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Gratuitous references to religious & ethnic backgrounds

I have noticed that a great many Wikipedia articles about well-known individuals gratuitously refer to his/her Jewish background, even when the person's ethnicity or religion is completely irrelevant to their lives or to the subject matter of the article.

This occurs only in the case of Jews, as far as I can determine. I do not see non-material references to one's Christian or Muslim heritage. Nor do I see references noting that a person comes from Armenian, Scottish, Icelandic, or other ethnic backgrounds.

When I have seen these references, I have removed them. See for example, my recent edit to the article on MIT Professor George Boolos. Dr. Boolos was born in the USA, and while his family may have been Jewish, his contributions were to logic and the philosophy of mathematics and not to Jewish studies or to Judaism.

Another example. which I have not changed, is the article on social psychologist Kurt Lewin. There are many, many other examples.

It does seem to me that there may be a despicable thread of anti-Semitism in the edits of some Wikipedia contributors that ought to be noted and addressed by administrators. So I guess I am asking for a policy change in which a non-material reference to one's ethnicity or religion is not permitted.

For your information, the Nazi regime began doing something like this in 1940 -- requiring, in this case, that professors at universities be characterized as "of Jewish origin", even if the person in question had been born to a family living in Germany for many generations.

These kinds of things are abhorrent to me, and I hope you share that sentiment.

Thank you.

Roberterubin (talk) 00:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you don't look at enough articles. I see plenty of irrelevant references to Christian or Muslim heritage and even more to ethnic background. Particularly prevalent in category addition, most commonly related to race or religion rather than origin. --ClubOranje^T 01:24, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree that there are many irrelevant references to religious and ethnic backgrounds. Should those references be removed? How many of those references are based on bigoted motives? I believe, based on AGF, that the answer is "no" unless there is strong evidence to the contrary. SMP0328. (talk) 01:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I think this has less to do with any form of racism that it does with some form of ethnic/national pride. Very often it seems contributors who belong to a specific group want to highlight the accomplishments of that group's members. On the other hand, many articles do indeed make too much of minor details and could be trimmed. Doc Tropics 02:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

To put out in the open any conflict of interest some may think I have, I am going to state here for the record that I am in fact a Jew. I am proud of that yes, and I am proud of Jews that are famous. I don't work on articles about people, though I am going to be soon working on one, and ironically it is one in which race is important to mention. This is how I think- unfortunately white people have had the ability and opportunity to shape much of the world's history and write much of the world's history in their favor, they therefore are over represented, and therefore when we (minorities) have someone of our particular ethnic or racial background do something amazing then yes it is notable that they were of a minority background. Ther person I will be writting about is Adam Blake, Jr. who owned the Kenmore Hotel in pre-Civil War Albany, New York, he was African-American and though born a freeman his father had been a slave. The fact that as a black man he was respected, very wealthy, and built and owned a hotel, all in that time period where he could not vote or hold an elected office even in a northern city, it is very important to mention his race. In fact if he had been a white man he wouldn't have been notable at all and I wouldn't make an article about him! It is equally relevant to mention that Albert Einstein was Jewish or Leonard Nemoy from Star Trek is Jewish (as is William Shatner). To mention someone is Jewish it is just as notable as mentioning that someone is American or Canadian. To compare it to other religions is wrong, it is an ethnic group and nationality and more comparable to how articles mention if someone (such as Shatner or Pamela Anderson) is Canadian, or how Jackie Robinson was Black. The poster, who I will give good-faith to, in the way he/she posted made it seem like they were trying to fight against racism by keeping the mention of Jewishness from being in an article. The way it was written however I saw it through other eyes and saw it as anti-semitic 'why do Jews get to go around putting on articles mentioning who's a Jew when Christians don't do that', but I think I read it that way through the prism of someone who has been affected by racism and the fact that the poster put, and I quote- "This occurs only in the case of Jews, as far as I can determine." I think the poster chose some poor words in that sentence and I encourage, strongly, that the editor refrain from continuing to remove from articles references to the individual being Jewish, as I think that sentence would come back to haunt them should someone bring a complaint.Camelbinky (talk) 03:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Some infobox templates for people include religion. Peter jackson (talk) 10:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Virtually every single biographical article refers to ancestry. For example, Thomas Edison:

"Thomas Edison was born in Milan, Ohio, and grew up in Port Huron, Michigan. He was the seventh and last child of Samuel "The Iron Shovel" Edison, Jr. (1804–1896) (born in Marshalltown, Nova Scotia, Canada) and Nancy Matthews Elliott (1810–1871). He considered himself to be of Dutch ancestry.[1]"John Chamberlain (talk) 23:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no mention of Edison's religion or ethnic background in the article. You are referring to the country from which his family came, and I am talking about neither that nor race. In my review of many Wikipedia biographical articles, I do not see widespread gratuitous mention of ethnic background or religion except in the case of Jews. In many such cases an individual's Jewish background is mentioned instead of his or her nationality.Roberterubin (talk) 21:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

In cases where a reference to someone's religion is put in place of his nationality, a correction is in order. SMP0328. (talk) 21:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

My point was that many Wikipedia contributors go out of their way to make sure readers know that the person they are writing about is Jewish, whether or not it is relevant to the article. It is a case of "overcategorization", which may be motivated by anti-Semitism. I think that it has no place in Wikipedia. And I would extend that to include the gratuitous mention of anyone's religion or ethnicity. But Jews seem to be singled out for this. Take a look, for example, at the articles on the men who have served this country as Federal Reserve chairmen. With the exception of Eugene Meyer, all of those who happened to be Jewish are so identified, while the religion of all of the others is not mentioned at all. Odd, isn't it? And pernicious, in my view.Roberterubin (talk) 01:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I wish you would provide any evidence whatsoever that this mentioning of jewishness is pernicious, anti-semitic, or in any way negative. Good faith would allow you as easily to assume that it was being done for reasons of pride; or because the Jewish collective is regarded as an ethnoreligious group, in distinct contrast to, for instance, Christianity. Whereas I agree that the issue is noteworthy, I tell you frankly that the way you are going about raising it does not inspire me to get involved in any way shape or form. Indeed you lost me at the point that you drew a comparison between wikipedia authors and 1930s Germany. I'd be reasonably sure that others are avoiding you for the same reason. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:42, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I wonder what you mean by "the Jewish collective"? And I drew a comparison not between 1930s Germany and Wikipedia authors, but between the needless classification of people according to their religion or religious heritage on Wikipedia, which reminded me of the same kind of thing that was done in Germany under the Nazi regime.Roberterubin (talk) 03:43, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Roberterubin, YOU are the one being anti-semitic and racist in this entire discussion and I encourage you strongly, again!, to drop this and not remove any mentioning of a person's Jewishness from an article. To SMP0328- being a Jew is an ethnic and national designation as well as a religion, in fact one can be Jewish and belong to a different religion. That is not possible for Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah Witness', Muslims, etc. so nothing needs to be "corrected" in this case. Back to Robertrubin- I for one will not tolerate anyone with an anti-semitic agenda trying to use Wikipedia to push their agenda. Remove the mentioning of someone being Jewish (and Roberterubin is ONLY wanting to remove Jews because "they are the only ones he sees") and next comes removing any article about anyone who is Jewish. I know that is extreme and wont happen, but of course that's what my family said in 80 years ago...Camelbinky (talk) 01:54, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't think that removing references to one's religion that are not relevant to the material of an article (and I don't restrict this suggestion to Jews only, but to all such cases, as I have repeatedly stated) leads to removing articles about Jews.Roberterubin (talk) 03:43, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

As I read it, Robert, you're opposed to it for the same reason you'd be opposed to putting Tutsi/Hutu in biographies (or requiring people to carry ID stating it).

Likely the people putting the information there mean to positively highlight it, but it does smack of an anti-X policy of identifying subversives or undesirables. In some cases it might matter, but usually seems like an over-exaggerated detail. (As in when someone says "I'm in a class - with two asians!" Why is this detail so important to them?

I think RR is right to remove the information when he doesn't think it adds to the article. Jewish, Muslim, Black, White, Fat or Tall. If it IS important information it should leave a hole in the article - if it does not it was a good edit. 74.198.97.35 (talk) 17:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

If Roberterubin thinks that only jewish people are identified in articles, he obviously hasnt wandered in the world of articles about Bollywood actors where identification of individuals as hindu or muslim is found in nearly every page. -- The Red Pen of Doom 02:10, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I was not aware of it, and I am just as opposed to immaterial references to one being Hindu or Muslim as I am to one being Jewish.Roberterubin (talk) 03:43, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

This, largely, sums it up; as long as you consider the rest of the world "immaterial" your point falls on deaf ears. No need for further soapboxing here. NVO (talk) 06:29, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. Then how about a clarification in order to make it when "Jewish" is being used in its religious context and when it's used in its ethnic context. SMP0328. (talk) 02:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree that a clarification in an article would be fine to show that the person is a Jew versus of the Jewish religion. The problem for deciding how to clarify that is that since, from around the beginning of the Christian religion until the babyboomer generation, it has been such a rare occasion for gentiles and Jews to marry/have children together during those 2000 years. (for further discussion on the history and why and references come to my talk page and I'll provide whatever needed) So being a Jew and being Jewish were one and the same for most people, except for apostates (people who converted to another religion) and their decendants. Benjamin Disraeli, PM of the Great Britain is a prime example of someone who is a Jew (or partly) but not one who has ever been Jewish in religion and for whom such a clarification is needed. Other prominent Jews who were not Jewish in religion would be Robert Moses and Lenin. I think to mention that all of these men have Jewish backgrounds is notable and important for their articles. Plus, most importantly, the main reason to include them is that- published material, in particular biographies, of these men and other "ethnic" Jews (versus Jews who practice Judaism) do make a mention of it and often delve into the family history of being Jewish and why the religion was dropped from the family's practices. Then we have people who were Jews by conversion but were born gentiles (which the Jewish religion states we must not treat or label any differently than those born Jewish) such as Sammy Davis, Jr and Madonna. But again, their conversion would be notable as converting is a notable event in someone's life, especially to a religion that in the last 2,000 years has not been active in looking for converts and at many times actively discouraged them. Whether a person is ethnically or religiously a Jew, most likely it will be notable based on the attention it receives in printed material, and that ultimately is what matters in being included in Wikipedia- it is notable, and it is properly cited. If those two criteria are met, then removing the info from an article is vandalism.Camelbinky (talk) 03:33, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Just because a reference to someone's religion or ethnicity appears in and receives "attention" in "printed material" makes it appropriate for inclusion in Wikipedia? That is news to me. Beyond that, I would say that the same objection I have raised to the practice here applies as well to other media, so the presence in other media and the "attention" received (however that is measured) is a poor criterion. There may be many things about an individual that appear in printed or other source material that are not relevant to an article about that person if the intent of the article is simply to accurately and completely record for Wikipedia readers the achievements for which that person is noted. One may find in "printed material" that Albert Einstein's cousin was a Berlin train conductor who loved lasagne. That does not establish it as appropriate for inclusion in a biography on Wikipedia of Einstein, no matter how much attention it may receive (and it may receive a lot of attention due to the conductor's cousin being a famous physicist). And if it were included, removing such irrelevant information is not vandalism. Having said that, I agree with you that Sammy Davis, Jr's conversion to Judaism was far from irrelevant. But I am not talking about those kinds of references.Roberterubin (talk) 04:23, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I am opposed to superfluous references to one's Jewish heritage in any context. Being Jewish comprises an ethnic identity and/or a religious affiliation. If nothing about either aspect is material to the achievements noted or being described, then it is unnecessary and irrelevant and should not be part of the article. The same thing, I suggest, applies to being Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, etc.Roberterubin (talk) 03:43, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Roberterubin has a valid point, although it's not easy to explain why. The way we deal with ethnic and religious backgrounds differs between different cultures.

(1) The US is an immigration country where for most people history doesn't reach far back. People like to trace their roots back to the actual immigrants.

(2) In Europe people tend to think much less about their ancestry. All those books about European family names are printed in America. There is no cut-off point to which you would trace back your ancestors. In Europe it's also not necessarily a good thing to know where your ancestors came from. And if you do, one being Jewish, or from a neighbouring country, is often no more interesting than one being from the other end of the country.

The German Ruhr area is full of descendants of coal miners who immigrated from Poland; so many that the most common Polish family names sound German to me even though I am not from the region. Yet you hear nothing about their Polish ancestors, and I doubt that many are aware of them. Until they try to get a job in Berlin, which has recent Polish immigration, and face discrimination or at least suspicious questions.

Many European societies, specifically French and German society work in a way that is very different from the US (and probably the Netherlands and the modern UK): You are either part of a dominating, ethnically (and in most regions religiously) homogeneous majority group, or you are part of a minority that is discriminated against.

(3) I believe in India, being Muslim or Hindu is for most people a very important part of their identity that pervades almost all of everyday life. In many respects people of different religions go their separate ways. The educated even use different scripts to write what is basically the same language, see Hindi and Urdu.

In these examples, (1) and (3) form opposite ends, at which it is appropriate to stress ethnic background. In the middle it's much more complicated. If I see something like the article Kurt Tucholsky, which calls him a "German-Jewish" writer, I get an immediate urge to "correct" it. The German, French, Italian, Dutch, Turkish, Portuguese, Swedish Wikipedias just call him German. The Spanish Wikipedia (and I think also the Polish Wikipedia, but I find it hard to parse Polish) is most precise, calling him German of Jewish descent. (There was no cherry-picking; I reported every page I looked at.) Tucholsky had Jewish parents, his father was a banker. He formally left the Jewish community in 1914 (aged 24) and became a Protestant in 1918. He was a socialist who wrote against the nazis from early on, but his work contains formulations about Jewish industrialists that are now classified as antisemitic. Calling him "German-Jewish" is very culturally insensitive. Hans Adler 08:16, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I think Roberterubin has a point, even if s/he hasn't really expressed it well. If someone is notable enough to have an article on wikipedia, we need to go into great detail why. Sometimes racial/religious identity is a big part of this, sometimes not so much, sometimes not at all. In the latter circumstance, "Should we mention religion/race/[insert demographic here]" is a very legitimate question. --I dream of horses (T) @ 18:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

One thing to consider is that these are biographies. Pick up any random biography from a nearby bookshelf and study the first couple of chapters - it will almost certainly talk about the person's background in mindlessly excessive detail, including the person's religion and ethnicity (or, in the case of Judaism, the crossover between the two). If Wikipedia wants to have biographies that are even remotely comparable to those turned out by the world's great publishing houses, we should also mention this.

The fact that you may not like it doesn't mean nobody will find it useful. I have been involved in numerous discussions of the "I heard X is <insert race / religion / sexual orientation, etc. here>. Is that true?" variety, and my first reaction is to Google it. Since Wikipedia usually comes top of the list, this is the website I usually check first. If it's not mentioned in the article, I suppose it is untrue. Really, in a way, this deliberate ommission of facts is misleading our readers (only very vaguely, but it is comparable to the "whole truth" people must tell in court, where the ommission of known pertinent facts can be considered perjury). Just my (rambling) two shiny pennies. Dendodge _T\^C 21:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree with Dendodge. In the US and many of the other larger industrialized English-speaking world (this being the English version of Wikipedia after-all), there seems to be a tendency to have as "default" anyone who's race and religion isnt listed categorized as white and Christian (in the back of our minds, even if we dont like to admit it). It is definitely needed to be stated in articles if the person is Black, Hispanic, Jewish, whatever. I find it disturbing that RobertRubin or whatever the user was, seems to have stated that it was ok for the Edison article to state his family was from Ireland and he always referred to himself as of Dutch heritage, because RR stated its where is family was from thereby its ok. How is that relevant, but someone being Jewish is not? Being Jewish is stating where your family is from. I'm sick of this idea being floated around that somehow being Jewish is just another White European ethnic/nationality no different than a decendant of Poles living in Germany. Over 70% of the DNA of the average Jew is Middle Eastern and not European. We arent just a subgroup of you people. Articles state whether a person was an American, Australian, etc, or in the case of William Shatner a Canadian who moved to the United States. How is the fact that he's Canadian relevant to his career in Hollywood and American TV? If an article is to state that someone is Black, Chinese, Arab, Iranian, Australian, Bantu, or Ethiopian whether it refers to the actual nationality or to their ancestry then you MUST include being Jewish as equal to any of those. Just because some anti-semitic users "see only Jewish articles" as violating THEIR OWN OPINIONS on notability doesnt mean we should be having this discussion and humoring them and allowing them to think they have supporters. That's how they operate. First comes the "well, they have a good point" suggestions for "improving" things and making things "fair for everyone", and yes, they start with small insignificant forums like Wikipedia, this isnt a case of "well, it's Wikipedia, what does it matter?", Wikipedia didnt exist 70 years ago, but social clubs and universities, ability to publish research material, use of libraries, books stating whether someone was Jewish or not censored of that material did exist back then and that was the first place they started. If Wikipedia existed 70 years ago this is one of those forums that they would have proposed the same idea Robertrubin is proposing today. They make it seem harmless and "fair", like they are trying to protect Jews and minorities. Trust me, that's how they operate.Camelbinky (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

"That's how THEY operate!!!". Who? Nazis whose entire mission is to scrub the idea that some Joe-nobody was Jewish? Yes, that sounds reasonable.

In some cases it isn't relevant who came from Canada before their acting career, unless that Canadian status stood out. Ditto, I'd say, with Jewishness. If it changed their life, list it. If not, like blood types, while it interests someone it isn't of a ton of relevance.

As I see it, the point would be to cut the reference to Jewish, Canadian, or Type-O, when it doesn't change the story. Obviously it changes many people's stories, but for many other it does not. If WP is not the place for everything then surely the call is to be made based on when it improves articles, not your religious sensibilities. If someone didn't self identify Jewish to call them that just artificially inflates religious significance ala Mormon post-death conversions.

The mere accident of someone's birth, if that is all that Canadian or Jewish is to them, is far different than a religion or ethnicity that guides their life. You're trying deliberately to conflate the two because it goes with your shrill cries of antisemitism. Get thee to relevancy. The over-labeling concern is equally valid for Hutu/Tutsi or any other non-racial but racially charged and over-attached labels. This is bigger than you! 74.198.49.199 (talk) 14:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

In addition to the points made by Doc Tropics and Hans Adler, I add the following: It has been asked several times by several editors in several places (including Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Miki Sawaguchi) why so many articles on anime characters, Japanese pop stars, and the like have their blood types listed in the lead section. The answer can in part be found in Blood types in Japanese culture. Not everyone's idea of what the defining characteristics of people are, is the same as one's own. Uncle G (talk) 15:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

No, but we don't put blood type for everyone just for potential Japanese interest, or Astrological signs, etc, except where relevant (ie, to the bio at hand). If someone believes they're OBneg (as a personality-type), or Taurus, it'll change their life, but if they don't believe in these things they're fluff.

A biography of Richard Feynman should mention he was Jewish because that fact changed his life (family, treatment in school) despite his lack of personal belief. But the bio probably shouldn't contain his astrological sign because I've never seen any mention it was relevant.

Largely it's the subject's own views that define what is important. Not what they would WANT to be labeled, but that they should be labeled with the things that defined them, and only their views determine if an accident of birth is central or inconsequential. 74.198.49.199 (talk) 14:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Strategic Planning

The Wikimedia Foundation has begun a year long phase of strategic planning. During this time of planning, members of the community have the opportunity to propose ideas, ask questions, and help to chart the future of the Foundation. In order to create as centralized an area as possible for these discussions, the Strategy Wiki has been launched. This wiki will provide an overview of the strategic planning process and ways to get involved, including just a few questions that everyone can answer. All ideas are welcome, and everyone is invited to participate.

Please take a few moments to check out the strategy wiki. It is being translated into as many languages as possible now; feel free to leave your messages in your native language and we will have them translated (but, in case of any doubt, let us know what language it is, if not english!).

All proposals for the Wikimedia Foundation may be left in any language as well.

Please, take the time to join in this exciting process. The importance of your participation can not be overstated.

--Philippe

(please cross-post widely and forgive those who do)

Nederlands

Our english wiki pages have many links to articles in the Netherlands wiki. The list at the top of the pages is titled "Languages". Accordin to List of languages by name there is no language "Nederlands". I believe the language to be "Dutch". Is "Nederlands" wrong or should the list title be "Countries"? -- SGBailey (talk) 09:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

No, it seems to be correct. The name of Dutch (the language) in Dutch itself is apparently "Nederlands". --Cybercobra (talk) 09:35, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The List of languages by name page explicitly states that these are names of other languages in English. However, names of other language Wikis are the names as used by speakers of the relevant language, not the English name. For instance you have the 'Español' wiki for Spanish etc. See also Names for the Dutch language EasyTarget (talk) 17:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Standards in the description of nationality

It grieves me with the discomfort perhaps only felt by the smaller partner that in accounts of the nationality of scientists who are my countrymen that I should find them continually described within Wikipedia as "British" - e.g. Kelvin, whereas English scientists e.g. Darwin are English. This is a significant part of the reason why when I travel abroad I am assumed to be English as my country's contribution to the world is not assumed to go beyond men in skirts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.96.153 (talk) 09:44, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I doubt the problem is widespread; feel free to be more specific with nationalities where you encounter generalities. But do be aware that in some cases, narrowing a figure's nationality down can be problematic; there may be discussion on the talk page you should review first. Powers ^T 12:53, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

There are all sorts of problems with defining nationality consistently & sensibly. I can go on at length if anyone really wants me to. Peter jackson (talk) 17:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Lists of names in other languages

Some articles list the names of their topic in various other languages. For example, Asparagus has this:

It is known in French and Dutch as asperge, in Italian as asparago (old Italian asparagio), in Portuguese as espargo hortense, in Spanish as espárrago, in German as Spargel, in Hungarian as spárga.

The Sanskrit name of Asparagus is Shatavari and it has been historically used in India as a part of Ayurvedic medicines.In Kannada, it is known as Ashadhi, Majjigegadde or Sipariberuballi.

And our article Huntsmen (military) informs the reader that

Huntsmen are called chasseurs in French, cazadores in Spanish, Jäger in German and caçadores in Portuguese.

What is the use of that? Wikipedia is not a multilingual dictionary, and the selection of languages seems quite arbitrary; why not extend the Asparagus list with "in Basque as zainzuri, in Chinese as 芦笋, in Czech as chřest lékařský, in Erzya as ведунтикше, in Greek as σπαράγγι, in Japanese as アスパラガス, in Lithuanian as vaistinis smidras, in Persian as مارچوبه, in Turkish as kuşkonmaz, in Upper Sorbian as prawy hromak, and in Urdu as ہلیون", and the Huntsmen list with: "jægersoldater in Danish, jagers in Dutch, jeger in Norwegian, szaserzy in Polish, vânători in Romanian, cazadores in Spanish, and jägare in Swedish" – which could probably be expanded with dozens of other languages that have words for these concepts. And then, why not list the word for "shoe" in multiple languages in the article Shoe, and so on?

For some examples of articles with quite extensive lists, see At sign#"Commercial at" in other languages, Evil eye#Names in various languages, and Mille-feuille#Alternative names. Such enumerations are typically unsourced and, once established, attract additions (possibly based on "original research", like my additions for names for asparagus and huntsmen above).

Question: Is there some Wikipedia rule or guideline explicitly discouraging this kind of lists? If not, should there be?  --Lambiam 15:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

This doesn't always apply, but in some cases, it's giving information about the etymology of the word. Irbisgreif (talk) 17:12, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you're thinking of something like that the English word "marmalade" is borrowed (with a small alteration) from French marmelade, which came from Portuguese marmelada, derived from the root marmelo ("quince"), which comes from Latin melimelum, which took the name from Greek μελίμηλον (literally "honey apple"). (This is the longest etymological chain I could find.) That is a rather different situation than giving translations into as many languages as you can find, such as "marmalade is marmelada in Bosnian and Croatian, marmeláda in Czech, marmelade in Danish, Dutch and German, marmelado in Esperanto, marmellata in Italian", and so on, which is what this is about.  --Lambiam 13:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The names of things in foreign languages can be encyclopedic topics, as in Names of Germany, so lists of random names in foreign languages are okay if they have encyclopedic commentary. Your asparagus example does not seem to fall into the "encyclopedic" but mostly in the "dictionary" category. Kusma (talk) 21:03, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Système International d'Unités

why it is not used? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.218.157.173 (talk) 13:43, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

If we may infer that your question is "Why doesn't Wikipedia always use SI units in its articles?", then the answer is thus: mostly, SI units are preferred. However, we can't force contributors unfamiliar with SI units to use them. Sometimes, for example, source material uses non-SI units - either archaic ones, or modern ones. Anyhow, the full list of exceptions and commentary is at Wikipedia:MOSNUM#Which units to use to browse at your leisure. - Jarry1250 ^{[ In the UK? Sign the petition! ]} 14:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

yes, that is exactly what i am asking. thank you, i will read it and i will return if i find something that can be improved.

i am in Greece. if i was in the UK i would sign the petition immediately. --88.218.157.173 (talk) 17:59, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

About template Welcome

Hello! I see that nobody took note at my call. Apart of this thing I think that the sentence Thank you for your contributions from the template Welcome is not necessary, because are new users who haven`t contribs but they should be encountered.--Bourge^talk 14:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

There have been many discussions about this. I personally prefer human welcomes (usually also saying a word or two about what people did) to bot-generated ones. Bot-generated welcomes also destroy the useful "talk page is a red link" information. Kusma (talk) 14:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I didn`t speak about a bot, I spoke about a extension Media Wiki hear. I prefer human welcomes too, but Welcoming committee has a lot of members and majority of them don`t attend with welcoming, I am in Welcoming comittee too and I encountered certain new users, but on en.wp new users appears massif and a man can`t encounter them all, if Welcoming comittee would attend with welcoming aren`t problems, but in the situation in who is en.wp now an extension Media Wiki or even a bot can solve this problem.--Bourge^talk 16:20, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

There's little point in welcoming people who haven't edited yet (and it can be bad for various reasons, one of them being that it makes their talk pages blue instead of red). I generally think that welcoming people that you have no connection with is pointless. Welcomes by people interested in the same subject area as you give you a useful point of contact, but welcoming for the sake of welcoming isn't all that useful. Just my opinion, of course. Kusma (talk) 16:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

If I encounter somebody with a redlinked talk page while vandal fighting, I'll give them a welcome template. A lot of times they need help, and I'm willing to do that. It gives me warm fuzzies inside, and opening the door for help is one step to prevent the new user from being mistaken for a vandal.

Other than that, no, I don't go out of my way to welcome new users. A lot of times, people don't edit after getting a screen name.I dream of horses (T) @ 01:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation is not a search engine

Could someone look at [1] and see if the user has a valid concern?Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 18:58, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

• The concern being expressed (that a disambiguation page for Stacey should not contain long lists of people with the given name or surname Stacey, unless they are commonly referred to as just Stacey) is actually entirely consistent with what's written in both the Manual of Style and WP:DAB. It's just one of the most-often-ignored rules of disambiguation page formatting. The solution is usually to create a spin-off at, in this case, Stacey (given name) and/or Stacey (surname) as necessary, and link to those name articles from the disambiguation page at Stacey. (All the content currently on the dab page about the history of the name should also be at a name page, and not on a disambiguation page.) Propaniac (talk) 19:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

So this [2] and [3] are fine and I should have left them alone? And looking at the talk page again, how is the best way to address my concern?Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Since it appears to me that no change in any policy is called for (unless I'm wrong), I'm going to respond further at Talk:Stacey. Propaniac (talk) 23:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I was trying to clarify current policy. I had seen articles do things wrong and assumed they were done right.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 18:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

What is defines a topic as being the "Primary Topic"

I have taken a look at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, but it redirects to a section entitled "Is there a primary topic?" Sadly, the section does not list what criteria/guidelines are followed in determining what a primary topic is. Could someone please list the criteria/guidelines for determining what makes a topic primary? (See Talk:Bing#Requested move for additional discussion).

My main concern lies in that the current explanation (which is quite poor) leaves great room for ambiguity and hence makes coming to a clear cut answer quite difficult.Smallman12q (talk) 02:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is difficult - I don't think it's possible to state precise criteria. Basically you have to decide what will be best for readers - how likely is it that they will be looking for the various topics, how easy it will be to get from a main topic to a similarly-named related topic, and so on. If there is one topic that stands out as more likely to be looked up under that name than any of the others, then it should be the primary topic. But if it's a close call, it doesn't really matter that much which way the decision goes.--Kotniski (talk) 08:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Well my concern lies with the fact that it's highly opinion based. An article can get significantly more page views (ie. Bing (search engine), more commercial advertising, and yet it wouldn't qualify under other perople's perception of the primary topic. Now this isn't to say that they aren't entitled to their own opinions, but its nice to have some guidelines on which to base those opinions rather than just one's self.Smallman12q (talk) 13:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

"Primary topic" is necessarily a subjective designation. To use your example, when trying to determine the "primary topic" for Bing, I ask myself the following question : Are more people looking for any one instance of Bing more than the rest? If so, it is the primary topic; if not, there is no primary topic. Essentially we are trying to reduce the amount of work any one reader has to go through to get to their article. With the current setup, a large amount of readers who are looking for Bing (search engine) must "waste a click" by going through Bing first. If the search engine was at Bing, then a large amount of readers who are looking for some other Bing must "waste two clicks" by going to the disambiguation page and then to their intended target. Unfortunately either setup will inconvenience some readers, and the question that you must ask yourself is which setup results in the least amount of overall convenience. At least, that is how I would approach the problem. Shereth 13:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• • Comment I've put up a chart illustrating at Talk:Bing#Discussion showing how many page views Bing recieved prior to the search engine, and then afterwards. Before it got about 3k page views a month, now it gets 50k+ page views per month. For 47k+ page views, people are having to go through that extra click=P.Smallman12q (talk) 19:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Then point that out at the relevant discussion. It certainly seems a strong point in your favor, but at the same time I can see how another editor may counter that the traffic has declined by 50% in the last month alone and that in short order it is likely to settle back to a lower level again. There certainly are valid arguments on both sides of the discussion, and that is (in part) why it is sometimes preferable to leave things up to the judgement of the editors rather than a formulaic set of criteria. I am intentionally not taking sides with regards to Bing because that should be decided on its talk page and not here. Shereth 20:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the current explanation is "poor", but it isn't doing what you want it to. It provides the ideal and some tools for editors to use in pursuit of it. The guidance is, as Shereth said, necessarily subjective, and the final determination is left to the consensus at the individual topics. These may or may not be consistent with other topics, but I don't think that's a threat to Wikipedia. In addition to "Bing", this has also come up recently with "James Stewart" and "Peer-to-peer". See WT:D#Primary topic uber alles and WT:D#Determining primary topic, but here's one of my contributions to those discussions: "There are competing goals for primary topic. Navigational (whichever arrangement yields the fewest clicks for the total audience is best) and content (whichever article seems to fit best as the topic one would expect an encyclopedia to have at the name should go at the name). Sometimes those goals line up and everyone's happy. Other times they clash. The guidelines don't specify one goal over the other because, AFAIK, there isn't consensus, so the consensus-formation is left to the individual pages. It may be time to pick one though." -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

If there isn't consensus, then it doesn't belong in a guideline. It's policy that local consensus cannot override widespread consensus. It's also policy that policies and guidelines represent widespread consensus. The purpose is to resolve conflict. This means that it's already time to lay out what the consensus is. If I go out and provide clear evidence that when given a disambiguation page, people prefer A over B, and the opposing side only gives a) prescriptivist 'this is what it really means' arguments and b) pleas that suggest the guideline doesn't really apply here, I don't get steamrolled by local consensus. The guideline should clearly state what is acceptable, what the criteria are, etc.    M   22:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

What's in the guideline has consensus. The stuff that doesn't have consensus, that you say doesn't belong in a guideline, isn't in the guideline: there is no hard-and-fast specification of exactly what formulaic approach will yield the primary topic. The guidelines should absolutely reflect consensus, and so far there has been no consensus that one formula or another will yield the primary topic in all cases, so the preceding consensus (let each base name page determine its own primary topic by consensus of the concerned editors) has so far prevailed. If there is consensus for one way or another to determine primary topic in the general case, then we should update the guidelines. OTOH, the guidelines do clearly state what is acceptable: "When there is a well-known primary topic for an ambiguous term, name or phrase, much more used than any other topic covered in Wikipedia to which the same word(s) may also refer, then that term or phrase should either be used for the title of the article on that topic or redirect to that article." How are you getting steamrolled by that? -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

While we're on the topic, there's a dispute over what the primary topic of "Ubuntu" is. As Ubuntu has been about the operating system for years, most incoming links refer to the OS. However, there was a recent move of the OS article to Ubuntu (operating system), leaving an ongoing dispute over what the primary topic is that the redirect at Ubuntu should point to. There's an RFC running at Talk:Ubuntu#RFC: Where should the redirect point?, but guidance on the subject in general would be gratefully accepted. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:33, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

After reading the discussion at WT:D#Determining primary topic, I've realized that I am not the only one who notices the ambiguity regarding what makes a topic primary as per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. It's quite clear(at least to me) that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC needs some editing.Smallman12q (talk) 19:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Only if there is a need to force a consistency on the determination of primary topics. Right now, the guidelines unambiguously leave the determination of the primary topic to the editors of the individual pages. There's nothing to point to in the guidelines and say "Aha! Applying the guidelines' formula X to the (incoming links, hit counts, Google searches, other input) means that so-and-so is the primary topic!". The guidelines aren't that concrete, but they aren't ambiguous. I don't know if they need to be made more concrete; there's an awful lot of specifics in them already, and a lot of us in the project going about our OCD way applying those specifics to the mass of dab pages (slowly, since there are a lot of them), and periodically stepping into drama when the individual page editors/watchers aren't familiar with (or disagree with) the guidelines. Making this concrete might make that more common. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly endorse this. I had to bring this up when I tried to state that the primary topic for peer-to-peer was not the architectural framework. My position was that many if not most average readers saw peer-to-peer as "oh yeah, like file sharing, right?". I was shot down by semantic arguments over what p2p really means and an argument that a hatnote works just fine (which is rejected by the guideline). This despite a bunch of stats that I pulled out indicating that readers actually chose file sharing more often than the architecture when presented with a disambig page. But no, discussion closed, despite my invocation of guideline, because another voter changed their vote (and this indicates that at least someone had a chance to read through things, and if they changed their mind, then this is yet another task checked off of the list). Well thanks a lot WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, I knew I shouldn't have counted on on you to help resolve this! (Is what I yelled when this happened.) So yeah, clear that darn thing up ;)    M   19:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Primary topics need to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Whether or not they are is something else entirely.

Maybe we need to have to make WP:PRIMARYTOPIC more strongly stated? Like, "If you are wrong in finding the primary topic, then more people will waste their finding the article they want?" I dream of horses (T) @ 00:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

So...can someone perhaps clarify what the criteria are(to make it less subjective)? I'm asking that the section be reworded to reflect the weight of various criteria that would better assist in creating a consensus.Smallman12q (talk) 18:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

AfD automation?

I was looking at the AfD_in_3_steps page (which is not 3 steps, but it was a valiant effort), and it seems that this can be reduced to a single actual step:

1. Add {{subst:afd|Detailed reason for deletion|U}}, where U should be replaced by blah blah.

And then, a bot takes care of everything else. Thoughts?    M   02:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support-I do support a bot(especially when it comes to notifying folks their page is getting deleted). For now I use WP:twinkle.Smallman12q (talk) 03:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support Nifty idea! I dream of horses (T) @ 00:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
• This was proposed recently at WP:Village pump (proposals)/Archive48#Articles for Deletion needs more automation; apparently it's somewhat of a perennial proposal. The notification bot was approved and is running. Flatscan (talk) 03:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

RfC on Template:Policy

Fresh eyes would be appreciated at Template talk:Policy#RfC: Changes made should reflect consensus. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 03:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Comment on Infopage explanation

I have created an infopage to help explain what an infopage is and how they differ from guidelines, policies, and essays. It can be reviewed at User:Smallman12q/Infopage (it's in userspace for now) and commented at User_talk:Smallman12q/Infopage. Thanks. Smallman12q (talk) 20:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Article titles

I often want to copy both the main article and the discussion page (maybe the history page too) but they all come down with different titles.

I think they should all begin with the same title as the main article. Instead of, for example,

No True Scotsman -- Wikipedia

and

Talk/No true Scotsman

Better: No True Scotsman -- Talk

So they will be shown together on my disk, instead of the main article in the Ns and the talk page in the Ts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.203.102 (talk) 20:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

It would be easier for you to write a macro to change the titles to suit yourself, than for wikipedia to change its naming convention to suit your application. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Name/Talk clearly is better, as 2009-08-05 is better than 08-05-2009. Better enough to make the switch, that depends. But it certainly deserves to be noted so that when it is easy people don't make the same mistake. Dates/titles that sort appropriately in a list are an important UI feature and shouldn't be ignored. Unsigned, or Tagish, do either of you have an idea of the technical change required, or the problems this would cause elsewhere? 74.198.49.199 (talk) 15:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

You say "titles that sort appropriately in a list are an important UI feature " ... but "appropriately" depends on circumstances. How many users wish to list articles and talk pages in an undifferentiated list, versus how many want to distinguish between talk and article. Sorry, I'm simply not buying into the notion that foo bar - talk is better than talk:foo bar. Different, yes. Useful in a minority of applications, yes. A pain in other applications, yes. It is probably instructive, also, to look at Wikipedia:Namespace, which explains the various wikipedia namespaces. Altering the way namespaces work and are parsed is not a thing to be done lightly, and should only be done with just cause. I do not see that we have such a cause yet. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Shekley external links

The estate of a writer with alot of books have recently build a new offical homepage. I was wanting to change all the external links to everything that is associated to this writer. Is this okay? I got a warning message telling me I was changing too many links. If I continue to change the offical web page in each wiki page associated to him, will there be undesirable consequences? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbballoch (talk • contribs) 22:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I think it is appropriate to link to that site from the Robert Sheckley page, but not from each of Sheckley's works. Advice is offered at Wikipedia:External links. In short, a website linked to from an article should offer some additional information about the subject of the article beyind that held in the article. In the case of Sheckley's website, it does not do this. The books have very short write-ups on the Sheckley site, containing no new information. Hope this helps. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that it help out if you explain, either in your edit summary or the articles' talk page just what you are doing. I dream of horses (T) @ 00:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Allowing Youtube to source vocal ranges

I personally find it very usual to allow Youtube to be used as a source to determine a singer's vocal range.

Please elaborate--Greg D. Barnes (talk) 22:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

If you mean deciding on the range by observing the video, that would probably be counted as original research. If you mean as a documented example of what the singer has performed, that's different, but even then if the range is notable enough for the article, then sources should mention it, I'd think. Unless I'm totally missing something here... Melodia Chaconne (talk) 00:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Youtube is mostly copyvio. We can host both audio and video locally. If its free, host it here. if not, then mention it in text, as it would never pass fair use. Copyright violations don't get more proper simply because they are on a different site. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 00:20, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I know nothing of this issue other than the observation that YouTube is, in fact, a load of copyvio and silly videos. I dream of horses (T) @ 00:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Johnny. Enigma^msg 05:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Obviously he's not talking about simply observing a video of a singer on youtube and using that to cite a singer's vocal range. No, there are a good supply of videos on youtube documenting singers' vocal ranges. They're usually pretty reliable, but occasionally you'll find one that's horribly inaccurate (like this one), so I recommend checking each one in advance to make sure all the material is matched to the correct pitches.

Ultimately, though, I can't think of a better way to cite a singer's vocal range. Any other reference you may be able to find will likely only offer a dry statement of what the singer's range is, and we just have to assume that that's true. With YouTube, there's actual audio to back up the statements. Also, if the information is flawed, someone can easily notice how the notes in the video don't match up to what the information says they are, so under those circumstances, the link can be removed, or something more accurate can be looked for. Does this make sense?

--Rock Soldier (talk) 02:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

You tube videos are self published and easily doctored. So while a published description of the range may be a "dry statement", it is verifiable. -- The Red Pen of Doom 03:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I have seen these video links used as references for a vocal range and supposed high-note and the reader was supposedly expected to watch the video and hear it for themselves. The video never stated a vocal range or a high note. It was up to the reader to decide what they heard. This is 100% pure original research and does not satisfy WP:V in any way. And, as mentioned, Youtube is a haven for copyvio and Wikipedia's WP:EL policy clearly states NOT to link to an external website hosting potential copyvio material. Youtube should never be used as a source for vocal range, or anything else here. Wether B (talk) 10:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

As per the above 'original research' and 'copyright' comments... Youtube should not be used. The Real Libs-speak politely 12:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that a Youtube video will practically never be an acceptable source at this time, it's no more completely forbidden than other self-published sources. Your characterization of WP:EL is also inaccurate: there is no ban there on all links to a site if copyright-violating material exists somewhere on the site (otherwise links to Wikipedia itself would be forbidden!), just a ban on linking to the copyright-violating material itself; the spirit of this would also include a link such as "Available from http://www.example.org/, search there to find it". It even explicitly states that there is no blanket ban on linking to Youtube.

You also seem to be confusing the use of a primary source with "original research": if a reliable, non-copyright-infringement video shows the singer hitting a note, it's not original research to say so any more than it's original research to refer to a photograph of brown cows to say "some cows are brown" or to refer to the first and second editions of a book to say that some text was changed in the later edition. Anomie⚔ 12:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

A cow being brown is an observation anyone can make. Extrapolating a vocal range based on a video is a bit more complex and doesn't fall into the "obvious fact" situation. Not to mention, who's to say that one excerpt is the entirety of their range? (though I've never heard of these videos, so I dunno how much work goes into them. They surely fail WP:RS though). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I see the blurry line here - the real issue is that we are allowing the editor to do the 'original research' of deciding what note it is that the singer is hitting. While this may seem easy to some of us, I have seen people on wikipedia screwing up fairly simple musical things in the past. That's why it would be better to have a source that says, literally, what notes the singer can hit. If it's an obscure singer with a remarkable vocal range, though, (say Joe Yamanaka), then it's hard to decide which makes more sense - not having the information at all, or potentially having misinterpreted information. Of course, that's always true with wikipedia - that's why we have multiple editors per article - to correct errors. Luminifer (talk) 16:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9RkfEm2yCM

Here is an example of one of the "vocal range" videos I refer to. It's not just some video that has a singer hitting a certain note, it's selectively composed of passages in songs demonstrating the singer's range, and in the info section, it gives the pitches for those notes, so that it's not just "up to the reader to decide what note the singer is hitting".

Like I said before, I think that this is the best way to cite a singer's range, as it offers a written verdict of what the singer's range is, and audio clips of the singer exercising that range to back up that verdict. I don't know of any other source that can offer the latter. In fact, without the aid of these videos, I've seen people vastly overestimate singers' ranges (there are places that say Ronnie James Dio has a five and a half octave range, when he really only has three, and another half in falsetto). The truth is that in almost any other place you look on the internet, the lack of audio to back-up the people's estimates of singers' ranges will almost guarantee inaccuracy. I have yet to find one non-youtube source that accurately cites a singer's range, except perhaps some of the most famous ones like Freddie Mercury. If you know of some, please, by all means use them.

--Rock Soldier (talk) 19:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you to a great extent - I don't think there should be a policy AGAINST use of these videos.. but it would be easy for someone to pick on the reputability of the interpretation of that video that's in the description: for instance, "The full 4 octave scale by Todd!! C2 to C6! It gets very thin at the end, I think an A1-A5 would suit Todd better." -- I listened to this segment, and it's not a scale, it's just going gradually from one note to the other, without hitting each note in the scale. Again, I have no problem with allowing these sorts of things, but they probably will fail wikipedia's reputability criteria, no? What's to stop you yourself from creating one of these videos, then "referencing" it as an independant source? Luminifer (talk) 19:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of that issue, and I gave an example above of one video that's very inaccurate. However, like I said, a great benefit of youtube is that there's audio to source the claims that are being made. Thus, if you're thinking of adding a video to cite a singer's range, you can easily check the audio by playing the notes that the info section offers on a piano or online tuner, and see if they match up. There most certainly will be some cases when they don't match up, and it's those sorts of videos that shouldn't be cited, as they are obviously unreliable.

In the video that I gave above, the "scale" is simply a word being used to describe what the voice is doing in that clip. If the traditional definition of a scale is a climb from one note to the next with a break in between, then this obviously does not match that definition. Perhaps you could call it some sort of chromatic slide? I'm not sure. It's not that relevant, though. The bottom line is that the video accurately showcases the singer's range.

--Rock Soldier (talk) 03:24, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Is it live, or is it Auto-Tune? (Cf. Nova Science Now, 30 June 2009) ~ Ningauble (talk) 23:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Could you rephrase that, please? I don't entirely understand what you mean.

--Rock Soldier (talk) 02:16, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I apologize for the drive-by shooting, and will elaborate on the intended target. As noted in the piece cited above, artificial pitch adjustment has come a long way since Alvin and the Chipmunks. In the digital era there is a widespread practice of manipulating vocal pitch in commercial recordings and even in live performances. (It is hard to say how widespread because it is not ordinarily disclosed.) Therefore, I do not consider sampling recordings to be a reliable way to ascertain a performer's vocal range, unless the original research is done by an authoritative source possessing technical information about the production and provenance of the recordings. It is about like using Youtube video to determine whether someone is a natural blonde—only her sound engineer knows for sure. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

This all sounds the very model of original research to me "you could play it on a piano to check"... --Cameron Scott (talk) 16:52, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia - Metamorphosis from Utopia to Bureaucratic Stasis

The editors at Wikipedia have taken control, and that is the end. Sorry. But study of utopias show they always fail. Que sara sara.

The point of data is data, not style sheets or adherence to yet more stringent article sub-heading indentation conventions. Or whether something ought to be capitalized in the middle of a sentence not. Sloppy good data is better than immaculately formatted no data.

The hard part is gathering the data, the easy part is editing and formatting. So Wikipedia is now chock full of editors ready to pounce and make sure nothing, NOTHING, can possibly pass their stringent review without getting dinged. Criticism is always easier than creation of new works.

All this effort at "clean up"? Should have been spent gathering more data.

So most folks now are scared of adding anything new to Wikipedia. It is just going to get critized and most likely deleted. Wikipedia descends into a static reference of sorts, and folks go back to Google.

Google indexes without judgement. Very fair. A lot of crap in searches, but nothing gets left behind. Give me freedom and fair over oppressive negativism anyday.

So that is my two cents. Feel free to criticize and delete. Because for sure there is some obscure formatting stylistic convention that I have violated here that is just insufferable to the Lords of Wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oracle2universe (talk • contribs) 00:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: this is the very first edit for their username. --Cybercobra (talk) 02:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

That's not very relevant, it only goes to make you look childish. People are always encouraged to create an account, even just to comment. 74.198.49.199 (talk) 15:12, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It is not a very impressive argument; and if only equal care and attention has been given by the poster when submitting "data" to wikipedia, I'm unsurprised that the poster's nose is out of joint. For a more considered version, check out the New Scientist's After the boom, is Wikipedia heading for bust?. (And the answer to NS is, "err, no." --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Trying to make a WP:POINT? Irbisgreif (talk) 15:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I am rather curious to know which article was deleted to lead to these complaints. As it is, there is absolutely nothing actionable here, so really, the only response I can add is "Umm, ok?" Resolute 16:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Irbisgreif - how is this disruptive? Yes, they are trying to make a point, but not a WP:POINT. That shortcut should be deleted given how often it is misused; it's only a bad thing to disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point, not to make a point by discussing it calmly, whether you believe it to be valid or not. Discussing issues is a good thing! – Toon 16:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah, but is this a policy issue? Or is it just someone trying to use the policy discussion area as a soapbox? Irbisgreif (talk) 18:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Although I find the use of capitalised links very irritating, since your usage of such is the (sub)topic here, I have to ask whether your question was you know, that one. Since discussing such issues is what the village pumps are for, I think rather than worrying about whether a request is placed in the correct section, we should just get on with the issue at hand. Questioning a user's motives isn't helpful, especially when done in an indirect way which will only be understood by the regulars, as is the case with WP:ALLCAPS. This user has found something that they think is bad for WP and they aren't bitching about it off-site; they brought it to a community discussion boards to try and get something done about it. We would do well to be more receptive to criticism on this project, in my honest opinion. – Toon 19:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Is it really needed to assume good faith in this case? This editor made an account, then immediately navigated to a large public area and posted a nearly incoherent rant on how bad Wikipedia is. He has, in essence, assumed bad faith on the part of every editor. Irbisgreif (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Should have been spent gathering more data - People work on whatever they want to work on. After nearly 3 million articles, we're about at the point where we're out of new topics that the majority of people care enough about to write about, so we focus on improving existing content. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an aggregation service or a search engine, we should definitely try to be more than a place to dump "data." We should strive to look better than some random geocities website. In any case, any real message you may have is just getting lost in the dramatics and rants. Mr.Z-man 18:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• I think this can be summed up as a request for change in policy. For example, something like "changes should not be reverted if they are needy rather than bad (see Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol), they should instead be fixed". I watch a lot of pages, and I believe that this _is_ an ongoing problem - not because of current wikipedia policy saying you need to do it, but because maybe it should prevent things like this. By limiting the contribution to wikipedia to those from people who already know the ropes, we are limiting the selection of users who can contribute - which is exactly not the point. (examples: I've seen good edits made by foreign languge editors removed just because of the grammar/formatting. I've seen verifiable facts removed because the anon editor didn't know how to find a reference - when really, they should have been just tagged with citation needed). Luminifer (talk) 18:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

• Why was this archived right after I stated how this is actually a badly-phrased request for policy change? Luminifer (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree whoever archived it acted in bad-faith when archiving the thread. Just because you disagree with the motives an editor had when starting a thread does not mean it gets filed away, in this case it opened a new parallel discussion when Luminifer made his comment. Discussion was not closed nor was the issue settled. Yes, the poster who started this thread was a little insane probably, but others like Toon05 showed a willingness and interest in continuing a thread along more sane thought. I dont want this to now start into a fight with that editor over whether or not it should have been archived, it simply shouldnt have been, if they want to argue too bad because I wont respond, and neither should anyone else in sticking up for them or for me, since this is not the forum to have that discussion as this is the Village Pump (policy) and not the "I disagree with you thinking I did something wrong forum". My talk page isnt the forum either btw, so until such a forum exists, dont bother responding or trying to defend yourself.

As for this topic, which I agree with Luminifer and encourage everyone to read his post and that of Toon05 in the now archived section. The verifiability policy does in fact state that it is common courtesy for a reviewer/editor to take time and look for a source FIRST before removing a non-cited fact. Editors who simply remove without researching may not be lazy, they may just be busy. That is why we have citation needed templates, more editors need to be "taught" to use these instead of simply removing information UNLESS that information is in fact vandalism, a copy-vio problem, outright false, libel, or dangerous in some other manner.Camelbinky (talk) 20:32, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your response! I hadn't realized that the policy really explicitly stated what you just said - that editors should not remove content without researching. Would you mind showing where it's stated? That would be very helpful (and maybe then we don't need to discuss actual policy so much as to ask why it's not being followed...). Luminifer (talk) 20:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

While I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any of you, one factor that must be taken into consideration is this category here. Apparently, we have over 190,000 articles with unsourced statements: some as a result of people using {{fact}} as a get-out clause^{[citation needed]} ;) – B.hotep •talk• 20:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

190k out of how many total articles? I think adding the CN or FACT tag (they're the same, right? I noticed they get autochanged to the same thing, anyway) is not problematic - it proves that wikipedia is a "live" organism, so to speak, and alerts anyone who comes across an article and is actually doing research to things that might or might not be true. Indeed, those users, upon seeing that little bracketed phrase might do the research themself, and then fix the article one way or the other. In other words, I don't see this as a problem - this seems to be how it's supposed to work! Luminifer (talk) 21:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I must clarify that while the policy does state it is "common courtesy" to research for a source oneself before removing information, it does not state that one MUST, it simply a suggestion to keep reviewers from pissing off editors. Here is the quote from WP:Verifiability-

Any material lacking a reliable source may be removed, but how quickly this should happen depends on the material in question and the overall state of the article. Editors might object if you remove material without giving them enough time to provide references, especially in an underdeveloped article. It has always been good practice to make reasonable efforts to find sources oneself that support such material, and cite them.Camelbinky (talk) 21:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

So, does the question become "what do we do when editors repeatedly do not follow 'good practice' and/or alienate new users?" Luminifer (talk) 04:12, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Since there are objections to the archiving (and the archiver has not joined in the discussion), I've un-archived it. The original post may have been naive, but it's not incoherent as has been suggested, and it's the sort of first impression that many outsiders probably get out of Wikipedia, which is probably why many have responded. No need to archive it. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 23:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I think policy does say you can delete things that are simply wrong, especially in BLP. Peter jackson (talk) 17:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I copy-pasted the relevant section from policy in a previous post, it's the most important aspect you need to know when reviewing, tagging, or removing. Be courteous, considerate, and do some work on your own end. If the info is "simply wrong" as you state, then note that in your edit summary with a reference on your own end. An editor who removes info because THEY simply think it is wrong is doing no different than the person who put it in without a reference. If an editor thinks info is wrong, supply the source that states it is. Otherwise we have two editors who each have no sources, one saying it is fact and one saying it isnt. Unless the info is damaging, copy-vio, libel, or otherwise dangerous to Wikipedia or an individual then there is no problem in keeping the info until consensus can be reached on the talk page or a relevant noticeboard. The reason I say keep the info (if not dangerous) is that then newcomers to the discussion can see the "offending" information in the correct context themselves instead of relying on the opinions stated by the different sides in the discussion. I dont think this is unreasonably to ask of reviewers. It is common sense and common courtesy and should be done because it is so, does not need to be policy.Camelbinky (talk) 00:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia Policy Interlingual Coordination

Hi, currently, I participate a process to translate Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and import that to JaWp. Since WP:NOT is a Global Principle according to the right box of the page, I naturally insist to import this document as it is without modifications, at least without major modifications for basic key concepts such as Wikipedia:Consensus.

In a final phase to fix the final translated version, a user appeared and claimed that he cannot agree to apply WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY to JaWp, since it's not properly to reflect the current JaWp manner, etc.(dunno what exactly he intends to mean, but the bottom line is he doesn't agree to import these 2 sections of WP:NOT).

Obviously, WP:NOTDEMOCRACY and WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY includes a significant Wp Global Principe - Wikipedia:Consensus, so I explained him that WP:NOT is not a mere policies but a Global Princile including singificant Wp concpet. Basically, he won't listen claiming JaWp is somewhat independent of EnWp, and this discussion is still open in JaWp.

Another user suggested me to ask an official statement from Wikimedia Foundation, and I also think it would be better to clear how internlingual cordination of Wikipedia Policy works.

I checked Interlingual_coordination page of wikimedia, but found the forum is a bit deserted, and less chance to have a quick reply. So, is there anyone here who knows well about this topic, and could you advise where to start to make this clear. Thank you. --Wp99 (talk) 23:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

If there is only one user objecting I'd suggest just opening the debate to a wider audience on JaWp first, if he rely think it's a democracy he can't complain if he's in the minority then ;) Other than that maybe try to Foundation-l mailing lits. --Sherool (talk) 02:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That is true, howerver, since I feel it's so obvious, I'd like to close such a debate in earlier stage with an authorized proof without bothering the community. More over, I think what we need is not really JaWp local agreement but the official policy of interlingual cordination.

I'd like to wait further advice here, but I will try Foundation-l mailing list.--Wp99 (talk) 04:40, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Each wiki sets its own rules, guidelines, consensus, or what have you. Simply translating from one to the other does not a policy make. (But it may yet be useful to do!)

I'd love to see some pages from jawiki ... :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

familiy name : George Roy Hill

here we can see that george roy hill (movie director) is sorted under "H" : wiki link

in the article, we can read "He was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota, to George Roy and Helen Frances Owens Hill" so his father's name was roy : shouldn't he be sorted under "R" ? kernitou talk 07:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the article means that his father was also George Roy Hill; it's the same structure as saying "He was born to George and Helen Hill," but with middle names included as well. The article refers to him as Hill throughout. Propaniac (talk) 12:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

ok, sounds logical now - thanks kernitou talk 14:11, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Descriptive and prescriptive: fresh input needed

Fresh eyes should be appreciated at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Descriptive not prescriptive --> descriptive as well as prescriptive. Should WP:NOT say the policies are "descriptive, not prescriptive" or "descriptive as well as prescriptive"? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 09:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

is off-wiki canvassing against policy?

is off-wiki canvassing against policy? should it be if the canvassing is for a conroversial article, where people were links sites that have now been added to badsites?
Where should I report it, and what happens? Remember Civility (talk) 16:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to reply without knowing details on what the article is about, or what actions are being canvassed. If people are being asked to add links that are against policy, there's nothing we can do about it, and probably can't prove that the canvasser is the same person as any given Wikipedia user, especially since it sounds like there is more than one person involved. The best thing to do is keep reverting changes when they are wrong, and request article protection if editing gets out of hand. This kind of thing happens a lot on controversial articles, but we deal with it. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 21:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

That behavior goes against the sentiment of WP:MEAT. It can be reported to WP:ANI like other policy violations. —Ost (talk) 21:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Discussion regarding per station TV schedules and WP:NOT

A discussion regarding per station TV schedules and WP:NOT has begun at Wikipedia_talk:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Per_station_television_schedules. Your input would be welcome. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 22:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Are these topics notable enough?

I want to check if you all think these subjects meet notability standards before working them up. Would lists for the show Jeopardy! be considered notable? Specifically, List of Jeopardy! champions with over $50,000 in prizes (unsure on name, [4]), List of largest single-day Jeopardy! winnings ([5]), and lists for the Tournament of Champions and Teen/College championships? The show is quite notable and while few contestants are notable besides Ken Jennings it provides pretty significant EV on the show (even if most contestants are unlinked). Staxringold _talk^contribs 23:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• Note, the Championship lists already exist, they're just large, unsplit, bulky tables in the sub-articles. Staxringold _talk^contribs 23:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

If they already exist within an article, but are unwieldy, then they are just the type of article that should in fact be split off as a list article. That's the point of the list article. Feel free to make them and good luck. Ill probably be one of the first that would be interested in looking at them when your done.Camelbinky (talk) 00:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah, that works for the Championships, but do you think List of the Jeopardy! champions with over $50,000 in prizes and List of the largest single-day Jeopardy! winners are notable enough for creation? Staxringold _talk^contribs 00:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Do those lists exist as a topic anywhere? Such as the official Jeopardy! website? If they exist which I believe they do, even in a format not suitable to be copied in Wikipedia, it is fine to create an article on those lists of champions in a table format or list of your choosing. If no one else in the world, online or magazine or book, has cared to create those lists then they are not notable.Camelbinky (talk) 00:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• Yep, those are the links I made in the original post, the official Jeopardy! website lists all total-prizes of $50k or more and all single-day prizes of $30k or more. Beginning to work on the single-day prizes in my Sandbox. Once the list is worked up will include more facts like most appearances on the list, any streaks of $30k+ wins, and probably a link or two describing Jennings' $75k show. Staxringold _talk^contribs 00:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

request for mediation

I asked for informal mediation in a content dispute. I filed the request and was waiting to be contacted about the mediation. However, in the meantime, the editor with whom I have the dispute has added his own comments to my request. Is this how the process works? Or are we supposed to wait to be contacted? thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.163.63.37 (talk) 15:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Policies are too scattered

Policies are too scattered. For example BLP1E. We need to put them in one place and organize them otherwise only wikigeeks will know all of the policies. I intend to do this. When doing this, no policy will be changed. The minor exception is links might be added or minor notations to tabulate the policies. Anyone wishing to help, let me know. I will not begin until we have an informal working group (tentative name: Policy Housekeeping Working Group) to do the work. WP:Policy is a good starting point. Policies which are not linked to this page is a good start. Links to guidelines which are not policy is another.User F203 (talk) 18:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Great, a kindred spirit. I've been doing exactly this recently, have a look at User:M/Hitlist for a few diffs noting some rather serious cleanup. I'd be glad to have someone doing the same. It is work that a lot of people seem to support, but you have to be rather careful. Perhaps we could use that hitlist page as a jumping-off point? Feel free to edit it. I hope more dedicated editors are interested in this, our policies are a mess.    M   22:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. Your list now forms our working group. 2 members for now! User F203 (talk) 15:00, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Count me in too. There is actually a WikiProject for this (WP:WikiProject Policy and Guidelines), but it hasn't got off the ground. I've noticed M doing some excellent work recently though.--Kotniski (talk) 16:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Notability of pilots

What would make a pilot notable? I've looked at Wikipedia:Notability, Wikipedia:Notability (people), and Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Notability and none list the criteria for listing notable pilots. So I've come here to generate a list of criteria and a consensus as to what make a pilot notable.Smallman12q (talk) 19:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Why wouldn't WP:BIO apply? Pilots are no different from anyone else when it comes to notability, so Sully and Chuck Yeager are notable, but the guy who just flew you from Newark to LAX almost certainly isn't. – ukexpat (talk) 19:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Writing a novella could make a pilot notable. –Whitehorse1 19:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

RfC on policy status of Wikipedia:OTRS

Comments are appreciated at Wikipedia_talk:OTRS#Policy_disputed.    M   22:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Youtube?

I’m having a little problem with copyrights. I don’t know a lot about it all, and my question concerns linking to YouTube. I’m writing an article for Sounds From a Town I Love, a Woody Allen short film, and I found the whole movie here on YouTube. I was wondering…could I use this as a reference and link to it in the article? Please also keep in mind that this is not my only source, I have many more.

I found some info about this at WP: YT, but I’m still not completely sure. If you can help me out, it would be most appreciated.

Thanks.  ARTICHOKE-BOY  (Talk) 22:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Artichoke-Boy. You're right, WP:YT is the most relevant guideline for this. Judging by the page you linked, it includes a clip with opening credits of a short film shown on TV. There's no indication the film is free-licensed or that the YouTube account is owned by the producing studio though. The account appears to belong to a fan. Because of that, in this case you won't be able to use it as a reference or article link. Thanks, –Whitehorse1 22:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I sort of expected that I couldn't use the link...I just wanted to make sure. I guess leaving one reference out couldn't do much harm. Thanks again.  ARTICHOKE-BOY  (Talk) 23:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

That said, you can still use the movie itself as a primary source, you just can't link to the YouTube vid of it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 01:00, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

NPOV and weasel words in Flat Earth

I want to ask if the following violates any policies of Wikipedia: "The Flat Earth Society accept or promote the Flat Earth hypothesis , despite the hypothesis having been long contradicted by overwhelming evidence as well as by the modern understanding of planet formation and physics, and the scientific community now dismisses the notion as fantasy." I believe that there are NPOV and weasel words in it. It is part of the intro for the flat earth article. I don't believe it belongs in the intro period, since it devotes too much space for an introduction to such an organization, and doesn't flow with the rest of the intro. But that's a separate issue. I don't know if Wikipedia has a policy on arguments it considers overwhelming one-sided. - Cyborg Ninja 02:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia's policy does not explicitly dictate that equal weight be given to "fringe theories". Articles like these are generally written in the scope of a predetermined scientific consensus.--WaltCip (talk) 02:11, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

That deals with whether or not fringe theories should be mentioned and attributed articles or sections. In this case, the Flat Earth Society has its own section, though there probably shouldn't be one considering WP:FRINGE. However, what I'm asking is whether there are weasel words and NPOV violations in the intro, and how it could be reworked. I believe merely stating the group's existence and belief, if at all, should be sufficient and would not violate policy. - Cyborg Ninja 02:27, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Category deletion policy proposed to be renamed and demoted or merged altogether

The discussion thread is here. Comments requested, thanks. Cenarium (talk) 11:03, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Postage Stamps & Other Govt. Images: Noncopyright Limits Including Size

Legal restrictions on governmental images, including postage stamps and the Presidential seal, may go beyond copyright. Wiki discusses copyright but there are also size restrictions and other limits. For example, it may be illegal to reproduce a stamp in its actual size, both U.S. or foreign stamps, both new and old, even centuries old. Fair use and public domain may be irrelevant. We should have an article on how to handle these issues where contributors will see it. And it would help if Wiki software facilitated being legal for image size by forbidding a display size within a range surrounding a contributor-entered actual size, e.g., when a contributor checks a box on an edit page saying that the image being uploaded is an uncanceled postage stamp (and whatever other restrictions apply). I assume Wiki policy has to be set, though, before such an article is posted or software is coded, so I'd like to raise the policy issue here. Nick Levinson (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Artificial Intelligence User Accounts

User Accounts operated by any Artificial Intelligence, without being declared as AI, are not allowed unless a continuing fee is paid to Wikipedia.

AI accounts approved by WP:BAG are exempt from this Policy and need not be declared as AI.

AI accounts which are "outed" by a non-AI user must offer a substantial cash prize to the user who outs them. HarryAlffa (talk) 18:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

?. Ruslik_Zero 18:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)