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Revision as of 00:44, 9 November 2008

For a Table-of-Contents only list of candidates, see Wikipedia:Featured articles/Candidate list

Dispatch feedback

Feedback needed please on Wikipedia:FCDW/October 13, 2008 before it publishes; sure could use more help over at WP:FCDW, would rather not be writing too many of these myself. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:10, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would you like to include anything from WP:Update? The 25 style guidelines that are also General style guidelines were covered. I didn't get to WP:NAME or WP:NFCC, because I've been asking around to get someone to cover the 7 pages in Category:Wikipedia content policy without any bites so far. I'll go do September changes for WP:NAME and WP:NFCC. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 16:10, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't figured out what that page is and what became of Tony's Monthly updates: I haven't seen September updates, not sure why that page says October, and not sure how I'm supposed to craft a Dispatch out of that. If you're picking up the Dispatches, weighing in at WT:FCDW would help, and we can try to sort it there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will do. Have now finished all the September changes to the 7 content policy pages as well. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 18:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No feedback: is it that bad? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or that good? Sandy, perhaps everyone's WP budget is fully booked in reviewing and managing existing affairs. I think it's just too much that this sub-community prepare a high-quality article weekly (I'd opt for monthly, but fortnightly would be a start). And we will before too long run out of easy pickings. Tony (talk) 03:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Tony. Help me out here, guys, I'm not sure how to respond to Sandy. Do you guys read "is it that bad" as a statement that we should be dubious anytime someone posts a list like WP:Update and no one responds? (In which case, does someone want to read some of the page diffs from Sept 1 to Sept 30 and decide whether you like my summary? I understand what Sandy is saying about not knowing how to use my summary for a newsletter, because it's not short and punchy; I erred on the side of putting in too much, which I think is the right way to go, especially since I'm also doing the diffs for content policy pages ... someone will roast me if I leave something out they considered important.) Or do you guys read "is it that bad" to suggest Sandy is dubious about my ability to create an accurate summary? In which case I should probably ask over at WT:MOS whether anyone else has similar doubts. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive)

The "is it that bad" is a reference to my prose and the first Dispatch I've written myself; it wasn't related to the Monthly updates at all, Dan. ??? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:00, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ouch! I didn't catch the indentation; I thought you were talking about my work. Sorry! - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 15:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FA is different

I want to be Shockingly Honest.
Much earlier I started a thread with the assertion that FA is broken, is overwhelmed.
Don't sizzle your brain reading all the responses. Count the lines. Count the proposals. The voluminous response is evidence that others agreed, at some level, and in some way (albeit perhaps in different ways)..
But it all went nowhere. Sandy was adamant: "There is No Problem Except That No One Will Oppose".
Let me speak frankly: I was speaking in Secret Code when I said that FAC is overwhelmed by Too Many Noms. What I really meant was this: a nontrivial minority of FAs that are passed do Not make the Internet Not Suck—they can't, because They Suck.
Stop! Halt! Stop the drama! Everyone will think I'm blaming Sandy. I am not. Some FAs Suck because Something Somewhere is structurally wrong with FAC.
But Sandy says No, we need more Opposes.
Let's run with that logic, shall we?
In too many cases, No One Will Oppose because they can't.
WP:WIAFA permits articles that are grammatically sound and written with at least some modicum of skill to Pass. No one will !vote on a certain class of articles because because they know the article sucks, but WIAFA can't prove it. So my main point is this: FA is different.

One the problem is that Wikipedia's general concept of Notability was hammered out at XfD, or at least with reference to the XfD process. It is patently true that the standard of Notability for surviving XfD should be different than the one for surviving FAC. I think Notability is the elephant in the room. e've been talking about length, and scope, and so on. In our hearts, we mean Notability.

I propose a more qualitative approach to FACs. We should be able to Oppose on a stricter definition of Notability (and length, and scope, and perhaps other qualities) than is spelled out in non-related WIkipedia policy. The potential for abuse (e.g., I don't like your article because it disagrees with my nationalist views on Lower Elbonia) by that Ominiscient One, the FA Director (vesions 1 and 2).
talk amongst your selves. I may not have free time for a couple days (not sure).
Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 14:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmmn. One can only hope that by not commenting on non-notable FACs they quietly die a death by having neither supports nor opposes. DrKiernan (talk) 14:27, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with that is that it leaves Sandy or Raul in the hot seat, getting complaints on their talk page about closing the FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh well, another good idea bites the dust. DrKiernan (talk) 14:37, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure they're both able to cope with that kind of thing. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 14:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) We need Fuzziness in WIAFA. Not Chaos or Anarchy; just Fuzzines. It won't result in the Wild Wild West, at least not after a transitional period. A culture will settle around a set of flexible principles. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 15:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can you state how the fuzziness might be applied? One of the issues that frustrates newer users is they want to know *exactly* why their article doesn't qualify as FAC. Actionable opposes are required, but FAC isn't the place for a comprehensive peer review. There's a lot that goes into experience at FAC that new nominators just don't have. What kind of fuzziness were you thinking about? --Moni3 (talk) 15:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The ability to say (in a polite way), "Your article about X is not FA material. Let me tell you why". And then present sound reasoning that goes beyond WIAFA. I would love it if WIAFA could have its own crystal-clear guidelines for "sparkling prose" and notability of the subject (and notability of the references! I repeat, "!"), but it just can't work. We need an excape clause or two for "My gut says No, but WIAFA won't let me Oppose." Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 15:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't thik anyone would doubt, by your definition, that Paul Gondjout is FAC-notable. He served as President of the National Assembly of Gabon during a very eventful time in its history. However (other than the use of machiene translators, which I find quite ridiculous) the main point is that it's too short. Honestly, if I were to scrape two sentences more out of him I wold be amazingly lucky. Why? all mentions of him are in passing or his relationship to Leon M'ba. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just out of curiosity, where does the concept "actionable" come from, as in "actionable opposes are required"? It sounds so legalistic and not very fuzzy. —Mattisse (Talk) 22:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This would be the same in education as calling a comment from a teacher "specific criticism". Instead of "Prose needs work", there are comments that point out particular places where the prose needs work, what needs to be done - they are actionable because the nominator can go take action on them to fix them. An unactionable oppose is so vague it leaves the nominator without any recourse to overcome the objection. --Moni3 (talk) 22:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I asked where the concept originated; that is, where is it defined in the FA criteria on Wikipedia, not what does it mean. Sorry if my question was not clear. I am familiar with its legal meaning. You must be a school teacher! —Mattisse (Talk) 23:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is in the first version of the FAC instructions, written by Raul, similar wording is still in the FAC instructions, and if you Google on it, you get too many hits to track down all of them, but an early sample discussion is in archive 3. Another huge discussion occurred during the Schiavo nomination, at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive11. Anyway, the concept is whether the Oppose is based on WP:WIAFA and gives enough info about the deficiency that the nominator can theoretically fix the issue. For example, "article is too short", "article is too long", "article is POV", "article needs a copyedit" are not actionable statements. Article is missing info about X topic covered in Y source, or the Z section of the article is rambling and could be better summarized to the sub-article, or the failure to adequately cover the info in sources A, B, C, and D result in POV, and samples of the prose problems to back up copyedit needs are actionable Opposes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Was. Not anymore. Though the words "actionable oppose" aren't used, the same concept is described at the top of the FAC page under "Supporting and Opposing". --Moni3 (talk) 00:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this another thread about length, in disguise? –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 22:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is another endless FAC "discussion" in disguise. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Question for Ling.Nut: You say some FACs have passed even though they're not up to snuff? Do you have any specific examples? It seems to me that any comments or opposes that are unactionable (e.g. This article is horribly written even though I don't have any specific examples in the text) border on being personal opinion about the article's composition. Anything specific, pertaining to the FA criteria, that is fixable is addressed during the FAC process, with perhaps the exception of an article not being reviewed by enough editors. As for notablility, that's a whole different ballgame. Intothewoods29 (talk) 22:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like to draw attention to specific articles, but I can think of several times where Ling.Nut has indicated he was just about to Oppose an article I had just promoted, and in each case, the FAC had been running for several weeks, had no Opposes or anything unresolved, and had gained significant Support, which is why I told him that the solution to that issue is to enter more Opposes. If reviewers are waiting two weeks to get around to looking at FACs that are at the bottom of the page, I'm again concerned they some may have been waiting for me to add FACs to the Urgents template before looking at them, which is why I have stopped updating that template. And, if you're getting ready to review an article, but need a few hours to a day, then please, put a note on the FAC to that effect, and I will weigh that along with all of the other info already on the FAC page. I don't read minds or invisible words written between the lines :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to ask the same thing - FAR is a place if you feel stronlgy enough and are able to explain why. If a subject is non-notable, then AfD is the way to go. Either it is notable or not. I think another problem is the rigour of the process scares people off meatier (more 'core') subjects, as the amount of work invovolved becomes huge. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I would add that the rigour of through inline referencing with Reliable Sources does a very good job at weeding out OR and non-encyclopedic mateial. So...I'd really like some examples of which articles "suck" and why. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Reliable Sources is a good measure. Unfortunately, it is hardly worth the hostility involved from entrenched folks in nominating an article for FAR. Takes a strong stomach. Not something that is worth undertaking very often, if at all. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait till they're on a wikibreak or in a lower phase of activity...YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 01:25, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) I can't name specific articles; the drama would be unbearable. A bit of research would reveal cases in which one or more (probably several) of the following are true:

none of the more stringent FAC reviewers showed up—or more likely, none of the regular reviewers of any kind (stringent or lenient) showed up
there are three or four votes (all Supports) by.. who.. who are those names? Oh wait, their names are on the membership list of the relevant Wikiproject...
all or almost all of the references are websites. Ealdgyth prudently backs away, saying "I'll leave it up to reviewers..."
the article is either short, OR is loaded with tons of trivial details, probably garnered from websites OR primary sources.

Oh, to Casliber: I specifically stated that FA should have different standards for Notability than AfD! many articles that deserve to exist do not deserve to be FA.
That's all. I'm taking a two-day wikibreak because my wife wants to spend Quality Time together. Quality Time away from Wikipedia??? Imagine that! . Cheers. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 01:33, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, well, none of these reasons gell with the reason cited above of "knowing" an article is not FA-worthy but not knowing why. All these listed above are very actionable opposes. WRT notability, that would be extremely difficult to nut out, heck, notability is still a battleground after years of banter. This would open up a can of worms and cires of instruction creep. I don't agree with you on this one, I think application of policies as is WRT RS and vigrous inline referencing is fine, and would have addressed the problems listed above if someone had pulled them up on these candidacies. I certainly think ruminating on all this stuff is owrthwhile from time to time though, and will try to keep a closer eye at FAC, which I haven't of late. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:50, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When an article is notable but doesn't have enough Reliable sources to meter a full article, it's pretty obvious. I would need several examples of articles passing via unreliable sources/overload of primary sources, as I don't think it's a common occurrence. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 01:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I want to know where reliable sources can be found in the spoo article?--Stone (talk) 11:20, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to have Ling.Nut name a few examples, say three, of articles that he feels were promoted but should not have been promoted. I have a few general ideas, but I'd appreciate something more concrete if this discussion is going to happen properly. Imzadi1979 (talk) 14:55, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsible headers

Quick question, yes or no answer will do: are collapsible headers OK for use on individual FAC pages for resolved issues? I've seen them used in the past, but I don't want to use one without asking, in case it causes problems with transclusions and the like. Cheers, Steve ^{T • C} 22:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We try to avoid them, because the pages that transclude all the individual FAC pages (like this one) can take forever to load, or reach transclusion limits. Just be very selective—capping your comments just to mark them resolved is not really done anymore, but capping very long resolved comments on a very long FAC page would be a good call. Maralia (talk) 22:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about the length of the list I left at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/JFK (film)? One they've been resolved, do you think that would that justify the use? I'm just aware of how much room it's taking on the page, and don't want to put anyone else off commenting. Steve ^{T • C} 22:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I would consider that an appropriate situation for capping (for me, your comments there scrolled over five screens). Maralia (talk) 03:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sourcing from different languages

Something is very unsettling about the recurrence of 1964 Gabon coup d'etat on the FAC list. The fact that a computer translator is used to complete translating French sources where the nominator's own language skills are deficient are very worrying. I opposed Paul Gondjout from the same editor for the same reason. Less than a week later, the same editor nominates another French language-Wiki FA using Google translator again.

My main issue is that it is not defensible, not only by most editors but by its nominator and chief contributor. Articles with the majority of sources in another language, such as Same-sex marriage in Spain, and the various articles about foreign subjects have been nominated by editors with fluency in the languages used. This is not the case with this one. How can an editor defend his article when he is unable to understand the majority of its sources without computer-generated assistance? Is the FA system not only relying on the editor's judgment about what to use from these sources, but also the reliability of Google translator? Doesn't Wikipedia have enough trouble justifying the quality of the majority of its articles?

Is this merely my personal standards bordering on elitism, or a sincere problem with the reliability of sources? Is there a practical outcome to this discussion? Should we require nominators to be fluent in the language they use for their sources? Does it have implications like forbidding second language English editors from writing FAs in English? --Moni3 (talk) 00:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree. Just looking at the one translation issue that has already come up at the FAC... if this is the standard of translation, it's appalling. Starting with the first phrase, in which the translator can't recognize a reflexive verb and confuses democracy with democrat. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Translators should never be relied on. They can be used to assist but relying on them simply can't work. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 00:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read the first line. It received professional help, and yet (tiny) mistakes are still made. If we require nominators to be fluent in languages that they translate to, that would severely downplay articles in countries that speak a language other than English. Take for example my to previpous FAs. One was a stub before I came around to it, and the other didn't exist. They relied partially on translated sources, though not as much as the current article. Nonetheless, even though FAs are featured doesn't mean they are perfect. The can never be, and someone can always fix a bit more. This is the underlying issue here.

(ec, reply to HDYTTO) I didn't rely on the translators, I used them to assist me, as well as Fluent French speakers. ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would certainly require a translator to be fluent in both the target and source languages. Honestly, you seem to have problems with both. The FAC discussion to date is sufficient to show this. These are not "tiny" mistakes. They are significant errors in articles that are aiming to be examples of Wikipedia's very best work. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 01:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was not my intention to make this about a single editor, but predicting that EotW has done this more than once, there is nothing preventing it being done again, from other editors in other languages. I am deeply uncomfortable with this becoming a trend. --Moni3 (talk) 01:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would very much agree that fluency in both languages is required. I think a point is being missed by the editor defending machine translations. There is no desire to increase articles on countries that speak a language other than English at the expense of accuracy. A machine translation is not a reliable source. It is hard to know the implications of a "tiny mistake" in a language you cannot read. It is difficult enough to write accurately in a primary language. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely right. I'm sorry to say that this new trend just seems to me to be another way for the kiddies to notch up an FA or two for free. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eotw, I think you're missing the point. Of course you're correct: there is no "perfect" article. However, to be our best work it must be verifiable. If we can't verify the article, then the article may be incorrect. If it were incorrect, then we are advertising to the world that we have vetted an article as "our best work" without thoroughly checking the sources. I am further concerned with the nominations--the article just failed MILHIST's A-class, why nominate now? Why not go through MILHIST again? I am worried; you've also been sending articles that are directly cut & paste from the Library of Congress (pd) through DYK...why the rush? Lazulilasher (talk) 01:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Children have no sense of what this project is about. They see DYK/FAC/GAN as an opportunity to collect brownie points, a step towards becoming an administrator on a project they have no understanding of. The children are slowly but surely destroying the project. One day soon there may be only the children left. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's been disillusioning me. Just recently the cut & paste thing seems to be everywhere I look, now it's the google translate thing. Maybe I was naive before, but it seems everywhere now. We're not wikisource. Lazulilasher (talk) 01:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And, yesterday, I saw an article that was basically NOAA weather reports with the sentences broken up and put back together again in a new order. I mean, the same phrases--but, in a different order. Lazulilasher (talk) 01:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the above editors. We cannot translate articles OR sources with aids such as Google Translators, which are demonstrably unreliable. Just as we would not use unreliable sources, we should not use unreliable translators, which can turn reliable sources into unreliable sources by giving false information. Only those who are fluent in other languages should be bringing articles sourced to foreign-language publications to FAC. With a shortage of foreign-language speakers, we have to rely exclusively on those people to check the sources at FAC (not the case with English sources). Should we add something about this to the FA criteria? Awadewit (talk) 14:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It might be argued that the FA criteria already cover this. My thought is that an auto-translation automatically fails to meet the 1(a) requirement that the prose be "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard" and that an auto-translation of sources fails to meet the 1(c) requirement that "claims be verifiable against reliable sources". I take 1(c) to mean that any reader fluent in English should be able to verify the accuracy of the article. If the accuracy of translated material cannot be verified by the general reader, our mostly English-only audience, it fails the test. Finetooth (talk) 18:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if it meets WP:V and WP:RS for any article. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@Finetooth: While English-language citations are always preferred, foreign-language references are fine if they are from reputable sources. A Google translator does not meet this standard, as mistakes apparently occur frequently. I fail to see how that is considered reliable. Giants2008 (17-14) 21:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These are interesting points raised here. Two articles I'm building towards an eventual FAC both use a couple of articles from languages other than English. One of them is Spanish, which I don't speak (and for which I used an online translation tool), and three are French, with which I'm pretty damn good. However, no English mongolot can verify these easily, even though I'm certain the French ones are correct, and I checked the Spanish one at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. But to answer the original question: no, it wouldn't be a good idea, if only because it wouldn't work. While it may seem like a good idea to write something into the instructions that articles or sources translated from another language should be predominately included by someone fluent in that language, less scrupulous editors would soon cotton on and might just lie about their levels of multilingualism, relying their continued access to (some pretty decent) translation tools and a good dictionary to see them through any challenge. Our best bet in cases where we suspect this has happened is simply to get a second opinion from an uninvolved speaker of the language to check that the text matches the citation, in the same way we would get someone with access to university tools or whatnot to check an offline journal citation. Steve ^{T • C} 20:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would expect a nominator or an involved editor to be competent in the target language at the very least. From a personal stand point if a user has to use Google translator then they are NOT competent in the language. As an English/Spanish speaker my abilities somewhat transfer to Portuguese and Italian as I have also studied these languages at a rudimentary level. However, my advice is that if you have never studied the language then you should either find an editor who understands the source or leave the reference alone. Google translator is entirely unreliable and I can confirm that (naturally) mistakes are frequently made in every sentence. Translation tools do not provide fluency nor complete understanding — machos, ¡espero que me entiendas! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 02:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I agree, which is why for the Spanish example I gave I got a second opinion, but my point is that demanding fluency would be unenforceable, so we might as well not bother. In one recent example, we were fortunate that the editor's paraphrasing skills were lacking enough that it was easily spotted. In other cases, we'll just have to soldier on as we always have until someone thinks of something better. Steve ^{T • C} 07:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a wide gap between relying on Google translator and fluent in two languages. Few expert translators are fluent in two languages, and many translate only from other languages into their native language. Don't raise the bar any higher than necessary. Re how to evaluate these translated articles, how about asking for input from Wikipedians who use the relevant babel tags? --Una Smith (talk) 05:53, 25 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a question of degree. I can't speak Spanish fluently, but have used (for example I think in Las Meninas), the Prado full catalogue, which has shortish very concise & fact-packed entries full of useful dates & details, & I think there is no problem with that. Using a Spanish prose article would probably be unwise for me though, except again for straightforward dates or facts. Johnbod (talk) 16:17, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One citation template to rule them all

One citation template to find them,
One citation template to bring them all,
And in the darkness bind them [evil inconstancies].

Yeah so there's a discussion about a new template I wrote going on at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style and apparently you folks would have some interest in that. The scope is to merge most of the commonly used templates into one to procude uniform reference formatting. Headbomb {ταλκ – WP Physics: PotW} 04:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FAC size

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roman Catholic Church is at 434 KB at 3 weeks, the largest FAC I'm aware of recently. (For comparison, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Samuel Johnson hit 256KB after 7 weeks.) Reviewers have been angered by past restarts, because they have to retype their Opposes, but this page will become unviewable on dialup soon. I installed page breaks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RCC's FAC already crashed my laptop... –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 01:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great googly moogly... I can undestand time and time again getting annoyed at restating supports and such, but at some point it's kinda ridiculous... even with breaks it's near unreadable. This is why I stick with my pop culture and video games... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 01:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, working up big Featured Articles I definitely need a break between, it is exhausting. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on dialup, and it's still viewable for me, but I think it needs a restart anyway. On my monitor, the discussion on Roman Catholic Church is nearly as long as the discussions on all other FACs combined. When one review becomes this long, it always seems to become a drain on the process as a whole. The editors that come flock to the long review, and the other articles on the page don't seem to be as active as they usually would be. Luckily, the other articles have gotten some decent activity this time, but the size of the page will turn off reviewers if it gets much larger. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering about it yesterday too. I think it be best if the comments be moved to the article talk page for the nominator to work on the opposes. With the comments approaching half a megabyte, I do not see a possibility of promotion. =Nichalp «Talk»= 06:49, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My biggest fear about a restart in this case is that it will only cause the FAC to drag on and on, and, like the others mentioned, cause a drag on the other nominees. Three weeks is long enough, in my opinion, for the FAC to be open. Many of the current opposes at the RCC FAC have been debated in previous FACs for the article with no consensus reached. Because of that, I don't think a restart would be helpful. In my opinion, when they get this long (especially when the nominators are regularly posting 2k responses to everything), we just need to make a yes-or-no decision and close them. If consensus can't be measured, archive and let the nominators try again later. Karanacs (talk) 15:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I didn't know all this was going on about RCC. I just did my job of creating a page and putting it up for FAC. I hope I am not going to be penalized because it happens to attract a lot of attention. I have worked very hard to answer objectors comments which has resulted in a lot of new information being added that they wanted to see. Several of them have not struck opposing comments even though they have been answered at length. Several opposing comments were unactionable and required me to actually post what the top scholars were saying about a subject because the objectors just could not believe it was true. I disagree with Karanacs evaluation of "Many of the current opposes at the RCC FAC have been debated in previous FACs for the article with no consensus reached." which is not true. No opposer comment in this FAC has been debated in previous FAC with no consensus reached. That kind of comment needs a diff. please. I have placed a note on Sandy's talk page to let her know that I do not have a problem with a restart. Especially since so many opposer comments have been addressed and remain unstruck.NancyHeise ^talk 14:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't agree with your last point, Nancy. Many of the issues raised have come up time and again, sometimes with different examples cited, but the same issue. Whether no concensus has been reached on them is a matter of judgement - certainly no unanimous agreement has been reached, and many opposers have not been satisfied. Even on the matter of the phrasing re the name there are strongly held and mutually-exclusive positions, as we know. Johnbod (talk) 20:58, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nancy, I assure you that what's happening is not exclusive to RCC. Samuel Johnson clogged up FAC in a similar fashion last month, and I see a similar pattern forming with the Romeo and Juliet FAC. This always happens with general-interest candidates, and it's a shame because these are the articles that would represent Wikipedia's best work in a perfect world. But people will always have differing views on important topics, especially those with a large scope like RCC. This is why I believe that FAC is tilted in favor of narrow topics. As a way to reduce the page loading time for us who are on dial-up, perhaps you and the others at the RCC review could shorten your comments. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:14, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to keep things straight wrt Samuel Johnson, the FAC reached 256KB after seven weeks (RCC is over 600KB at three weeks, but I've been constantly moving text to talk to keep the long replies from jamming FAC), I don't believe Johnson ever had more than three opposes at any one time (it had six or seven at various times, but they were all eventually struck except one, with editors consistently moving in the direction of satisfying opposes via talk page discussion without jamming up the FAC), and one reason it was carried so long on FAC is because I was a co-nom and couldn't close it. Different situation: it closed with 32 Supports and 1 Oppose. Perhaps a thought that might help resolve some of the issues ... there seems to be ongoing confusion about the role of "voting" (both at FAC, and in the lengthy discussions at Talk:Roman Catholic Church attempting to resolve the naming and other conflicts). Arguments like "8 editors wanted x and only 3 wanted y" will not resolve issues so that the article could go on the main page without other editors raising the same issues that have surfaced in the previous RCC FACs, which usually come down to how the article deals with RCC history. At this point, I'm inclined towards the idea expressed by Karanacs that a restart won't help: there doesn't yet seem to be an understanding of how to work towards broad consensus. Some editors have refused to return to review this article because previous restarts caused them to do the same review many times. As Raul said last time (emphasis mine): "What I'd like to see from all the remaining objectors is a list of specific problems with the article in its current form. I'd like the nominators to take some time and address the remaining issues prior to renominating this. I do want to see this featured, but it's not there yet. Raul654 (talk) 16:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)" Taking a vote and declaring that most of the editors frequenting the talk page have decided not to make changes is not necessarily the same as addressing issues and reaching the broad consensus necessary for featured status. The goal is a featured article that would not be clobbered and immediately sent back to WP:FAR if it were to appear on the main page. I'd also like to see this article featured, and it is frustratingly close, but consensus will not be reached unless reviewer concerns are engaged rather than argued. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to restate Raul's words at the end of the last FAC, that Sandy just quoted, with some different words emphasised. "What I'd like to see from all the remaining objectors is a list of specific problems with the article in its current form. I'd like the nominators to take some time and address the remaining issues prior to renominating this." In other words this is the point we have been making time and time again. Unless people come up with specific points, and not vague, "this is POV" style opposes, nothing can be done to address real or imagined issues. In fact very few of trhe FAC opposers came back with specific points when asked to do so immediately after this, so it is unfair to criticise article editors for not dealing with opposes, which were never specified as Raul asked. In fact it could be said that certain people only seem interested in the article when it appears at FAC. And now the vague but persistent oppose is raising its head again. What happens when some opposers are not interested in a broad consensus on anything but their own viewpoint, and refuse to be pinned down to specifics? I would call this a blocking oppose. If the text of any other encyclopedia were put up for some people here, it would receive just as many accusations of POV, since no article is the diatribe of negativity about the Catholic Church that some people want. The fact is that such opposes need to be dealt with rigorously so ensure that they are not themselves simply "I don't like it" statements, which many seem to be. Xandar 22:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A great number of things have been changed since the last FAC and during this one, but, as the problems over 3-4 words over the name show, there are some issues where people just won't agree. The inability to include everything, or much detail on anything, is also a severe problem, though it would be difficult to get everything people want covered into a book, never mind a WP article. Johnson is hardly an apt comparison, as the differences there were miniscule in comparison, and mostly about the article's form, not statements in the content. There are also still many who think a neutral RCC article would be Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church. Johnbod (talk) 21:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I also wanted to point out that the comparison to Johnson isn't apt for a number of reasons. What can be noted is that, on Johnson, Ottava consistently worked towards addressing and resolving reviewer opposes, even when that altered his vision for the article. The two-week long distress over the article name can stall the RCC FAC, illustrates that there is still disagreement even among the regular editors of the article, but I suspect that will eventually work itself out so it doesn't concern me yet; perhaps discussion could re-focus on the longer standing issues that continue to come up with respect to the History. Until that happens, I don't see that a restart will lead anywhere different than where things currently stand. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:04, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I meant my comments to be about the general effect of long FACs; this one is obviously longer and more contentious, and a yes-or-no decision will have to be made at some point. One thing I wanted to mention above is that as I type this, there are 28 candidates, the fewest I've ever seen here. So much for FAC being overloaded in terms of total candidates. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True; smallest number in a very long time, but no discernible difference in the number of reviews. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:07, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sandy, would it be a good idea to archive the supports and resolved opposes, with a summarised note left on the FAC page? The size truly is a major disincentive to edit the page. --Dweller (talk) 14:29, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe. There's a record of each oppose on the talk page, and I've encouraged each reviewer to strike and respond there. We archived one in the past (as an experiment rather than the usual restart method), and as I knew would happen, we now see claims that this is the fifth FAC, when in fact, it's the fourth. I'm not sure what we can do about the size other than what Giants2008 has already done with a polite request that nominators shorten their responses or that issues unrelated to WIAFA move to the article talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With the Roman Catholic Church FAC at 500KB and the Major depressive disorder FAC at almost 200KB, the total page has hit 1MB, and I'm having a hard time loading the page. Anyone else? It might help if people would put lengthy commentary on talk pages. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:48, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I thought you generally didn't want discussion on talk pages. Could you explain what commentary should be shunted sideways to talk? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 16:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image review or resolution of concerns needed

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Augie March too. Giggy (talk) 04:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's only been up three days; if we're going to list all of the FACs have no image review, well, it would be most of the page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good morning, all. I can do these in a few hours, but I have to go teach Adventures of Huckleberry Finn first. :) Awadewit (talk) 10:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am doing them now. Awadewit (talk) 13:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to all who pitched in ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Page number citations

I have started getting some e-books from Mobipocket, which offer advantages including fully searchable text, ability to add notes and bookmarks, and can easily take with when traveling or living overseas. (I also have some material from Audible.com) The one downside to these formats is they don't have page numbers in the same sense as printed books. So, if I cite them on Wikipedia, I can't always put page numbers in the references. An example is the book cite I just added to the American Airlines Flight 77 article [1]. The book is not available on Google Books so I can't find page numbers that way. I can provide chapter numbers, and want to know if that would be sufficient? or how you suggest referencing books in these formats, in a way that is okay for FAC? --Aude (talk) 23:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I had a similar issue, in that reviewers wanted page numbers for a plot section but I had only listened to the audiobook... I trust the nominator, but I would agree that chapters at least are necessary. We can't just throw the book (pun intended) at people wanting to check our facts. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 00:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The goal of a page number is to let a reader find the cite easily. If a chapter is the most precise identifier available for an e-book, that doesn't disqualify the source, so I think it's OK. For reader convenience the cite should be replaced with a cite to a paper copy with a page number if it's easy to do so, but that's just a nicety, not a requirement. I have a similar issue with a CD version of an encyclopedia, which allows me only to cite the article name -- that's good enough to get to within a page or two, but whenever I get back to Texas, where the dead tree version is, I replace it with a cite with a page number. Mike Christie (talk) 00:16, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, I recently had a FAC passed (Morotai Mutiny) that used a fairly lengthy online source as a key refererence and for which I couldn't provide page or even section/chapter numbers. No-one complained but if there were issues, my plan was to provide a direct quote in the citation (if I wasn't doing so already in the body of the article) so people had something to search for to verify if they wished. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For an audio book, wouldn't the appropriate reference be the minute? :) Awadewit (talk) 14:12, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Currently, minutes are not required for videotape and DVD citations. Is this an anticipated change? --Moni3 (talk) 15:09, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not, but I've urged it from time to time. It's just common sense. The point of a reference is to enable a reader to find the supporting material. There are established traditions in scholarly work for books and journals. There really aren't for newer media. But an editor should always provide the best and most helpful citation possible.

In a case where there's really any serious question as to whether the source really supports the statement, then, sure, an editor should be required to provide whatever is needed to enable verification. This was important in one matter I was actually involved in, where an editor asserted that his source for something that would have been very interesting if true was microfilm of a college newspaper, and could only provide a range of several years within which he was sure the material had appeared.

Note that for eBooks and online sources, a text search is usually available, so a short unique search phrase is another possibility.

There shouldn't be any point to or need for precise rules, just use good faith in providing citations. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It does make sense and I would do it because it is the "best and most helpful citation possible", as Dpbsmith points out. Awadewit (talk) 19:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When I can get to a bookstore or library that has the book, I can look up the page numbers and add them. For now, it sounds like the chapter number will be okay. In the particular book I'm citing, the chapters are not long. --Aude (talk) 20:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Odd, I had a similar problem very recently. Jappalang helpfully recommended me two books on Luan Da to expand it and take it back to FAC; however, he accessed them by translating them from websites, so I can't include pages. He suggested to simply link to the websites in the citations, but noted that the website on which the snippet from the second book is included isn't reliable. The two websites are [2] and [3]. Does anyone know for certain whether linking the first website as a source would be acceptable? (Jappalang and I are fairly sure that the second isn't acceptable, but I'm not entirely sure on that one either.) Nousernamesleft (talk) 20:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Elcobbola retires

Elcobbola's sudden retirement is a huge blow to the FAC process. Nobody was more meticulous, patient and fair in their judgements about images. He was always the person I, and many other, turned to when an image problem arose, and he will be greatly missed. Thank you, one more time. Brianboulton (talk) 00:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As most FAC participants know, Elcobbola was the kind of editor Wikipedia should bend over backwards to retain. And absolutely a gentleman; my first encounter with him was on a difficult FAC where he showed his character as the gracious, kind and civil person that he is. Unfailingly polite, thorough, knowledgeable, responsive, dedicated, and meticulous. In his honor, I will try to remember the importance of kindness and civility, particularly towards reviewers and more specifically towards image reviewers, who really do a thankless job and get beaten up a lot. I feel priviledged to have been able to work with Elcobbola, and thankful that he left us a legacy of his knowledge: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-08-11/Dispatches and Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-09-22/Dispatches. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm stunned and saddened that he's no longer working here. I don't know how we're going to be able to pick up after him. Just...give ourselves a crash course in images, I guess... --Moni3 (talk) 01:13, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh no! Elcobbola was the kind of mentor every editor longs for: patient, detailed in his explanations, witty, generous, and well-informed. He will be sorely missed. Awadewit (talk) 13:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reason for this? It all seems so sudden and mysterious. --Dweller (talk) 14:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who has watchlisted Elcobbola's talk page for almost a year, it is neither sudden nor mysterious. The concerns were evident for a long time, and he became less and less willing to visit certain FACs. I have periodically put out hints that we lose reviewers because it's thankless work, but if I see rudeness on FACs and if I take a stand, it usually results in my neutrality being questioned. This is an issue that should be addressed by all. Civility and kindness towards volunteers who donate their time to review articles at FAC is an issue that should be addressed by the community here: without reviewers, we don't have high quality FAs. It will be a long time before we see another Elcobbola. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to come in and have a word with uncivil contributors (noms or reviewers). Please page me. As for Elcobbola - a great shame. Perhaps in a few months his enthusiasm might be reinspired by an appropriately worded email. --Dweller (talk) 15:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen the same at GAN. For every ten nominations you do, maybe more, all but one are happy and it's a pleasure to review them. Then one crops up, who is blunt, uncivil and totally unrecognising of the work you do, and it makes you question why you really bother. It's a huge shame to lose Elcobbola particularly for this reason. Peanut4 (talk) 19:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's also a general issue with resentment against the tight requirements of the WP:NFCC. See, for example, the recent argument on the use of 38 non-frees for an article in how heated this can get against those that are trying to uphold the Foundation's requirements. (Mind you, you do get a few NFCC-supporters with attitudes that lend to such problems, such as BetaCommand). --MASEM 19:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Brilliant prose" and controversial articles

As we are all aware, controversial articles have a much different history than non-controversial articles. In particular, the structure of the article and the writing is often a hard-won compromise (e.g. Roman Catholic Church and Millennium '73), however these compromises are not always in the best interest of the reader. Let me give an example. At Millennium '73, many of the topic sentences have been removed from the article under the auspices that they were uncited. For example, the fifth paragraph in the "Media coverage" section used to begin "Relations between journalists and the DLM were strained" (a statement amply backed up by the examples), but this was removed because the sentence had no footnote. My question is this: Is the "brilliant prose" bar the same for these controversial articles as other articles? If the bar remains the same, very few, if any, controversial articles, will ever pass FAC (we all know how rigorous Tony1 is!). However, lowering the bar in this one instance hardly seems equitable. Thoughts on this issue? Awadewit (talk) 17:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen this particular problem, the removal of topic sentences on the grounds that they were uncited on a hot-button controversial article. In that case, after being consistently reverted, I just left the article as it was. But it seems fairly obvious that a topic sentence is much like an article's lead: it doesn't need to be cited, because it merely introduces and summarizes what is about to follow. There should be no good reason for removing such sentences (and in fact, editors should be actively encouraged to use them), frankly for readability's sake as much as for any other reason.

Indeed, too many editors seem to think that the "brilliant prose" criterion is some kind of impossible barrier imposed by people who are more concerned for style than substance. But the point about improving an article's prose is that the article also becomes clearer and more readable as a result.

So my problem with an article such as RCC (well, one of my problems) is that it is a chore to read. This is both because it dispenses with the stylistic strategies by which good writing guides a reader; but also because it zig-zags from point to point, governed by the footnotes rather than any attempt to make the prose flow.

This is a perennial problem with Wikipedia, of course: that the tendency is towards cookie-cutter articles in which the part takes precedence over the whole. But at FAC it is worth trying to resist this tendency, and to offer examples of how to do things otherwise. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jbmurray, is there an example you can put forward? Mine seem to have backfired :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:29, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh. I do think that there are plenty of examples of articles that are both meticulously well-referenced and also well-written. Many of the articles that Awadewit brings to FAC, for instance. I'm also a great admirer of Qp10qp's combination of scholariless and attention to language. Sadly, he hasn't been around much recently.

However, I felt that one of his recent FAC nominations went decidedly downhill in terms of the prose while under the scrutiny of FAC. I see that happening too often, and perhaps this is the real issue here? (Not to mention my own somewhat unhappy experience.) --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FAC didn't get to opine over Peter Wall because the nominator withdrew in the heat of the battle :-) I was hoping for an example of a controversial article that does not have compromised prose: not sure Learned Hand is all that controversial. And prose deterioration at FAC, because too many cooks put their hands in the broth, (I suspect) is different than what Awadewit is raising. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking about articles that, because of their topics, are inherently controversial. Intelligent design would be a good example. I find the prose in that article to be far from "brilliant" as well. I just looked at Islam - on a brief skimming, the prose is hardly "brilliant". It is more like "adequate", IMO. However, without studying the article history, I don't know why this is. Awadewit (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can give many examples of prose being gutted of topic sentences in the name of "verifiability". One blatant case involved a sentence in a BLP saying X had been indicted for A, B, and C, followed by three sections about A, B and C. I'm glad Raul features articles like Just My Imagination (Running Away with Me) occasionally as it helps counter the bias for citationism. Not long ago, an article passed FAC where almost every sentence was lifted from some source and slightly rephrased. The sentences were weaved together fairly well, but the approach treats articles to a collection of facts with some structure. This seems to be where wikiculture is heading, though. Gimmetrow 23:54, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My thoughts are that the same standards ought to apply regardless of the controversial nature of the article's subject, but it's clear that they don't. I share your concern that certain high-profile articles get mauled at FAC, and I am coming to the conclusion that in the not too distant future it may well be impossible for any controversial article to become featured. The increasingly common fetish for insisting on one citation per sentence is not helping to produce "brilliant prose" either. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we have to admit that, for some articles, it is impossible to be seen as neutral in the eyes of a significant majority. Wrad (talk) 18:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Two examples that did it (there are many more): Islam and Evolution. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This just shows the hypocrisy of the system. Just look at the Islam article - aprticularly the History section. Is there ANY mention of the massacres of Mohammed perpetrated on Jews and fellow Arabs, and MENTION of the destruction of neighbouring civilisations, piracy slavery? NOT A WORD! One section is even titled

I think those articles are great, but I still think that both of those lack a significant majority who see them as neutral. We just choose to ignore those that disagree. Wrad (talk) 18:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Wrad. Islam got through in early 2007, and its recent FAR was not well attended. It would not get through FAC today in my view. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to focus on the "brilliant prose" part of the criteria. (Evolution dispensed with the bulk of its controversial editors before coming to FAC. Through various tactics adopted by the editors on that article, there weren't "factions" fighting it out at the last FAC. There was only one dominant faction left at the article when it was nominated for FAC. The last FAC for the article, for example, looks nothing like the RCC.) Awadewit (talk) 18:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Firmly disagree: Tim Vickers didn't "dispense" with editors via any "tactics". He worked with editors on all sides. Perhaps you're thinking of a different article? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to discuss individual people's actions here. Have you read all of the archives for that article? I have. It is pretty clear that creationist editors were encouraged to edit articles on creationism and go to other wikis, for example. This is just one of the tactics that was used. I'm not saying I don't agree with this. However, it was a clear tactic that made it easier to write the article from a scientific rather than creationist perspective. Also, the editors at the page created an FAQ so that they wouldn't have to repeatedly answer the same questions from creationist editors. Again, I don't have a problem with this pragmatically speaking, but to someone from the outside, just editing wiki for the first time, it is off-putting (they are unwilling to engage with me? why?). This specific FAQ was even used in a scholarly talk I heard to demonstrate how Wikipedians "police" discourse and shut down debate. However, rather than debating the debate over the Evolution article, perhaps we should get back to my original question about "brilliant prose". Awadewit (talk) 19:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But your statement above did personalize that FAC with what could be seen as a rather strong opinion about the involved editors. Also, I'm not sure how we can dispense with the core policy of neutrality at FAC. Are you saying Evolution isn't neutral, or didn't reflect brilliant prose, and shouldn't have passed FAC? Or are you saying RCC is neutral and prose is being compromised? A bit confused about how you want to separate neutral writing and brilliant prose, so I offered two examples. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But I did call out people by name - I try not to do that when they are not in the conversation. Anyway, like I said, I'm not here to debate the history of Evolution article, which is long and messy. 1) I didn't say we should dispense with neutrality; 2) I have said nothing regarding Evolution's status (you brought that up); 3) I brought up the example of Millennium '73, whose prose is being compromised (I gave an example); 4) I haven't commented at the latest RCC FAC, but I have noticed that other editors have brought up the issue of prose independent from that of neutrality and POV. Awadewit (talk) 19:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough: but since Tim Vickers was the nominator, the effect can be the same as calling someone out by name. 'Nuff on that, I didn't intend a digression. To jumble things a bit more, what you mention at the Milennium article seems to be related to the issue of citations in the lead, and that may be another front that needs to be addressed independently of FAC. (I was once the subject of a strident personal attack for merely mentioning off-FAC, without taking a stand, that it's OK to cite hard data and statements that surprise the reader in an article lead, but that is separate from topic and summarizing sentences, and that distinction may need to be better sorted in the Lead guideline. There seems to be some confusion or disagreement over citations in the lead, still, after all these years.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are many issues currently at play at the Millennium FAC, but the one I specifically mentioned has nothing to do with the lead. It is entirely internal to the article. (I agree, though, that we really don't have a firm grasp on what needs to be cited in the lead.) Awadewit (talk) 19:42, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can "brilliant prose" be separate from POV? Absolutely. Clearly sometimes they are tied together, but they are not necessarily tied together. Awadewit (talk) 19:30, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The more 'technical' an article is, the less POV. The more 'social' or 'emotional' an article is. the more the chances of POV creep. I do not think they should be tied together. =Nichalp «Talk»= 19:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the two (neutrality and brilliant prose) are related. I think that we are so thirsty for NPOV that we abandon brilliant prose. I also think that our idea of NPOV is an illusion, since in our most controversial articles we always are forced to ignore very significant points of view in order to get the past FAC. If we recognize that it is an illusion, maybe we cna fix the imbalance between neutrality and prose that currently exists. Wrad (talk) 18:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think everyone recognizes that philosophically-speaking, NPOV is an illusion. However, I'm not sure what you means when you say that our most controversial articles are "forced" to ignore very significant views to pass FAC. Could he explain a bit more? Awadewit (talk) 19:16, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Islam on the "picture of Muhammad" issue. Millions of people consider it incredibly offensive to have pictures of Muhammad on the page. Millions of others think it would be lacking without them. Something had to give. Wrad (talk) 20:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I very much doubt whether "brilliant prose" can ever be produced by committee. Can anyone point to an example of an FA which would be generally accepted as being written brilliantly that would get past FAC today? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I wish there was less use by reviewers of "brilliant prose" as a stated requirement for FAC because first, the criteria wording does not unambiguously state it as an absolute requirement and second, by my reading of the FA list (and I've read a great many of them on at least a cursory level), few if any featured articles reach the level of brilliant prose throughout their entire content.

Brilliance is an admirable ideal, but, unfortunately, brilliant prose is often brittle; it is so carefully crafted as to make even a minor change by a subsequent editor break it down to "merely" well-written or engaging. I've seen a number of articles where sections or paragraphs reach the level of brilliant, in my opinion, but an article written entirely in "brilliant prose"? I can't think of one. True brilliance is exceedingly rare.

The bar on controversial articles, as with all featured articles, should be set at the more reasonable "well-written", "engaging" and "of a professional standard" level, as required by the current featured article criteria. Those requirements are still a high and clearly difficult standard to meet. -- Michael Devore (talk) 19:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your sentiment, but I think the problem would still exist for controversial articles, however, because it is difficult to write well when editors are arguing over every sentence. There is just no coherence to the article's "voice". :) Awadewit (talk) 19:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like your original question is actually asking whether we should be pandering to the desire for citations for the bleeding obvious (not a criterion) at the expense of the other criteria. That's a "no" (Did somebody hear something? Probably the wind). Yomangani ^talk 19:25, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Me, snorting and biting my tongue probably. Giano (talk)

Quite. Like the demand in the Polydactyl article to provide a citation that most human beings have five fingers and five toes. That kind of stupidity is what prevents even good prose, never mind brilliant prose. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think Michael Devore's analysis is spot on. Impossible to achieve "brilliant prose" with so many cooks spoiling the broth at FAC. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another factor contributing to the poor overall quality of controversial articles is that the energy of the main contributors is focused almost entirely on endless fights over a few small sections of the text (particularly the lead), rather than working on the article as a whole. If you can bear it, look at the talkpages on Chiropractic or Homeopathy, two articles that have been extensively edited and are densely-cited, but I'd never nominate as FAC. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All too true. Wrad (talk) 20:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've actually read all of the archives of both of those articles. A grueling few days. Tim, at one point I think you said at Homeopathy that people who want to contribute positively to the article should edit the body of the article rather than the lead because many fewer editors notice or care about changes to the main body of the article. A huge proportion of the edit warring and debate takes place over the lead. :) (I think I may have included a quote from you on this point in my Wikimania talk.) Awadewit (talk) 23:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have one example. 2008 attacks on North Indians in Maharashtra failed on FAC. Some of reasons were reviewers failed to understand the hate crimes done and article seemed POVish to them. Article otherwise was well referenced and has good prose. --GPPande talk! 21:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is a problem with reviewers in general. I find that often they do not read the entire article. However, I always appreciate it when reviewers admit they had not read the entire article, which many do. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To quote a section from the posts above:

::I think that we have to admit that, for some articles, it is impossible to be seen as neutral in the eyes of a significant majority. Wrad (talk) 18:38, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Two examples that did it (there are many more): Islam and Evolution. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

This just shows the hypocrisy of the system being run here. Just look at the Islam article - particularly the History section. Is there ANY mention of the massacres of Mohammed perpetrated on Jews and fellow Arabs? Any MENTION of the destruction of neighbouring civilisations, piracy slavery? NOT A WORD! Oppression of women? Not mentioned. Mention of massacres in Spain, Byzantium, Armenia, Greece? No sign. The Crusades were "launched" by Christians. No mention of the Muslim attacks on Byzantium, Georgia and Armenia that provoked the response. One section is even titled with the amazingly "POV" heading Golden Age! Imagine if we had put that title up on a section of the Catholicism article! How the same people who supported Islam would have howled and wailed - and been supported by the same SandyGeorgia who now tells us how wonderful and NPOV Islam is! Yet "Islam" flies through, and Sandy and her followers at FAC strain at gnats over the Catholicism article, wanting us to list every negative action ever commited by a Catholic and cut out anything that might hint Catholics ever did anything good. A simplThat one e comparison shows the hypocrisy of what goes on here under the present regime. Xandar 23:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Brilliant prose and the French

Partly for a bit of levity and partly because I mused over it recently, here's a (possibly very bad) translation of the 1a criterion from the French Wiki, which might provide some insight into our use of "brilliant":

Bien écrit signifie que le niveau de langue est correct, voire recherché, et exempt de faute de style; que l'orthographe, la grammaire et la typographie sont irréprochables et homogènes.

Well written means the level of language is correct, even sought after, and free from errors of style; the orthography, grammar, and typography are impeccable and consistent.

We don't actually mention orthography, grammar, and typography at WIAFA. But what I thought more interesting is that, while they obviously mimiced .en in general, they didn't carry "brilliant" across (I believe it could be "voire brillant" or "voire magnifique").

What would "sought after" mean if we unpacked it at WIAFA? Maybe distilling the following: "for the discipline in question, this is the professional language I am looking for." Our medical articles don't need "brilliant" prose; they need clinical prose. Ditto evolution related topics. "Brilliant" perhaps works for literature and theatre but not philosophy, which often needs to be laboriously precise. As for the religion debates on-going, I might agree that Islam is not brilliant prose but I firmly disagree it could not get through FAC on 1a: its prose is didactic, in the positive sense of the term. See what the Denver Post had to say about it, Global warming, and Evolution. The FA process is clearly capable of managing prose, but perhaps it is time to drop "brilliant" in favour of something else that better reflects best practice. Marskell (talk) 07:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the "brilliant" prose part seems like a literary standard that does not apply to many topics that are not, as you say "works for literature and theatre". I see many complaints of dull prose for articles that have be made "laboriously precise", although the articles may be extremely well organized and clearly written, "didactic in a positive sense", on a difficult topic. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:27, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image review needed

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Farce of RCCs Fifth FAC

I think it's quite clear that after this fifth round of the farce that is FAC, that the FAC system is broken, and that no Catholic article that isn't a "blistering expose of Catholic evil" is going to make it past the clique of POV-pushers at FAC. The FAC process and personnel need an urgent and thoroughgoing review so that a few biased opposers are no longer allowed to continually stymie an article with vague and unspecified allegations of POV until it fits in with their viewpoint. The running of the RCC FAC by Sandy has been chronic. She has done nothing to rigorously test opposes and see that they were precise and fitted the criteria, and has consistently made laughably biased interventions on behalf of the the same clique of "reviewers". I notice the same Marskell whocame late to the FAC with POV opposes, is actually a delegate on FAR - the same FAR that voted the extremely unbalanced Islam article (see my post above) a free ride back to FA status! Unbelievable! The bronze star means very little in real terms now by the standard of much of the junk that gets passed on the nod, while articles of effort and substance on major topics are treated in this manner. All that this ludicrous joke of a process will produce is a total lack of articles on major topics coming up for featured status. Xandar 23:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I really can't stand high-profile FAs. They are unbelievably ridiculous. Wrad (talk) 00:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just accept that FAC is controlled by a small group of people who toe the bit, so they can get their articles through when the time comes, and who like to "discuss" things a lot but not change anything. You have to become one of the FAC group if you want to pass a controversial article. No big deal. It is not "fair". The Roman Catholic Church FAC is one in a long line of ridiculous FACs. Look at FAC as a reality show that (thankfully) doesn't reflect reality or even (thankfully) Wikipedia. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 343: / Line 343: @@
 :I think it's quite clear that after this fifth round of the farce that is FAC, that the FAC system is broken, and that no Catholic article that isn't a "blistering expose of Catholic evil" is going to make it past the clique of POV-pushers at FAC. The FAC process and personnel need an urgent and thoroughgoing review so that a few biased opposers are no longer allowed to continually stymie an article with vague and unspecified allegations of POV until it fits in with their viewpoint. The running of the RCC FAC by Sandy has been chronic. She has done nothing to rigorously test opposes and see that they were precise and fitted the criteria, and has consistently made laughably biased interventions on behalf of the the same clique of "reviewers". I notice the same Marskell whocame late to the FAC with POV opposes, is actually a delegate on FAR - the same FAR that voted the extremely unbalanced Islam article (see my post above) a free ride back to FA status! Unbelievable! The bronze star means very little in real terms now by the standard of much of the junk that gets passed on the nod, while articles of effort and substance on major topics are treated in this manner. All that this ludicrous joke of a process will produce is a total lack of articles on major topics coming up for featured status. [[user:Xandar|'''''<font color="003366">Xan</font>''''']][[User talk:Xandar#top|'''''<font color="00A86B">dar</font>''''']] 23:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 ::I really can't stand high-profile FAs. They are unbelievably ridiculous. [[User:Wrad|Wrad]] ([[User talk:Wrad|talk]]) 00:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
+:::Just accept that FAC is controlled by a small group of people who toe the bit, so they can get their articles through when the time comes, and who like to "discuss" things a lot but not change anything.  You have to become one of the FAC group if you want to pass a controversial article. No big deal. It is not "fair".  The [[Roman Catholic Church]] FAC is one in a long line of ridiculous FACs. Look at FAC as a [[reality show]]  that (thankfully) doesn't reflect reality or even (thankfully) Wikipedia.  &mdash;[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 00:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)