Talk:Gaza genocide

List of Supporting Countries

Please add a list of countries and organisations supporting South Africa's case at ICJ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.70.80.51 (talk) 23:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

January 2024

I propose that we split this article into like 10 articles more. Clearly we haven't created enough content forks out of this war, how about we divide it by months or cities or something? I'm sure it will serve for, well, something probably.

This article is at least much, much more serious and realistic than Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel. But we have Palestinian genocide accusation already. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 16:28, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus: Redirecting to Palestinian genocide accusation has already been tried by Parham wiki and was reverted by Vinegarymass911 with the comments that these two articles are "... not the same thing and this should not be merged without a discussion". Also, while article titles should be precise, advice also exists that precise language should not date quickly. Now it is January 2024, I also have to wonder at the wisdom of including the year in the article title. The current conflict in Gaza does not look like being over any time soon, so a change in title is probably warranted. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I think we should merge this and the (currently somewhat shambolic) Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel into a neutral Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war (or whatever the main article ends up getting moved to). Keeping two separate articles is a recipe for POV forking based on original research and synthesis, rather than a collaborative effort to summarize, with due weighting, what reliable sources say - which is what we're supposed to be doing here. PrimaPrime (talk) 10:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. To me the current situation just seems like a WP:FALSEBALANCE situation, editors creating certain articles and other editors creating their equivalent of the other side as a reaction. Though if it was up to me I'd completely delete the genocide by Hamas one and merge this one into the general one for a Palestinian genocide, which is an article in a much better shape and standing. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 11:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is much in common between the two articles to merit a merger? VR _talk 06:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

There is, quite obviously in my view, much in common between the two. They're the same article but about the opposite side in the same war. And both are alleged genocides. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain what is in common? In other words, wouldn't that article just consist of two sections: "allegations against Israel", and "allegations against Hamas". VR _talk 20:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

At least that would provide some balance. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 20:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:FALSEBALANCE. WillowCity^(talk) 23:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I also cannot see what is in common, nor what balance. Hamas is certainly accused of having genocidal intent towards Israel, but I have heard of no one who thinks that October 7 - however indiscriminate and bloody it was - was a realistic attempt to eliminate Israel or the Israeli people. Pincrete (talk) 10:47, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

International law references "genocidal acts" in discussions of genocide. Essentially, genocidal intent + violent action to pursue that intent = genocidal act. Hamas has absolutely been accused of genocidal acts re 7 October. It's why the genocide conventions say "in whole or in part". But that's hardly germane to this discussion. Jbbdude (talk) 02:28, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It would only be false balance if the two sides were presented perfectly equally rather than in proportion to the weight they are given in reliable sources. I imagine we could have a shorter section about accusations of genocide against Hamas re: October 7, followed by a longer section about accusations of genocide against Israel in the ensuing war. PrimaPrime (talk) 07:28, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Request to add Masha Gessen's comments

Masha Gessen, when asked if what is happening in Gaza is a genocide stated, "I think there are some fine distinctions between genocide and ethnic cleansing and I think that there are valid arguments for using both terms". When pressed further they stated, "it is at the very least ethnic cleansing". This was followed soon after controversy surrounding Gessen's receival of the Hannah Arendt Prize over remarks in a New Yorker Article critical of Israeli actions in the strip wherein Gessen compared them to an Eastern European Ghetto "being liquidated" by the Nazis. Nandofan (talk) 03:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Nandofan, added, though in the 'cultural discourse' section since she has no claim to being a legal or similar scholar. Pincrete (talk) 11:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

That makes sense. Thank you Nandofan (talk) 19:42, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@Pincrete thanks, @Nandofan sorry, I should have checked other replies first. Irtapil (talk) 06:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Pincrete *they

Irtapil (talk) 06:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nandofan If you're able to edit the article then I agree that's relevant and endorse you adding it, but it needs a reference.

If you're not able to edit the article, can you suggest where that fits and give a link to a citation we can use please?

Irtapil (talk) 06:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Just saw someone already done. Irtapil (talk) 06:13, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Title Change to "Allegations of genocide by Israel in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war"

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - I can see no consensus for moving at this point, and the discussion has run long enough. The nom raises some quite valid points about accuracy in "war" versus "attack". The oppose !votes are making a point that is not obviously connected to the proposed change in title, or if it is it needed more explanation than they have provided. However, with only one support !vote the necessary consensus is also not really here. This close is without prejudice to opening a further discussion. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 15:03, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

---

Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza → Allegations of genocide by Israel in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war – See below.

Aside from the above discussion of merging this article with Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, the title of this article is just weird. Yes, I assume that some editor(s) with a particular viewpoint/POV chose to name this article as a parallel with that one. However, as many folks have invoked in the aforementioned discussion, that's just a false parallel. The common name for Israel's action is a "war" (Gaza War, Israel-Hamas War, whichever) rather than an "attack". Wikipedia refers to 7 Oct as the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel (and frankly, that genocide allegation Wikipedia article title should be amended to match this "Hamas-led" usage, to maintain consistent terminology across Wikipedia) while it refers to the events encompassing the Israeli response as the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. If this article ends up merged, the proper title would likely be "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war" or, for accuracy and completeness, "Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel and Israel–Hamas war" (a bit long, but more precise and clear). For now, though, as a separate article, calling it the "Israeli attack on Gaza" is inconsistent with the terminology for this event in use elsewhere on Wikipedia and, more significantly, in widespread media coverage and public discourse. Jbbdude (talk) 02:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Please read the 2nd paragraph on 2023 Israel–Hamas war. That may help. Natsuikomin (talk) 13:00, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay, sorry for misunderstanding. Now I know what you meant to say, inconsistency of the naming. Natsuikomin (talk) 13:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Jbbdude The current title is appropriate and consistent.

The Israeli attack on Gaza is an event within a broader war. The genocide claims are specific to that locality and that attack, e.g. Israel are not currently being accused of genocide in Lebanon or the West Bank. There have been attacks in both those areas, but on a different scale.

Likewise Hamas et al. are being accused of genocide on 7 October, but nobody is suggesting that their current attacks on IDF troops invading Gaza are a genocide (at least nobody even remotely credible) and that corresponding page has a similar narrow title.

Irtapil (talk) 06:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Because attack and genocide are simply not the same thing? Natsuikomin (talk) 07:15, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Jbbdude I re read the middle of what you said. But I stand by what I wrote originally. There is only one war; the "war" goes all the way from Lebanon to the Red Sea, but the genocide is in the Gaza strip.

An "attack" is an action within a war, the word "attack" possibly isn't ideal, but "war" isn't a good substitute, because the war is bigger. Do you have any other suggestions?

"Invasion" doesn't fit, because the first clearly genocidal act was cutting off the food and water nearly a month before the invasion. And the day before that there were bombings that some would class as the start.

Irtapil (talk) 06:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Support. "Israeli attack on Gaza" implies that this is a single unilataeral attack rather than an ongoing bilateral war. Furthermore, reliable source do not refer to it as the "2023 Israeli attack on Gaza". The article should be renamed to Allegations of genocide in the Israel-Hamas War Marokwitz (talk) 08:33, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Comment We have Use of human shields by Hamas and Human shields in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and apparently we are missing Use of human shields by Israel to balance things up. Or perhaps we only need the middle one. This sort of titling is common atm, we have Palestinian genocide accusation too but not a Israeli genocide accusation except as a redirect to the former, Idk why. The current title seems already to refer to an allegation against Israel without the need to further alter it.Selfstudier (talk) 11:24, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Strong Oppose. The overwhelmingly vast majority of the victims in this conflict have been innocent Palestinian civilians. David A (talk) 07:38, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. As per @David A. Natsuikomin (talk) 08:32, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First sentence of background is awkward

First sentence of background reads very strangely, "Background - After Israel began the bombing of Gaza following the 7 October attacks, some Palestinians immediately expressed concern that this violence would be used to justify genocide against Palestinians by Israel."

But I'm stumped on how to fix it. Can a better writer than I am please have a go at turning it into something cohesive?

It looks like multiple people have added three opinionated words each? All of the points there probably should be included, but connected better and with a more even tone.

Irtapil (talk) 06:07, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Flaws seem to be that it isn't only Palestinians, it isn't now only concerns about what would happen, it's about deeds rather than only about justification. Pincrete (talk) 07:20, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I've tried to fix, I don't know whether this works for others. Pincrete (talk) 07:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Civilian attack infobox

The article has acquired a civilian attack infobox. It is much less muddled, PoV and synthy than that of the related 'historic' article infobox. Still, is this apt for an article about accusations? Pincrete (talk) 06:51, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I would say not. PrimaPrime (talk) 07:31, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Considering various other genocide accusation articles, including specifically in contexts of war, also use the same infobox for a brief summary, it would seem to be the best one we have until a specific one is created, and would be in line to how we treat other articles of a similar nature. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

This is less synthy than the related infobox, but how do you decide what are the motives for an allegation? Who says that the motives are Anti-Palestinianism or Settler colonialism? Finally, where in the article are these motives expounded?Pincrete (talk) 10:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

It may be better to leave that section blank until we have more comprehensive sources that state the alleged motives. Though for a the three motives listed, on the first that is easy to cite to the statements of Israeli officials on declaring war against Hamas and Gaza. The second you could cite to previous statements in recent years from government officials and politicians, such as declaring Palestine and Palestinians do not exist, alongside statements that declare the West Bank and Gaza as Israeli territory, and the dehumanising language used against Palestinians both before October 2023 and since. For the third point, you'd cite it to such papers as:

• Wolfe, Patrick (21 December 2006). "Settler colonialism and the elimination of the native". Journal of Genocide Research. 8 (4): 387–409. doi:10.1080/14623520601056240.
• Rashed, Haifa; Short, Damien (2012). "Genocide and settler colonialism: can a Lemkin-inspired genocide perspective aid our understanding of the Palestinian situation?". The International Journal of Human Rights. 16 (8): 1142–1169. doi:10.1080/13642987.2012.735494. S2CID 145422458.
• Shaw, Martin (2013). "Palestine and Genocide: An International Historical Perspective Revisited". Holy Land Studies. 12 (1): 1–7. doi:10.3366/hls.2013.0056.

You could also cite it to any of the news pieces written which cover the treatment of Palestinians in the Palestinian territories by Israeli settlers. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

"Gaza genocide" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Gaza genocide has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 17 § Gaza genocide until a consensus is reached. The sum of all human knowledge (talk) 13:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

"We will eliminate everything"

This is a mistranslation and misinformation. The actual quote is Gaza will not return to what it was before. There will be no Hamas. We will eliminate it all. [1] --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:30, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I've modified so as to report the initial quote - and its correction rather than simply linking to an article saying "the quote was wrong".Pincrete (talk) 10:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

That is NYT correction (ie they reviewed the thing again) of their initial report so they believe it to be "everything". Selfstudier (talk) 11:13, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Suggested edit: Main article link for Defense for Children International-Palestine et al v. Biden et al

After the heading === Center for Constitutional Rights lawsuit ===

I request that a link to the main article for this lawsuit be inserted on the line immediately following that heading.

Main article: Defense for Children International-Palestine et al v. Biden et al

Lovelano (talk) 07:43, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:16, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

More sources

Some more sources

• Kestler-D'Amours, Jillian (9 January 2024). "Israel's war on Gaza and the 'obligation to prevent genocide'". Al Jazeera.
• "Nicaragua taking Germany, Canada, UK, Netherlands to ICJ for genocide". Al Mayadeen. 5 February 2024.
• "Former UNWRA Spokesperson Says UK & US Complicit in Gaza Genocide". Novara Media. 5 February 2024.

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Would the following sources also be acceptable to add?

https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/

https://www.972mag.com/israel-police-repression-protests-gaza/

David A (talk) 08:37, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Link to Channel 14

Channel 14 is mentioned twice in the article. It is not clear what / who this channel is. It would be better to make the first reference a link to the Wikipedia article about Channel 14. 86.139.218.163 (talk) 13:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. — Pincrete (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit request 13 February 2024

Description of suggested change: Please add a wikilink for "Genocidal intent" to the phrase "intent to destroy" in the first paragraph, so that it reads [[Genocidal intent|intent to destroy]].

Diff:

−

ORIGINAL_TEXT

+

CHANGED_TEXT

188.176.174.30 (talk) 10:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. 188.176.174.30 (talk) 11:40, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Recent edits that detract from the point of this particular page

Hello.

These linked edits by a very recently approved extended confirmed rights editor seem to distort the context of this particular page into prioritising the crimes of Hamas over the statistically enormously greater crimes of the state of Israel, which are the entire point of this page, and the initial crimes of Hamas have already been more throroughly dealt with in the "Israel–Hamas war" page that was already linked to at the start of this page.

As such, I would much prefer if we revert this page to how it was organised previously. David A (talk) 09:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Very much agreed. I agree that they distortionary and essentially biased obfuscation. Even if others do not agree, the edits do remain entirely tangential at the very best and have no place in the lead. FJDEACKB (talk) 12:44, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I think that it is probably fine to revert those edits then. David A (talk) 20:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree. Pincrete (talk) 06:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I added a redirect to this website from the Aaron Bushnell section of political self immolations. I think it provides readers with the most appropriate context and it's an abundant site ZeanIkLaurie (talk) 06:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Rhetoric from politicians in the United States

What does this section have to do with anything? Ron DeSantis and other American wingnuts don't speak for the Israeli government, they aren't proof of genocidal intent. jftsang 13:03, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, as far as I am aware, the Israeli government is extremely closely allied in major policy issues with the politicians of both the main U.S. parties. [2] [3] David A (talk) 14:49, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

It is, but then again people like RDS aren't actually in charge of American foreign or military affairs, so it's hard to see how that applies. If it were Biden, that'd be different. jftsang 10:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree. We don't need to quote every nut who decides to comment about the Middle East situation, especially if it concerns legal aspects. Just because someone was shown on Fox News or CNN doesn't mean it must go into an encyclopaedia. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the section, as no reason was presented why the internal electoral rhetoric in the US should be given prominence in the section about legal aspects of Israeli actions. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:05, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Never mind then. David A (talk) 15:04, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Should the information be moved to the following page instead? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war David A (talk) 16:18, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, looks like a good target. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Would you be willing to handle it, or should we wait for more confirmations first? David A (talk) 16:38, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe someone else could do it... I somehow don't find it rewarding to spend my time on DeSantis's speeches. Sorry! — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:25, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

The point is it was deemed prevalent and noteworthy enough to include in the article Palestinian genocide accusation, where the "Rhetoric" section is all bar 1 (small) paragraph is about the 2023-2024 conflict. As that article is meant to cover the broader and full history of the genocide accusation, the commentary on politicians complicity and also inciting genocide is better suited being in this article. And, a single day for a "discussion" to be decided, especially on hot articles like this seems a bit premature, to say the least. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not personally mind if the section in question is returned, but what do you think about my suggestion above? David A (talk) 19:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

That could work, then reduce the text in the two genocide accusation pages done to a brief overview, while linking to the relevant section of United States support for Israel in the Israel–Hamas war. I do believe it's unwieldly for the genocide accusation articles in it's current state, and this is after I've already been through and condensed the text from it's previous even-more expansive state. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kashmiri and Jftsang: Would that solution be acceptable for you? David A (talk) 06:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

It seems like the other, more on-topic, page organises such comments more concisely and in chronological order though, so that format likely needs to be adhered to there. David A (talk) 06:24, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Add United States to accused list

The United States and Joe Biden are frequently accused of complicitly or outright participation in the genocide and South Africa has considered opening a case against them. Should they be added to the accused list? Bill3602 (talk) 21:03, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Looking through the infoboxes for all the other genocides/accusations, there's not a perfect match for having those accused of complicity in the infobox. The closest is Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russian invasion of Ukraine with Belarus, but there Belarus is actively engaged in what can be labelled an act of genocide (forcible transfer of children), so while I have no problem personally adding the US to the accused, convincing others it fits in that section of the infobox may be more difficult. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

The inclusion of Belarus in the infobox there is sourced to a tweet. The body also mentions a Yale report, although the report doesn't make genocide claims. For now, my understanding is that children were transferred away from the battlefield as is the normal practice in such circumstances (see e.g. Evacuations of children in Germany during World War II, Evacuations of civilians in Britain during World War II, Evacuations of civilians in Japan during World War II). — kashmīrī ^TALK 15:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

The statistical support among the population of Israel for preventing all transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza

The following public opinion poll by the Israel Democracy Institute reveals that 68% of the population of Israel supports preventing all international transfer of humanitarian aid to the population of Gaza. That information seems extremely noteworthy to include in this page.

https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52976

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/02/over-2-3-of-jewish-israelis-oppose-humanitarian-aid-to-palestinians-starving-in-gaza/

David A (talk) 17:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

There's also Human Rights Watch accusing Israel of blocking aid, as well as for about the past month Israeli civilians have been blocking aid from entering Gaza. While this can be evidence towards "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", we'd really need a source to link these opinions and actions to genocide for a solid citation. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 00:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, the issue here as I perceive it is that if 68% of the population of Israel actively wants all of the 2.3 million Palestinians to starve to death, that also puts significant pressure on their government to act out that desire, and makes that part of the Israeli population at least partially complicit in the genocide that is currently occurring, so it seems important to mention somewhere in the Wikipedia pages covering this horrible situation. David A (talk) 04:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

57% maintain the bombing so far is not sufficient and has to be increased, another 35% think that the IDF's bombing volume is more or less adequate. The problem with these things, as with all polls, is that Israeli analysts of their country's war reportage conclude that very little of the realities on the ground in Gaza is covered. Complicity implies full awareness. Civilians rarely grasp in any depth the full scale of what their representatives do, ostensibly in their name. Of course in a digital age, all we see is accessible in Israel, but but ultimately the focus should be on those who plan, and execute these operations, otherwise one falls into the same error Israeli leaders themselves make, of confounding all people under Hamas rule as responsible for whatever has been done by Hamas. Collective guilt is a very dangerous concept.Nishidani (talk) 05:02, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

That is a good point. David A (talk) 06:15, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

With Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International's statements on the matter, I've added a section, also detailing the survey. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:32, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Rationale for name change

The absolutely abhorrent actions taken by the IDF, as well as the clear genocidal intent expressed by Israeli cabinet ministers, are CLEAR justification for the name change. To displace millions of people, to tell them to move to specific zones, only to then indiscriminately bombard those zones. To bomb hospitals, schools, areas known to only be home to civilians. To murder thousands of children. The news today of Israel murdering civilians who were gathering aid. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of stories which justify this name change.

We must, of course, not let emotion dictate edits on Wikipedia, but this entire genocidal campaign by Israel is beyond disgusting. Any person who still defends these actions is completely morally bankrupt, and it is astonishing to learn of how many deplorable people are amongst us in this world.

There is no other word for what Israel is doing besides genocide. Given other examples on the list of genocides, it is again astonishing that this "conflict" is not included.

I am sickened. Everyone should be sickened. We cannot continue to endorse Israeli lies on Wikipedia, and cannot continue to peddle the narrative that Israel hold some kind of moral superiority in this situation. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 18:27, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Davidlofgren1996: Look, I agree with you that what Israel is doing in Gaza right now likely amounts to genocide, but considering how contentious this topic is and the arbitration remedy associated with it, I really don't think it's a good idea to change the name without consensus. I'm not going to revert it because frankly I just don't feel like going through the motions to sort this out and get consensus one way or the other, but I would advise you notify relevant Wikiprojects and editors of articles relevant to this topic via the respective talk pages of the Wikiprojects and articles. Arctic Circle System (talk) 20:53, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Davidlofgren1996: I've reverted your move. C'mon now, use your head. Your move changes it from "allegations" to "attempted", a move that would obviously be controversial. We don't "be bold" for controversial moves, we start RM discussions (WP:PCM). Hey man im josh (talk) 21:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not really controversial to anyone with eyes. But fine, RM it is, so we can be reminded of how many disgusting people exist on this website. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 21:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

@Davidlofgren1996: Stating that the nature of that move is not controversial makes me question whether you should be moving pages at all. Take the sensationalism and "feelings" aspect out of your comments when discussing contentious topics, it's a recipe for disaster and only serves to inflame the discussions. Hey man im josh (talk) 21:11, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Please do not make such an obviously controversial decision without even bothering to consult other editors first. We must first build consensus before moving the article like this. Unilateral edits like these are only going to intensify the argument drastically, and I doubt it's going to stay up before an admin reverts it and blocks you from editing the page for a while. – Howard🌽33 21:08, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 29 February 2024

Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza → Attempted genocide by Israel in their 2023 attack on Gaza – As above. The actions taken by Israel over the last few months amount to, at very least, an attempted genocide. The number of those killed by Israel is now over 30,000 - more than a few "confirmed" genocides on the list of genocides - and Israel shows no sign of stopping their genocidal campaign against the people of Gaza. The list of war crimes is only increasing, and if things continue the way they are, it will eventually amount to a total genocide of the Palestinian people.

As Wikipedians, we are not here to peddle Israeli narrative, and must show the facts for what they are. Israel has openly declared its intent to destroy Gaza, and by displacing millions of people, moving them further and further south, to then continue to bombard areas they declared as "safe" is nothing short of barbarianism. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

Deliberately targeting civilians in this manner, with none of the "restraint" that they claim to be displaying, is a clear sign that they intend to kill every single person in Gaza. This is not particularly refutable, hence I did not see the move as "controversial", as [edit: it fits the 1948 United Nations Genocide Convention definition of a genocide]; there is no other way to describe what is currently happening. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 21:23, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

If you didn't see that page move as controversial and likely to generate pushback then you shouldn't be moving pages, plain and simple. Hey man im josh (talk) 21:27, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not believe that, given the nature of the actions that have been taken, and the clear intent shown by Israel, this specific move was controversial, as it meets the definition of (at very least) an attempted genocide. This, as mentioned in my rationale, is in line with other genocides on Wikipedia. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 21:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

To be clear then @Davidlofgren1996, do not invoke WP:BEBOLD to make moves like this in a contentious area without a RM discussion first. It's not helpful and it's likely to create a lot of drama and inflame discussions. Hey man im josh (talk) 21:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

If it is within your powers as an admin, I request that you immediately close this discussion and re-open the move proposal under the same name at Gaza humanitarian crisis (2023–present). – Howard🌽33 15:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Is it possible to move this RM discussion to the Talk page of Gaza humanitarian crisis? As I said below, this article primarily documents the allegations made by various organisations and people against the State of Israel, as well as academic and media discussion. For the actual event itself, it would make more sense to move Gaza humanitarian crisis to Gaza Genocide, if a consensus is reached that the event does indeed follow Wikipedia's guidelines for calling it a genocide. – Howard🌽33 14:35, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

May I add that we can have two separate articles even if we describe what is happening at Gaza as a genocide. See Holodomor and Holodomor genocide question. Academic and legal discussion would not end after a Wikipedia RM or shortly after. We will thus have to make sure we give this article an appropriate title that does not overlap with any other right now or in the future. Also I want to note I think the humanitarian crisis article should be moved based on a RM on its talk page and not here, just in case. Super Ψ Dro 15:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

If we will be keeping consistent with the Holodomor articles, we should then move this article to "Gazan genocide question". And if we do end it up describing it as such, then the article for "Gaza Humanitarian crisis" shall be moved to "Gazan genocide". I would, however, like someone else to create a move proposal, since I do not really understand how to start a move proposal. – Howard🌽33 15:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Survey (Requested move 29 February 2024)

• Support. Openly intending to destroy gaza, evacuating 2.3 million people to an area now under attack, putting hospitals under siege, attacking Palestinians evacuating Gaza City and airstriking schools isnt "Allegations of genocide" its genocide. Alternative name proposal is Gaza genocide, which already redirects here. Lukt64 (talk) 23:39, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

  Would also fully support this alternate name proposal. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 23:58, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Would fully oppose. Super Ψ Dro 11:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support given the sheer amount of evidence. Salmoonlight (talk) 00:03, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support. Call a spade a spade. There are enough reliable resources that now refer to it as genocide. In the Rohingya genocide, about 25,000 people were killed. In the Palestinian genocide, over 30,000 people and counting have been confirmed killed, plus several thousand more missing people are most probably dead under the rubble.Crampcomes (talk) 00:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support. The evidence has been clear for a long time now, and it was further confirmed when the ICJ accepted the plausibility of "at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa" under the Genocide Convention in the case of Israeli genocide against Palestinians. Nori2001 (talk) 00:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Mixed, overall support. I'd say it qualifies as a genocide, and has been recognized as such by multiple countries and organizations (including parts of the UN), and has been recognized as plausible by the ICJ.
  

  I do have some reservations.
  

  1. Reliable sources haven't referred to it as genocide yet. They will likely change their tune if the ICJ rules against Israel, but we have to wait.
  

  2. Neutrality. Until sources and the ICJ say so, especially since it's a sensitive subject, it's a bit hard and will likely be very controversial.
  

  3. The proposed name. If we're going to change it, go all in. "Attempted genocide" is stupid when sources either aren't saying it is, denying it, or saying it is. No one is saying it's attempted.
  

  However. There is some precedent for this kind of thing. In 2016/2017, even when sources were describing the Rohingya genocide as massacres and a crisis, and the ICC hadn't ruled on it yet, we still named it a genocide as multiple countries recognized it as such, and the UN said it was plausible. (1) Does this not meet the same criteria? I say it would. Interpretation matters. If a bunch of countries say it's genocide, and international orgs say it is/could be, then I think there's a realistic case for this.
  

  Summary: I generally support the change, but it's a touchy situation, and it may be better to wait it out until the ICJ ruling. There is however precedent of Wikipedia editor's handling of the Rohingya genocide, and as such, I support this. Personisinsterest (talk) 01:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  I would also like to say that Western sources may be bias. Reliable sources supporting the claim of genocide may be found internationally. Personisinsterest (talk) 01:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment, while I find the arguments above compelling I am worried about WP:NPOV issues with the proposed title. I would like to see evidence that international sources generally treat what's going on as a conclusive genocide and not just accusations of genocide. A full ruling in South Africa v. Israel may also be relevent. Esolo5002 (talk) 01:37, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  A full ruling is expected to take years, at least according to Reuters. But, I believe it's the best standard for this kind of case. – Howard🌽33 08:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:NODEADLINE. We can wait if necessary. Super Ψ Dro 11:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support although if there is so much evidence that it is simply a genocide and not "attempted," I think it would be far more warranted to change it to something like Gaza genocide. GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 02:25, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment - (commenting as editor who proposed the name change) I was wary to go all in with Gaza genocide at first, but as I can see other editors above agree that it is a more appropriate name, I’d like to formally change the proposed move to reflect this, as it would be more in line with similar articles. Would the best move be to wait out the debate to see how many people would also support Gaza genocide as the proposed name? It’s 2:51 am so I will most likely not reply until later in the morning, but if someone can formally change this, I would be appreciative, thanks. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 02:53, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support with comment — I'm generally skeptical of putting qualifying verbiage into article titles when it's not justified, and I don't see it as justified here. The standard for accepting the notability of a phenomenon should, in my opinion, run through an accumulation of high-quality expert sources, and on this issue one can look to…

• Nine scholarly articles in the Journal of Genocide Research, none of which as best I can tell, argue that no genocide is happening in the current war. (To be clear, this is an expert forum, so it may not be a full peer-review process.)
• A joint statement by the highest level UN human rights experts.
• A joint letter by experts in the field of genocide.
• Other statements like the Lemkin Institute's "Statement on Why We Call the Israeli Attack on Gaza Genocide"

Reviewing these sources has reminded me that many such authoritative statements do have a conditional or future tense, so maybe the proposed title is correct, for now.--Carwil (talk) 05:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support, the statements of leaders and actions of the military align with this. Albert Mond (talk) 07:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: What exactly is the Wikipedia policy on calling something a genocide? Do Wikipedia editors themselves have to review the facts of a case and evaluate if it meets the Genocide Convention, or do we call an event a genocide if and only if reliable sources call it as such? – Howard🌽33 08:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  Secondly, this article is primarily concerned with covering accusations, allegations, and views of various organizations and people during this event. An RM discussion like this would be better for Gaza humanitarian crisis (2023–present), which primarily covers the facts of the case. – Howard🌽33 08:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Howardcorn33 We can't deem anything genocide, terrorist, ourselves, that's banned as original research. We need high quality reliable sources. Doug Weller talk 09:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  In that case, the entire argument for moving the article may fall apart. As it appears, Lofgren's (and several other's in this discussion) arguement is based on his judgement of the facts of the case and does not consider what reliable sources actually deem it. According to Carwil's comment, RS have deemed a potential for genocide to happen here, so perhaps we could instead rename the article to "Potential genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza". – Howard🌽33 09:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  An argument for potential is a lot more reasonable, but alleged is better because of the wide range that potential can mean: I could potentially win the lottery next week, but no one is alleging that I will. FortunateSons (talk) 22:54, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. The overly emotional and victimising Israeli-Palestinian conflict topic area strikes again. As usual arguments here are based on appeals to emotions and clearly personal points of view. As Wikipedians, we are not here to peddle Israeli narrative; Deliberately targeting civilians in this manner, with none of the "restraint" that they claim to be displaying, is a clear sign that they intend to kill every single person in Gaza.

One thing is claiming that evidently careless Israeli actions in Gaza have amounted to a genocide, which can be argued, and another is that their intention since the very start has been to erase the people of Gaza. What a ridiculous claim and I cannot believe it is actually being supported. Could someone explain to me what benefits does this proposed title carry? It has no additional informational value. To me it would appear that it only serves to fit a point of view. It also finds no consensus among reliable sources. The current title does and is perfectly neutral. To do something as inflammatory as referring to something as a "genocide" with appeals to emotion rather than objective arguments about what do reliable sources say is unbelievable. Have sources suddenly changed their narrative? I don't know, because this RM is not based on that. Super Ψ Dro 11:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe it would be prudent to gather a list of RS and tally up which mention a genocide, a potential genocide, and not a potential genocide. – Howard🌽33 12:07, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

This comment is, frankly, sickeningly apathetic. Dropping your phone is "careless", murdering over 30,000 people, 25,000+ of which are women and children (according to the United States) is NOT "careless".

... and another is that their intention since the very start has been to erase the people of Gaza. What a ridiculous claim and I cannot believe it is actually being supported. It is abundantly clear that this is the aim of Israel. Feel free to read through the database of over five hundred deplorable statements made by Israelis in positions of power here.

The current title is not neutral, and does not accurately reflect the current situation in Gaza. I think the sources provided by Carwil above give high-quality expert opinions on the matter, as Carwil states.

What is happening in Gaza is a genocide by definition of the word. We have expert opinion to back this up. Why should the title not reflect the truth? Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 13:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

For context, 2 sources provided by Carwil, namely that from the UN and University of Notre Dame are at best raising concern of possible genocide in Gaza. While some high-profile politicians have straight out calling Israel guilty of genocide, they are not really expert on the topic. While an "allegation of genocide" is already a very serious issue, if we want the title to reflect more closely of what the experts are thinking, I think something like "Risk of genocide in Gaza" would be a more appealing option to a more editors. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk · contri.) 13:27, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Like I said before, we need to conduct a proper survey of reliable sources to see if they deem it a "Genocide" or a "Possible Genocide". We are Wikipedia, not the World Court, so we shall follow what the reliable sources actually call it, not what we judge it to be. – Howard🌽33 13:35, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Howardcorn33 and Sameboat. Very heavy sourcing plus evidence that contrary views are minoritary/fringe will be needed to defend that there is indisputedly genocidal intent from the part of Israel as the proposed move suggests. The only source provided by Davidlofgren1996 in their reply to me is an apparent list of declarations that we Wikipedians cannot synthesize or use to take conclusions of. That would be the job of secondary sources. I am not opposed to "risk of genocide" if editors deem it appropriate. But I still don't get what's the problem with the current title. To me it perfectly reflects the article's contents, which I remind is legal and academic discussion of Israeli crimes in Gaza rather than the crimes themselves (an argument already raised up above by Howardcorn33). Super Ψ Dro 13:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus building a table of the sources from the article should have it posted here between 8 and 9 pm GMT. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:00, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

1. - Lula de Silva - Jacobin - Genocide
2. - Omer Bartov - NYT - Genocidal intent, risk of genocide
3. - 800 scholars in law, conflict studies, and genocide studies - Third World Approaches to International Law Review - Risk of genocide
4. - Abdelwahab El-Affendi - Journal of Genocide Research - Genocide
5. - 100+ Global Rights Groups - Common Dreams - Genocide
6. - Mark Levene - Journal of Genocide Research - Genocide
7. - Zoé Samudzi - Journal of Genocide Research - Genocide
8. - Martin Shaw - Journal of Genocide Research - Genocide
9. - Elyse Semerdjian - Journal of Genocide Research - Genocide
10. - Raz Segal - Jewish Currents - Genocide
11. - 100 Civil Society Organisations and Genocide Scholars - Al-Mezan Centre for Human Rights - Genocide
12. - Palestinian UN Envoy - Reuters - Genocide
13. - Human Rights Watch - Human Rights Watch - Failure to prevent and punish Genocide
14. - Amnesty International - Amnesty International - Failure to prevent and punish Genocide
15. - Michael Fakhri - The Guardian - Genocide
16. - Ernesto Verdeja - TIME - gravitating towards a "genocidal campaign"
17. - Center for Constitutional Rights - The Intercept - Genocide
18. - 47 scholars in the fields of history, law, and criminology - International State Crime Initiative - Genocide
19. - Israeli Public Figures represented by Human Rights Lawyer Michael Sfard - The Guardian - Ignoring incitement to genocide
20. - Ben Kiernan - Time - Does not meet legal definition for genocide
21. - Adam Jones - Vox - Causing Article 2, Clause C
22. - Dov Waxman - Vox - Risk of genocide
23. - Norman Finkelstein - GV Wire - Genocide
24. - Eva Illouz - Le Monde - Not genocide
25. - Eva Illouz - The Forward - Incitement to genocide
26. - Organization of Islamic Countries, The Arab League, and 7 other countries supporting South Africa - Al Jazeera - Genocide
27. - Venezuela - Mehr News - Genocide
28. - Australia, Austria, Czechia, France, Germany, Guatemala, Hungary, Israel, Italy, Paraguay, USA, UK - Various prominent news outlets - Not genocide
29. - Colombia - Associated Press - Genocide
30. - Genocide Watch - Genocide Watch - Risk of genocide
31. - Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention - Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention - Genocide
32. - Norman J. W. Goda - Quillette - Not genocide
33. - Jeffrey C. Herf - Quillette - Not genocide
34. - Cuba - Al Jazeera - Genocide

On counting the statements from different countries in the total this puts it at:

• 30 sources say it's genocide
• 7 say it's a Risk, Maybe, or Partial
• 16 say it is not (only counting Eva Illouz's initial statement saying it is not genocide)

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:39, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Personally I would see this as proof of there not being an universal or widely accepted interpretation. There are more calling it a genocide than I expected though. It might have increased over time, and might continue to do so. But in this case it would be appropriate to propose a title of this type only in some months next time. The current one is an appropriate middle ground for something with several main views. Super Ψ Dro 23:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I would just point to take note that some of those sources in labelling this as genocide are counting dozens to hundreds of people in the relevant academic fields. Which is not present in the sources stating it is not. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 23:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for surveying the various media outlets. It appears that slightly more than 50% of the sources gathered directly acknowledge it as a genocide. However, seeing that there is still not unanimous agreement among RS, I recommend the following:

• That Gaza humanitarian crisis be moved to "Gaza genocide", with the following lead sentence: "During the ongoing Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip, the inhabitants of Gaza have been experiencing a humanitarian crisis, widely described as either a potential(insert citations) or an active(insert citations) genocide perpetrated by the Israeli Defense Forces."
• That Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza be moved to "Gaza genocide question", in line with both Holodomor and Holodomor genocide question.

– Howard🌽33 23:02, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I oppose this. We aren't obliged to follow other cases' standard practices. Because again I see no problem with the current title. Also I don't think a majority (over 50%) means there is academic consensus. We should be looking to get close to unanimity. We already follow values like these at Wikipedia, see WP:NOTAVOTE, a few strong arguments can override a majority of opposite ones. I recommend that we look into this in some months, or even later. There is no rush. The final veredict of the international investigation is probably going to be the most respected authority on this topic in the future. Not implying that things might not get clearer before that though. Super Ψ Dro 23:07, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd personally like to rename this article "Gaza genocide question" per WP:CONCISE. As for Gaza Humanitarian Crisis, I suppose it should stay as such (although I hardly think 2023-present is necessary) considering that there is not total unanimity. What exactly is the percentage of agreement that we should consider "unanimous" anyway? – Howard🌽33 23:22, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Anyway I really would like the admins to close this discussion down so we can migrate to discuss this on Gaza humanitarian crisis. I'll put my vote here for now. – Howard🌽33 23:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

What was the methodology behind building this list? BilledMammal (talk) 22:13, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: All sources currently used within this article that provide a decision on what is occurring in relation to it being a genocide, plus a couple of sources that declare it is not a genocide which were removed from the article due to being published in a GUNREL source, and pulling the states that opposed South Africa's case at the ICJ from the article on that matter. I can pull from more sources should people want, as I have a list of sources to work through adding to this article (both saying it is and is not a genocide), but as is the case here the majority of these as of yet not used sources do declare Israel's actions as genocidal or part of a genocide. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think that’s a useful metric; there is no reason to believe that the sources in our article are representative - and given we have sources explicitly stating scholars are split on this question, I would suggest they are not and the fact they are not is an indication of NPOV issues with this article. BilledMammal (talk) 21:56, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: This article is not concerned with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza itself, it is concerned with covering the allegations, statements, and opinions of various organizations and people, including also academic discourse on the genocide question. I instead propose moving this article to Gaza genocide question, per WP:CONCISE. I am still waiting for an admin to close down this discussion and re-open it somewhere more appropriate such as Gaza humanitarian crisis. – Howard🌽33 23:36, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose It is far too contentious to put in wikivoice that Israel is attempting genocide in Gaza, and it isn't supported by the majority sources. Users that are just opining "this is a genocide" without citing sources should be ignored. To move this title to the proposed one would clearly fail Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(events)#Maintaining_neutral_point_of_view. The closer should heed the guidance following passage mentioned in the Naming conventions (events) article: If there is no common name for the event and no generally accepted descriptive word, use a descriptive name that does not carry POV implications. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:26, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

  The majority of reliable sources, as shown in discussion above do call this a genocide. Across a variety of reliable source outlets, including thousands of relevant experts, plus leading figures in the field of genocide research. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

  Is a simple majority of sources enough to deem it a genocide? Or must it be a unanimity? – Howard🌽33 16:04, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

There is no fixed amount. It should be an amount large enough to convince editors that this should be considered a genocide. This doesn't mean that all editors must agree either, but that consensus is achieved. I don't think there's currently consensus among sources to reach a new consensus here, and opposes by other editors would indicate this as well. Super Ψ Dro 16:28, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I acknowledge that the vast breadth and depth of those who have declared this genocide will not achieve consensus among editors, but just correcting the record for those who claim it "isn't supported by the majority". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 16:34, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose The current title is the most neutral. Being accused of genocide is not the same thing as attempting genocide. Strongly oppose 'Gaza genocide' until the lead sentence can definitively state that "The State of Israel is committing (has committed) genocide..." Some1 (talk) 02:22, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. To call this "attempted genocide" or "genocide" in wikivoice we need a consensus among reliable sources that it is an attempted genocide or a genocide. No such consensus exists, and doing so in its absence would be a clear WP:NPOV violation. BilledMammal (talk) 02:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose no consensus of sources. This proposal is neither evidence-based nor policy-based, and most of the votes are devoid of the same. This CTOP has been experiencing things like this all too much lately. I also agree with Super Dromeosaurus and Hemiauchenia. JM (talk) 04:36, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Need to have that it is genocide from an authorative source like the ICJ or for lots of time to pass and it be agreed in scholarly sources. NadVolum (talk) 11:29, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

  The majority of reliable sources, as shown in discussion above do call this a genocide. Across a variety of reliable source outlets, including thousands of relevant experts, plus leading figures in the field of genocide research. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. It is a serious violation of NPOV to refer to these allegations as facts while the CIJ oredered Israel to take measures to prevent [future] acts that could be considered genocidal, and did not order Israel to suspend the military campaign. Had the "attempt" been so obvious, the court's decision would have state it and its orders to Israel would have been much more serious. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 12:48, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

  This not only fails in understanding how the ICJ has ruled in previous genocide cases, where they had meagre suggestions given, when subsequently multiple individuals and parties were convicted of the crimes of genocide, and ignores the entire scholarly side of examination, which provides the reasoning for most cases of genocide to be labelled as such. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:28, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support. Most of the world is outraged at the scale of Israeli atrocities in Gaza, which include the murder of thousands upon thousands of children; and "genocide" has become the common term for what is happening there. WP:IAR was written for occasions like this, when we should use common sense and not be dissuaded by a pedantic interpretation of the rules from calling something by what it is. There is nothing wrong with the article title Gaza genocide. NightHeron (talk) 17:32, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support: Per arguments of user Davidlofgren1996 in the nomination and list of 30+ sources given by Cdjp1 in the survey.

As of present, more than 30,320 Gazans have been killed, 7,800 are missing and more than 71,000 Gazans have been wounded. Out of more than 30,300 people killed; more than 12,600 are children. Approximately 1.9 million Palestinians are forcibly displaced. The ongoing military campaign appears to be genocidal.

Social media is full of anger and shock about the atrocities occuring in Gaza. When I googled "Gaza genocide", there are plenty of websites, journals and articles accusing Israel of perpetrating a genocide.

Some of the sources I read:

• "Israel is intentionally starving Palestinians and should be held accountable for war crimes – and genocide, according to the UN’s leading expert on the right to food."

  ("Israel is deliberately starving Palestinians, UN rights expert says", "The Guardian", 27 February 2024)
• "A Textbook Case of Genocide", "Jewish currents.org", 13 October 2023
• "The Limits of Accusing Israel of Genocide", "The New Yorker", 7 February 2024

Although if there are counter-arguments, I would want to read it and assess. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 20:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, I don't think this is the correct article to move. – Howard🌽33 20:54, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

People are misunderstanding the purpose of this article. It is not to document the ongoing humanitarian crisis unfolding currently in Gaza, which has legitimate reason to be classified as a genocide. This article is about the accusations and discussion by various figures on if the crisis should be considered a genocide. Please stop adding votes here. Move this discussion to Gaza humanitarian crisis (2023–present).. – Howard🌽33 20:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. It is considered doubtful, including by RS, judges at the ICJ, legal scholars, governments and many others that this is a genocide. Additionally, the word attempted implies that they couldn’t commit a genocide if they wanted to - a fact untrue about most modern militaries in the vast majority of conflicts in the last century, and definitely true about an alleged nuclear power. Lastly, this is simply not supported by RS: many still speak of accusations or charges, not of an (un-) successful attempt. If the ICJ (and preferably, the SC) agree with this in a few years, it is definitely worthy of debate, but otherwise such a title change is simply not supported by policy. FortunateSons (talk) 22:51, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

  There is also a practical problem with the (as far as I can tell, well made) list of sources: those that consider “not genocide” so obvious that discussing it is pointless, those in different languages and from different areas (like Israeli, German, etc.), those that make statements that provide limited value (saying that there are allegations and not taking a position) and things of limited relevance but high value, such as the statement by the German ICJ judge, which I didn’t find (but may have overlooked).

  Last but not least, IAR is highly inappropriate here: as long as a significant amount of people, governments and scholars (and many RS) are denying the existence of a genocide or making inconclusive statements, you can’t just skip important policies and discourse by using IAR. FortunateSons (talk) 23:04, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: I second FortunateSons's point about the list of sources. Looking at a few RSes off the top of my head (nytimes, bbc, apnews, guardian), none of them refer to this as a genocide in their own voice. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 02:55, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. I've looked at the list compiled by user Cdjp1. Some of them, like the opinion of Nicolas Maduro who is well known for respecting human rights, should be ignored. However this is not the only problem with the list. Looking at sources that explicitly say that there is no genocide produces a warped picture. There are hundreds of news articles which describe the events in Gaza without saying that there is a genocide going on, and this approach ignores them. Alaexis_¿question? 14:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support as per Lukt64's argument and Cdjp1's sources. If anything, this is a classic case of a state first explicitly attempting ethnic cleansing (per this and per Avi Dichter's "we're rolling out Gaza Nakra 2023" comment) and as it cannot accomplish it (Egypt not opening the border - yet) resorts to genocide. BubbleBabis (talk) 16:52, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
• Strongest support possible, including a possible move to 2023–2024 Palestinian genocide, given that the bar to terming something a genocide has consistently been low on Wikipedia – a small number of reliable sources was enough as evidenced by other events included in Template:Genocide navbox, incl. e.g. such questionable "genocides" as Transgender genocide. Kashmiri (talk) 15:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

  To clarify: transgender genocide is not included as a genocide in the Template:Genocide navbox, but is instead listed in the "Terms" section, which lists concepts, terms, and ideas, that are not necessarily part of genocides but are related and do fall under the remit of genocide studies. Better examples for @Kashmiri:'s point would be the inclusion of the Destruction of Carthage, the Asiatic Vespers, or the Gallic Wars, which are all listed as genocides in the navbox. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:06, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as the new title would be a violation of WP:NPOV (i.e. WP:WIKIVOICE: we should not state contested assertions as facts in Wikipedia's voice). There is a range of views among experts on whether or not Israel's actions meet the legal definition of genocide -- for a singular example, see the nuanced mix of opinions expressed by experts in this TIME article. This is equally important for article titles, which should be neutral unless there is clearly a common name for the topic, which is not the case here. WP:NDESC therefore applies: "allegations" is appropriate as there is an accusation of illegality that has not been proven. Editors would do well to remember that no matter how clear they feel the evidence for genocide is, there is a legitimate dispute among experts in reliable sources over whether or not Israel is committing genocide, and therefore Wikipedia's rules on presenting the dispute neutrally apply: see this explanatory essay for more. Jr8825 • Talk 15:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

  • The majority of reliable sources, as shown in discussion above do call this a genocide. This includes a littany that have been published since the Time article, as well as considering the opinions of experts in the Time article. These opinions come from a variety of fields (international law, political science, holocaust studies, genocide studies, history, etc.) as well as from across a variety of reliable source outlets. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

    As another note while Israel has been accused with the crime of genocide, whether a criminal decision is provided by the courts does not actually affect whether a genocide has/is/will occur. This is a point that genocide scholars have written about ever since the adoption of the genocide convention in 1948, and is a point many scholars have brought up in relation to Palestine, and specifically Gaza in 23-24. This is reflected in how a vast swathe of wikipedia articles treat genocides, where many instances are called and labeled as genocide (in wikivoice) based on scholarly opinion without any legal decision having been made, or even legal proceedings having occurred. For examples see any of the dozens of examples at the article List of genocides or that are included in the Template:Genocide navbox -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:52, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

    The full range and balance of academic views is uncertain as this is a current affairs issue, so expert views will continue to develop and become clearer over time. With that caveat aside, presuming your short list is an accurate reflection of the current opinions of experts, you've counted 30 sources that say Israel is committing genocide and 23 that say there are caveats to this claim, or it is not genocide. This is nowhere near the clear consensus required to state there is a genocide in wikivoice and the accurate way to describe this disagreement is "allegations". Jr8825 • Talk 18:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

    I did my best to steelman the not genocide position, including opinions on the matter I personally believe do not meet the standard we should be using. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:12, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

    I appreciated your integrity in doing so. I understand your position about inconsistency across Wikipedia's treatment of the term genocide – as a general comment, I think this is simply reflecting a broader inconsistency with the application of the term in media, discourse and politics, because of the weight it carries, where attention is paid, and who is listened to. For every example of where we describe an event as genocide, there is another topic such as Tigray War where the term genocide has been legitimately used by some experts to characterise atrocities, but for various reasons it has not gained widespread traction & we have not applied the term to our article. My position is that if there is significant disagreement about whether or not there is a genocide, we should cover the discussion in detail, but be particularly cautious about applying the term in wikivoice until there is a clear consensus/it becomes the accepted term. I don't think it's a moral failing on the part of editors to describe "allegations" of genocide rather than "genocide", even if events eventually come to be accepted as genocide, as we don't know whether this will happen. Documenting the events themselves, and the surrounding discussion and about whether or not they amount to genocide, is still serving our purpose of educating readers and reflecting the current state of knowledge/range of opinions. Jr8825 • Talk 18:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I apologise for any confusion I've caused. The wording of the a-i alert seems confusing as it says "you must be logged-in, have 500 edits and an account age of 30 days, and are not allowed to make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on a page within this topic." without mentioning what you can't do without ECP, the decision is clearer, saying without ECP editors cannot make "edits relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, to pages and discussions in all namespaces with the exception of userspace ("related content"). Thus I've removed an edit by someone without ECP/ Doug Weller talk 17:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support (with caveats), as can be seen from my comments in replies to others here I do support labelling this as a genocide in wiki articles, based on the 3:1-ish ratio of reliable sources (ignoring how various sources that label it a genocide do so with the signing dozens to hundreds of relevant specialists, and a litany of other reliable sources that also call it a genocide which are currently not used in this article). Caveats: I am swayed by the argumentation that this article should remain with it's current title and scope, and that the Gaza humanitarian crisis (2023–present) should instead be renamed, so if it be under consideration that this discussion should be closed and moved to that article's talk page, I support that action over renaming this article. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:46, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

  Just to clarify, what do you propose Gaza humanitarian crisis should be renamed to? Jr8825 • Talk 19:11, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

  The argument as laid out by others is to rename the Gaza humanitarian crisis article to Gaza genocide, as that details more the conditions and actions that are brining about said genocide, where as this one only touches on them and focuses more on the academic and legal discourse. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 20:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

A note for the closer just in case, I really don't think discussion here should determine the title of that other article. I think we should start a new RM pinging everyone here instead on that article's talk page. The result of this RM should focus strictly on this article. Super Ψ Dro 22:56, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

It's a bit irritating how so many on both sides continue to misunderstand and misrepresent the purpose of this article. If we did move this article specifically, we would either have to move it back to its original name or rewrite the entire text to better align with the title. Either way is unnecessary hassle, so I expect an admin to step in and move the RM. – Howard🌽33 08:05, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support - The overwhelming evidence and numbers involved are not controversial, so they speak for themselves. There is only some "diplomatic" reluctance to call a spade a spade, a reluctance to do that last step of presenting the obvious interpretation of said facts and numbers, a reluctance which seems to be present, not because of what, but because of who ("us and them"). But there should be no room for any particular "exceptionalism". In striving for neutrality, there should be no double standards. Niokog (talk) 10:34, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
• STRONGLY OPPOSE -- both Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza and Attempted genocide by Israel in their 2023 attack on Gaza are both absurd and offensive. Allegations are inherently unreliable and anathema to true journalism. Does anyone refer to the Six Day war as "genocide" even though the Arab/Muslim intent was to destroy the State of Israel? Al Jazeera reliant anti-Israel editor @Davidlofgren1996 needs to be sanctioned for these obnoxious, biased, irresponsible redirects and attempted redirects. Nirva20 (talk) 20:59, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

  Let’s fix the tone on this FortunateSons (talk) 21:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

  Do not cast WP:ASPERSIONS. Salmoonlight (talk) 21:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

• Apologies. Is the following better?

STRONGLY OPPOSE -- Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza, Attempted genocide by Israel in their 2023 attack on Gaza and, especially, Genocide in Gaza, should be deleted. If Israel wanted to "kill everyone in Gaza" as at least one editor stated or quoted on this colloquy, they could do so far more efficiently. They are seeking out the Iranian funded tunnels built under civilian areas and hospitals. Does anyone refer to the Six Day War as "genocide" even though the Arab/Muslim intent was to destroy the State of Israel or the al-Assad attack on Homs as genocide or even the 1492 edict of Alhambra expelling non-Christians from Spain and marking the onset of the Inquisition and colonization of the Americas as genocide? Nirva20 (talk) 21:37, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Genocide of Indigenous peoples ??? Salmoonlight (talk) 21:46, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I think they are referring to the expulsion in Spain, not the aftermath. FortunateSons (talk) 21:49, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't think you know how genocide works judging by that second sentence. Salmoonlight (talk) 21:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't Gazans' plight fit into Genocide of Indigenous peoples, then? Nirva20 (talk) 21:54, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, that gets us into the question of Gazans are indigenous, an entirely to complex question for Wikipedia to decide as a precursor for inclusion. FortunateSons (talk) 21:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I suggest reading "El-Affendi, Abdelwahab (18 January 2024). "The Futility of Genocide Studies After Gaza". Journal of Genocide Research: 1–7. doi:10.1080/14623528.2024.2305525.". A genocide need not be successful for it to be a genocide, under any definition of genocide accepted in law or scholarship. As to the other instances you list, you show you have no reading whatsoever on genocide scholarship, as many of them are debated and have been compared to and considered in regards to conceptions of genocide and genocidal actions. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:38, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

"If Israel wanted to "kill everyone in Gaza" as at least one editor stated or quoted on this colloquy, they could do so far more efficiently."

Are you implying that Israel isn't committing genocide in Gaza because they aren't killing Palestinians fast enough? HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 23:14, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

No. I am stating that Israel's goal is not to "kill everyone in Gaza" (which would be the most obvious definition of genocide) as some have claimed and that what has been happening since 8 October 2023 is not "genocide", a term some (including on Wikipedia) throw about far too carelessly. Mimicking the UN, which seats third world despots and tyrants on its human rights committees, doesn't convince me either. Nirva20 (talk) 01:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Nirva20 First read the definition of genocide before posting this sort of nonsense. It's not far. It's on Wikipedia even. — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:11, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I am a supporter of the State of Israel and I will never accept that its conduct has ever been or is genocidal. Period. There have been many actual genocides throughout history. Why don't you check and see if each has its own proper Wikipedia article? Nirva20 (talk) 02:18, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

You are free to support whomever you wish, even Alpha Centauri. Publishing on Wikipedia requires adopting a neutral point of view. You may ask yourself whether you are able to respect that policy. — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:21, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I would be genuinely fascinated to hear what you believe is currently happening in Gaza, especially considering Israel has admitted to murdering numerous hostages. When you have one of the most thorough intelligence agencies in the world, but still end up bombing your own people being held captive, I think it’s clear that you intend to indiscriminately murder everyone in Gaza. When you kill people who were waving a white flag, regardless of who you believe them to be, I think it’s clear that you intend to indiscriminately murder everyone in Gaza. When you are indiscriminately bombing civilians in Gaza, I think it’s clear that you intend to indiscriminately murder everyone in Gaza.

Do you need any more evidence? 1, 2, 3 We can even go back to before Oct 2023 (1, 2, 3) if you’d like, because Israel has made its intention to wipe out Palestinians from Gaza for a very, very long time now. Such is their dehumanisation of the Palestinians, Israeli companies “joke” about building holiday homes in the ruins of Gaza. As Israel been given carte blanche to continue with their genocide by the west, we will see thousands more die. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 06:16, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

While all of these are terrible cases, none of the sources you've just linked are useful to showing how is the academic and legal consensus currently. In fact most of them do not mention the word "genocide". You took these cases and defined what is happening in Gaza as a genocide based on them. That's not how it works. Super Ψ Dro 23:17, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

kill everyone in Gaza The UN definition does not require that literally everyone is killed, and neither does the more lax definition used in some academic circles. That would be an impossibly high bar to clear. KetchupSalt (talk) 21:16, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - like most, I think the Israeli government actions in the last four months are abhorrent and massively disproportionate. But this isn't about what I think and we need to keep WP:WIKIVOICE and WP:NPOV in mind - I don't see a strong enough consensus in RS for this move. Too divisive in my mind. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:21, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose for linguistic reasons I agree with a move that openly declares what is happening in Gaza a genocide, but I don't believe the "attempted" part of the title is accurate. A state commits genocide or it doesn't. Very few genocides in human history have ever actually successfully destroyed an entire people, and nobody only calls events such as The Holocaust as an "attempted" genocide despite the existence of Holocaust survivors. I would prefer something like Genocide of Palestinians (2023-present) instead. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 23:09, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

  This seems reasonable to me. David A (talk) 16:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

•  Comment: I'd much prefer Gaza genocide. Israel's declared intent was to destroy the Palestinian ethnic group in Gaza by making the area uninhabitable, killing off a proportion of the population, and terrorising the remainder into escaping to Egypt (vide Israeli requests to Egypt to open the border). It's a textbook case of genocide. — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:18, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Isn't that what Turkey and Pakistan did and have been doing since the 20th century to non-Muslims? Nirva20 (talk) 02:20, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Nirva20 Another bullshit from you. Pakistan state has several privileges for non-Muslims, including a double quota in the Parliament, permission to drink alcohol, and so on. There's no systemic persecution of non-Muslims. Turkey is a largely secular state – arguably more secular than Israel. Why don't you learn about the world before editing an encyclopaedia? — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:25, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Turkey is flexing to recreate the Ottoman caliphate and Pakistan still has the death penalty for blasphemy. Tell Aasiya Noreen how privileged non-Muslims are there. Nirva20 (talk) 02:33, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Why don't you stop digging deeper? Pakistan is no angel in its treatment of minorities, but to-date not a single person has ever been executed for blasphemy in Pakistan, so the "genocide" label doesn't stick. By the way, blasphemy is also a criminal offence in a number of countries worldwide, including in Denmark, Ireland, and the Netherlands[4] – will you call them out for genocide? You are mixing up religious discrimination with genocide, likely because you have no understanding of legal concepts, no idea about what constitutes genocide, and no idea about other countries whose names you just fly people in the face hoping to, what, impress them? For the sake of my time, EOT. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:24, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Let’s lower the heat on that response, please? FortunateSons (talk) 10:28, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  I would also support the title Gaza genocide. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 03:01, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes. I also find that title preferable. David A (talk) 16:26, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  I've struck this comment as Kashmiri has previously given a bolded response (see the "Strongest support possible" post above). Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:52, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks. Didn't notice a double vote as my signature failed there. I've converted my !vote into a comment. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose for two reasons. First, word "attempted" is wrong and should not be used. If someone indeed "attempted" a genocide, this is already a genocide, plain and simple. Secondly, a lot of civilians will be killed in any significant military conflict and especially during urban warfare (as in this case). One question here if the reasonable and possible precautions were taken to minimize the civilian casualties. If not, this could be a war crime, but not necessarily a genocide. But even that is very much debatable because some precautions were taken, but critics say they were not sufficient. There is a much higher bar for calling something a genocide in WP voice, and it was not passed in this case, as best review sources say, i.e "Scholars are torn on whether the current conflict can be yet classified a genocide officially." [5]. My very best wishes (talk) 15:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  However, deliberately denying food and water to a population or deliberately driving them away from a given geographic area are not war crimes; they are indicators of a genocidal intent. Compare with Holodomor where nobody was shot – people were just deliberately starved to death. — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:29, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  • deliberately driving them away from a given geographic area is generally not considered genocide or proof of intent, even though it can be under some (exceptional) circumstances .
  • And using actions such as not providing food and water as anything but a weak indicator needs to be done with a high degree of care in any alleged genocide (particularly those that are also wars), as they can be fully covered as war crimes (or other unethical/illegal conduct) without amounting to any intent to exterminate in whole or in part (hypothetical example: we will give you food once you overthrow your government -> definitely unethical and illegal, but clearly not genocide, as you want them to be desperate and not dead)

  FortunateSons (talk) 19:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree this is a reasonable analogy. Deliberately denying food and water to a population and preventing them from leaving the affected area using military forces (that is what NKVD did during the Holodomor) may be a genocide. And indeed, the Israeli forces do not allow them to escape to Israel. But another place to leave is Egypt. Is not it Egypt who controls that border? If so, then Israel and Egypt could be responsible if these events will result in mass death of civilians from hunger (I assume that did not happen yet, but the events are definitely moving in this direction). But this is just my understanding. The RS say what they say (cited above). My very best wishes (talk) 19:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Egypt possibly, however from whatever I've read, Egypt's aim is actually to prevent the 2 million Palestinians being relocated to its territory. This, as I'm reading, apart from being a humanitarian catastrophe and rendering moot any talks of a two-state solution, would expose Egypt to a near-certain risk that its soil will be used for cross-border armed attacks against Israel, likely for generations. (It's assumed that Israel will never allow those people back). Egypt seems betting that the international pressure will stop Israel from invading Rafah; yet simultaneously it started constructing a gigantic enclosure where, it is said, it will try to settle Palestinians in case of an Israeli onslaught on the city.[6] Whether this means they are complicit in genocide, it's difficult to ascertain. As we are told, it's intent that matters, and it may be hard to prove that Egypt's intent was to destroy the Palestinian ethnic group in Gaza, — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:36, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. But I just do not see how they can survive in no man's land in Gaza while IDF battle with Hamas for another year. My very best wishes (talk) 03:47, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

P.S. As someone only casually familiar with this conflict, I would assume that all civilians must be allowed to voluntarily evacuate somewhere (probably to Egypt) during the hostilities, just as it would be during any other war (e.g. a lot of Ukrainian civilians were evacuated or just left the country after the invasion by Russian forces, etc.) But again, it only matters what the RS say on the subject.My very best wishes (talk) 20:15, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Let's be real. Little precautions were taken by Israel. Also I heavily disagree with diverting some attention to Egypt. A third country should not be coerced into taking any responsabilities because one country is committing crimes in another. I doubt many sources hold a stance like this. Super Ψ Dro 23:37, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

On one hand yes, on the other you'd try to avoid such situations as during the war in Abkhazia where 250,000+ people fled the fighting, only to never be allowed back; nor were they allowed to integrate into the host society as Georgia needed them remain refugees in order to maintain international pressure on Abkhazia.

Similar situation was with regard to Syrian refugees in Turkey and, prominently, in Lebanon.

Removing entire populations to other countries is not always the best solution long term. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

The latest event of this nature was Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians. I agree such things amount to ethnic cleansing. My very best wishes (talk) 03:38, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

• The strongest support possible. What the nation of Israel is currently doing is far beyond absolutely heinous, and the sum total evidence I have seen both via Wikipedia and elsewhere has been overwhelmingly convincing. The International Court of Justice also ordered Israel to take all measures to prevent any acts that could be considered genocidal according to the 1948 Genocide Convention, and said that at least some of the South African allegations appear to fall under the provisions of the Genocide Convention. David A (talk) 15:51, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  That is factually inaccurate: the standard that was currently met in the ICJ was plausible, which is significantly lower than beyond all reasonable doubt.

  Additionally, Wikipedia pages don’t „prove“, they simply explain the points of view of RS. FortunateSons (talk) 16:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  I have seen lots of video evidence as well, so the sum total of all the evidence I have read or watched has still proven overwhelmingly convincing for me. David A (talk) 16:30, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  I get that; would you mind striking the inaccurate claim(s) from your original comment? :) FortunateSons (talk) 16:36, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  I have now modified my text above according to what Wikipedia currently says regarding the topic. David A (talk) 16:44, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you! FortunateSons (talk) 16:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

  No problem. David A (talk) 17:01, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: there is no "attempted" with genocide. It either is or it isn't a genocide. It may be too early to imply in WikiVoice that it is, even if the evidence is mounting. If "attempted" is removed, and if there's sufficient RS for it, then I would support renaming. KetchupSalt (talk) 21:23, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: The tone and substance of this discussion has veered into original research and accusatory language. I'm not going to single anyone out here, so I've left a few messages on the talk pages of participants, just as a friendly reminder. To reiterate, accusations of dishonesty are not appropriate here, and editors should not be applying their own analysis on the definition of genocide when considering their !vote. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:59, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I ask Thebiguglyalien not to try to play police and contribute to the discussion and the consensus-building process. They have decided to send some kind of warning to 14 editors that have participated in this discussion which I am pretty sure is the vast majority if not outright the totality of them. This includes cases of users who put one single perfectly neutral comment [7]. I am sure good faith was behind their comments but frankly I don't find them well-thought nor helpful. Super Ψ Dro 23:03, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

@Thebiguglyalien You might like to know that original research is welcome and indeed encouraged on Talk pages. More importantly, editors must feel free to express their views in any way they like within the constraints of the project's policies. It would be great if you let people share their comments about article subjects, even if they are not a copy-and-paste of press articles. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:58, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

They're allowed to, and I didn't use any sort of warning template to imply otherwise. But they should be notified that these arguments on their own will not be considered in the close. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:05, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as we should wait for what the ICJ rules (we already note in the article that they say it is plausible) or for numerous reliable sources to report it as such - I have yet to see a list and while I am knowledgable about the Western media's pro-Israel bias I haven't seen enough reliable non-Western/English sources refer to it as such. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 23:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I second a call to wait. It all will be surely clearer in the future. We don't necessarily have to wait for the ICJ ruling but I am pretty sure it will be regarded as the most authoritative source for this for a long time once it comes out. Super Ψ Dro 23:17, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

• Strongest support possible (with caveats) I think there's an essence of naivety in the insistence on Wikipedia's commitment to impartiality in this context. What must be remembered is that "true" impartiality is not possible, any bold statement of fact will inevitably display some form of bias. However, I believe that, given the body of evidence available, refraining from referring to the situation as a genocide is downright irresponsible. The IDF and Israeli government has repeatedly displayed genocidal intent and a perception of Palestinians as less than human. The grouping of nearly two million people into a small area and then shelling said small area is a genocidal effort in no uncertain terms. Anyone waiting for some more authoritative source on whether or not these actions qualify as genocide is fooling themselves. In the effort to come off unbiased, other editors have fallen victim to biased language which has repeatedly sought to mute and downplay the gravity of the crisis in Gaza. (E.g., referring to casualties as though they were natural disasters as opposed to murders, see coverage of the flour massacre.) Behind droves of irresponsible and dehumanizing reporting of the crisis is factual reporting of the events which boldly spell out genocide to anyone viewing the situation honestly.
  With that said, the proposed title is clunky and unprofessional. Might I suggest Gaza genocide, Palestinian genocide in Gaza, Ongoing Palestinian genocide or something similar which offers a pithy summary of the situation. As a general rule, titles should not include pronouns. ('their')
  I'd also propose merging this with Gaza humanitarian crisis (2023–present) as it would only make sense to keep them separate were one page to be covering tangential allegations; however if we're going to refer to this boldly as a genocide, it would make more sense to include both a summary of events, and commentary and evidence of the allegation of genocide within the same article. User:NexusHUB User talk:NexusHUB 03:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Read this before voting

This requested move has no reason being implemented in *this* article. This article is not primarily concerned with covering the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza, which has been considered genocide by majority (but not unanimously) of RS. This article is for documenting the initial background, allegations, evidence, trials, academic, legal, and cultural discourse; and the positions of various organisations and people regarding the genocide designation. It would make no sense in either case to move this article to the proposed name. I am asking everyone to oppose the current proposal, but I am also asking for a move proposal to be re-opened in Humanitarian crisis in Gaza. That article has a better case for being renamed. If the proposal here does pass, it will inevitably be reverted after another long discussion. Let us all please avoid the hassle of that discussion and reject it here and now. – Howard🌽33 15:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Gaza genocide redirects to this page, and I think that it would likely be confusing with two different Wikipedia pages with almost the same titles covering similar subject matter, but I am not certain regarding the issue. David A (talk) 16:34, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd personally prefer if Gaza genocide redirected to the article on the humanitarian crisis, but changing the redirect is impossible right now without starting a new discussion. – Howard🌽33 17:09, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

This current article should either be redirected to something like "Gaza genocide question" (if no consensus is reached on if it's a genocide) or "Recognition of the Gaza genocide" (if there is consensus). – Howard🌽33 17:14, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I beg to disagree – to me, a humanitarian crisis is something fundamentally different from a genocide. The two phenomena may sometimes (!) coexist, but they belong to two different realms. Genocide is a legal term, and articles on genocides will focus on the perpetrator's actions insofar as they run afoul of the Genocide Convention. On the other hand, articles describing humanitarian crises will focus on the deprivation and violations of various rights under various international treaties, and frequently just on the suffering. They are two entirely different perspectives. Additionally, the other article sees almost no participation on Talk...

I encourage editors who are familiar with the nuances of genocide to !vote here. — kashmīrī ^TALK 00:18, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Disputed articles

I have seen confusion about certain New York Times articles being removed from this article due to them being disputed. Because the NYT is generally considered to be reliable, this may be confusing to editors. Therefore, it would be helpful to detail which articles are disputed along with the conversations establishing consensus on that fact.

So, I'll post the one I'm familiar with. Anyone else may add to this list. Additionally we may want to move this to the top of the Talk page so it doesn't get archived:

• The New York Times articles written by Anat Schwartz, particularly "Screams Without Words" (28 Dec 2023). Reason: Fabricated and/or debunked evidence investigated by The Intercept. Discussion: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#The New York Times

Mokadoshi (talk) 02:01, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus in that discussion that the NYT (or even the article in question) is unreliable or "debunked". If it turns out to be sloppy journalism I expect we'll see a correction/retraction. Until such a consensus emerges, the NYT should be presumed reliable per its long-standing reputation for good reporting and editorial review, see WP:NYT. Irrespective of this, I don't see why that specific article (which focuses on allegations of rape, and doesn't mention genocide) would be relevant to this article (on alleged genocide). Jr8825 • Talk 04:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)