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Archived discussions about the decision using the case format can be found at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Proposed decision/Discussion of decision

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Proposed principles

If anyone wants to, just start a new discussion about a specific section of "Proposed principle" with the numbering used on the Proposed Decision page, and add the new section here in the same order, rather than at the bottom. Please include the principle numbering when you create a subsection title here. Carcharoth (talk) 13:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC) Originally proposed by JohnWBarber, modified by me later.[reply]

P22 Enough is enough

I think that the addition of P22 is a good addition. Obviously, it remains to be seen how it plays out in the actual remedies, but I encourage the Committee to apply it seriously. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed findings of fact

If anyone wants to, just start a new discussion about a specific section of "Finding of fact" with the numbering used on the Proposed Decision page, and add the new section here in the same order, rather than at the bottom. Please include the finding of fact numbering when you create a subsection title here, and please do not discuss remedies here. Carcharoth (talk) 13:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC) Originally proposed by JohnWBarber, modified by me later.[reply]

F21 A Quest For Knowledge's battlefield conduct

Roger Davies, regarding the second alleged BLP violation, here [1] -- how is that a BLP violation? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 15:08, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say it was. I said it was inappropriate. Roger Davies ^talk 15:16, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Roger Davies: That doesn't even make any sense. The article is about the Climategate scandal. It's supposed cover the allegations. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:34, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Inappropriate" seems a little insignificant for an ArbCom finding. How does that differ from violating a policy? Why include either of the two BLP findings as inappropriate? More generally -- and this is addressed also to Shell and Coren -- not that I necessarily disagree with the tactic, but what is the reason for delving down into what are normally considered minor breaches of policy that (I think) would usually receive warnings? I mean, what do you hope to accomplish? If the bar is set as low as "inappropriate", I suppose the result will be that everyone involved will eventually get swept into the case, but as I said before, that makes Wikipedia effectively a trap for anyone involving themselves in any long-term controversial topic on the encyclopedia. The encyclopedia tempts and frustrates with the promise that anyone can edit and deludes editors into thinking that policy will be enforced, the encyclopedia doesn't enforce policy for months or years, then ArbCom swoops in and sanctions on the basis of not even a violation of policy, but inappropriate conduct involving the policy. Ninety-nine percent of the editors who edit pages connected to controversies would be swept up in the trap, and the other one percent would not be the best editors. I'm not actually saying I disagree with the tactic, but I don't know why you're casting these big, fine nets. Why are you? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 15:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLP doesn't even apply since the University of East Anglia is not a person, it's a thing. But even if it were a person, it's still reliably sourced to three different articles.[2][3][4] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The sources talk about the unit as a distinct legal/corporate entity: the comment applies this to the people involved (some of whom are identifed in the article). Roger Davies ^talk 16:17, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Roger, an allegation that authorities comment on, and in which they say no prosecution will take place because of a statute-of-limitation type issue, is fair game for any BLP, let alone an article about the controversy in which the law violations are a prominent feature. I suggest you take some time and rethink this. Also, you've recently commented in the Rd232 section that you didn't see a pattern of conduct. The same problem presents itself here, regarding BLP. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. Minor4th 16:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLP: "The policy does not normally apply to edits about corporations, companies, or other entities regarded as legal persons, though any such material must comply with the other content policies." The diff in question is an edit about the UAE -- a university employing 2,500 staff -- you cannot violate BLP policy with respect to a large university. What is going on here? And, yes, please do take another look at the proposed finding about Rd232 because there are some wide disrepancies in the way that policy is being applied and stretched by the Arbs. Minor4th 16:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

←(after edit conflicts) - "The article is about the Climategate scandal." - Actually, it was about the theft of some documents and the manufactured controversy that subsequently arose. There was no "scandal" to speak of. Nor was the word used by reliable sources. It is perhaps terminology like this that ratcheted up the rhetoric at that particular article. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From The Guardian on July 7. [5] So what are the issues raised? [...] The emails show the scientists [...] appeared to work to block requests filed under Freedom of Information law and even suggested deleting information to prevent it being released." Going by what the sources say, and this is only one among many, the possibility of a violation of FOIA law was part of the controversy. This [6] is what The Guardian published the day before AQFK's January 28 edit. It's a little hard for AQFK to be promoting a "battleground atmosphere" in that article by adding to the lead a straightforward reflection of what was in newspapers like The Guardian at the time. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

People seem to be trying to excuse the use of words like 'criminals' here. Here are some reminders: The ICO wrote, "The prima facie evidence from the published emails indicate an attempt to defeat disclosure by deleting information."[7] Before any conviction (which would not be a criminal law matter anyway) it would have been necessary to show that (a) some information was deleted and (b) this was done to defeat FOI disclosure (rather than as a routine matter or as part of commercial copyright terms). Sure an email talks about deleting stuff, but further investigations have shown that nothing was ever actually deleted in this way by its sender or by any of its few recipients (afaik). The sender and recipients of the email are easily ascertained. That is why sensible commentators have used moderate language, and so should we. --Nigelj (talk) 17:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[8] -- JohnWBarber (talk) 18:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thats very interesting - but none of the two definitions fit here - do they? No evidence of crime committed, and no conviction. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:22, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, more than just interesting. The diff in question stated: Allegations that UEA violated the Freedom of Information Act were confirmed by the Information Commissioner's Office but the people involved cannot be prosecuted because the complaint was made too late Lead paragraph from The Guardian coverage [9] from the day before the edit: The University of East Anglia flouted Freedom of Information regulations in its handling of requests for data from climate sceptics, according to the government body that administers the act. [...] Smith said no action could be taken against the university because the specific request they had looked at happened in May 2008, well outside the six-month limit for such prosecutions under the act. That article remains on the Guardian website without a correction. Following the sources is not the stuff ArbCom findings are built on. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 20:37, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Roger Davies: I'm glad to see that you seem to be conceding that this wasn't a BLP violation. This is good. However, you're claiming that I made "inappropriate allegations". I did not make any allegation at all in this diff.[10] I simply reported back what BBC News,[11] The Guardian[12] and The Telegraph[13] said. You seem to be confusing personal opinion with writing in a disinterested tone. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:42, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, let me rephrase that. I did not make the allegation. The Information Commissioner's Office made the allegation which was then covered by secondary, reliable sources. All I did was report what the sources said in a disinterested tone. You seem to be confusing personal opinion with the opinion of the sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, you decided to cite this in the lead section of an article. It was a sign of poor judgement on a BLP issue. It's not really sensible to blame the source for this. I think it's possible that you're dwelling exclusively on this and failing to see the bigger picture. Coupled with your insistence that it's okay to say that the CRU scientists are criminals, which they are not, this is worrying. --TS 21:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tony Sidaway: There was nothing wrong with that edit and I'd be happy to bring this up at the BLP Noticeboard. I'll respond to the latter point once Roger Davies has had an opportunity to explain why it's "inappropriate". A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well we've been through this a few times already. The noticeboards are useful for basic stuff, but when we're examining how a person approaches editing they're not going to be much use. I'm sure the other arbitrators all have opinions on this, so perhaps trying so strenuously to examine his opinion isn't the best use of our time. Why do I, for instance, find your attitude to editing on the subject a little disturbing? I'm not Roger. --TS 21:43, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, you tell me. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:49, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is the dictionary definition of crime:
- "an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law; especially : a gross violation of law".
This is the dictionary definition of criminal:
- "1: one who has committed a crime 2: a person who has been convicted of a crime".
Did not all the three RS, the BBC, Guardian and Telegraph, state the Commissioner's view that there had been a breach of freedom of information law that was, by its nature, prosecutable and punishable, but could not be prosecuted because the statute of limitations had expired? --JN466 22:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Jayen466, have you looked at the full statement made by Graham Smith that the sources are reporting? What does it say? Viriditas (talk) 00:24, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - I haven't, and would indeed be grateful if you could point me to it. For present purposes, however, I maintain that what we need to look at is whether AQFK's comments and conclusions drawn from reading the Guardian, BBC and Telegraph reports were reasonable, and conclusions of the sort that any editor who had read these sources might draw. --JN466 00:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - But, AQFK's additions to the lead were drawn from a summary of the article, an article written by a consensus of interested editors. He made them without pointing to a specific source or adding a citation, and avoided having to deal with that pesky consensus thing. What does the current article say? Is this edit still preserved? Why or why not? Viriditas (talk) 00:59, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - (edit conflict) I have now (re-)read the Times article, which says, "A spokesman for the ICO said: 'The legislation prevents us from taking any action but from looking at the emails it’s clear to us a breach has occurred.' Breaches of the act are punishable by an unlimited fine. ... In a statement, Graham Smith, Deputy Commissioner at the ICO, said: 'The e-mails which are now public reveal that Mr Holland’s requests under the Freedom of Information Act were not dealt with as they should have been under the legislation. Section 77 of the Act makes it an offence for public authorities to act so as to prevent intentionally the disclosure of requested information.' He added: 'The ICO is gathering evidence from this and other time-barred cases to support the case for a change in the law. We will be advising the university about the importance of effective records management and their legal obligations in respect of future requests for information.'" --JN466 01:00, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Who is the spokesman? Is it the same person as Graham Smith? Can you confirm they are the same person? I could not. They apparently were misquoted, as the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report says that there may have been a breach. It does not confirm that a breach occurred.[14] According to the latest report, dated September 2010, "Handling of the Freedom of Information requests was found to be inadequate, but it was concluded that the responsibility lies primarily with the university administration, not individual research units such as CRU."[15] AQFK's disputed and controversial addition to the lead section, which was not a summary of the article as he claimed, stated "Allegations that UEA violated the Freedom of Information Act were confirmed by the Information Commissioner's Office but the people involved cannot be prosecuted because the complaint was made too late." Well, according to the most recent investigation "the people involved" are not responsible. Viriditas (talk) 01:12, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - We have to look at AQFK's talk page statement in the temporal context in which it was made, do we not? AQFK made his talk page comment on 28 January, the day all these news reports appeared. The Times stated on that day, bluntly, "The university at the centre of the climate change row over stolen e-mails broke the law by refusing to hand over its raw data for public scrutiny. ... The Information Commissioner’s Office decided that UEA failed in its duties under the Act but said that it could not prosecute those involved because the complaint was made too late. ...The stolen e-mails ... showed how the university’s Climatic Research Unit attempted to thwart requests for scientific data and other information, and suggest that senior figures at the university were involved in decisions to refuse the requests. Given this backdrop of news reporting, I do not find it just to condemn AQFK for the talk page comment he made on that day, given the information before him at the time. Whether or not the findings changed later on (a point I am not clear about at this time) should not enter our considerations, as it would be unfair to expect AQFK to know the future. This relates just to the talk page statement whose diff was included in the FoF proposed by Roger. --JN466 01:23, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Grahm Smith of the ICO refers to errors "frequently made in press reports" on p.30 of the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report.[16] Careful Wikipedia editors know all about these errors published during current events, and follow Wikipedia:Recentism whenever possible, paying especially close attention to damaging claims in regards to WP:BLPs. AQFK had been participating on the talk page for quite some time before this edit, and was well aware and acquainted with the danger of using sources carelessly. That still does not explain his edit to the lead section, which contrary to his claim, did not summarize the body of the article. How do you explain his edit to the lead? As far as I can tell, AQFK put his own POV above that of the encyclopedia. Viriditas (talk) 01:31, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Viriditas, go to the diff in question, scroll down to the bottom of the "Timeline" section. It's there in the last paragraph. Not that it matters. I don't care how small-bore this ArbCom decision is going to get, it is never going to sanction AQFK for violating WP:LEAD, a style guideline. And as a matter of fact, it isn't even prohibited to have information only in the lead and not the rest of the article. So: This horse has officially been beaten to death, every which way it possibly can be. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:23, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        
        This is the edit in question, is it not? It does not claim to summarise the article content (although content on the commissioner's statement had been added a couple of hours prior). AQFK's edit summary was, "Added IOC ruling to lede." The hidden comment in the lede ("... this summarises fully cited statements in the body of the article ...") was there before his edit, and does not seem to have been introduced by AQFK. So all he said was, "Added IOC ruling to lede." This was breaking news on the day, and what AQFK added to the lead adequately summarised what the Times, BBC, Guardian and Telegraph were reporting that day. His wording does in fact seem to owe more to the Times, which appears to have broken the story first (according to the Telegraph, the statement by Smith that all four sources are quoting was made to the Times). So we have an editor who, on a day when all quality UK media covered this as a major breaking news item, added this piece of news, which had just been added to the body of the article, to the lead, adequately reflecting the sources. This is something that editors do here every day. I am not saying that there may not be lessons here for editors, including AQFK, but it is not something worth sanctioning AQFK for, and it is not a BLP violation in my view, given the variety of quality media all covering this in pretty much the same terms AQFK used in his edit. --JN466 02:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

AQFK's alleged incivility / promoting-battleground-mentalitydiffs

A total of six comments are cited that were "incivil or promoted a battleground mentality":

In this diff [17] AQFK said: Gwen, you've been told ~7 times now (I believe that this is number 8) that this is an opinion piece. Please stop wasting our time. He obviously didn't get what Gwen Gale was saying. If I didn't get it, I'd be as frustrated as AQFK appears to have been. I don't see the incivility or battleground behavior, however, just frustration and some curtness.
The second one [18]. OK. Fair enough. It promoted a battleground mentality.
The third one [19] expresses frustration with editors. I experienced the same frustration and left the article he was talking about several days before this comment was made. The discussion on his talk page is similar to about a thousand discussions on the talk pages of other editors involved in this case. I see frustration expressed, but I don't see anything that violates WP:BATTLEGROUND. I think an explanation is in order.
The fourth diff [20] Again, I fail to see any vio of WP:BATTLEGROUND. He states that he and others need to take disputes to proper content-resolution or dispute-resolution venues on Wikipedia. It's what he's supposed to do if he feels something wrong is being done. It's an option we're all supposed to have.
The fifth diff [21] If every editor here actually followed Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy I would agree with you. However, the past 3 months have shown that discussion with both of the two warring factions is, for the most part, completely pointless. Mildly battleground behavior.
Sixth and final diff [22] A simple request, accompanied by seven diffs of edit warring, asking at WP:GSCCRE that an admin "lock down" the article. I don't see how this is an example of comments that were incivil or promoted a battleground mentality.

In short, the case for AFQK making comments that were incivil or promoted a battleground mentality is unproven except for the second and fifth diff, and the fifth only mildly. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:24, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm baffled by that last diff. Maybe it was a copy and paste error? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:08, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Community-wide findings require community-wide discussion

We have roughly 40,000 editors and over 3 million articles, many of which contain some BLP material. I'm concerned that this FoF, if passed, has community-wide repercussions. If ArbCom rules that editors can be sanctioned even when following our WP:BLP policy, this might have a chilling effect across the project. If passed, any editor can be dragged before ArbCom for making good faith edits that followed WP:BLP. If you make a good faith edit about Barry Bonds and steroids?[23] You can be dragged before ArbCom. Make a good faith edit about George W. Bush and weapons of mass destruction?[24] You can be dragged before ArbCom. Make a good faith edit about Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinski?[25] You can be dragged before ArbCom. If ArbCom is actually serious about this FoF, then I think that a ruling of this magnitude requires community-wide discussion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:50, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relax. They'll never pass it. We over-discussed it on this page. Famous last words. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:39, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed remedies

If anyone wants to, just start a new discussion about a specific section of "Proposed remedy" with the numbering used on the Proposed Decision page, and add the new section here in the same order, rather than at the bottom. Please include the remedy numbering when you create a subsection title here, and please discuss the associated findings in their own sections above. Carcharoth (talk) 14:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Remedy 2

"Climate change sanctions noticeboard superseded". If this happens, what becomes of the sanctions logged here? Some of them are still in force. Are they superseded too, or do they continue? Cardamon (talk) 23:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm specifically not counting warnings/cautions from CC probation when I say the following: At this point, only GregJackP's and Thegoodlocust's sanctions should be superseded. Any other editors should have continuing sanctions; that is, if any other users on this list of active sanctions may have either superseding or concurrent restrictions, then I think ArbCom should reconsider whether this is the right thing to be doing in this case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the sanctions themselves should be reviewed, since some of them seem to have been applied with scant regard for what one might consider to be the normal process. This sanction against me, for example, was actioned 4 hours after the initial report in the middle of the night with no discussion or a chance to defend myself. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a sanction; it's a warning/caution - see also my first sentence (it's more of a restatement or reminder of policy to alert you that if you breach policy, you'll be sanctioned; it's not the same as an actual sanction). Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:59, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clearing that up. The terminology had me confused. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The remedy only replaces the noticeboard for the purposes of further imposition of sanctions; note that it states that the noticeboard "should no longer be used for future sanctions discussions" (emphasis mine). Any existing sanctions are not affected by it (although they may be by other remedies in this case, at least as far as individual users are concerned). Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 20:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed enforcement

If anyone wants to, just start a new discussion about a specific section of "Proposed enforcement" with the numbering used on the Proposed Decision page, and add the new section here in the same order, rather than at the bottom. Please include the enforcement numbering when you create a subsection title here. Carcharoth (talk) 13:17, 29 August 2010 (UTC) Originally proposed by JohnWBarber, modified by me later.[reply]

New proposals

Please remember to sign all new proposals made. Alternatives to existing proposals are best posted above in a section discussing that proposal. Please keep all disucssion on-topic to the proposal and don't drift off-topic into discussing other proposals. Carcharoth (talk) 14:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC) This replaces the previous discussion.[reply]

Archives

Archived proposals can be found at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Proposed decision/New proposals.

Proposed finding: Rd232's battlefield conduct

Rd232 (talk · contribs) has engaged in disruptive behavior, including edit warring [26] ,[27],[28] ,[29] ,[30] ,[31], [32],[33],[34],[35], and comments that were incivil and reinforced a battleground mentality[36],[37], [38],[39].

Minor4th 22:17, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your first few diffs did not check out, so I didn't look at the rest. It is not "edit warring" to revert a disputed edit. Reverting is not inherently bad. In fact, reverting can be good if it improves the article. Jehochman ^Talk 12:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure you're correct. When I reverted a disputed edit, once, it was called edit warring and a finding was made in this case. I'm confused. But hold your horses because there are more diffs that I forgot to add. Minor4th 06:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The best example is Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol, where reversion is part of the job. Viriditas (talk) 12:44, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(od) Nothing obviously sanctionable here. Roger Davies ^talk 20:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting because some of the diffs were from the same "revert war" in a finding against me, and Rd232 reverted twice, to my once. Can you please remove those from the finding about me if they are not obviously sanctionable -- alternatively, make a similar finding about Rd232. Oh, and I just remembered another couple of edit wars Rd232 was engaged in. I'll grab those diffs too. Thanks for your help Roger Davies. Minor4th 06:10, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. Yours are evidence of a larger pattern, which is absent in Rd232's case. Roger Davies ^talk 06:12, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Hold that thought, while I present Rd232's larger pattern. Minor4th 06:16, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Amended proposed finding: Rd232's disruptive conduct (the larger pattern)

Rd232 (talk · contribs) has engaged in disruptive behavior, including edit warring, and comments that were incivil and reinforced a battleground mentality.

Diane Francis edit war

[40]first revert,

[41] second revert

[42]third revert,

[43]fourth revert,

[44] fifth revert,

[45] sixth revert,

[46] seventh revert & Rd232 blocked the editor he was in a content dispute with

Richard North edit war

[47]first revert,

[48] second revert,

[49] third revert,

Christopher Booker edit war

[50] first revert -- edit war was already in progress when Rd232 joined,

[51] second revert,

[52] third revert,

Fred Seitz edit war

[53] first revert,

[54] second revert,

[55] third revert,

Michael Mann edit war

[56] first revert,

[57] second revert,

[58] third revert

[59] added POV tag against CC probation imposed by NW

Incivil comments/battleground mentality

[60] "this is bullshit",

[61] "you're wrong. I'm tired of repeating myself."

Minor4th 07:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the extra diffs. These are almost all BLPs which are a special case. My reactions?

Diane Francis edit war BLP claim: presumably because of the arguably pointy two children remark.
Richard North edit war Not really an edit war
Christopher Booker edit war Moving stuff about is not edit-warring.
Fred Seitz edit war Not really edit warring
Michael Mann edit war BLP claim - presumably because of the incomplete nature of the investigation / WP:UNDUE / WP:NOTNEWS
Incivil comments/battleground mentality Only one even slightly actionable diff there.

Other arbitrators review these pages and might find these allegations actionable. I'm afraid I don't. Roger Davies ^talk 15:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I'm not seeing anything much here either. There are appropriate times to revert, the BLP policy being the main example which seems to be much of the case here. "Bullshit" is probably not terribly helpful, but pointing out that circular discussion is wearing and unhelpful isn't what I'd call incivil. Shell ^babelfish 15:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, the Arb findings and lack thereof are "bullshit." Now, 3RR is out the window and edit wars are A-Ok based on Roger's evaluation of content? Wow. Minor4th 16:49, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like some clarification here from the Arbs -- Roger's comment appears to be saying that reverting 7 times is not edit warring as long as you claim "BLP exemption", even if there's no BLP issue. That cannot possibly be what he means. Please, take a moment and look carefully at the diffs in the context of the article, not just the pop-up.

Note also that Rd232 blocked the other editor to win the content dispute. Then Rd232 continued to "taunt" the blocked editor on his talk page, despite the fact that the editor had asked R to stay off his talk page. (I'm not inclined to dig up the diffs because they do not seem to be taken seriously.) Then R dug up articles the blocked editor had created and tried to speedy delete them under G5 but was reversed -- so he then took them to AfD.

In the middle of a very contentious redirect war, Rd232 disregarded an ongoing merge discussion and redirected the article to user space -- a fully sourced, 54 kb brand new article. (again, no diffs ....).

Those diffs above show edit warring -- a legitimate BLP issue may be appropriate to cross the 3RR threshold, but those diffs do not show a BLP violation for the 7 reverts. Yesterday, Roger said the editing was not actionable because there was no "pattern." I revealed the pattern with a variety of diffs across several articles, and now the pattern is not sanctionable because it's appropriate to revert 3, 5, and 7 times and Roger appears to be citing UNDUE and NOTNEWS as good justification to revert several times.

Do I really want Rd232 to be sanctioned? No, I don't. I was in favor of a clean slate approach with some strict enforcement of policy. But, if you're going to single out editors based on thin, tenuous diffs (look at ATren's finding and Cla's for example), just be consistent -- you all are applying different standards for different editors, and the appearance is it cuts across POV lines. What about Verbal? What about ScienceApologist?

Look again at the diffs used to support the finding against me please. Compare them to the diffs I provided above for Rd2332. This is very unbalanced. Minor4th 17:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the Diane Francis issue is fairly well described at User talk:Rd232#Freakshownerd, including the BLP issue and the FSN block. On the alleged "taunting" which Minor4th declines to provide diffs for - possibly he is taking Freakshownerd's user talk page claims at face value, which is a mistake (FSN's selective removal and editorialising of my comments there can be seen from the talk page history). Rd232 ^talk 19:32, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Minor4th, I respectfully suggest that Wikipedia editors in general want to do the best for Wikipedia, that includes you. I also suggest that admins in general are more dedicated to the good of Wikipedia than other Wikipedia editors. I suggest that Wikipedia Arbitration Committee members can be counted on to be very dedicated to the good of Wikipedia. When many fellow Wikipedians are all telling you the same thing, especially when they are members of the more elite groups that I mentioned, I suggest that it is extremely important to listen to them. Try to better understand their point of view, their goal is the good of Wikipedia. I assume that is also your goal. I further suggest that if we disagree with what we're being told that it is even more important to try to understand because they are much more experienced than we are and they are likely correct. Bill Huffman (talk) 18:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bill Huffman, I agree completely that probably everyone here is motivated for the good of Wiki, including me, Rd232, you, Arb, marknutley and WMC. If it were otherwise, we wouldn't be here trying to figure this all out. We all have different ideas about how to best serve Wiki, however, and we also all have very strong opinions and are not shy about expressing them -- and we all think we are 100% right, 100% of the time. For what it's worth, I have tried to understand -- I have asked for clarification on many issues and have asked for feedback on my behavior, and I have paid very close attention to everything that has been happening in the case because I am trying to learn and become a better editor. Although the elite groups have more experience, I do not think that always translates into having a monopoly on good judgment or critical evaluation -- on those things, reasonable people can and will disagree, irrespective of the status they have attained. I don't have a problem being wrong or having a disagreement over a finding -- but I would really like an explanation about some of these issues I raised because I cannot make sense of them. Minor4th 19:13, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I've misread something in the diffs, but there seems to be an inconsistency in Roger Davies and Shell rejecting the edit war evidence against Rd232 at the Christopher Booker article when two diffs from Minor4th in the same series of reverts are identified as edit warring on the PD finding [62] (see second and third edit-warring diffs) which both Roger and Shell have voted to support. I assume Shell and Roger Davies forgot that they'd voted to sanction Minor4th for the same thing, but it's nevertheless very troubling. It looks like bias (unconscious bias, I assume). I'm asking Roger and Shell to explain what happened here. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Additions

If evidence of a pattern is needed, some more diffs of personal attacks, edit warring, POV pushing, and failure to AGF can be found at:

User:SandyGeorgia/Venezuela articles#Rd232.

The personal attacks have diminished since I started keeping diffs, but the tendentious editing and creating of entire articles that overrely on one partisan source continues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh Sandy! Apart from being irrelevant (completely different topic), that genuinely hurts. I've put a lot of effort into trying to make less use of the source you object to, purely because you object to it - not because there's anything wrong with it (as demonstrated by lengthy RSN discussion). Rd232 ^talk 19:38, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In fairness, I did note that the personal attacks have diminished (recently); however, the tendentious editing and failure to AGF continues (which is beyond the scope of this particular case, so I won't add evidence here). I stopped keeping diffs when your behavior improved (and others simultaneously worsened), but I can't deny that I see a pattern, specifically in terms of "collective blocs of editors" trying to use mere numbers to overrule Wiki pillars on the Chavez articles, now that others have presented that here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:01, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As someone familiar with that page, I do not see the problems that SandyGeorgia does. If she believes that better sources are available then she should provide them. I have never seen another editor present the same level of hostility to a subject than she does to Hugo Chavez. TFD (talk) 21:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have presented reliable mainstream sources in spades, but you characterize the OAS, European Parliament, Wall Street Journal, Economist, CNN, the New York Times and UPI.com (and *many* others) as a fringe, TeaParty view that SandyGeorgia is presenting, and say I have never presented mainstream sources and my sources are "opeds" (a charge repeated by unsuspecting new editors who end up blocked)-- hence, the similarities in battleground, and collective blocs of editors using mere numbers to overrule Wiki sourcing policies who are involved in these cases. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:16, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If there are diffs showing the same kind of behavior on non-CC pages as can be found on CC pages, the diffs would help show a general pattern that I think ArbCom would be very interested in. The behavior Roger Davies has said (elsewhere on this page) that he's interested in seeing editors provide evidence of follows, generally, this pattern on the PD page:

[Editor] has engaged in disruptive behavior, including edit warring [diff], [diff], [diff], [diff], inappropriate use of sources [diff], [diff], [diff], [diff], and comments that were incivil and reinforced a battleground mentality [diff], [diff], [diff], [diff].

Diffs that fall into these descriptions or others found on the PD page will likely get some careful consideration by several arbs. But it is going to take diffs. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:50, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

<sigh> ... if you insist, but I regret having to spell this out when it's already documented above. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rd232 at Venezuela articles

Rd232 furthers a battleground mentality at Venezuela and Hugo Chavez-related articles, where a collective bloc of editors use mere numbers to overrule Wiki's NPOV and sourcing policies, fail to AGF, make personal attacks, cleanse the article of highly reliable sources critical of Chavez, and edit war, which results in a toxic environment that encourages new editors to engage in same, and has maintained the entire suite of articles in a POV state for more than four years. For general problems of collective behavior, see User:SandyGeorgia/Venezuela articles. In Rd232's case, because he is an admin, other editors believe this behavior is acceptable on Wiki, give up and leave (too many to name, but they regularly show up on my talk page pleading for help), or model it across these articles and have been subsequently blocked (see User talk:ValenShephard). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks

You are a malicious and manipulative editor of the highest order
It is sadly ironic that Sandy is pressuring me to either fuck off into retirement or take the semiretirement tag off, given that I largely semi-retired because of her harassment. Unfortunately, she is incredibly good at it. Unsolicited messages and emails of support from people who have had similar issues with her on unrelated topics have made me feel less alone; but also more exposed. People seem scared to take her on - and it's bloody obvious why! (The prolific sockpuppet who followed me to Venezuela articles and apparently e-mailed him is now indeffed.)
that's both ludicrous and yet entirely typical of Sandy
This alone should tell people who do not know Sandy's dark side that there are shenanigans here.
prolonged personal attacks, including: "Sandy's crazy talk discussion I read all about the controversy between you and her. She is really a crazy person ...", "I just wanted to thank you for the constant harassment by SandyGeorgia you put up with ..."

Failure to AGF

Battleground

Other

Rollback to revert an edit that is not vandalism or BLP vio: [63], in fact, multiple reliable sources indicate Mark Weisbrot is pro-Chavez, and he was the co-writer of South of the Border (film), a pro-Chavez Oliver Stone film. This is not a BLP issue because of the strength of the sources. Romero, Simon (May 18, 2008). "Chávez Seizes Greater Economic Power". New York Times. Retrieved January 23, 2010. Mark Weisbrot, a Washington-based economist who is broadly supportive of Mr. Chávez's economic policies, ... and "Polls: Support for Chavez government falling". USA Today. March 18, 2008. Retrieved January 26, 2010. ... Weisbrot, who has supported Chavez's policies. and Film's website
BLP vio at Manuel Rosales, Chavez opponent forced into exile: [64] [65]

Edit warring

To be continued. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed finding: Verbal's battlefield conduct

Verbal (talk · contribs) has engaged in disruptive behavior, including edit warring and behavior that reinforced a battleground mentality[66],[67],[68],[69], [70],[71],[72], [73], [74], [75]

Minor4th 22:26, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Verbal's conduct is disruptive and contributes to a battleground atmosphere. He frequently engages in edit-wars, often with solo drive-by reverts, and without discussing issues on the talk page. I was about to organize some diffs myself[76][77] but I see that someone else beat me to it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:28, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You've got duplicates in your list of diffs. Please clean up your evidence and make sure it supports what you claim. Jehochman ^Talk 12:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Minor4th 07:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Minor4th: I've begun working on my own FoF regarding Verbal. It's in my user space here.[78] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:57, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors of interest

As we continue to work through individual findings, we've noted that a number of editors have been mentioned in discussion here as having problematic battleground behavior. We would welcome suggestions for proposed findings using the model seen in the most recent additions here. Though by no means exhaustive, in alphabetical order for no particular reason and for everyone's reference some of those mentioned have been:

Shell ^babelfish 11:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't edit in the area. My only actions are that of a bouncer trying to break up a brawl. I think it would be best to separate the involved from the uninvolved for the sake of clarity. I believe the only sysop action I have taken was to issue a topic ban to WMC. This was lifted after some discussion, and then WMC wisely volunteered to cease editing in the area pending ArbCom posting a decision. Otherwise, I organized a voluntary recusal by about 15 editors. Not sure what I've done that could be construed as battling; a referee usually doesn't get called for a penalty (though often people on both sides will dispute some of the referee's actions, quite passionately.) Jehochman ^Talk 12:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would add :

ScienceApologist (talk · contribs) for edit warring, battleground: [79], [80], [81],[82],[83],[84],[85],[86]
Rd232 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) for edit warring, battleground : [87]
Petri Krohn (talk · contribs) for incivility [88]

I will add more diffs later. Minor4th 13:30, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is that single Rd232 diff supposed to show? Whatever it is, I'm not seeing it. MastCell ^Talk 21:21, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't really supposed to show anything -- it was the beginning of what ultimately was a collection of diffs. See the section above with the proposed finding. There you will find the diffs for this user. Minor4th 01:19, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest adding

A Quest For Knowledge (talk · contribs) for completeness
Bill Huffman (talk · contribs) whose sole purpose in being here seems to be to run down Cla at every opportunity.
dave souza (talk · contribs) who is a long term participant
FellGleaming (talk · contribs) who has been involved in GS/CC/RE requests
Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs) whose administrative actions have not been without controversy.
Guettarda (talk · contribs) who is a long term participant
NuclearWarfare (talk · contribs) who has had recent accusations of bias and involvement levied
Ratel (talk · contribs) who has been cautioned for disruption, and who was running a string of socks at one point
ScottyBerg (talk · contribs) who is recent but seems to be quite partisan
ScienceApologist (talk · contribs) who is a long term participant
Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk · contribs) who is a long term participant
Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs) who is mentioned below for excessive clerking/hatting, and who has contributed to the battleground atmosphere.
Viriditas (talk · contribs) who is a long term participant

to your list ++Lar: t/c 15:03, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also add

Verbal (talk · contribs) See prior discussion on this page: [89] Minor4th 14:38, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is shaping up to be a list of everyone who edits in the area. There's a reason for that. The editing environment is so toxic, one cannot edit in the area for more than a handful of edits unless one is aggressive. A closer look will reveal that some are aggressively trying to enforce policy while others are aggressively violating it. Minor4th 14:38, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to waste my time and ask you to remove some of the "skeptics" from the list, but I don't think Count Iblis should be on there. Perhaps the evidence shows otherwise, but he seems reasonable to me. The others make some very good suggestions, but I think it is diluted somewhat with the inclusion of editors with less behavioral issues - I don't blame them though because the minimal threshold for such behavior seems quite low in some cases. TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should remove Jehochman as well. He has certainly said and done things that I disagree with, and I have no love for the man, but I don't think his behavior needs to be addressed. TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would of course agree that I am reasonable :) . However, what we can also do is look at the contributions of a large fraction of all the editors who have been heavily involved in the CC field to get a better understanding of the sources of the problems, what provokes bad behavior, what kind of restrictions would work best etc. etc. For this you also need to look at editors who have been heavily involved in the CC area and have behaved in a good way. I would suggest adding the following editors:

and the old-timers:

I.m.o., it is very important for ArbCom to look at these old-timers. This puts the present conflicts into a better perspective. Looking at this shows i.m.o. that the source of the problem is the entrenched position of sceptics that climate science is fundamentally flawed, which clashes with the opinion of other editors who treat climate science as any other scientific topic.

You'll also see that Andrewjlockley had been pushing views suggesting that the consequences of climate change may be far more serious than the consensus view suggests. His edits were based on bad science and poor understanding of what sources say. This led to the "pro-science faction" (most of whom are active today) giving Andrewjlockley warnings see here and also in later sections on his talk page. Count Iblis (talk) 18:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We also had one chap earlier this year on Talk:Global warming saying the article was flawed because it didn't have anything about the Amazon rainforests bursting into flames, which he seemed to have read on some website or other. He got really upset when we said we weren't going to include such unsourced nonsense. I was never quite sure he was serious. --TS 18:09, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He might have been referring to another one of the IPCC's errors about the Amazon being massively more vulnerable to forest fires/drought from global warming (some insane figure from greenpeace I think). TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was WWF, based on peer reviewed research. The nonsense came from a Sunday Times journalist who grossly misrepresented the facts and sought to blame the IPCC. The newspaper also misrepresented the words of a scientist they sought out for comment. According to the Press Complaints Commission, whose decisions carry regulatory weight in the UK, the newspaper has acknowledged this and published a correction and apology.[90]. --TS 18:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Based" on peer-review research isn't the same as actually being peer-review research. I haven't looked into details about that particular case, but I've looked at their other incredibly stupid errors based on pamphlets from various advocacy groups and if that history is any indicator then their claims were quite ridiculous. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting off topic. The Sunday Times has publicly acknowledged that WWF's claim that "up to 40% of the Amazon rainforest could be sensitive to future changes in rainfall." is in fact supported by the scientific research. --TS 19:09, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If it is getting off-topic then hat the conversation - beginning with your comment. In any case I'll link WUWT's article on the retraction. It is clearly a ridiculous claim anyway, challenged by scientific research (in the article) - if someone thinks global warming is going to screw over 40% of the Amazon then they should demand a refund for the time and money spent educating them. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:13, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have cited the Press Complaints Commission, you have cited a blog. It seems appropriate to leave it there. --TS 19:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh Tony, I linked the article so you could read it and judge its merits rather than evoking an argument from authority. We aren't writing an article here so it is okay to read the blog. But hey, since you didn't read it then name the peer-reviewed paper that the 40% claim was based on. You say it is peer-reviewed so name the paper, the author(s) and the journal. Maybe I'm wrong, I'll admit if I am, and you now have an easy way of doing it. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:30, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Without comment on anything else in this thread, GoRight (talk · contribs) is currently indefinitely banned. I do not think that we should discuss sanctions without offering the right of reply. If they appeal the community ban and return to problematic editing, WP:AE should be able to handle it even without explicit mention in this case. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. Thanks for the information. Roger Davies ^talk 20:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That said, the subject of this comment appears to have been editing very similarly to GoRight and was clearly causing the same level of frustration to other contributors due to tendentious editing and wikilawyering (see also the other comments that the subject made on that version of the page). I'm a bit surprised at the limited evidence that was presented on this editor - evidently, the evidence does exist even in diffs like that, and editors were frustrated by the behavior (eg; on that version of that page, see where someone else says "But that's the end of my patience; one more accusation from you and I will have a LOI due to unpleasantness of working with you"). Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The editing environment is so toxic, one cannot edit in the area for more than a handful of edits unless one is aggressive." This is the culture, but it isn't necessary. The alternative is to be bureaucratic: strictly adhere to policy, try to gain consensus, and if others seriously violate policy then take it through the proper channels. Especially don't criticize others except as required to make very specific requests about what you are certain needs to happen. It's isn't impossible to be professional, it's just very difficult and not immediately rewarding. However, it becomes easier the more ArbCom does to clean things up. Mackan79 (talk) 22:14, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping on topic

In response to the desire expressed here to broaden the scope of the findings, Shell posted a request for draft FoFs. She and I are happy to review them and include them in the proposed decision if appropriate. However, little of the response has been usable. Instead, we've seen (i) endless meta discussion about areas that ArbCom is unlikely to touch and (ii) lists of potential FoF candidates that we simply do not have the time or resources to research from scratch. So, if there is someone is clearly missing, and a FoF would be appropriate, please post a draft, supported by good unambiguous diffs. The FoF should focus on obvious examples of battleground editing: incivility, blatant POV-pushing, dubious reverting, edit-warring etc. There's zero point in dwelling on content. Roger Davies ^talk 20:12, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Roger Davies: It's been a lot of work, but I've created FoF for Stephan Schultz and KimDabelsteinPetersen as requested. I've also created one of my own regarding Tony Sidaway. I've begun working on some more FoFs but they're mostly stubs. I'm getting a little burnt out so I might leave it to other editors to work on, not sure. They are available here: User:A_Quest_For_Knowledge/Climate_change_Proposed_decision. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon me for stepping out of the peanut gallery, but in light of There's zero point in dwelling on content, could you expand a bit on sourcing? There's been a great deal of discussion lately on "inappropriate use of sources" which has even made it into two of the proposed FoFs. From what I've been reading on the talk page here, it seems like the sourcing disputes are content related. Or, at least it seems nigh impossible to prove anyone is deliberately misusing a source. If those items remain in any FoFs, could ArbCom expand on Principle 11: Sourcing, or add an additional principle to explain 'inappropriate use' of a non-content nature? --InkSplotch (talk) 21:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In a sense, it's all about content: few of us are here for purely social reasons, the purpose of getting involved is to build the content of an encyclopedia. Roger Davies' list above includes 'blatant POV-pushing' and 'dubious reverting', but there are many people here who will say, "I wasn't POV pushing, they were" and "My revert wasn't dubious, but theirs was". The only way to decide on these points is to look at the sources for, and the notability of, the content in question. I don't see how this can be settled without some view (implicit or explicit) on the content. --Nigelj (talk) 22:22, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Finding of Fact: Stephan Schulz battlefield conduct

Stephan Schulz (talk · contribs) has engaged in disruptive behavior [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97], including edit warring [98] [99] [100] [101] [102] [103] [104] [105] [106] , inappropriate use of admin privileges [107] and comments that were uncivil and reinforced a battleground mentality. [108] [109] [110] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like mudflinging to me - indeed this proposed FoF looks like scorched-earth battlefield behaviour itself. Are you ready to defned those diffs you've put up? William M. Connolley (talk) 14:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. See below. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Finding of Fact: Stephan Schulz battlefield conduct (Alternative wording)

User:Stephan Schulz has engaged in disruptive behavior, including comments that were uncivil and reinforced a battleground mentality,[111][112][113] participated in several edit-wars, including BLPs,[114][115][116] editing to make a point,[117] [118][119] and inappropriate use of admin privileges.[120][121][122] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:13, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Detailed explanation

User:Stephan Schulz has engaged in disruptive behavior, including comments that were uncivil and reinforced a battleground mentality, participated edit-wars, including edit-wars regarding contentious material to BLPs, editing to make a point, and conduct unbecoming of an administrator.

Incivil Comments

Editing to make a point

[123] Stephan Schulz, an involved admin in the CC dispute, disruptively posted a comment in the uninvolved admin section for an RfE.
[124] This was then moved to its proper place.
[125] Schulz then falsely accuses Lar of being disruptive for moving his comment to the correct location.
[126] A Quest for Knowledge asked Schulz if he is intentionally posting in the uninvolved admin section.
[127] but Schulz responded with a less than helpful "Ummm....?"
[128] which he then changed to an equally unhelpful "What....?".
[129] Then, Schulz disruptively posted a second comment in the uninvolved admin section knowing that he's an involved admin, and daring uninvolved admins to edit war with him.

Edit-warring to include contentious material in a BLP (Fred Singer)

[130] Participates in edit-war to include a BLP violation sourced to a blog.

Participates in long-term edit war to remove "environmentalist" from Lawrence Solomon article

[131] Removes "environmentalist".
[132] Participates in edit war at Lawrence_Solomon - Removes "environmentalist"

Edit-warring at Lawrence Solomon article

[133] Yet another edit war at Lawrence Solomon. Removes external link. Note: StS rationale about EL may be correct. But he still shouldn't edit-war over this.
[134] Does it again.
[135] Does it again.

Misc

[136] Protects Phil Jones (climatologist) to preferred version[137] claiming dubious BLP violation.

Proposed FoF: ScienceApologist (SA) disruptive editing

SA recently redirected two articles Surfacestations and Watts Up With That? (WUWT). In the case of Surfacestations, discussion had barely started on the proposed merge and there was clearly no consensus for the merge. In the case of WUWT, there was no discussion at all. I guess I could file an enforcement request for these disruptive edits, as they are clearly reminiscent of the redirect and subsequent revert warring, again without discussion, that was used by a certain group of editors to try to make the Climate Audit article disappear. Like Climate Audit, WUWT and Surfacestations are two sites which take a contrarian view on man-made climate change. So, I think we have some agenda-driven editing going on here. ArbCom, please correct the behavior by SA. Cla68 (talk) 22:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that SA's editing needs to be reviewed. While you are at it, please look into the editing by 99.141.241.60 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log)) who has also been a cause of concern in the venue. There is background info at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive211#BLP.2C_SPAs.2C_a_proposal. See the info that was emailed to functionaries-en today. I believe most of you (arbitrators) subscribe to that list. Jehochman ^Talk 00:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you were referring to arbitrators being subscribed to that mailing list, Jehochman? It is a restricted list so most other readers/editors of this page would not be subscribed. Risker (talk) 03:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. Jehochman ^Talk 08:42, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, ScienceApologist merged and redirected the two web sites to Anthony Watts (blogger), in these edits he also expanded the Watts article four-fold by 19,000 bytes. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:55, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What info was emailed to functionaries today? Minor4th 03:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's the whole point of the functionaries list. Its for sensitive information not suitable for wider dissemination. Spartaz ^Humbug! 04:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, well I didn't know -- and if it's so sensitive, why would Jeh be on here telling everyone to go read it? Minor4th 04:55, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I assume Jehochman's exhortation was addressed to the active arbitrators. --TS 06:26, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. My entire comment was addressed to arbitrators. Jehochman ^Talk 08:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As the only editor to agree with Marknutley at the time, please see my comment (Sept. 8) why, on balance, I think it was unnecessary to split this information from the article in the first place. It may help explain why ScienceApologist acted boldly and moved it back. [138] Wikispan (talk) 18:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While it's certainly possible that ScienceApologist's editing in the area needs scrutiny, searching the Evidence page just now I note that there is only one piece of evidence related to his editing there. It may not be worth the Committee's while to spend much energy on this unless somebody comes up with a ready made finding that highlights glaring abuses that cannot be handled under the current probation through admin discretion, and cannot wait for the discretionary sanctions regime to be implemented. --TS 06:25, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cla is deliberately omitting the other half of this matter - the starting of these articles. Surfacestations was begun by MN 2010-09-05T12:14:24 Marknutley (talk | contribs) (526 bytes) (begin article) as another deliberate provocation just before his departure. There was no discussion of the "un-merge" yet I don't see Cla complaining about that. SA is merely returning the status quo ante, which is entirely reasonable. Furthermore, the de-merge was discussed and decided against ages ago, perhaps a year. So SA deserves praise for fixing up MN's error, not condemnation William M. Connolley (talk) 07:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[139] It was discussed mark nutley (talk) 07:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One thing I forgot to mention was that the WUWT article is currently in the queue for Good Article review. SA should have known that when he redirected it and the Surfacestations articles. Cla68 (talk) 08:05, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was not properly discussed, as "Blimey, that was quick!" on the talk page rather indicates. And no: putting an article up for GA does not shield it from editing William M. Connolley (talk) 08:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good article candidacy does not supercede normal editorial process. Jehochman ^Talk 08:45, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More importantly, it was in the GA queue, and not under any active review. Viriditas (talk) 08:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If an article is in such a state that it's a position to be good faith nominated for good article status, it doesn't shield it from normal editing, it does shield it from being boldly redirected. Unless there is evidence the good article nomination was in some way made in faith on an article/subject that didn't otherwise merit it. It is obvious to any reasonable editor that doing that would be opposed, so discussion should have absolutely been first.--Crossmr (talk) 12:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is also in the middle of peer review. Minor4th 14:57, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. WP:BOLD is not some kind of shield that let's you do whatever you want with no repercussions in every situation. While we often appreciate someone just going ahead and getting the job done, there are some situations where it is quite obvious that isn't going to help and this was one of them. Unless SA can give some evidence that the GA nomination and peer review were being done in bad faith this was purely disruptive.--Crossmr (talk) 00:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, WP:BOLD sort of is a shield that lets you do whatever you want - once. If other people don't like it, then you can't keep doing it. That's the rub. MastCell ^Talk 00:10, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But it's not is it? I couldn't go redirect Obama to Presidents of the United states and expect no one to say anything. As I quoted on AN/I (keep in mind Bold is a guideline, not policy to start with), it repeatedly instructs users to be careful. ...but please be careful Though the boldness of contributors like you is one of Wikipedia's greatest assets, it is important that contributors take care of the common good and not edit recklessly. and "Be bold, be bold, and everywhere be bold," but "Be not too bold." Redirecting an article that is in a good faith state to be nominated for good article status is reckless and too bold, plain and simple.--Crossmr (talk) 07:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User:ScienceApologist Has been highly disruptive within the CC related articles.

He has deliberately misrepresented sources. On Anthony Watts (blogger) a BLP

[140] Inserts the pejorative Denier into a BLP claiming the three sources are peer reviewed.
[141] User:Wenchell changes it to sceptic (note edit summary) and SA reverts Denier back in

The sources used by SA to call Watts a denier are being deliberately misrepresented. None of them call Watts a denier and only one is in a peer reviewed source. One is self published [142] and actually calls watts a sceptic. The second is from [143] it is an opinion piece from a extreme left wing online magazine [144] this source does not call watts a denier it calls his website a denier site. The third source [145] is also not a peer reviewed source and also calls watts a sceptic. This deliberate misrepresentation sources in a blp needs to be stopped now. Please read through this thread [146] were you will see SA not only continues to say the sources are peer reviewed but that he has not misrepresented them.

The use of selfpublished sources to insert a pejorative in a BLP is highly troubling.

He has also been disruptive on Watts Up With That? and Surfacestations

Creates redirect without discussion [Surfacestations]
Creates redirect without discussion on an article currently up for GA status Watts Up With That? A highly disruptive move.

After The Real Global Warming Disaster has passed GA status SA decides to reassess [147] please note the edit summary, reassessed to fail. A clear indicator of disruptive behaviour and POV pushing mark nutley (talk) 14:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seems a pity to have another section on this - oh well, I suppose everyone must invent their own wheel ~~in order to validate their existence~~. The claims of disrutpion are groundless. At Watts, SA was bold, but didn't edit war over it. What he did was reasonable, but people didn't like it, so it has been undone. There is nothing wrong with that. There is already an ANI thread over this Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive_editing_by_User:ScienceApologist which says much the same.

Surfacestations is an even clearer case of SA doing the right thing. Because, as I've said in the previous section, MN / Cla are being deliberately deceptive by failing to mention that MN demerged it with no discussion only a little while ago. So MN's position, as I understand it, is taht he may make controversial demergers with no discussion, but anyone undoing that demerge is obliged to discuss endlessly before taking any action. The problem with that reasoning is obvious William M. Connolley (talk) 08:28, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To be completely clear, what he did has NOT been undone. Only the 2 redirects have been undone, not the 23 related changes to Anthony Watts (blogger). Q Science (talk) 09:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Q Science, are you saying that the edit weren't undone because they were good edits, or are you saying that they were bad edits and still need to be undone? SA WMC, could you please strike "I suppose everyone must invent their own wheel in order to validate their existence." That's the sort of thing that will turn into a diff in a finding against you. If you strike it, then it probably won't be used that way. Jehochman ^Talk 09:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

SA can't, cos *I* said that (I did sign, but then QS rather rudely interjected, so it isn't obvious) William M. Connolley (talk) 10:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude. I was just responding to the content of that paragraph. [To everyone] What I am saying is that the edits merged 3 article together. When the redirects were removed, the merged content was not removed. As a result, the same data was located in separate articles. (After my post above, there was an edit war to fix this. The old text was restored 4 times by IP editors, no less. ClueBot removed the changes twice.) This is not a matter of good or bad edits, but of claims of whether the disruptive changes were "undone". At the time I posted that, they were not "undone". Q Science (talk) 17:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well with the different threads about the same thing I guess I'll make a comment here, if in the wrong section please feel free to move it to the correct location. MN said he was removing himself from this, at least that is my understanding. If I am correct than why is he starting this thread at all? Second, if I am correct, MN also is the one who started both of these articles so again why is it he that is bringing this complaint about another editor? From what I could see SA did do the redirects stating that he was boldly doing it and was reverted. He didn't undo the reverts so where is the problem? As for him adding more information to an article, other editors have since edited and not one removed what SA added, so again, what's the problem? Something needs to be done about the socking going on since I just saw this which is astounding to me. I've seen a lot of the confirmed socks of this editor at the SPI cases. That some of the long time editors to these articles can't seem to see that these new accounts and IP's that just 'appear' out of the blue are socks are not believable to me at this time anymore, sorry. You can help remove the socking by also reporting the socking or you can hide your head in the sand and make it look like others have a vendetta against, heck, I'm not sure what to call it anymore. I put on the AN/i a request to close the discussion there because of the threads clogging up this page about SA. I think these multiple threads about the same thing in multiple locations also needs to stop. I think they should also be closed/hatted. Suggestions from arbitrators? --CrohnieGal^Talk 12:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am posting here because i am constantly mentioned here. I have withdrawn from CC articles, this is not a CC article. I posted the above findings because SA has deliberately misrepresented sources in a BLP, an error he refuses to admit to as he continues to insist they call a BLP a "Denier" and that they are peer reviewed, none of which is actually true. I added the most recent disruption as nobody else had added it to a proposal. There is no need to hat this, it just needs to be moved to the proposed findings section and left for the arbs to decide on a course of action mark nutley (talk) 13:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per ArbCom's request, I've begun working on FoF on the editors of interest. However, I cannot do it all by myself. I've started working on one regarding SA in user space.[148] Please help. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 13:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arb Votes Analysis

Arb votes on editor sanctions. Summary, please edit as acceptable

Arb votes on editor sanctions
Remedy	Editor acceptance	Newyorkbrad	Kirill	Coren	Risker	Shell	Roger	Pass/Fail
3.3.3 WMC 6 month ban		Oppose	Oppose	Oppose	Oppose	Oppose		Fail
3.3.4 WMC 1 yr CC ban			Support	Oppose		Support
3.3.5 WMC BLP ban			Support	Support		Support
3.3.6 WMC 1 yr restricted			Oppose	Oppose		Oppose
3.3.7 Polargeo admonished			Oppose			Support
3.3.8 TGL 6 month ban			Oppose	Support		Support
3.3.8.1 TGL 1 yr CC ban			Support			Support
3.3.8.2 TGL Indef CC ban			Support	Support		Support
3.3.9 MN 6 month CC ban	Agreed		Oppose			Oppose
3.3.9.1 MN 1 yr CC ban			Support	Support		Support
3.3.9.2 MN Indef. CC ban			Support	Support		Support
3.3.9.3 MN withdraws	Agreed		Support			Oppose
3.3.10 MN BLP ban			Oppose	Support		Support
3.3.15 Lar / JEH admonished		Oppose	Oppose	Oppose	Oppose	Oppose		Fail
3.3.16 2over0 admonished		Oppose	Oppose	Oppose	Oppose	Support
3.3.19 ChrisO 6 month CC ban		Oppose	Oppose	Support	Oppose	Support	Support
3.3.20 ChrisO 1 yr BLP ban		Oppose	Oppose	Support	Oppose	Support	Support

So far it looks like TGL and MN are being judged to have a greater degree of egregious behavior than WMC. Does a comparative analysis of the evidence really support this outcome? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 01:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, not even close. I am so disappointed in ArbCom (so far, I suppose there's a chance for redemption but my confidence in the committee is shaken). In fact I'm disappointed in the whole Wiki. The bullies who have made this topic area a hellish place to edit are getting rewarded for making it unbearable for the rest of us. Good luck getting new editors in here and good luck getting any new uninvolved admins -- great message being sent -- take a stand against blatant and persistent Wiki policy violations and get topic banned or asked to refrain from taking admin actions. What a complete and total waste of time this has all been. Minor4th 02:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not over yet; however, the current votes seem to be carelessly imbalanced in fair standards application. If this continues, many disputes may be put back to the admins and newbie admins ... to be bitten by the bullies. The arbitration process just delayed things. I don't believe it will be a waste of time. Folks have matured in this process, no matter how it turns out. For myself, my own voluntary climate change restriction (since I applied before the General Sanctions, which i did not trust to protect my content contributions) has taken away from content development. I look forward to the ArbCom close, so I may focus time on articles. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 03:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps arbcomm are indeed taking some account of substance after all William M. Connolley (talk) 07:38, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No doubt they have. However, whose accounting the bodies left behind in the wake of climate change progress? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 08:34, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Happily for my biases, I was wrong William M. Connolley (talk) 17:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong about what? WMC, will you agree to a voluntary remedy now to withdraw? Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 20:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong about Kirill, of course William M. Connolley (talk) 22:47, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reconsidering your decisions Kirill. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 15:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A principle for edit warring

I've noticed that often ArbCom seems to adopt the implied principle that editors really should not be reverting, almost at all. This is a view I've appreciated, for all the usual reasons (if anyone can revert a lot, then everyone can revert a lot, and overall the environment becomes dysfunctional). I've also noticed, however, that administrators almost never enforce such a strict rule. This raises the question: should admins be this strict on reverting in a problem area? Currently they aren't.

For one example, I reported User:Ratel to the enforcement board at one point where he had reverted multiple times without explaining (along with other issues).[149] Ratel has now been blocked for using a sockpuppet, and I have little doubt that otherwise he would have been heavily sanctioned in this case. However, the enforcement request was declined for action, and Ratel only received a warning.

I am not sure how familiar all of the arbs are with working in battleground areas, but here is the thing: if you don't revert, and others do, it involves giving up endless hours trying to get enough uninvolved editors to show a consensus for any particular position. Another editor's willingness to revert just once more can mean you now have to continue the discussion for weeks. In theory I think the arbs know this, but generally admins don't act on it. They seem to think that unless you are actively disruptive nothing should happen.

It seems to me that ArbCom should articulate the principle it is applying: editors should not make multiple reverts amid good faith discussion. If you've reverted once you are pushing it, but if you are reverting more than once then you stand to be sanctioned (socks/vandalism excepted, of course). Right now editors are expected just to "get" this, but often they don't, and I wonder if it shouldn't be said. Mackan79 (talk) 21:14, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure this would solve anything. It may well encourage people to make more contentious edits using dodgy sources, knowing that such material could not easily be removed. Something like one edit a day (whether adding or reverting) might be better -- you get one shot, so you need to do your best with good writing and sourcing. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the point is that this is an unwritten (or poorly written) rule that could use clearer articulation. Over the years, reverts have become progressively less acceptable, but the standards are unclear. Guettarda (talk) 21:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thanks. But also the problem I often see is an assumption that a smaller number of good editors can overcome a larger number of bad editors simply by reverting more and then having the wiki-bureaucratic complex come down on their behalf. This may have worked at some point, but I don't think it's a long term solution. The risk is that you will get the opposite: bad editors will revert more (because what do they care about Wikipedia anyway), and then you don't have a clear rule to deal with it. My hope would be that by strongly discouraging multiple reverts (as ArbCom always ends up doing), you force real consensus seeking which may be cumbersome but, optimistically, is more structurally aligned with good editing. Anyway, I'm also just curious what principle ArbCom would present if they presented one. Mackan79 (talk) 21:37, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Surely the existing content policies are good enough? If what you add is well-sourced, relevant, notable, within due weight, etc. then if someone deletes it, that is unlikely to find consensus in sensible discussion (WP:BRD). The problems start when you have people who specifically want to 'level the playing field' either by adding lots of fringe stuff, or by removing well-sourced mainstream material, to make a point. It is easy enough when there's only one or two, as consensus is clearly against them. When you get a whole vociferous horde, it can be difficult to sort the sensible from the activist. When they start to adopt all of the arguments ever used against them ("I'm not a fringe activist, you are", etc) it gets messy. --Nigelj (talk) 21:53, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that "relevance" and "due" are based almost entirely how the info casts the AGW theory and the involved players. All someone has to do is actually edit the area in an NPOV manner to see that. TheGoodLocust (talk) 01:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To properly reflect scientific opinion, you need to have about 50 times more on the consensus version than on diverging opinions, whether counting by competent scientists, published literature, or by competent organisations. We already overrepresent pseudo-sceptical positions. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 04:04, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems, based on my experience, that some editors feel that they are supposed to be ensuring that the "truth" is presented in the CC articles, the truth being what they believe on the topic. Thus, it doesn't matter if the information in question is supported by a reliable source, it gets reverted, then the editor gets told on the article talk page that they don't know what they are talking about, know nothing about the science, and that their proposed addition is "fringe", "psuedo-science", and/or "undue." Revert warring is a symptom, not the core problem, of what is taking place in the CC topic area. The core problem is that a bloc of editors is continuously violating the spirit and letter of WP's policies with the "ends justify the means" goal of keeping the CC articles "on message."

Arbitrators, one thing you will notice about the non-BLP CC articles is that one bloc of editors is constantly engaged in removing and reverting reliably sourced information from them [150], using a variety of rationales, often along the lines of what Stephan said above. The reverts usually begin around 0700 United Kingdom time. You can almost set your watch by it. Cla68 (talk) 04:21, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting example, Cla68, while Pearce as a source is generally good, the statement you added is inaccurate – you put "simplistic" in quotes, but it's a word used by Pearce and not by the subject of the article who you appear to credit with the term. It's also a simplistic reading of Pearce's brief opening note on "main players", and is better examined in light of pp. 28–31 of the book. Oh, and your info was reverted back in by what may be a SciBaby sock, as commonly seems to happen. . dave souza, talk 07:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing, if it's really only about "properly reflecting scientific opinion," then why does this bloc of editors remove and revert so much information from non-science articles, like Watts Up With That? [151] [152] [153] [154]? Cla68 (talk) 04:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a "bloc" now? Please check the edit comments, misspelled as they are. How is [155] removing information? And who said that it is "only" about properly reflecting scientific opinion? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:08, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In what way is "Watts Up With That?" a non-science article? It appears to be a website devoted to putting forward [fringe] views on science. . . dave souza, talk 07:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dave souza brings up an important point in that there is no sharp boundary between "science" and "non-science" articles. The non-science articles often are used as a way to present minority views unimpaired by reference to the majority view. This violates WP:NPOV, which states that even in articles specifically devoted to minority views "the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader may understand how the minority view differs from it." Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It would also perhaps behoove the arbcomm and/or the community to come to some resolution about what to do when BLP concerns conflict with fringe concerns. Sailsbystars (talk) 14:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that a finding on edit warring addresses a larger concern in the CC articles, which is constant civil POV pushing and over- over- over-arguing over settled points. The best example I can cite involves Climate change alarmism and the attempted use of a paper co-authored by WMC, over his protests, to prove that global cooling "alarmism" was a problem in the 1970s. This was a straight-up instance of WP:SYN, and it was settled on AN/I in the context of an action against one of the editors involved, but it still[156] is being argued on the article talk page. Some editors have a "never say die" attitude that complies with the spirit of civility rules while actually undermining settled policies. The lengthy volume of argumentation over these points, a sampling of which we saw earlier on this page, has the effect if not the intent of "wearing down the opposition." That was one of the first things I noticed about the CC pages, months ago. See[157], "too much talking."ScottyBerg (talk) 16:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scotty, this is not the way to respond to new arguments and new evidence (see "GregJackP's inappropriate use of sources" section above). If the new arguments and evidence hasn't already been addressed, calling for the end of discussion is contrary to maintaining a good working atmosphere here. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 18:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is precisely my point. I don't see anything materially "new" in that discussion thread. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:57, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then it shouldn't be difficult to post diffs for the past edits that already refuted the points I and others later made. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Back to the topic, Mackan79 wrote, Another editor's willingness to revert just once more can mean you now have to continue the discussion for weeks. In theory I think the arbs know this, but generally admins don't act on it. All true, and every one of us knows it's all true. Perhaps arbs should have a principle on this ("edit warring" is listed in the "Disruptive editing" principle 12 right now, but that's it). I don't think minor cases of reverting should be in the findings of fact section because we then have Wikipedia dangling the temptation of reverting to editors in emotional situations (where their strong beliefs and what may be hours of previous work is at stake), with admins ignoring the conduct for many months and then ArbCom swooping in at the end and issuing a sanction. Certain admins and editors will then use the findings of fact in the future to disparage these editors. Does anyone disagree with any part of this scenario? In other words, Wikipedia sets up a trap for editors who edit in any contentious area. ArbCom can help Wikipedia avoid entrapping editors by looking the other way on the less egregious reverting (I haven't looked at all the new evidence on that, so I don't know whether the newer Fofs on editor misbehavior already do that.) Other than doing that, and perhaps a separate finding about edit warring, ArbCom can't really do anything and I doubt the community ever will. Maybe the solution is for editors to try like mad to stay out of the most contentious fights, which is a kind of "heckler's veto". Maybe that's the nature of a self-governing wiki. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 18:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ArbCom could be clearer about the principle it applies, at least. In a similar case it presented the following:

Edit-warring

4) Edit-warring, whether by reversion or otherwise, is prohibited; this is so even when the disputed content is clearly problematic, with very limited exceptions. The three-revert rule does not entitle users to revert a page three times each day, nor does it endorse reverting as an editing technique.

Assuming this remains the case it would seem sensible to say it. Mackan79 (talk) 21:08, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. I would add something like Administrators are encouraged to enforce Wikipedia:Edit warring policy. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:44, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about this addition, "Editors who revert or remove reliably sourced content are expected to suggest alternate or compromise wording on the article talk page before making further reverts of the same material. An absence of such attempts at compromise may be considered as evidence of a violation of the spirit of the policy on edit warring even if the letter of the policy is not broken." or something like that. Cla68 (talk) 23:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I personally agree with the old Jimbo edict: if something is unsupported, then don't wait around for discussion, just remove it. In theory compromise should come from everyone, in the sense that someone adding material can just as well come up with a compromise if another editor articulates a reason for removing it. You may have noticed Nigelj suggests the opposite presumption, against adding contentious material, below. I think this is why there generally hasn't been a presumption toward removing or including, simply a principle that you should resolve disagreements through discussion and not through reverting. Mackan79 (talk) 23:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) However, sometimes the issue is that content, even if reliably sourced, has no place in the article. Compromise is often the right answer, but not always. We don't want to tilt things to a direction where people add 2x the amount of content they actually want in the article just so they can compromise their way down to what they actually want. NW (Talk) 23:59, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Mackan79. People who remove or add controversial content repeatedly are expected to discuss their concerns on the article talk page. Otherwise they risk being seen as violating the policy on edit-warring. It's always been that way. I don't see any need to grant artificial and "special" status to adding content, vs. removing it (or vice versa) - that's just going to be relentlessly gamed. MastCell ^Talk 00:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NW, I disagree with you, and perhaps your recent involvement in the topic area is to blame. We don't assign to one group of editors responsibility for ensuring that articles on a topic are weighted a particular way or reflect a particular balance of views. That's not how the wiki works. We're all supposed to work togethter to build these articles. If the resulting article represents compromise wording from many different viewpoints, then the wiki is working. It's just that one bloc of editors, from what I've observed, rarely attempt to suggest alternate or compromise wording when they revert material they disagree with [158] Actually, WMC did propose alternate wording here. It seems they just want it gone completely if they don't agree with it. If you're an editor who has just spent 30 minutes putting together and adding some new, reliably sourced content, it can be very frustrating, and, of course, may lead to increased edit warring. If it is made clear, and enforced, that any editor who reverts sourced information must suggest a compromise on the talk page before they revert again, it will establish that cooperation, compromise, and collaboration is the expected behavior in the CC articles. Cla68 (talk) 00:10, 15 September 2010 (UTC

It's well known that a requirement for compromise encourages each side to stake out increasingly extreme positions -- see e.g., Overton window or argument to moderation. Rather than compromise, we should aim for principled agreement based in policy. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You mean that POV editors will argue from an extreme in order to try to game a compromise which favors their position? It seems to me that if that occurs it would be very easy to see which involved editors are working from an agenda and which ones genuinely want to reach a compromise and get these articles expanded and improved. Cla68 (talk) 00:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Boris, MastCell and Mackan. In any event, the best that can be done here is for ArbCom to encourage enforcement of the policy on edit warring (which would help slightly). Once we see which editors are working from an agenda -- what then? We can see that now. I think the more cunning, diehard editors will game it and the more impatient editors, both agenda-driven and not, will get caught up in not suggesting a compromise. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 03:39, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quite mistaken

I think the opening premise of this discussion, that "often ArbCom seems to adopt the implied principle that editors really should not be reverting, almost at all" is quite mistaken. It's normal to revert disputed edits and I'm aware of no arbitration case in which this has been presented as at all problematic. It's what happens after a dispute is identified that matters. --TS 14:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There certainly has been edit warring and that needs to be addressed. But I think that this is one part of a larger problem of general fractiousness, POV pushing and inability to edit cooperatively in these articles, the "never say die" attitude I mentioned earlier. One concern I have is that clamping down too hard on edit warring will give an edge to editors who want to add questionable sourcing and content. As others have noted, removing text can improve the encyclopedia as much as adding, depending on the circumstances. I can't speak to previous Arbcom practice, however. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Noise and heat

I don't find it helpful that the "usual" disputants are making accusations back and forth at each other. This just adds to noise and heat. It might be useful for arbitrators to ask the disputants to stop mooting proposals, and instead request uninvolved editors to review the situation and add proposals. Jehochman ^Talk 08:48, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is a section up above for "New proposals". I propose that the most recent new proposal be moved up into that section. That would help avoid the "I want to be at the bottom of the page where everyone will notice me" problem.

Re noise and heat: there is a desire to have the last word (of which I'm guilty too). Arbs (clerks?) could help avoid this problem by stepping in and saying "OK, we've heard enough on this issue from the current folk" William M. Connolley (talk) 09:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can't say that I have followed this very closely, but I find it odd that the Proposed Decision talk page has been allowed to be utilized in this manner at all, doubly so that voting is now underway. Why were the usual avenues of Workshop and Evidence pages not sufficient? Tarc (talk) 14:10, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, they were shut down last month. See here. Guettarda (talk) 14:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The best thing anybody can do to lessen the noise is to minimize their own unnecessary interactions on this page. The next best thing is to encourage those who are willing to refactor discussions and to terminate unproductive repetition. I think A Quest For Knowledge has the right idea, formulating proposed findings off-page and coming back to post pointers. But by-and-large I think those who are likely to attract further sanctions in this case are demonstrating the reason why by the way they interact on this page. Food for thought. --TS 14:28, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not so sure that's something the arbcomm wants. See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race_and_intelligence#Lengthy_evidence_and_sub-pages and the discussion on that case's PD. Guettarda (talk) 14:40, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He has been careful to ensure that we're informed of what he's doing, and he has in fact invited collaborators. I think his work has been the better for being performed away from the heat of this page. --TS 14:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since the arbiters have invited new proposals for findings, the implication is that anyone interested in the outcome should spend time preparing such proposals. My own habit is to prepare work up to a point in a text document, though I've not started on this yet, would it be preferable for me to similarly start subpages and invite collaboration? This sounds rather like a fragmented workshop page, developing in various editors' own subpages. Presumably those concerned should be advised of the proposals and invited to contribute their responses, which could lead to a very lengthy process. Is a deadline proposed? . . . . dave souza, talk 15:08, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the request for proposals was by way of a hint that the endless squabbling on this page is unproductive and that actual proposals are preferred. --TS 16:58, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's still going to be a need for any proposed findings to be analysed or contested by those accused, and subjected to wider community scrutiny. Interestingly, I find that AQFK's rather selective proposals include a section for me, though he's not bothered with raising it on my talk page. Presumably the open invitation above means he wants me to participate in editing that proposal and perhaps adding others. Somewhat tedious, guess I'd better do that. . . dave souza, talk 17:15, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I'm not a fan of this whole "the community does the arbitration" idea. Arbitrators are perfectly capable of performing the requisite analysis in private and posting their decision. Arbitration is pursued only when community processes have irretrievably broken down, so getting the community to make a meaningful contribution in arbitration is always an uphill struggle. At best, workshops and the like have a therapeutic effect; at worst they provide a playpen for the parties to hurl rocks at one another while the arbitrators observe and, if appalled enough, issue strong sanctions. --TS 17:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's my opinion too. Asking us to provide for new FoF on the rather narow issue of "who started what edit war", is not what we need. That's why I tried to change the focus by providing the list of previously involved editors, so that one could get a better idea of some of the inherent problems in this area. Some problems are clearly quite universal and cannot be resolved by issuing topic bans. Count Iblis (talk) 18:05, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be safe to say that this arbitration is veering towards the rock hurling type, more than it is cleaving to the therapeutic ideal. --TS 18:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be safe to say that when you wrote this, Tony,

In mid-2009 some people were sanctioned for disruptive editing in the Barack Obama topic area, and it seems that some of them migrated from that area where they couldn't continue their hostilities to climate change where they took up the cudgels again. It might be useful to include a finding on this, because it shows how the behavior of the people in question might apply across several topics and perhaps need broader sanctions.

and then listed me first, making it look like I was sanctioned in mid-2009, and then labeled everyone you listed as engaging in some vague "vendettas", and then neglected to make a detailed case with diffs, much less a proposal (which would have fallen apart regarding me because my behavior here violated nothing), you were in the unproductive mode you colorfully describe. Am I not correct? This page is set up to talk about ArbCom proposals and we've been invited to propose some. If you have a case to make against me or anyone else, make an actual case pointing with diffs to actual behavior in CC articles. Other than doing that, here's a recommendation for you and everyone else on this page:

Don't comment on behavior or even provide evidence unconnected to a concrete proposal that can then be examined -- productively -- in detail.

I think that's a fair enough principle that anyone on this page can follow to keep this page productive, less noisy and less hot, right? If you wanted to bring up two-year-old sanctions, avoiding vague, disparaging comments on behavior in the CC topic area would have been the way to do it, not producing a list of editors and attaching vague aspersions to them. I think when we get down to specific diffs and evidence, discussion tends toward rational discourse and tends to be less incendiary. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 19:22, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

John, the reason I listed the first three usernames in the order Noroton (your other username), Thegoodlocust and ScJessey is because on the sanctions log I was transcribing from those names appear at positions 11, 13 and 31 respectively in the list of sanctions for disruption. Later in preparing the comment for posting I recalled the banned editors, ChildofMidnight and Grundle2600 and added them to the end of my list. All of you were sanctioned for disruptive editing and all of you subsequently migrated to the climate change topic area, and it is painfully noticeable that a degree of animus has been imported to this topic area thereby. I have proposed that the committee might want to make that a finding. One username had to appear first and that happened to be Noroton, your old username, simply because it was earlier on the list than the others. --TS 04:08, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In substance, you were hurling rocks with largely moderate-toned language. If an editor has repeated on the climate-change pages some specific behavior from past blocks or ArbCom sanctions or other sanctions, it's constructive to point that out to show a long-term, ongoing problem. Vaguely stating that a bunch of editors had a problem a year or two ago is not going to help ArbCom with anything, and the high-heat to low-light ratio should be obvious. But that fact is obscured by your declining to offer a proposal or even a diff. You said "animus has been imported to this topic area" but you give no proof of it at all. I know of only one case of it, and even there it's a very minor sidelight, and it was already brought up (with diffs). I'll just point out that disparaging other editors while refusing to provide proof is one of the behaviors at the heart of WP:NPA, and that it's being done on an ArbCom page doesn't excuse it. Your response is evasive and repeats the behavior I complained about. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 12:04, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I made an observation based on a sanctions log, which I cited. The personal animosity resulting is, and was at that time, already the subject of proposed finding 19. Please moderate your tone. --TS 12:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your observation included a listing of several editors, not just the editor mentioned in Finding 19. "Vendettas" was plural. Except for one editor, you cited nothing to back up the idea that any other editors had "animus [that] has been imported to this topic area". Please withdraw the allegation, refactor your comments and we can drop this. (Alternately, provide evidence against other editors.) -- JohnWBarber (talk) 16:59, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How about we try to compose some FoFs to highlight more general principles, causes, or sources of conflict, but more incisive than the current Locus of dispute and Nature and extent of dispute? --Nigelj (talk) 19:45, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. Count Iblis (talk) 20:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could we all agree that the current situation is unpleasant, and think about ways to make it better for everyone involved, regardless of their POV? Basic principles:
- Don't make any content edits that you know would upset somebody else (rightly or wrongly). Instead, use the article talk page to seek consensus. If the talk page reaches deadlock, as frequently happens, use WP:3O or WP:RFC at an early stage to get input from the uninvolved.
- Respect the result of any such outside input, whether or not you agree with it.
- Maintain high standards of civility. Do not cast aspersions at other editors. Do not pretend to know other editors' motives.
- Do not request sanctions against any other editors. Instead, if you are concerned about their editing, find an uninvolved party, state your concerns, and let the uninvolved investigate the matter. If there is truly a problem, they will see it and file a request for enforcement. Tit for tat enforcement requests are extremely counter-productive.
- Keep all remarks brief and to the point.
- Let bygones by bygones. </endSermon> Jehochman ^Talk 20:25, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Simpler version; Wait a bit - you or your idealogical opponent may be blocked, restricted or otherwise sanctioned, so there is no point in wasting effort edit warring now. If neither you nor your idealogical opponent is ultimately blocked, restricted or otherwise sanctioned there is a good chance it will never happen... so you really ought to practice that collegiate editing environment thing that crops up every so often, as something of a "Good Idea". LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:43, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to see something that distinguishes between the addition of badly-sourced, fringe or undue-weight material and it's removal. Of course the person adding will want to argue that it's well-sourced, everybody in his rifle-club agrees with it, etc, but responsibility should fall heavily on anyone who re-adds something to an article after it's been so challenged. Does that hit a nail squarely, and is there a way to word something like that in proposed Arb-decision language? --Nigelj (talk) 22:07, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, that proposal would just tilt the game into being one of altering the articles by careful removal of text rather than addition. What I'm proposing would be a sort of beefed-up WP:BRD maybe. --Nigelj (talk) 22:55, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Possible Sock investigation

Hi, I have found two IP's that appear to be the same person participating at Anthony Watts (blogger). Since they may be socks of one of the parties to this case, I am reporting them here, as suggested by the SPI submission system. If this is the wrong place, please move this request.

Users:

talk page diffs:

[159]
[160]

Nearly identical contrib history. Post nearly identical unsigned comment to talk page then perform the same edit to article. The edit itself is not necessarily problematic, but the socking certainly is, as it evaded the 1RR rule on the page. Sailsbystars (talk) 15:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, geolocate to very differnt areas (different countries - Fullerton, CA vs Ontario, Canada), different ISP's. Proxies maybe? Ravensfire (talk) 17:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Canadian one is for blackberries I believe. Anonymous IP vandals aren't a huge problem though - obvious socks screwing around on ArbCom pages are. Of course, Ratel was an obvious sock, but if any of us had reported him then we'd likely have been blocked for "disruption" or something. Oh well, at least we have the high road. TheGoodLocust (talk) 02:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ratel was an obvious sock - how so? I certainly had no idea (or even a suspicion, and from what i've seen of the case, not even a chance to notice/suspect). But to preempt: If people sock (against rules) - then good riddance - and Goodbye! --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 03:26, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He is an extremely shrill and ideological wikilawyer who thinks he is saving the world. Rules don't apply to people like that. WP:BEANS for the rest (not that it matters).TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

TGL, remind me again, which Wikipedia articles are you currently working on or have been working on, in let's say, the last six months? Any at all? Viriditas (talk) 04:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So is this the 8th or 10th time you've asked me that Viriditas? I've already asked you to quit harassing me so I won't bother to repeat myself. I'd ask an admin to ban you but you share and tirelessly promote the House POV so that'd be a pointless gesture too. So I guess I'll wait for the next exciting installment of baiting "civil" POV pushers and cowardly admins. TheGoodLocust (talk) 04:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ratel was fairly open about being an agenda-driven editor [161] [162] [163], yet was blocked not for that, but for operating a sock puppet. I think some editors feel that if his POV was the same as Scibaby's rather than WMC's bloc, he would have been blocked much sooner. Is this an incorrect assumption? Cla68 (talk) 04:54, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the answer to your question as far as other editors go, and I don't know who Ratel is, but I think your faction names are pretty catchy: "Scibaby bloc" and "WMC bloc". Until this case, I did not realize there was a favored House POV. Now I know I'm on the losing side. Minor4th 06:04, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no house POV and there is no losing side. The fact is, one POV cannot exist without the other. You can't know white without black, love without hate, peace without war. The point is not to separate or highlight one over the other, but to honestly investigate their relationship and interconnection. Viriditas (talk) 09:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The "house POV" of any serious, respectable reference work is going to be that human activity contributes to climate change. (That's the "house POV" of Britannica, for example). Just as the "house POV" is that HIV causes AIDS, that tobacco smoke causes cancer, that vaccines do not cause autism, and that the attacks of 9/11 were staged by Al-Qaeda rather than the U.S. or Israeli governments. I use scare quotes around "house POV", because this isn't really an editorial POV. Any honest effort to represent the current state of human knowledge will end up "favoring" these perspectives, because they are heavily favored in reputable sources.

In each case, there are significant dissenting points of view which deserve mention, but serious, respectable reference works are generally expected to prioritize mainstream thought and knowledge, rather than to provide an uncritical echo chamber for minoritarian talking points. To people who are personally invested in a particular minoritarian viewpoint, that can look like a "house POV", I suppose. But it's actually part and parcel of creating a serious reference work, as opposed to a search engine. MastCell ^Talk 16:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That wasn't the House POV I was referring to - just as aspect of it. Some of the people in this thread have mimicked the phrase that "reality has a liberal bias" - that is the real House POV and it is a very subversive prejudice since those who have it are incapable of recognizing it in themselves. As for the rest of your post, you continue trying to equate global warming skepticism with various silly points of view - that isn't an argument; that's sophistry. There has been no honest effort to write these articles; there has simply been long-term agenda-driven editing and soapboxing designed to promote a very specific point of view of it - and repetitive one-sided rhetoric over a long period of time is indeed effective (just look at North Korea).TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well put, MastCell. I have tried to make a similar point here before, and you have expressed it very well. --Nigelj (talk) 19:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Remember MastCell, that very few of the editors here complaining about WMC's bloc's behavior are trying to promote a minority POV. It sometimes might seem that way because many of our edits (but not all) seem to be only for one side, but the reason is that WMC's bloc only edits for one agenda and refuses to allow other views, no matter how reliably sourced. Also, you cannot say that all criticisms of AGW science are minority, there is a wide variety of acceptance, including within the science community, of different aspects of the AGW debate. WMC's bloc, however, accepts no alternate viewpoints of any of it. Remember also, that most of the editors who are here complaining about WMC's bloc's behavior, including me, were drawn to the topic because we noticed repeated violations of WP's policies, such as BLP, NPA, and NPOV that were going unaddressed. In fact, when I was looking at talk page histories, MastCell, I noticed some personal attacks being made in content discussions in which you were involved, but you failed to take any action to tell the perpetrator not to do that. That's at the heart of this. It seems that editors who promote WMC's POV (like Ratel) get a free ride with WP's policies (other than socking), while others do not. WMC's POV is not the "mainstream" view of AGW science. WMC promotes RealClimate's agenda, whose opinion on climate science is at one extreme of the AGW debate, as the content of and the reaction to the Climategate emails shows. In sum, the matter here is behavior, not science. Cla68 (talk) 23:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Long time observer of the climate change articles. Gota disagree with you on WMC's POV....from my perspective and training(POV?) WMC's view on climate science is within the mainstream, and he likely deserves several barnstars....What for? for his consistant and determined willingness to keep sticking his neck out in defense of the scientific mainstream. Course only WMC knows what motivates him but I its something as simplistic as a realcimate agenda, whatever that is. --Snowman frosty (talk) 23:17, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You would not believe how tired I am of hearing about William and RealClimate, so please excuse me for not continuing a conversation which once again threatens to be consumed by those two topics. Nor do I really feel like defending myself for all of the times I could have lectured someone, but failed to do so. I disagree with you about the "extreme" nature of RealClimate's viewpoint (for that matter, so does Nature), but it's not really worth discussing, particularly not here. MastCell ^Talk 00:22, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

MastCell, I don't know if RealClimate's advocacy regarding certain aspects of the AGW debate is right or wrong. What I do know is that we shouldn't have editors here trying to support that blog's agenda in Wikipedia. We know who they are, because the evidence page and this PD talk page contains evidence of these editors trying to use RealClimate as a source, including trying to use it to add pejorative information in BLPs. That's why this case is not about science. It's about advocacy and the behavior that accompanies it, behavior that violates numerous WP policies and prevents the CC articles from being a place where all interested editors can cooperate, collaborate, and compromise in building some articles. Cla68 (talk) 01:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cla, by that same account, most people here are Nature, Science and GRL advocates! Exhibiting/editing within the same view as some blog or journal that just happens to be reasonably within the mainstream, is not advocacy. [do i agree with everything presented on RC? Hmmm - possibly... but that doesn't come from reading RC (which i actually do significantly less than WuWT or CA] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 03:01, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 197: / Line 197: @@
 ::: As someone familiar with that page, I do not see the problems that SandyGeorgia does.  If she believes that better sources are available then she should provide them.  I have never seen another editor present the same level of hostility to a subject than she does to Hugo Chavez.  [[User:The Four Deuces|TFD]] ([[User talk:The Four Deuces|talk]]) 21:31, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
+:::: I have presented [[User:SandyGeorgia/Chavez sources|reliable mainstream sources in spades]], but you characterize [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez&oldid=346249371#OAS_and_European_Parliament_on_human_rights_in_Venezuela the OAS, European Parliament, Wall Street Journal, Economist, CNN, the New York Times and UPI.com] (and *many* others) as a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez&diff=346249371&oldid=346249113 fringe, TeaParty view that SandyGeorgia is presenting,] and say [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez&diff=342357942&oldid=342357224 I have never presented mainstream sources and my sources are "opeds"] (a charge repeated by [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Villa_del_Cine&curid=28339106&diff=384813390&oldid=384813030 unsuspecting new editors] who end up blocked)-- hence, the similarities in battleground, and collective blocs of editors using mere numbers to overrule Wiki sourcing policies who are involved in these cases. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:16, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 :If there are diffs showing the same kind of behavior on non-CC pages as can be found on CC pages, the diffs would help show a general pattern that I think ArbCom would be very interested in. The behavior Roger Davies has said (elsewhere on this page) that he's interested in seeing editors provide evidence of follows, generally, this pattern on the PD page: