Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography: Difference between revisions
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:There's been sporadic, recurrent dispute about this. The upshot is that editors largely concentrated in the wikiprojects [[WP:PEERAGE]] and [[WP:ROYALTY]] have decided on their own, in what amounts to a [[WP:FAITACCOMPLI]] action, to repurpose various fields of {{tlx|infobox person}} and derivatives of it, to shoehorn aristocratic titles into the {{para|name}} (or sometimes other inappropriate) parameters, and have just gone and done this to tens of thousands of articles, despite this not being consistent with the templates' own documentation of the meaning of these parameters, or with [[MOS:BIO]] regarding such titles (covered in various subsections of [[MOS:PEOPLETITLES]]. In short, we have a disputed mess in which the infobox of, say, [[Margaret Thatcher]] claims that her {{em|name}} is "The Baroness Thatcher", which is obviously badly incorrect. That title belongs in one of the other parameters, {{para|honorific_suffix}}. To make matters worse, the {{para|honorific_prefix}} parameter (intended for things like "Duke" and "Dame") has been widely misused to insert a form of {{em|address}} that would be used only when writing a letter to such a person or perhaps when introducing them at a formal engagement, but which is not how they are normally referred to in writing by anyone ever. (The most common of these misuses is "The Rt. Hon." or "The Right Honourable".) And even the baroness part should not have "The" on it (that's used when describing the title in a stand-alone manner, not when used directly with the person's name). For the Thatcher case, the obviously solution is: {{para|name|Margaret Hilda Thatcher}}{{para|honorific_suffix|Baroness Thatcher<br />{{tlp|Post-nominals|country{{=}}GBR|size{{=}}100%|LG|OM|DStJ|PC|FRS|HonFRSC}} }}, and this is what agrees with the lead of the article. Another potential solution is one or more additional parameters, e.g. for gentry/peerage titles, and possibly for formal address, though the latter is arguably not encyclopedic information (much less infobox-level core information), and is better covered at the article on the general class of title (i.e., it is "how to address peers of particular ranks" and "how to address knights/dames" and "how to address Scottish lairs and clan chiefs", and "how to address judges", and "how to address members of parliament", and etc., etc., etc. information, and not particular to someone's bio. A simpler solution is to just remove the address string, and put the aristrocratic titles in the extant {{para|honorific_suffix}} parameter; there's something to be said for such simplicity versus making a complex template even more complex without there being a clear reader-facing benefit.<!-- --><p>Anyway, there have been several abortive discussions about this at various places, but nothing has resulted in action, and this might have to be resolved with an RfC, perhaps at [[WP:VPPOL]] since it has implications for a large number of articles. I've had other projects going on which absorb most of my time, and this is why I've not bothered RfCing this already. It definitely does need to get resolved one way or another.<!-- --></p><p>PS, on the matter of link-piping with regard to such a person in other articles: It would depend on the context. If it's clear in the sentence that "the Earl of Rosebery" is in reference to a specific person known by that title at the time, then the piped link is not necessarily problematic, but only if the actual name of this person has been given previously in the same article. Far too often I run across piped links of this sort in a {{lang|la|non sequitur}} manner, seemingly put there by British editors who are personally familiar with who the subject of the link is, without considering that even many other British readers would not be and that virtually no one outside the UK will be. So, at least at first occurrence, using <code><nowiki>[[Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery]],</nowiki></code> will be more appropriate. It might simply be <code><nowiki>[[Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery|Earl of Rosebery]],</nowiki></code> in a later occurrence, since depending on the context we might take advantage of the new standard (since about a year ago) of linking once per major section yet also consider who the person is/was already adequately explained in a previous section. There's a bit of a tension between those two ideas. In various cases, such a title should just be left off, when it's not contextually pertinent and/or doesn't match typical RS usage; e.g. [[Christopher Guest]] is not normally referred to as [5th] Baron Haden-Guest except in reference to his brief stint as a parliamentarian, or in other peerage-pertinent contexts, but not as a actor-director-writer (where even the "Haden-" is almost universally dropped, at his own preference). On the other hand, any time the title is being referred to as the title itself, or in the plural, it should link to the article/section on the title not the present title-holder. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 05:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)</p> |
:There's been sporadic, recurrent dispute about this. The upshot is that editors largely concentrated in the wikiprojects [[WP:PEERAGE]] and [[WP:ROYALTY]] have decided on their own, in what amounts to a [[WP:FAITACCOMPLI]] action, to repurpose various fields of {{tlx|infobox person}} and derivatives of it, to shoehorn aristocratic titles into the {{para|name}} (or sometimes other inappropriate) parameters, and have just gone and done this to tens of thousands of articles, despite this not being consistent with the templates' own documentation of the meaning of these parameters, or with [[MOS:BIO]] regarding such titles (covered in various subsections of [[MOS:PEOPLETITLES]]. In short, we have a disputed mess in which the infobox of, say, [[Margaret Thatcher]] claims that her {{em|name}} is "The Baroness Thatcher", which is obviously badly incorrect. That title belongs in one of the other parameters, {{para|honorific_suffix}}. To make matters worse, the {{para|honorific_prefix}} parameter (intended for things like "Duke" and "Dame") has been widely misused to insert a form of {{em|address}} that would be used only when writing a letter to such a person or perhaps when introducing them at a formal engagement, but which is not how they are normally referred to in writing by anyone ever. (The most common of these misuses is "The Rt. Hon." or "The Right Honourable".) And even the baroness part should not have "The" on it (that's used when describing the title in a stand-alone manner, not when used directly with the person's name). For the Thatcher case, the obviously solution is: {{para|name|Margaret Hilda Thatcher}}{{para|honorific_suffix|Baroness Thatcher<br />{{tlp|Post-nominals|country{{=}}GBR|size{{=}}100%|LG|OM|DStJ|PC|FRS|HonFRSC}} }}, and this is what agrees with the lead of the article. Another potential solution is one or more additional parameters, e.g. for gentry/peerage titles, and possibly for formal address, though the latter is arguably not encyclopedic information (much less infobox-level core information), and is better covered at the article on the general class of title (i.e., it is "how to address peers of particular ranks" and "how to address knights/dames" and "how to address Scottish lairs and clan chiefs", and "how to address judges", and "how to address members of parliament", and etc., etc., etc. information, and not particular to someone's bio. A simpler solution is to just remove the address string, and put the aristrocratic titles in the extant {{para|honorific_suffix}} parameter; there's something to be said for such simplicity versus making a complex template even more complex without there being a clear reader-facing benefit.<!-- --><p>Anyway, there have been several abortive discussions about this at various places, but nothing has resulted in action, and this might have to be resolved with an RfC, perhaps at [[WP:VPPOL]] since it has implications for a large number of articles. I've had other projects going on which absorb most of my time, and this is why I've not bothered RfCing this already. It definitely does need to get resolved one way or another.<!-- --></p><p>PS, on the matter of link-piping with regard to such a person in other articles: It would depend on the context. If it's clear in the sentence that "the Earl of Rosebery" is in reference to a specific person known by that title at the time, then the piped link is not necessarily problematic, but only if the actual name of this person has been given previously in the same article. Far too often I run across piped links of this sort in a {{lang|la|non sequitur}} manner, seemingly put there by British editors who are personally familiar with who the subject of the link is, without considering that even many other British readers would not be and that virtually no one outside the UK will be. So, at least at first occurrence, using <code><nowiki>[[Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery]],</nowiki></code> will be more appropriate. It might simply be <code><nowiki>[[Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery|Earl of Rosebery]],</nowiki></code> in a later occurrence, since depending on the context we might take advantage of the new standard (since about a year ago) of linking once per major section yet also consider who the person is/was already adequately explained in a previous section. There's a bit of a tension between those two ideas. In various cases, such a title should just be left off, when it's not contextually pertinent and/or doesn't match typical RS usage; e.g. [[Christopher Guest]] is not normally referred to as [5th] Baron Haden-Guest except in reference to his brief stint as a parliamentarian, or in other peerage-pertinent contexts, but not as a actor-director-writer (where even the "Haden-" is almost universally dropped, at his own preference). On the other hand, any time the title is being referred to as the title itself, or in the plural, it should link to the article/section on the title not the present title-holder. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 05:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)</p> |
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::It’s even worse than [[User:SMcCandlish]]’s explanation of this issue. See for example the infobox for [[Selwyn Lloyd]], where the reader is informed that Lloyd’s successor as foreign secretary was one “The Earl of Home”; his time as leader of the house was under the PM Alec Douglas-Home. The casual reader is left unaware that these are one and the same person, whose status had changed between positions. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">[[User:Cambial Yellowing|<i style="color:#999900">Cambial </i>]]— [[User talk:Cambial Yellowing|<b style="color:#218000">foliar❧</b>]]</span> 13:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC) |
::It’s even worse than [[User:SMcCandlish]]’s explanation of this issue. See for example the infobox for [[Selwyn Lloyd]], where the reader is informed that Lloyd’s successor as foreign secretary was one “The Earl of Home”; his time as leader of the house was under the PM Alec Douglas-Home. The casual reader is left unaware that these are one and the same person, whose status had changed between positions. <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#4682B4 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#4682B4 -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;color:#000000">[[User:Cambial Yellowing|<i style="color:#999900">Cambial </i>]]— [[User talk:Cambial Yellowing|<b style="color:#218000">foliar❧</b>]]</span> 13:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:::I don't see this as a problem. Home was known by different names at different points in his life. The infobox should reflect that. [[User:Atchom|Atchom]] ([[User talk:Atchom|talk]]) 00:12, 17 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::You're right, this needs to be clarified but doing so would have a big impact. I don't have the knowledge or time to open an RfC myself. Is there anyone who is willing to do so? [[User:Ecrm87|Ecrm87]] ([[User talk:Ecrm87|talk]]) 17:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
::You're right, this needs to be clarified but doing so would have a big impact. I don't have the knowledge or time to open an RfC myself. Is there anyone who is willing to do so? [[User:Ecrm87|Ecrm87]] ([[User talk:Ecrm87|talk]]) 17:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:I don't know the answer. But concerning Selwyn Lloyd & all other Speakers of the GB/UK House of Commons? I'm curious as to why the prime minister is included in their infoboxes. The speaker doesn't serve under the prime minister. Same thing with the leader of the Opposition, who also doesn't serve under the prime minister. But, I guess that's another topic. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC) |
:I don't know the answer. But concerning Selwyn Lloyd & all other Speakers of the GB/UK House of Commons? I'm curious as to why the prime minister is included in their infoboxes. The speaker doesn't serve under the prime minister. Same thing with the leader of the Opposition, who also doesn't serve under the prime minister. But, I guess that's another topic. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 14:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:12, 17 May 2024
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Manual of Style/Biography page. |
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Unimportant age details at time of death
When is it useful or encyclopedic to say something like "he died seven and a half weeks before his 93rd birthday" instead of "he died at age 92"? I might be convinced to allow something like "she died one day before her 100th birthday", but where do we draw the line? Chris the speller yack 18:22, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Chris the speller, I see no point in including that sort of content. The age at death should be sufficient. Eddie Blick (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- At a minimum, I would expect a reliable source to mention it, establishing some significance.—Bagumba (talk) 19:32, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks to you both for the response. There are hundreds of these, including some like this: "exactly two weeks before his 95th birthday". What precision! But what good does it do for any reader? I will nibble away at this pile of excessive drivel. Chris the speller yack 20:41, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Chris the speller, a related point is that in many cases where such expressions appear the date of birth is unsourced. Therefore any expression of a span before or after a birthday would be unsourced, also (unless the span is stated in the obituary or has some other reliable source). Eddie Blick (talk) 00:43, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks to you both for the response. There are hundreds of these, including some like this: "exactly two weeks before his 95th birthday". What precision! But what good does it do for any reader? I will nibble away at this pile of excessive drivel. Chris the speller yack 20:41, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- While I agree that a line should be drawn, if the detail is reliably sourced, I don't see how it benefits the reader to provide a less precise range rather than a more precise one. The fact that such references commonly occur in reporting suggests that it is a detail likely to be of interest to readers, and I would generally be opposed to any sweeping campaign of removing these details, absent a lack of sourcing. BD2412 T 23:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
- If the specific date of death is provided, can't the reader determine for themself how much of a "partial year" of age they had at the time of their death? I don't really see any need to include something extraneous like that, especially when it's already there for anyone who actually is interested. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- I find such details to be excessive, with the damage being distraction and undue weight. Birthday anniversaries just aren't (usually) that important. It is appropriate in some nonencyclopedic writing that is trying to add some color to the story, but Wikipedia should stick to plain facts. I think some editors would even reject this as analysis of the sources (assuming the sources just give the birth and death dates). Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 03:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Since 99.7% of our dear departed did not die on their birthday, for uniformity we should either specify the proximity to their birthday or omit it. If everybody gets the birthday mention, who's going to pitch in and add it to the hundreds of thousands of articles that don't yet have it? Easier to remove it from the relatively few articles where the subject's niece or nephew added this unencyclopedic trivia. Chris the speller yack 04:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- I am sure that newspapers have some rule for this. It is very common for news reports to indicate this proximity where it is close (within a few weeks). Taken to the opposite extreme, why do we say of someone, "he died at age 92" rather than "he died in his 90s"? BD2412 T 04:43, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- Since 99.7% of our dear departed did not die on their birthday, for uniformity we should either specify the proximity to their birthday or omit it. If everybody gets the birthday mention, who's going to pitch in and add it to the hundreds of thousands of articles that don't yet have it? Easier to remove it from the relatively few articles where the subject's niece or nephew added this unencyclopedic trivia. Chris the speller yack 04:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- In my first post at the top of this discussion, I asked "where do we draw the line?" To me, "until his death three months before his 56th birthday" is only slightly less preposterous than "until his death ten months before his 56th birthday". Chris the speller yack 05:15, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
where do we draw the line"
: YMMV. Depending on where and when, some are satisfied if it's verifiable (or even via WP:CALC), others may get into whether it's WP:DUE. Ultimately, there's the WP:ONUS policy:
—Bagumba (talk) 05:34, 8 March 2024 (UTC)While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included. Consensus may determine that certain information does not improve an article.
- Saying that someone died weeks before their birthday is more informative to the reader than merely stating their age. Within two weeks is probably a reasonable cutoff, unless we are talking about some milestone (100th birthday, for example), perhaps for which celebratory plans were already in the works (see, e.g., Betty White#Betty White: A Celebration (2022)). BD2412 T 20:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think if a reliable source deems it important enough to mention, so should we. GiantSnowman 21:00, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Saying that someone died weeks before their birthday is more informative to the reader than merely stating their age. Within two weeks is probably a reasonable cutoff, unless we are talking about some milestone (100th birthday, for example), perhaps for which celebratory plans were already in the works (see, e.g., Betty White#Betty White: A Celebration (2022)). BD2412 T 20:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- In my first post at the top of this discussion, I asked "where do we draw the line?" To me, "until his death three months before his 56th birthday" is only slightly less preposterous than "until his death ten months before his 56th birthday". Chris the speller yack 05:15, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with BD, we certainly do not need any campaign to remove all such mentions. We are writing for the facts, yes, but that does not mean we should strive to make this place completely devoid of colour (anyone else still running Vector 2022?) We are not robots, but if anyone wants a rule, then yes, it seems silly to mention a birthday if it was more than a month out, and removing that seems fine to me. Beyond that, personally I wouldn’t add such detail without it being closer than a week on either side, but to remove it is more of a waste of time than many, many other things you could be doing instead. — HTGS (talk) 22:38, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
Consensus on adding disabilities (blind/deaf) in biographical article first sentence?
Disabilities are almost never mentioned in first sentences, just nationality and occupation. See Category:Deaf actors for examples. However this article (Kaylee Hottle) seems to be breaking established status quo. 🅶🅰🅼🅾🆆🅴🅱🅱🅴🅳 (talk) 12:47, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- The first sentence should highlight attributes that the subject is most notable for. Which attributes should be mentioned is very subject specific. Sometimes an attribute is crucial to a person’s notability (ie the person is notable because of that attribute), while the same attribute may be trivial to the notability of another person. Blueboar (talk) 13:25, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- Does WP:SELFID come into play at all? How does the subject of the article consider themselves? An actress who is deaf, or a deaf actress? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 13:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- Not for the opening sentence. That should be based on independent sources. Blueboar (talk) 13:51, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- Does WP:SELFID come into play at all? How does the subject of the article consider themselves? An actress who is deaf, or a deaf actress? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 13:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- When it is central to the subject's notability, it should be mentioned. When not, not. An example where it is central and mentioned is Chieko Asakawa. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
- I gotta be honest, in both of the articles mentioned above I would make sure the disability is in the lead, and maybe the second sentence, but I wouldn’t put it in the first sentence as they are. Most people should be regarded for their work first, then their disability. The fact that they are deaf or blind is not the primary reason these people are notable, but it has clearly had a strong impact. — HTGS (talk) 06:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
"Serving/serves/served as"
I have been active in creating and editing business biographies here for many years. For a few weeks now I have been replacing phrasings such as "John Doe serves as the CEO of XYZ Inc", with "John Doe is the CEO of XYZ Inc". The latter is more concise, and I think clearer and more neutral. The edit summary I have typically given is "copyedit, more neutral language". None of my edits have been reverted. On my talk page, User_talk:Edwardx#"serving_as"_non-neutral?, Anastrophe has asked "can you point me to the policy or discussion where it was determined that "serving as" is non-neutral language?".
MOS:OPENPARABIO reads "The first sentence should usually state ... One, or possibly more, noteworthy positions, activities, or roles that the person is mainly known for, avoiding subjective or contentious terms." I think that "serves as" is subjective and contentious. Private sector companies, PR and the business press encourage us to (at least subconciously) see some sort of equivalence between private sector business roles and what might traditionally have been called "public service".
For business biographies this seems clear-cut. But what about politicians, armed forces personnel, roles in not-for-profit organisations, and unpaid roles? I think that we should consider removing "serving/serves/served as" from all articles, and would much appreciate hearing the views of other editors. Edwardx (talk) 19:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for starting this, Edwardx. I'll repeat my question/arguments from Edwardx's talk page here, for further clarity. First largely responds to the question of use for military, politicians, etc.
"[...] I'm still unclear in what way describing someone as serving a particular position or role is non-neutral - it doesn't sympathize with nor disparage the subject in any way that I can discern. Politicians and military personnel work within the broader scope of what is commonly and accurately characterized as "public service". With the exception of extremely minor public service, such as serving on a small town's city council, where the members only fill that role part-time and earn a living elsewhere, those in public service aren't expected to work for free. Being paid doesn't change what their role is."
- And reply to the contention that the biz press encourages its use so that we subconsciously see an equivalence with public service:
"But is that the case? I hate to throw out the original research argument, but that's what this appears to be. Absent a concrete policy stating that the terminology is overtly violating WP:NEUTRAL, rather than an individual editor's notion about what the term might mean, I think you should bring the matter up in the appropriate place for broader discussion, rather than imposing this as a blanket change. I'm unable to find any reliable sources that support your opinion on this. I've seen 'serving as' used to describe a "low level" customer service representative position - that's why it's described as "customer service".
- Look forward to other perspectives as well. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 20:09, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- I would prefer to see this sort of phrasing only for unpaid roles that one might actually consider as service rather than employment. Or maybe for someone serving in the armed forces; that's also commonly called service. But not for just a job, CEO or otherwise. "Served as" has the connotation that to hold this position is a service to society, and (in cases where it is just a job rather than obviously being a service) we should avoid that. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- I broadly agree with Edwardx's edits, though there may well be cases where "serves" is appropriate. However, I disagree with the edit summary. I don't think it is a matter of neutrality. I would use an edit summary along the lines of "plain English". The text being removed is often just verbiage, and not the great writing we aspire to. If a link was desired for plain English, there is the essay Wikipedia:Use plain English. Nurg (talk) 00:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- We also need to consider narrative flow. It is utterly tedious to read an article where every sentence is "Smith was this, and then Smith was that, and after that Smith was the other thing". Phrases like "served as" break up the tedium, which is sometimes necessary for readability. BD2412 T 00:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- This is dubious... repetitive prose usually derives from syntax problems, in which case the solution is not to start substituting synonyms. See WP:ELEVAR.
- "serves as" is usually not the simplest and most direct way of solving the sentence. Popcornfud (talk) 01:20, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- It is bog-standard terminology, however. See, e.g., William Francis Rocheleau, Great American Industries: Manufactures (1900), p. 8: "The stick served as a lever, and the stone as a weight". No lofty subjective praise is read into that. It is more descriptive than "was". BD2412 T 17:39, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, it's an extremely commonplace construction, it's just usually not the simplest one.
- Your "stick served as a lever" example is actually a different usage of "to serve" — it means in the sense of using something to achieve another purpose, like a field serving as a parking lot. Joe Biden is not serving as the US president in the same sense. Popcornfud (talk) 18:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how False Title applies to this at all, as it has nothing to do with adding or substituting synonyms; it actually argues against excessive brevity. Wikipedia, just as the False Title essay points out, is, unlike newspapers, not constrained for space. Good/great writing is not only about writing in the simplest, most terse, manner.
- I've found some past discussions here on WP about the matter, but nothing outside of WP that suggests there's something nefarious or dissembling or puffery-ish about use of serving as/serves as/served as etc.
- The past discussions:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Archive_221#%22Serving_as%22_in_lede_of_politics_articles
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Marcia_Fudge/Archive_1#How_should_we_word_the_lead_sentence?
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch/Archive_7
- The last one there has the most discussion, and while I only skimmed through it, the sense seemed to be that it's not problematic per se, and certainly not harmful, but could be but isn't strictly puffery/PoV.
- In my personal opinion which holds zero weight, it strikes me as over-policing of speech. Also of no weight at all but interesting, from etymonline, '[...] Sense of "be useful, be beneficial, be suitable for a purpose or function" is from early 14c.; that of "take the place or meet the needs of, be equal to the task" is from late 14c. [...]" - all of which seems to be its use in this context.
- Amusingly, in its earliest usage in the late 12th century, it had the connotation of 'be a slave'. Quite the opposite of puffery! Fortunately, this is not the 12th century.
- When people have asked me in the past what I do for a living, I can recall saying, for example, 'well, in one aspect of my job I served as [...], but I also served as [...]" when describing my job functions within a company, since in many of my jobs I wore multiple hats. Perhaps though I was overcompensating for a lack of self-esteem.
- My sense - in terms of WP and non-rigid standards/practices - is that we should just do as we do with date formatting, BC/BCE, and other things - if it's one way in an article, leave it that way, if it's the other way, leave it that way. I don't think it needs wholesale replacement. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 19:17, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- My bad — I linked to the wrong essay entirely. WP:ELEVAR is what I was thinking of. Sorry for the confusion. Popcornfud (talk) 19:47, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Nice essay. Just an essay, though, and one that provides no counterpoint to the problem of repetitive monotony, which makes it harder to actually maintain focus while reading a text. This is not an all-or-nothing proposition, there can be a middle ground, and there are definitely circumstances where "served as" is more informative to the reader than merely "was". A person can hold an office in name only and do nothing in it, and it can accurately be said that the person "was" whatever the title of the office was, but not that they "served as" the holder of that office. BD2412 T 20:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Apart from elegant variation, we there is also avoidance of close paraphrasing, the need to phrase things differently to the source. (I agree that "served" is usually better than "was".) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:42, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- Nice essay. Just an essay, though, and one that provides no counterpoint to the problem of repetitive monotony, which makes it harder to actually maintain focus while reading a text. This is not an all-or-nothing proposition, there can be a middle ground, and there are definitely circumstances where "served as" is more informative to the reader than merely "was". A person can hold an office in name only and do nothing in it, and it can accurately be said that the person "was" whatever the title of the office was, but not that they "served as" the holder of that office. BD2412 T 20:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- My bad — I linked to the wrong essay entirely. WP:ELEVAR is what I was thinking of. Sorry for the confusion. Popcornfud (talk) 19:47, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- It is bog-standard terminology, however. See, e.g., William Francis Rocheleau, Great American Industries: Manufactures (1900), p. 8: "The stick served as a lever, and the stone as a weight". No lofty subjective praise is read into that. It is more descriptive than "was". BD2412 T 17:39, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- We also need to consider narrative flow. It is utterly tedious to read an article where every sentence is "Smith was this, and then Smith was that, and after that Smith was the other thing". Phrases like "served as" break up the tedium, which is sometimes necessary for readability. BD2412 T 00:53, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I broadly agree with Edwardx's edits, though there may well be cases where "serves" is appropriate. However, I disagree with the edit summary. I don't think it is a matter of neutrality. I would use an edit summary along the lines of "plain English". The text being removed is often just verbiage, and not the great writing we aspire to. If a link was desired for plain English, there is the essay Wikipedia:Use plain English. Nurg (talk) 00:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- I would prefer to see this sort of phrasing only for unpaid roles that one might actually consider as service rather than employment. Or maybe for someone serving in the armed forces; that's also commonly called service. But not for just a job, CEO or otherwise. "Served as" has the connotation that to hold this position is a service to society, and (in cases where it is just a job rather than obviously being a service) we should avoid that. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'll just add the relevant essay here, since to my surprise it hasn't been mentioned yet. WP:AREYOUBEINGSERVED Popcornfud (talk) 08:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
I see that @Edwardx: continues to purge the terms "serves", "served" etc from articles, but with no rationale, just 'copyedit'. I repeat my objections - however mild - to this, as there's no policy or guideline or even reliable source that I can find that states that those terms are bad/wrong/inappropriate/manipulative/disembling/deceitful/nefarious/must be purged from Wikipedia.
I, and probably most people, wouldn't get the impression that Jamie Dimon is a public servant if his bio noted that he 'serves as the chairman and chief executive officer (CEO) of JPMorgan Chase'. I see no difference between "serves as", "acts as", "works as". It means filling a role and doing a job. It's plain english.
It doesn't praise or denigrate to say "X served as regional manager" rather than "X was regional manager", or even "X acted as regional manager". WP:ELEVAR suggests avoidance of excessive use of variable wording, particularly where it introduces confusion. I don't think it argues that variety in terminology is to be avoided at all costs.
As I suggested before, if an editor runs across an existing article and it uses 'is/was' or 'serves/served' etc., leave it as you found it, as both are reasonable. Absent some guidance that these words are problematic, I think that's a fair compromise.
As there's no clear consensus above, perhaps someone can link to any reliable sources outside WP that argues that there's something inherently problematic with the terms. I can't find any. The terms are used broadly in business, politics, academia, research, activism, and more. We shouldn't be making up language rules based on whims. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 21:36, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Edwardx please stop making this change. It is the equivalent of changing “till” to “until”; both forms are acceptable, and you have better ways to spend your time than policing the way people use English. — HTGS (talk) 22:54, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- While I don't necessarily disagree with the edit on one level (per my comment earlier), I have only made such an edit myself as part of a larger and more significant edit (as far as I recall). In the context of the copy editing that can be done, it is quite a minor issue. To address the last sentence of Edwardx's post, I don't think there should be a campaign to remove the wording from all articles. I suggest to Edwardx that they focus rather on more worthwhile edits. Nurg (talk) 23:36, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- I just did a random spotcheck of some of Edwardx's "copyedit" edits. All three of the edits I reviewed ([1], [2], [3]) look like improvements to me and good examples of where simple "be" verbs do the job better than "serve". Popcornfud (talk) 08:21, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks to everyone for their varied and interesting thoughts, and especially to anastrophe for uncovering some earlier pertinent discussions. Stepping outside of Wikipedia for a wider view (and we should be seeking to mirror what is written in reliable secondary sources anyway), I have been looking at how obituaries in the leading reliable sources and profiles in Britannica.com, Biography.com, Forbes.com, Simple Wikipedia, etc. None of them use "serves/served as" to describe for-profit CEO/chairman/director roles. For political and military people, they generally avoid it in the opening sentence, and often in the entire first paragraph. We should be seeking to emulate the best secondary sources. The nuances of language matter, especially in the lead, which is all that most of our readers bother with. Using "serves/served as" can be seen as a value judgement, it is needlessly verbose and we should prefer plain English.
- My (reconsidered) view is that we should not use "serves/served as" to describe any for-profit CEO/chairman/director roles, and we should avoid it in the first paragraph of any biography. Edwardx (talk) 11:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
- I see that the removal of "serves/served" etc continues apace, now eliminating it even from military service. I am compiling some information regarding this matter which I'll post later. I still await any reliable sources that state that 'served/serving' etc biased/subjective/a value judgement/to be avoided. I am only going through Britannica.com thus far, and the claim that 'none of them use serves/served as to describe for-profit CEO/chairman/director roles' is not reproducible.
- When the difference between "verbose" and "plain" is a matter three letters, I think we're in trouble of reducing WP to a very low literacy threshold. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 20:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
Collapsed below is a list of biography entries from brittanica.com. I've done my best to randomly poke around through different disciplines but it's obviously not comprehensive; in fact, the list is short, because I've spent way too much time finessing the formatting to wikitext; that's also why I haven't bothered with visiting the other online encyclopedias, I've put more than enough work into this as it is. I prefer to make decisions based on information, not speculation or personal observations in a vacuum.
I have excluded any person whose notability is primarily in public service – politicians, military leaders – or where the only use of 'serves/served/serving/' etc. is in regard public service outside of their primary notability. If I had included its use in public service bios, I'd estimate the list would be half-again larger.
The split between 'public service' and 'not public service' is not black & white at times, and I'm open to striking any for which a compelling argument against inclusion is tendered. I would note, however, that in earlier discussion the split was on formal public service, i.e. political/government/military service, which seemed less of an issue in discussion. Working for a publicly-funded organization, or one that receives some level of government funding, doesn't explicitly mean it's "public service", imo.
I've restricted findings to occurrences in the first or second graf; only the latter is noted when it occurs. Editor Edwardx is not confining the removal to the first or second graf, I would note – all instances are seemingly being removed, but I haven't reviewed every single edit; if I'm mistaken, apologies.
The only elisions are when the use is in the first sentence, as it would mean including birthdate/place etc.
I could discern no obvious inclination or reluctance on Brittanica in using the term. Brittanica seems to have no issue with its use in business bios. I acknowledge my own confirmation bias in this, as I hope others would of their own findings. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 17:55, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
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André Lwoff – French biologist (2nd): Andrew Dickson White – American educator and diplomat (2nd): Anna Wintour – British editor (2nd): Azim Premji – Indian businessman: Barry Diller – American media executive: Beno Gutenberg – American seismologist (2nd): Carlo Rubbia – Italian physicist: Carol Ann Duffy – British poet: Columbus O'D. Iselin – American oceanographer (2nd): Craig C. Mello – American geneticist: (indirect usage) Denis Diderot – French philosopher: Dumas Malone – American historian, editor, author: Ellen Fitz Pendleton – American educator: Fenton J. A. Hort – British biblical scholar: Franz Mehring – German historian and journalist (2nd): Fukui Toshihiko – Japanese economist and banker: Georges Cuvier – French zoologist (2nd): Henry Dunster – American minister and educator (2nd): Hunter S. Thompson – American journalist (2nd): Ignacy Krasicki – Polish poet (2nd): Indra Nooyi – American business executive: Ita Buttrose – Australian journalist, editor, businesswoman: Jackie Milburn – British football player: James Manning – American educator: Jerzy Neyman – Polish mathematician and statistician (2nd): John McPhee – American journalist (2nd): John Pond – British astronomer: Lei Jun – Chinese entrepreneur: Lene Hau – Danish scientist: Lou Gerstner – American businessman: Maria Ramos – Portuguese South African economist and businesswoman: Marissa Mayer – American software engineer and businesswoman: Martin Evans – British scientist (2nd): Meg Whitman – American business executive and politician: Moses Hess – German author and zionist (2nd): Myron C. Taylor – American financier and diplomat (2nd): Nora Perry – American journalist and poet: Ohno Taiichi – Japanese businessman (2nd): Ozzie Guillen – American baseball player, coach, and manager (2nd): Patricia A. Woertz – American business executive: Paul Gervais – French paleontologist and zoologist: Paul Nurse – British scientist (2nd): Ray Stannard Baker – American writer (2nd): Reed Hastings – American entrepreneur: Rex W. Tillerson – American businessman and statesman (2nd): Rex Warner – British writer (2nd): Robert Nardelli – American businessman: Roger Ailes – American television producer and political consultant: Rubem Braga – Brazilian journalist (2nd): Saad al-Hariri – prime minister of Lebanon (lede begins with 'Lebanese businessman') (2nd): Shirley M. Tilghman – Canadian molecular biologist: Sir Julian Huxley – British biologist (2nd): Sir Michael Ernest Sadler – English educator (2nd): Tom Brokaw – American television journalist and author (2nd): Ulf von Euler – Swedish physiologist (2nd): Umberto Agnelli – Italian industrialist: Ursula Burns – American executive: W. Averell Harriman – American diplomat (2nd): Walter Cronkite – (2nd): William Rainey Harper – American educator: William S. Paley – American executive: |
So, I posted factual information here two days ago that clearly shows that "[...]the leading reliable sources and profiles in Britannica.com [...]
use 'served/serves' in biographies for people in "[...] for-profit CEO/chairman/director roles [...]"
, contrary to the claim that none of them do, and that it is used [...] in the opening sentence, and often in the entire first paragraph."
I agree that "We should be seeking to emulate the best secondary sources"
, and one of the best sources uses the terms. I can find no reliable secondary sources - none, anywhere - that claim or even allude that "Using "serves/served as" can be seen as a value judgement [...]"
. Yet the purging of the term continues. We should not be making wholesale changes to WP based upon vague feelings, when we have objective evidence that the terms are acceptable for one of the best reliable sources. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 21:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Perhaps we can have a compromise. It seems perfectly fine to change “serves as” in the present tense, for simplicity, but for those positions once-held, the past tense should not be changed. What do you think, @Edwardx? — HTGS (talk) 22:26, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps there's a UK/US component here, and certainly there's a lot of personal preference, but whenever I read "Joe Biden is serving as the Nth president" or some-such, I wonder what the REAL president is up to while this Biden stand-in fellow does his job. This is a usage not dissimilar to Popcornfud's example above "Q. is it really a car park? A. No, but it will serve", ie is an adequate substitute. Clearly military serve abroad and in their particular branch and it is not uncommon to thus refer to diplomats, but isn't it the most common usage for political/public roles that "Biden is" and "Trump was" president. What useful purpose does the more elaborate phrasing serve? Pincrete (talk) 09:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Again, we keep going with personal opinions and speculation, and apparently evidence is not helpful at best, dismissed at worst (while we're here, Pincrete can you explain your addition of "Italic text" to the William Rainey Harper entry in the collapsed section above?)
I've never come across the notion that the term confuses people into thinking there is a shadow presidency or other conflations. It seems a stretch, and only if one is overthinking the plain language presented. In my opinion.
The various iterations of how the term 'serve/s/d' is used differently aren't a strong argument against this usage - shall we digress, for example, into the definition and usage of the term 'set', in all its 430 (and growing) distinct usages? If I said "I set the chair aside me", is it likely someone would misinterpret that to mean that I congealed a chair next to me?
I'll refer to sources 'outside of' WP and outside of our own personal opinions (and, again, actually provide the results, rather than 'summarizing' it through my own lens). While not acceptable as reliable secondary sources, they provide a look into what large-language-models "think". I chose three of the better known AI.
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ChatGPT1.) Me: "What does it mean to "serve as" a position?" ChatGPT: "To "serve as" a position typically means to fulfill the duties and responsibilities associated with that position. For example, if someone serves as the CEO of a company, it means they are in the role of CEO and are performing the tasks and making the decisions expected of someone in that position. It implies active engagement and participation in the role, rather than merely holding the title." 2.) Me: "Does the term "serves as" in relation to a job imply a value judgement?" ChatGPT: "No, the term "serves as" in relation to a job or position doesn't inherently imply a value judgment. It merely indicates the function or role someone holds within an organization or context. Whether that person performs their duties well or not is separate from the statement itself. For example, saying someone "serves as the manager" doesn't pass judgment on their managerial skills; it simply states their position within the company." Google Gemini1.) Me: "What does it mean to "serve as" a position?" Gemini: When someone "serves as" a position, it means they hold that position and fulfill its duties and responsibilities. Here's a breakdown:
For example:
Here are some synonyms for "serve as":
2.) Me: "Does the term "serves as" in relation to a job imply a value judgement?" Gemini: "No, the term "serves as" in relation to a job typically doesn't imply a value judgment. Here's why:
For example:
However, there are some situations where the context can introduce a subtle judgment:
Even in this case, the judgment is more about the unexpectedness of the situation, not the job itself. Overall, "serves as" remains a neutral way to describe someone's role in a job. The surrounding context is more likely to introduce a value judgment than the term itself." Anthropic Claude1.) Me: "What does it mean to "serve as" a position?" Claude: The phrase "to serve as" something typically means to function in a particular role or capacity. Some examples: - She serves as the president of the company. (Meaning she holds and performs the duties of the president role) - This document will serve as a contract between the two parties. (Meaning this document will function as and be treated as the official contract) - The internship will serve as valuable work experience. (Meaning the internship will provide and act as beneficial work experience) - This valley serves as a wildlife corridor. (Meaning this valley functions as a route/pathway that wildlife use to travel between habitats) So in general, to "serve as" a position, role, thing, etc. means to act in that capacity or perform the purpose/function of that position, role or thing. It denotes taking on the responsibilities, duties or purpose associated with whatever is stated after "serve as." Let me know if this explanation makes sense! 2.) Me: "Does the term "serves as" in relation to a job imply a value judgement?" Claude: "When used in relation to a job or position that someone holds, the term "serves as" does not inherently imply a positive or negative value judgment. It is still simply stating what role or capacity that person is functioning in. For example: "John serves as the company's CEO." This is just a factual statement about the position John holds, without any implied criticism or praise of his performance in that role. "She serves as the head of the marketing department." Again, this is just objectively describing her job title and responsibilities, not making a subjective assessment of how well she does that job. "He currently serves as a judge on the district court." Stating the position or occupation someone has, without judging whether they are good or bad at being a judge. The phrase "serves as" is still just descriptive and denotative in this context, not connotative or evaluative. It does not automatically signal whether the person is doing a good or poor job in that role. Only additional context clues, like describing the person as "effectively serves as" or "poorly serves as" would start to imply an evaluative judgment of their performance. But the base "serves as" phrase alone is still just stating the role itself, not judging the quality of their service in that role. It remains an objective descriptor when used in relation to jobs or positions. |
cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 19:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
I have been replacing phrasings such as "John Doe serves as the CEO of XYZ Inc", with "John Doe is the CEO of XYZ Inc"
: Good. Having such a role is not "service" in any meaningful sense, and using that term in that context is clearly promotional/aggrandizing (MOS:PEACOCK). We might get a consensus that the term is more properly applicable to the military, maybe to political office and civil service positions, and conceivably even to ecclesiastical roles, but after 20+ years it's clear there is no consensus appetite for using such language with regard to commercial job titles and board/officer positions. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:45, 27 April 2024 (UTC)- Have you read the discussion above? Your opinion is noted; however, the evidence suggests that you are wrong. No editor has yet provided any evidence - only personal opinion - regarding the matter. I've presented evidence that it is not peacock wording, and that other leading reliable sources (Brittanica) have no disinclination to using the term. There's nothing promotional or aggrandizing to state that someone hold a particular job or fills a particular position. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 03:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
For a lot of people, "served" contains an implication of positivity. This is easiest to see in non-uses of the term. According to us (Wikipedia), Elizabeth Holmes didn't "serve" as CEO of Theranos; Sam Bankman-Fried didn't "serve" as CEO of FTX; Gregory W. Becker didn't "serve" as CEO of Silicon Valley Bank; Richard S. Fuld Jr. didn't "serve" as the final CEO of Lehman Brothers; Kenneth Lay didn't "serve" as CEO of Enron; Putin doesn't "serve" as President of Russia; (let's jump straight to it...) Hitler didn't "serve" as Chancellor of Germany (but the first Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany did). (Brittanica follows this pattern for ones I've found, except Putin, who acquired "served" in 2008 and still has it.) This association of "serve" with something positive or at least self-sacrificing doesn't hold in all cases, of course, but there's plenty of evidence that it exists. EddieHugh (talk) 15:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- This phenomenon is perhaps a combination of two definitions of "serve" found in various dictionaries – "provide with something that is needed" and "work for; to do your duty to". That's Cambridge dictionaries. Britannica has: "to provide what is needed by or for (someone or something)" and "to hold a particular office, position, etc. : to perform a duty or job". Examples from Collins: "If you serve your country, an organization, or a person, you do useful work for them" and "If you serve in a particular place or as a particular official, you perform official duties". By using "serve" for various leaders, we can be seen as impying that, in addition to leading, their acts as leaders were useful or needed. EddieHugh (talk) 16:12, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
"For a lot of people [...]"
Can you quantify this? If I wrote "For a lot of people, "served" contains no implication, positive or negative", would that hold any more water? Instead, I think a more honest construct would be that "Some people infer that "served" expresses praise; some other people don't make that inferrence"."This is easiest to see in non-uses of the term."
Is it easy though? The Elizabeth Holmes article here appears to have not used the term either before or after her fall. Same for Sam Bankman-Fried. Gregory Becker's article did use it - until Edwardx removed it this past January, so that's a null example. Contrarily, here on WP- José Napoleón Duarte 'served as president of El Salvador'
- Joseph Stalin 'was the longest-serving leader of the Soviet Union'
- Pol Pot 'served as General Secretary of the Communist Party of Kampuchea'
- Saddam Hussein 'served as the fifth president of Iraq from 1979 to 2003'
- What is 'easy to see' is that there are no easy to see patterns of its usage across an array of biographies, both on WP and Brittanica - probably because it doesn't imply praise, though it wouldn't surprise me if there are some folks who believe Stalin got a bad rap.
"By using "serve" for various leaders, we can be seen as impying that, in addition to leading, their acts as leaders were useful or needed.
Only the Collins' definition adds a modifier that could be inferred to mean 'praise' - 'useful' (and that is some seriously weak "praise"). In all of the others, it describes utility. Alone, the term is neutral; only if we add modifiers does it carry a value judgment. What is a value judgement is how some editors infer praise in an otherwise neutral term. I don't think we're required to dumb-down wikipedia to cater to the whims of some editors. cheers. anastrophe, an editor he is. 20:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)- For a lot of people is implicit in its non-use in high-profile articles on Wikipedia, which is edited by... a lot of people; it's also supported by basic dictionary definitions: surely "useful" is a positive quality; and surely the definitions that refer to providing what is needed are indicating something positive, too. Yes, "a lot of people" applies to the opposite view, too. But what's the benefit of using "serve" when for plenty of people (backed up by basic dictionary definitions) it implies something positive? Why not use another word ("be" is the obvious choice) that is unlikely to cause any such interpretation from anyone? (Noting that I agree with some of the readability points above – eg, don't use the same word repeatedly.) EddieHugh (talk) 18:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
For a lot of people, "served" contains an implication of positivity.
Not necessarily. For example, prison sentences; "serving one's sentence" is the most common way of referring to someone's time incarcerated. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:17, 28 April 2024 (UTC)- That's a different case, based on a different meaning of the word; I don't think anyone's proposing changing that. EddieHugh (talk) 18:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's not, they're based on the same meaning. See the Google definition,
spend (a period) in office, in an apprenticeship, or in prison.
‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:41, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's not, they're based on the same meaning. See the Google definition,
- That's a different case, based on a different meaning of the word; I don't think anyone's proposing changing that. EddieHugh (talk) 18:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
RfC: "convicted felon" / "convicted sex offender" in the lead sentence
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Regarding MOS:FIRSTBIO, which says in part The opening paragraph of a biographical article should neutrally describe the person, provide context, establish notability and explain why the person is notable, and reflect the balance of reliable sources.
Should this include or exclude the terms "convicted felon" or "convicted sex offender" in cases where the subject is notable for something else but is also a convicted felon or sex offender? Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein are two key examples where edit warring of the lead sentence to include or exclude this phrasing has occurred. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe this falls into RGW territory, but I think it should list the crime specifically. “Sex offender” can mean anything from rape in a dark alley to being gay before 2003, it doesn’t really tell the reader anything and depending on the crime it can actively mislead them. Same for felonies in general.
- Whereas if you say “convicted rapist”, that maintains notability while being unambiguous. Likewise for felonies, “convicted felon” doesn’t really say anything. Did they commit arson or did they bounce a check? Snokalok (talk) 18:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- It depends. The opening sentence of an article should explain what the subject is primarily notable for. Someone like Jeffrey Dhalmer is really only notable for his crimes. The opening sentence appropriately focuses on his mass murder. People like Epstein and Weinstein, on the other hand, are notable for a lot besides their crimes. While we definitely should NOT ignore their crimes, we should not highlight their crimes over the other things that make them notable. A more nuanced opening sentence is more appropriate (Epstein was a businessman who committed sex crimes… Weinstein was a Hollywood film producer who committed sex crimes). Blueboar (talk) 18:47, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'd say the answer is almost always no, at least for the felon part. That's rarely why these kinds of individuals are notable in sum total, and it almost always feels like a smear rather than neutral statement of fact (Safiya Bukhari is a convicted felon, but that's absolutely not the summation of her career, to pick another example.) Even if someone like Donald Trump got convicted, which would be an immensely historic and notable event in America, it still wouldn't make sense to say the most important thing about him was that he had a criminal conviction in the first breaths. The only places I think it makes sense is when the person's claim to notability is central to why they even have an entry (such as their criminal acts being the only reason they have an article.) There's also the issue of the fact that "sex offender" or "felon" is a massive gamut of potential crimes and would essentially lump without elaboration; to take the previous entries together, that a civil rights activist who got a patently unfair trial is equivalent to a Hollywood sex pest. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:47, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Almost always no. If their crimes are a major enough aspect for a first-sentence mention, it should almost always be possible to be more precise. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Snokalok. We should describe the actual crime (and not just when the perpetrator is independently notable). So for instance, HH Holmes is described as a
con artist and serial killer
, not just as a felon. - In these particular cases, Harvey Weinstein would be described as a "convicted rapist" and Jeffery Epstein as a "convicted child sex trafficker". In both of these cases, I think enough of their notability is for the crimes that this should be a first sentence mention. Loki (talk) 19:49, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- It should be case by case weighing the reliable sources about the person. I don't think a blanket rule prohibiting the use of "convicted felon" is logical. Otherwise we might as well change FIRSTBIO to only include the first reason the person was notable. Nemov (talk) 20:08, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- It depends on if their crime is the reason for their notability. In most cases it's better to treat it with more detail and context further on, e.g.
X is an American musician and entertainer. In 20xx they were convicted on Y counts of Z.
ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC) - Agree with everyone here. When I see "convicted felon" crammed into the first sentence of the lede, it's often a red flag that the writer wants to cry "Shame! shame!", but realizes that the details would make the person seem not evil enough. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Exclude per WP:LABEL and instead describe the conviction in the first sentence if that is their main notability. Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:07, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- This is an issue that's come up at DYK and ITN. The common problem is that if you are trying to say something about a person in one sentence, there is nearly no way there is sufficient context in that one sentence to explain that subjective negatively-toned phrase (even if 100% objectively true) and provide the context that is appropriate to explain what for or other aspects related to that, which makes the phrase stand out as non-impartial or dispassionate writing. Where there is more space to supply the full details (like what they were convicted of), such as later in the lede or within the body, that language is fine. BLP does not require listing everything a person is notable for in one lede sentence, and to me it makes much more sense to wait a sentence or two, or even one or two lede paragraphs, to address such topics so that the lede works from the most objective material to more subjective later, using to opportunity in later paragraphs to give that context and breathing room.
The only exception here would be for a person where their only means of notability is from doing or suspected of a crime, in which case it's hard to say anything else for a lede sentence. — Masem (t) 21:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC) - For both those people, without reading either article, I would expect to see details of their crimes in the second sentence, but not the first. This conforms with what you have quoted above, and I see no need to change it. In most cases I would not write simply “convicted X”. These people are notable for their crimes, not for the fact that they were convicted. We lead with the conviction because we don’t want to be unclear and to avoid allegations of libel. — HTGS (talk) 22:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Unless the primary reason someone is notable is a crime or crimes they committed, no, I don't think we should be describing them in the first sentence as "convicted felon" or "convicted sex offender". And really anywhere in the article we should report what RS are reporting, and unless are RS are calling them those things, we shouldn't either. We should report what RS are saying: "In 2014, X was convicted of a sex crime." "In 2024, Y was convicted of securities fraud." Or whatever. Valereee (talk) 00:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- To me, this is where a bio is really no different than any other article. I could start off an article about, say... capacitors by saying, "A capacitor is a component used in making pulsed-power energy weapons." But what I have there is a headline meant to grab attention, yet tells me absolutely nothing about what the subject is. The first sentence of any article should answer the question of what in the broadest, simplest terms possible, and that rarely consists of some label. It will be vague, but that's fine. Details are for later. Only in cases where that's all the subject is notable for, such as Charles Manson, would that even make sense. In most cases, the person is something else, whether notable for it or not, but that something provides context for whatever crime or label they became notable for. For example, Mary Kay Letourneau begins "...was an American sex offender and teacher who pleaded guilty in 1997 to two counts of felony second-degree rape of a child." The label is rather redundant and pointless, but is also preceding the context needed to explain it, so it's awkward to read. What she "was" was a school teacher. That provides context for what she did, which was have sex with her student. One needs to precede the other for the story to flow coherently, and the same is true for any article. Every sentence is context for the following sentences. Zaereth (talk) 01:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think this is what you're saying is
...was an American
works better? If so, I agree. — HTGS (talk) 02:49, 26 April 2024 (UTC)sex offender andteacher who pleaded guilty in 1997 to two counts of felony second-degree rape of a child- Yeah, that's partly what I mean. I agree with many here that much of the use of labels is often more a case of recentism and emotion. Labels are a convenient way of boiling something down to a pure stereotype, which makes them very effective at eliciting an emotional response. But they're not one bit objective and an example of a poor way to write an article. We're no longer conveying facts but trying to provoke a gut-reaction emotional response to persuade the reader to a particular opinion, and those who say otherwise would only be fooling themselves. As an example of a well written article, see Adolph Hitler. We don't start off by saying he was a bigot and a mass murderer. He was, but we don't need to resort to name calling and such emotionally charged words to convey it, nor does it need to be in the first sentence. We start off with his role in German government and the Nazi party, which is the logical place to start, and then go on to describe all the horrible things he did. Those horrible things speak very loudly of their own accord, we don't need to add labels as a big exclamation point. That's what a very well-written article should look like, and a bio of a living person is no different. Zaereth (talk) 18:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- I fully agree with you, and also see parallels to discussions regarding a select few political articles starting with "....is an American far-right politician" ... but perhaps that is a wholly separate conversation. To me, labels shoehorned into the lead sentence like this doesn't seem encyclopedic and gets into RGW territory. Connormah (talk) 20:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Connormah, but it's more than just shoehorning labels into the first sentence. This is where it gets difficult to explain to people, so bear with me here, but much of what separates good writing from bad is counterintuitive. People put all this huge emphasis on the importance of the first sentence, but for all the wrong reasons. The first sentence, also called the "topic sentence", is simply to provide a starting point, and it's important only for providing the necessary context for the next sentences. But it's not --by far-- the most important sentence of the article nor the one people will remember. What people will always remember is the last sentence, and --by far-- the most important sentence of the entire article is the last sentence of the first paragraph, which is called the "thesis sentence". Note in the Hitler article, the thesis sentence is where we describe his genocide. That's why the article is so well written, and why these others read like they were written by 4th graders. Zaereth (talk) 03:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly. I've been trying to highlight this problem for years, but this is a succinct way of explaining why the lede sentence doesn't need to be crammed with everything a topic is notable - as long as that's achieved by the lede paragraph or in some cases the whole lede, if we are properly summarizing the article. I believe a lot of the current problematic examples are driven by editors that feel that these bad behaviors must be called out ASAP, but that just doesn't gel with good encyclopedic writing. Masem (t) 04:21, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Very well put by both of you - I agree fully. Connormah (talk) 04:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- I've been right there with you, Masem, at least at BLPN. It's just so counterintuitive that it goes in one ear and out the other, but I'm not making this stuff up. Plenty of sources out there to confirm this, which is why I think a lot of these problems could be solved if we simply had some guidelines on good writing practices. I don't think it's a problem we can solve by simply adding more rules, because rules can never encompass every possibility. But if people could see that what they're arguing for is really a hinderance to the goal they're trying to achieve, maybe they'd be less apt to put so much emphasis on the first sentence. Everything before the thesis sentence is merely a starting point and a pathway leading up to the most important aspect of the subject. Zaereth (talk) 04:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Very well put by both of you - I agree fully. Connormah (talk) 04:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Exactly. I've been trying to highlight this problem for years, but this is a succinct way of explaining why the lede sentence doesn't need to be crammed with everything a topic is notable - as long as that's achieved by the lede paragraph or in some cases the whole lede, if we are properly summarizing the article. I believe a lot of the current problematic examples are driven by editors that feel that these bad behaviors must be called out ASAP, but that just doesn't gel with good encyclopedic writing. Masem (t) 04:21, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Connormah, but it's more than just shoehorning labels into the first sentence. This is where it gets difficult to explain to people, so bear with me here, but much of what separates good writing from bad is counterintuitive. People put all this huge emphasis on the importance of the first sentence, but for all the wrong reasons. The first sentence, also called the "topic sentence", is simply to provide a starting point, and it's important only for providing the necessary context for the next sentences. But it's not --by far-- the most important sentence of the article nor the one people will remember. What people will always remember is the last sentence, and --by far-- the most important sentence of the entire article is the last sentence of the first paragraph, which is called the "thesis sentence". Note in the Hitler article, the thesis sentence is where we describe his genocide. That's why the article is so well written, and why these others read like they were written by 4th graders. Zaereth (talk) 03:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- I fully agree with you, and also see parallels to discussions regarding a select few political articles starting with "....is an American far-right politician" ... but perhaps that is a wholly separate conversation. To me, labels shoehorned into the lead sentence like this doesn't seem encyclopedic and gets into RGW territory. Connormah (talk) 20:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's partly what I mean. I agree with many here that much of the use of labels is often more a case of recentism and emotion. Labels are a convenient way of boiling something down to a pure stereotype, which makes them very effective at eliciting an emotional response. But they're not one bit objective and an example of a poor way to write an article. We're no longer conveying facts but trying to provoke a gut-reaction emotional response to persuade the reader to a particular opinion, and those who say otherwise would only be fooling themselves. As an example of a well written article, see Adolph Hitler. We don't start off by saying he was a bigot and a mass murderer. He was, but we don't need to resort to name calling and such emotionally charged words to convey it, nor does it need to be in the first sentence. We start off with his role in German government and the Nazi party, which is the logical place to start, and then go on to describe all the horrible things he did. Those horrible things speak very loudly of their own accord, we don't need to add labels as a big exclamation point. That's what a very well-written article should look like, and a bio of a living person is no different. Zaereth (talk) 18:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think this is what you're saying is
- I oppose the use of the terms "convicted felon" and "sex offender" in the first sentence of biographies except for cases where 1) the commission of those crimes is the primary reason for the subject's notability and 2) there isn't a better way to describe the subject and their crimes. I believe the use of those terms comes across like an attempt to smear or shame the subject, but more importantly I think describing the specific crimes a person was convicted for (if DUE) provides a more accurate picture for readers. Hatman31 (talk) 02:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- One thing I would add to the above discussion is that the main reasons a person is notable can shift over time as the body of reliable sources about them grows; it isn't fixed in time at the point they first became notable. For Epstein in particular, surely the coverage of him as a high-profile sex trafficker far outstrips whatever notability he had in other aspects of his life, and the lead sentence should reflect that.--Trystan (talk) 02:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that someone like Epstein is now most written about because of the girls, but being a highly connected, mega-rich financier facilitated his deeds. Putting "American financier who …" and then summarising the crimes, is a more efficient way of providing context IMO. Pincrete (talk) 07:36, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- What is the reason behind saying "convicted"? Senorangel (talk) 04:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Because that makes it obvious that we're not accusing them of a crime out of nowhere, we are reporting the results of the court. It's important to be careful with accusations of crime because of the possibility of libel. We wouldn't have wanted to say, for instance, that OJ Simpson is a murderer in Wikivoice because he was never convicted. Loki (talk) 05:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Convicted" does not seem to be necessary because, in the absence of court rulings, the first sentence should not describe a person as a criminal. The RFC proposes "convicted criminal", not "convicted of a crime". It appears to strengthen the case for a crime, not trying to be careful with the accusation. Senorangel (talk) 04:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- Because that makes it obvious that we're not accusing them of a crime out of nowhere, we are reporting the results of the court. It's important to be careful with accusations of crime because of the possibility of libel. We wouldn't have wanted to say, for instance, that OJ Simpson is a murderer in Wikivoice because he was never convicted. Loki (talk) 05:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
When I see "convicted felon" crammed into the first sentence of the lede, it's often a red flag that the writer wants to cry "Shame! shame!"
Stylistically, and in more efficiently fully relating the narrativeLetourneau ... was an American
works better. As doessex offender andteacher who pleaded guilty in 1997 to two counts of felony second-degree rape of a childWeinstein ... was an American
ditto how one would write Epstein or Jimmy Savile as their profession followed by their 'crime' stated explicitly wherever possible. I have so often found myself arguing that, except in a small number of cases, the previous life is a significant component of the notoriety, not an afterthought. Even if Weinstein is now mainly regarded as an offender, his role in the film world facilitated those offences, ditto Savile, Epstein and Mary Kay Letourneau. So "profession who did this" is the most concise way to give context to the crimes. Nobody bothers to write articles (either in the real world or on WP) about un-finished sex trials committed 45 years ago, unless the accused is famous for other reasons. So even to those who write about his crimes, or who despise him for his crimes, he's the internationally known film director who had sex with a 13 year old model not the accused sex offender who happened to make successful films. I don't also see the sense of 'felon' or 'sex offender' when the charges can be stated explicitly. If it's worth telling me that someone committed a crime, it's worth telling me what it was, otherwise we might just as well say 'bad person'. Where subject's SOLE notability is their crime, this obviously doesn't apply, but those cases are rare and tend to be the most heinous crimes.Pincrete (talk) 07:28, 26 April 2024 (UTC)convicted rapistfilm producer who was found guilty in ???? to XX counts of rape and other sex offences- 100% agreed. If I hadn’t read this I would have written something substantially the same. — HTGS (talk) 05:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
- There is no one-size-fits-all answer to this. There definitely are articles where it gets crammed into the lead in a weird or unnecessary manner, but it's also true that sometimes someone's crimes can overshadow prior notability (we would not, for instance, describe John Wilkes Booth solely as a stage actor in the first sentence of his lead, even though he was famous as that before he became famous for something else.) I would similarly characterize Epstein as someone whose primary notability is now his crimes. --Aquillion (talk) 08:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think that John Wilkes Booth's first sentence is perfect and would not be improved by adding the phrase "convicted felon" to it. (Well, obviously, since he was never actually convicted, but you get what I mean.)
- Part of the confusion here is that while nobody likes the proposition as phrased, the opinions on what to do instead are going in two very different directions. To somewhat oversimplify, one is that we should avoid saying bad things about the subject of the article in the first sentence, and the other is that we should be more specific about the bad things we say about the subject of the article in the first sentence. The way the RFC is currently framed, these two opinions seem to both be taken as "no" when actually they're opposites: if we can't describe Epstein as a convicted child sex trafficker in the first sentence of his article, I would very much prefer "convicted sex offender" to nothing. Loki (talk) 21:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree that it's about avoiding saying bad things about the subject of the article in the first sentence. For me it has nothing to do with that.
- There are two questions here. The first is the terminology RS are using. If the very best RS are using "Convicted sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein", we use it too. If they're instead using "Jeffrey Epstein, who was convicted of sex trafficking," that's what we use. I see that NPR is using "Court documents made public on Wednesday disclosed the names of dozens of powerful men with alleged connections to convicted sex-trafficker Jeffrey Epstein",[4] so that would for me be the argument to use that term.
- Whether it goes in the first sentence is a second question. The lead sentence identifies the person. We don't put every possible label they could be identified with in there; we use the important ones for identifying the person, and we decide which are important by what RS are using as identifiers. Has nothing to do with good or bad. What matters is whether multiple of the best RS are using a term as a primary descriptor. If multiple of the best RS are identifying Epstein as a "financier and convicted sex trafficker", we call him that in the first sentence too. If instead they're saying things like "Financier Jeffrey Epstein, who after being convicted of sex trafficking committed suicide in jail," then no. Valereee (talk) 13:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- I did say it was an oversimplification, so thank you for giving your side of the story.
- That being said, I also don't agree with this take. We rely on the sources for facts, not wording. WP:OUROWNWORDS is just an essay but it explains why this is so better than I could. Loki (talk) 17:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well, as you say that's an essay, not policy, and particularly in the case of the lead sentence for living people, exact wording can be very important. When we're deciding how to identify people, we should follow RS. Valereee (talk) 18:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Exact wording can be very important, which is exactly why we shouldn't dodge the responsibility to craft the best possible wording. There are a variety of problems with pawning off our responsibility to word things appropriately in this way.
- For one, Wikipedia is not a newspaper (or book, or other type of RS) and often the way newspapers word things is contrary to how an encyclopedia would. There are many entries in the WP:MOS where the way we word things is contrary to how many newspapers would. The one that comes to mind immediately is MOS:ENGVAR.
- Second, newspapers (or books, or studies, etc etc) aren't Wikipedia and aren't obligated to follow Wikipedia policy. WP:FALSEBALANCE/false balance calls out a specific common example of this, but several others exist.
- Third, and arguably most importantly, Wikipedia policy allows for the possibility of sources that are biased but reliable for facts. I would never want to decide whether any particular line calls a certain politically charged historical event "the Nakba" vs "the Israeli War of Independence" based on which bias the source containing that fact happens to have. Loki (talk) 20:29, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- But Loki, if NYT/WSJ/NPR/BBC/whatever top quality source aren't calling someone a sex offender, if they're instead saying he was convicted of a sex crime, why would we decide to call him "a sex offender" in the lead rather than saying he was convicted of a sex crime? Valereee (talk) 20:37, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't like "sex offender" myself, but for the wording I prefer, the reason why we'd call someone a rapist rather than a person convicted of rape is because
- a) it scans better
- b) article subjects should have their major sources of notability introduced as early as possible
- c) the longer wording IMO introduces a level of skepticism that is incompatible with WP:NPOV unless we have a concrete reason to doubt it. Loki (talk) 21:00, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- But Loki, if NYT/WSJ/NPR/BBC/whatever top quality source aren't calling someone a sex offender, if they're instead saying he was convicted of a sex crime, why would we decide to call him "a sex offender" in the lead rather than saying he was convicted of a sex crime? Valereee (talk) 20:37, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well, as you say that's an essay, not policy, and particularly in the case of the lead sentence for living people, exact wording can be very important. When we're deciding how to identify people, we should follow RS. Valereee (talk) 18:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- The first sentence is not required to be a full summary of why a person is notable; the lede in total needs to do that, however.
- If a person is sufficiently notable for more than just a conviction or equivalent, even if the conviction is likely more widely attached to the person than the other notable factors (as in all the cases we are discussing here), then having the lede sentence include the conviction can create a total lede that inappropriate in tone required by BLP and NPOV. It is far better to discuss something like a conviction in a separate sentence where one can include the necessary context, rather than forcing just the descriptor in the lede.
- Whenever I see articles that do place convictions in the lede sentence in these situations, it reads as if the editors have been trying to RGW to call out the person as "bad", which is not what we should be doing, Wikipedia should be written amorally to maintain its impartial and dispassionate tone. Masem (t) 18:25, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think "convicted" in the lead sentence of already famous people is often swayed by recentism or campaign to WP:RGW. People like Kellen Winslow II, who were not involved in a "trial of the century", probably have WP:UNDUE weight placed on their crime(s).—Bagumba (talk) 09:37, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- In general, it seems like almost every time I see something like "
, and convicted felon
" in the lead of an article, it could be dropped without much issue. Usually, it does not seem relevant enough to the article to warrant being in the lead. There are a few people famous solely for their criminal acts, like famous serial killers or drug lords or whatever. In this case, we can just say "Alice Jones is a Swiss murderer" or "Bob Smith is a Canadian mafia boss" or whatever in the lead. This also has the advantage of being more accurate. In cases where it's like "Carol Glockenspiel is an Irish-Botswanan lawyer, politician, and convicted felon", where she was on the cover of magazines for all this other stuff 40 years and was disbarred after some kind of legal malpractice mumbo-jumbo -- is it really that important that we need to put in the very first sentence?
- Another thing that's worth noting is that "felony" encompasses a very broad range of things. Dennis Rader is a felon because he raped and murdered a dozen people; Jeff Skilling is a felon because he did the Enron scandal. Martha Stewart is a felon because she did insider trading, which is certainly bad, but she did not rape or murder anyone (as far as I know). We also have people like Tanya McDowell, who spent five years in prison because she lied about where her house was so her son could go to school in a different district, or This guy, who probably doesn't pass GNG, but nonetheless is a felon because he stole a $2 candy bar. I don't want to get into a whole politics thing here, but there are a ton of people who are criminals for very dumb reasons, so it makes me a little uncomfortable to see stuff like this way up in the first sentence of an article. Sure, people are asswipes sometimes. But I think it's pretty obvious that, say, Kenneth Lay was an asswipe, and we don't need to say he was a "convicted felon" for this -- whereas there are a large number of people for whom this seems unfair or unnecessary. I think that being clear about the nature of the crime will make this distinction obvious: if replacing "is a felon" with the actual details of the crime makes the lead sentence sound idiotic and petty, then we know that including it in the lead sentence is idiotic and petty. and we know that we should probably not have it in there. jp×g🗯️ 05:44, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- (Brought here from WP:RFC/A) - Leaning towards the inclusion of more detailed summary of the crimes committed rather than a broad label. Seems most editors agree that "felon" is to vague a term to include into the first sentence. I would say we can't sugar coat Wikipedia, if a person is notable for being a criminal, it wouldn't be accurate to omit that information from the lead. Now it goes without saying that if it is included in the lead, there needs to be matching weight in the body and from reliable sources as to not violate blp protections. MaximusEditor (talk) 16:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- It's more likely that its suitable in the lead, but not in the lead sentence (MOS:ROLEBIO). Too often the lead sentence is an excessive laundry list (and not just for felons). —Bagumba (talk) 16:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Officeholder aristocratic titles
Either there isn't any guidance or I haven't been able to find it, but I've not been able to find any guidance on how aristocratic names are treated in infoboxes or other box lists. I have included Lord Rosebery's infobox as an illustration of the issue. According to MOS:SURNAME the first use of an aristocrat's name should be in full, or using the title that they held at the time they held office. Additionally Wikipedia:NOPIPE suggests that piping the link from 'Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery' to the Earl of Rosebery isn't the right approach. I also don't think simply listing the title without the holder's name is particularly effective, given that a father and son might hold the same office and this might be easily missed by readers. Ecrm87 (talk) 16:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
The Earl of Rosebery | |
---|---|
![]() Rosebery in 1909 | |
Prime Minister of the United Kingdom | |
In office 5 March 1894 – 22 June 1895 | |
Monarch | Victoria |
Preceded by | William Ewart Gladstone |
Succeeded by | The Marquess of Salisbury |
Leader of the Opposition | |
In office 22 June 1895 – 6 October 1896 | |
Prime Minister | The Marquess of Salisbury |
Preceded by | The Marquess of Salisbury |
Succeeded by | Sir William Harcourt |
Lord President of the Council | |
In office 10 March 1894 – 21 June 1895 | |
Prime Minister | Himself |
Preceded by | The Earl of Kimberley |
Succeeded by | The Duke of Devonshire |
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs | |
In office 18 August 1892 – 10 March 1894 | |
Prime Minister | William Ewart Gladstone |
Preceded by | The Marquess of Salisbury |
Succeeded by | The Earl of Kimberley |
In office 6 February 1886 – 3 August 1886 | |
Prime Minister | William Ewart Gladstone |
Preceded by | The Marquess of Salisbury |
Succeeded by | The Earl of Iddesleigh |
Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal | |
In office 5 March 1885 – 9 June 1885 | |
Prime Minister | William Ewart Gladstone |
Preceded by | The Lord Carlingford |
Succeeded by | The Earl of Harrowby |
First Commissioner of Works | |
In office 13 February 1885 – 9 June 1885 | |
Prime Minister | William Ewart Gladstone |
Preceded by | George Shaw-Lefevre |
Succeeded by | David Plunket |
Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department | |
In office August 1881 – June 1883 | |
Prime Minister | William Ewart Gladstone |
Preceded by | Leonard Courtney |
Succeeded by | J. T. Hibbert |
Member of the House of Lords | |
Hereditary peerage 7 May 1868 – 21 May 1929 | |
Preceded by | The 4th Earl of Rosebery |
Succeeded by | The 6th Earl of Rosebery |
Personal details | |
Born | Archibald Philip Primrose 7 May 1847 Mayfair, Middlesex, England |
Died | 21 May 1929 Epsom, Surrey, England | (aged 82)
Resting place | Dalmeny Parish Church, Edinburgh, Scotland |
Political party | Liberal |
Spouse | |
Children | Sybil, Peggy, Harry, and Neil |
Parent(s) | Archibald Primrose, Lord Dalmeny Wilhelmina Powlett, Duchess of Cleveland |
Alma mater | Christ Church, Oxford |
Signature | ![]() |
Ecrm87 (talk) 16:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- There's been sporadic, recurrent dispute about this. The upshot is that editors largely concentrated in the wikiprojects WP:PEERAGE and WP:ROYALTY have decided on their own, in what amounts to a WP:FAITACCOMPLI action, to repurpose various fields of
{{infobox person}}
and derivatives of it, to shoehorn aristocratic titles into the|name=
(or sometimes other inappropriate) parameters, and have just gone and done this to tens of thousands of articles, despite this not being consistent with the templates' own documentation of the meaning of these parameters, or with MOS:BIO regarding such titles (covered in various subsections of MOS:PEOPLETITLES. In short, we have a disputed mess in which the infobox of, say, Margaret Thatcher claims that her name is "The Baroness Thatcher", which is obviously badly incorrect. That title belongs in one of the other parameters,|honorific_suffix=
. To make matters worse, the|honorific_prefix=
parameter (intended for things like "Duke" and "Dame") has been widely misused to insert a form of address that would be used only when writing a letter to such a person or perhaps when introducing them at a formal engagement, but which is not how they are normally referred to in writing by anyone ever. (The most common of these misuses is "The Rt. Hon." or "The Right Honourable".) And even the baroness part should not have "The" on it (that's used when describing the title in a stand-alone manner, not when used directly with the person's name). For the Thatcher case, the obviously solution is:|name=Margaret Hilda Thatcher
|honorific_suffix=Baroness Thatcher<br />{{Post-nominals|country=GBR|size=100%|LG|OM|DStJ|PC|FRS|HonFRSC}}
, and this is what agrees with the lead of the article. Another potential solution is one or more additional parameters, e.g. for gentry/peerage titles, and possibly for formal address, though the latter is arguably not encyclopedic information (much less infobox-level core information), and is better covered at the article on the general class of title (i.e., it is "how to address peers of particular ranks" and "how to address knights/dames" and "how to address Scottish lairs and clan chiefs", and "how to address judges", and "how to address members of parliament", and etc., etc., etc. information, and not particular to someone's bio. A simpler solution is to just remove the address string, and put the aristrocratic titles in the extant|honorific_suffix=
parameter; there's something to be said for such simplicity versus making a complex template even more complex without there being a clear reader-facing benefit.Anyway, there have been several abortive discussions about this at various places, but nothing has resulted in action, and this might have to be resolved with an RfC, perhaps at WP:VPPOL since it has implications for a large number of articles. I've had other projects going on which absorb most of my time, and this is why I've not bothered RfCing this already. It definitely does need to get resolved one way or another.
PS, on the matter of link-piping with regard to such a person in other articles: It would depend on the context. If it's clear in the sentence that "the Earl of Rosebery" is in reference to a specific person known by that title at the time, then the piped link is not necessarily problematic, but only if the actual name of this person has been given previously in the same article. Far too often I run across piped links of this sort in a non sequitur manner, seemingly put there by British editors who are personally familiar with who the subject of the link is, without considering that even many other British readers would not be and that virtually no one outside the UK will be. So, at least at first occurrence, using
[[Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery]],
will be more appropriate. It might simply be[[Archibald Primrose, 5th Earl of Rosebery|Earl of Rosebery]],
in a later occurrence, since depending on the context we might take advantage of the new standard (since about a year ago) of linking once per major section yet also consider who the person is/was already adequately explained in a previous section. There's a bit of a tension between those two ideas. In various cases, such a title should just be left off, when it's not contextually pertinent and/or doesn't match typical RS usage; e.g. Christopher Guest is not normally referred to as [5th] Baron Haden-Guest except in reference to his brief stint as a parliamentarian, or in other peerage-pertinent contexts, but not as a actor-director-writer (where even the "Haden-" is almost universally dropped, at his own preference). On the other hand, any time the title is being referred to as the title itself, or in the plural, it should link to the article/section on the title not the present title-holder. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)- It’s even worse than User:SMcCandlish’s explanation of this issue. See for example the infobox for Selwyn Lloyd, where the reader is informed that Lloyd’s successor as foreign secretary was one “The Earl of Home”; his time as leader of the house was under the PM Alec Douglas-Home. The casual reader is left unaware that these are one and the same person, whose status had changed between positions. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see this as a problem. Home was known by different names at different points in his life. The infobox should reflect that. Atchom (talk) 00:12, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- You're right, this needs to be clarified but doing so would have a big impact. I don't have the knowledge or time to open an RfC myself. Is there anyone who is willing to do so? Ecrm87 (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- It’s even worse than User:SMcCandlish’s explanation of this issue. See for example the infobox for Selwyn Lloyd, where the reader is informed that Lloyd’s successor as foreign secretary was one “The Earl of Home”; his time as leader of the house was under the PM Alec Douglas-Home. The casual reader is left unaware that these are one and the same person, whose status had changed between positions. Cambial — foliar❧ 13:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know the answer. But concerning Selwyn Lloyd & all other Speakers of the GB/UK House of Commons? I'm curious as to why the prime minister is included in their infoboxes. The speaker doesn't serve under the prime minister. Same thing with the leader of the Opposition, who also doesn't serve under the prime minister. But, I guess that's another topic. GoodDay (talk) 14:53, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Revisiting the issue of anachronistic demonyms being applied to historical figures
When we can write "[Name] was an [actually historically correct demonym] [occupation/role], from [historical place], now in [modern place]", or even "[Name] was an [occupation/role] of [historical place], now in [modern place]" without a demonym at all – or using any equivalent wording like "today in [modern place]" or "in modern-day [modern place]" – then we not only have no good reason to write a grossly misleading "[Name] was a [history-distorting and reader-confusing anachronistic demonym] [occupation/roles], from [historical place]", there are also many good reasons to not do it. I think that this needs to be covered more explicitly in this guideline, probably using concrete examples along the lines of the generics I just wrote.
Multiple discussions, with unclear resolutions, have archived away here and at other pages. This classic example of the anachronism dispute is describing Christopher Columbus as "Italian" and even his voyages as an "Italian" endeavor, a viewpoint pushed especially by Italian-American interests as a matter of ethno-nationalistic pride. The problem is that Italy as anything like a nation-state did not exist in his period, and the Italian penninsula and mainland consisted of a number of independent states (typically with their own Italic languages, many of which still exist as minority languages; the one we today call Italian is actually Florentine). Columbus was Genoan, not "Italian", and his voyages were a Spanish project (and Spain actually was at least de facto unified into a single nation by that point, unlike Italy). But there are many such disputes ("Chinese" is another fairly frequent one, and can be problematic for multiple reasons, including completely different ethno-linguistic groups in the region, and often multiple competing kingdoms/empires and other polities within the bounds of what today is mainland China).
Usage of modern-day national labeling of historical figures and group is (at least in the cases about which I've seen recurrent dispute) rarely based on much actual evidence rather than opinionated assertions and personal (often diasporic) preferences. Even much of the evidence presented tends to be OR distortion. E.g., it is easy to find RS using somewhere in them the term "Italian" in reference to someone like Columbus or Dante, but only as a shorthand after the author has explained where they were really from, Genoa and Florence respectively, and that these were independent states; or using the term with a particular cultural-geographic regional sense particular to the material in question and already laid out in detail in that work. Either of those is very distinct from the modern nation-state sense that WP would imply to almost all readers by saying "Columbus was Italian". But proponents of this wrongheaded anachronistic labeling in WP articles ignore the sources' highly contextual usage (when it can be found at all) and claim they can simply apply "Italian" to any such figure "because RS do it", despite our lead sections having no such clarifing prior contextual material or special in-context definition that has been explained. Plus, various sources about such figures are not actually reliable historical, ethnographical, or other works, but are lionzing biographies written too often by Italian (or Chinese, or whatever) Americans with a promotional slant (often, in the Columbus case, also promotional of Catholicism and of socio-political conservatism, and revisionism in support of that conservatism, especially against criticism of Columbus, the Catholic Church, and Imperial Spain as colonialist and violently exploitative).
Here's a point of evidence about historical English usage with regard to "Italians" in particular that is worth consideration:
- Lutkin, Jessica (2016). "Settled or fleeting? London's medieval immigrant community revisited". In Allen, Martin; Davies, Matthew (eds.). Medieval Merchants and Money: Essays in Honour of James L. Bolton. University of London Press.. Full-text access to this is available (unusually, for JSTOR) since it's an open-access work.
In summary, the immigrant merchant and labourer populations in England from the late medieval to early modern periods were recorded distinctly as Venetian, Florentine, Genoan, Lucchese [Tuscan], Lombard, Milanese, etc. While "Italian" was sometimes used in this period (perhaps when it was known that the person was from somewhere in that region without more specifics being available), it clearly was not the default way to refer to such people in English, even historically. Rather, it has only become one in the modern era (and especially among Americans) after the Italian unification in 1871. It's interesting that "German" (sometimes "Teutonic") was more used in these English records (with more specific terms being rare, though "Saxon" appeared a few times), surely owing to the fact that the Holy Roman Empire was already using this term (and Deutsche and cognates in the German langauges) by this era. Similarly to the German case, "French" was usually used instead of more specific terms like "Picard" or "Gascon", owing to it being a largely unified nation by then. But the Netherlands were not, and terms like "Fleming", "Zeelander", "Hollander", and "Gelderlander" appeared frequently along with a more generic "Dutch" (MidEng "Doche"); the Netherlands didn't exist as a unified country until the Batavian republic in 1975; while the United Provinces of the Netherlands dates back to 1579, and is sometimes mislabled "the Dutch Republic", it was actually a conferation of independent states, though it at least provided a then-extant rationale to begin lumping them all together as "Dutch".
There's a lot of other material like this available about demonyms and their historical usage in English, though much of it is paywalled and needs a The Wikipedia Library account or other institutional access means to get at the full text.
Anyway, the upshot of this is that we have no reason to use misleading anachronistic labels like calling Columbus "Italian" when we can say accurately that he was Genoan, from a city in present-day Liguria, Italy. As I pointed out before, we would not refer to King Bridei V of the Picts (r. 761–763) as a "Scottish" ruler, but as Pictish and based in Fortriu, in present-day central to north Scotland. (The unification of what today is Scotland, merging Pictland with Gaelic Alba, didn't happen until 843; and inclusive of Strathclyde/Alt Clut, not until around the beginning of the 12th century). WP is mostly pretty good about this sort of thing, but there is a bad habit among certain clusters of editors of engaging in particular forms of anachronistic ethno-national labeling. "Italian" and "Chinese" are the most common I've run into, though I've also seen it done with "Spanish" before the unification of Spain, and with "Russian" as inclusive of places that were not at the time part of the CIS, or the USSR, or Imperial Russia. There are probably many other cases I've missed, in subject areas I don't wander into as often. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 05:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Hon Prince Vincent Venman Bulus
biography Binfajnr1 (talk) 11:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
What do you want done? Can you be more specific & include some citations if you think Bulus is notable? Peaceray (talk) 13:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)