Talk:O Canada

GAN on hold

(Version reviewed)

Completed items

• Can you please move all free images/sound to Commons
• "The first lyrics that were composed for the song" - rmv that were
• Is the one ref in the lead needed?
• Also, expand 2nd paragraph?
• Ref 3 publisher needs italics, check others
• "most Canadians were surprised to learn that it did not already have such status." this sentence needs a specific ref
• "and all kinds of versions were submitted." - bah..."multiple versions"?...all kinds is just non-professional...
• "based on Alfred, Lord Tennyson'" - fix punctuation here based on actual article title (here)—reads awkwardly at the moment
• "Two provinces have adopted..." - rmv spaces around em dashes in this paragraph
• Merge short paragraphs in Performances section

---

• Any more referencing would be good...

Leave me a note when done. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 11:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

This GAN has passed, and this is now a good article! If you found this review helpful, please consider helping out a fellow editor by reviewing another good article nomination. Help and advice on how to do so is available at Wikipedia:Reviewing good articles, and you can ask for the help of a GAN mentor, if you wish.

Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 23:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Complete French Lyrics

This is a bit of a request, but clearly there are some extended French lyrics missing, as evidenced by the 1918 clip. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.68.171 (talk) 00:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

• The complete French lyrics are at fr:Ô Canada. DoubleBlue (Talk) 01:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Native Land

Just wondering, but why does it say "Our home and native land" when it isn't actually the native land for any canadians bar the Yupiks, Inuits, and Aleuts. 03:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC) Just a note that we have far more indigenous people than Inuits, Metis, Stolo, Haida, Mikmaq, Cree, Iroquois (Canada isn't Alaska...)...... and I agree with the commentator below. It has many meanings, and I'm fine with the various variations of the line. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.82.249.99 (talk) 21:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps because "native" has more than one meaning? See [1] for twenty-four options, some more relevant than others. fishhead64 (talk) 03:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Native can refer to the land you are born in, instead of the land of your forefathers. For many who sing it is not their native land but is their home, and for Canadians abroad or who renounce citizenship they may still sing it as respect for their native land, but not their home. I would personally rather see "home or native land". Home and/or would be more accurate but I don't know how to incorporate 'and/or' into song. To be honest, I think is a minor issue in regards to controversial lyrics in the song. I take more issue with 'god keep our land' and 'true patriot love' and 'in all our sons command' and 'true north' and 'we stand on guard for thee'. A lot of these things infer things about Canadians, or have them singing about things they don't actually do. The french version is much less problematic in this way, the only problem is a minor thing about 'cross-bearing' really relating to Christianity subtly, but 'bear a cross' is also a general expression regardless of origins so I don't care so much. Tyciol (talk) 06:59, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

It is a typo ... it should be ... Our home on native's land! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.128.56.52 (talk) 23:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

From Wiktionary: "Native. 1) Belonging to one by birth. eg. 'This is my native land.'" Anyone born in Canada as a citizen is a native Canadian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.247.195 (talk) 01:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

To play the devil's advocate, no one is indigenous to Canada on a long enough time frame. Even the First Nations and Inuit migrated here. They were just here first. I don't think "native land" means you have always been here. Because, really, few peoples anywhere would qualify on a geologic time scale. Where you are born or live is your home by definition. Where you were born is your native land, again, by definition. I understand and appreciate the political argument being made, but this is a matter of semantics.204.65.34.232 (talk) 16:37, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Nunavut translation

Could someone go about translating "Inuktitut lyrics"? Obviously it is difference because Nunavut appears in there and I'm betting it says different stuff. Since the french is translated I think it would be valuable to have this new version too. Tyciol (talk) 07:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Just a note here... 'nunavut' simply means 'our land' in Inuktituk. So far as I know, this version is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hevato (talk • contribs) 17:53, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The Inuktitut version still clearly has different lyrics as none of the lines repeat as the last two lines do in the English and French versions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.87.170.72 (talk) 08:21, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Playing at NHL games

I took out "along with games that involve teams in the United States that are located near Canada" where it talks about playing the anthem at NHL games. I couldn't see anything that said this in the referenced article, and I've never heard of it. If I'm wrong, put it back in, but could you show a reference that says so? Thanks. (Priester -- not signed in) 192.104.67.122 (talk) 15:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

It is true that the Buffalo Sabres play "O Canada" before "The Star Spangled Banner" at every home game, even if there are no Canadian-based teams involved, because they have so many Canadian season-ticket holders. However, I'm not about to put forth the effort to find an article to reference it to and, frankly, I don't think it's significant enough to bother mentioning it in this article.Djob (talk) 07:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Historical refrain

I was watching the 1979 Wales Conference Finals Game 7, between the Montreal Canadiens and Boston Bruins at the Forum. The article states that historical refrain is this:

O Canada, glorious and free,

We stand on guard, we stand on guard for thee!

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

Roger Doucet, however, sings these lyrics before the game:

O Canada, glorious and free,

We stand on guard for right and liberty.

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee!

Was this version more common and does it merit inclusion in the article? Video is available here [2] --Pgp688 (talk) 06:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Doucet must have been making it up. No such version.77Mike77 (talk) 04:01, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Formatting of lyrics

I don't see any compelling need to format the lyrics differently, and using inline style elements. I propose removing the inline formatting. Isaac Lin (talk) 17:07, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

It's done on other articles (see The Star-Spangled Banner (though it now has an unfortunate mix of fonts)); it makes the lyrics easier to read, highlighting them from the surrounding prose text. I'm not yet finished giving the article a go-over, and will get the other, old lyrics in the same font as soon as possible. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:09, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I do not believe any additional highlighting of the lyrics is required as the surrounding white space is more than sufficient. The use of a serif font amid the sans-serif text is jarring. Isaac Lin (talk) 17:14, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Jarring sounds a little strong. Regardless, guidelines seem to call for quotations to be made recognisable as such in some manner, but advises neither for nor against the use of font to do so. I can ask at WP:WPMU and WP:LYRICS. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 17:24, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

In addition to concerns with good typesetting practices, using inline styles can pose accessibility issues for those who are attempting to use their own custom stylesheets. See Wikipedia's general guidance on formatting issues for a bit of additional discussion about avoiding custom formatting. Isaac Lin (talk) 17:39, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

No responses so far to your inquiries. I propose that no special inline styles be used to format the lyrics, and that no special formatting be applied, to avoid accessibility issues and following Wikipedia's general guidance on formatting. Isaac Lin (talk) 16:00, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Any further comments from anyone on this proposal? Isaac Lin (talk) 04:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree 100 percent it makes it harder to read...But other articles do it...I guess old browsers use the old default bigger font for this text face ...Moxy (talk) 04:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your co-operation! Isaac Lin (talk) 01:53, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Oops, sorry; I forgot to comment here after removing the formatting. It turned out that most articles containing song lyrics didn't use a different font for them. Given that and the statements above, it seemed logical to undo the formatting here. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 23:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

German Immigrant Version

A historic German language version is known to have existed as can be seen at http://www.mhsbc.com/news/v11n02/v11n01p15.htm

The lyrics are a rather close translation of the English original.

O Canada

O Canada, mein Heim und Vaterland Wie gluecklich der, dem hier die Wiege stand! Das Herz erglueht, wenn wir dich seh’n Du Nordland, stark und frei, Wir halten Wacht, O Canada Wir halten Wacht dir treu. O Canada, O Canada, O Canada, Wir halten Wacht dir treu.

It seems to have been in use by German Mennonites which came by the hundreds of thousands to Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.88.122.182 (talk) 17:41, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

German-speaking Mennonites. These appear to be from Russian Mennonites. There's no indication of "use by" the groups but rather one hand-written copy found in one the belongings of one member of one boatload of refugees/immigrants. Having grown-up in a group of Russian Mennonites, we never sang O Canada in German. This may have been different in the 40s. One further thing, Mennonites, particularly Mennonite Brethren, have very little allegiance to the states of which they are citizens. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Russian Mennonites were Russian Empire citizens of German ethnicity, conserving and actively speaking their German language at least within the family and the community for generations and also upon arrival from Russia on Canadian shores. I will not doubt there were groups of russified Mennonites speaking Russian who eventually even might have written their own version of the Canadian anthem. There have been Germans on Canadian soil for generations at different times from the beginning to today, in history many of them in the services of the British monarchy fighting the Americans, as volunteers as well as pressed into service and sold to Britain by their German dukes. Not all of them were Mennonites. As there is such a version og the national anthem written in the German language, I strongly doubt that it was written just for translation rehearsal purposes among some groups of people who generally were very much down-to-earth, not highly educated but loyal out of gratitude towards the ones who gave them a safe asylum. I do not doubt that there were groups of Mennonites who never sang 'Oh Canada' in German but it does not exclude the possibility of groups of ethnic German Mennonites who stuck with their ethnic language translating and singing that hymn in German. This would be an interesting topic for scholars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.88.122.182 (talk) 21:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

All that this proves is that one person, for some unknown reason, translated the song into German. There's no indication that it was sung. It certainly was not in a hymnal so cannot be presumed to be a hymn. There's nothing of interest in a single, hand-written copy of some lyrics. For all we know, it was an exercise in translation, or a request from a non-English-speaking member of the community to understand what was being sung. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:48, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

It would be of interest to the Wikipedia community to get to know what you, obviously speaking on behalf of "the Russian Mennonites" in Canada, have to add to this discussion about the cultural achievements concerning Russian Mennonites (i.e. Russian speaking or ethnic Russian Mennonites) in Canada in their relationship to Canadian citizenship. Judging from your own growing up within an illoyal cult community within Canada does not mean you have bought the rights to speak for all the other Mennonites of German descent in Canada.

"There's nothing of interest in a single, hand-written copy of some lyrics" ... If this is true, you as well can use your oriental bible as toilet paper as too much of it bases on single hand written scripts where the authenticity, authorship and validity cannot be proven at all.

"For all we know, it was an exercise in translation, or a request from a non-English-speaking member of the community to understand what was being sung." Who is 'we'? And what makes you so sure about the two conclusions? The second one would suggest the anthem has been sung in German at some time within Canada... I just suggested solutions; you state your ideas as proven truth. Something went dead wrong there.

I suggest we leave this topic to real scholars then, my ridiculous internationally acknowledged MA title seems not sufficient for this discussion with a professor of an exotic cult. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.88.122.182 (talk) 22:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I find your tone insulting, and that comes from someone who has been warned about the tone of his edits. I don't speak for all Russian Mennonites in Canada any more than you speak for all Internet users in Berlin or all MA holders with an attitude. Your parallel to manuscript fragments of scripture at best laughable. The fact that one copy of a book of the bible is found in a cave is meaningful since there are so many other fragments and fully extant copies. Your reference is merely a single copy of a German translation. That's all. I won't comment on the use of your MA, but I will suggest you look at WP:OR. I'll also suggest that you understand that talk pages are not forums. This isn't really the place to request scholarly work be performed on a document. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

And please stop slandering Mennonites as an "illoyal cult". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

'illoyal cults' are the ones which do not fully and loyally stand behind the constitution and the people of the country they live in. You just mentioned this yourself, written above. I do not have to agree with you as you are not the only one permitted to write the Wikipedia. I will not bother replying to the other slightly amusing remarks you made. Feel free to use your personal world view mennonite Wikipedia pages furtheron as your personal playgrounds then, Herr Prof. div.gratiae Goerlitz. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.88.122.182 (talk) 00:27, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

That does not describe the Mennonites, Russian or otherwise. I am not claiming ownership of Wikipedia. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:17, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I wonder where in the article the anon feels it would be appropriate to mention the existence of this singular translation. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 23:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:17, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Links to geographic areas

Just to clarify my earlier edits: general Wikipedia consensus is for a reference to a city+larger geographical setting to only link to the city (of course, only when making the city a link is appropriate), with the reader able to navigate upwards from the city's article. Regarding my removal of the province, since Toronto is a relatively well-known international city, I don't believe a reference to the province is necessary, just as I don't believe the reference to Montreal needs to have any qualification added. I also think Ottawa is sufficiently well-known as the nation's capital. Isaac Lin (talk) 01:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, a good point Isaac. The high-value links in this article are somewhat diluted by the density of blue. Tony (talk) 15:37, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Sound clip of national anthem

Is there any reason we can't have a superb modern performance of the anthem rather than that crappy 1915 performance, which appears to have no historical notability? It makes the piece sound dreadful. A modern performance is awaiting promotion to featured sound status, but cannot be passed unless it is included in an article. Tony (talk) 15:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

You mean can we have a crappy American performance of the anthem rather than a neutral 1915 performance of the anthem? How about I get the Simon Fraser University Pipe Band version of the American Anthem and see who that annoys? It's a nationalism issue. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Given the size of the article, I see no issues with having both recordings. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:06, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that's an excellent solution. Thanks. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

No problem. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:39, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes in the gallery is fine - Is there a date for this new version this is kind of a requirement for GA articles (that is proper info for sounds).Moxy (talk) 23:26, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

According to http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20030504023804/http://www.navyband.navy.mil/anthems/national_anthems.htm the oldest date of the recording is approximately 2003. I had OTRS permission since 2006/2007 for these recordings. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:57, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Leaving personalities aside, I believe the United States Navy band version is a better performance and recording than the 1915 recording, and so support its use in the infobox. isaacl (talk) 03:18, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I completely disagree. I will say the recording quality is better, but it takes liberties with the melody adding harmonies into song that are not official. Also, it's only a single verse long while the anthem, and the recording is three verses long. Finally, the drums are personally repulsive. It makes it feel like a Sousa march or military processional and Canada is not as militaristic as the United States is, and hopefully never will be. Couple these faults with the nationalistic bent and proud sense of heritage and you have solid reasons for not making the navy band version the lead version of the hymn. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:37, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The dynamics in the 1915 recording are unusual—a large jump in volume in the second verse, a bit lower at the start of the third, and then fading out at the end. (Technically speaking, the official lyrics are only one verse.) The softer instruments are somewhat muffled, and so some of their detail is lost. I'm not sure if you mean to say the Navy band version does not follow the melody line in places; I did not detect this. I'm not sure what nationalistic bent and proud sense of heritage you are attributing to the 1915 recording; I think the Victor Military Band was an in-house band for the Victor record company in New Jersey. In any case, though I'm not highly opinionated about which recording to link to in the infobox, I think the quality of the recording should be given greater weight than the origin of the recording. isaacl (talk) 04:23, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I would argue that the oldest version - preferable by a Canadian version - should be seen first. Do we have an older version then 1915/16??. Much more interesting to hear an old version (historical in nature) then some random version from the 2000s (that we could find thousands of including some from Canada). So i would say historical value over quality of sound is more inline with an encyclopedias content. In fact how does this new USA clip even merit a FA class - i see no historical reference and no ones even sure when it was made - its only attribute is sound quality. Moxy (talk) 19:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

If the version was notable for a specific reason, then I might agree. However I see no particular historical reason to prefer a random version from a 78 rpm record over a random version from the 2000s in the infobox. In the list of different performances, I agree that having the oldest available version that Wikipedia editors can find helps illustrate how the anthem has been performed over the years. The list of performances allows the article to satisfy both historical interest and to contain a high-quality representation of the anthem; we do not have to choose one or the other. isaacl (talk) 19:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

When I wrote "takes liberties with the melody adding harmonies" I meant just that. They have changed the chords of the actual song. The "lead line" is not changed. Out of curiosity, do you have any musical training? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe that having a different orchestration from the original is an issue. For example, the 1915 version contains trills and grace notes; I don't know if the original arrangement had those, but if not, I wouldn't object to linking to the Victor Military Band version on that basis. Different arrangements can suit different sets of instruments. isaacl (talk) 20:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

But the chords are different on occasion. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

That's not unusual for someone creating a new arrangement of a piece; the arrangement for a recording where the brass will predominate can favour different accompaniment lines than the arrangement for a full orchestra, where a wider variety of instruments will take the spotlight. isaacl (talk) 20:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Which is why the bagpipe version for the American anthem (in E flat) would be a great addition to the Ameircan page. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Not sure how adding performances of different arrangements to the list of performances of an anthem relates to the question of the relative merit of the quality of the recording linked to in the infobox. But certainly a few different arrangements of a given national anthem from different periods and possibly different styles may be of historical interest (of course, subject to the consensus reached by interested editors on what set of recordings is sufficiently notable). isaacl (talk) 23:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

When you hear one arrangement all your life and then a military band from another country plays a very different arrangement, literally changing the chord structure of the music, it is offensive. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:25, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

If you want to get an alternative version then a bilingual, public domain version is available at http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/symbl/MP3/O-Canada-bil.MP3. I would add it myself but I can't get it from .mp3 to a supported file. if anyone can then that would probably be the best version to have. Oddbodz (talk) 21:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I have no found out how to do this and the file is up. I have put the disputed version in the listen section. Hope the biligual version is ok. Oddbodz (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

i put up the navy band anthem on canada's info box and it was changed back to the 1915 version by user:Walter Görlitz he clearly is vandalizing an arcticle for personal preference as he said '"because 1) it's American and 2) it's not the right harmonies thee navy band should be put back up whe have more than one person wanting it up. philpm930Philpm930 (talk) 02:22, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

No clear vandalizing. I have given my clear reasons in both locations. Shall I present them again? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Let's look at what happened.

1. You added the sound file that you know offends Canadians. A nice bold edit.
2. Another editor removed it in under two minutes.
3. Some time later another editor restored it: I see no reason why this doesn't belong.
4. I offered two reasons why it doesn't belong and removed it.
5. Recognizing that the editor might have wanted a sound file, I added the one that has gained consensus here.
6. The debate then reopened at Talk:Canada#Add Audio For Oh Canada and no one likes the file that you added. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

well at least there's an anthem box now :) can someone please give me a reason why people don't want to have a sound box up on the main page? I think every country needs one, just like there flag and coat of arms on wiki. philpm930Philpm930 (talk) 18:02, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Bilingual version

I do believe some of the commonly-heard bilingual versions of O Canada (that is, ones that switch between English and French lyrics) may be notable enough to include in this article, but am unsure of the right criteria to use to determine their notability. Any suggestions? isaacl (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Use http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/symbl/MP3/O-Canada-bil.MP3 ? User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:52, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I forgot that this is currently discussed in the performances section. Any opinions if examples of full lyrics should be shown in this article, or if the discussion in this section is sufficient? Also, I suggest that if the lyrics are shown, they be placed in a different section than the official lyrics, since the bilingual version is not official. isaacl (talk) 21:02, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I feel the version is notable enough to go in the article because it was the version than Nicki Yanofsky sang at the opening ceremony for the Vancouver 2010 Olympics which the whole world saw and it is also listed on the PCH website with the other 3 versions. Oddbodz (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Date Format

This article began 2001-NOV-01 with mdy format. This 2011-APR-03 edit changed the date format without prior discussion. Per retain, I will be restoring mdy format. The only date format with any claim to being having strong national ties to Canada is YMD (the same format that appears at the bottom of every article page & every talk page, even though it is not included in the MOS) --JimWae (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

On a side note, I assume the format for the date at the bottom of the page is determined by the setting under "My preferences", since for me, it appears in DMY format. isaacl (talk) 22:52, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually Canada has no official WP:STRONGNAT date format and either format can be used, but the format in use after the article is no longer a stub should be kept. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Rules and Laws copyright violation

I'm not sure how to explain this accurately in the deletion comments, but the whole section is a copyright violation from the Government of Canada website. Am I wrong? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:13, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I think gov't publications are granted free-use license public domain. It's still a copy & paste, tho'.--JimWae (talk) 22:17, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

The web site claims copyright, but provides a license for non-commercial reproduction (with attribution conditions). isaacl (talk) 23:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

So, the National Anthem Act specifies the melody. There's no act specifying the lyrics? No action by the gov't need be taken to change the embarrassingly exclusionary lyrics? Groups can decide for themselves to sing a more inclusionary lyrics?--JimWae (talk) 22:40, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

There are no laws governing how "O Canada" is performed, and copyright law on performances does not apply, so groups can sing whatever lyrics they want. Also, since the anthem is in the pubilc domain, anyone can create and publish any derived works, changing the lyrics or melody as they wish. isaacl (talk) 22:59, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I see the source says the Act specifies O Canada to be the national anthem. I do not see the source saying any act specifies the lyrics. I do see "official lyrics" mentioned, but not which act actually specifies them, though one might presume it to be the same act. --JimWae (talk) 23:10, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

See the National Anthem Act. isaacl (talk) 23:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the link --JimWae (talk) 00:11, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Media farm

Ok so lets talk about what all the media is about --this is not a media farm for listing ever version we have (thats y we have wikicomons). What version should we keep - i see a few that could be dumped. We should be taking about the ones listed not simply listing every one we have with no mention of there context. So i suggest we mention 3 or 4 of them in the body of the text an keep those one - wheil dumping thoses we can (or) dont realy know about. Moxy (talk) 22:58, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

My personal view on the order of priority for including recordings is the following:

• High quality instrumental version, so those unfamiliar with the anthem can learn to recognize it.
• Versions of historical or cultural interest; the version played on the carillon bells is an example.
• High quality versions with vocals; English, French, and both

The recordings from the Canadian Heritage site are good choices to meet the first need, and, if deemed necessary, the third need. isaacl (talk) 23:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

But the recordings by Canadian Heritage are under Crown Copyright, so we cannot really use those. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 23:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Are they CR o well - do we have more info on other versions so we can write about them in the text - this way we actually mention them in the body of the article giving credit were credit is due etc...Moxy (talk)

A license for non-commercial reproduction is provided, with attribution conditions. isaacl (talk) 23:31, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: the copyright notice states "personal or public non-commercial use". Wikipedia is deemed a commercial use because it may be mirrored or forked for commercial purposes. Unless media from government sources is public domain or licenced for any use, it cannot be used on WP. Mindmatrix 23:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok then i guess we should be actively requesting them for deletion?Moxy (talk) 23:53, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

If anyone is looking for a specific guideline, see WP:FAIRUSE and its explanation on commercial licensing. Guess the newly-added recordings will have to go out. isaacl (talk) 23:54, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

well i guess this solves the clutter problem Moxy (talk) 00:08, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I like Moxy's idea where we can cite the bi-lingual version to the mp3, but not upload the mp3 to here. We can always have a 30 second clip of it too. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:13, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Lyrics

Honestly, I want to limit the article to the two official languages of Canada. Other languages could be added, but I think it would be best to add them at Wikisource. However, if you decide to keep the Inuktitut language, use http://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/k12/cur/socstud/foundation_gr1/blms/1-2-2c.pdf as a source. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:18, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Would be hard to include all the Official languages used across Northern Canada i think - there is a few of them ...Canadians#Languages .Moxy (talk) 04:45, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

So that is why I wanted to include only the official national languages; we can have translations at Wikisource and make a mention in the text saying official translations are present in x, y, and z. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 05:23, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree: official languages, French & English, only. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:13, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we have the official lyrics section which contains English and French and then a recognized lyrics section for Inuktitut and any other native languages. The bilingual version could go in either but I think it should stay in the official section because it is on the Canadian Herritage (PCH) website along with English and French. Oddbodz (talk) 10:38, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I think the bilingual lyrics should get their own section. I am still not sure about the native languages, but given the size of this article, it will be pretty much nearly half are going to be lyrics. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 12:26, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

As I stated above, since the bilingual version is not official, I believe the lyrics should be moved to the Performances section. isaacl (talk) 15:22, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Song title

My apologies for my edit to the song title in the infobox; there was no intent to vandalize. Since the page for the sound in Wikimedia commons did not list an explicit title, and the sound was placed in the public domain, I felt that shortening the title would avoid an unduly distracting title in the infobox. isaacl (talk) 22:31, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

No, I apologise for my odd form of Wiki-dyslexia, which causes me to see diffs backwards! I thought you'd added the extra text, not deleted it. Your edit was right; the title of the song is "O Canada", not "O Canada on a Piano". --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:36, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Performances

I added the notation about "O Canada" being performed at Watkins Glen International and New Hampshire Motor Speedway. This information is from personal experience. I have been to NASCAR races at both tracks and the Canadian National Anthem was performed before the "Star Spangled Banner" at both tracks. I asked a NASCAR official about this and was told that it was a requirement due to the proximity of Canada and out of respect and appreceation of the Canadian participants and fans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.238.131.166 (talk) 03:16, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. We need a reference. Proof that those are the only two races where it's done and also for the reasons stated. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:41, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I also added the notation that for the race in Montreal at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, the notation that "O Canada" is performed after the "Star Spangled Banner" I cannot give a proper reference, however, as it was a television broadcast; however, the manner to which it is done is the same as a a US pro team playing in Canada.DelandSIV (talk) 20:25, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Try http://www.google.com/search?q=Canadian+anthem+site:nascar.com&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=o0S&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&ei=969aTs_bD-WssQK8urHBDA&start=20&sa=N&biw=1024&bih=602 User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 21:16, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

4 Verses

Can someone include all four verses of O Canada, instead of just the first one?

99.234.60.11 (talk) 03:17, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

There are only four official verses in French. I don't know if there are four official verses in English. See http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/symbl/anthem-eng.cfm --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Proposal to remove the lyrics per WP:NOT#LYRICS

It seems that the lyrics shouldn't be added to the article but rather included at Wikisource. This might also avoid some of the vandalism that occurs here. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:29, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. That defeats most of the purpose of this article. Also if you look at the page on the Star Spangled Banner you will see the lyrics of it including pre-civil war versions. Canada is fortunate to have a national anthem that when sung simultaneously in different languages is uniquely beautiful. This isn't something that needs to be hidden under a rock. Zen-in (talk) 16:25, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

The purpose of the article is to inform about the song, not provide the lyrics. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:43, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

The lyrics are the core feature of the song and also show the evolution of things? What would be the benefit to our readers to remove the info - why would we make them look somewhere else? We are here to inform our readers not to prevent vandalism. Anyways it would be odd if this article did not have them like other articles on anthems - It is the norm see List of national anthems.Moxy (talk) 03:20, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

When I wrote articles about national anthems for featured article, lyrics must be included. However, what Wikisource can do is where we put all historical versions, multiple versions, translations, etc. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:23, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

We're talking about how this article is breaking a policy: WP:NOT#LYRICS, and the only argument against it is inconvenience of readers of the article. Seems like including the policy in the heading wasn't obvious. And arguments based on other articles that break the policy are simple: after we remove them from this article we can remove other offending articles. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:32, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

From WP:NPS: "If out of copyright, shorter texts - such as short speeches (the Gettysburg Address), short poems ("Ozymandias"), and short songs (most national anthems) - are usually included in their article." --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 04:38, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you M. We now have a guideline saying it could be OK going against a policy saying that it's not OK. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:11, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I have a wider interpretation of the policy, especially in light of the guideline the policy itself directs its readers to for additional information. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 05:19, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Wonderful. So now we have someone who thinks they're above guidelines and policies who has "wider interpretation". You're kidding right? THis is a lame justification for inclusion. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Common sense would dictate we have "LYRICS" for anthems (and is why GA and FA articles have them- not a hard one at all to conclude.Moxy (talk) 06:07, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Common sense would dictate we follow policies such as WP:NOT#LYRICS, or would you rather have anarchy? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:46, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Best to ask for more input - as all here seem to think inclusion is warranted but yourself. O Canada is not copyrighted nor is the lyrics an unreasonable length. Common sense dictates we do whats best for our readers not blindly follow a policy. Are we to remove the lyrics from all the articles or just this one? If just this one why not the others? Do we remove the lyrics from all the GA and FA article because you found WP:NOT#LYRICS and interrupt it to mean "NO LYRICS" despite it not saying this? Should we remove the "LYRICS" it from the Lord's Prayer aswell? Moxy (talk) 07:44, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

We're not talking about other articles, we're talking about this article and a specific policy. Also, the Lord's Prayer was not originally a song. You could add many other things that are not songs that we later set to music and call them songs, but their original purpose was not to be a lyric. I am currently in the process of applying WP:MOSFLAG to a specific situation: soccer rosters. The same argument was made to restore a format that doesn't correctly follow the policy. In fact, there were other, better arguments than this. We don't break a policy in one place just because it's being broken in others. We fix it in one place and then apply it to the others as well. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:30, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok lets be clear about this as the policy does not say "NO LYRICS" anywhere - in fact for anthems we do add the LYRICS - Pls read Wikipedia:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources - If out of copyright, shorter texts - such as short speeches (the Gettysburg Address), short poems ("Ozymandias"), and short songs (most national anthems) - are usually included in their article.Moxy (talk) 15:00, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

That was already mentioned and dismissed. Guidelines are below policies. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:31, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Dismissed by who? Your policy you point to does not say "NO LYRICS" in fact it says "Quotations from a song should be kept to a reasonable length" - The guidelines on the other hand your dismissing clearly mentions national anthems specifically and inclusion of lyrics if not copyrighted or to long. What is the real motivation for the removing the info? Is this all based on your interpretation of the policy?15:40, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

By whom. By me, above. Feel free to read it. Now that you point-out the clear mention of national anthems I see that it appears covered. Just clarifying with the policy. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:27, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I realy do like the debates we have from time to time (I happen to like this aspect of WIKI). Do you think we should change the policy page to reflect the guideline? We could bring up this discrepancy on the policy talk page. As I 2 was not sure about all this till I looked into it deeper.Moxy (talk) 20:36, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

"Point-out the clear mention of national anthems..." You mean unlike when I pointed out the clear mention of national anthems? "Just clarifying with the policy", rather like when I said I interpreted the policy with the guideline in mind? I wonder how surely you can now accuse me of being "someone who thinks they're above guidelines and policies". --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 20:49, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Some of the editors who watch that article pointed-out that the salient point of the policy is that song articles should be "should provide information about authorship, date of publication, social impact, and so on" and not merely the lyrics. In that sense the guideline and policy are in agreement. See Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Does NOT#LYRICS extend to PD songs --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:06, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

• Strong oppose as POINTY and as a misread of WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Wikipedia is full of articles about songs. Listing the lyrics of every rock song, alternative song, rap song, blues song, jazz song, pop song, etc etc would be problematic for several obvious reasons, not the least of which would be an "indiscriminate collection of information". National anthems, however, are not just "songs" and it is ridiculous to try to group them in with commercial creations of the music industry. Taroaldo (talk) 20:27, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Main sample

I mean no offence, but the main sample is rather simple and we have other instrumentals of far better musical quality. The infobox sample is usually of high quality, I refer to the articles on the national anthem for other countries, you'll not find simple performances there, they're all orchestral or band performances of high quality. Where was the consensus for the change, last time such a change was made a discussion began over cultural ties and what not. James ^{(Talk • Contribs)} • 8:28pm • 10:28, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Could you link to these other instrumentals, for comparison? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:30, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

There are links to different instrumental versions within the article itself. You can see the discussion above on what version to use; there were some strong feelings about it. Regarding the example linked to in the infobox, personally I would prefer to link to a different version (you can see my opinion above). However, since by the objective criterion I laid out previously—sufficiently high quality to allow listeners to learn to recognize the anthem—the current version qualifies, I won't object to anyone insisting on keeping it. isaacl (talk) 14:36, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Tamil version

I saw a tamil version of this national anthem. is it appropriate to add that detail in this article, since tamil is neither a recognized nor official language? I do think that the anthem will be in other languages of canada's diverse population! Thanks.-தமிழ்க்குரிசில் (talk) 11:50, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Not really, mostly because Tamil isn't an official language in Canada. Also, unless it's an approved translation, it shouldn't be listed. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I would add it to Wikiquote, to be honest. The only languages that should be here for the anthem is English and French because those are the two official languages in Canada. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 18:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Inuktitut is an official, legal language in Nunavut, but that translation is unofficial and could probably be safely removed. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:21, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 21:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Best to only have official versions as recognized by the FEDERAL government. In the Northwest Territories the Official Languages Act declares that there are eleven different languages. This would just be nuts for this article that is in English. "The Buchan version" should be removed as per the same reasoning. The National Anthem Act of 1980 authorized two official sets of lyrics English and French - no other - including the Bilingual language versions is not official at the federal level.Moxy (talk) 23:05, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Done as two separate edits. The first was to remove the unofficial Inuktitut version and its transliteration (which you've got to admit is pretty cool nonetheless) and the unofficial bilingual version. I moved the literal translation of the French up to be where the Inuktitut version was. I then removed the Buchan. It is listed at http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/symbl/anthem-eng.cfm if anyone wants to dig further, but as per WP:EL, I removed it from the EL section as it's used as a reference. Feel free to revert any or all references, provided that there's no personal attacks in the process. Just being WP:BOLD. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:21, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

"Criticized by secularists"

Two users have readded a reference by an author, Ted Byfield, who is not criticizing the anthem on secular grounds, but rather that the anthem is not secular. It does not support what is being cited. Why shouldn't it be removed? Thargor Orlando (talk) 21:19, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I think the article is just a commentary about the non-secular nature of the anthem, and does not actually criticize it (in the sense of pass negative judgment) or discuss criticism by secularists, and so I agree that it doesn't support the sentence preceding the reference. Thus, I agree with deleting the reference (the other reference is sufficient as a citation). isaacl (talk) 23:05, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

overlink in lede

Canada should not be linked in the lede since it goes against the WP:OVERLINK guideline that states "In particular, unless they are particularly relevant to the topic of the article, the following are not usually linked"

• "the names of major geographic features and locations"

The rule of thumb is that if one links in the lede, you're expecting the reader to divert to that link immediately to gain further information. Why would someone come to the article on Canada's national anthem and expect to click through to the nation? Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:50, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Your argument is completely countered by WP:UNDERLINK, as the country of note is a most "relevant connection to the subject" ... and particularly since the country's name is integral to the anthem name. Really? Desist. 70.54.134.84 (talk) 14:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Not at all countered by UNDERLINK as it's a national anthem, which is linked, and almost every reader on English Wikipedia will have a sufficient understanding of the nation of Canada that no further connection to that subject is required to understand that this is its national anthem. Hence OVERLINK. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Wrong -- in fact, this is a rather idiotic argument, as it is with other national anthem or similar articles you have tried to assert your opinion on (e.g., Australian and American national anthems). Is it not odd that NO link to the country is in this article otherwise? Hence UNDERLINK. You also incorrectly contend that a visitor may not want to visit the article for the country about which an anthem is about, particularly if they did not get there by visiting the 'Canada' article to begin with. 70.54.134.84 (talk) 15:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The Star Spangled Banner was not linked to the United States until you did so. It was correctly reverted here by another editor. The same guideline that unlinked that article was applied here until an anon liked it a few days ago. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:12, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

And then you proceed to delink at Advance Australia Fair, despite the link being in place for some time, in an attempt to do the reverse. Also, you haven't really addressed the argument above regarding underlinking. But your link at SSB demonstrates that someone else restored that link in the lead -- so it is fairly clear that this is an issue. Really, per above, can any editor persuasively argue the merits of not linking AT ALL to a particular country's article (in the lead, let alone elsewhere in the article) of this or similar articles while citing WPOVERLINK in the same breath? 70.54.134.84 (talk) 18:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes I did unlink it, per the appropriate guideline. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

But just to clarify, you made the argument that the American national anthem was a place on which I tried to assert my opinion (on which guideline should be used). However, I was countering that I was not the only editor who holds that opinion there and that you are edit warring over that there as well. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:10, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• Losing battle - the word will get linked over and over and over again - no point in fighting over a link the average person will think should be there.Moxy (talk) 19:14, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
• Walter, without criticizing any of your interpretations of the relevant guidelines, I think Moxy makes a good point. If we don't allow it to be linked, we are going to end up with reverts and accompanying discussions all the time - which can be avoided for one, minor wikilink. Given that WP:OVERLINK is a guideline, not a policy, I think WP:IAR should apply, and the wikilink should stay (keeping in mind that Walter's interpretations of the relevant guidelines is reasonable). Singularity42 (talk) 21:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated claim...

In the section, Lyric Changes, there is this sentence:

"Weir's original lyrics from 1908 contained no religious references and used the phrase "thou dost in us command" before they were changed by Weir in 1914 to read "in all thy sons command".[1][9][10][11]" The first link does not support the claim made (no mention of it), the second citation is to a book, not a link, and the third and fourth links are dead. The first link gives the full original version by Weir, for which the fourth verse is "Ruler supreme, who hearest humble prayer, Hold our dominion within thy loving care; Help us to find, O God, in thee A lasting, rich reward, As waiting for the Better Day, We ever stand on guard." Which contradicts the claim that the lyrics contained no religious references.77Mike77 (talk) 00:11, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Inspired by Mozart?

It has been noted that the opening theme of "O Canada" bears a strong resemblance to the "March of the Priests" from the opera The Magic Flute, composed in 1791 by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, and that Lavallée's melody was inspired by Mozart's tune.

The first half of the sentence is uncontroversial enough, given the 1st, 2nd, and 4th notes being identical to Mozart's 1st, 2nd & 3rd notes. Does the cited source actually elaborate on the second claim? Sparafucil (talk) 10:05, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Request a quote from the book. I pared the section back a while ago. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:15, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

References

No quote provided, so removing that bit. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:18, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Title

We are going to need a source for the new section below...I will look see what I can find -- Moxy (talk) 16:36, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

The title of song is conveniently bilingual (French-English), which may help to explain its cross-community popularity in Canada. In French there is a circumflex accent above the initial O (Ô) but otherwise it is spelled the same in both languages. While the name of the country pronouced slightly differently in both languages when speaking, /ˈkæn.ə.də/ in English and /ka.na.da/ French, when singing the sounds are very similar. In both French and English the title is vocative phrase, with the O/Ô serving as a clitic which marks the phrase as vocative. In other words, the singer is directly adressing Canada, much as one calls out a person's name before speaking to them (e.g. "O Mark! Come here please."). The rest of the song is threfore also adressed to Canada itself; it is the singer's description of Canada (as a "home and native land" or terre de nos aïeux [land of our forefathers], etc.) and either pledge by the singer to defend the country ("we stand on guard for thee") or a declaration of Canada's power to defend the singer (ta valeur... protégera nos foyers et nos droits [your valour... will protect our homes and rights]).

Comment lots of evidence for the vocative bit.

"You know right from the start that Canada’s anthem is in trouble, because it starts with a vocative sentence." [brucebyfield.com/2012/06/29/dissecting-o-canada/‎ 1]

"both of Canada’s anthems are entitled “O Canada.” Many people erroneously spell “O” as “Oh.” In reality the “O” is used as a vocative to apostrophize Canada and rather than as an exclamation. But most people prefer it as an exclamation." [3]

"Also, the first word is "O" (used as a vocative, to apostrophize Canada), not the exclamation "oh"." [4]

The most interesting part to me is that in other languages which have a vocative case, the name of the country has to change, so it makes more sense. To pick two examples which were once widely spoken in Canada, in Scottish Gaelic it becomes Chanada (ch= throaty "h" sound from Bach or loch) in Ukrainian its Kanado.

I simply dont understand the text added to the article or what you have just written above. I cant find any reliable source for this so will let others comment as phonetics is something I have NO knowledge of in any capacity. -- Moxy (talk) 01:58, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

The last bit is a digression, since Gaelic and Ukrainian aren't official languages. Moxy is pointing out that the anthem is being sung "to" Canada. This becomes obvious when the words "thy" and "thee" appear later, but it isn't like, "Yoohoo, Canada, psst over here!" It's a very formal poetic device, addressing the concept of Canada in the abstract, almost like a hymn to the spirit of the nation.77Mike77 (talk) 04:25, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

A digression in in the eye of the beholder. And you mean that I (Kevlar) am pointing it out. And the point which I am making is that it's a common misperception that the title is "Oh, Canada" as in "Oh my goodnes, Canada is so... (great/terrible/etc.)". Actually the title means "Hey, Canada, I'm talking to you". Now can we put the section back in or waste more keystrokes? --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 20:44, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

What's wasteful is in the eye of the beholder. Asking for sources for certain claims isn't a waste to me. Nor would re-writing the paragraph to remove much of the unfounded and subjective language. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:08, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm opposed to the addition that is essentially WP:OR regardless of how correct it may be. I didn't understand the addition either and not because I'm obtuse, rather it was opaque.

Let's stop trash-talking other editors. Discussing by stating waste or digressions. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:21, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me the only part that could stand is "[by singing "O", the singer is directly addressing Canada", since it's pretty self-evident. But, whether that's even worth mentioning is questionable. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:55, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Why is that the "only part that could stand"? I'm curious. If nothing else the part about "O" being a vocative marker needs to be in there to explain why it's not *Oh Canada! (which is an extremely common mistake!). --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 23:43, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Category:Canadian anthems

Category:Canadian anthems is repeatedly being removed on account that it is "subsumed" within category:Canadian patriotic songs. Category:Canadian anthems is a subcategory of Category:Canadian patriotic songs, so if anything, at least per Wikipedia:Categorization#Subcategorization, it should be in the former and not the latter, since the former is more specific than the latter. However, I have no problem with it being in both categories. But I don't understand the desire to remove it from Category:Canadian anthems, the more specific category. It's a category that is directly on point, after all. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Category:Canadian anthems is repeatedly being added despite it being the parent category for Canadian patriotic songs, which was already present. While I think it makes more sense to have the anthems cat more than the patriotic songs cat, it's proper to add the deepest category, not the one highest up. It should not ever be in both categories. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:46, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

It sounds like both of you are in agreement with including this article in the most-specific/deepest category. As "Canadian anthems" is currently a sub-category of "Canadian patriotic songs", this would mean placing the article under the Canadian anthems category. isaacl (talk) 03:58, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

That's what I don't understand. I agree with the rationale User:Walter Görlitz is setting out, but he seems to be applying it bass ackwards. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 04:00, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I clearly need more sleep. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, it can be confusing. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 04:09, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Hymn Version Removal

@SarekOfVulcan: The author of the hymn version, Albert Durrant Watson, died in 1926. It should be public domain so no copyright problem I think. — Strongjam (talk) 17:11, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Apparently published in at least 1922, if not earlier -- pretty sure that makes it safely PD. I'm still not convinced it belongs in there, but if you are, feel free to revert. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:16, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

If you think it's undue I'm fine with that being the reason for removal. I don't feel that strongly about it. — Strongjam (talk) 17:24, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Off-topic "Controversy" section

As I said in my edit summary, the "Controversy" about some guy making his own statement concerning racism is not a controversy concerning the anthem as such, merely a storm in a teacup in the news involving the anthem. And being all over the news for a day or two doesn't make something encyclopedic. The real controversy at the moment concerns whether to change the official words from "all thy sons" to "all of us". Awien (talk) 21:07, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Awien. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 21:17, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

I believe it is too recent to fairly judge if this event has sufficient significance for inclusion in this article. isaacl (talk) 21:34, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

@Isaacl: Why? What would more time do? The only thing that time could possibly do is if the Tenors actually kick out the "lone wolf" from the group for good. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 21:44, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Encyclopedias cover events of enduring nature. Although often it can be clear that an event will be notable in ten years, sometimes it is not. As there is no rush to include information in Wikipedia, the inclusion of dubiously notable events can be postponed until there is more evidence of long-term significance. isaacl (talk) 21:52, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

And kicking the lone wolf out would still be off topic to the article because it wouldn't affect the anthem itself in the slightest. What would be on-topic would be if parliament decided to incorporate his words into the official version, which is clearly absurd. Awien (talk) 21:56, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

^Exactly, which is why I said that would be the only thing time could possibly tell us, which still wouldn't be relevant. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 22:35, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

The use of the anthem as a sort of protest made very publicly makes it on-topic. However, it's minor in relation to the history of the song and the detail about who's in or out of the group is totally irrelevant. (Plus, I'm sick of reading that over-used trope "lone wolf". It's certainly not encyclopedic.) --₪ MIESIANIACAL 22:49, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia writes about encyclopedic things. We determine if subjects are encyclopedic based on reliable sources. We make exceptions for Routine news reporting, which does not apply to this content, should not be included. It's certainly not breaking news. It has been an ongoing topic of discussion for several days and mentioning it in a brief paragraph is appropriate. I appreciate the removal of "lone wolf" and the the opinion about what that means, and the current form it takes is appropriate. If it grows to be larger, I would protest. If it were reduced, I would not object strenuously. However, if it were deleted, I would object. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:25, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

@Miesianiacal: Fair enough I guess, but why the incorporation of the section into adaptations? It's not an adaptation. It's an alteration by one person and hasn't been publicly adapted. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 23:24, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't know why it was placed in 'Adaptations'; though, I'd guess it's because it was his own adaptation.

I considered moving it to 'Performances', but decided to leave it where it was. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 23:29, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

For the record, the phrases that were replaced were not "With glowing hearts we see thee rise, the True North strong and free", as the group performs the unofficial bilingual version, based on the CBC news interview that I saw, so it would have been "Car ton bras sait porter l'épée, Il sait porter la croix!". See http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/tenors-respond-lives-matter-cbc-1.3677761 and http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/724764739722/ 0:20 to 0:25. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:30, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

^ Good point, they were singing the French version. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:55, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Suggest a reference that the first 4 notes were used by the Centennial Train

There are a few possible sections that may be appropriate for it but may I suggest that a reference be made that the Centenial Train that crossed Canada in 1967 used the first four notes of the anthem, replacing the standard train horn. This could also be mentioned in topic Canadian_Centennial.

A train's whistle is supposed to sound long short-short long and this matches the anthem's notes for the opening "O Canada". I remember reading an article (Macleans?) that somewhere remote in the BC forest the horns to make the tones were developed. The train used it through its trip across Canada.

Yes, obviously this is off topic to the origins of the anthem itself but, under Performances or Popular Culture I believe it has a reasonable place.

And then I looked it up and read this which (please excuse) pissed me off! http://www.nfrm.ca/galdisp.php?resultpage=3&pagesize=4&TitleID=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.100.92 (talk) 07:11, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

{Henri Socha} — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.100.92 (talk) 07:05, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Government recording of O Canada

Regarding this edit: this was discussed earlier. Recordings of O Canada can be copyrighted; the recording of O Canada that was added to this page comes from this government web site. The terms and conditions link at the bottom of the page specify the ownership of all files on the site, and expressly do not permit commercial reproduction. This contravenes Wikipedia's policies for reuse, since it must be possible to copy Wikipedia for commercial use. Thus as previously discussed on this talk page, the file cannot be used. isaacl (talk) 21:50, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Your saying File: Instrumental version of the Canadian National Anthem Copyright-free (on the basis that it not be changed in note or pitch) is from the gov wedsite?--Moxy (talk) 14:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes; the link on the government site matches the link in the description for the audio file. isaacl (talk) 01:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

This should not be raised here but at the file itself. If the copyright is not compatible, it should be deleted from File:Instrumental version of the Canadian National Anthem Copyright-free (on the basis that it not be changed in note or pitch).ogg. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:19, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I accidentally thought the file was on Commons, not English Wikipedia. Regardless, the file should not be linked to from any article. isaacl (talk) 03:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

It is. I nominated it there and pointed it back to the discussion here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with Commons guidelines and policies, so only initially sought to address the policy issue I am aware of on English Wikipedia. Thanks for adding the nomination. isaacl (talk) 03:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

If there are no further comments, I will restore the previous rendition of the anthem in the infobox, as well as in the Canada article. isaacl (talk) 00:25, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

If the deletion happens, we could restore it then, because then it's clear that the copyright was not correct on the file. However, the inverse is also possible: if the file is not deleted because its copyright is compatible with one on commons, we can add it back in. I'm OK either way. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:33, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I have restored the previous version. isaacl (talk) 23:48, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Of Midi vs Proper Harmony

The version currently in the article is a simplistic, unappealing midi version - if the reader has any musical education whatsoever, what he would get if he got to a piano and played (or simply sight-sang, if that's within his talents) it. The US Navy Band version is far from being polyphonic. It of course has some passages were voices other than the melody are embellished or play an independent line - an acceptable (and much appreciated) practice in harmonizing a tune, as one can see in, for example, Bach chorales. Polyphony would sound more like the following organ or choral arrangement of a chorale by Bach: see comment in wikitext . Compare with setting of same tune in a stricter Four-part harmony style by Bach again: .

As for nationalistic issues - irrelevant, a totally subjective criteria and Wikipedia is supposed to offer global viewpoints, not merely what a bunch of highly outspoken editors think. Also, a quick look at List of national anthems reveals that most pages, even of other English-speaking countries (UK, Australia, ...) have a US version as well without it posing problem. Even French wiki has US version for O Canada. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 04:40, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

This is not about nationalism, it's entirely the wrong harmonization (or chord structure) if you will. I don't know the Australian national anthem but I do know "God Save the Queen", but I don't watch those articles and I don't care which version is present there. I can only speak to the version here. If you'd like to find a version that meets your criteria of complex, and yet meets the criteria of not sounding foreign, then feel free to upload it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:47, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

How is it a 'wrong' harmonization? It's maybe different from others one has heard - which is quite a reassuring thing: if all where the same, ... Anyway, it does display use of plenty of nice musical techniques, for example by delaying the resolution of chords at the end of phrases (i.e. end of second phrase) or by embellishing those to provide for better continuity. Furthermore, the National Anthem act does not provide for any "standard" harmony, clearly stating "The words and music of the song “O Canada”, as set out in the schedule, are designated as the national anthem of Canada." ([5]) and then placing it in the public domain which is just a nice legalese way to say "copying, editing, ... expressly allowed".
So there's no wrong version, simply different versions of different musical quality. As somebody pointed out long ago above, "I don't believe that having a different orchestration from the original is an issue. [...] Different arrangements can suit different sets of instruments." It being "different" from what you usually hear is again not an objective criteria: maybe you have heard the wrong version? Furthermore, if the US Navy Band version isn't perfect, then the simply midi file currently in the infobox is objectively worse and it's a disgrace that it's currently sitting there because of a consensus which hasn't moved in years, partly because of unwillingness to discuss again - it's really much better having a foreign edition than a computer generated one. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 12:42, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

See also Talk:Canada/Archive 26#O Canada audio for a more recent discussion on the audio files in question (though essentially covering the same ground as the previous discussions). Because only a small number of people weigh in each time this is discussed, no new consensus has been formed to replace the existing audio file. isaacl (talk) 17:38, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

For something like a national anthem, I would prefer the basic melody in articles - it seems more encyclopedic to me. I can't see any reason not to include the US Navy version with the other listed versions, though. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:42, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Along with the others would be fine. First, would not be because there is a common chord structure and the Navy version does not use it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:14, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

It's already included along with the others - I just commented it out there and replaced the version in the infobox with it. "Common chord structure" - citation needed and per what I said of the National Anthem act, none of those is official so we are free to include whichever is of higher objective quality. Currently, the recordings we could choose from (those in the article) are:

1. Computer generated melody (i.e. infobox)
2. a 1937 version with lyrics which have since been slightly altered
3. 1918 version with French lyrics
4. 1927, carillon bells and then God Save the Queen
5. 1916 instrumental
6. 2000s US 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing
7. 2000s US Navy Band.

2 can be discounted since it's not the official variant of the lyrics. 3 can be discounted because it is not representative (a bilingual version would do better than either French or English). 4 and 5 can be discounted for sound quality. At this point, this leaves us with 1, 6 and 7. 6 and 7 are pretty much the same, except for the slightly faster tempo of 7 and the fact 7 has timed text with the lyrics, so we're down to 1 and 7. Objectively, we have two choices:
1. A simple computer generated version of the melody
7. A harmonized version interpreted by a military band
The harmony is maybe unfamiliar to you, but harmony does not a tune make and the tune remains clearly recognizable. In fact, audiences will usually recognize a tune no matter the underlying harmony, assuming the latter has some logical basis (which it does) - I have heard renditions with a clearly different harmony and that does not make them any lesser interpretation of this tune (or of any tune, for that matter), example: see wikitext Of course, such "extremes" as that example should be avoided for reasons of clarity and encyclopedic purpose, but the US Navy Band is far from that and I don't see why one would prefer 1 over 7 - the melody is as I said clear in both of them and 7 is a superior rendition in all other aspects. Regarding the small number of people, maybe a relevant wikiproject could be contacted or maybe (though we don't want to blow this out of proportion) an RfC could be initiated. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:33, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: (By the way, that edit wasn't me but ignore it) If you disagree, would you please not just ignore the talk page discussion? Do you find my arguments at fault? Or is it just the same kind of stubbornness I have already met for other apparently minor issues but which ended up requiring an RfC? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 00:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)