Talk:Kenneth Williams

Infobox

So what is going on concerning the infobox? Infoboxes generally aid a reader in understanding the subject of the article; there is no point in removing it. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk • contribs) 19:11, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

At last. Per WP:BRD, it appears the "D" part is lost on poor old Uncle Mitty. Anyway, you seem so confident that you speak for "the reader", but like everyone else here, you fail to provide a diff. Can you show me proof that this particular box aids the reader? Or is this another whimsical fancy picked out of the sky of nothingness? Cassianto^Talk|

My dear @Cassianto:, I will copy my previous reply to you here, as you seemed to have missed it before: Simply look at the edit history of that article. Up until you removed the infobox two days ago the article has had an infobox since July of 2007. Over 10 years of editors not only allowing it to remain but also improving it by adding more information. WP:EDITCONSENSUS is the link you'll want to refer to regarding this type of consensus. If you'll take the time to read WP:INFOBOXUSE you'll see that whether or not an article has an infobox is wholly up to consensus, and you had zero consensus to remove it two days ago. Since then, you've been blatantly editwarring to keep it the way you want it. Now you can stop. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 19:34, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

You can copy and paste your nonsense here if you wish, my dear Uncle Milty, but my questions remain the same. I worry that you're talking gibberish and are unable to provide evidence of your rather bold claim that a mythical, infobox fan base existed prior to its removal. Rather than waste your time trying to justify this to me, why don't you start an RfC and link to the box that was there without a consensus? Or does the outcome of the RfC already exist in your own head, like the "consensus" that, apparantly, existed before it? Oh, and anything you need to say can be said here. You are not welcome at my talk page. Cassianto^Talk 19:40, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Where is the discussion and subsequent consensus that led you to remove the infobox twelve times within a 24 hour period? I can't seem to find that anywhere. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 19:51, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

This is not a chicken and the egg scenario. The adding of the box came first, in 2007, without a discussion taking place. That was a bold edit that could've been challenged. The fact that it wasn't, doesn't mean a consensus is in place. This is the fourth time I've asked you to provide a link to evidence that a consensus - by the Cambridge Dictionary definition - was in place. I can tell you; a discussion was not had and you and your friends appear to think it OK to stick two fingers up to WP:BRD to disruptively enforce this cancer onto this article, where it does little good. Everything that can be found in the box can be found in the lead section. The lead section is a summary of the lead. We would not be having this discussion where the box actually does some good, like a geographical article; a political article; a film article; a sports article... This is a minor biographical article and this kind of dumbing down makes us come across as throughly unprofessional. Cassianto^Talk 23:12, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Infoboxes tend to be really useful - a handy summary of the individual. Not sure why it should be removed? If it's been there for 10 years, consensus has been established, so removing it should be discussed. IMO. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 22:29, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

IMO, you're talking bollocks. Perhaps adding it should be discussed? Or maybe you think participating in an edit war, without leaving an edit summary, is becoming of an administrator? Cassianto^Talk 23:04, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Can anyone provide a diff that shows it's been there for the last ten years, or is it simply a diff to show that ten years ago, someone thought it might be a good idea to add an infobox, and subsequently it's been removed/added/removed etc? People need to be careful before claiming things like "it's been there for 10 years" if that's simply not true. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:16, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

A simple diff won't show that, but I've did a rough search to find the origin (checking every tenth edit or so) and some form of the infobox has existed since July of 2007: diff. At worst, it may have been removed at some point but was quickly returned. At no point has there been the type of edit war we've seen the past few days. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 23:26, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

So you can't provide a diff to a consensus-forming discussion? Thought not. So why do you insist on moaning that it is up to me to find a consensus when one doesn't exist in the first place? Cassianto^Talk 23:29, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

I've provided the information you seek a number of times. You, on the other hand, have done nothing but provide personal attacks. We are here. We are discussing consensus. Please help if you are interested. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 23:33, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

"We are Here". We are indeed. What's your point? So you now agree to seek a consensus to add the box? Great. If one forms, I'll not protest. But until then, the box stays off as no consensus exited in the first place. Cassianto^Talk 23:37, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

(ec) Well my "quick" search showed that it hasn't had an infobox for about six months preceding the 21 December edits, during which time a lot of quality edits were made to improve the article. So I'd say we're looking for a good reason to add it, rather than a good reason to remove it right now. Given that it simply repeats the text of the lead, it seems a bit odd that people are so hell-bent on adding an infobox. I see the Women in Red project people adding an infobox which just has the name of the individual, for the very same reasons I see given here for its inclusion. That, I'm afraid, is clueless crowd-following. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:30, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

This has all come about from an 82... iP stalking my contributions, engaging in edit wars, and reverting my many edits across the website in order to create drama like this. Funny, they don't appear to be around much now... NeilN, this was the IP's goal, to create trouble and then slink off to the shadows to stuff their face full of popcorn. Cassianto^Talk 23:41, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

It was removed here on June 28 of this year: diff. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 23:50, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Correct, so going on your logic, six months of no one reverting means a consensus not to reinstate is in existence. Or do you intend to move that goal post too? Cassianto^Talk 23:54, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Ten years of having an infobox means nothing though, right? --| Uncle Milty | talk | 23:56, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Like I've pointed out on your talk page, WP:SILENCE is redundant as I've challenged the "presumed" consensus. It is now up to that consensus to become established through discussion. A presumption, as pointed out elsewhere, is no substitute for an actual consensus. As the article started off with no infobox, the article is restored to this version pending a reachable consensus. Cassianto^Talk 00:03, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

@Cassianto: Right- so correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that if an article started if with an infobox, and then was removed, the article should be restored to the version with an infobox, pending a reachable consensus? Or is this double standards? jcc (tea and biscuits) 00:27, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Just seen your talk page, Jcc. In that case, I'll say nothing to you here either. Do not ping me or talk to me. I will not respond. And that includes thanking me, as you just did. If I have anymore of that I'll report you for harassment. Cassianto^Talk 08:50, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

You are spectacularly missing the point. Thanks = acknowledgement of your wishes. Though report me if you want, you are after all the person who's been banned from my talk page, so we'll see how that goes. Maybe it'll go like your last ANI thread where you tried to report me? jcc (tea and biscuits) 12:05, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

12:08, 27 December 2017 Gerda Arendt (talk | contribs) thanked Jcc (talk | contribs) But it's fine to urge someone on with the thank button. Cassianto^Talk 13:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

When I use the thank button, I am aware that it is open for everyone to see, and it means thanks and support, no "urge". I am quite generous with thank-you-clicks, as you probably know. On the third day of Christmas, for which Bach composed "Höre der Herzen frohlockendes Preisen" (Hear the hearts' rejoicing praise). Sorry, no praise for making an edit you knew would be controversial (such as reverting a stable infobox) on Christmas Day. I don't know what to think, but better unwatch now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:11, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

The "Thanks" feature is open to a lot of manipulation. Would you mind if I don't AGF with your use of it? Would you not consider the adding of an infobox "controversial"? Looking at the crass, bullshit boxes you've added in the past, evidently not. Cassianto^Talk 15:10, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I don't really care either way if the article has an infobox, but this is not useful. Its information value is virtually non-existent. I believe "status quo/retain" argument are the only way to resolve infobox disputes, but you undermine the argument by invoking it in cases such as this. If the discussion cannot come to some kind of consensus about what would go in a "substantial" infobox then it should be simply dropped from the article. Betty Logan (talk) 04:40, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

  I agree that the December 12, 2016 version of the infobox was not very informative, however this is what was there when the infobox was removed without any discussion just a few days ago and just over a year later than the example you shared. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 05:34, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

  Again, and for the umpteenth time in asking; where was the discussion when the box was added? You seem to think that the discussion only works one way? It's not and now that it's been removed, the article is at its last stable version. Cassianto^Talk 07:39, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

  Where was the discussion when the box was removed? --| Uncle Milty | talk | 07:54, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

  In the same place as your discussion to add one in 2007. Cassianto^Talk 22:32, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

  @Uncle Milty: The addition of the infobox in 2007 may have been bold at first, but through ten years of silent consensus, it became the default stable version. Now removal of the infobox is the bold move, which was reverted, so we should be discussing that. jcc (tea and biscuits) 00:30, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

  What a load of old shit you talk. Silent = non-existent, unless of course you can provide names of those who remained silent so I can now approach them to ask if they can now put something down in writing, supporting it. There is no such thing as a "silent consensus", see any dictionary and it'll give you the definition. Whether Wikipedia likes it or not, you cannot rewrite definitions. Cassianto^Talk 07:34, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

  I went back a year to see what the actual long-standing stable version was, since that is the version that has enjoyed the "silent consensus" all these years. Everyone seems to be on the same page insofar that the version that has been in the article all these years isn't much cop. Betty Logan (talk) 17:05, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

• Comment An IB is redundant on *this* article as the relevant information is given in the lead; an IB is unable to provide sufficient nuance for detail so it is better in a textual format. Unfortunately, we have the same scenario as usually rages around almost every IB 'discussion': IB proponents insist it's perfectly acceptable to do drive-by additions of IBs, some at a rate of knots with IPs managing to do so too, all with no discussion whatsoever, yet as soon as the occasional removal of an unsuitable IB occurs, a flash mob appears twisting reasoning to fit their own preference. For instance, IB proponents insist that if an article was created with an IB respect must be given to the creator but apparently this does not apply if it was created without; if an IB is added without consensus IB proponents feel that's OK and requires no discussion yet scream any removals must have consensus. Same old, same old ... ... SagaciousPhil - Chat 12:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose infobox inclusion at this time. With what was there before removal, the infobox contained no info. The point of the infobox is to provide quick-glance information that gives a relatively inclusive look at the article subject's life. As it was, the infobox was the antithesis of its intended purpose. Without more in it, it's just window-dressing and useless. I generally come down on the side of being pro-infobox, but not in this case. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 15:57, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
• Comment One again, we have the Gordian Knot of "should there be any infobox" and "what would be a useful infobox" inextricably tangled up together. If someone suggests a method of untying this particular seasonal puzzle, they certainly deserve a prize. But I strongly suspect we'll end up with yet another cut. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:06, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose -- I am neither for nor against infoboxes, in general. In fact, I consider them to be a great tool on complicated articles such as royalty, music, film, political, sports, military, and geographical articles; however, I consider them to be useless everywhere else. Here are some of my reasons for not including an infobox here:
  1. Undisciplined expansiveness: A maximum-inclusion approach to fields that leads editors to place repetitive, sometimes downright silly information in the box. (There needs to be clear, prominent advice about not using every single field in every circumstance, and rather the need to ration the information, shaping it to the context.)
  2. Visual degradation: The way this infobox squashes the text to the left, particularly on smaller screens, and restrict the sizing of the lead picture.
  3. Prefabrication: The prefabricated feel this infobox gives to this article: "here's quick and dirty info if you can't be bothered to read on—the very name of the box" says it all.
  4. Disconnected particles: Its domination of the very opening of this article with chopped up morsels that seem to contradict the continuous, connected form and style of the running prose. (If the justification is that adding an infobox provides both genres, the problem is this utter visual domination at the top—and see the next point.)
  5. Uncertain benefit for readers: The failure of anyone who promotes infoboxes like this to explain how they are read. (Do readers look at them first, before embarking on the lead? Does the existence of infoboxes encourage readers not to absorb the main text? Do readers hop from article to article looking only at infoboxes—an argument I've heard put for retaining blue-carpeted linking practices within infoboxes? Do readers just glance quickly at the infobox and then read the article proper—in which case, what is the relationship between the infobox and the rest, and does the former reduce the impact of the latter through pre-empting basic information that the reader will encounter in the running prose? What functionality is missing when an article does not have an infobox?)
  6. Better as lists: The fact that infobox information seems, in design, to be for comparison between topics. (If this is the case, the information would be far, far better in a WP List, where the form is much better suited to comparison, and the relationship between lead and table can be made to work very well indeed; see WP:Featured lists for what I mean.)
  7. Fictitious technical benefits: There has never been a centralised RfC or similar that means we need to provide dross for the deeply flawed nonsense of Wikidata. The information on the subject is already at Wikidata, so it doesn't need to be provided again by having an infobox. An infobox does not need to be here again in order for Google and others to use: they strip info from Wikidata, not here, so it's absence here does not affect either Wikidata or third party users. Cassianto^Talk 22:24, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose IBs aren't WP requirements and shouldn't be there "for the sake of having a box". If they don't fulfill a specific purpose on a case by case basis, there shouldn't be all the Sturm und Drang that seems to accompany a removal. More emphasis should be placed on improving/expanding a given article than on the IB.

  There are 2 million + stubs here at present. Many consist of perhaps a sentence or two with no references; quite a few of them have IBs and often the box is larger than the article itself. Here's one-New and Lingwood-3 sentences and 2 references; the box has had more attention than the article. It's been brought to AfD and what would save it from deletion wouldn't be the nice box it has. I concur with SagaciousPhil, Winkelvi, Betty Logan and Cassianto that no box is no big deal; it would be much better to try working together to improve the article than to spend the time arguing about a box. We hope (talk) 12:22, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

• Restore the infobox per WP:INFOBOX, WP:BRD, and our general principle to revert to the status quo ante when consensus cannot be reached about inclusion or removal of something. This article had an infobox for years without any issue. I agree with the comments at the abortive ANI thread that this needs to go back to ArbCom. This "infobox warring" bullshit is really, really tedious (in both the pro and con directions) and needs to stop.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  22:48, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
  See also Talk:Cary Grant#RFC on Inclusion of Infobox, essentially the same discussion with mostly the same people just at a different page.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  22:51, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Indeed, it is tedious isn't it. I'm so glad you agree. But your still happy to take part, aren't you, as otherwise, you wouldn't be here. Cassianto^Talk 23:00, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

    And? Last I looked, no one had a gun pointed at their head and was forced to participate in discussions they didn't want to. I wouldn't call it "happy" to participate, but I will participate in discussions that appear to pretended WP:ARBINFOBOX didn't happen.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:15, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

  • Hurry! Don't waste any time if you can get ArbCom to hear the issue! They refused to hear 2 cases on the subject in August 2016 despite the issues. We hope (talk) 18:02, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

    It's just a matter of time.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:15, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose infobox per Cassianto and We hope. At risk of repeating what I've said several times in the past; an infobox simply offers no value to many bios in the liberal arts field, especially this one. JAGUAR 14:20, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
• Restore infobox per SMcCandlish. Agree in all respects, including that infobox warring is tiresome. Agree also that this needs to be dealt with by Arbcom. Coretheapple (talk) 14:18, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Well I never! Cassianto^Talk 14:52, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
• Restore infobox - it's been there for ages (10 years). The article is soo much more than a stub that having the IB info at the top is actually useful. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 04:47, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Another wild claim. Evidence of this claim please? Cassianto^Talk 06:51, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
    • Sure, Cassianto. Here's some evidence for you.
      • A) The infobox was added on July 25, 2007. I mis-stated slightly, as that means the edit was 9.5 years ago.
      • B) Per WP:STUB, "A stub is an article deemed too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject." This article, at over 3,000 words, is definitely not a stub.
      • C) Some of the information in the removed infobox isn't anywhere else in the article - for instance, place of birth and death.
      • D) More of the information in the removed infobox is at least half-way down the page - for instance, the cause of death. These two items mean that having the infobox at the top, with the associated information, is useful.
    • This article was stable for a very long time. So your change (to remove the infobox) should have a good reason. From what I can tell, your main argument is that the infobox isn't useful. Can you provide evidence of that? Because from where I sit, you seem to be exhibiting tendentious editing.
    • Furthermore, you seem to be arguing that nearly 10 years of stability is not consensus. In fact, you're asking for a diff or link for consensus "by the Cambridge Dictionary definition". Please consider that WP:CONSENSUS is probably different from the Cambridge definition, and that's by design. So we really only have three pieces of information to go on:
      • The infobox was added nearly 10 years ago. No discussion (and therefore no request for removal) happened, but no one objected.
      • You removed the infobox on December 23. Since that removal, an edit war has taken place.
      • In the ensuing discussion here, we seem to be relatively split. It seems to me that if we don't have a strong consensus to remove the box, then perhaps we should leave it the way it was for 9.5 years. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 17:34, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
        • A) What's your point? So what if it was 10 years ago? I don't fall for silent consensus'. I think they are bullshit. And anyway, consensus can change, apparantly, according to those on your side of the argument; or is that just exclusive to you and people who share your opinion?
        • B) What's your point? Michael Hordern, Stanley Holloway, George Robey, Joseph Grimaldi, and many, many others don't have idiotboxes, and they are featured content. They passed at WP:FAC without boxes in place. How do you explain that?
        • C) If it's not in the article then it shouldn't be in the infobox
        • D) Then adjust the lead? Or is it beneath you to add to the prose?
        • E) I had a good reason - the "R" in WP:BRD.
        • F) The evidence is in "the rest of the article". Try reading it, you'll see it's repeated, most of it in the lead
        • G) They have now. There is no time limit. Particularly when it comes to WP:CCC
        • F) It's not me who's warring; it's the idiots who believe they speak for every reader in the world.
        • H) Or perhaps not. Perhaps we should go back to the last stable version, which is without the bold edit in 2007.

          Please feel free to counter any of my points, as and when you have the time. Cassianto^Talk 21:22, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

          • So you're an avid "get rid of idiotboxes" user - I get that. Some responses to your points:
          • You've used the BRD argument several times. If I read the history page right, you Reverted a user's contribution to the infobox back on the 23rd of December, and in fact deleted the whole infobox - with the edit summary "No consensus for this". You then reverted edits replacing the infobox Thirteen times over the next two days, all without Discussing the issue at all. That sounds like edit warring to me. Maybe follow your own advice and do all three?
          • I get that consensus can change. Usually that is done through discussion. Which is what is going on here. As I read all these comments, there isn't strong consensus to remove the infobox, though to be fair, there isn't a strong consensus to include one, either. My opinion? Spend more time making the article better and less time worrying about a stupid infobox. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 03:42, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
            • Wrong. This, this, this, and this should prove that I'm not an "avid 'get rid of idiotboxes' user" at all. I like infoboxes that assist in navigation around complicated articles, as per my comment in my !vote, above; I just dislike infoboxes like this that offer no purpose whatsoever, and are there purely because people like you think it's part of the Wikipedia uniform. It is not and it never has been. The MoS is clear about this and states that infoboxes are neither required not prohibited and whether to have an infobox and anything they should contain should be discussed on the talk page first. That didn't happen in 2007; someone simply added it without a discussion and it remained there for 10 years. Simply because it was left to wallow in all its stupidness does not render the MoS null and void, and the box untouchable. Nowhere in that rule does it say that an infobox, if sat there for several years, cannot and must not be deleted.
            • The onus is not on me to discuss. If you read that essay it is a 1-2-1 cycle: person 1 is Bold, person 2 Reverts, and person 1 initiates a Discussion. Just because person 1 is actually other people who watch the Williams page, socks or people who have no doubt been canvassed on private email, does not negate the cycle. I think you'll find that most of the reverts were done in equal measures. It takes more than one person to create an edit war, and if people are too thick to understand how BRD works, then that's not my problem.
            • 100% agree with you. Wow, I didn't think that would happen. Yes, people should stop worrying about the infobox and worry about actually improving the article. But the people who you've seen here have shown little interest in article improvement and think it is more important to worry about a box with a load of bulleted, uninteresting, and repetitive factoids in it, rather than to actually improve the stuff that matters - the prose. It's patronising of them to assume that our readership are too dense to be able to read a short and uncomplicated lead section to gain the information. Instead, they create an ugly, repetitive, and redundant infobox for these thick, uneducated readers to gain their information from. With regards to the lack of consensus for either? Well, the article should effectively be "reset" and be restored back to its most stable state, and that was before the edit in 2007. Discussion, should then be had about the merits of whether to include an infobox and what it should contain, if anything. Cassianto^Talk 06:20, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

          Re: Cassianto's "I don't fall for silent consensus'. [sic] I think they are bullshit." – That preference is immaterial, since WP works this way as a matter of policy. WP:CONSENSUS:

          1. "Consensus is a normal and usually implicit and invisible process across Wikipedia. Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus. Should that edit later be revised by another editor without dispute, it can be assumed that a new consensus has been reached. In this way, the encyclopedia is gradually added to and improved over time." A decade of no dispute fits the first criterion; removal of the ibox fails the second.
          2. And: "In deletion discussions, a lack of consensus normally results in the article, page, image, or other content being kept."
          3. And: "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit."

           — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:15, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose, infoboxes are best used for politicians & sports figures. GoodDay (talk) 07:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

  Why would that be true, and on what basis do you assert it? The vast majority of pool player bios have no infobox and seem just fine. Creating an infobox for, say, Lynette Horsburgh would be unlikely to improve the article, unless a special infobox were developed for pool players for organizing stats (as has been done with snooker players, e.g. Ronnie O'Sullivan). The majority of the holders of the political office of Vice-Admiral of Devon (and many others) have no infobox, yet do not seem to be suffering as a result. By contrast, Roger Moore, Lemmy, Stephen Hawking and insert several thousand more examples here have infoboxes that seem about as useful as infoboxes are (i.e., subjectively useful to some and a distraction to others, but overall supported by consensus or we'd just WP:TFD all the infoboxes and be done with it).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:15, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

• Restore infobox. It provides summary information in an at-a-glance form different from the lead and puts to good use some of the whitespace otherwise left to the right of the contents menu. In fact it expands on the lead on some points, as noted above. Since there was no infobox from July 2017 (that user's only edit to the article or talk page) to December, after which everything got hectic, I don't object to leaving it out until the discussion is closed. Pre-2007 is irrelevant. Since the arguments on both sides, except about what the status quo ante is, apply to a whole class of other articles, a broader RfC or, as SMcCandlish said, Arbcom case seems like a good idea, to avoid this whole debate, which makes unpleasant reading, being repeated endlessly. Mortee (talk) 22:31, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
  • The idiotbox should not carry anything that is not in the lead. The answer would be to extend the lead. But shudder the thought at actually writing something. Cassianto^Talk 22:47, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

    Anything in the infobox should also be in prose in the article body, so you're engaging in false dichotomy.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:15, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

    ...and you're engaging in a discussion that has long since died a death. Kindly go about your business. Cassianto^Talk 20:22, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

    No idea what you're talking about. You last commented in this thread yourself less than 24 hours ago.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:27, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Writing about mental health

The construction of "Though Williams was fondly regarded in the entertainment industry, he suffered from depression and found it hard to come to terms with his homosexuality.", although a conventional way of talking about depression, has the implication that depression has a very low prevalence in those who are held in affection by their peers, which I don't think is true. 79.64.38.7 (talk) 19:38, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I would agree that's not true. But it is only a possible implication, as the sentence can be read as just a contrast between a positive aspect of his life and a negative one. Even if he was well regarded, of course, by others in the industry may not have made this apparent. Is this any better: "Williams was fondly regarded in the entertainment industry; but he suffered from depression and found it hard to come to terms with his homosexuality."? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:53, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Arguments on Just a Minute

With reference to this assertion in the article:

"He frequently got into arguments with host Nicholas Parsons and other guests on the show."

Does this, as I'm guessing (not being familiar with the program myself), refer to mock arguments within the program proper, i.e., collegial "play" arguments for comedic effect (along the lines of KW's pretend meltdowns on Round the Horne, though perhaps impromptu rather than scripted)? Assuming yes, I think the statement should be clarified, as it's currently ambiguous and might be interpreted to mean that KW had actual, serious behind-the-scenes disputes with his colleagues. Jcejhay (talk) 16:52, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Or perhaps it's a gray area, given the panel-show format? (As on Would I Lie to You? for instance, where the panelists sometimes engage in ostensibly "real" little arguments that are, however, probably amped up to make for good entertainment?) Anyway, I'd love to see the statement in the present article clarified insofar as that's possible. Jcejhay (talk) 17:01, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Update: I've just edited the article to include a clarifying statement that I ran across in an editor's footnote to KW's published letters: 'Russell Davies, editor of The Kenneth Williams Letters, explains that Williams's "famous tirades on the programme occurred when his desire to entertain was fuelled by his annoyance,"' with citation. Davies goes on to say that "[w]hen he was really angry, he fell silent."Jcejhay (talk) 22:34, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

CN tags

CN tags are rarely helpful and smack of lazy, uncollegial editing. They merely stick a plaster over unverifiable information, and allow it to remain there until someone can be bothered to find a source, which is almost unheard of - I found a CN tag from 2007 the other day! Unsourced content should be removed on sight, per WP:V. Cassianto^Talk 22:24, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Or citations added, which is preferable. - SchroCat (talk) 22:28, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

The way I read this section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Responsibility_for_providing_citations) in the page you reference, CN tags are not necessarily discouraged. It sounds like it depends. Here, the subject is no longer living (the big concern, obviously) and the assertions are likely documentable by the next editor who has the Diaries in front of them while editing. There is no particular reason to doubt the unsourced assertions I saw; they just ought to be matched up with the specific diary passages that support them. Jcejhay (talk) 22:33, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure why the diaries are needed: the tag removed was in the "comic performer" section. The only information not cited is about Round the Horne, a featured article which carries references to cover all that paragraph, none of which is from the diaries. - SchroCat (talk) 22:37, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Well, this, for instance, regarding Hancock's Half Hour: "Despite the success and recognition the show brought him, Williams considered theatre, film and television to be superior forms of entertainment." Based on KW's known opinions I think it's likely the assertion is accurate, but really it ought to have a citation to clinch it. Jcejhay (talk) 22:41, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

In any event, if I'm being told that (1) we ought never to use assertion-level or section-level "citation needed" tags, or (2) that citations aren't needed if the documentation exists in another article that's wikilinked, then I'd like to see a larger number of editors testify to this. Jcejhay (talk) 22:53, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is telling you that. My comment about the information being on another article covered two points: firstly that the diaries are not used in the RtH informatio that is uncited here (it was the only paragraph not covered by a citation in the section you added the tag into); and 2. The RtH article has several sources that are accessible to get the information to use here. - SchroCat (talk) 23:00, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

So, Jcejhay, very much at your fingertips, as it turns out. It perhaps would've been more beneficial coming here to seek a source rather than to tag it. I'm sure, between SchroCat and I, we could've pointed you in the right direction, or added it ourselves. I'm certainly not saying "never use" CN tags, I'm saying they are seldom ever helpful, unless it is used to aid an article that is under construction by someone who'll do something about it, as they have the sources. Cassianto^Talk 23:53, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

RfC about "citation needed" tags

Is it inappropriate to use assertion-level and section-level "citation needed" tags in this biography of a non-living subject, where assertions are generally credible but specifically unsourced and the editor wishing to apply the CN tags does not have quick and easy access to the sources whence citations might come? Jcejhay (talk) 00:11, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Sometimes - CN tags are rarely helpful and can smack of lazy, uncollegial editing. They merely stick a plaster over unverifiable information, and allow it to remain there until someone can be bothered to find a source, which, let's be honest, doesn't happen all too often. The oldest CN tag I have found is from 2007; that's 13 years that we have allowed unverifiable information to remain on an article. Unsourced content should be removed on sight, per WP:V, and it is, if it is seen straight away. It is no different doing this than it is removing it a few years down the line. If the result of a talk page discussion with those who watch the article fails to achieve the desired source being identified, it should be removed and not tagged. Cassianto^Talk 00:40, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

I've never used an RfC before, but I thought the idea was to get new eyes on an ongoing dispute among three or more people—not for the individuals who are already party to the dispute to chime in again. Jcejhay (talk) 00:49, 4 February 2020 (UTC)