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March 20

proposal of time in metric system

i propose to change time in sextant system to metric system. how and where i can publish my proposal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.241.92.158 (talk) 00:02, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

There are many free services which will allow you to publish a blog or other free website. Blogger and Blogspot are good free blog sites that many people use. You could publish your information there. Be aware, however, that your idea may not be original or unique. See the Wikipedia article metric time and more relevently decimal time (which is probably what you mean by "metric time") for examples of such systems which have been implemented, to varying degrees of success, in the past. --Jayron32 00:07, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

As a practical matter, what would be the motivation to change? Doesn't most everyone use the current system? The point of the metric system was to dispense with countless local systems and come up with a single standard. Since there's already a single standard for time (isn't there?) then I don't see what reason there would be to change it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:12, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The reason decimal time never caught on is that for a lot of standard "in your head" or "on paper" sorts of equations, it turns out not to be very useful when compared with our standard base-60 time. Computers somewhat get rid of that, but they also get rid of any real need for decimal time (whose main benefit seems to be the ability to convert between minutes, seconds, etc. much faster... which of course a computer can do without breaking a sweat). --Mr.98 (talk) 22:10, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Many moons ago I worked for a local authority here in the UK, and my time was kept using metric time. This was in the days before computers were widely available and it did my head in just trying to work out whether I was due any overtime or time in lieu! --TammyMoet (talk) 16:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

There are exceptions. I used to use a scientific instrument that used decimal seconds. Typing in 90 gave you 9/10 of a minute, not 90 seconds like my microwave would do. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 17:13, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I expect it took you only 0.03333333333333333333333333333333333... hours to learn the system. Dbfirs 20:18, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Decimal time is still fairly widely used, so far as I'm aware, in punch-clocks and other devices that end up dealing with wages. My understanding is that it's used to facilitate easier summing for paychecks (8.25 hours x $12.62 is easier than 8 hours, 15 minutes times $12.62). Matt Deres (talk) 13:21, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Internet song generators

Does there exist any program on the internet, which can be used for free without having to be downloaded, into which one can input a set of lyrics and/or a melody and have it automatically generate a song?--99.251.211.17 (talk) 00:35, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

[1] comes to mind, but its definitely not what you're looking for. Schyler (one language) 02:58, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean by "generate a song"? If you have already written the the lyrics and melody, then you already have a song. If you mean you want it to generate a synthetic performance of the song, then it could be done, but speech synthesis isn't really up to the job (although it have improved enormously over the last few years, so it may be up to the job in a few more years). You can get a computer to play the melody for you, though, with any suitable MIDI software (I don't know anything in particular to recommend, but there must of loads of suitable software available to download that will do the job). --Tango (talk) 03:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

If Tango has it right, then I would recommend Finale (software) or any of its cheaper counterparts. Schyler (one language) 13:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Tango is correct, I did indeed mean to ask for a program that could generate a synthetic performance.--99.251.211.17 (talk) 14:51, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

There might be useful references in : Algorithmic composition 83.134.138.77 (talk) 17:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I have used Finale for years; they make a good product. Schyler (one language) 20:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Speech/singing synthesis is getting better and better, see, for example, Vocaloid. However, this software is not free nor on the web. Also, it does not fully synthesize the singing voice "from scratch", rather uses a large database of recordings of humans singing. As for the original question, there are things like Microsoft Songsmith, which I had not heard of before. From the description, it sounds fairly close to what you're asking for (except of course not free nor on the web, and it doesn't do the singing part). Pfly (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Utau is a freeware alternative to Vocaloid. — Shinhan < talk > 12:55, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Topic: Mythology / Symbology

Does anyone know the relevance of the images printed on this coin?

Front: (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/coinfront.png/)

Back: (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/coinback.png/)

Thank you kindly, -- 221.98.87.23 (talk) 07:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The front side picture is really bad, do you have a better one ? StuRat (talk) 09:01, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The back of the coin could look like Charon inviting dead souls into his ferry so they can cross the river Styx and enter the Netherworld. As far as I can see the front looks like a skull? In ancient Greece coins were placed on the eyes or in the mouth of the dead so they could pay Charon the fare of crossing the river. I am not sure whether that is a genuine coin though, as as far as I understand it, regular coins were used, not custom made "Charon"-coins, but I am no specialist on this, so I could be wrong. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

That's definitely Charon, we even have the exact same image in the danake article. The danake was one of the coins typically used as "Charon's obol" - which is a surprisingly enormous article itself. Here is the image. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:30, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Having seen the remake of Clash of the Titans, it revived a question I've had when the subject comes up: What could Charon possibly do with those coins? Is there a monetary system in the Underworld? Would he sometimes go topside and hang out at the local Greek pub? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:59, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

It may have to do with one of the ways in which the practitioners of this rite perceived the nature of sacrifice. The special coins cost the sacrificer (the family or friend of the dead person, or the dead person themself if he/she had obtained them in anticipation) some significant value and effort to obtain. Symbolically offering them to the relevant psychopomp or other power - who presumably had no actual physical need or use for them - may have denoted the sacrificer's depth of commitment to the belief system involved, and such effort and commitment itself can further shape the sacrificer's attitudes. In more general sacrificial contexts, this works whether the sacrificed item is of purely monetary value, which has had to be committed to the purpose, something of more personal value, like a treasured possession, or something the sacrificer would themselves like to enjoy, like a glass of wine used as a libation. Put simply: it isn't the receiving that's important, it's the giving.

I can't say for sure that this is the way that payers of the Ferryman's Fee always perceived the matter, but this interpretation of sacrifice was taught to me by a (present-day) devotee of Minerva, so seemingly has classical foundations, and (ObPersonal) is also predominant in non-Classical forms of neo-Paganism such as Wicca. Note that it is quite distinct from the notion, deriving from ancient Judaic theology and elsewhere, that the blood - symbolising the life - of some living thing is in itself of value or desire to a sacrificed-to deity or power. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.110.155 (talk) 21:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Before Bugs suggests it: Perhaps he takes them to a Penny Arcadia. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

This is evidently a pair of stills from a movie (one of the Batman movies, maybe? - I say that because two-face is usually depicted tossing a coin like this). we don't need to worry about it being real. the second image is Charon, and the first image (I'm fairly certain) is a representation of Janus. --Ludwigs2 22:16, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Can someone with a peanut/tree nut allergy eat foods that "may contain traces of nuts or peanuts"?

It seems like every food in existence has this on the label or words to that effect so what is safe for people with these allergies to eat? --112.213.142.13 (talk) 15:56, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

That is a personal medical matter and thus a question for a doctor who knows the person with the allergy. It is not a question for the Ref Desk. Bielle (talk) 16:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree fully. I'm sure there's general information here on wikipedia about allergies, but allergic reactions to anything can vary from mild to life-threatening. If there is genuine concern, consult a doctor. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:10, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not a personal question, I am speaking generally do these foods usually get nuts in them or is the legal disclaimer just to cover the tiniest possibility that a fragment of nut could fall in one of the products? --112.213.142.13 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:11, 20 March 2011 (UTC).

It's possible it's an FDA regulation. Have you searched Google on this subject? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:13, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

In many cases those foods, although they don't intentionally contain nuts, may have been processed using machines that previously were used to process foods that contain nuts. Basically any food that is processed in a plant where nuts are used is likely to contain this warning, which is necessary because some people have nut allergies so severe that even tiny traces can cause them serious problems. Looie496 (talk) 17:52, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't sound to me like a request for advice, but Bielle is right that you should ask a doctor if you are wondering about any particular person's safety. See Peanut allergy for some descriptions of what can cause reactions. Apparently there is controversy about whether trace exposures can cause reactions. Staecker (talk) 16:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Check out the links from the FSA (Food Standards Agency) for the UK perspective on labelling (http://www.food.gov.uk/foodindustry/guidancenotes/labelregsguidance/maycontainguide). There is guidance for small business (here's the PDF link... http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/publication/allergyjamjar0109.pdf) which may be an interesting read. In terms of what peanut-sufferers can eat...well to be honest it shows up on a lot of things but there's a huge amount that it doesn't (hard to say what without going into my cupboards but most fresh/unprocessed food for example). ny156uk (talk) 17:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Worse is the food label that opaquely says, "This product was manufactured using equipment that also handles tree nuts". Here's an excuse from one company saying they can't clean the equipment afterwards. This doesn't help nut allergy sufferers much. Another offender is retailers like Starbucks which have an unhelpful notice on their food case saying "Some of the stuff in this food case contains nuts, but we're not going tell you which items", which smacks of an attempt to avoid legal liability rather than an attempt to, you know, help their customers not die. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:44, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, my experience is that that specific sort of warning is really very helpful, since it quantifies the risk (shared equipment, not just shared building. No nuts deliberately included) and specifies that it was tree nuts, not ground nuts. It would be even better if they said which tree nuts, although those with an allergy to any tree nut will probably still avoid it. I certainly wouldn't trust them to clean the equipment between products, given that a tiny trace can be enough. Again, if anything among the selection at Starbucks contains peanuts, everything (including sometimes the air) is rendered unsafe for a peanut allergy sufferer. It doesn't matter which thing contains it: it's all unsafe. It would be helpful to say which allergens, but that's why you ask the people behind the counter. The best would be something like the packaging which says: "Ingredients: no nuts. Factory: no nuts. Supply chain: cannot guarantee no nuts", except specifying which nuts. 212.183.128.41 (talk) 20:42, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

It varies. I've personally known someone with a severe allergy to have a moderately severe (trouble breathing, itching, vomiting, but throat didn't actually completely close) reaction to a cereal with a 'may contain' warning (a new addition, as they had recently switched to a new plant that was shared with a nutty cereal and at the time we weren't on a mailing list for this sort of thing), and each reaction can be different: you can't confidently predict how severe any given reaction will be. But an individual might, with some research or experience, decide that some of these warnings don't pose a genuine threat to them. For example, a generic 'may contain traces of nuts' warning when they definitely know that everything made in the entire factory involves only hazelnuts, and that this is not a problem for them. But this is a decision that can only be made individually: the allergy sufferer must know that the warning was there. Conversely, chocolate covered raisins (for example) are basically never going to be safe for a peanut allergy suffer, whether or not they carry a warning! So, it varies. 212.183.128.41 (talk) 20:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Irrevocable Life Insurance Trust

Does the trustee of an ILIT have any annual reporting requirements to the IRS? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.163.28 (talk) 16:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Omar Bradley

How did the white American Omar Bradley come to have an Arabic prénom? 83.70.250.202 (talk) 17:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps from Omar (Bible)? DuncanHill (talk) 17:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

According to his autobiography, A General's Life, he was named after Omar D. Gray, a local newspaper editor at the place he was born. Looie496 (talk) 17:58, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Still begs the question. Why was Omar D. Gray (1869-1935) of Sturgeon, Missouri given that name? Nothing in his bio provides an answer. Edison (talk) 18:45, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Omar is a Biblical name, as noted by Duncan. It's not inherently an Arabic name. The first "Omar" that came to mind when I saw this question was the ballplayer Omar Vizquel, who's Hispanic, obviously. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:37, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

1989-1991 Belgian Motocross Grand Prix Race Results

Looking for the full race results. I'm trying to identify riders in photos I took at one of these races. I'm fairly confident I was at the 1991 race but it could have been any of the years above. I arrived in Germany late 1987 and left in Feb 1992. If at all possible, name, plate number, and make of motorcycle would be great. But I may be able to determine all that with just the name of the finishers.

Thanks, David — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flintlock42003 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Space shuttle launch; any discarded stuff left?

Hello! I was wondering... when NASA's space shuttle is launched, there's... well, a lot of flames. What equipment on the ground (there's always some technical-looking stuff very close by) has to be thrown away as a result of these vast amounts of flame and heat? Thank you in advance! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.213.11.105 (talk) 22:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to ask my resident expert on the subject to comment, but one thing worth noting is that there is a large trench underneath the launch pad, whose purpose is dissipate the exhaust from the initial launch. That trench actually splits the halves of an artificially-built hill, which they had to do due to the high water table in that area. Or so they told us on the shuttle tour some years ago. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:07, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not really sure. I think they do have to repair the pad after each launch. I would think that anything that is close enough to be damaged would not be that close unless it had to be. One thing though, most photos of the Shuttle launch are taken with a telephoto lens from a long way away, which "compresses" the images along the line of sight, so objects along the line of sight are not as close together as they appear. You might get a better answer in the Science area. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Veteran space photographer Ralph Morse destroyed about half a dozen cameras capturing the first space shuttle launch in 1981...the violent launch sent them flying, and the cameras returned in pieces,.. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:24, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Launch Plan for a Human Services Organization

Define a launch plan for a human services organization.

Is this a homework question? If so, we can't help you: it's against our policy. --Tango (talk) 23:56, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't even understand the question!--85.211.227.56 (talk) 07:16, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Well there is no question, only an instruction, which is what makes it smell of homework.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:44, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

March 21

Way too many models

Why do so many companies release way too many models in there lineup. I'm not even talking about a specific industry, everything from car companies to electronics companies often release so many models in the same class/category. Wouldn't it cost much less to focus on exceptionally well designed models that are very widely distributed? I imagine this would also vastly improve customer support, resalebability, fame/popularity/recognisibility, and so on. Despite all the alleged shorcomings of their devices, Apple Computer seems to have nailed this strategy down perfectly. They don't really have any competing products or redundancies. Other highly successfull companies like Sony, HP, and HTC seem to always have a massive ambiguous list of models that serve more or less the same niche, never become iconic, and aren't known well known or supported for very long. What's the advantage of this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roberto75780 (talk • contribs) 05:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Halo effect implies that not all of, say, Apple's products are exceptional, but the great trick is to achieve one or two exceptional, famous, widely-loved products so that the other products can bask in the glow. This sounds like a hopelessly optimistic thing to declare as a goal, and I expect that all major companies are hoping to do it with whatever their flagship product is, but they can't. You might also ask "why do so many bands release so many stodgy, similar-sounding tracks instead of concentrating on creating a hit?" 81.131.35.68 (talk) 06:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I can think two ways this can happen:

1) Due to merging companies. For example, General Motors was created by merging several different car and truck companies together, each of which had their own product line. This led to redundancy in models, but eliminating any of them might lose customers who remained loyal to that model.

2) For short-term benefits. While having too many models is bad in the long run, leading to higher costs and decreased brand recognition, in the short term it may increase sales, as people want to try out something "new". General Motors's Saturn division is an example of this.

So then, how can they get rid of all their redundant models ? One way is to discontinue models which are no longer profitable. (If the name of the model has value, while the product does not, the name can be transferred to a more successful product with a name that's less well-known.) Another approach is to make a single product but sell it as more than one model. In some cases this might involve minor cosmetic changes between them. The worst option seems to be to wait until bankruptcy, then eliminate a large number of models all at once. StuRat (talk) 07:15, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Offering a wide choice of models is a way of entering a competitive market at multiple price/performance levels, a way of sounding buyers' preferences, and is usually done using many common parts. It allows different product images to be promoted for the same underlying product, so-called "badge engineering", see the article Brand#Branding approaches. Individual models may be restricted to particular sales areas and price structures. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing for one single model per company, but the question was about companies which have redundant models. StuRat (talk) 10:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Planned obsolescence may play a part. In my experience, video equipment is one of the worst for that, where the EX690 model doesn't even have dust on it when the EX691 comes out. There's no real difference between them, so retailers can sell both at the same, with the EX691 marked up for the consumers who want the "cutting edge". Our article on product binning is a bit narrow; the process occurs in several industries and also results in multiple models on the same floor. Matt Deres (talk) 13:41, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

It is due to Product differentiation. By making a few cheap superficial changes you can charge different prices and appeal to different sectors of the market. 92.15.25.108 (talk) 14:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

You say that Apple has "Nailed" the strategy you suggest, of focusing in on a small number of products. I think that's more branding than anything else. For instance, Apple may be focusing on the "iPod", but actually there are actually a lot of iPods :

2gb iPod Shuffle (In Five colors)
8gb iPod Nano (In Seven Colors)
16GB iPod Nano (In Seven Colors)
8GB iPod Touch
32GB iPod Touch
64GB iPod Touch
160GB iPod Classic (In Two Colors)

And that's just the current models!

You want a laptop computer? Apple has you covered :

MacBook 2.4GHz : 250GB
MacBook Pro 13-inch: 2.3 GHz
MacBook Pro 13-inch: 2.7 GHz
MacBook Pro 15-inch: 2.0 GHz
MacBook Pro 15-inch: 2.2 GHz 
MacBook Pro 17-inch: 2.2 GHz 
MacBook Pro 17-inch: 2.3 GHz 
MacBook Air 11-inch : 64GB
MacBook Air 11-inch : 128GB
MacBook Air 13-Inch : 128GB
MacBook Air 13-Inch : 256GB

Sure, they're all called "MacBook", so you might not think that Apple has "too many products in their lineup", but it's really just a carefully crafted illusion. If Apple had given each one of these products their own name, and a slightly different style of case decorations, you'd think of them as separate products, now you think of them as 'versions' of the same product.

It's all a marketing illusion. Marketing is something that Apple is very good at. (Since Steve Jobs returned to the company.) APL (talk) 15:04, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Steve Jobs' return is key - to have this discipline you need a strong lead who can over-ride entrenched departmental support for the products that need to be eliminated. Internal lobbying to keep products can be very powerful and prevent weak CEOs from killing products they really should kill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.106.4 (talk) 18:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

But what I'm saying is that it's at least as much about intentionally branding your products all the same. They've got eleven different laptops available right now and seven different mp3 players, it would have been easy to give them all different names and different visual styles. That wouldn't cost them anything.

They could have gone with the illusion of a "too many models" portfolio like the question-asker was complaining about without changing the products they sell.

I don't know enough marketing to know why this is a good idea or a bad one, but it sure seems to work for them.APL (talk) 00:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

If the model name actually describes the difference between them, that's fine. I certainly know the difference between an 11-inch screen and a 13-inch or 64Gb and 128. However, I have no idea what is different between a MacBook "Air" and "Pro", so that model designation isn't as useful to the consumer. If we switch to cars, then the difference between a coupe and sedan is obvious, as is 2WD versus 4WD, so putting those in model names makes more sense than random numbers and letters. StuRat (talk) 03:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Not that I'm an Apple fan but Air refers to light models, Pro to advanced heavier models. What's the difference between a coupe and sedan and how am I expected to know? Nil Einne (talk) 09:53, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

You can be expected to know because those terms are standardized. When Toyota and Ford use the word "coupé", they both use it roughly the same way. "Pro" is ill-defined; sometimes it means "best", but not if another version is called "premium", for example - basically, it's marketing speak. "Air" is meaningless without context - why wouldn't they call it "light" or, ugh, "lite", which is a companion term to "pro" I've seen quite a few times? If you wanted to manufacture laptops and call the heavy one "Air" and the flimsy one "Pro" (lighter is always better, right?) it would be just as meaningful as what Apple's doing. But if you built a full-size station wagon and called it a "coupe", people wouldn't just be confused, you would be "wrong". Matt Deres (talk) 14:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the differences are pretty straightforward — if you actually look at any Apple product literature (or just go to a store) it is pretty clear. I mean, my parents know the essential difference at this point, and they aren't techy at all. All it takes is one person saying, "oh, the Airs are really light." I think the fact that "Pro" indicates "premium with more stuff" is pretty clear even if you don't know what are in them.

That's the level of information they are trying to convey, not specific technical data. It's for a different audience of consumer than the sort of person who wants to wade through technical specs. The essential strategy here is your consumer will say, "oh, I want a really light laptop" or "I don't care about lightness, but I don't think I need the top of the line features" or "I want the biggest, baddest laptop I can get," and once you've made that big, general distinction, your choices come down to how much more money you want to spend. It's a clever (and I think clearly proven successful) approach to selling computers to people who don't want to spend an hour researching graphics cards and bus speeds and things like that. From the consumer side of things there are essentially two choices to make, total: which broad category do you want, and then what level of features do you want. It's a lot easier for the casual consumer than wading through ten screens of customizations. My father loves his MacBook Pro because it took him about ten minutes to figure out which one he wanted and now he never has to worry about the technical stuff again. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:40, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point. These terms are only standardised over time. And cars have existed a lot longer then laptops. It's not hardwired into our brains what coupé and sedan mean and these terms only mean what they mean because people have used them in that way for a long time. And as I'm sure makes Trovatore happy, there's no standardisation committee who decide what car related terms mean(Er maybe I was wrong about the last point but anyway the main point remains.) There's no reason why 50 years from now if cars go the way of the dodo but for some reason laptops remain and Steve Jobs succeeds in taking over the world everyone will know what a Pro and Air laptop is but no one will any idea what a coupé and sedan is and if suddenly someone starts making cars again (perhaps we come up with a magic solution for global warming) and they reverse the terms or use them in different ways few will bat an eyelid. Incidentally, it's obviously not true that lighter is always better. If you prefer lightness it's better in that way but even such a person will acknowledge when the heavier laptops have better features. More to the point, even if you can argue Pro makes sense for light laptops, air for heavy feature laden laptops doesn't make sense in any way so if you have light reduced featured laptops and heavy more featured laptops and you want to use the terms 'air' and 'pro' I think most people with a decent command of English even without any experience with computers will make the same decision. In fact looking at the history of the terms coupé and sedan and the meaning nowadays it seems possible it would make more sense if those terms were used in a reverse fashion nowadays. Nil Einne (talk) 01:55, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Trivia: colloquialism

What is the source (or inspiration) of the term "milking the clock"? Usmale48 (talk) 15:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC) JTC,JR

The OED doesn't have an entry for milk the clock specifically, but it does give as one definition of milk "a. trans. To deprive or defraud (a person, etc.) (†from, of money, etc.), esp. by taking regular amounts over a period of time; to exploit, turn into a source of (freq. illicit) profit, advantage, information, etc.; to extract all possible advantage from. Also (in extended use): to drain away the contents from (in figurative contexts)," with examples going back to 1531. It also gives "b. intr. to milk dry: to drain completely of resources; to exploit exhaustively," with cited examples back to 1849, and "To elicit (something), to draw out; to extract or extort (money, advantage, information, etc.) from a person, business, situation, etc. Also: to drain away, out of from a person," examples to 1628. So it appears that the idea behind the term is of long standing. Thus far I have not found anything definitive for the actual phrase. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 16:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The earliest citation I can personally find is from the New York Times Jan. 20, 1985 "KNICKS DEFEAT HAWKS.(Sports Desk)." The quote is: "We wanted to milk the clock down to about eight or nine seconds, said the Knick coach, then bring it to the side and try to get it to Tucker. If not then to Cummings or Orr. But they were playing both of them real tough. It was real big shot for Darrell." 1985 is the outer edge of the database's coverage, however, so I'm quite confident there are older examples out there. The NYT website yields a possible hit for Dec. 22, 1974: "Raiders' Frustration Ended," but it's not freely available and I'm not motivated enough to go load a spool of microfilm right this moment. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 16:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Posting this question at the Languages ref. desk would be more appropriate. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:17, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Future predictions, tested empirically?

Hi there - The business of predicting the future seems to have become somewhat more respectable the last few years, and I am looking for occasions when economists, political scientists, historians etc (not quacks and astrologers) have gone on record with predictions of trends or changes in a 10-20 year timeframe, and what kind of trends there are around accuracy. ie -is there better accuracy about some areas, geopolitics, economics, environmental etc? Does accuracy decline linearly, or does it fall off rapidly past a certain point? I'm really looking for an evaluation of the efficacy of this kind of thing - ideally I'd like to look at people who made predictions in 2000, and follow up ten years later or something like that. Any ideas whether someone has done this already, or on where to start? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.106.4 (talk) 18:31, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

We have an article about this, futurology. Looie496 (talk) 18:48, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks - unfortunately it does not address the questions of efficacy that I'm asking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.106.4 (talk) 18:57, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that so many people make predictions that some of them will inevitably be right just by random chance. That means you need to be very careful how you select the predictions you include in your sample. You probably want to consider just predictions of people that are good at making predictions (we already know there are lots of people that are terrible at it, we're interested in whether it is possible to be good at it), but you need to make sure they aren't just lucky. That probably means finding someone that is consistently accurate. So, for example, you could look at all the predictions make in 1990 about 2000 and then reject everyone that was inaccurate and then look at the predictions they made in 2000 about 2010 and take an average of the accuracy of those that will give you an idea of the actual level of accuracy that is possible. Unfortunately, that is a lot of work! Also, there aren't many people that make long-term predictions repeatedly over a long period of time. --Tango (talk) 20:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

If you're thinking of psychics and whatnot, some of their highest profile predictions are kept secret. Often times in missing persons cases, psychics will offer advice on the condition that their predictions not be released unless it's successful!

That's done intentionally to prevent the sort of hit/miss tally you're trying to find. APL (talk) 00:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. thanks - that is an issue. I found at least one interesting article looking at the predictions from the Limits to Growth study 30 years ago here:http://www.csiro.au/files/files/plje.pdf - that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for, I was imagining that some of the larger futurist consulting houses might have this kind of thing, but the fact that I can't find it easily on their websites makes me think maybe they don't. There are also of course issues around specificity and accuracy when you get into it. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.106.4 (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The science fiction pioneer Hugo Gernsback in his delightfully tacky novel Ralph 124C 41+ successfully predicted in 1911 television, remote-control power transmission, the video phone, transcontinental air service, solar energy in practical use, sound movies, synthetic milk and foods, artificial cloth, voiceprinting, tape recorders, spaceflight, and gave the first accurate description of radar. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for my pair of Platinum-Barium-Arturium Eyeglasses, though. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:15, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Somewhere I recently read an account of a study (I'll have to look it up, it is somewhere nearby...) where someone tallied up a number of predictions by scientists, engineers, and futurists over the past 60 years, and the "success" rate (even with rather modest predictions) was something like 30%. Which isn't that great, though you can always pick out a few exceptional ones and say, "my god, what a genius!" and ignoring all of the false ones. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Fish on a Friday

What is the origin of eating fish on a friday, I always used to assume that this was because it was a Catholic thing and was done because it was the sabbath and that Jesus was a fisherman. However from reading the wikipedia front page article about the battle of Ohrid, and how they fed on the fish, it states that this was a tradition that was done by Byzantinian Kings. That is to say that the Byzantinin Kings ate fish on a friday. Now they were not Christians and they were not Jews either, so I am curious to gather further information concerning this, please and thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.144.75 (talk) 22:55, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The article Fasting and abstinence in the Roman Catholic Church is not exactly definitive on the fish question, but it talks about abstinence in general terms. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Pure OR here, but folklore around where I grew up in Australia was that the tradition came from Catholic Church edicts designed to commercially assist fishermen, maybe a few hundred years ago. HiLo48 (talk) 01:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

That's interesting. I never heard that one. The rule was simply that meat must not be eaten on Friday. Anything else was fair game (pun), which is a wide field of choice, but for people used to having "meat and three veg" every dinner, fish would have been the obvious replacement, being the "meat of the sea", so to speak. For families particularly, a fish meal would have been more suitable than a vegetarian concoction, given how kids are particularly fussy about which veges they will eat. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 01:52, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The kings (or emperors) of the Byzantine Empire at the time of the Battle of Ohrid certainly were christians, the remains of a very powerful and influential christian empire. Abstinence from meat on significant days probably simply slowly grew into a tradition of eating fish, although there are various legends about it, such a deal struck between a pope and the fishing industry. meltBanana 01:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC) Oops seems this battle was just after the fall of Byzantium, but it clearly means the christian emperors. meltBanana 04:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of financial considerations (which I would not at all disbelieve), there's the fact that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice on a Friday, so abstaining from meat was probably seen as a good way to honor it... as well as referencing Jesus' words about his disciples, many of whom were in the fishing business, as becoming "fishers of men." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:28, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Friday wasn't the Sabbath. Marnanel (talk) 11:55, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Right. Saturday was the Sabbath (and still is, actually) while Friday was crucifixion day. As I recall from Sunday School many years ago, some were wanting it to be over before sunset - when the Sabbath would begin. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:09, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Interestingly, if slightly off topic, Capybara meat is considered not-meat for the purposes of meatless Fridays, and consequently becomes very popular during Lent in Latin America [2]. It's a similar thing with fish: fish aren't considered meat, so they're allowed even when meat is not. Buddy431 (talk) 19:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

If the capybara population is a bit thin, is squirrel acceptable? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:00, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

No. Squirrel is a type of meat. Capybara is a type of fish. --Carnildo (talk) 00:03, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

In the same way that pigs are a type of bird, perhaps? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 08:51, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Rather an odd-looking fish. Looks more like an oversized guinea pig. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:13, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Slightly off-topic, yet interesting: The section "The Church" in our featured article on medieval cuisine. Particularly: "The trend from the 13th century onward was toward a more legalistic interpretation of fasting. Nobles were careful not to eat meat on fast days, but still dined in style; fish replaced meat, often as imitation hams and bacon; almond milk replaced animal milk as an expensive non-dairy alternative; faux eggs made from almond milk were cooked in blown-out eggshells, flavored and colored with exclusive spices." ---Sluzzelin talk 02:59, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

"Wikepedia Has An Article About Everything!" - Friday Fast tells all. Alansplodge (talk) 18:22, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

March 22

Fairies

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, creator of Sherlock Holmes, has written a serious treatise about existence of fairies. Other serious writers, Colin Wilson etc. have also written at length about them. I want to know that are there any proofs about existence of these mysterious creatures in West today ? I would like to know if any people reading my words have any firsthand experience ( or any of yours friends or relatives ). Jon Ascton  (talk) 00:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

We still have the same evidence that convinced Doyle. See Cottingley Fairies.

APL (talk) 00:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

It is a question as to how one would detect he was in the presence of a fairy. Edison (talk) 01:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if you realize how this question begs for some smart-aleck answers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:25, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

No, Bugs, the point is actually this - why there is so much fuss over something that does not exist ! I won't mind if it were something limited to kid-talk, but such great writers making such claims...

Explain how fairies and ghosts are things that "clearly" do not exist, while millions of true believers have no problem believing in angels or even a "God" and a "Devil?" Why is one "nonsense" while the other is highly respected "faith?" Edison (talk) 05:12, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

That was over a century ago. A great scientist of that era thought he saw canals on Mars, too. (Maybe they were dug by those fairies.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:32, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The Martian canals were a combination of low-quality telescope optics and a tendency for the human vision system to see straight lines in low-quality images. --Carnildo (talk) 00:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

He was delusional. He had had a dinner of capybara, mistaking it for fish. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

We have an article on Faeries. And I highly recommend an excellent short story in the New Yorker a year or two back about a Faery King and Queen and the human boy they want to keep: A Tiny Feast, Chris Adrian, April 20, 2009. WikiDao ☯ 02:32, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, WikiDao. Read the story. "...vanished even before their eyes could register them..." Well, now I know why I don't see 'em !

It's not so much the fact that an eminent novelist believed in them that fascinates me. It's the belief across Europe, at least, of mythical small creatures visible only to certain people at certain times. Pixies, faeries, goblins, dwarves, leprechauns... what is the original myth for these? Why is it so widespread? --TammyMoet (talk) 09:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

And why we never hear about them in India ?

Maybe the polytheistic nature of Hinduism circumvents any cultural "need" for these little immortal creatures in a supposedly monotheistic culture? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:46, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

In the late 19th and early 20th century, there were many very clever people who were spiritualists, Conan Doyle being one of them. For Conan Doyle, spiritualism held out an alternative to a harshly materialist world. Keep in mind that all of this is happening in the context of the late Victorian industrial revolution, of the debates about Darwinism, in the discussions of Marxism, and the professionalization of the scientific community.

In hindsight, Conan Doyle looks rather foolish. The Cottingley Fairies are obvious fakes, and looking at them today it's hard to see why anyone intelligent would have found them compelling. Consider though that photography was still a pretty new medium, and people were not as savvy about photographic fakery as they are in the age of Photoshop. And even today, there are people who are astonished to find out that people will baldly lie about things for publicity or just for fun. For Doyle in particular it is hard not to hard a large dollop of "I want to believe". And indeed, I think UFO conspiracy theories are probably our century's spiritualism — in 100 years, people will look back on all that blurry footage and say, "why did they find this compelling, exactly?" --Mr.98 (talk) 16:37, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

What would a shy, undressed woman cover first?

I'm curious as to what women instinctively cover when they find themselves undressed in front of strangers.

In certain pictures I've seen displayed in art galleries, the sitter covers her pubes with her hands. In certain others, she covers her breasts with one arm, and her pubes with the other.

But outside the art world, things seem different. In several pictures from the Holocaust (World War II) undressed prisoners are all shown covering their breasts with their hands—seemingly not concerned with others seeing their pubes. (This is alluded to, albeit fictionally, in a scene from the movie Schindler's list).

Has anybody ever conducted any kind of reliable survey of (non-exhibitionist) women? Would the typical shy woman just want to ensure that her breasts are securely covered, and not really care about who sees her pubes? Pine (talk) 00:43, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The posting of this question is discussed at the Wikipedia talk:Reference desk. Bus stop (talk) 21:54, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Read somewhere that an Arab woman, under such condition would rather cover her face ( and won't bother about breast or pubes... Jon Ascton  (talk)

I've also heard that. Never seen a survey on the subject, though. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I read this story as an anecdote about the woman in a sorority house who was leaving the shower with a towel too small to cover everything, and was surprised by a male walking through the hallway. Thinking quickly, she covered up her head in order to anonymize herself. This was several decades ago and I would have said I read this in Reader's Digest, but the average age of a Reader's Digest reader is about 300, and 300-year-olds' heads explode when reading about nudity, so it may have been somewhere else. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:00, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

This illustration[3] doesn't answer the question definitively, but it relates. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Why would a sitting woman cover her pubes? Surely they are not visible? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.187.76 (talk) 07:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Pubes (singular, two syllables) is the Latin name for the pubic area; you seem to be confusing it with the identically-spelt monosyllabic word which is the plural of the English word "pube", short for "pubic hair". Marnanel (talk) 12:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

You mean pubis. And this question should IMHO have been deleted, see the discussion here. --Viennese Waltz 12:47, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes. And yes. Two of us tried, but objections were raised, so here it sits. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:14, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Between here and the talk page, at least 4 editors (me included) agree that this section should be zapped. Or rather re-re-zapped. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:37, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I recall reading that centuries ago, some far eastern women would cover their knees. 92.15.6.157 (talk) 11:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

If the question is sincere, the OP could start with Modesty and see where it leads. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Not a complete answer by any means, but we learn from National Geographic Magazine that not all cultures require women to cover their breasts. So if there's an instinctive urge to do so, it can't be too strong. APL (talk) 14:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The person posting the question has shown a previous instance of setting up a question that probes the area of the joining of the legs of the female human. It is just my opinion but I don't think such questions have to be addressed. Bus stop (talk) 14:56, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Then don't address it. Warofdreams talk 15:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Or remove it. Isn't removing it to be considered? Bus stop (talk) 15:11, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Good detective work. It confirms the trolling. And removing it would indeed "address" (or "undress") the situation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:19, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

And here, and here. I didn't do much "detective work". I went to "Earliest contributions" for the account. These are obvious. I have to admit I learned something about the existence of that Greek holiday celebrating womanhood. That is interesting. I think English Wikipedia needs an article on Gynaikokratia. Bus stop (talk) 15:23, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with exploring subjects of a sexual nature. But I find problematic the scholarly tone when there is no hope of anything scholarly ejaculating from the topic of discussion. This question does seem acceptable to me. Bus stop (talk) 15:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the best you're going to do here is some sort of sociology text. Skimming through the The Evolution of Modesty ((I'll choose this older, and possibly obsolete, text because it's free on Project Gutenberg)) by Havelock Ellis (Check out his portrait. Guy looks intense.) it seems like the recurring theme is that ladies will instinctively cover whatever they think is getting unseemly attention. So the answer is that not only does it vary from culture to culture, but even from situation to situation. APL (talk) 01:18, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

According to cracked.com (yeah, I know: What a Reliable Source!) in the old days, a shy Chinese woman with bound feet would first cover up her scarred and gangrenous feet if a man she didn't know saw her naked. But American women today love to wear sandals so go figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.203.80.27 (talk) 21:33, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

As suggested on the talk page, the OP's basic premise, if sincere, is seriously flawed. The folks in those holocaust photos are not likely covering their chests from modesty - but from self-protectiveness, hostility, defiance, etc. or reaction to cold temperatures for that matter. Although not sourced in Body language, it's a well-known element of body language. Their folding their arms was not out of modesty, it was a reaction to their perilous situation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the information! I see now that the issue is more complicated than I first thought. (I'd also like to apologize if my WWII reference seemed cold or insensitive—that certainly was unintentional on my part.)

I'm definitely going to read the book Sex and Sex Worship (1922) as well as Ellis's The Evolution of Modesty, and see where the topic leads from there!

———"The folks in those holocaust photos are not likely covering their chests from modesty - but from self-protectiveness, hostility, defiance, etc. or reaction to cold temperatures for that matter. Although not sourced in Body language, it's a well-known element of body language. Their folding their arms was not out of modesty, it was a reaction to their perilous situation."———

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Bugs. Now honestly, was that so difficult? Pine (talk) 00:50, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Resolved

Pine—is this the sort of photo you had in mind? If so, does it look to you as though they are "…covering their breasts with their hands—seemingly not concerned with others seeing their pubes." Bus stop (talk) 01:49, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

No, not now that Baseball Bugs has cleared it up for me. (In case you missed my saying as much, it's just two posts above. BTW, this thread is now resolved, in case you missed that as well :) ). Pine (talk) 00:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Pine—you say up above, to Baseball Bugs, "…was that so difficult?" I think the problem was not so much in the difficulty of the question but rather the impropriety of it.

Let me just say that there is this related discussion on the Wikipedia talk:Reference desk if you wish to weigh in with your thoughts there. Bus stop (talk) 15:28, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Does the first world live in luxury by keeping the third world down?

After travelling overseas last year I have been troubled by the massive amount of poverty in the third world. I understand that most of the third world's problems were brought about by Western imperialist meddling in the past, but is there more to it than that? Is the fact that only about 10 or 20% of the people in the world live in really wealthy, healthy countries a coincidence, or do we keep ourselves up there by keeping others down? For example, the computer I am writing this on was probably manufactured in China by a guy working in a sweatshop for a dollar an hour. Would it be theoretically possible, economically speaking, for everybody in the world to have a first-world standard of living? 123.243.54.85 (talk) 05:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

You may be interested in World Systems Theory, as well as Fair trade. Also, consider the ecological footprint if everyone in the world started to drive as many miles as Americans currently do. Nevertheless, many people believe that it is possible to Make poverty history. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Here in Europe it is well known that the US consumes far more of its per capita share of natural resources than the rest of the world. So it would be impossible to have everyone in the world consuming the same per capita amount of resources as the US - you'd need several earths to supply it. But with more efficient technology it may be possible to raise the safety-net (or at least provide one in the first place) below which nobody should fall. 92.15.6.157 (talk) 11:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

7 billion humans already consume more than one planet's worth of resources. Even if the population stopped growing and we lived within our means, a more equitable sharing of the Earth's resources would result in a massive drop in living standards in the first world. Rather than making poverty history it would mean lowering everyone into poverty. So no, it would not be possible for everybody in the world to have a first-world standard of living, unless there were dramatically fewer of us. Astronaut (talk) 12:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

That's all right, in the rest of the world it is well known that Europe consumes far more than its per capita share of natural resources as well. I don't see any EU countries to the left of the vertical line in File:Human welfare and ecological footprint.jpg, do you? You should also be very careful in looking at tables like List of countries by energy consumption per capita. To take one example, Iceland's in second place on the list not because it is tremendously wasteful (though it is dark and cold and thinly populated, and this does have energy costs) but because of extensive natural resource extraction projects. Mining and smelting aluminum is particularly energy intensive and contributes heavily to Iceland's energy budget, even though the embodied energy in the finished product is shipped overseas. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The reason the USA and Europe consume "more than their share" of resources is because they can. As large populations such as India and China become more prosperous, their ability to consume more resources will increase, and pressure on the world's resources will become much more significant. At that point, trouble may arise. Of course, by then the Americans and Europeans who decided to build up those countries' economies will be long gone. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Poor countries are not poor because there are rich countries. If the rich countries stopped all trade and other interaction with the poor countries then almost everybody on both sides would become poorer. Many of the resources in the poor countries would not go to the poor instead of the rich. They would no longer be exploited because they wouldn't be worth exploiting without rich buyers and technology from rich countries. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:23, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

If you look at the poverty-stricken countries around the world, I expect you'll find that most of them are dictatorships or cults of personality. The more prosperous countries appear to have a system of government rather than one-man rule. The question is, Which factor drives the other? Or is it a bit of both? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

A few thoughts:

1) China is getting rich off that $1 a day an hour the workers there get paid to assemble your computer. It may not sound like much to you, but that's a dramatic improvement for many there. As time passes, wages will rise, until they no longer have a competitive advantage due to lower wages.

Average factory wages are closer to US$15 a day, plus room and board. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:13, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

2) I won't say that democracy is necessary for prosperity, but some form of stable government is, as is capitalism. China didn't qualify as capitalist under Mao, but does now.

3) For the most part, poor nations were always poor. It's not like their wealth has been stolen by Western nations, unless you consider this to include "unrealized wealth", which existed as minerals, petroleum, etc. Unfortunately, the power structure in most of those nations means that any money paid for extracting those resources goes to the ruling class and doesn't filter down to the general population. Western companies could do more, though, to ensure that at least some of the money does make it all the way down. For example, they could build and staff schools for the locals. This could be a good PR move and hopefully also prevent them from being targets of rebels dissatisfied with their treatment by these companies.

4) Well-meaning but misguided charities seem to have contributed to the economic problems of the Third World. For example, in Haiti, following their massive earthquake, charities provided food, which they brought in, for free. This has the effect of destroying the local food production and distribution channels, as nobody will pay for Haiti-grown food when they can get it for free from the charities. A better approach would have been to give vouchers to Haitians, which they could then use to "buy" food from local merchants, who would then be reimbursed in cash. StuRat (talk) 14:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Compassion sometimes overrides practical sense. The history of Haiti is a horror story. They were robbed both by empirialists and by their own "leaders", the Duvalier father-and-son team. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

It could be argued that the developed world's relative affluence is directly related to the relative poverty of the less developed world. Historically, that affluence is partly a consequence of poverty elsewhere. The affluence of Europe and the United States was originally built partly on the expropriation and enslavement of other parts of the world. The United States benefited enormously from the land and resources formerly occupied by the native American peoples, who were violently expelled and in some cases killed off. It also benefited greatly during its first century from the unpaid labor of enslaved Africans and their descendants. Europeans likewise benefited from the land, expropriated resources, and forced labor of conquered peoples in Africa and Asia. (Later Japan, for several decades, pursued a similar strategy in parts of Asia as well.) These processes contributed to the vast stock of capital that European nations and the United States accumulated. This stock of capital allowed Europe and the United States (and to a lesser extent Japan) to become the creditors of Latin America during the 19th century and of the rest of the less developed world when it gained independence in the 20th century. Right up until the last decade or so, the developed countries have enjoyed a steady stream of income from their investments in the less developed world, investments partly made possible by earlier expropriation and exploitation, and investments that generate a yield by siphoning off income from poorer countries. Meanwhile, colonial development policies and a shortage of capital in the less developed world forced many of those countries into relying on exports of resources and agricultural produce. Because five sixths of the world's population were competing to sell natural resources and crops to one sixth, this intense competition kept prices down and allowed the rich world to enjoy cheap food and industrial inputs. At the same time, those low prices kept incomes low in the poor world and made it difficult for the poor world to build up its own stock of capital, since any net income often had to be devoted to debt service. This cycle of debt dependency up until the past few years enriched the rich world at the direct cost of the poor world.

However, the world is changing. The growth of China and to a lesser extent India, along with other Asian and Latin American countries, is directly linked to a process of globalization in which firms based in the rich world have increasingly shifted capital to the developing world, in many cases reversing the trade balance, and enriching developing countries. In many of these countries, the bulk of the new money flows to a small elite, and globalization continues to rely on depressed labor costs for the much larger working classes of these countries. (These labor costs can be kept low by political repression such as in China, where the state prevents the formation of independent labor unions and violently opposes worker demands.) However, competition with the developing world is driving down relative incomes for working people in the rich world as well. As others have said, the Earth has a finite supply of resources, which is one reason why energy and commodity prices have been soaring in recent years. I think that a strong case can be made that the old world, in which exploitation had a substantial geographic dimension, is giving way to a new world in which exploitation is global and much more based on class than geography. In this new world, the lifestyle that we in the rich world have come to take for granted will likely increasingly be affordable only to those in a multinational global elite, while people who are not part of that elite will see their living standards fall to levels similar to those of Chinese workers. Marco polo (talk) 16:09, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Another way to visualize this problem, is what would happen to Third World nations if they existed alone ? In a world where Haiti was alone on a giant planet-wide ocean, would it then become rich ? I'm rather skeptical. StuRat (talk) 16:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Haiti is an interesting case. Before the arrival of Europeans, Haiti and the rest of Hispaniola were one of the most densely populated parts of the Americas. According to most Spanish accounts, its people were healthy, and although their technology was more or less neolithic, reasonably well off, in the sense that they did not seem to suffer want or famine. No doubt, life expectancies were low by our standards. There is no reason to think that this picture would have changed much if Hispaniola (or western Hispaniola) were cut off from the rest of the world. It probably would not have become rich, by our standards, but nor would its people be likely to face the kind of desperation Haitians face today. I would argue that their desperation today has everything to do with the processes I have described above. Of course, if you took present-day Haiti and isolated it from the rest of the world, you could expect dire results, but that's not an argument that its present state is unconnected to the enrichment of Europe and North America. Marco polo (talk) 17:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, the title of this Q is "Does the first world live in luxury by keeping the third world down?". That seems to ask about current economic harm done to Third World nations, not harm done in the past. StuRat (talk) 17:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Point taken. I guess the answer is, at this very moment, not so much. My point was, however, that you can't understand the relative wealth disparity without understanding the history. Marco polo (talk) 20:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, with neolithic technology, wouldn't overpopulation still be a problem, leading to war, disease, starvation, deforestation, etc., since birth control would be unknown ? StuRat (talk) 17:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Oddly enough, this seems not to have been such a problem. Neolithic populations seem to have been fairly stable. One reason was that women nursed children up until age 4 in many societies, and fertility is much suppressed in nursing women, lowering the birth rate. Another unfortunate reason for the stability of populations was infant mortality. Finally, sadly, the evidence suggests that infanticide was quite common in premodern societies. If a person felt they would have trouble feeding the baby, they might have quickly dispatched it. Intermittent warfare also kept the population down. Marco polo (talk) 20:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

It still doesn't sound like a much better life than they have now. StuRat (talk) 03:56, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Excluding the recent revolt, power vacuum, earthquake, flooding, and cholera epidemic, what desperation are you referring to? (Those things must all be excluded since they could have equally well happened hundreds of years ago, and can't be blamed on past contact with Europeans, except the cholera, but it could have been some other disease.) 213.122.28.108 (talk) 21:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Im quite sure this is not the answer u wanted, but i just wanted to share how this could happen on a smaller scale. I am from a state in Malaysian Borneo. My state is relatively poorer in terms of per capita GDP as well as having a higher poverty rate compared to the rest of Malaysia. The main and largest port in Malaysia is Port Klang, located just about 30km out of Kuala Lumpur, the capital and, by far, the largest city in Malaysia. Undoubtedly, KL is a primate city with its inhabitants enjoying higher wages and better standard of living due to economic development in the capital. For about 27 years we have a policy called the cabotage policy which permits international ships carrying imported goods to enter the country via Port Klang only. The reason for this policy is to protect the interest of local shipping businesses and also to promote Port Klang into a premier southeast asian shipping hub. (i might be wrong about the 2nd part though). Due to this policy, international ships are either not allowed to dock at any east Malaysian ports or are subject to very expensive tax (duties, levies or whatever its called). As a result, the poorer people of east Malaysia have to pay more than their more affluent counterparts in KL or other parts of west Malaysia for imported goods. IMO, this problem can be remedied by abolishing this cabotage policy, perhaps at the expense of local shipping merchants. So it all boils down to political movements by interested parties. ќמшמφטтгמ^torque 03:24, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

If you think that pre-colonial Africa/Asia/America was some kind of bucolic paradise, may I suggest some movies and books to clear up that misconception. Last of the Mohicans (the 1992 film), Apocalypto, and in the way of books, White Slaves of Maquinna and Things Fall Apart. To summarize in two words: tribal warfare. Barbarism. Human sacrifice. Cannibalism (disputed). Headhunting. Rape. Massacres. Not quite the Arcadian ideal you may envision. Vranak (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

The author of The Undercover Economist says that poor countries stay poor due to corruption. Corruption, suggests the author, has two bad effects. 1) it means donated money ends up with the rich, not into development as intended. 2) Time and money is wasted accomodating corruption, for example corrupt traffic police obtaining bribes means people prefer to travel when the roads are most crowded, etc etc.

My original research theory, based on my personal observation, is that bad organisations suppress or forbid feedback, in particular bad news. So the malfunctioning or non-working things never get put right. The worst operate within the realm of lip-service only, manipulating and rewarding people for maintaining the fiction or bubble of what those in power want to be said, including rewarding and promoting dishonest but syncophantic people (or sometimes just the deluded, misled, or complacent who believe in loyalty and kinship) to positions of power, and conversely punishing or discrediting the honest. The solution is to encourage loyalty to ethical and other standards, rather than to a person, and to have objective independent reports and MBWA to see things at first hand. As with bad organisationms, so with bad countries. 92.28.242.170 (talk) 21:44, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

"Does the first world live in luxury by keeping the third world down?" If you believe the world economy is a zero-sum game, then your answer is "Yes." If you don't, then the answer can be "No." DOR (HK) (talk) 04:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Another reason may be that the smart able people gravitate to countries with the best living conditions, and stear clear of the worst countries with all their problems. 92.15.14.4 (talk) 20:40, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

American Chemical Society Accreditation

Is Carnegie Mellon accredited, with respect to undergraduate degrees? It's not listed on the American Chemical Society website, so I'm wondering, but it is a prestigious school (so I would think it would be accredited), and such accreditation is (I think) mentioned on the Carnegie Mellon website. 202.45.54.95 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC).

Carnegie Mellon is a very well respected institution. [4] [5] should be quite sufficient. Collect (talk) 15:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Carnegie Mellon is perfectly accredited (by other agencies, but perhaps not ACS).See Council_for_Higher_Education_Accreditation, and List_of_recognized_accreditation_associations_of_higher_learning#United_States. Basically, accreditation from a field-specific academic society such as ACS is not always a feature of a well-respected institution. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

ACS acredited undergraduate degrees, IIRC (and it has been a few years) requires the institution to, among other things, teach a certain curriculum and students must pass ACS created standardized tests. I have a chemistry degree from an ACS-certified department (the University of Delaware) but there are, as noted, several well-respected departments which are not necessarily ACS accredited. This page has the requirments for a chemistry program to become ACS Approved program, as well as a list of them. I would say that, while ACS acreditation is a sign of quality, the lack of accreditation is not automatically a sign of a lack of quality. As noted, CMU is regularly cited as one of the best univeristies in the country, especially with regards to science and technology, so I can't see where a chemistry degree from CMU would be devalued merely for lacking ACS accreditation. --Jayron32 01:11, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant "Is the chemistry program accredited?". Sorry for the confusion. 202.45.54.233 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC).

I don't know if it's still the case, but when I was in school some of my classmates in organic chemistry chose to take ACS standardized exams at the end of the year. This was wholly apart from our regular curriculum, an independent effort on their part. I presume (?) that doing so successfully, for some minimum collection of required exams, would give one individual certification by the ACS when one graduated from a four-year program. Our chemistry department was not, itself, ACS accredited, as far as I know.  – OhioStandard (talk) 15:51, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

According to this page, one can either choose to graduate with an accredited B.S. or an unaccredited B.A. NW (Talk) 17:29, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, at my school they made all of the final exams the ACS-standardized tests, for wherever they were availible, so all chemistry department degrees were ACS-accredited BS degrees. --Jayron32 18:53, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is a requirement per se that the ACS standardized examinations must be used. For example, MIT's chemistry degree, which is ACS-accredited, requires the student to take 5.111, Principles of Chemical Science, what I believe is analogous to general chemistry elsewhere. As taught in Fall 2008, it used entirely instructor written exams[6]. NW (Talk) 19:12, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

MIT has a number of required courses for a Chemistry degree - it is one of the most rigorous schools for any science, and the courses exceed ACS requirements by quite a bit. Collect (talk) 13:54, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

March 23

Mobile internet

this question is moved by the original poster toe the Computer ref. desk.

birthdays

My wife and I are over 60. I was born in June on a Thur., she in July on a Sat. How is it that now, our birthdays occur on the same weekday?198.50.63.15 (talk) 02:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

This can't happen - I think there must be a mixup concerning dates somewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:15, 23 March 2011 (UTC),

I think the poster means that in 2011 (or any other year used for both birthdays) the two birthdays fall on the same weekday. This will happen whenever the number of days between them within the same year is a multiple of 7, for example June 30 and July 7, so there is a whole number of weeks between them. The weekday for a birthdate changes from year to year, because 7 doesn't divide 365 or 366. You must have been born in different years. PrimeHunter (talk) 03:05, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Oops! On second thoughts, yes it can. As PrimeHunter states, if you were born in different years, for your birthday to fall on the same day now, your birthdays must have been on the same day of the week in the year the younger of you was born. (Unless I've got it wrong again...) AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:20, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Sure, it can easily happen if they were born in different years. It would have been helpful if the OP had given the actual dates and years, then the answer would have been obvious. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:47, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I wonder whether the poster was quoting a puzzle and not actually talking about himself. By the way, we have an article about calculating the day of the week. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:29, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

He could also use this nifty website,[7] which will produce a calendar for any year. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:28, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Note that while the weekdays may have been different when they were born, the birthdays occurred on the same day of the week when (and since) the younger one was born Nil Einne (talk) 08:46, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Not sure I follow the first part of that, Nil Einne. It's only been since the birth of the younger person that there have been two birthdays to compare. But you're right: the two birthdays have always fallen on the same day of the week. It's a different day each successive year, but always the same different day for both birthdays. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 10:48, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I meant that while they may have been born on different days of the week, they have fallen on the same week day every year since the younger one was born (or if you want since there have been two birthdays as you said). In other words if the OP thinks about it, there's nothing really surprising here. Even without bringing two birthdays in to it, most people who recognise it in any way must know their birthday (or other consistent dates, anniversaries, holidays that fall on a defined date such as Christmas etc) doesn't fall on the same day of the week every year. So it follows that even if someone's birthday is the same day of the week as yours it doesn't mean you were both born on the same day of the week (unless you were born on the same year presuming your birthdays don't cross the February-March/leap day boundary). Nil Einne (talk) 20:07, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Red doors on churches

What is the significance of red doors on many churches, regardless of denomination?198.50.63.15 (talk) 02:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Someone did quite an extensive research here. There are a number of theories. The most common answer being that the color represents the blood of Christ which is the key to salvation for Christians. ќמшמφטтгמ^torque 03:00, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

...or it's a replay of the blood-smeared doorposts of the Passover. Or the blood drinking ritual. There are plenty of bloody biblical references to choose from. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:00, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Or could it be that red paint was available and cheap?Froggie34 (talk) 10:37, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

This answer is so facile it disgusts me. If you're going to take the trouble to build a church, you are going to choose the right color -- especially for the door. 10 square feet? 20? Economics are not going to be a serious concern here. Gah! Vranak (talk) 13:21, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

You assume that there is a "right color". Unless there is, I'd guess that whoever chooses the colour would pick it primarily for being cheaply available, and in line with their personal aesthetic preferences. Warofdreams talk 14:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Let's be reality. No one paints a door red for purely economic reasons. White or black or brown sure, but red? Just no. It has obvious religio-spiritual-emotional connotations. Vranak (talk) 15:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence for that supposition? Warofdreams talk 15:15, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

How about you go look at a red wall for ten seconds and see what you feel. There's your evidence. And if you can't find one, could it be because no one paints something red haphazardly, which is the original idea that I was so offended by. Vranak (talk) 15:58, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking at google images, the percentage appears to be around 20%. Around the same percentage as for house doors. Synagogue doors appear about 10% red, mosques also about 20%. The unscientific sample does show that mosques are far more likely to have yellow doors (also around 20%) but the overall impression is that church doors are not especially likely to be a given color, meaning the null hypothesis holds - that the color is pretty irrelevant. Collect (talk) 10:47, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps connected with barns often being painted red in some countries: Falu red, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010_December_16#Why_are_barns_red.3F 92.24.179.207 (talk) 14:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd be interested in another survey which took denomination (and country) into account. Some denominations are far more prone to keeping up traditions than others. Marnanel (talk) 14:41, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Popular on Episcopalian churches, due to association with England: [8], as well as Christ's blood. An Episcopal ref which mentions the red paint on barns: [9]. Episcopal red door: symbol of sanctuary, of Christ's blood, of the blood of the Passover Lamb: [10]. Again Episcopal: "If we paint the door red, people will be curious and come inside":[11]. An Episcopal church door, "red to keep the Devil out:" [12]. At the Cathedral of Notre Dame, in Victor Hugo's "The Hunchback," a red door led from the church to the cloisters: [13]. An Episcopal reference which says the door is red for the martyrdom of the Saints:[14]. There is an old joke about a visiting preacher who was mulling over what to preach on, when he noticed the church had a red door. He prepared a fine sermon about the red door tradition, the martyrdom of saints, the Blood of the Lamb, etc. Just before he was to give his fine sermon, the local church treasurer stood up and said "I'm sure you all noticed that I painted the church door red yesterday. And red it's going to stay until we raise enough offerings to make the mortgage payment. Now our guest preacher..." Edison (talk) 15:39, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Not sure about the association with England. I've visited hundreds of English churches and I can't remember seeing one that was painted at all. English oak is the usual material for church doors over here - years ago there probably wasn't much else available to make a big door with. Church doors are often decorated with elaborate iron hinge-straps and fancy knockers and handles, but oak-coloured oak is de-riguer over here on churches ancient and modern[15] [16] [17] [18] [19]. Alansplodge (talk) 17:53, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

By coincidence I walked past a red-door UK church on my way home. The paint looked new. A few days ago I noticed that another church had painted its notice-board red. It used to be some other colour. 92.28.242.170 (talk) 21:30, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Number of language translations of a book

Is there a database anywhere online which records the number a languages a book has been translated into? ќמшמφטтгמ^torque 02:54, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I very much doubt it. Publishing databases are maintained by the ISBN agency responsible for each country or region. Although these databases are combined to form an international database, each language edition has its own ISBN, and in most cases a different title and a different publisher as well, so it's almost impossible to link them. However, the original publisher will usually keep records of the allocation of foreign language rights, so the information should be on their database. If you have a particular title in mind it would be best to ask them.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:51, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, books are not required to have an ISBN or be registered in any sense. Self-published books, some small press books, older books, etc. can be ISBN-less. I've run across unauthorized translations of books as well, e.g., an online, Bulgarian translation of Barry Hughart's Bridge of Birds. This is something I've pursued as a researcher for specific titles, and so far the only way to find translations is to be stubborn and use a lot of different tools, such as OCLC's WorldCat. I usually search for everything by an author (including variants of the author's name if relevant) and browse through ALL titles listed. Even then, as large as WorldCat is, it's still an incomplete registry of what's available. Are you looking for translations of a single author or translations of a single work? Which specific author and/or which specific title? Knowing that I might be able to direct you to the appropriate available tools to answer that question. --Quartermaster (talk) 18:05, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers. Actually I am just looking for a general database for a nerdy purpose of compiling a list of books with the most number of language translations. Perhaps create a new article here, something along the lines of List of best-selling books or The 100 Most Influential Books Ever Written (book). But im not sure if its practical, useful or notable enough for wikipedia. Otherwise i'll just be using such data for personal satisfaction. Worldcat seems like the best place to find such data, so far. Goodreads doesnt seem very complete and its a wiki so it might not be very reliable. ќמшמφטтгמ^torque 03:08, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Length of the West Seattle Bridge

I a working on List of Seattle bridges and cannot find a length for the West Seattle Bridge. Any help would be great. Cptnono (talk) 04:14, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Just for a rough estimate, it looks to be about 1200 feet from shore to shore, including the span over the island. StuRat (talk) 07:24, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

The West Seattle Herald published another article about the renaming of the bridge where it says the length is 2,607ft. It doesn't seem to be on their website, but is in the Nexis database (West Seattle Bridge honors Jeanette Williams, West Seattle Herald staff, 30 October 2009). It looks to be based on wire copy from the State News Service; I can send you a copy if you need it.--Kateshortforbob _talk 12:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh my God you rock. If you have the article you can shoot it to me through my email in the tool box it would be awesome. Cptnono (talk) 08:08, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Done :) --Kateshortforbob _talk 10:46, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Tax and marriage

Hi, i just read the article Tax bracket and it seems like in the USA, married couples pay tax on their combined income that an individual making that total would pay. as a result, getting married inevitably puts you both in a higher tax bracket and makes you pay more. I always thought getting married was supposed to make you pay less, and you often even here of people getting married just to reduce taxes through some loophole. I even heard of obsurd scenarios where buisness partners try to pretend to be gay and get married in some places as a tax loophole. so how is this possible if getting married effectively cuts ur tax-exempt income in half and puts you in a higher bracket? one other question, if i did infact understand it correctly, doesnt getting married become a major tax burden that would make people AVOID getting married? whats the rational behind that anyway? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roberto75780 (talk • contribs) 07:59, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

We cannot give any tax advice here. The US tax laws have varied over the past few decades. Internal Revenue Service publication 501 for 2010 taxes says: "Married Filing Jointly: You can choose married filing jointly as your filing status if you are married and both you and your spouse agree to file a joint return. On a joint return, you report your combined income and deduct your combined allowable expenses. You can file a joint return even if one of you had no income or deductions. If you and your spouse decide to file a joint return, your tax may be lower than your combined tax for the other filing statuses. Also, your standard deduction (if you do not itemize deductions) may be higher, and you may qualify for tax benefits that do not apply to other filing statuses. If you and your spouse each have income, you may want to figure your tax both on a joint return and on separate returns (using the filing status of married filing separately). You can choose the method that gives the two of you the lower combined tax." Consult a qualified tax adviser, accountant, or tax attorney for any specific advice on your situation. Edison (talk) 15:23, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

If only one of you is working, or only one is making a substantial income, there's an obvious advantage in that you get more personal exemptions from about the same income. Having children makes for even more deductions. That might have been the original rationale. If you're both working and making good money, it can still come out better than single, but it depends. The best advice is to figure it out both ways (joint vs. separate) and see which one works out better. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:27, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, there is a fundamental conflict in combining the "business partnership" aspect of marriage with the religious aspects, by law. Thus you will get the situations you described. Marriage should be viewed as a purely social/religious affair, with no legal implications, so as to avoid the government deciding who can and can't get married. If the government then wants to grant the right to any pair of people to form a "business partnership", then they can do that. StuRat (talk) 15:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

The article Income tax in the United States doesn't really answer the question, but it has a number of links which might. Also note that certain aspects of the tax laws (capital gains, for example) are enormously advantageous to be married filing jointly. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:38, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

We actually have an article about this: Marriage penalty. Looie496 (talk) 16:38, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Our article on tax brackets does not state that married couples filing jointly in the United States pay the same tax rate as a single individual with the same income. In fact, if you look at the brackets listed, you can see that married couples are taxed at about half the rate of individuals making the same income. The so-called marriage penalty is in fact an advantage for most couples. Marco polo (talk) 19:45, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Holding up trousers

Hi all, I have these pair of trousers that are slightly too loose at the waist for me. They don't have any bits of fabric to support a belt (think jogging trousers/sweatpants) and they are not elasticated so can't be pulled in. They also can't be tailored to take in the waist as the waist part of the trouser would be ruined. As I'm writing this, I did think of braces/suspenders, but I feel I am too young to wear these haha. Any idea? Thanks! --86.174.137.130 (talk) 13:22, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Exhange them for a pair that fits, or donate them to your local thrift shop, and buy a new pair that fits. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:09, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

(EC)If you get suspenders, have the tailor or someone sew in buttons, rather than wearing the clip-on suspenders. Much cooler. What other fashion is a bit out of the ordinary, and favored by corporate executives, cartoon characters, rural geezers, mimes and clowns? Edison (talk) 15:11, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

And doctors. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:35, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Congrats, you're in fashion already: [20]. StuRat (talk) 15:23, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Some suggestions:

1) Save them for if you gain weight.

2) Wear them around the house where you won't be self-conscious if they droop a bit.

3) Sew a shirt to them at the back, so the shirt will act like suspenders.

4) Wear them with thick long underwear, and/or over another pair of pants, in winter. StuRat (talk) 15:23, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Or have the tailor add belt loops, or perhaps a cloth "channel" and a drawstring. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:24, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I wish I had your problem! Swap you for mine? 92.4.35.114 (talk) 19:18, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Two thoughts: firstly, if the waistband is fastened with a button and buttonhole then simply move the button to the correct place. Also, if it fastens with a hook and eye, or press studs, then move one part to the correct place. Another thought: if there is no waistband (a style referred to I think as "grown-on"), you could take in the side seams. Just pinch in each of the sides by about a quarter inch and sew them up. Nobody is going to notice that - who's going to look in that detail at your waist? --TammyMoet (talk) 10:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Moving the button doesn't work very well, as it makes it fasten "off-center" and causes bunching below the button. StuRat (talk) 22:33, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

If that offends your aesthetic sense, then take the side seams in! --TammyMoet (talk) 09:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that would seem to be more seemly. StuRat (talk) 09:45, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Health and safety

I have recently quit smoking and would like to start living a healthier life style. I have not run anywhere in over 10 years, my fitness level must be zero. I would like to start swimming or running as I was quite a good swimmer in my teenage years. However I do not want to go to the local public swimming pool as I probably cant even do one length without passing out from exaustion, lol. I would like to run but probably cant run to the end of the street. How can I build up my fitness level gradually from home so that when I go to the gym and swim, I dont look like a fool that cant even get to the other side without gasping for air. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.144.75 (talk) 18:56, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I am in the same position so have begun walking and cycling to build up my initial fitness and also my self esteem. Also do a few home exercises using say a Wii Fit Machine - Brilliant, and a Body Ball and Trunk Curler - quite cheap all of them. And do a bit of easy reserach on the internet and take advantage of all the free info. thereon. And then, join a club if you can afford it. You will be amazed at how far in front you are of the many other out-of-condition folk you will meet, and how friendly and supportive everyone is. Go for it and good luck. I joined 9 months ago and so far have gained 5 pounds!. 92.4.35.114 (talk) 19:25, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the best thing would be for you to start by going for daily walks as a form of exercise. Every couple of days increase the distance and/or speed of your walk. On weekends, plan a longer walk, if possible involving a hill or two. Aim to keep up a good speed. If you have a bicycle, you can alternate walks with bicycle trips. If you can walk a mile (1.6 km) at a brisk pace, you will have the ability to swim several laps at a pool, if you know how to swim. Marco polo (talk) 19:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

To address the "safety" side of your question's title, you should always consult a doctor before starting any type of exercise program. Good luck. 10draftsdeep (talk) 21:21, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's something from the NHS which says it will get you from being a couch potato to running 5km or for half an hour in nine weeks. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/c25k/Pages/get-running-with-couch-to-5k.aspx What puts me off doing it is looking silly running along, particularly at the start. I hope the link and podcasts work outside the UK. 92.24.188.210 (talk) 21:03, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

about.com has a similar 8 week programme to get you running. Those sorts of programmes work well if you're committed to doing it, reduce chances of injury or discomfort or disillusionment by doing too much too quickly, lack the 'embarrassment factor' of gyms...and are free. If you can't complete one week's goals...then repeat it the next. Good luck with it. Gwinva (talk) 00:55, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Today's British Budget

I watched the Chancellor, George Osborne, delivering his Budget today in the House of Commons. It took him about an hour to reveal the Coalition Government's revenue-raising and spending plans for the foreseeable future, including a few well-leaked tasty bits and not a few surprises, such as the fuel revenues. Immediately upon taking his seat, and following a few procedural remarks by the Deputy Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition Ed Milliband, rose to his feet and began an amazing attack on the Government, the Chancellor, the Prime Minister, the Budget, and even an ex-Chancellor, Sir Geoffrey Howe, who left office several governments and years ago. But the most amazing fact (to me) was that during his attack, he was reading from copious notes (about 21 pages of A4 carefully prepared and detailed notes) that left no doubt that he had seen a copy of the Budget document and had been given the opportunity for him and his advisors and analysts to reply and respond in the way that he did. So is it the case that the Leader(s) of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition are given access to the detail of the Government's Budget Proposals before they are delivered in the House of Commons, and thus to the electorate, so as to allow them the chance to pre-prepare such an immediate and detailed response? If so, and maybe I am being somewhat naive here, such practices are disgraceful and would clearly lead to insider information being leaked to the big players in the money markets, to the ultimate detriment of the government's tax-raising plans. 92.4.35.114 (talk) 19:14, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I cannot answer your question directly, but I can make a few points. Australia inherited the Westminster system from the UK, and it operates a Budget Lock-up on the day of the Budget, in advance of the Budget Speech, which is always delivered at 7:30 pm. Certain journos are permitted access in order to prepare their post-Budget stories for later-night TV and the next morning's newspapers. There is no access for any politicians, and particularly not for members of the opposition.

Budget leaks are not unknown, but for an opposition to be reading from prepared notes to criticise government measures he's only just heard about is not a surprising political development, and we don't need to assume any sort of leak or privileged access for that.

I don't know what it's like in the UK, but in Australia these days many features of the forthcoming budget are announced by the government in advance. By the time the Budget Speech is actually delivered, there's usually little of any headline-grabbing interest left for the Treasurer to announce - it's all detail. It's a very far cry from the celebrated incident when a UK Chancellor of the Exchequer waved a sheaf of budget papers to waiting media while on his way in to the House of Commons chamber to deliver his budget speech: even though none of the media could possibly have seen what was in the papers, the Chancellor lost his job over it, on the grounds of breaching Budget confidentiality. Boy, they were tough in those days; but they've gone way too far in the other direction these days, in my view. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:08, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

In the US it is standard procedure for legislators to be given copies of important documents before they are released. There is nothing underhand about this, it is simply recognized as the only way to allow people to respond intelligently to events. There is of course an agreement (not always respected) that the contents will not be leaked before the official event. Looie496 (talk) 20:13, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it's very unlikely Miliband was given access to the text of the budget in advance. It's a famous thing in Westminster that one of the hardest tasks faced by the Leader of the Opposition is to respond to the budget on the spot without having seen it. The notes he was reading from would have been worked up by his advisors and consisted of their responses to the most likely scenarios. --Viennese Waltz 20:23, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

That difficulty is recognised in Australia. The Leader of the Opposition gets his right of reply two nights later, when he's had time to digest the detailed contents of the Budget Papers. He will still usually criticise whatever he would have before he actually saw the papers, though. That's politics. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:31, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

If Milliband didn't have any response at all then the Shadow Chancellor would have been accused of not doing his job. Nanonic (talk) 21:55, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Presumably, having worked opposite these Conservative MPs and followed the news continuously for the last few years, Mr Milliband and his associates would have already had a reasonable idea of the direction the government was leaning in. Meanwhile, perhaps the copious amount of notes refered to simply represents answers to a range of different proposals, and he was searching through to find those that were still relevant. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 09:51, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah that's pretty much exactly what I already said above. --Viennese Waltz 10:08, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I think that if he had been following the news continuously for the last few years, he would be extraordinarily tired now, and allowances should be made.  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 10:05, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I follow the news continuously, except that I take a nap when they have fluff news or sports or traffic or tell me about upcoming shows or celebrity gossip. I get plenty of sleep. :-) StuRat (talk) 08:44, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

"Continuously, except ...". That's like saying "Except for this very long list of failings, I'm perfect".  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

March 24

What was a "martin box" ?

Hello, referents ! I see on some old (circa 1910) photos taken in some remote parts of USA  : a box (about 10x10x15 in.) standing on the top of a pole which I think may be a telephone or telegraph pole. The legend of the photo, somewhat sibylline, says that "it is a martin box". What was that box ? (WP sends back to "Martin Bax" , your archives don't know it...). Thanks a lot for your answer 90.52.66.62 (talk) 09:20, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Google tells me that these are just bird boxes for Purple Martins. There are a number of examples of the various box types on Commons and on the wider internet. Nanonic (talk) 09:37, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

(ec)This result from Google Books suggests it is a bird box of some kind. DuncanHill (talk) 09:43, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

More information here. Googling suggests that they were (or are) encouraged in order to reduce the numbers of mosquitoes, which they eat. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:44, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

What an excellent idea - if Massachusetts were free of mosquitoes it would be almost fit for human habitation! DuncanHill (talk) 09:50, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

According to our article, it is an urban myth that they eat mosquitoes. CS Miller (talk) 12:38, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

They do eat mosquitos, but not as much as advertisers of martin houses would claim. Here's reliable source of 13 interesting 'unique' things about martins: [21] , which says

" The numerous studies that have been conducted on martin diet reveal that it prefers larger, more energetically-rewarding, insects such as dragonflies, damselflies, butterflies, moths, grasshoppers, katydids, mayflies, cicadas, beetles, flies, wasps, midges, and flying ants. In most of these diet studies, not even a single mosquito was found in the martins' stomachs. But when they were found, they comprised less than 3% of the martin's diet"

Note that martins will eat many insect pest species, but also some beneficial ones. If your goal is mosquito management, there are better ways to do it. But martins can put a serious dent in the insect population of the area, which can benefit your garden, and provide much entertainment and beauty for your yard. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:53, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Anything that is pretty and eats flies, wasps, midges and flying ants is a Good Thing. DuncanHill (talk) 15:00, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

...except that they still poop. StuRat (talk) 23:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

It's good luck when a bird craps on your head. DuncanHill (talk) 10:11, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

One factor to keep in mind is the balance of nature theory. Specifically, the predators won't eradicate the prey, they'll merely keep its numbers down somewhat. If the predators eradicated the prey, they would either starve to death or move elsewhere. If you're interested in eradication, try a bug zapper. Don't try it on me though; I'm resistent to charge. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:22, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

But, to extend the theory further, anything which threatened the species with eradication would put extreme evolutionary pressure on it to adapt to survive. Thus, if bug zappers ever wiped out a significant portion of the insect population, they would learn evolve an instinct to avoid them. StuRat (talk) 00:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

To extend the theory far too much, if human intelligence threatens an insect species with extinction, they will evolve the ability to out-think us. 213.122.21.4 (talk) 00:31, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Not really. A defense need not be the same as the attack. For example, reproducing quickly is an effective defense against many attacks. StuRat (talk) 08:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Careful, StuRat - statements like that are easily misinterpreted as teleological. If something threatened a species with eradication, either it would be eradicated, or some individuals would escape. If their escape was in any way connected with some particular trait they had (as opposed to pure chance) then their escape would itself be selection for that trait, and the species would evolve. "Learning" probably does not come into the picture. --ColinFine (talk) 08:26, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, if you don't like the word "learn", we can say "evolve an instinct" instead. Change has been made. StuRat (talk) 08:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

No, not teleological but lamarkist. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:59, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

They can't really evolve something they don't have. But if some small percentage of the mosquitoes had a tendency not to be attracted to bug zappers, eventually the only mosquitoes left in the neighborhood would be the ones that tend to avoid them, thanks to the humans having inadvertently implemented Artificial Selection. (All the better for birds that like them fresh rather than fried.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:28, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

If nothing can evolve anything it doesn't already have, then I suppose you and I are both still single-celled organisms. :-)

I assume you meant that it can't quickly evolve a new trait, in which case, I agree. However, an extremely rare trait, perhaps one that only occurs due to an occasional mutation, can quickly become the majority trait, when a species is under extreme pressure. StuRat (talk) 19:38, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Certainly. True on all counts. It's in no small part, a function of the reproductive cycle's frequency. We've seen how quickly new strains of viruses and bacteria come along. Your average elephant species, though, can't evolve overnight to adapt to a radically changed environment. And your typical squirrel still has not figured out that it can't outrun a car. Insects reproduce quickly, but if they don't already have some genetic capability for some desirable trait (desirable for them, not necessarily for us), then acquiring that trait could take quite awhile. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:53, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I take your point, Bugs: introduction of natural predators is unlikely to eradicate prey. However, fair warning-- the 'balance of nature' concept is simplistic and vague at best, and often misleading or wrong, depending on the system. Note the many criticisms described in our article. In short, modern empirical findings, theoretical ecology and population dynamics find very little evidence of the 'balance of nature' (i.e. in terms of stable equilibria) that our article describes. See e.g. succession_(ecology) for a wide class of example systems that are clearly not at equilibrium. This thread is pretty far off-topic by now, so if anyone wants to further discuss 'the balance of nature', please start a new question or drop by my talk page. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:08, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

No question that "balance of nature" is simplistic. Nature is never "stable". Stability would be more like an "average" situation, for example some sort of approximate ratio between prey and predators. The practical effect of artificial selection is seen in, for example, the American deer population. A deer hunting season is not only a recreational sport, it's necessary for keeping the deer in check, thanks at least in part to humans having eradicated natural predators such as wolves. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:21, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

If humans didn't hunt them, the population would be controlled by starvation, disease, etc. StuRat (talk) 19:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

That's why they're allowed to be hunted. In effect, humans have replaced the natural predators. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Hair Dryer power

While shopping for a new one recently, I noticed that all models among all manufacturers have the same power rating: 1875 watts. Is there something magical about that figure? I looked at about 20 different models in a variety of stores, and found no model with higher or lower wattage. Hemoroid Agastordoff (talk) 17:49, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

1875 watts is (near enough) 15 amps at 125 volts; in other words, it's the maximum current that the hair dryer can draw on an ordinary household circuit with a 15-amp circuit breaker or fuse. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

But what about the UK where we have 240 volts and 13 Amp Fuses on most of our appliances (except lower wattage ones of course)? Hence I can use a 3 Kilowatt heater with no danger. 92.4.46.33 (talk) 20:24, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

The OP doesn't live in the UK? No one said 1875W hair dryers were the norm in the UK. Nil Einne (talk) 20:28, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

The original poster identifies himself as living in the United States on his user page (I checked before I replied), so I used values appropriate for U.S. household wiring. As the IP notes, household appliances in the UK can draw more power from standard outlets; among other things, the UK consequently enjoys faster-boiling electric kettles. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Overpowered hair dryers get lawsuits from people without common sense. 3Kw would fry your head fairly quickly. Collect (talk) 20:57, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Mediums and Psychics

Why are these con artists not prosecuted for taking money off people under false pretences? Mo ainm~Talk 23:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

The usual justification is that they are "just entertainment", and not presenting themselves as really knowing the future. At least that's what they claim when the authorities come for a look. StuRat (talk) 23:20, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I've never been to see one but is that what they claim it is for entertainment? Mo ainm~Talk 23:24, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I've been very entertained by them. I am sure there are people who take them all seriously, but there are people who take all conspiracy theories seriously, too. Bielle (talk) 23:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Sure, like with professional wrestling and with newspaper horoscopes, which are both humbugs also. Or weather forecasters. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:30, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I have seen ads for their "services" and never a disclaimer that it is just for entertainment. Mo ainm~Talk 23:37, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Even true believer Hans Holzer once displayed a well-done sense of humor by admitting that, "Good mediums are rare." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

In the UK all TV and theatre shows purporting to show 'real' mediums or psychics doing their thing will have a disclaimer to avoid prosecution. This stems from the Fraudulent Mediums Act 1951 (which incidentally repealed the Witchcraft Act). Nanonic (talk) 00:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

...and was (as the link tells) itself repealed in 2008. Under the applicable EU consumer protection legislation, a purported witch is exonerated if she demonstrates that she really can fly a broomstick. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:40, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

_{Oh please. Why use the Ref Desk to display your ignorance?} --TammyMoet (talk) 12:58, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I dated a witch once. She turned me into a newt! :( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:20, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

That's clearly a trap. EU has no provisions for unlicensed ultra-light aircraft like USA does. The witch would obviously be nabbed for flying without proper license and registration. APL (talk) 18:11, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course, any midget fortune tellers who have been prosecuted and escaped would become "Small mediums at large" Worm^TT · (talk) 13:54, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

And the boy gets a cigar! :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:21, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

See Cassadaga, Florida Collect (talk) 14:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about your date Bugs, I hope the spell wears off real soon. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 16:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I eventually got better. And I got revenge. She failed the duck test. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:54, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

As I see it, and I'm no believer in these things, that a lot of people go to mediums and psychics to feel better (that their dead parent doesn't hate them, for example, or that nothing bad is going to happen in the future). In this regard, they are quite successful, and not at all frauds. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:39, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

But what happens when something bad does inevitably happen to them down the track? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:08, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

That's where this rather unsettling Chinese fortune cookie item comes in: "A psychic will lead detectives to your grave." :( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

They find excuses for it, and probably don't feel any worse, in fact, they probably turn to their trusty medium or physic in this time of need. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 19:23, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

March 25

Which country offers the easiest scholarships

I would like to study abroad that's why —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.79.129.82 (talk) 01:39, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

For understanding "abroad" here, the OP is located in the USA. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:30, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The US Army and Navy have study programs, though their visits abroad are not exactly holidays. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 09:30, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

By "easiest", do you mean least work, or least academically challenging ? StuRat (talk) 09:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I would reccomend a place where at least you are fluent in their language, which might narrow the list down a little. 148.197.120.206 (talk) 11:24, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

You should look for U.S. universities with strong "study abroad" or student exchange programs. The University of Delaware, where I went to school, has one of the oldest and most extensive study abroad programs in the United States, there are literally dozens of groups placed in univeristies around the world at any one time, either during regular school semesters or during the University's summer or winter break. My wife did one in Bayreuth over a winter one year, and it was easily one of her best experiences in college. Many UD students will, if they can afford it, do multiple study abroad sessions over their college careers; while many of the programs are focused on the language and culture of the place where they are located (my wife, a German minor, studied german literature while in Bayreuth), there are many others which have science and technology, or social science, or just about any focus you want. There are many other colleges and universities which offer similar programs; check around and do some research; I am only really familiar with the UD one, but you can likely find many others. --Jayron32 17:18, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Both. The least work and least academically challenging —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.183.42.24 (talk) 19:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

At what level do you wish to study? Do you want to study for a degree? Or something less advanced? --Tango (talk) 19:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

A Masters degree  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.183.42.24 (talk) 20:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC) 

Don Pedro

We do not seem to haave an article on Don Pedro, a dessert drink that I often have ion South Africa, it is made from ice cream and liqure of some sort I would like to know how to make these and any other info, please help. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.89.16.154 (talk) 16:09, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Typing "South African Don Pedro recipe" into Google gets you like 100 hits. See here: [22]. --Jayron32 17:10, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Lavender oil and hydrosol

I've given up, I've scoured the internet and I can't really find the answer to this. Even going through conversions to try and get pounds to gallons... (nope) I've been doing research on how lavender is distilled, and I'm trying to figure out how much of both oil and hydrosol I would produce if, say, I started with one hundred pounds of prepared flowers. The best hint I can find is 3ml of oil from 1.5l of hydrosol - how accurate is this as a benchmark? Lady BlahDeBlah (talk) 18:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The article on lavender (lavande: [23]) in the French wikipedia has some figures. The percentage of oil obtained varies from 1.8% to 0.2% depending on the species of lavender used. There's a more complete table in this article: [24] --Xuxl (talk) 20:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)