Wikipedia talk:Requested moves

Does "no consensus to move" mean "consensus to not move"?

I suggest there are three following basic RESULTs from an RM discussion:

1. Consensus is to move
2. No clear consensus either way
3. Consensus is to not move

It has been claimed [1] that "no consensus to move" is different from #2, suggesting it means #3. Does it?

In any case, I think the following RESULT phrases should be avoided in closes, because they are ambiguous as to whether the outcome is #2 or #3 in the above list:

• "No move"
• "No consensus to move"

Instead, I propose using any of the three above RESULT phrases (or anything equally unambiguous).

What about adding something to this effect in the closing instructions?

Thanks. --B2C 23:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The result of an RM is either "move" or "don't move". If there is consensus to move, then do it; otherwise, not. Moving without consensus (whatever the basis, including a necessarily subjective analysis of the strengths of the various arguments) is a recipe for increased chaos and conflict. Omnedon (talk) 23:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm just saying if the result is to not move, to be clear about whether that's because there is no consensus, or because there is consensus to not move. --B2C 23:58, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

That's going to be subjective too. There are frequently disagreements in which some will claim there is consensus and others will claim there is none. The result, move or don't move, is objective. Omnedon (talk) 00:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

• I agree with B2C, and do not approve of closing a discussion with a mere "moved" or "not moved". A discussion is only properly closed with a finding of consensus or no consensus. Without referring to the consensus, if any, it makes the discussion look like a vote. If the closer can't distil a consensus or declare no consensus, he should not be closing. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:26, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I never said that a move should only be closed with the words "moved" or "not moved". I'm saying that the perception of consensus is subjective, and that each editor has his/her own interpretation of the word "consensus". I certainly would not agree that the phrase "no consensus to move" should be avoided, if that's what describes the situation. Omnedon (talk) 12:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Omnedon, I hadn't meant to address your comment, but if I did I might point out that a RM is concluded by a closer reading the consensus, and summarising if needed, and that the "result" obtainable from the move log is not a sufficient closing statement. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:29, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

• You're right, B2C. Moved means consensus to move. Not moved means consensus against the move. No consensus means just that, usually resulting in no move but possibly reverting per WP:BRD at the admin's discretion (IMO it's a bridge too far for a non-admin closer, but it may depend on the circumstances). That's how I close, anyway. I interpret No move as Not moved and No consensus to move as No consensus. --BDD (talk) 18:38, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• I, for one, wish you wouldn't use Not moved as short hand for "consensus to not move". Many unfamiliar participants in RM discussions, and aren't we agreed that more would be desirable, won't know to come here to read your key. A mere "not moved" can read as weak or ambiguous English passive voice and a euphemism for "no consensus" without detailed explanation. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:25, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I didn't just make that up; those are terms that have been used by plenty of other editors. In practice, there's rarely a difference between a no consensus and not moved result anyway. --BDD (talk) 05:38, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

• No consensus always defaults to the status quo. It is not en endorsement of one option or another, but a recognition that there is no consensus to change what already exists. --Jayron32 03:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

• User:Jayron32 - where do you get this policy from? My understanding is that no consensus means that the long standing or original version should take precedence. The status quo may have arisen due to any combination of bolds, reverts, edit wars, protections etc. and should not normally be assumed to have any higher right than another version. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 11:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

While I broadly agree with Jayron, I hope he understands that blind adherence to that principle would be an open invitation for gaming the system, allowing a user to make a contentious move and have it win out over a stable title just because consensus couldn't be reached in a subsequent RM. No consensus should almost always mean no move, but a closer should exercise judgment in such circumstances. --BDD (talk) 16:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Jayron32, with the following sort of workaround sometime times needed, as per yogurt. In a fresh discussion, acknowledge the established no consensus on the merits of each side, stop discussing the merits of each side, and explicitly consider a meta-principle such as WP:RETAIN. Consensus depends on the question being asked. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:05, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I also tend to agree with Jayron, as long as WP:CONSENSUS is properly determined through an analysis of the arguments made, including a policy-based weighing of the arguments, rather than by counting !votes.

What seems to happen all too often is that this analysis is not made if there is no obvious majority of !votes in favor or opposed to the proposal. Just because the !vote results are approximately 50/50 does not mean there is no consensus. Only an analysis of the arguments - which should be explained in the closing statements - can determine whether there is consensus. If one side is dominated by policy-based arguments, while the other side is dominated with JDLI arguments like "no good reason to move" (without explaining why the stated reasons are not good), then consensus should be found in favor of the former side. --B2C 22:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a pretty deep problem with Wikipedia procedure. If a closer is lucky, discussion is one-sided. In the example you mention, sure, it's easy to come down on the side that's making policy-based arguments. But in the great majority of discussions I've seen, both sides are making policy-based arguments! (Say, for example, COMMONNAME vs. MOS:TM. Hypothetically.) So there ends up being a really, really fine line between judicious weighing of votes and supervotes. A cynic might say it's entirely in the eye of the beholder. I'm not agitating for Athenian democracy or anything, but in practice, many discussions are a vote. If we could just be honest about that, I think it could go a long way to cooling some heated discussions. Is it just me, is MRV much more active than it used to be? --BDD (talk) 00:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Per BDD, the only people who ever argue that "It's not a vote" are people for whom the close did not result in the ends they wanted themselves. You are correct, it isn't a vote, and you are correct that arguments matter, but there is also an important reminder that arguments for the opposite position are not automatically invalid. People too often discount the rationales for arguments because the consider the rationales soundness to be based solely on the conclusions. That is, people a priori invalidate (in there minds) any rationale which is proposed by someone who votes the opposite as they did. While it is true that there are sometimes discussions where there are a bulk of bad rationales on one side, and only good ones on the other, in my experience the existence of individual examples of those kinds discussions like that is not statistically significant over all Wikipedia discussions. Almost always, a 50/50 discussion is going to be validly closed as "no consensus". The fact that one can find individual examples of some that shouldn't doesn't mean that nearly all of them shouldn't also. --Jayron32 02:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

There are certainly genuine no consensus discussions! I'm sure they comprise the majority of those closed as no consensus. And of course everyone is subject to bias and sometimes doesn't see the validity of the other side. But often there really is nothing, or almost nothing, on the other side.

I'm sorry to bring up Yogurt again, but it really is the quintessential example. Over 9 years 7 different RM discussions were closed as "no consensus" even though since the first one the same arguments that ultimately prevailed and resolved the situation were present, heavily favoring Yogurt over Yoghurt in terms of policy. Yet 7 different closers, trying to be fair, I'm sure, went with 50/50 !vote counts. I don't doubt they genuinely believed neither side was stronger, but their analysis was flawed, seven times in a row!!!.

Look at the very first discussion[2], from 2005. From the outset they argued "the original location of this page was at Yogurt" and "[Yoghurt spelling] is internationally uncommon". More notably, not a single Oppose argument says anything substantive in support of Yoghurt over Yogurt. Nothing. Each and every RM discussion subsequent to that was essentially no different. Proper analysis of each should have resulted in the same result: consensus favors moving. --B2C 04:21, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Again, as I noted, the existence of individual examples does not in anyway invalidate the idea that the bulk of such discussions closed as no consensus properly deserve to be closed as such. Since tough cases make bad policy, there's nothing to be gained in using the oddball case as a means to indicate that any change to policy or practice is needed. People behaving silly cannot be ameliorated by any policy changes, unless the silliness is widespread. No evidence has been presented as such. The yogurt case is useful for nothing more than a good shrug of the shoulders and a dismissive shake of the head, not as an indicator that any substantial changes need to be made to the way move discussions are handled. --Jayron32 04:44, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with the bulk of discussions closed as no consensus. But I do believe that Yogurt exemplifies a significant number (10%? 5%? 20%? 2%? I don't know) of such closes. Remember, it's not like Yogurt was closed one or twice as "no consensus"... that happened 7 times in a row. Dismissing it with a "good shrug of the shoulders" is blaming the participants in those discussions, without holding the closers responsible for their lack of analysis in each of those 7 closes. And even in the final/8th RM, when it was finally determined that there was consensus favoring the move, it was largely because a majority of those participating favored the move ("As there is strong consensus for the move in the discussion, ..."[3]). So it's not clear that even the final RM was a result of a proper analysis of the arguments. If that time a sufficient number of opposers posted the JDLI !votes to prevent a majority in support, I'm quite confident the result would have been once again "no consensus", even though, as in all of the other RMs, the strong policy-based arguments favoring the move were there, and those opposing the move were absent.

Decisions that find "no consensus" due to a !vote count despite consensus support per argument analysis are a minority, I'm sure (if nothing else because often when the participants are 50/50 so are the arguments), but still all too common. The most recent notable one I can think of is the reverse of Hillary Clinton at the move review[4], which demonstrated virtually no evidence of argument analysis (in stark and ironic contrast to the outstanding well reasoned RM close decision that it reviewed and reversed), and seemed almost entirely based on !vote counting. --B2C 05:34, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Your steadfast support for the supervote close at HRC RM5, and disdain for the review is clear evidence that your views are at odds with the community, which for all useful purposes means that you are "wrong". HRC is not like yogurt. For HRC, the better quality sources, on academic and high reputation of publishing measures, sees a predominating usage of "Hillary Rodham Clinton" in titling and initial introductions. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

B2C, a closer has to be very careful performing "an analysis of the arguments made". Analysis of others' arguments is am important job for the discussion. If a closer performs an argument analysis that is outside the content of the discussion, it is a supervote, a contribution that is better made as an ordinary participant. If he is right, his !voting makes the close so much more convincing by a later closer. The applicability of various policies, their ambiguities, their poor writing (see WP:COMMONNAME today), their susceptibility to self-selected biased policy editors, are all things best discussed explicitly and not ruled by a self-selecting closer. Consensus is a process, and when it is achieved, "analysis" is not required to see it. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:27, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, analysis must be done very carefully, and should not stray outside the content of the discussion (except sometimes the application of applicable non-controversial policy/guideline which is assumed to be the expression of community consensus).

I agree consensus is a process, but it is not limited to the actual relatively tiny minority of the community involved in any one discussion. The agreement of all five people in a given discussion who have no idea what the relevant policy/guideline/conventions are do not a true consensus make. This is why "The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, those that show no understanding of the matter of issue." [5] --B2C 04:21, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

It is the participants who should highlight weak arguments. Often, weak arguments turn out to be strong arguments poorly stated, when challenged and supported. Participants should be encouraged to assess and critique others arguments, not the closer. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

With the caveat that irrelevant does NOT mean "that which I disagree with". --Jayron32 04:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Of course. WP:JDLI is a pretty apt description of what qualifies as irrelevant arguments. --B2C 05:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:JDLI seems to be frequently used to deride opposing positions, pretending they have no substance. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

B2C, you seem to be saying that the first seven yogurt RMs were closed incorrectly, which I think is a dubious claim. Your analysis of the arguments showed one thing; others' analyses were different. I am not saying it is easy to respect arguments with which one disagrees -- but it's certainly problematic to just dismiss anything that disagrees with one's own position. Yes, some positions are truly JDLI -- when someone clearly states "I don't like it" and offers no substantiation. But when reasons and arguments are given, they will come in various forms from various editors. Everyone thinks and expresses differently than everyone else. That doesn't mean their arguments can simply be brushed aside. Omnedon (talk) 13:57, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

SmokeyJoe, can you provide any examples of arguments that were based well in policy/guidelines that were characterized as JDLI in order to deride them? You claim it happens frequently, so examples should be easy to find. I ask because I can't recall ever seeing that.

Anyway, even if it does happen, that's besides the point, as characterizing solid arguments as JDLI is not what I was talking about. I'm saying that if one reads WP:JDLI, he should get a pretty good idea of the difference between relevant and irrelevant arguments. --B2C 17:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I refer to your own use of JDLI assertions referring to other's arguments. While JDLI arguments should be avoided, so should the labelling of opponents arguments as JDLI. JDLI is far to easily ascribed to an argument that you personally don't value. It is far better to try work out why someone doesn't like some something. Often, there is a good reason requiring further discussion, not administrative rejection. JDLI should be avoided by all on both sides. If someone did not use those exact words, you should not assert that their words amount to JDLI. Closers should be very hesitant to label arguments as JDLI, unless obvious and the point is to point newcomers to the essay for their educational benefit. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:17, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Omnedon, I'm saying the first seven yogurt RMs were closed incorrectly. The arguments were the same from the first RM. Nothing relevant changed to any significant degree. There was no substantive difference between the arguments presented in the first 7 RMs than in the 8th RM. The opposition never had a single policy-based point except "maintain the status quo" - it was WP:Status quo stonewalling, pure and simple. The analysis of the same arguments in each of the 8 RMs should have produced the same result: consensus is to move.

The problem is that there was no analysis. Instead, whether they realized it or not, each of the closers simply looked at the approximate 50/50 distribution of the !votes and concluded there was no consensus. If there was any argument analysis going on, they certainly did not leave any evidence of that in their closing comments. --B2C 17:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC) I'm not done analyzing all 8 of the RMs yets, but I can already see I want to refine some of my statements above, which I will strikeout here, and add an update below when I'm finished (did 1-5 so far). --B2C 19:54, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, B2C, you are entitled to your opinion on that. I certainly have not analyzed the "yogurt" history and so will not try to get into the details of it. It just seems unlikely that 7 closers in a row would come to the same conclusion and all be utterly wrong. There are various ways of viewing this issue of "no consensus", as evidenced by the long discussions on the issue in various places. You have a very strongly-held view, but it's not the only one. Omnedon (talk) 17:28, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

In theory, it's certainly possible for consensus to develop and move one way or another from "no consensus" over a series of discussions like that. So I don't mean to imply that that alone proves those closes were wrong.

Why does it seem unlikely that 7 closers in a row would come to the same conclusion and all be wrong? In each of those discussions, there was no majority supporting or opposing the proposal. How often do you see a closer determine consensus favors a move when a majority of those participating in the discussion don't support the move? Talk about unlikely! But that's the problem. Of course it's perfectly appropriate in the 90% (?) of cases in which there is no majority support or opposition, and no consensus in terms of weighing the arguments, to determine there is no consensus. But the problem is in the 10% (or whatever) in which although there is no majority support or opposition, there is consensus in terms of argument analysis. That 10% (?) is a problem because closers are inclined to close those as "no consensus" as well.

My contention is that all 7 of the first 7 Yogurt RMs fall into that category. I mean, you don't have to go through the whole history. Just look through the first RM[6]. What does your analysis of the arguments there tell you? Keep in mind what closers are supposed to do: "The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, those that show no understanding of the matter of issue." [7] --B2C 23:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

B2C, I find it interesting that you would put forward the first yogurt RM as an example of "JDLI on one side and policy-based arguments on the other". There were reasons given on both sides, fairly briefly in all cases (as was requested: "an optional one-sentence explanation"). Some both sides had no explanation at all; some on both sides had cogent explanations. It seems a clear case of "no consensus", and the result was valid. This only underscores my assertion that there are various ways of viewing "no consensus". Omnedon (talk) 12:29, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

It can look that way at first glance, but if you take a close look it's quite different. To that end, I added a detailed analysis of RM #1 to the yogurtspellinghistory page. In summary,

• 12 of the 30 !votes were of the JDLI variety
• 4 were nonsensical (I explain why for each)
• 12 supported the move to Yogurt with a citation of primary author/original use argument, and/or the COMMON NAME argument
• only one person opposing, jguk, even hinted about relying on policy (but ignored the original author/original use argument presented in the proposal). Well, you can argue Derek Ross did too, in that he noted that "Yoghurt" was popular on Google/Yahoo (arguably trying to rely on COMMONNAME), but Tony Jin countered by noting that "Yogurt" was even more popular there, and this was not challenged.

Even if you generously count both of these !votes that favor the h as strong policy-based reasons, they are overwhelmed by the 12 !votes backed by policy-based reasons in support of Yogurt.

By the way, I also have found similar results in the analysis of RMs #2[8] and #3[9].

I would appreciate it if you looked these over. If you think I'm overlooking something significant, please let me know (or revise the analyses accordingly). Thanks! --B2C 20:18, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Yesterday I reviewed #4[10], which I think obviously should have been closed with consensus in favor of "Yogurt". Not only was that the majority result of the !votes for the first time, but the argument analysis was, again, overwhelmingly in favor of "yogurt".

I also just finished my analysis of RM #5[11]. In my view that was the first one properly closed as "no consensus", entirely because of a then-new (2009) Arbcom ruling (regional variant ceasefire) that finally gave the Opposers some basis in policy. But there were also valid questions about that decision's applicability in this particular case, not to mention other considerations. Still, this is the first time where I can say the closer's "no consensus" decision was obviously reasonable, and closing it any other way would have been highly questionable. --B2C 19:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

B2C, you automatically assume that all I did was glance at it. I did not. I simply disagree with your analysis. The responses were very short, as was typical of the process at that time, and your claims of "policy-based" reasons are questionable. As I've said before, not everyone will come up with the same analysis, and this definitely seems to have been a clear "no-consensus" situation. Omnedon (talk) 12:19, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I assumed nothing about what you did, as I have no idea, as you gave no indication. You make declarations without explanation, like "this definitely seems to have been a clear 'no-consensus' situation". I understand that is your opinion. But while I provide a detailed explanation for why my opinion is what it is, you provide absolutely nothing to explain why your opinion is what it is, except to note that the responses were short and that was typical at the time, suggesting you assigned equal (or near equal) weight to the following actual responses in determining consensus.

• Oppose. Proteus (Talk) 12:10, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
• Support: primary author (as per PBS) and more common name rubric (per MoS) seem to point in the same direction in this case. This article was Jonathunder 02:22, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

Is that not basically ignoring reasons and simply counting !votes? --B2C 15:51, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

B2C, you continue to make wrong assumptions. I said I had looked at it, and found no consensus. I don't tend to go into the hugely detailed explanations and defenses that you do. But since you gave examples, here are two counter-examples:

• Oppose. Article is in British English and should use the most common spelling in Britain. It's also the original spelling (as the article notes at the bottom), jguk 22:00, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
• Support. violet/riga (t) 20:59, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

You really need to accept that others are going to have different views than you. You tend to dismiss others' views unless they satisfy your demands for extensive support. I repeat: I have looked this over in some detail, examined the reasons, and see a clear no-consensus situation. Omnedon (talk) 16:53, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I know and accept that others have differing views. But what I want to understand is why, and, in particular, how sound the reasons are.

If you think your counter-example is a counter to my point, you're missing my point, entirely. In my analysis, I did not give the violet/riga Support !vote any weight for the same reason I did not give the Proteus !Oppose vote any weight: these are pure JDLI expressions of preference without basis in anything, much less policy. That JDLI category was comprised of 12 of the 30 !votes (9 oppose and 3 support).

As to the jguk reasoning, I accounted for it as follows in my analysis:

The only other substantive policy based argument was offered by jguk:

* Oppose. Article is in British English and should use the most common spelling in Britain. It's also the original spelling (as the article notes at the bottom), jguk 22:00, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

But this ignored the original author/original use argument, though nobody explicitly pointed this out.

Even if you give the jguk Oppose !vote considerable weight, the support side is still overwhelming after the 12 blatant JDLIs like violet/riga and Proteus, and the four nonsense !votes, are discounted.

That's why I continue to wonder how you or anyone else could actually find "no consensus", if not by giving all !votes equal weight, including the ones that say nothing except express their preference, and the ones that are nonsensical. That is, are you discarding irrelevant arguments per Wikipedia:Closing_discussions#Consensus, or not? --B2C 21:55, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you wonder how anyone else could ever come up with a decision that disagrees with yours on this. That is the basic problem here -- not the meaning of "consensus", but the fact that you refuse to accept alternatives to your own view. You keep claiming "policy-based arguments/reasons" in RM#1, but I see few direct references to policy on either side. Nevertheless, there were some respondents on both sides did provide cogent reasons. A few gave the reason that the argument to move was very weak; that's perfectly valid, since the default position in a move request is to leave it where it is unless consensus is reached to perform the move. Several others opposed the move based on common use. Since no consensus was reached, the article was not moved. You really must learn to accept that other perspectives exist and may be valid -- not just yours. This is the ongoing problem with almost any discussion in which you are involved. Omnedon (talk) 01:46, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I understand that you disagree that, based on evaluating the arguments in RM #1, there is clear consensus to move. What I still don't understand is how you are evaluating the arguments to come to that conclusion. You give reasons, but they don't seem to hold up to the lightest of scrutiny.

• "I see few direct references to policy on either side"
  • Me too, but I presume we agree (correct me if I'm wrong) that an indirect reference, like "the primary author used Yogurt" is just as valid as a direct reference, as in:

    My reference to the MoS was based on Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English, where one bulleted point states, "If an article is predominantly written in one type of English, aim to conform to that type rather than provoking conflict by changing to another." Further support is the final bulleted point, which suggests "following the spelling style preferred by the first major contributor".

  In my documented analysis I listed 11 instances of references to policy in support ("primary author/original use argument, and/or the COMMON NAME argument") that were indirect if not direct. The ONLY reference to policy, direct or indirect, made by the oppose side was by jguk, unless you also count Derek Ross's statement about popularity on Google/Yahoo, in which case you also have to give Tony Jin's reference equal or more weight. So that's either 11:1 or 12:2. Does your analysis differ in this regard?

• "there were some respondents on both sides did provide cogent reasons."
  • Yes, 11 (or 12) in support, and 1 (or 2) in opposition, provided cogent reasons. I listed them. If your count is much different, please identify those you believe to be cogent on both sides, and, if your list is substantially different from mine, what is not cogent about those on my list but not on yours, and vice versa?
• "A few gave the reason that the argument to move was very weak; that's perfectly valid, since the default position in a move request is to leave it where it is unless consensus is reached to perform the move."
  • Really? Don't you think that simply stating the fact that the default position in a no consensus discussion is to not move is not itself a valid argument to be weighed in deciding what consensus, if any, there is in that discussion? I mean, that fact determines the consequence of what to do in the case of "no consensus"; it is not relevant to determining IF there is consensus. Right?

    Also, how does simply declaring one's opinion that an opposing argument "seems very weak", without explaining why it is believed to be weak, not pure JDLI? In fact, WP:JDLI#Because I say so describes precisely such "statements of opinion that the editor expects to be accepted as fact" as being JDLI.

    (By the way, I realize I am often accused of expecting my opionions to be accepted as fact, but that's not true. To the contrary, I explain the reasons and reasoning for making my statements to the extent that I'm also often accused of being tendentious, but I abhor my own unexplained statements of opinion as much as anyone else's, so that's why I tend to err on the verbose side. Further, I am always willing to explain any statement I have made per request when I did not initially provide it, probably because I assumed it was not required. I do not expect my opinions to be taken as fact; I expect them to be evaluated and assessed.)

• Several others opposed the move based on common use.
  • Back to Derek Ross and jguk. Again, the only 2 arguably policy-substantive !votes in opposition.
• Since no consensus was reached, the article was not moved.
  • Whether consensus was reached is what we're discussing here. The closer declared "no consensus" based entirely on counting !votes: "There are 14 "Support" votes (plus 1 for the proposer) which is equal with 15 "Oppose" votes. No one side has at any stage been more than two votes ahead. It's a tie - ...".

    That's determining consensus by counting !votes, not by evaluating the arguments.

Determining consensus in RM #1 by evaluating the arguments clearly shows strong support for moving. --B2C 18:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

You sound like a broken record. I've heard all of this from you before. Even by evaluating the reasons given on each side, there was clearly no consensus, and so the article was not moved. As has been asked of you many, many, many times in the past (by many, many editors) -- please acknowledge that not everyone will come to the same conclusion, and please stop stating (essentially) that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Omnedon (talk) 19:11, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not stating or thinking anything like that. Only you are operating at the personal "YOU/I are/am RIGHT/WRONG" plane.

Of course I acknowledge others may reach different conclusions, but what conclusion any given PERSON (you, me or anyone else) reaches is irrelevant; what matters, and where the focus of any discussion like this should be, is how well a given conclusion is or is not supported by the various arguments being presented. As long as the focus remains on who believes or concludes what, it's very difficult to make progress.

Now, to that end, with respect to the argument you presented above and how well it supports the "no consensus" conclusion, you've heard my explanation of how the reasons you just gave above for the first time don't support that conclusion, before? Or is this an excuse to avoid further discussion on whether the "no consensus" conclusion is well supported by those reasons? --B2C 20:30, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Really? What about your statement above -- "That's why I continue to wonder how you or anyone else could actually find "no consensus"..." That is absolutely dismissing any view other than your own. Please stop doing that. You have pledged to do so before, been warned to do so many times, yet you will not stop. Omnedon (talk) 01:35, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Going back to the original question here. As I see it, there are actually more than three Determinations possible in any RM discussion:

1. Consensus strongly supports move
2. Consensus weakly supports move
3. No consensus can be determined.
4. Consensus weakly supports not move
5. Consensus strongly supports not move

Hell, you could probably come up with modifiers that range between all these.
However, no matter how many variations you come up with, there are only two outcomes that stem from those determinations:

1. The page is moved
2. The page is not moved.

The simple fact is, some people will not be happy with either outcome, no matter how it was determined. When the consensus is strong, the "losers" usually accept the outcome with some degree of grace. When the consensus is weak, they usually do so grudgingly. And when there is no consensus it is very difficult to accept. Everyone on both sides is sure that their arguments were better than those of the other side. Closers need to remember that when writing up their rational. It is helpful to acknowledge which arguments on both sides influenced your decision... so that those on both sides will at least understand that their arguments were understood and paid attention to. Blueboar (talk) 22:55, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

It's complicated even more by the fact that although we say consensus is determined by argument evaluation, closers often are reluctant to against the majority or find in favor when the !votes appear to be about evenly split, no matter how much stronger the arguments may be on one side.

So if you look at

!vote count result, consensus per argument analysis, likely outcome

The possibilities are:

STRONG SUPPORT, STRONG SUPPORT, MOVE

STRONG SUPPORT, WEAK SUPPORT, MOVE

STRONG SUPPORT, NO CONSENSUS, ???

STRONG SUPPORT, WEAK OPPOSE,???

STRONG SUPPORT, STRONG OPPOSE, ???

WEAK SUPPORT, STRONG SUPPORT, MOVE

WEAK SUPPORT, WEAK SUPPORT, MOVE

WEAK SUPPORT, NO CONSENSUS, ???

WEAK SUPPORT, WEAK OPPOSE, ???

WEAK SUPPORT, STRONG OPPOSE, ???

NO CONSENSUS, STRONG SUPPORT, ???

NO CONSENSUS, WEAK SUPPORT, ???

NO CONSENSUS, NO CONSENSUS, NO MOVE

NO CONSENSUS, WEAK OPPOSE,???

NO CONSENSUS, STRONG OPPOSE, NO MOVE

WEAK OPPOSE, STRONG SUPPORT, ???

WEAK OPPOSE, WEAK SUPPORT, ???

WEAK OPPOSE, NO CONSENSUS, ???

WEAK OPPOSE, WEAK OPPOSE, NO MOVE

WEAK OPPOSE, STRONG OPPOSE, NO MOVE

STRONG OPPOSE, STRONG SUPPORT, ???

STRONG OPPOSE, WEAK SUPPORT, ???

STRONG OPPOSE, NO CONSENSUS, NO MOVE

STRONG OPPOSE, NO CONSENSUS, NO MOVE

STRONG OPPOSE, WEAK OPPOSE, NO MOVE

STRONG OPPOSE, WEAK OPPOSE, NO MOVE

STRONG OPPOSE, STRONG OPPOSE, NO MOVE

Personally, I advocate ignoring the first column. That would get rid of the question marks. --B2C 23:24, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Consensus is *NOT* determined by argument evaluation. If analysis is required, it is not consensus. A consensus is obvious without analysis. While consensus doesn’t mean that everyone agrees with the result, it does mean that everybody agrees that it is the consensus.

Consensus is a process, and achieving consensus in difficult situations requires as much refinment of the question as of negotiation and analysis of positions. B2C’s approach, that a consensus can be determined by analysis, and according to defined rules is not consensus, nor WP:Consensus. It is even outside of reasonable interpretations of Rough consensus and WP:Rough consensus.

The other thing B2C doesn’t seem to appreciate is that an important part of these discussions is mutual learning and education. If multiple people don’t get your argument, it is not OK to dismiss them.

Arguments presented here, that even in a “no consensus” there is a consensus to do something, must be rejected. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:49, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

On your first point, you seem to be using the dictionary definition of consensus (consent of all participants) rather than the WP:CONSENSUS meaning used on Wikipedia. On WP, consensus is determined by evaluating the arguments. Remember, the closer of a discussion is not determining the consensus of the discussion participants, but the consensus of the WP community based on the arguments presented in that discussion. Per Wikipedia:Closing_discussions#Consensus:

The closer is there to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, those that show no understanding of the matter of issue.

In order to discard irrelevant arguments, argument evaluation is absolutely necessary, so determining consensus is done by evaluating arguments. There is no requirement that everyone must agree the consensus determined by the closer is the consensus. You totally made that up.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you start referring to "according to defined rules". I've never argued that, and certainly haven't here. You seem to make up stuff in your head about what I'm saying, and reply to that. Very difficult to have a coherent discussion under those terms... Please address what I'm saying with my actual written words in this and all of our discussions. Thank you. --B2C 21:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

"evaluation" is a grand word to describe "discarding irrelevant arguments", etc.

"Analysis" is definitely going beyond the role of a closer.

While it is true that an obstinate participant does not have the right to veto the rest, the rules of rejecting participants are not codified. They are probably not codifiable without creating more problems than addressed. Apart from rejecting some participants, the others must be capable of agreeing with with the consensus of the group, because the consensus is obvious and plain to see.

Agreeing that the group consensus differs from your opinion is difficult.

"According to defined rules" seems to be your approach of assume that perfection is found in the words of policy. You seem to overrate the significant of the current version of written policy. You seem to think that the answer to everything lies in policy, and are not concerned that the policy writters are biased and did not consider the current examples being discussed. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:48, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

On further thought, and reviewing usages, I think: "Evaluation" is appropriate/expected of a closer; "Analysis" is going too far. The closer evaluate the arguments, for relevance to the question; consistency with policy; personal bias; logical contradiction etc. The closer evaluates the discussion as a whole. "Evaluation" sounds about right.

"Analysis", however, sounds like the closer may be putting considerable personal input into the process, and thus is too going far. The meaning of the word varies with usage, but in formal usage it tends to mean much more than an evaluation of what is actually present. It suggests deconstruction of what was actually written, a study of underlying motivations, and heavy reference to material outside the discussion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:57, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

In reply to the (rhetorical I think) question asked, no. They mean different things.

In reply to the underlying question, What should we do when there is no consensus?, see discussion below under When can a new RM be initiated after a controversial RM is closed?. Andrewa (talk) 20:37, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

New version of {{RMassist}} adds permalinks to move edit summaries

See Template talk:RMassist for details. – Wbm1058 (talk) 13:05, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Straw poll: Moves involving dab pages

I found my last straw poll helpful for gauging how you expect RM administrators to behave, so I'm posing another question. Well, more like a scenario. A fairly common type of move involves an established WP:PRIMARYTOPIC that is judged to not be a good primary topic. I just moved Shade to Shade (shadow) (and Shade (disambiguation) to Shade), for example. Generally when I've done this in the past, I've gone through the incoming links to what has become the dab to fix them. But that can be really time consuming, and in the case of the Shade move, I let an uncontroversial RM sit around for a while because I wasn't ready to follow through on the incoming links. It occurred to me recently, especially considering the backlog, I should just tag those new dabs with {{dablinks}} {{incoming links}} and move on. So it this an efficient way of not trying to do everything myself, or is this a cop-out, a shortcut to avoid an appropriate workload? Should I fix the links or tag the page? Thanks for your input. --BDD (talk) 21:53, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

If you don't fix them, they will fall to the dab project where there are more bodies to follow up. Since the cleanup does generally not require an admin this seems like a reasonable compromise. When I was doing closes there more regularly, I would just default closes with a lot of cleanup to the DAB team. While some would argue that is not nice, sometimes the allocation of resources needs to be considered. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:00, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Gotta comment on that, because lately I'm getting dabbot notices like crazy because "someone" went and moved a whole bunch of articles from primary-topic titles to unnecessary disambigs....all without discussion, and all without fixing links on pages linked to the previous primary-topic title (and who would fight tooth and nail on an RM that tried to reverse his changes, but doesn't lift a finger even to amend ledes and doesn't care what the consequences to category and template names are); so many I won't bother listing them, but it does make me wonder given what you've said how many of those unresolved redirects can be determined to be the result of given, specific editors doing such things.....making work for others by chair-shuffling seems to be way too common a practice......Skookum1 (talk) 05:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Might as well be specific - Mi'kmaq and Coast Salish (among many others) were originally primary topics about those peoples; they are now disambig pages for non-primary usages because of the undiscussed blanket imposition of "FOO people" on ethno-group articles, and the contention that the names of the languages are as primary as the people whose language they are. Which is just not the case. Unless your only interest is linguistics, I suppose....if someone's so hot-to-trot to impose such sweeping unilateral changes but doesn't give as s**t about effects on the articles that link to them, it means other people (and DabSolver) have to pick up the slack....and it's getting tiresome to find these things all the time, and no sign at all from the perpetrator(s) about making any effort to clean up after themselves.Skookum1 (talk) 07:10, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

On behalf of the disambig project, please do not leave links unfixed with the idea that someone else will come along and clean up your mess. We have around 285,000 disambig links needing to be fixed right now, from over 63,000 disambiguation pages, and that number is now steadily going up. Furthermore, the people who argue for page moves should have a better idea of what's going on with those links than disambiguators who have not been party to that discussion. bd2412 T 21:54, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

@Skookum1: and @BD2412: – I hear you loud and clear, and really sympathize. Some of these zealots may need to be reigned in... the ones that haven't retired yet. Wbm1058 (talk) 16:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• This is a tough one that I have some experience with over at talk:Brand New. I opposed the move of the band off of primary topic, largely over concerns about fixing the links being, as you say, really time consuming. Admittedly, I know of no policy or guideline that takes into account allocation of scarce gnome-editor resources in deciding RM's so I don't expect that my argument was given much consideration. I was hoping that at least one of the zealots squealing about the band having "hijacked" the primary topic would help me fix the links, but other than some token effort by one, I didn't really get any help. However unlike wp:WikiProject Merge, which is at best treading water to keep from getting drowned by a years-long backlog, Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links is well-staffed and seems to do a reasonable job with keeping the problem in check. I couldn't really request a move review on Brand New as there was a numerical majority supporting the move, and determining whether the bar of "consensus", which I believe requires more than a simple majority, was crossed is a subjective call. Though in my opinion this was really close to the bar, the closing admin didn't violate the spirit of the instructions. I griped about this issue on their talk page, and that is the one single edit of my 13,000+ edits that I most regret. Just need to say how stressed I've been over Jenks24's near three-month absence from Wikipedia, and publicly hope, pray and beg for their return soon. OK, I've got that off my chest. I'm keeping my emotions over this issue bottled. BTW, Shade/Shade (shadow) are interesting because they don't involve some pop-culture phenomenon taking PT away from something of longer-term significance, which is where I think we more often run into this issue. Wbm1058 (talk) 13:54, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
• I would recommend tagging, on the talk page, some sort of {{Move cleanup needed}} tag. Apteva (talk) 21:24, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

• Question... I see we track articles that contain a lot of dab links... but do we track which dab pages are the targets of such links? If we are getting more links to dab pages than normal, I think it would be useful to see if there are specific dab pages that are causing the problem. Blueboar (talk) 18:49, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

  See the top 1000 disambiguation pages and Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links. Wbm1058 (talk) 16:29, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Yogurt Rule - delete?

Please see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Yogurt Rule for a discussion about whether to delete WP:Yogurt Rule, an essay that interprets WP:RMCI (among other policy/guideline pages). --B2C 21:04, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Several articles

List of Big Brother 1 housemates (UK) through to List of Big Brother 14 housemates (UK) to be moved to List of Big Brother 1 housemates through to List of Big Brother 14 housemates, where do I go to suggest they all be renamed? It seems pointless to have a delineator there and it not be needed. Even if it is a case of keeping the redirects.--Launchballer 10:39, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

That is done with a multi-move. The discussion is in one place and the bot puts a notice on all the other talk pages. Apteva (talk) 14:27, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Time Traveler (1980 video game)

Please move Time Traveller (video game) (wrong spelling with 2 LL's) to Time Traveler (1980 video game). Hippo99 (talk) 03:50, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

You need some sources to show the one L as both the links given in the article have two LL's. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 05:32, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The correct title is spelled with ONE L. (TraveLer) Hippo99 (talk) 05:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

References:

• note spelling in-game
• note spelling in the screenshot.

Done. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 05:57, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick fix. Hippo99 (talk) 06:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Cultural Center Historic District (Detroit, Michigan)

Can someone close talk:Cultural Center Historic District (Detroit, Michigan) ? This was an poorly merged move discussion, that left this section hanging, when the entire consolidated request was closed. This should have been closed at that time, but wasn't. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done Yes, I probably should've done that sooner. I misread the situation. --BDD (talk) 06:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

WP:SUBPAGE problem

Please see Wikipedia talk:Article Incubator/Artpop, where related articles edit histories were all moved into subpages of Artpop Special:PrefixIndex/Artpop (2013 Lady Gaga album) , but per WP:SUBPAGE, no subpages should exist in articlespace... now there are three, instead of none. It fails subpage disallowed uses point 3, since these are meant to be permanent reservoirs of edit history. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 00:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Bot error or my error?

I edited the entry at Talk:Ibiza Town#Requested move last night to relist it, by putting "relist" and my signature before the proposer's signature. However, the bot doesn't appear to have picked this up and it is still located near the bottom of the list on WP:RM. Thanks!  — Amakuru (talk) 18:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

The bot looks for the string "Relisted". Your edit used "Relisting". – Wbm1058 (talk) 15:38, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

OHO! I've fallen into that trap too! Now all is explained. Andrewa (talk) 00:33, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

When can a new RM be initiated after a controversial RM is closed?

The case that raised the question is 2013 Egyptian coup d'etat. A RM was closed at 15:11, 11 July 2013 [12] on the grounds that 1) it was a coup, 2) the sources use the term, which makes it a WP:POVTITLE, and 3) the proposed alternative was also POV. A new RM was opened on 22:12, 12 July 2013, suggesting a title that (the proposer reasonably believed) was NPOV. A new argument was raised at 01:34, 14 July 2013, that the title is a descriptive phrase and POVTITLE applies only to names.

At 20:50, 14 July 2013, the RM was speedy-closed, on the grounds that any new RM was disallowed for a substantial period -- a "couple of months" was mentioned -- after a previous RM had closed.

It seems to me that the right standard is to allow a new RM to be opened immediately, as long as either the grounds for closure do not apply because of the newly-proposed destination, or a plausible new argument is raised that would (if accepted) suffice to reverse the basis for closure; and that speedy closure is inappropriate if a significant new argument is presented in the new RM, even if it was not raised when the new RM was opened. But I haven't found any guidance in the guidelines.

For what it's worth, I'm not seeking to open a new RM for that page, at least for now, because I don't have an acceptable destination to propose (and for other reasons, but that one is sufficient). --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 04:53, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

You raise some good points/question. More precise guidelines are needed. My name is Mercy11 (talk) 13:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC), and I approve this message.

This probably comes down to a judgement call over whether the second proposed title Overthrow of Mohamed Morsi was adequately discussed and debated in the first RM, which is already buried in the second of three talk archives opened in a single month. What's with the 7-day auto-archiving there? That seems a bit excessive to me. The word overthrow is used several times, and Overthrow of Morsi a couple times, but the specific title Overthrow of Mohamed Morsi was never proposed in the first RM. Note in contrast the early closure at Talk:Boise State–Nevada football rivalry. Since the discussion of alternatives was short-circuited in that RM, I believe there would be sufficient grounds to open a new RM for an alternate title there. The Morsi situation is somewhat more muddled as to whether a new RM is merited, however. You might consider an appeal of that second close at WP:Move review and ask for it to be reopened. – Wbm1058 (talk) 16:03, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I sympathize... but I have to urge caution... the terms used to describe this event are both political and controversial, and the previous RM engendered strong emotions on both sides. Ask yourself whether people are really calm enough (yet) to step back and look at your new suggestion with objectivity. I am concerned that others have become so locked into their stated opinions that they are not ready to consider any alternatives... even good ones. You may find that if you wait a month or so, everyone will be more receptive to your suggestion. In short, you may be shooting yourself in the foot if you start a new RM so soon. Blueboar (talk) 17:55, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

We develop consensus through discussion. If there is no consensus, that suggests we need more discussion. If there is consensus and a decision, then a moratorium on discussion makes sense. But after a discussion is closed "no consensus"? Interested parties should not be prevented from discussing further, whether informally or as part of a new RM proposal. --B2C 21:48, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

No, interested parties should not (and cannot) be prevented from discussing further. But a new RM soon after a previous RM has been closed is unlikely to be helpful, especially if the closed RM involved extensive discussion. People understandably become weary of discussing the same subject over and over. We've seen this many times recently. Omnedon (talk) 14:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no reasonable argument against further discussion based on becoming weary of discussing anything - no one is forced or required to discuss anything. If one participates in a discussion to the point that they grow weary of it, they have no one to blame but themselves. At most, if one feels compelled to participate in every RM on a given title, they can make one short summary of their argument, or refer to someone else's !vote that did that. If someone is too weary to even do that, they might consider a Wiki break. But thanks for bringing our attention to another status quo stonewalling tactic... Wikipedia:Status quo stonewalling#Arguing against more discussion due to weariness. --B2C 21:16, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Does that mean that you think that raising an identical RM immediately after one is closed as no consensus is OK? That sounds very inefficient to me. It can work, but it would be far better to just not close the RM in the first place. The argument that others can just walk away is invalid, as admins are (collectively) responsible for processing all RMs listed in the Backlog section, so we're not quite as free to walk away as other contributors are, see my comments below (which preceded yours above, note).

If RM discussion is to be allowed to continue indefinitely without consensus (whether by not closing the RM or by allowing an endless succession to be raised) then I'd suggest we need a mechanism to remove these no-consensus RMs from the Backlog section without closing them... perhaps automatically if after two days (say) in the Backlog, no admin has been prepared to close as either move or no move. They could then stay (perhaps indefinitely) in a new no consensus section of WP:RM until one of the participants thinks there is enough of a consensus to relist. As I said, that can work. But we need to tweak the system a little if it's to work well. Andrewa (talk) 00:52, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think there should be no rule against opening an RM right after another is closed as "no consensus". But any such subsequent RM should be allowed to run its course, with no closing until at least a week of no discussion (or consensus is reached). If discussion has ceased for a week, I suggest closing as "no consensus" is unlikely to trigger another opening.

Also, in such a discussion what I called the WP:Yogurt Principle should be applied. That is, closers should be especially mindful in such a situation that they are determining community consensus about the title based on the arguments presented; that they are not determining consensus of the small sample of self-selected participants. Often in such cases there is no consensus among the participants, but there is a community consensus, because one side is supported by policy significantly better than the other. --B2C 16:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

While not wanting to comment on this particular case, I'd like to comment on some of the issues raised. In my (perhaps radical) opinion a new RM based on a previously rejected similar RM should only be raised (ever, no time period) if there is rough consensus on the article talk page to do so, and I'd back any admin who speedy-closed such an RM raised without supporting discussion on the talk page and a rough consensus there to take it back to RM. This is just based on practicalities, as observed by a fairly regular RM-clearer. It's pointless to take it to RM if you can't get consensus on the talk page, isn't it? And even more so if there has been a previous convoluted RM discussion, strongly suggesting that the new RM will be just as convoluted. Raising such pointless RMs wastes an enormous amount of admin time, and I really can't see what they achieve.

There is scope within the RM process for raising alternative names, and for relisting, and anyone can relist prior to closure. And if there are good alternative suggestions, relisting at the time these are made to allow a full discussion period for them is a good course. You don't need to wait until the RM falls into the "Backlog" and closure is imminent.

Yes, discussion is good. It should be directed at reaching consensus rather than disempowering the opposite view, and part of the incentive for this should be that RMs that have no chance of consensus (as demonstrated by a previous similar RM and no subsequent consensus to go back to RM) should just be speedily closed, to save everyone's time. This isn't policy AFAIK but should be.

Note I'm not saying that controversial RMs should not be raised once, or that convoluted RMs can be avoided. They are inevitable, and time well spent, and I'm happy to wade through them when the discussion period expires. It's just the reruns that I'd like to avoid. Andrewa (talk) 18:54, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

"... new RM based on a previously rejected similar RM should only be raised (ever, no time period) if there is rough consensus on the article talk page to do so".

Radical, indeed.

First, if there is a rough consensus on the talk page, arguably an RM is not even needed.

Second, often the only way to get reasonable discussion about a title is with an RM; without an RM it's sometimes difficult if not impossible to get any kind of reading on consensus.

Third, consensus can change and develop through discussion. Without RM, you are likely to not get the kind of discussion through which consensus changes.

Fourth, we're not even talking about cases where an RM had been rejected (your term) - we're talking cases where there was "no consensus" about an RM proposal. And, remember, what we're trying to determine is not whether there is consensus among the self-selected relatively small and insignificant sample participating, but whether there is community consensus regarding the title. The only way to do this is through the presentation of arguments evaluated based on how well they are based in policy. Again, often discussion prompted by an RM is needed to flesh all that out.

Finally, given the way closers often mistakenly evaluate WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, usually coupled with opposers' effective use of WP:Status quo stonewalling tactics, to conclude an RM discussion is "no consensus" simply because both sides are about equally supported in number, it often takes several RMs to establish that only one side is well supported in policy. This is the point of WP:Yogurt Principle. See also WP:Yogurt Title History for an extreme example of how repeated RMs are often needed to finally get to a decision that actually reflects community consensus. (NOTE: last three references to essays here are to essays for which I'm the primary author). --B2C 21:37, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

(Apologies if this stringing isn't quite right, it seems to be a bit confused below) I'll just say that I don't think you have addressed any of the points I made despite quoting one of them, and leave others to judge whether this is an accurate assessment.

Now, I will comment on one little quibble: The question of whether or not an RM has been rejected (my term) when it's closed without consensus and without a move doesn't concern me greatly, so I'll ask, what term would you prefer? Andrewa (talk) 02:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

A "no consensus" result is equivalent to when a jury deadlocks and is unable to produce a verdict. Referring to "no consensus" as "rejection" of a proposal sounds much more decisive than it is. I suggest deadlock or stalemate as being more accurate. --B2C 16:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

• See Wikipedia:Renominating_for_deletion, which is directed at a very similar question. Note that while B2C makes many justifiable statements, his approach is on the wrong side of WP:STICK, WP:DISRUPTION and WP:BAN. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:51, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

B2C, you continue to tout the yogurt situation as a positive example, and to throw around the word "consensus" in a way that's questionable. In any case, it's quite simple: if there is a discussion on a move request, and there is no consensus to move, then we don't move, and we don't need to go through the whole process again for a while. A freshly-opened RM on the heels of a closed RM is most likely going to be disruptive and not well-received by the community. Omnedon (talk) 01:13, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Let me raise an example of a situation where a new RM was appropriately held very soon after an old one closed... take a look at the various RMs at Talk:Deadmau5. In the first RM there was a consensus (but not a very large consensus) to move the page. However, this move resulted in a very vocal backlash. A lot of new editors spoke up who had not participated in the first RM... all objecting to the move and, more importantly, giving new policy based arguments for returning the page to the original title. It quickly became clear that, had all these editors participated in the original discussion, the result would have been very very different. Not quickly holding a second RM would actually have been more disruptive than holding it. Blueboar (talk) 03:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I've had a look at the archives... IMO my "radical" suggestion above would have handled this situation perfectly... a discussion on the talk page would have quickly resolved to raise a new RM, the new RM would link to that discussion, and any admin who thought of speedy closure would see that discussion. And in fact that appears to be exactly what happened, perhaps not quite as quickly. So what's the problem? Andrewa (talk) 15:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Again, it is highly unlikely that that kind of discussion will occur without the framework of a formal RM being in place to motivate people to participate. I may have seen such discussion occur without an RM maybe once or twice, but it's very rare. Here again WP:Yogurt Title History provides good examples. Between the eight RMs, there was some discussion, but it was always very relatively limited compared to what occurred during the actual RMs. Certainly a rough consensus was never achieved outside of an RM. --B2C 16:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me an excellent example of a waste of everyone's time, but I can't see any way that the yogurt/yoghurt discussion could support the wisdom of raising repeated RMs. It does however support a more general and possibly even more radical proposal of mine, which I call Andrew's Principle: If no consensus really is possible, then it doesn't matter which way we go.

The project here is to write an encyclopedia. It's not a debating club. Andrewa (talk) 20:29, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, in part. Some editors do spend a great deal of time debating and little time editing. But if we make a change in a situation where there is no consensus to do so, then that's worse than doing nothing. That's why some degree of inertia in the system is helpful. There needs to be good reason to move an article. Omnedon (talk) 20:33, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. And further, we don't want to discourage healthy discussion, and some editors are probably better at discussion than at working on articles, and we want to welcome them to the project too. But we also want to particularly encourage those who are working the coalface (remembering that the whole point of the project is the article or main namespace) to bring their experience there to the discussions, where it's a lot more valuable than any amount of theorising would be. It's a balancing act in some ways. Andrewa (talk) 20:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The yogurt title debacle demonstrates the problem with Andrew's principle - closers judging the consensus of the participants rather than the community consensus as reflected through policy and applied to the case in question. That is, people are too quick to assume " no consensus really is possible". Community consensus as reflected in policy was not only possible at Yogurt, it was clear in RM #1.

While self-selected participants often cannot achieve a consensus among each other, the application of policy is usually much more clear. That was the case at Yogurt from RM #1 (of 8), and demonstrated by the closer of RM #2. But the idea that there must be a "consensus of the participants" prevailed in RM #3, which reversed the sound finding in RM #2, and lead to #4, #5, #6, #7 and, finally, #8, where participants finally agreed with policy.

In fact, it was the insistence that it was silly to continue debating the issue that was largely responsible for prolonging it. People assumed "no consensus was possible", and so concluded debate was silly, and did not take the arguments seriously. Even when it was repeatedly shown that moving the article as proposed would result in a title with an unassailable basis in policy (what we have now with it at Yogurt), it was largely dismissed.

To be clear, your principle is sound in theory, but is likely to fail in practice because of premature findings of "no consensus" based on !vote counting rather than argument analysis. --B2C 20:55, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I interpret this data differently. What (in hindsight) was clear right from RM #1 was that no meaningful consensus could be achieved. Some appearance of consensus was eventually achieved through a process of attrition, which is likely to have discouraged some valuable editors, and achieved absolutely nothing. Andrewa (talk) 21:05, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and similar interpretations are at the root of many problematic "no consensus" results that are actually supported by community consensus as reflected in policy.

Attrition? What evidence do you have of that? Especially since RM #8 had almost 50 participants, perhaps a record. Besides, you are again concerned with WP:LOCALCONSENSUS rather than community consensus as reflected in policy.

You deny that the Yogurt is unassailable in terms of policy-based argument and that hindsight was not necessary to see this before the article was moved? --B2C 21:45, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

B2C has a poor appreciation of WP:Consensus and others would be well advised to not trust his interpretations if it. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

See my personal interpretation at User:Andrewa/creed: I believe in consensus. I don't know what it means either, but I'll try to make it work anyway. Andrewa (talk) 00:29, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't deny that the Yogurt is unassailable in terms of policy-based argument. I haven't commented either way and don't intend to. But I do claim that this was a lose/lose result, and that it would be good to avoid processes such as this.

Nor am I concerned only with local consensus. I have no idea what gave you that idea.

There is much concern about retaining editors. We do from time to time get sniping from outside of Wikipedia claiming that Wikipedia is inaccurate, but even these skeptics (who presumably are too old to have learned critical reading at primary school, if they are from my area) rarely if ever criticise our article titles, and nor should they. The article title is merely a handle. We try very hard not to say that just because we spell or style an article title in a particular way, that everyone therefore should, and we have non-judgemental redirects from other spellings.

But we do still have endless and vigorous debates about which title is correct. Whether these are just in terms of policy (which does include WP:IAR remember) or include other evidence, they don't do a lot to improve Wikipedia. If we could somehow curb these, it would be a big step towards retaining editors, in my opinion. Andrewa (talk) 00:22, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, we see and seek to solve the same problem: needless bickering about titles. You seem to advocate "walk away". I don't believe advocating "walk away" is a practical or effective solution to this problem because we'll never get everyone to walk away, and it only takes very few to continue a conflict, sometimes only two.

So, I seek something else: policy-based resolution to such conflicts. There are two main prongs to this approach:

1. Doing better at recognizing when one side in such conflicts is clearly supported better by policy than the other, and changing titles accordingly, even if there is no consensus of the small self-selected sample of contributors that happen to be participating in the discussion. We can do this as participants in RM discussions (e.g., my contribution to Talk:DNS today[13], or as RM discussion closers (e.g., Tariq's close of that discussion [14]).
2. Improving title policy through an evolving process that gives ambiguous guidance as to what the title should be in fewer and fewer cases. For example, my attempt to clarify the meaning of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC today[15].

I believe that this is the only practical and effective way to greatly reduce the amount of bickering about titles. So, you will see my commitment to this approach in every edit that has to do with titles, whether it's about a specific title on an article talk page, an edit to a policy page, or discussion about such edits. I'm constantly trying to improve with respect to either #1, #2, or both. Will you join me? --B2C 01:50, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Template:Disputed title

In the alternate universe of Dispute templates there is a somewhat obscure one regarding titles, which tags articles themselves rather than their talk pages. Currently it's transcluded on just five pages:

• Aghstafa River (January 2009)
• Alexandrian pogrom (February 2013)
• Pogroms of 1096 (February 2013)
• End of Communism in Hungary (1989) (June 2013)
• Interstate 88 (east) (July 2013)

These seem like they should use requested moves to resolve their "disputed titles". Rather, they bypass the normal procedure for (potentially) controversial or disputed title moves by using WP:RfC or other discussion alternatives. Is there any good reason for them to bypass WP:RM? Should the requested moves procedure document {{Disputed title}} as an optionally used template for providing article notification of requested moves? Wbm1058 (talk) 17:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

How can I get outsiders' opinions?

It has been requested that the article about Mathilde of Belgium be moved to Queen Mathilde of Belgium despite the fact that the article about her husband is titled Philippe of Belgium rather than King Philippe of Belgium. Such discrepancy can only make sense to Wikipedia editors who have edited royalty-related articles for years. Ordinary readers, for whom articles are written, can only be confused and misled by such a practice. Usually people seek the opinion of those interested in the subject but in this case I believe it would be beneficial to get opinions of "outsiders", users who do not edit articles about royals. How (or where) can I "advertise" the discussion to get opinion of such users? Surtsicna (talk) 21:49, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Note this RM is already advertised at Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility – perhaps what you would call an "insiders" noticeboard. In theory, WP:RM, where it is also already advertised, is a more general noticeboard, which is watched by many editors with a general interest in page naming conventions and page moves. That should be sufficient, and interested "experts" are usually best at making page naming decisions. However, if you still want to solicit more uninvolved editors, you could try a request for comment, as I discussed in the previous section, there is a small "alternate universe" of page move discussions using that venue. An RfC about a page move should just link to a requested move discussion, in my opinion, and not a to a fork of such a discussion. Wbm1058 (talk) 01:21, 22 July 2013 (UTC)