Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

Not to be confused with Wikipedia talk:WikiProject American football, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian rules football, or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Canadian football.

RfC medals in infobox

Following up on this discussion, which medals should be included in the infobox of (association) footballers and national teams?

1. Olympics only
2. Olympics and other major multi-sports events (e.g. Mediterranean Games)
3. All international tournaments

Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:03, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

• Olympics only if it's what other sports projects are doing (tennis, swimming, etc.) for consistency. Otherwise, all international tournaments. It would be very weird to include the Mediterranean Games but not the World Cup, for example. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:38, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Anything where you have a gold, silver and bronze. Other sports we include things like the World Games. If the international tournament doesn't follow this format, then it doesn't belong. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:11, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
  • @Lee Vilenski: {{Medal}} also has parameters for "Winner" and "Runner-up", not only gold, silver and bronze. So it's not necessarily true that a tournament that doesn't have a third-place match "doesn't belong". Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:59, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• Olympics only and no need to link the locations. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:13, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Nehme, as other sports are doing it also and i see no reason to only include the olympics. Kante4 (talk) 18:20, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 is the one we are using in almost every article, I don't see any reason to change it.Cracker-Kun (talk) 18:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 - Olympics only, otherwise where do we draw the line? It does not matter what other sports do. GiantSnowman 09:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 It should not be restricted to only the Olympics or Mediterranean games. Sea Ane (talk) 15:52, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 the Olympics give actual medals, other competitions do not. Possibly also could include Olympic-like events e.g. Youth Olympics, Summer Universiade (universities version of Olympic Games) if they have football events. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • @Joseph2302: Competitions like the Asian Games, where football is an event, do give medals; see e.g. 2018 Asian Games medal table. Number 57 16:29, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 - Actually, almost all competitions give out medals to the winners (well, sometimes they don't for when there is no match for a 3rd place match played, but 1st and 2nd get almost always medals, can't think of a tournament that they didn't to be honest, but I say "almost" in case I am missing some cases), but the point is that Olympics give only medals and not cups as trophies (unless people count souvenirs as trophies) and so people correlate Olympics with medals, because the tournaments in Olympics are not overshadowed by cups (medals only is still superb, by the way, and, of course, something much better than the old days, much less thorny, considering what the trophy used to be). I don't care if other sports are doing it, but I don't see why not all to not be added as long as you only need to click "show" so the medals to appear, as long as the articles don't look overwhelmed when you visit them... Nialarfatem (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
  • Actually, Champions League (which I have seen in the infobox) only awards a trophy to the winning side, and cash to clubs based on performance. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:09, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Nialarfatem. Also Template:Medals has parameters like "winner" and "runner-up" which could be used (and are used now) even if they didn't get medals. But they do get medals in every international competition and you would have to never watch a football tournament to say otherwise. Piotr Bart (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 If other sports are doing it, we shouldn't restrict to Olympics only for consistence purposes. BristolTreeHouse (talk) 07:15, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 1 From what I remember it was created for the Olympics and should remain as such. Govvy (talk) 08:25, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
  • It appears to have been added without discussion in 2009 (there is nothing on the talk page from that time). Number 57 10:49, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 per Nehme and Nialarfatem - other sports do, there is no requirement for the tournament to use medals, and the section says 'honours', not 'olympic medals' or whatever, so excluding major honours would just be a bit weird. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 10:08, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 Why should football be different to other sports? It’s a sport just like any other after all!--Egghead06 (talk) 11:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 Major international competitions such as the World Cup and Euros give medals, at least to the winning and second-placed teams, so no reason not to include them in the infobox. ComplexRational (talk) 21:33, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 Keep consistency with other sports that use the same style. Comatmebro (talk) 22:13, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
• Option 3 for consistency's sake.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:55, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Non-diffusing categories

A user (@Mitch Ames:) has used AWB to remove valid categories such as Category:Greek football managers and Category:Australian soccer coaches from articles (now reverted). However, they were not tagged as non-diffusing, hence the confusion - should we run a bot or similar to tag all parent categories in Category:Association football managers by nationality (and Category:Association football players by nationality to avoid further confusion? GiantSnowman 06:11, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd say yes, if they should all have that, and my understanding is they should. Crowsus (talk) 12:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

WP:CATSPECIFIC is clear that articles ought not be in a category and its parent. I don't see the need for non-diffusing categories here, but if you think it appropriate, please add {{Non-diffusing subcategory}} and {{All included}} to the categories, to avoid the same "confusion" happening in future. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:18, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

In absence of {{Non-diffusing subcategory}} and {{All included}}, WP:CATSPECIFIC applies and the articles should be removed from the parent category. According to WP:LOCALCONSENSUS: participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Mitch - no, the consensus is clear. Try and remove Category:English footballers from Category:England international footballers and see how many reverts/warnings you get from different users...the categories are non-diffusing, they just need to be tagged appropriately. GiantSnowman 10:37, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

they just need to be tagged appropriately — Then please do that. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:04, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Could someone who is familiar with the local non-diffusing consensus please tag the aforementioned categories - Greek football managers, Greek expatriate football managers, Australian expatriate soccer coaches, Australian soccer coaches - with {{Non-diffusing subcategory}} and {{All included}} please. Note that the WP:DUPCAT says that they should identified thus. Mitch Ames (talk) 02:44, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Mass creation of "Fooian expatriate footballers in bar" categories

See Special:Contributions/23shlomomaman23. Is this a desired categorization? Geschichte (talk) 07:32, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Was just coming here to post this - I think not, and I am sure there is consensus at CFD previously not to have categories like this. GiantSnowman 10:33, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Just notified the user at his talkpage that these are unwanted. --BlameRuiner (talk) 10:57, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

We then need to purge the rest of the Category:Expatriate footballers by nationality and country of residence. Geschichte (talk) 09:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Pizzi

Pizzi (Portuguese footballer) was moved to Pizzi (footballer) without any discussion, and there are other footballers called Pizzi. Is this okay? SLBedit (talk) 16:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted the move by @Nehme1499:. Worth a WP:RM. GiantSnowman 17:03, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Fausto Pizzi and Juan Antonio Pizzi aren't known solely as "Pizzi", unlike Luís Miguel Afonso Fernandes. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Poor argument. This guy is known only by the mononym "Trézéguet", but who comes into your mind when I say "the footballer Trézéguet"? Andd when I say "the footballer Thuram", who comes to mind? This mononymous guy, or this guy with two names, or even this one? 2A00:23C5:E187:5F00:B916:E44F:8554:7A3 (talk) 11:42, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Citations wanted - potential entries for List of footballers killed during World War II

Reposted and updated version of original now archived.

As main contributor to this article, I would like to flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.

• Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
• Walter Berg (Germany) - alleged died in Soviet captivity after capture in war in 1949
• Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
• Henri Bierna (Belgium)
• Walter Claus-Oehler (Germany)
• Eddy de Neve (Netherlands) - also disputed death circumstance and identity. A source to a Dutch language article was found and he has been added to the list by Lettler on 9 August 2021.Cloptonson (talk) 08:03, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
• Jozsef Eisenhoffer (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
• Hermann Flick (Germany)
• Franz Jelinek (Austria) - source to German war graves website found, added to list by Lettler on 5 August 2021.Cloptonson (talk) 13:45, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
• Werner Klaas (Germany)
• Karol Kossok (Poland)
• Franz Krumm (Germany)
• Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
• Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
• Richard Malik (Germany)
• Alexander Martinek (Austria)
• Otto Martwig (Germany)
• Philip Meldon (Ireland) - disputed death details, not known to CWGC.
• Hans Mengel (Germany)
• Adam Obrubanski (Poland)
• Slavko Pavletic (Croatia)
• Mimis Pierrakos (Greece)
• Alfreds Plade (Latvia) - was added to the list but I have taken it out and copied it on list talk page as the citations used did not indicate how he died or any service. There are two citations in his article on Latvian wikipedia article (which states he was repatriated to Germany as a Baltic German, served implicitly in their forces and fell on the Eastern Front) but I find both unreadable.Cloptonson (talk) 07:59, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
• Eriks Raisters (Latvia)
• Stasys Razma (Lithuania) - disputed death details
• Fyodor Rimsha (Russia)
• Janis Rozitis (Latvia)
• Holger Salin (Finland)
• Otto Siffling (Germany) - It is listed under the list on German Wikipedia, but says he died of pleurisy. I've added it here in case he is found to have served during the war.
• Aleksandrs Stankus (Latvia)
• Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date, death place given in German war grave site not easy to ascertain as it only gives German form of name rather than its vernacular.
• Willi Völker (Germany)
• Karl Wahlmuller (Austria)
• Heinz Warnken (Germany)
• Willi Wigold (Germany) - date of death is disputed

There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 06:27, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

FIFA sources for legal names

In examining the official FIFA source for the women's Olympic tournament, I discovered that Ellen White (footballer) and Steph Houghton have legally taken their husbands' names, while continuing their work under their maiden names. [1] On White, this was reverted with the explanation that it's "wrong" because she is still called Ellen White as a player. [2] I reverted this back because the logic is faulty and FIFA should be a reliable source, or thousands of pages on men and women need revising. There doesn't seem to have been any problem on Alex Morgan (a Good Article) in using FIFA to prove that she now has a married surname but still plays as Morgan. Please can somebody keep an eye on these pages before it turns into a lame edit war. 2A00:23C5:E187:5F00:7D66:53DB:E519:5646 (talk) 15:28, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I see no problems with including the married names, but having the article at the (COMMONNAME) maiden name. GiantSnowman 15:34, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Can also always add the "Birth Name" parameter underneath in the infobox as well, like the Alex Morgan page has. RedPatch (talk) 19:22, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Good idea. GiantSnowman 19:30, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

In an article such as Ellen White (footballer), I would definitely start the article with Ellen Toni White (married Convery; born... etc. The same thing goes for artists that were known under a name when they were young, and then married to another name many, many years later. In addition, when people get even older, may be married two times or more, changing their married name every time. Geschichte (talk) 10:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Cristian Romero transfer confusion

Although the transfer of Cristian Romero from Atalanta to Tottenham was officially announced earlier today, the reports of the transaction from both clubs contradict each other. Atalanta claims that the transfer was a loan with option to buy, contradictory to every previous report (and every third party source, even those published after the announcement), while Tottenham makes no mention of a loan but also does not claim a definite sale or contract length. This article was recently published highlighting the issue, and I will also confidently say that there's no translation issue, as the website says exactly the same thing in Italian. How should this be dealt with? ComplexRational (talk) 21:41, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

There is a lot of miss information, it's a loan with the option to buy at the end of the season. Govvy (talk) 21:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Some of the reporting is clearer now. ComplexRational (talk) 00:58, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

The BBC are now reporting this as a permanent signing for a fee of “about £47m”[3]. Daemonickangaroo2018 (talk) 06:45, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

You know what, I feel like emailing Spurs now! Govvy (talk) 09:25, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

@ComplexRational: This just popped up if you're interested. https://www.football.london/tottenham-hotspur-fc/transfer-news/cristian-romero-tottenham-agreement-confirmed-21252266 Cheers. Govvy (talk) 16:05, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the link Govvy. I'll probably add it to some of the articles to mitigate confusion. ComplexRational (talk) 19:57, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Association football goalkeepers who have scored

I was looking through the Alisson article and noticed the category "Association football goalkeepers who have scored" has disappeared so I thought I may need to add this in as other goalkeepers who scored indeed had that category, before discovering the category has been deleted. Oh well, I didn't notice there was a discussion on that back in June. Seems reasonable as to why it was deleted. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 11:37, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

It is a list now, List of goalscoring goalkeepers. Geschichte (talk) 10:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Suspected plagarism on Chelsea's current season page

Hey, on Chelsea's current season page, there seems to be direct plagarism in the review section (copied word for word from the sources). I haven't actually come across such an issue in all my time on Wikipedia, so wanted to ask for advice here first before acting. --SuperJew (talk) 20:07, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Copyright violations#Parts of article violate copyright and Wikipedia:Copyright violations#Addressing contributors - in short remove the offending stuff, tag the article for revdel, and warn the editor who added it. GiantSnowman 20:39, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I have tagged for revision deletion (for future reference, it's Template:Copyvio-revdel), and warned the user. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! I didn't have time to deal with it as I had an exam this morning (3 more left...) --SuperJew (talk) 10:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Honours

I think for the big European (and South American) teams there is no need to list fourth or semi-final (no medal)!!! In fact, just stating the champion, runner-up and 3rd place is enough for the big teams in the world. 2001:EE0:41C1:96F3:E43D:6AE9:4206:F1EA (talk) 08:22, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed - in fact, it should be winner of league only, and winner/runner-up of Cup only. GiantSnowman 09:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, I see the pages about all the major teams (except Germany) still having the fourth and semi-final titles in "Honours", and so let's fix them all.

2001:EE0:41C1:96F3:E43D:6AE9:4206:F1EA (talk) 10:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

2000 England v Germany football match

Is 2000 England v Germany football match really notable enough for an individual article? Just because England manager Kevin Keegan resigned after the match, that doesn't mean we need an article about the match. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:29, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, content can be covered elsewhere, does not need its own page. GiantSnowman 10:53, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah IMO it's useful background context to the 1–5 match, but the unusual factors of being the last match at the stadium and resignation of the manager are not related, so it's making it out to be a more significant event than it was. Crowsus (talk) 11:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

This is a tricky one. On one level, a match of this nature could be fairly easily demonstrated to pass WP:GNG. All the media outlets produced detailed reports of the game, and the circumstances surrounding it as well. It also receives enduring coverage to this day, for example [4]. But obviously we don't have articles for every international that's ever played. I'd say on balance probably keep it. But I can see the arguments against as well.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:20, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

It's an interesting general question though, especially in the internet era. Like Aguero vs QPR in 2012, that game has had almost endless discussion and coverage since but I'm not sure we'd normally expect an article about it. Mind you, why not, if it meets policy? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 12:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The article feels generic, I mean, is the topic really the Final Wembley Stadium (1923) game ? But nether-the-less the Last matches at Wembley Stadium (1923) is enough in my opinion. Govvy (talk) 10:09, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I think it is a notable match and could pass GNG. Last match at the old Wembley Stadium, the resignation of Keegan. I'm sure we could find contemporary accounts in the media or books if we looked. I understand the argument around not keeping it, but I do think it's notable. I also agree with TRM, the City v QPR match is definitely worthy of an article. Can't believe there isn't one already. NapHit (talk) 16:54, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Old squad numbers

Does anyone know of a reliable source for Football League players' squad numbers in previous seasons? Specifically I am looking at the 1999-2000 season, the first season in which the Football League used them. Soccerbase doesn't list them, Soccerway doesn't even have squad data that far back, and beyond that I'm not really sure where else to look...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:54, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

This any good? GiantSnowman 13:15, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Is that a reliable source? Any idea who runs it? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:44, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Are you looking for something specific? The Birmingham Mail published my lot's numbers at the start of that season, and archive copies exist. Daresay other papers did the same for their local clubs, although it wouldn't help with players who joined during the season. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:21, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Trying to expand 1999–2000 Gillingham F.C. season and I cannot find a reliable source for the squad numbers online. Unfortunately I only attended a couple of games that season for various reasons and didn't keep the programmes from the ones I did go to, although even if I had they almost certainly wouldn't have covered every single player...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:32, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

you could probably find some old programs on ebay or something and failing that, you could DM and/or email the actual team and see if they can help you.Muur (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The backs of these two programmes give you quite a few. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:51, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Struway2:, between those two programmes I have actually covered all bar two players. I'll see if I can make contact with anyone online who might have copies of programmes which could confirm the other two...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@ChrisTheDude: never thought yesterday, ENFA gives squad numbers against the players in its match details pages. If it's only a few you're missing, let me know and I'll look them up for you later. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:56, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@Struway2: - fab - thanks! It's just Manny Omoyinmi and Anthony Williams I am missing. Let me know if you need details of specific matches in which they played -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:03, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Football programmes are published works and full under journal category as a cite. So that should be sorted really. Govvy (talk) 10:17, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Omoyinmi 38, Williams 39. Both played in the match cited: <ref>{{cite web |url=https://enfa.co.uk/ |title=Matches: 18 September 1999: Gillingham 0–2 Preston North End |website=English National Football Archive |access-date=10 August 2021 |url-access=subscription}}</ref> cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:59, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Fabulous - thanks! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:31, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@ChrisTheDude:, aa, good ol Junior Lewis was in the Gills squad then, I've played a little footy with him on the Barnet training pitch many years ago. Govvy (talk) 12:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Wenger

Hi all, there is a situation developing on Arsène Wenger's page and would definitely welcome some input; @Bkhd12: has expanded the lead but I reverted the lead for these reasons:

-- It doesn't need WP:TOOMANYREFS in the lead. The lead should act as a summary of the main body of the text, and certain references aren't necessary. Said user hasn't used 'specific' references, but used generic ones (like Amy Lawrence's book, without a page number). I wouldn't class 'sportingnews.com' and 'GiveMeSport' as high-quality sources either.

-- Why is Wenger being Arsenal's most successful and longest-serving manager omitted from the first para? That is more valuable than him managing 1,000 PL matches or winning 7 FA Cups (Guardiola has won 4 League Cups, you don't see that being in the first para of the lead). Wenger changed the culture of a football club, that is his legacy. Not necessarily his longevity.

-- 'often considered the greatest manager', is unnecessary. I would rather the lead brought out the fact he was an influential manager, to avoid 'greatest ever' talk.

-- Hale End, no mention of it in the main body of the text. Why is it included in the lead? To say he is responsible for the 'early success' of Arsenal's Hale End youth academy is disingenuous and vague.

I reverted the lead in keeping with WP:GAC, but Bkhd12 has refused to corporate or reach out here for opinions. So rather than getting into an edit war, I'd welcome some constructive feedback, cheers. Lemonade51 (talk) 08:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

You really are suppose to avoid adding references to leads, and other than that, it's looking like a borderline edit-war there! Govvy (talk) 10:20, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Minus the refs and with a little bit of clean-up I would agree with Bkhd12's version. Wider consensus is definitely needed. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 12:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I actually agree with the original version (from Lemonade). A lead should indeed be concise, only summarize what's stated in the body (a phrase from the current version such as "his contribution to the upheaval of the traditional English football culture, seen as classically indolent and outdated" is not supported by the body), and not include any refs (especially sources such as Google Translate...). Statements like "often considered as one of the greatest managers of all time" should also be avoided as it's still arbitrary, even if it's sourced. The only thing I would take from the current version and put in the original one is that Wenger won the most FA Cups as manager. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 16:58, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @WA8MTWAYC:, I had made changes to reflect this here. Lemonade51 (talk) 09:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi all, sorry for the late comment. Happy to contribute my reasons for the expansion of the article;

- the revision to the para as the manager who has managed the most PL games/FA cups is extremely pertinent to include and has been omitted in @Lemonade51:'s original version. - In my opinion, starting off the lead with 'widely known for managing Arsenal' then adding his achievements (most pl games/facups won) is more informative to a reader than a vague statement that he is the most successful. Which again could be debated considering Herbert Chapman by some (others will have to think, but I'd rather avoid the implication entirely and give a more objective fact)

How is the statement 'vague'? He is the most successful manager because his job is based on trophies, it doesn't need to be laid on thick. No Arsenal manager has won more than he has; if you are going to bring up Chapman than you've confused the lines with 'greatest' and 'most influential'. Lemonade51 (talk) 09:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

- 'often considered one of the greatest managers' is again an allude to his reputation, which I've tried to cite [I can see clumsily, but there's some other solid sources there]. Definitely up for debate/consensus, I'd posit Ferguson, Klopp, Guardiola, Mourinho pages who all include some interp of this phrase.

So why is 'successful' vague, and 'greatest' not? Even with citations, it isn't clear what people mean, just like describing someone as a 'world-class player'. You repeatedly ignored the fact that editors are strongly advised to avoid WP:TOOMANYREFS in the lead. Just because Ferguson, Klopp, et al pages have it, does not mean Wenger's should follow suit. Granted, the whole entry is in need of freshening up, but I reverted your changes because the quality of sources do not stand up, you've padded the lead with unnecessary references and more to the point, unlike the manager entries you've mentioned, Wenger's is classed as WP:GA. So its 'present' state, the one that passed the GA criteria, does a succinct job of summarising the article (for now). It could be better, that I'm not arguing with, but if it went for WP:PR or WP:FAC, then I'm sure the lead at its current state would be pulled up.

For reasons of simplicity, my edited version can be found here. I removed referencing and included the bit about Wenger winning the most FA Cups. I don't think managing the most PL games is an achievement that is worth including in the first paragraph; it hadn't up until the point Ferguson retired if we are 'comparing' entries. And if you are that 'keen' on achievements, why not include Wenger being the only manager to have lost all three UEFA competition finals in the opening para? Lemonade51 (talk) 09:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

- Willing to yield the Hale End point (however there is some reference in the body by the way, "Several English players have started their careers at Arsenal under Wenger, such as Ashley Cole, David Bentley and Matthew Upson,[398] Wenger commented that an advantage of building his team around British players was the guarantee of stability[399]. ". Although the lack of this recognition makes the lead a bit unfinished I would argue. Especially as Lemonade51 added 'at Monaco Wenger earned a reputation for spotting young talent and developing a youth system' in the lead & is less relevant than his utilisation of Hale End. Perhaps one for future editors to ponder. I can definitely see Lemonade's criticism here

It's relevant because at Monaco, Wenger supported the development of Trezeguet, Henry, Thuram – players who went on to win the big prizes. WP:WEIGHT is important. Lemonade51 (talk) 09:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

- Re:3rd para & Le Professeur tag, I would stick with my revision. Will try to cite 'upheaval of traditional english football culture'

Again, you've ignored my point about using general book sources, what page in Lawrence's book does it mention 'Innovations credited to him include; improvements to the scouting of players, the establishment of pass and play traits in English football and the application of modern sports science in the diet and training of players'? Lemonade51 (talk) 09:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

- I reckon my expansion also made the article a bit more flowing & improved QoLs compared to the original. Original lead was jarring & terse in structure from para to para.

QoL? Eh? Lemonade51 (talk) 09:08, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Again sorry for the late comment, looking for consensus instead of editwarfare haha Bkhd12 (talk) 07:19, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Template colors

Hello! I see that the colors of many national football team templates are changed. Why can't you have the established like they was previously. Like on the templates of Paraguay, South Africa, Morocco, Belgium and so forth. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.103.4 (talk) 15:15, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Most likely MOS:CONTRAST Spike 'em (talk) 15:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Actually, one IP user (45.120.113.5) seems to be changing lots of colours for national football template. The couple I've checked were perfectly fine beforehand, but they seem to be switching the colours i.e. from red background, white text to white background, red text (on Template:Paraguay football squad 1992 Summer Olympics). Which seems pointless to me. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:00, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

And looking at edit summary in Special:Diff/965709973, it seems like the return of a possible block evader. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I was wondering that, looks like block evasion to me. Govvy (talk) 16:03, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Facundo Pellistri

So, Pellistri was on loan at Alaves from Manchester United last season. He returned to United after 30th June, appeared in pre season matches and even scored a goal. He rejoined Alaves on loan after it. So I guess we should show it as separate loan spells in his infobox? I did the same earlier, however an IP thinks it should be a single loan spell. What would be the right way to show it? Let me know your opinions. Thanks in advance. Kokoeist (talk) 17:04, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Two separate loans, as he was (unofficially) active for United in between. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:23, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, these are two separate spells. GiantSnowman 19:50, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

English reserve stats

Adam Morgan scored twice this evening for Chelmsford City's reserves in the Essex and Suffolk Border Football League. Would this merit infobox inclusion? I know we include foreign players' reserve stats in their infoboxes if they're playing in countries like Spain, France, Romania, Germany, etc., but not sure on our general viewpoint on reserve stats in English players' infoboxes if the league is a part of the English pyramid (probably because reserve teams in the English pyramid isn't really a thing). NouveauSarfas (Talk page) 19:34, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

If Chelmsford City's reserves play in the English senior football pyramid, then the stats should be displayed in the infobox. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:39, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Just added. NouveauSarfas (Talk page) 19:43, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Nehme - include them, if the Reserve team plays in the football pyramid. GiantSnowman 19:50, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Notability of American coaches of foreign national soccer teams

Is American coaches of foreign national soccer teams really a notable article? Looking at both of the previous deletion discussions, the keep votes make significantly worse arguments than the delete voters and the delete voters outnumber the keep voters. This article is clearly a U.S.-biased fancruft. Either a deletion review or a 3rd deletion discussion needs to be made in order to sort things out once and for all. KingSkyLord (talk | contribs) 04:20, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

No, I don't think so - take to AFD. GiantSnowman 15:00, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Ryan Jones (footballer, born 2002)

Hey team, may someone review the above page and move to mainspace? Debuted in the EFL Cup yesterday.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:32, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done GiantSnowman 15:00, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

FIFA World Rankings

How are the FIFA Rankings updated?

I noticed on the Canada page it just says | FIFA Rank = {{FIFA World Rankings|CAN|mdy=y}} but I don't understand where the number comes from or how this works. I wanted to change it as the ranking updated today. --MattBinYYC (talk) 08:45, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@MattBinYYC: It's updated via a template - {{FIFA World Rankings}}. The data is updated via editing Module:SportsRankings/data/FIFA World Rankings. --SuperJew (talk) 09:32, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@SuperJew: Yeah, I found out. Too hard for me to attempt sadly. --MattBinYYC (talk) 09:34, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

GTC needs pushing over the line

Hi guys, I've had a Good Topic candidate listed for nearly three months with only four responses. I think it's pretty close to getting over the line for promotion, but I think a couple more !votes would get it there. Of course, if there's anything you think needs improving, do let me know! – PeeJay 13:22, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Makouana

Could someone help me organize Béni Makouana’s infobox? I don’t know how to differentiate the youth career from the senior career in it. This guy’s early career is confusing. Paul Vaurie (talk) 14:18, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done KingSkyLord (talk | contribs) 14:38, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Bryan Gil

I asked where the number is from [5] , can someone else deal with this guy before I blow a gasket! Govvy (talk) 16:54, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Tottenham announced them here RedPatch (talk) 17:00, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

meh, well, the editor keeps screwing up the page. :/ Tottenham are so slow at updating their team profile pages, bugs me out. Govvy (talk) 17:03, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

With two days to go, I would have thought every PL team would announce their squad numbers for all players by now. Also on the squad template (Template:Tottenham Hotspur F.C. squad), are we definite that it should remain as "Bryan" instead of Gil - usually, not always, player's surnames are displayed. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 18:00, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Interim/Caretaker coach hired permanently

If a coach/manager is named the interim/caretaker manager upon the dismissal of the previous manager, then a couple of weeks later is officially named the permanent manager, should it be two separate spells or just one. I put it as just one spell at Javier Pérez (soccer coach), since it's still the same role and basically just a contract extension. However, someone just changed it to two separate instances, one as interim and one as permanent. When an assistant manager takes over for a match due to the main manager being suspended/ill/otherwise unavailable, we don't list them as the first-team manager in the infobox. RedPatch (talk) 16:58, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@RedPatch: Two separate spells in my opinion. He was an interim, and then he was permanently named manager. Two different "status" on his job, to be honest. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 18:25, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Segunda División B to Segunda División RFEF / Tercera División to Tercera División RFEF

I've created a RM to Segunda División B and Tercera División, to rename them to Segunda División RFEF and Tercera División RFEF, respectively. Although they might seem clearly a continuity to the aforementioned divisions, a discussion was raised here before, which I failed to see a clear consensus, and despite that, my RM was accepted a month ago or so. Because of those moves, I have created a CfD to the cats related to those divisions (players and managers for now), but @GiantSnowman: asked to raise the issue here as he opposed to it. @Crowsus: also created a category for Segunda RFEF (Category:Segunda División RFEF), so I think the discussion should be brought up here again, because we need to define how we should approach these divisions.

My suggestion is to rename those cats and merge Category:Segunda División B into Category:Segunda División RFEF, but I would like to see some opinions. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 18:24, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Like I said at the CFD, I now think we need separate articles for Segunda División B (the old third tier until 2021) and Segunda División RFEF (the new fourth tier from 2021), and therefore separate categories. GiantSnowman 20:13, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: After analyzing some leagues which changed name, like the Portuguese Terceira Divisão, I will split them into two separate pages. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 14:52, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Player names in squad templates

I came across this doubt recently while editing Spanish football: how should we list the player name in the squad template? Always the name, always the surname, the way the player is widely known or what his shirt actually states? I'm more in favour of the last one, so users can actually identify the player on the field through the template, but I'm not sure... BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 18:47, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Surname, usually. GiantSnowman 20:14, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Sam Kerr

Hello, a small number of IP addresses has edited the article thinking the player's time at Chelsea is over, however I don't see any news from sources about that. It should remain as 2019– but I have a feeling the IP addresses will notice and change it back to what they think. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 06:12, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

She has a year left on her contract (signed a 2.5 year deal mid 2019-20). All I could find were very vague rumours. --SuperJew (talk) 06:31, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes it does seem vague, certainly not definite. Violating 3RR in this situation is not ideal for experienced users either. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 07:55, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Ruiz-Atil interview

Hello. At around the two-minute mark in this interview, Kays Ruiz-Atil reveals that he went from FC Gerland to Olympique Lyonnais and back to FC Gerland before signing for FC Barcelona. Should we include this in his youth career in his article's infobox? And how should we source that? Paul Vaurie (talk) 12:20, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

If the publisher (VISTA in this case) is a reliable source, you can source using the {{Cite AV media}} template. --SuperJew (talk) 13:37, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Nicklas

Hello. Could someone explain to my why Nicklas redirects to Nicklas Bendtner? It doesn’t make any sense to me. Neither does the Lord Bendtner redirect make sense. Paul Vaurie (talk) 12:56, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

"Lord Bendtner" is a nickname which is mentioned in the Personal life of the article. Although I agree that redirecting Nicklas to Nicklas Bendtner seems silly, when there's 35 people with that name. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:00, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, it is mentioned in the article so the Lord Bendtner is defensible as a redirect. I've been BOLD and changed the redirect, and requested that Nicklas (name) be moved over it. Spike 'em (talk) 13:05, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Spike and Joseph2302. Paul Vaurie (talk) 14:05, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Idriss Saadi

How can we fit in Strasbourg B in Idriss Saadi? The current way looks weird with the loan underneath. Note that he only played for Strasbourg B in 2018 (2 games). Paul Vaurie (talk) 13:31, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Something I proposed in the past for players who go to the B team temporarily is to put the arrow like we do for loans, but not the word loan. RedPatch (talk) 13:54, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm... My solution that I thought of was to extend the B team years to 2020. But it wouldn't be an accurate representation of the B team years. Paul Vaurie (talk) 14:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Any other opinions on what should be done? Paul Vaurie (talk) 14:03, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Simply put Strasbourg B following his loan spell, though I also agree with RedPatch's proposal of adding an arrow without "(loan)". Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:17, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Club seasons articles and MoS

Why are there lot of pages about season clubs who don't meet our MoS? Dr Salvus 21:01, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Can you provide an example? – PeeJay 20:14, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

@PeeJay: articles about first tier teams season use football box collapsibles for matches but articles about almost of non-first tier teams season use tables. MoS says that tables should be used but almost of our articles don't meet the Mos Dr Salvus 23:17, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

MoS is just a guideline, not a policy directive. Govvy (talk) 23:35, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

This may also show that consensus in actuality doesn't agree with MoS and therefore the MoS should be changed to reflect actual consensus. --SuperJew (talk) 00:22, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

People have tried to change the MoS on this but it never succeeds because the football box template doesn't fit with MOS:ACCESS and WP:LIST whereas the current MoS does. Those articles should be updated to reflect those policies. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 09:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Image crop badly needed

Hi folks. Craig Short's profile image is in urgent need of cropping. Insert pun here… ;-) Robby.is.on (talk) 21:53, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

On it. Crowsus (talk) 21:54, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, Crowsus. :-) Robby.is.on (talk) 02:41, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

On that subject I see that this article has the infobox image requested to be cropped. I tried to follow instructions but the edit was disabled as I did not have permission to review images. That is an unfortunate dead end on that point of view. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 14:21, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Actually, I found out from User:FMSky that we can use the crop tool, that user cropped the Harry Toffolo image successfully and I had done so with the image I tried to upload from my device. Thanks, Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 14:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Re: the earlier discussions about medals in the infobox......

..... check out Masayuki Okano -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:01, 14 August 2021 (UTC)