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Ravpapa is right. Wikipedia shouldn't say "though Palestinians have no sovereignty over the city" because it isn't a fact, it's one of several opinions. This is discussed on pages 72-74 of Ruth Lapidoth's "Jerusalem: A City and Its Future" ISBN 978-0815629139 Sean.hoyland - talk 07:35, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Ravpapa, as usual, is right, and Evanh2008's instincts are sound. I'd support C if, as per several editors we simply change sovereignty to control. I.e. The key is in 'C minor', sorry 'minus'.Nishidani (talk) 11:04, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree. To my mind, "sovereignty" represents an abstract legal concept, whereas "control", as I said, is a more concretely definable physical thing. Good call, Nishidani! Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 23:11, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Well ill support the no control over the city" rather than sovereignty. If this change is implemented i hope that neutrality template will be removed at the same time. If that is going to stay there, then i wont support any change at all because this will clearly be about a political agenda rather than making reasonable improvements to the introduction. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:53, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I think the neutrality tag should be associated with an active neutrality discussion, if there is no neutrality discussion going on we can remove the tag. --Dailycare (talk) 19:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree regarding the neutrality tag. If there are no unresolved problems, it doesn't belong there. Are we approaching something close to a consensus, then? The discussion seems to be winding down but I haven't seen much opposition to the revised wording (soverignty --> control) for C so far. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 11:20, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Version "C for Control" per Ravpapa et al. As reasonable a compromise wording achievable for such a contentious topic. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:12, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't support any of the proposed versions. If the international recognition of J as I's capital is mentioned, then so too should the international attitudes towards J as the sole capital of the State of Palestine. Ankh.Morpork 18:38, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure I quite get your point. -asad (talk) 20:03, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

The international attitudes towards Jerusalem as Israel's capital are cited in the lead. That being the case, the level of support for Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine should also be mentioned.Ankh.Morpork 16:22, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

So what is your lack of support for "any of the proposed versions" based off of? -asad (talk) 16:40, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree that sources mention levels of support for Palestine's claim to Jerusalem nearly as often as they do that Israel's claim is unrecognized. To the contrary, sources tend to say that Israel has proclaimed it the capital, but that isn't recognized and Palestinians also want E.Jer as their capital. Incidenatlly, that's what Prop C says too which is why I support it. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 19:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Do we have a consensus to go with "C" with the exception of changing "sovereignty" to "control"?-asad (talk) 12:53, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I think we have a consensus. --Dailycare (talk) 19:52, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

"I don't agree that sources mention levels of support for Palestine's claim to Jerusalem nearly as often as they do that Israel's claim is unrecognized." I accept this but I don't agree that Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine is mentioned nearly as often as J as the capital of Israel. Yet you wish to include this? I repeat that NPOV requires that if we elect to assert the lack of support regarding Israel, so too, this must be presented with regards to Palestine. Ankh.Morpork 20:04, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes I wish to include it, it's in fact what Prop C is all about. NPOV requires that all significant viewpoints are represented and this is a significant viewpoint, per reliable sources. You haven't established that what you're proposing to add is significant, much less significant enough for the lead. --Dailycare (talk) 13:55, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose change to Version C. The article currently states, "The Palestinian Authority regards East Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state." That's a much mellower way of stating what the situation is from the perspective of Palestinians than what's being proposed for the lead. I would support something like, The Palestinian leadership seeks East Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. But it shouldn't be in the same sentence as the one explaining the status of Jerusalem in Israel's context so as to avoid implying an equivalence that isn't borne out among reliable sources. It can go at the end of the first paragraph.—Biosketch (talk) 13:59, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Reliable sources do mention the Israeli and Palestinian claims next to each other: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. And how many of those sources advocate terminology such as that being pushed for in version C? The answer is zero.—Biosketch (talk) 09:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi there, as discussed immediately above, these sources are listed here to establish that reliable sources exist that mention the Israeli and Palestinian claims next to each other. If you have a separate, terminological concern, you're of course free to share it. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 16:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi to you too. None of your sources are about Jerusalem in the general sense that sources being used to generate content in the first paragraph of the lead should be. News articles that deal strictly with one aspect of Jerusalem – in this case the political situation as relates to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict – are obviously going to highlight dimensions of the city that are relevant to the story the articles're covering.—Biosketch (talk) 17:47, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Where in WP policy does it state that the sources in the lead have to relate to the "general sense" of the article? -asad (talk) 18:52, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 5 September 2012

"The article should begin with "Jerusalem is a disputed city, claimed as a capital by both the current Israel state, and the Palestinian people (whose formal statehood has not yet been established.)" This is really the only way to maitain NPOV. It begins the article, from the very beginning with a fair tone. The current article simply says that " Jerusalem *is* the Israeli capitol, though is not internationally recognized as such..." , and is obviously not a neutral position. Instead, the article is presenting, as fact, one position on a hotly contested issue. In the interest of fairness, please change this. 85.181.102.137 (talk) 17:39, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 17:52, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Such wording would be totally bias and will not get consensus. There has been some discussions above about potential changes to the introduction you could join in with. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:48, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Opening

It's been said before above, but bears repeating: the opening sentence is a disappointing product of some who seem determined to bring wikipedia down from the role of "impartial encyclopia" and into the role of propaganda.

A 'Capital' is where the government is seated, but also where embasseys are located, where other nations consult the leaders of the nation. The lead sentence completely disregards international consensus and simply state the Israeli position on the matter. The first sentence of this article is equivalent to the following statement:

"I am the world's greatest lover, though the women of the world do not recognize me as such." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Brendan.Oz (talk • contribs) 12:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Please info about the Jerusalem Hebrew (a dialect of hebrew that is only present in Jerusalem )

Jerusalem has a small dialect that is used by native to Jerusalem , with special pronanusiation and diffrent meaning for things. Example: A lolytop (סוכריה על מקל) - is addressed as suction (מציצה) Games are with diffrent names , here is a common dictionary http://www.safa-ivrit.org/dialects/jerusalem.php 109.226.53.10 (talk) 14:45, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

In Hebrew: מאתיים 200 =>>> in jerusalem =>>>> מאאתיים 200 . פארוק (talk) 16:00, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Better wording

Wouldn't it be better if the lede sentence read, "Jerusalem is claimed as the capital of Israel, though is not internationally recognized as such"? Since Israel is claiming it as its capital, but the rest of the world doesn't recognize it as that. Silverseren^C 15:42, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it would be better if is said that. --Dailycare (talk) 19:56, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

All you're missing, as usual, is a reliable source that says that non-recognition means it's not the capital. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

...what? Wouldn't that mean that, with such a source, it shouldn't be called the capital at all? I'm not following your logic. Israel is claiming it as its capital. That's obviously true. But, since its disputed (and that's affirmed by the international community), then it's POV to just say straight out that it is the capital. Silverseren^C 23:34, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we're not using the same definition of "capital". I'm using the one in the dictionary, which doesn't include the words "claim" or "recognition". How about you? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:38, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Probably not using the same definition of "Jerusalem" or "is" either. Sean.hoyland - talk 06:56, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Dear NMMNG, You are right that dictionaries define capital as "seat of government". Why, then, do almost all countries of the world think that Jerusalem is not the capital? Don't they read the dictionary? Ravpapa (talk) 07:22, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Dear Ravpapa, why do you think most countries of the world think that Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel? Allow me to remind you of the facts. Israel made Jerusalem its capital in the early 1950s. Nobody said anything. Then in 1980, Israel made "unified Jerusalem" its capital. Most countries said that law is null and void and that they don't recognize unified Jerusalem as Israel's capital. They still happily carry out their diplomatic business vis a vis their Israeli counterparts in Jerusalem, including sending their heads of state there. So I don't think saying they don't think it's the capital is correct. They just don't recognize it, for whatever that's worth. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:00, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

NMMNG, using a dictionary meaning and applying it here is SYNTH. We're constrained to write what sources say, and they say more or less what Silver seren writes above. The claim that "nobody said anything" in the 1950s isn't true, since e.g. the United States actively sought to prevent countries from establishing embassies in Jerusalem. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

DC, the only "SYNTH" I see here is your wishful thinking that we are allowed to redefine the meanings of words. A capital city is where the major government institutions are (the seat of government), whether "the world" likes it or not. It follows that the only reliable source is the country that put those institutions there and designated that city as its capital. That is not a "POV" (theirs or mine) or a "claim". RP, you are asking for speculation about motivation, something that may be off base for an article talk page. An editor was recently kicked off the talk page who made allegations that people or peoples were biased. Even if the countries give reasons, there may be unspoken underlying reasons involved. Hertz1888 (talk) 00:13, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

It would be nice if everytime someone said "A capital city is..." on this talk page they had to make a $1000 donation to the ICRC. This issue has nothing to do with opinions about the meaning of the word "capital". It will never be resolved by treating the meaning of the word "capital" as a proposition and drawing conclusions from that. The only thing that matters is that we faithfully reflect reliable sources. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

NMMNG, the reason I think that most countries don't think that Jerusalem is the capital is because that is what they say. I need not refer you to Positions on Jerusalem, where country after country is quoted as saying that Jerusalem is not recognized as the capital of Israel. The fact that countries conduct some of their diplomatic business in Jerusalem is, as you well know, because the seat of government is in Jerusalem. Which suggests to me that, differing from the rather one-dimensional definition in dictionaries, foreign ministries seem to think that "capital" and "seat of government" are not quite synonymous.

But if you really believe that the two terms are synonymous, then why do you object so strenuously to replacing the word "capital" with "seat of government" in the lead? Perhaps you, too, think there is some subtle difference between the two terms, that you haven't divulged to us for reasons known only to yourself? --Ravpapa (talk) 09:26, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

"Capital" is the common, basic, everyday word. "Seat of government" helps to define it, and vice versa, and may be synonymous. Not that you asked me, but are you prepared to change "capital" to "seat of government" in the hundreds of other articles about countries (not to mention the thousands about subdivisions of countries)? Perhaps there is "some subtle difference between the two terms". Hertz1888 (talk) 19:20, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Hertz, your comment "the only reliable source is the country that put those institutions there" surprises me, since WP:IRS doesn't work that way and I know that you, as an experienced editor, are aware of that. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 16:52, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm also aware of WP:5P, #5, sentence #2, in regard to improving Wikipedia. I'm not surprised that you are surprised. It seems to me that it follows logically that if countries alone choose their own capitals, all the published sources in the world cannot alter that status, though they may contradict it. If, moreover, the chosen capital is also the seat of government, it becomes even more difficult to deny, but isn't it curious how many words have been spent in trying to do so. "Reliable" as used here is in the original and most basic sense of the word, but of course that depends on a dictionary definition. Cheers. Hertz1888 (talk) 19:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Reading that using a dictionary to define words is SYNTH really makes spending my very precious time here worthwhile. If I was the sort of person who keeps a list of favorite talk page comments, I would certainly put that comment there. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:48, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Hertz, every time you write something, you confuse me more. "If, moreover, the chosen capital is also the seat of government..." Then you do believe there is a difference between the two? And if Israel is, as you say, the sole determiner of where its capital is, how is it possible that all these other countries disagree? Maybe they don't think, as you do, that it is the sole prerogative of a country to say where its capital is? That there has to be some sort of general international agreement before a place can be called a capital?

Moreover, I don't see why, if we change "capital" to "seat of government" in this lead, we have to do it everywhere throughout the encyclopedia. Do we also have to change "biggest" to "largest" everywhere it appears? Do we have to change "Eskimo" to "Inouit" and "Indian" to "Native American"? In the case of London, there is no dispute that it is both the capital and the seat of government of Britain. In the case of Israel, that is not so - there is a dispute. And there is a simple way to accurately depict that dispute in the lead without resorting to Middle German syntax - to call Jerusalem the seat of government, and push all the other claptrap out of the lead.

In short, your whole argument, and your unswerving dedication to obfuscation of this issue, are mystifying to me. --Ravpapa (talk) 09:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Following your logic, the article about Taiwan should say that Taiwan claims to be a state in East Asia but most of the international community doesn't recognize it or perhaps Taiwan is a politically organized body of people, occupying a definite territory in East Asia. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

This is not better wording, this is blatantly biased wording which has been discussed and rejected above. Israel is the capital of Jerusalem, but it is not internationally recognised as such. Please provide sources aaying that a country needs permission to decide its own capital city and that it is not a capital city without such recognition. Strongly oppose this proposal. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Ravpapa, do you accuse others of obfuscation whenever you miss the point? That is not WP:AGF, but never mind. You are missing the point (or points) here, so I'll try to clarify further. There is no compelling reason to change capital to a less commonplace, less straightforward term, here or in those other articles. Why do you favor such a change only for Israel? As for your "sole determiner" questions, we don't know that those other countries disagree, or what they "think", only that they withhold formal recognition, for whatever that's worth, and for whatever reasons. I won't speculate on why they do what they do. Clear enough? Hertz1888 (talk) 17:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The fact that all countries but one (or is it three?) refuse to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel seems to me reason compelling enough to make the change. And as for speculating why they do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital, you don't have to speculate. They all say it pretty clearly: they do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital because they do not consider Jerusalem part of Israeli sovereign territory, at least not until there is a final resolution of the conflict. They think it improper for a country to declare its capital on land not its own. Frankly, while I personally disagree with them, I can see their point.

In response to NMMNG's comment: I am not much of an expert on Taiwan, but, yes, I think it would be proper to include mention of its disputed political status in the lead. But Taiwan's political status, dubious though it might be, is still far more secure than Jerusalem's: 22 countries still maintain full diplomatic relations with Taiwan, One country, as far as I know (Micronesia) formally recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

Anyway, as enjoyable as I find this rather bizarre exchange of views, I find the fruitlessness of it overcoming my urge to continue. On this matter, see my post Zugzwang above. So I will not be posting on this again for a while. Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 19:29, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

NMMNG, using dictionary definitions we might also come up with (just mentioning this as an example) "Israel is a terrorist organization". Do you support including that in the lead of Israel? I don't, because I think we should simply follow the normal process and say what high-quality sources say about the subject. What Taiwan says turns on what reliable sources have to say about Taiwan. If reliable sources say Taiwan is inhabited exclusively by fluffy pink rabbits, that absolutely goes in the article. Hertz, are you suggesting that we, as an exception, don't follow policy here? WP:NPOV states quite clearly that "This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it", so we do have to follow it if we want to have an article on Jerusalem. --Dailycare (talk) 20:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, I tried. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 23:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

We go by policy, we state the facts. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but it is not internationally recognised as such. That is balanced and fair. Adding additional qualifiers here would not be in line with how numerous other articles are treated. Due weight is given, to the international communities lack of recognition of Israel's capital whilst no evidence by those demanding change has been produced to demonstrate that international recognition or embassies are a requirement for something to qualify as a nations capital. We should go with the reasonable compromise which was discussed in the section above or make no change at all. There is a blatant attempt here to bias this article in favour of the Palestinians. Its very unreasonable. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:06, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, if we go by policy, we state what reliable sources say. Not what we think are facts. --Dailycare (talk) 18:52, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Reliable sources say the international community do not recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Thats what the introduction says. BritishWatcher (talk) 07:14, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Here is a reliable source, which says "Israel controls Jerusalem, and claims it as its (...) capital". Here is another, which says "The policy of most governments, including Britain's, is that they will recognise West Jerusalem as Israel's capital when East Jerusalem is the agreed capital of a Palestinian state". Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:32, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

You just added a POV tag to a sentence that was the result of a long discussion and eventual consensus, which you have been fighting against for what, years now? Please explain why you decided to add it now. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

DC, in years of discussions, no one has been able to show that non-recognition of a country's capital means that it is not the capital. You have been asked to source such a principle (one which is contrary to the standard definition of a capital), and have not done so. Is the POV tag your response? If so, it looks very much like an attempt to game the system. There is no consensus to change the lead, and the tag itself is a change to the lead. It introduces doubt that goes against the previous decision to make a clear, positive statement (but also mention non-recognition, as balance, though some have deemed such mention as giving undue weight). You are upsetting that balance. I am going to be bold and remove the tag.

Perhaps you will tell us exactly what city is the capital of Israel. Some "reliable" sources have said that since Jerusalem is not recognized as such, Tel Aviv must be the capital. Do we put that into the article? No, because we don't do fringe theories. As you yourself have said, we go by policy. Hertz1888 (talk) 04:09, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Jerusalem is a settlement, not a city

Before I take any other action, I wondered if editors here have any ideas about how to deal with Jerusalem "neighborhoods/residential areas/places" that are considered settlements. Some editors have taken the position that A) being a settlement preclude these places (ex. Gilo) from being anything else, and have consistently replaced any descriptive terminology with "settlement", or that B) "neighborhood" etc. is a POV attributable to Israel, secondary to the majority POV of settlement. The sources clearly demonstrate that even pro-Palestinian advocates talk about these places as neighborhoods that are also settlements, so that we now, on Wikipedia, have created a novel position and redefinition of the English language that neither Israelis or Palestinians advocate. I've found that it is extremely difficult to get editors to address these sources, or even to bring their own. I am open to everyone's thoughts. Sources below:

• Saeb Erekat, head of the PLO's negotiating department {...} also Jewish neighborhoods like Ramot and Gilo are settlements for all intents and purposes."
• A new Israeli Neighborhood on the lands of Jerusalem city
• "As opposed to the large neighborhoods built in East Jerusalem, Ir Amim uses the term "settlements" in Jerusalem mainly for Jewish construction in the heart of Palestinian neighborhoods at the initiative of settler organizations,"
• "In East Jerusalem and its environs, which Israel annexed to the municipality of Jerusalem after 1967, there are 12 large Israeli neighborhoods that are also deemed settlements under international law."
• "This will be the first new Israeli settlement neighborhood established in East Jerusalem since Har Homa. "
• "In these annexed lands Israel built 12 Jewish neighborhoods,"

Best regards, Aslbsl (talk) 08:24, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Settlement neighborhoods seems like a good compromise to me. Futurist110 (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Repetition in lead

The lead stated ...is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such." This is despite a different paragraph in the lead discussing the legality of Jerusaelem which includes the sentence, "The international community does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital". I have removed the initial statement regarding international recognition as this repetition seems unnecessary. Ankh.Morpork 20:24, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that single sentence is reasonable for the first sentence.. however the proposals that some seek to impose on this introduction are totally unreasonable and would cause needless repetition with little benefit but to bias the article in favour of the palestinian POV. BritishWatcher (talk) 07:18, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

I am not proposing to alter the POV presented in the article; that is being exhaustively discussed in other threads. What I would like to understand is why the current POV is being presented in the manner that it is, namely, repeated twice within the lead in separate paragraphs and why this is necessary. Ankh.Morpork 12:49, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

By your argument, the whole line should be removed, including "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel," as that note is repeated as well ("Israel's Basic Law refers to Jerusalem as the country's 'undivided capital'"). Arguing for one, but not the other, really makes your point seem like disingenuous POV-pushing that is wasteful to everyone's time. -asad (talk) 13:39, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Positions on Jerusalem

Recently a number of editors have felt that the lead of Jerusalem needs tweaking. Remember that the lead is supposed to summarize what is in the body of the article. To begin your planned reform by changing the lead might lead to dispute if you haven't carefully studied the later part of the article which it is trying to summarize. The main Jerusalem article is not the only place these issues are discussed. One might assume that Positions on Jerusalem would contain the most detailed explanation of the diplomatic status of Jerusalem, according to the UN and various governments. Why not read that one over first if you think that there is some imbalance in how Wikipedia currently describes the status of Jerusalem. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 21:22, 12 September 2012 (UTC)